4.1 Conversation with Jean-Christophe Ammann

Frankfurt, 4 October 2004 sophie richard As Director of Kunstmuseum Lucerne, which galleries have you worked with in Switzerland and Europe? jean-christophe ammann Leo Castelli, New York; Gian Enzo Sperone, Turin; Art & Project, Amsterdam; Ileana Sonnabend, Paris; Annemarie & Gianfranco Verna, Zurich; Elisabeth Kaufmann, Zurich; Toni Gerber, Bern; Konrad Fischer, Düsseldorf. sr In the 1970s Kunstmuseum Lucerne included a lot of Conceptual artists (Buren, Gilbert & George, Darboven, Art & Language) in its exhibition programme. How did that come about? j-ca When I was appointed to the Kunstmuseum Lucerne in the autumn of 1968, I visited Leo Castelli in New York, a man I greatly admired, and told him what exhibitions I had planned, and at the same time asked him for financial support because funds were tight. That’s how we ended up doing this series, as well as the first major retrospective of Joseph Kosuth. The shows with Anselmo, Art & Language, Boetti, Buren, Barry, Darboven and Dibbets were held in a small space. (Joseph Beuys had shown his Clock-room in the same space in 1969). Gilbert & George had a big exhibition with the paintings With us in Nature. They both also spent a week in Lucerne and performed Underneath the Arches every afternoon for five hours. The little exhibitions came to an end in 1972–73, with the recession. Some of the exhibitions were small, but always accompanied by a catalogue. sr In the 1970s the museum in Lucerne bought hardly any works by Conceptual artists. According to my research, only two works by Darboven and one by Gilbert & George entered the collection between 1970 and 1980. These three were gifts from the artists. How do you explain that? Was Conceptual art already too expensive, or was the museum’s budget too small? j-ca We had no money. Darboven gave us her work. Nothing by Gilbert & George came into the museum. Zorio and Penone gave us outstanding works. Just imagine, our purchasing budget before the end of 1977 was 16,000 SFr! sr What do you think of the idea of a progressive European microcosm leading to the recognition of Conceptual art in the 1970s? Which European galleries and museums were in your view the most committed to Conceptual art in the 1970s? j-ca The influence of American art in Europe came to an end in 1973. When Conceptual art spilled over from the usa to Europe, that was the last stylistic trend in the twentieth century. (Buren, Toroni, Mosset, Parmentier saw themselves as painters.) Conceptual art was essentially an Anglo-Saxon trend in art. In the mid1970s a particular direction in art, music and theatre came to an end. I’m referring to the historical avantgardes. But at that time there was no longer an array of styles. Each artist had to work out for himself where to find back and front, left and right. I think all the openminded museums throughout Europe were committed to Conceptual art.