In conversation with DARREN FARRELL RAHUL PATEL KENNETH WILDER
Decolonising the Design Curriculum How can we change the impact of colonialism on the education of Spatial Design?
“INTERVIEWS”
AMI FALL
Appendix 2 Interview 1: AMI FALL DARREN FARRELL
So, who would you say are your favourite artists, architects and designers?
I'll start from the beginning.
I in the first place was interested in Egyptian, Greek, Roman and African mythologies. So that included the stories and also, the characters. A lot of that was about engaging in fantasy worlds because I was never, I was never a sportive child... Or anything like that. Even... Despite this(!) [Gestures to himself] I wouldn't say I was always very interested in drawing, writing and storytelling and... things like that. And trying to understand the world in structural terms, but transposing mythologies because mythology is basically an allegory for real life, right? I got into drawing and creative things through my aunt, who when I was about 4 or 5, she drew an amazing picture of a Ford Cortina, which was the best cheap fast car at the time. Yeah, I felt that was the most amazing thing ever. And that was what started me drawing. So, at school and we're talking infant level - I would pour myself into anything creative. So that was English Language and Literature. Fine Arts. Graphics... Craft design and technology. Metalwork. Woodwork. All those kinds of things. Cause they used to teach those in the schools back home. Because when I was a child, the biggest drive in this country was to push art and design because they knew that the creative industries were going to be the biggest industries going. So, I mean if I had been a child now, I probably would have poured myself into the Sciences. That's what's being pushed at the moment. Favourite artist, architect, whatever - early, would have been obviously the mythological stuff. So the Egyptian, Greek, Roman. That kind of thing. And then also later, A-Level period. I was really interested in... uh. This is really embarrassing! [laughs]. I was interested in Art Deco and Nouveau.
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I had the same phase actually
And also because of the fact that she was painting mythologies
with the interest in Art Deco
and biblical situations - biblical stories because I grew up in
and Nouveau. That was
the church. So, when I read the stories about the work, I
when I first knew that I
thought "Okay, I can identify with that because you know,
wanted to study Interior and
that's Christian."
Spatial Design.
So, the ancient stories painted in that kind of art deco and
baroque style. Really amazing stuff.
Yes, so particularly
Tamara De Lempicka. Have
[Looking at De Lempicka's work] I love this!
you heard of her?
I haven’t actually.
was very into Josephine Baker and I decided to paint a portrait
of [her] which was a copy of a photograph of her. I can't
You will probably
also, another reason why I got into her was because I
recognise her work. It's kind
remember the name of the photographer... And I painted it in
of Art Deco painting. It's
the style [of De Lempicka].
partly futurist, and it touches
Also, Le Corbusier but I didn't know it. I was always drawing
on Baroque, so it's kind of a
Corbusier style of buildings.
cross between art deco and
You know when you're when you're young, and you're into
baroque, painting, Fine Art.
something but you don't know why…
The finish of the work is like
Yeah. Yeah.
Pre-Raphaelite, so absolutely
seamless, flawless materials
didn't read enough(!) [laughs] And the other one was Hector
and skin and organisms and
Guimard. Have you heard of him?
so on.
Metropolitain? [Architecture of the Paris Métro]
And she was interesting for
her time because she was
Béranger and his proposal of his project for Abbesses Métro...
basically a woman... Painting
Absolutely amazing. They've all been torn down, because they
in 1920s amongst Picasso
fell into disrepair. Amazing if you can find the photographs.
and all these kind of people...
Absolutely gorgeous.
In Paris. And she couldn't
Anyway, so I fell in love with that kind of stuff.
exhibit anywhere so she had
Later on, it kind of changed, and changed and changed so
to start her own gallery, her
later on when I was studying Interiors, Herzog & de Meuron
own studio and the whole
because of the use of materials and the play at light...
studio was painted grey. And
But it changes all the time.
Yeah? So it's was kind of like um. Well - Because I
Yeah. If you look at some of his houses like Castel
she had this whole idea about how work should be produced, what it was about, and I was particularly attracted to her work because of the style.
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That all sounds a lot like me actually. Yeah. Wonder why(!) [Briefly talks about own experience in school, preferred subjects, finding numbers & equations in mathematics hard the juggling of musical instruments rather frustrating at times.]
But that's because of the teaching style. That's something you learn
when you become a lecturer. How much the way you teach and the way you are affects the people you work with. It's a really big deal and it's really hard to get right. Because you're not a robot. If you were a robot you wouldn't be doing a job anyway. That's true.
It's a fine balance between being human and being a tutor... a
conveyor of information and research and ideas... Helping people to mold the ideas they have. How did you develop your style?
My way of working, and where did I get it from?
Exactly.
I got it from everyone who's ever taught me. All the things
I've ever read about practitioners. The interesting thing [about books] is that when you've got a book, it presents the idea in its entirety. But in between you will have peppered moments of very personal moments from that architect or designer or interior design or whoever, fine artists. And that will provide you with the context of why they do what they do. And that's why until you read the whole chapter and that one sentence... and then understand the whole chapter because of that one sentence - The book is kind of just a book. It remains that reason why you didn't read it. So you have to kind of go past that point of no return and read it. The whole bit.
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So that you get that inspiration. For
Even though they carried with them the racism the
me that's where the inspiration comes.
internalised racism those parents, they were the first
Because otherwise, it's boring. So I
generation that were socially educated enough to
think the biggest task in lecturing is
understand an ideal which meant that when they
finding a way to enable people to get
were teaching a young child like me, they knew what
to that point without realising it.
to do and how to behave. And how to treat me. So I
Because once that happens people
was very lucky to have teachers who cared.
they don't need you anymore. And
So, people who influenced me were my teachers.
that's wonderful, because you've done
Some very interesting people from really different
your job and can go onto a higher
places. My teachers were from all over the world.
level of teaching.
French, Spanish, Tongan. People from everywhere.
But very depressing at the same time.
I think the fact that they were from lots of different
But yes. So that's why I say the people
places really helped me because Barnet is not the
who influenced me the most were
most progressive place in London politically.
people who taught me. Big time.
When I was a kid, it was a BNP National Front
A good teacher teaches you
stronghold. So, we used to get chased, down the
more than the subject, in my
streets by fascists so School in some ways was not a
opinion.
nice places, because it was full of fairly racist people.
I agree.
But the teaching team were not racist, on the whole.
To be honest I think I've been
[I continued to share my own very similar school tales
really lucky because I'm a working-
with Darren. I spoke of the shared experience of
class Londoner.
going to school in Hertfordshire, experiencing racism
Second generation African
in these schools, and understanding why there are
Caribbean. So that brings with it the
such issues in London and even more so, outside of
propensity for a certain outcome.
London.]
I think my generation was the first
generation where racism was kind of
this in terms of black or white because as far as I'm
working its way away. It seems to be
concerned my position is that those terms are
coming back now, but anyway.
political. I am a human being from the planet Earth
You have a whole group of people -
of African - Recently African - Descent. Recently
the generation above me - who were
African descent.
the children of people who
I am black as well. I could be white.
experienced dreadful atrocities at the
Because they're political positions.
war.
Have you read Kehinde Andrews’ "The Psychosis of
So they had certain ideals.
Whiteness�?
I'm trying to be very careful not to discuss
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So I want to ask you, why do you think people campaigning and advocating for the decolonising curriculum, now more than ever? You know the saying, "Strike while the iron is hot"? I think it's that. Because racism and other forms of discrimination are always on the table. In my opinion, they are simply derivatives of human value judgement system. That's the problem, because people are lazy and to survive, we have to pick one thing over another. But the problem arises when people do not have enough information to pick one thing over another. When we are inexperienced, ignorant and our frame of reference is incredibly limited, that's what racism is for me. So, The reason I think the subject of decolonisation of the curriculum is on the table is because we do need to strike while the iron is hot. Because those subjects are in our face right now. It's also because of the information revolution. You guys are the first generation really, to take that on; to have it from birth. The way information is exchanged is completely different now. That's what's on the table. It's necessary to put things in place to make sure that people are catered for. If we're going to be in a situation where in twenty-five years or so, most people in this country will not be from this country. That means that perhaps we at the very least need to and we need to address what we teach, how we teach it and who is relevant to. If this problem of racism is going to go away, it is not going to do it by itself. One of those ways is to teach ourselves different things and learn new things. Learn that Architecture and Interiors is not a European thing. It's a human thing. Most humans on the planet are not European. Most people being taught for example in this university, which is one of the most successful art and design institutions on the planet are from Asia. The basic idea is that if people being taught are from everywhere, then ideas from everywhere should be taught. You cannot invite a customer into your shop and tell them that they are worth less. Or worthless.
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
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Western architecture comes from The Middle East, from Africa and all kinds if you trace
the line of discourse. Many, many techniques come from a certain place. It doesn't start with ancient Athens, it starts way before that. That's why we've got decolonising the arts curriculum, because we need to think about what we teach and not be so insular and think that the Western canon is going to dominate forever. It will be important because it's dominated a certain section of human history for 500, 600 years. But then that's only a small part of human history. We don't know what we're going to find out as well. There will be things uncovered in the next 100 to 200 years that will completely change our outlook on what it is to be even human.
I’m interested if you believe that spatial designers of colour have just the same opportunities in terms of jobs, internships, career development - in comparison to their white counterparts? How do you feel about this?
Yes and no.
Yes, because the jobs are there. No, because there are people and forces at work that mean that certain opportunities will not be available. It's a fact. When I got my first job in an architectural practice, and I walked in wearing jeans, a jumper and trainers. Everybody else in there was wearing that. I walked up to the architects and introduced myself. The architect said,
"Oh. So what are you wearing?"
I replied,
"Sorry. Should I wear something else next time?"
[Darren explains that he went home to get changed into a black suit, white shirt and black tie to return to the office in formal attire.]
"I didn't expect you to come back here looking like a drug dealer.”
No way… [I was speechless at this moment. It was something that gave me a pit in my stomach, that I didn’t quite know how to respond to.]
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We ended up getting on well though, because he really was clear! He was always very clear. There was one time I went to work and he couldn't find someone to do a meeting. He was fine with me on the phone but he didn't want to take me to meetings. There was no one else to do meetings, so I said "I'll do the meetings. No problem. He says "Darren. The client's South African". So I just said, "are they black or white?" And he didn't know. He didn't know. He just presumed that they were white because he was employed by them. He denied me the opportunity to go to a meeting and get that skill under my belt. When it comes to young people of colour getting jobs in the industry, I say yes they can, but they'll have to work bloody hard, much harder. Not twice, not three times, maybe four times harder. The way things go are, "Why 'should' I hire you?" - Not "Why 'could' I hire you?". 'Why should I hire you when I've got 5, 10 white applicants ready. I can take them to any meeting and no one's going to wonder what's going on at my company.'
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Exactly.
No one's going to question their expertise. No one's going to question whether they know
how to behave. No one's going to question them at all. "How much better are you than them, to compel me to employ you?", "What do you look like?", "What do they look like?", "Is the face going to fit?". "What are you selling that's better than these other people?", "These other people are like me.". "I don't know what you are". I think those things are at play. But at the same time, I say yes we can get jobs. But we need to be mindful of [them]. Would you say that ultimately, the mis or underrepresentation of people of colour in universities essentially frame the briefs and curricula?
Wow. You're actually asking me that!
I really don't want this to seem like I'm really negative towards the uni.
No you're not negative. The question isn't negative - It's challenging.
Yeah it is. I'm not entirely sure how I would answer it myself right now.
This is my somewhat diplomatic answer.
In a way, I think we have to remember that there are two things at play in the framing of curriculum. And they come from both ends. One end is the lecturer, who writes the project brief and the other end is the government, The RIBA, The ARB (Architects Registration Board. People like that. And then you got all this stuff in the middle.
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The government and HEFCE (Higher Education Funding Council for England) set a series of benchmarks. Benchmarks are the things that people are supposed to learn. And they are the people who sets in stone what people are supposed to learn at different levels. Then they set what people are supposed to learn at different levels, in different subjects. When you get to architecture & interiors and art & design, they start consulting with other agencies and organisations such as The Arts Council, The Crafts Council, etc. and they work together with these people to work out exactly what you're supposed to learn to what level, at what level. They need to approach the subject structurally and objectively structurally as well subjectively. ILO's (Intended Learning Outcomes) are made up of things that the student is supposed to learn.
There's a big world out there. But the world out there that we know - here - is Europe so of course, you would be flooded by the European canon. A canon of information that is well known - seminal works. Core works e.g. Le Corbusier, Walter Gropius etc. because they are pioneers in modernism and that is part of a tradition. So when we are in Europe and you have the subject we're involved in - architecture interiors, there's a question about what you know what are you going to learn and how are you going to frame this learning. What do we have around us?
Everything and everything around us is from Europe. But all these things that are around us from Europe, have all been influenced by everything that is from elsewhere. So when we talk about framing the curriculum, I think it's more about being honest about where these ideas come from and what has influenced them. What started modernism? Why people why do people decide, 'OK. We have to do it like this.', 'We have to do good things in a functional manner.',' We have to look at the essence of things'.
Where do these ideas come from? When you look at Picasso and Braque and these kinds early Modernist Cubist [artists] coming up with ideas of primitivism; Looking at Ancient African Art and making a judgment about what it is, essentially appropriating in some way, good and bad. I think it's necessary to be honest about where these ideas come from be honest that we are all players in this game.
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So to go back to your question, "Does Mis or underrepresentation of uh people of colour in universities frame the briefs and curricula... In a way, yes. Because people are human and they've got jobs to do and degrees to get there, and in that process, certain things are left out.
I guess it's also an issue of educating
That's why it's important for me to take
educators as well as students.
you all, when I do Design Practice for
Acknowledging and confronting topics of
example - 2nd Year students - is take
discussion that people might not necessarily
you all to the Steven Lawrence Centre,
even know how to confront.
David Adjaye's building, or take you all
to see a Zaha [Hadid] building; take
Also, who do you confronted it
with?
you to The Exhibition Quarter by
I guess everybody can benefit from that.
Amanda Levete Architects. Expose you
Everybody can learn something.
guys to black architects, Chinese
architects, Japanese architects, Spanish
When we talk about framing, that's
the reason why I mentioned the
architects, female architects. Artists and
architectural and interiors canon. If you
designers of colour, difference, various
have certain people who are responsible.
backgrounds and walks of life.
Contemporary Architecture such as Gropius, Mies Van Der Rohe, Le
The full spectrum of humanity
Corbusier and so on; you've got to be 100,
should be included, because the
200 times better. To say, "I'm going to teach
bottom line is, if design is about
this, not that". I mean that would be silly.
tools for living, then it makes
But, that's why I say the issue of framing is
sense to explore the full
really the core of the question for me
spectrum of human living.
because how do you frame Decolonisation [in Design Practice]?
Then you come up with the best
What I think needs to happen is the
ideas, by not focusing on just one
dissemination of the idea. You plant the
continent.
idea on the table for the students to digest... And the idea is that not only Westerners are involved in the production of culture. That's it. That's it! That's it.
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It's just so interesting to learn about more people, there's really no disadvantage of that.
That's the thing. That is the crunch thing. Because of our cultural programming
here, we are taught to think that one thing is better than another. There's no bad end in to investigating the full spectrum of possibilities. That's what design is about. Synthesis.
So now that we've talked about what we could to, what do you think the positive impacts are of decolonising the curriculum, where you could imagine that we're sitting in a lecture or doing end of year shows. What do you think. Would be the positive impacts that could come from rethinking things like our reading lists and our information spaces?
The process of impact would be that students would realise that they are part of it
already. The good thing about engaging in the processes of decolonisation of curricula is that you get better results from students. We need to understand that everyone is important and that all our experiences are important. We are here in our "univers"-ity, to exchange ideas about the universe!
Exactly. What do you think should be done to alleviate the issue of leaving things out of the curriculum?
We need to we need to take on a broader range of students from different
backgrounds and a broader range of staff from different backgrounds. There needs to be a series of initiatives run from top-down and bottom-up that address the issue of under and mis-representation. But this I think this goes across the board. There are all kinds of colonisation, some are not about race. Gay & Lesbian issues, Trans issues, issues of disability, neurodiversity issues. All of those things.
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Appendix 3 Interview 2: AMI FALL RAHUL PATEL
Who or what would you say has framed your career, creatively? Who have you identified or framed in your thinking, or have taken inspiration from as you've progressed through the years?
I think rather than looking at any particular designers, architects etc., I think I'm more
akin to movement. So, in a kind of weird sort of way, the Brutalist movement has played a big part in me partly because I lived through it that - that these buildings had been built around me and then they were condemned by another group of architects unnecessarily. But they were condemned because they just didn't like them aesthetically. Those kinds of people who were attacking brutalist architecture were inclined to particular movement, I would say a colonial movement; a heritage movement. Anyone who explored ideas within this were not seemed to be worthy, and I thought that the various groups of people were really, really worthy of what's taking place. I'm really influenced by the Russian Revolution, and constructivists who came out of it, the model of ideas that came out of it, the collective, the communal process of what it meant. And I think that Zaha Hadid was a fantastic example of what happened, but obviously like any architect, it's devolved into capitalism, and now the pinnacle of hers is the second airport at Beijing. But her ideas of flows, her ideas of movement, ideas of integrating people from different cultural backgrounds played a key role in terms in terms of looking at what's taking place. And I also respect black architecture there's so many of them but they're kind of not valued in the general system - what's taking place now. David Adjaye is one, I mean there's so many so many so many.
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So, I think that's my way of kind of
In regards the past few weeks, you and I
looking at it. I'll look at it in a way
have been talking about the curriculum.
of movement. My background is:
Wo u l d y o u s a y t h a t t h e m i s o r
I'm an exhibition designer. I'm a
underrepresentation of people in colour in
c u r at o r. I ' m a c u l t u r a l a n d
schools and universities frame the briefs and
contemporary art cultural theorist
curricula?
and so I'll be looking at that. But I
mean, you know one of the things
key elements and they work together right.
in terms of designing space, is also
One is that the staff will write the
what the space is used for. I think
curriculum, will play a part in the
how that space is used for cultural
curriculum through teaching and bring their
i n t e r ve n t i o n s i n t o ex p l o r i n g
knowledge systems in there.
historical narratives plays a key role
And architecture is super, super, Ăźber
in how archives have developed and
white. In every shape possible. And
how knowledge systems are
what is celebrated is a particular
developed. I think for me one of the
European narrative. Of course, there
most important exhibitions recently
was internationalism that went to America
was Soul of a Nation. That included
as well. I think that relationship to people
people who were fighting the black
who want to be involved in an architecture -
power movement. The graphics, the
those people from what is talked about as
spatial use, the photographs that
"diverse backgrounds" - there's a limitation
they brought to the fashion they
of acknowledgement in that. Why would
brought out - the totality of what
you come and be want to be part of a
they brought out and how that has
program which doesn't relate to,
never kind of been acknowledged.
One: your lived experience. Secondly
And I thought that exhibition was
yo u r k n o w l e d ge. Th i rd l y yo u r
fantastic.
understanding of how the world
Absolutely. I think there are three
works. I think that who writes a curriculum is an important position in terms of how that's reflected in arts education.
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In response to this, how do you see the demographics in the staff body at this university?
Extremely underrepresented. If you compare
the student numbers, that is absolutely not reflected in the staffing numbers. Okay so that's one obvious process, but the student numbers are well underrepresented in terms of what takes place in the outside world. So here, we are looking at narrowing in terms of what's taking place. I want to add something else. Of course, representation is important, but I also think we can't assume that its's just by having black faces in high places. Because actually, not all black people think the same. There are divergent views within that, and I don't necessarily think that those divergent views are contested... And some people accept the norm. And so, I think that there is a different notion in terms of what's taking place. I would say I come from a very radical revolutionary background and therefore which is fairly unusual, even amongst those of colour. To move forward, we can think about positive impacts that would come of decolonising the curriculum. So what do you think those positive impacts could be from rethinking the reading list and curriculum in general and the information spaces?
That will play a critical role, there's no question
about that. That has to be gone through systematically, and I think that there are some emerging innovative processes taking place at this university, except they are not the norm. The zine [Decolonising the Arts Curriculum: Perspectives on Higher Education] I had in collaboration with other people who produced, is as a valuable start with both student and staff collaborating.
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There are a huge number of collections within this university like the African-Caribbean, Asian, and African Art in Britain Archive, which is still not being utilised - but research has taken place about who's ever heard of a black artist, which is not being disseminated in this university. It is a pioneering piece of research and work. So, of course there are deep roots and some flowerings, but that is not universal in terms of what's taking place. So, you know, I think we're at the start, but also, I also want to say there isn't resistance - deep resistance from staff. I think it's the problem of not knowing how to do it. They're stuck in a way, and they just don't know how to get around it. And so that's one thing. The second thing is - even among students, they want to see change and I think that people need to acknowledge that. So yes. within this institution, UAL, there's no question about it. They want to see change. From the top and from the bottom. I would say the middle want to, but they don't know how to do it because they've been practiced for so many years in one particular method and systems have been put into place which only work in the way they've been set up. So, it's like an upheaval. There are other larger issues as well. A lot of the staff at this universities are ALs. They're not permanent members of staff, so they are called in, they do a session and they leave. And they're not constantly involved in the day to day operations of what's taking place. There's other issues as well. There needs to be a dialogic approach to teaching as well. Conversations are important. Right. And conversations don't take place because time is not made within the curriculum for this kind of processes to take place. So, these are the other kind of issues, but they're not unsolvable. They are severable. And we have of think in in those kinds of ways. I'll give you one statistic, which is this: I teach on MA Culture, Curation & Criticism. Two years ago, 2018 - The course cohort was 10% white British, 60% EU. They were all white, and 30% percent international students. One student from India, predominantly the rest from East Asia, from China and different parts of that diaspora. And the first thing they said at the course committee is "Why are we just looking at North American and Northern European artists?" The second thing they said is "Where are the black tutors?". Thirdly they said "Where are the Black students?" by 'Black' I mean 'political black', not people of colour in general. This shows that there is a demand for that. An institution like UAL needs to look at its fantastic collections, resources and exploit them for the benefit for the good of all the students.
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Absolutely. In a few words, why do you think people are campaigning and advocating for decolonising the curriculum now, more than before, more than ever?
It's come about because the students themselves have given an input as to do that. The
movement from South Africa was a colossal movement. The film 'Everything Must Fall' gives you are really fantastic feel of what's taken place. The students themselves said that we can't continue the way we have been continuing. I think people want to see a change in the world and the knowledge systems that are created, that are relevant to their artistic practices and they've found that what's being taught is redundant. I think that students of colour, or at least I personally - often worry "will I get the same job opportunities after university."
Well I mean quite clearly, society is structured, where those from a minority background
are not seen as worthy of particular jobs However I offer hope in terms of this university - I can't speak for other institutions - where they have made special efforts to recruit uh staff of colour. There's a scheme called Teaching Within, where they take in 20 academics every year from that background and then they are put through a postgraduate teaching program and then given the necessary hours. Over the last year the percentage of those of colour working in the university has increased, but it hasn't increased even to the student level - but it's increased. It's a slow process. I'm not happy with that slow process, but quite clearly - Tell you what - It's not happening anywhere else in the UK. I think the experience here is a template for everything else around the UK.
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I think so too.
So, there is hope. There is potential. But it
I also want to know if you believe that
hasn't happened. But I think Decolonisation is
spatial designers specifically of colour have
not just about reading lists and things like that.
just same opportunities in terms of
It's about actually how the system of knowledge
internships, jobs and career development in
is derived and then understanding of that, I
comparison to other students and
think will help break what is seen as a monolith
designers.
within spatial design and open it up for those
people of colour.
I think I'll be honest with you. I
think there's huge resistance from the hierarchy.
Thank you.
I mean the professional organisation the
architects organisation. RIBA, people like
Rahul Patel and I'm a staff member at
that. And I think that permeates across
University of the Arts London.
Thank you, very much. My name is
architectural schools and spatial schools et cetera. I think in this place there is a paradigm to shift it. But I don't know how they think they can do it. There's a will. But there is a difficulty of understanding of how to do it, and I think that needs to be broken that needs to be broken for that kind of shift to take place.
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Appendix 4 Interview 3: AMI FALL KENNETH WILDER Who are your favourite artists/designers/
And I have to confess that the black American
architects and why?
artist Senga Nengudi has been only a
There are so many, so it’s difficult to
relatively recent discovery, and I lover her
narrow this down. I'm not sure I would ever use
humorous engagement of space through
the term 'favourite,' in that so many artists/
everyday materials such as pantyhose. I saw
designers/architects have informed my thinking
an amazing exhibition of Isamu Noguchi's
at different times in my life, and within different
lamps/lights in New York, and one of the
contexts/situations. There are certain figures
most recent inspiring new pieces of
who I have always been drawn to (and whose
architecture is Marina Tassabum's 2012 Bait
work I would always want to see/experience), but
Ur Rouf Mosque in Bangladesh (which won
too many to name; and I am not sure I would
the Aga Khan Award for Architecture). In
want to emulate them as such, though there are
2017 I made a filmed light installation
works I really wish I had made (such as Richard
inside Sigurd Lewerentz's 1966 amazing brick
Wilson's 20:50, or Agnes Martin's Friendship). I
church (Sankt Petri) in Sweden, which in its
also draw inspiration from a much wider cultural
quiet thoughtfulness and understatement is
context than art/design/architecture.
one of my 'favourite' (contradicting myself) pieces of architecture.
Who have you identified and framed in your
Why do you think people are campaigning
thinking, within your early career, and now?
and advocating for decolonising the
(Who/What has inspired you through the years?)
curriculum, now more than ever?
In terms of art, the work of Eva Hesse
I think it is such an important
was a revelation (primarily because of her
issue now in that it reflects a project
expansion of sculptural material, and the
that should have been started many
playfulness of her forms). Bruce Nauman also
years ago. There was an irrational 'fear'
inspired for his sheer inventiveness. More
from some that this would negate architecture
recently, the Nam June Paik exhibition at Tate
from dead white men.
Modern was fantastic, and confirms his significance as one of the most innovative artists emerging out of Fluxus.
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(Such as Lewerentz, mentioned earlier), or
It is highly doubtful whether Steve McQueen
that we would wipe Picasso from the
would have won the Oscar for Best Picture if he
curriculum; but quite the opposite,
had not first won the Turner Prize as an
decolonising the curriculum enriches and
installation artist (which is not to say that the
expands the curriculum rather than
gallery system and art world are easy to
narrowing it down. For instance, there is a
negotiate as a POC). Structural inequalities are
fascinating dialogue between the concerns
still prevalent, and campaigns such as #MeToo
and materiality of Lewerentz's Sankt Petri
remind us of the entrenchment of the
Church
Marina
dominant power relations (still only one woman
Tassabum's 2012 Mosque (both of which
has won the best director Oscar, while there are
are incredibly inventive in the way they use
still no black winners).
a n d
light). Does mis/under representation of POC in Do you believe spatial of colour have just
schools, universities, workplaces frame the briefs
the same opportunities, ter ms of
and curricula?
internships, jobs and career development,
in comparison to their white peers?
this mis/under representation is
No, I think there is still an
something that universities must work
imbalance of opportunities. Partly this
much harder to address. Nevertheless,
reflects persistent biases (conscious
there are some great initiatives coming though
or unconscious) but it also reflects wider
now, but there is still a long way to go (which a
economic factors (access to resources, social
look at the profile of senior management of
networks and so forth). Factors such as
universities attests to).
Yes, this is undoubtedly true, and
gender and class are also at play here. For every figure such as David
What positive impacts do you think could come
Adjaye or Steve McQueen that breaks
from rethinking our art and design archives and
through the glass ceiling, many others
information spaces?
fail not because of a lack of ability,
but because collective disciplines
enrich the range of references and sources of
such as architecture, interior design
infor mation, but also to understand
and film-making require access to
politically why the imbalance exists/
considerable resources to practice
persists.
This is an opportunity to diversify and
(in comparison, say, to art/music).
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Finally, I would like to know, what you believe could and should be done to alleviate this issue?
Partly, the lead needs to come from management, but it is also important that
students have an active voice in this. Some things can be addressed quite swiftly (such as changing reading lists , etc.), but the more structural imbalances in terms of the profile of management , etc., will take time to shift. Training (such as the UAL tackling implicit biases programme) is important, and having diverse representation on interview panels , etc. But individual lecturers have an important role in addressing their own range of references used in lectures/tutorials and so forth. Would you say your experiences in the professional working world have been different to those around you who are of different ethnic backgrounds? (Black, asian, other ethnic minorities?) Have you observed any differences during your life as both a student and an educator?
As a white heterosexual man I have undoubtedly benefitted from the attendant privileges
and imbalance in opportunities that goes along with such a fact. It would have undoubtedly been more difficult to attain my position within academia if I was black, asian or from another ethnic minority, or if I had been a woman. I get some sense of this inequality when I compare myself to peers who came from well-connected middle-class backgrounds (my parents are white working class, and were not, unlike some peers, able to commission my 'first' project, or get me into a practice where they knew someone). But such inequalities are multiplied when race, gender, and sexuality are factored in. How do you think educators can decolonise the curriculum — how can they input a more diverse structure into the curriculum do you think?Â
I have been trying to address the range of examples I use in lectures, and to widen my
pool of references. This may take time, but it requires important work. Doing exchanges abroad (such as the one I did to Beijing) is important, but I also think the UAL should be widening its connections to places like Africa, Latin America , etc., where the University is still under represented.
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