Speaking of Men This booklet contains interviews about men and masculinity, conducted with a diverse group of adults from the UWC CSC community. At the end of this booklet, you will find a series of prompts for reflection or discussion. Consider spending some time with these questions before, during, and after reading. Some of these interviews contain frank discussions of sex, sexual assault, and domestic violence. Be mindful of your level of comfort engaging with this content. As you read, consider taking breaks, skipping sections, and seeking out the support of friends, teachers, advisors, colleagues, or counselors.
What physical/emotional responses do you have to the word “masculinity”? I don’t think I have a physical reaction, or a particularly emotional one. But it has a negative ring to it. To me it’s very connected with “Rah-Rah” macho stuff. So it sounds a little bit scary almost. Who modeled manhood for you when you were growing up? What did you learn about men from these models? I don’t feel like I learned about “manhood” from any male figure that was close to me. I can resist the negative connotations of manhood I have now because I can think back and there were some people who I do have positive connotations with who happen to be male. But it’s not like when I think of them I think “this is masculinity,” or “this is manhood.” It’s just like “this is a person that I love.” The culture or some people might say that men are a certain way. And I can look back and say, “No, not necessarily. I knew this person growing up who was nothing like that.” I’m thinking about my grandpa. My grandpa played with me a lot, took care of me a lot when I was little. My parents were young, and they worked a lot, and my grandma was really busy working at the factory and then coming to cook and clean for everyone. So my grandma didn’t have time for me like that. And my grandpa was just in charge of being with me. So we used to play a lot of cards, a lot of games. Also, just being next to him. I would lie on top of him and watch TV. How have your ideas/feelings about, or relationships to, men or manhood changed as you’ve gotten older? People bring it up when you’re a kid. They say “Don’t do that, you’re not a boy.” Or “Boys are like this, girls are like that.”
Maybe not directly, but there are implications. Then, all your life you notice it. I never had strong connections to categories. I don’t have strong connections to my name, to my country, to the category of woman versus the category of man. I don’t feel strong affiliations to anything like that. For me, I’m fine not even talking about it. I feel like I have to care, because it’s real and present, but I would prefer not to. What do you wish more boys and men understood about… Love: That it’s not about roles, or about what anyone “should” do. It’s about not making anyone be anything or anyone different. It’s about feeling like that other person accepts you for who you are. It’s about feeling home. People today talk about how relationships are hard and “you have to make it work.” But I think it’s harder for people who work with really rigid categories of how it should be, and how a partner should be. Just see the person. Respect the person. Be nice. Be sweet. I think we overcomplicate things. Or, not that we overcomplicate things. But there’s just all this bullshit tied up in them. Sex: Have a conception of female sexuality, very concretely. Like, how does a female orgasm actually happen? What’s a clitoris? Learn about sex not from porn movies. Learn some basic things about female anatomy, like the reproductive system, so they’re not completely unknown. Are we a fucking different species or something? How can they be so unknown? Power: That despite what an individual is capable or, or can and cannot do, there are structures of power that exist…and
that life is easier or harder for people depending on those things. There are certain things that are easier for people depending on gender and race. When it’s easier for you, don’t assume that it’s like that for everyone. Look at the people around you who are in power, in positions of authority, in school or at work, and how they treat other people based on things like race and gender. And don’t let those unfair things happen. Pleasure: Nature is not binary. Nature is perverse. Mental health: I don’t know any particular thing that boys and men specifically should know about that. It affects everyone. Themselves: Nothing that I wouldn’t say to every person. I don’t have a special message for boys and men. We made up all these rules, and they don’t actually exist. We made them, and we can change them. What are some small, concrete things that boys and men can do to be better allies, friends, or partners to the girls and women in their lives? Notice who speaks more in public. Notice who speaks less. Notice who’s in charge, who’s not in charge. Just pay attention. Pay more attention to things. Just look.
What physical/emotional responses do you have to the word “masculinity”? "Masculinity" triggers many different emotions for me. First, the emotion I feel is one of safety as I think of my dad and brothers and how lovingly protective they are of family (me as a child, and now my brothers with their own wives and children). I also think of how wonderful my partner is. Then, I feel scared as I remember times when "masculinity" was conflated with physical power or physical domination by men who wanted something from me that I did not want to give. I remember being sexually assaulted and the fear/anger associated with those (plural assaults) memories. The third feeling I get is anger, as I get pissed off at the men whose toxic masculinity narrows my ability to make choices for myself. What I mean here are all of the times I have changed my clothing to be more conservative, not gone somewhere due to fear, or felt I was made to be less because I did not fit some idea these men had of what I should be. Who modeled manhood for you when you were growing up? What did you learn about men from these models? First, my dad. He was a person to be respected, but he knew so much about how things worked. I loved learning from him or helping him with projects. He was patient and kind, but also exacting in his expectation of what "good" or "correctly done" looked like. A man, in my mind, can fix anything, can build anything, and always has the right tool for the job at hand. Then, my grandpa. He was quietly loving and a giver. He always made sure needs were met and I never ever heard him raise his voice in my life. Generosity is what this person modeled to me. I had a series of step-fathers. None of them were great guys and they showed me much about what I did not like about manhood. In looking for a life-partner, I
actively avoided dating guys who shared the traits of these men. Lastly, I grew up in a place where I knew all of my country neighbors. The fathers of my friends, and the men (mostly grandpa aged retirees) in the neighborhood were often just around because that was the type of community I lived in. I can remember about 10 men who are in the background of many of my memories. They are strong silent types in the background, but they are also the ones moving the chairs, roasting the pig, and shoveling the snow when that sort of thing needed doing. They showed me how you just throw in and help, you don't complain about things, and you get it done. Strangely, I don't include any of the lecherous men I have met or those who have assaulted me in "manhood" in my mind. Each of these people I think of as "monsters". How have your ideas/feelings about, or relationships to, men or manhood changed as you’ve gotten older? Things are always evolving. I am happy that my brothers are teaching their sons to be kind and that it is okay to be soft/emotional. These are not things boys of my generation were taught. What do you wish more boys and men understood about… Love: You can love lots of people in your life. Love in real life doesn't always look like it is depicted in the movies or on TV. It is often not instant and it takes a lot of work. Sex: 1. Even if you don't think it is about power, sex is about power. It might not be about your personal power (physical, mental, emotional), but it might be about the power society is exerting on your partner.
2. Sex can be really fun for everyone, but it takes communication and trust to make it fun. 3. Sex is messy (sometimes there is blood along with other fluids) and how you react to the clean-up says a lot about you. If you shame a partner for what their body naturally does, you can cause harm and trauma that lasts a lot longer than the sex did. If the mess bothers you, buy black sheets and bedding, and change it often. 4. Talk about boundaries and limits before you introduce drugs or alcohol into the mix, and get consent beforehand if these things will be part of the plan. Don't "trick" a partner into going further than they are ready to by introducing these thing into the mix to impair judgement or weaken inhibitions. 5. Just because a female is on birth control, that doesn't mean contraception is 100% her responsibility. Offer to pay for part/all of a prescription, check in to see what additional side effects she may have (weight gain, longer periods, increased acne, decreased bone mass that can lead to bones breaking more easily... The list is literally 10 pages long for most chemical birth control methods), and know that your short term pleasure should not equate to her long term health risks. Offer to enthusiastically have a vasectomy if you don't intend to have children. 6. Sex in real life is never like it is in porn, even if you are with a porn star. 7. Offering to get a glass of water afterwards is always appreciated. Pleasure: 90-95% of my pleasure comes from places on my body other than my vulva and clitoris. Finding what feels good is a slow process and most young people will not
understand what they like for many years. The most pleasurable experiences in my life were all with people who I trusted deeply. The "meh"/forgettable experiences were with those who I did not trust or who took no time to understand how my body worked. Power: Power dynamics in the workplace are always unequal between genders. Even in the most enlightened workplace, assertive women are more quickly labeled in negative ways (bitchy, controlling, ball-breaker, etc.) for the same behaviors men get lauded for (assertive, a real go-getter, natural leader). Check yourself often. Mental health: Everyone should be in therapy. Get a therapist and invest in yourself. So many things in your life will improve as you figure out your baggage. Themselves: It's not a contest. I don't care what the "it" is, it's just not a contest. I see many boys and men trying to prove something, and you don't need to. What are some small, concrete things that boys and men can do to be better allies, friends, or partners to the girls and women in their lives? 1. Don't hold your private parts in public. I don't care how cold your hands are, don't put your hands in/on your crotch. It always looks like you are masturbating in public. 2. Don't take two/three seats by splaying your legs out in public spaces. It's aggressive and threatening to others. 3. Quit asking women if they are mad/upset when they are concentrating or relaxed. Learn what your sister/friend/mother's face looks like when she is calm.
Asking someone who is relaxed/not wearing make-up if they are mad is a sure fire way to make them mad. 4. Don't assume anyone welcomes your help. Don't be hurt if someone refuses your help. It's not about you. 5. Listen to what women say. Trust that we mean what we say. 6. Learn to cook, clean, and mend your own clothing. Don't assume women/girls know how to do these things. 7. Be careful how you walk in public spaces. If you see a woman alone (especially at night) take care to give her space so that you don't freak her out. EVERY SINGLE WOMAN is fearful of being attacked and even if you are not thinking about it, she 100% is. If you start walking in the same direction as a single woman on the street, it can feel to her like you are following her. Give her space; cross to the other side of the street; and understand that it is not you that she is afraid of, it is the collective memory of women who have been attacked that is causing the fear. 8. When you get to be 18 or 20 or 22, realize that nearly every woman you know has been sexually assaulted at least once (if not more). This means that she is carrying trauma that she might not be sharing with you, and this trauma may impact trust building or come up at surprising times if it is triggered. 9. How you talk about women contributes to a misogynistic culture that makes women fearful for their own safety. Are you making statements to your male friends that show you think you "deserve it" when a woman chooses to date you? If you are, you are part of the reason women are almost always fearful of their personal safety in public spaces. Women owe you nothing.
10. Make sure you hold other boys/men accountable for their words and actions when you hangout as "dudes". Don't tolerate sexual objectification of women/people. Don't let it be cool/okay to treat women/people poorly (this might look like cat calling, or naked/nearly naked women on posters in public spaces, or "locker room"). If you can't stand up to these people, don't continue to passively condone the behavior and hang with them.
What physical/emotional responses do you have to the word “masculinity”? I don’t have any physical or much of an emotional response to the words themselves, perhaps because I identify as a member of the “in group” regarding these terms and have not had my own affiliation with masculinity questioned by others. That is a privilege I acknowledge. Who modeled manhood for you when you were growing up? What did you learn about men from these models? I am the youngest of three boys, so I grew up in a home with four men total plus my mother. There was a lot of testosterone; my brothers and I would wrestle, call each other horrible names, and any version of playing together was grounded in competition. Showing emotion was often cause for ridicule by my middle brother, so I went from being a crybaby little kid to an adult who remains fairly steady emotionally at almost all times. In terms of manhood though, our father was our primary model. In some ways, my father broke from the heteronormative roles often associated with male heads of household; he worked as an educator (teacher turned elementary school principal), he often cooked meals and cleaned the house, and he freely expressed emotions such as love towards us. However, I also passively learned a number of misogynistic lessons from observing his behavior when he would crane his neck in the car while driving past a beautiful woman or escape to his “man cave” to watch sports. He showed me lessons that I find valuable in my current relationship such as it is ok to have fights, express emotions, and apologizing isn’t emasculating. Yet I also have been told quotes by him such as, “the two most important words any
husband can learn are, ‘yes dear,’ and ‘you’re right” – implying that a man’s role is to submit to the whims of a wife or else face her nagging wrath. How have your ideas/feelings about, or relationships to, men or manhood changed as you’ve gotten older? Growing up in the 90s in a blue collar, lower-middle class town, I was not exposed to many positive portrayals of feminism or negative depictions of toxic masculinity. As I’ve gotten older, I have become much more aware of the patriarchy and the privileges I have had as a man. The casual sexism of “dumb blonde jokes” or “locker room talk” that I participated in as a boy now strike me as vulgar. Being in a relationship with someone who cares deeply about women’s issues has been an important part of my education in this regard. When you love someone, and have built up a relationship of trust, it is much easier to have your ideas challenged without wanting to turn off. I have also been struck by how different male friendships tend to be from female friendships. As I’ve gotten older I’ve felt that men are often less willing to be vulnerable and admit they have a desire for platonic companionship in the same way that women do. It seems to be one of the things that gets cut first when men become busier with career or family. The comedian John Mulaney sums it up with his joke, “My dad has no friends. And your dad has no friends. And if you think your dad has friends, you’re wrong. Your mom has friends, and they have husbands. Those are not your dad’s friends.” What do you wish more boys and men understood about… Love: it’s ok to say the “L word” to other men or people in general. That doesn’t make you gay or any less of a man to tell someone you love them.
Sex: society (and potentially biology) has trapped women in so many ways into enjoying sex less than men. Men who have many sexual partners are praised. Women who have many sexual partners are often slut shamed. Biologically, many women take longer to reach orgasm than men or cannot reach orgasm through penis-in-vagina sex. Society has conditioned many women to feel shame if they cannot cum “fast enough” or to fake an orgasm to make the man feel better/put an end to sex in a way that feels resolved safely. Sexual activity doesn’t only have to end in orgasm for both people to have a good time, so men shouldn’t enter every kissing session with the end goal of making your partner cum. At the same time, men should be open to communicating with their partners about what they like/need to orgasm and have the patience to do it without making their partners feel shame. Finally, women should be viewed as human beings and not just sexual beings. Try not to let your first thoughts about women be about their physicality or sexual nature. Men are not owed sex by women as involuntary celibates (incels) believe. Power: For almost the entirety of the Anthropocene men have had societal power (aka the patriarchy). Men need to actively lift up women into roles of power and support them once they are there to make any difference in gender inequities. I fear that at times certain men will feel “discriminated” against for their gender, but it is less about discrimination and more about a fairer allocation of power resources in society. Finally, I will share that physical power does not equal true power. I think it is an attractive notion for boys and men that strengthening your muscles can compensate for some other area of life. However, being able to win a fight will not make you happier, better, more successful in most cases of life!
Pleasure: It’s ok to derive pleasure from things that may not be stereotypically masculine. In many cases men have been socialized to like blues instead of pinks, sports instead of dancing, craftsmanship instead of aesthetics and etc. Try to identify the arbitrary nature of socialization in regards to these things and if you get pleasure from something, whatever it is, that is ok. Mental health: The suicide rate for men across the globe is several times higher for men compared to women. I believe this is because men have been conditioned to view mental health (speaking about it, getting help for it) as a weakness. I do believe many societies place a heavy burden on men to be financial providers or adhere to toxically masculine standards, which may negatively impact mental health. Themselves: How their upbringing has influenced their personality traits and behaviors. What are some small, concrete things that boys and men can do in their daily lives to be better allies, friends, or partners to the girls and women in their lives? Ask them this very question, actively listen to their responses, and make it a point to follow through on it. I just did that with my partner and here are some of her responses: • Make space for women’s voices (don’t always be the first person to speak up in a class or meeting, don’t talk over women or interrupt them, don’t mansplain) • Educate yourself on women’s issues rather than placing the burden on women to educate men all the time
• Believe women when they say they feel something (even if you don’t feel that way or have trouble understanding how someone could feel that way) or say something happened •
Ask for consent
What physical/emotional responses do you have to the word “masculinity”? Uuugh! (laughs) I think it’s like a mixed feeling. I grew up in such a patriarchal community. For instance, my grandma died in 2020, and my grandpa died in 2018. I loved both my grandparents. They were my maternal grandparents, but when the funeral rites happened, my mom and her sisters couldn’t go. I thought it was weird that my dad, the son-in-law, got to go, and all my boy cousins got to go, but we couldn’t go to the crematorium to perform the last rites. It sucks to know that I’m treated differently. It bugs me to know that men just get a lot of free passes. The society is built in such a way to allow them to have a much better life than me. For example, in my culture clothes are often sewn by men. I find it odd because the chest part is always tight for me, because it’s sewn by a man. If they were sewn by women, they would know what they were doing! There are just a lot of things in life…like being told when you’re growing up that boys can grow up and be doctors, but girls should be doctors because they’ll be more marketable in the marriage market. Just to hear all these double-standards growing up, it’s frustrating. It also sort of impacted the way I look at men, because I tend to feel like I just do not like them. Relationship-wise, I found a partner who accepts me for who I truly am. I’m in an interracial relationship, which is easier for me because my partner is able to see me for who I am. But I feel that if I ended up with someone from my culture, it would be extremely challenging, because there would be all these things
that I would be expected to carry with me as a woman. And it’s just not fair. I find it extremely disheartening that a lot of the culture has talked about how men are considered better. For instance, men can “lightly beat” their wives, because beating your wife is a sign of love. This is why domestic violence happens like crazy. When I volunteered at the Woman’s Aid Organization (WAO), I worked with a lot of domestic violence survivors, and it breaks my heart to see it. It worries me that I might end up in a situation like this. If I stood up to my significant other, they could just divorce me. I grew up in an environment where I’m constantly seeing my male cousins eat first and I second. So long story short, men, ugh. Did you have any men in your life who modeled alternatives to this kind of masculinity? No…the only man I liked besides my partner is my dad. And my dad has to be that way because he has three daughters at home and one wife. We outnumber him. But there is a tendency for him to conform to the societal norm when he’s outside, and it bugs me a lot. I’m sure there are men out there like that. I don’t feel comfortable generalizing them. But my question is, even if my own cousin is being very progressive, he lives in a household where his parents and his grandparents are not progressive, and I don’t know how progressive he can be. There’s a fad now for men to live in a world where their wives make more than them…but in reality, no matter how hard your wife works or how much money she makes, she still
needs to bear a child for you, give you sex, or make you feel like a man at home. When did you begin to realize that these problematic ideas of masculinity were cultural? Up until high school, my goal was just to get through high school. I would go to cram school after school. My life was so focused on school. My parents created an environment where that was the only responsibility I had, and I didn’t really care about anything but getting As in class. I feel like I grew up very sheltered. But when I went to uni, I startled realizing things, like when I read Peggy McIntosh’s book about privilege. For one of my theses for one of my women’s studies classes, I actually wrote about domestic violence. My neighbor used to beat his wife a lot. And my mom would tell him, “Please, don’t beat her.” And he would say, “She has to be trained.” I saw this kind of thing a lot, not just in the culture I grew up with, and I saw it reinforced by the media. It’s still similar right now. If you watch a Bollywood movie, the heroine is half the age of the hero. As a man you can be a hero when you’re sixty, but when women turn 30, they’re out of it. It really repeats what the society wants or expects of people. Having that knowledge to question things, which I got in uni, really pushed me further. I was always told you should dress a certain way. I never thought to question why. But the minute I started doing that, I realized something is wrong. There were times in my life when I was single. I’m blessed that my parents really understand me, but we live in a society where you have to conform. And my uncles and aunts would tell me, you have to get married by the time you’re 26, because
if you don’t, nobody else will want you. Hearing stuff like that really makes you feel worthless. You feel like, why do I have to work so hard in life when I’m just going to be someone else’s wife? When you ask why, you’re told “Why are you asking why? This is how it always has been. This is what we have to do.” We come from a specific caste, and even though I’m secondgeneration, there’s still a high expectation that we marry within our caste. That expectation still exists, because it’s very much attributed to “This is how the culture is like, this is how the community is like.” Or, when you go to the temple, where the priest comes, the priest will give the offerings to the men first, and that’s how it’s always men. Women have always been considered dirty. I can’t pray when I have my period. My college education pushed a lot of critical thinking in me, and that allowed me to see how problematic it is. How do you manage the anger and frustration that come with seeing and experiencing this? I have a reputation. A bad one. I tend to pick fights a lot. I get aggressive sometimes. If we’re having a conversation, I will not hesitate to call people on their negative behaviour. I feel like I’ve earned that reputation, which is why people say “No one will give their son to you.” I have no filter, I say what I have to say. My mom tells me I have to watch what I say, but I tell her I don’t care. Otherwise I would feel like I’m not being true to myself, to the values that I hold close to me. Sometimes I’m not the nicest human being, but some days I just cannot take unwanted comments from men. Or the women who support and conform to this norm. I hate it. But I try to be mindful not to shove my ideology down their throat.
What do you wish more men understood about… Love: I wish they knew that loving a woman is not just loving “a woman.” It’s loving an individual. I don’t believe that someone is completely straight or gay. You’re somewhere in between. If that can be a spectrum, why do you expect these women that you love to conform to what the norms of what women in your community should be like? So I wish men were more understanding of the fact that women can be women in many different ways, and you can love them for who they really are. Sex: Understand the definition of consensual. I wish men understood that just because someone smiled at you, it’s not an invitation for you to do whatever it is you want to do. Also, know that sex is pleasurable for women too. We might want more of it. It doesn’t mean I have to act coy or pretend like I’m in pain all the time. It’s okay for women to want something casual, something that is not committed. Don’t attach labels, like “she’s a slut, she sleeps around.” Just know that female anatomy is very different than a male’s anatomy. But masculinity has shaped the way we view our world, and when we try to ask for something different, it’s viewed so negatively. Mental health: They should understand that it’s okay for someone to experience struggles with their mental health, and that support exists in different types of ways. There are a lot of expectations for how men should be, and I feel like if a man is a great listener to you, they might be perceived as less masculine. But support can be given to a partner or to someone who has mental health issues in lots of different ways that are supportive to the person.
But it’s a very difficult question, because do men really share how they feel? How does mental health affect them as well? I think it’s okay for men to be vulnerable. Why would I perceive you as less of a man because you cried in front of me? I hear that, but then I feel like there’s also a thing about men making their feelings seem so important and requiring emotional labor from the women in their lives to console them. Emotional labor for me is only one-sided. It’s like if I listen, listen, listen, but my partner doesn’t want to listen to me. But it’s good to be mindful of this. I think most men don’t even think about crap like this. Power: I am very driven as a person. I’m very strongly opinionated, and I have a big personality. I wish men didn’t see women’s power as something intimidating. I’ve had aunties straight-up tell me “You need it to tone it down because you’ll scare the men away in your life.” I love that my partner appreciates the fact that I’m a go-getter. I love to climb up the ladder. My partner is not like that at all. He is very happy with what he does, he keeps me calm, he makes me happy. That’s one of the reasons I love him so much, because he understands that I’m not trying to emasculate him. I’ve been in positions where I’ve had subordinates, and it’s really hard to get people to take you seriously. I wish men understood that it’s hard for women in power, because they have to think of so many things. It’s not easy for them to just waltz in. There’s an added layer of challenges that women in power have to go through in their lives. Don’t let the first thing you assume about a lady boss be that they’re difficult to work with. I’ve heard people jokingly say
that, and I call people on it. If it was a man, you wouldn’t say the same thing. What are some small, concrete things that boys and men can do to be better allies, friends, or partners to the girls and women in their lives? If you see something wrong, you should say it. I know it’s hard. People might think you’re different. But it’s okay to be different. It’s okay to stand up for a woman or a girl in your class. If you think that what you’re saying isn’t right, you should voice out something. It’s important to share the privilege that you have. If men have all this privilege, they should learn how to share it. Don’t walk around thinking that women are so weak that you need to lift their bags. Benevolent patriarchy is something I notice a lot these days, this whole idea of trying to be nice, but in a way that says “Look at me, I’m very masculine.” It’s easy to say don’t conform to the typical norm. But I think you should stand up for what you value and truly believe in. Try volunteering in places where there’s support being given to women. Being able to see more than just your mom and your sister, seeing how other women are being treated, is really important for men to do. I’m not saying that all men should go and try to change other men, but try to see, understand, and feel the added layer of struggle that women tend to face.
What physical/emotional responses do you have to the word “masculinity”? In my culture boys are circumcised at a young age to become men. This is an ancient custom to celebrate and prepare the right of passage from boyhood to manhood. In my culture, there are specific expectations of girls and boys and the same for women and men in how we fit in society and the roles we occupy. Expectations from the society of boys are such that a boy should grow strong, become adaptable, resilient, and brave to be able to fend and provide for the family. If something bad were to happen in a home or tribe the boys, men would be required to be brave/courageous for a physical or violent, or life-threatening event. An example would be, in a Xhosa home if there were to be a dangerous snake or any animal in the house the expectation would be that the males in the household would fend off, kill or chase away the dangerous animal. The same case in the event of an intruder coming into the home unwelcomed if this person would present a physical threat to the members of the household. In South Africa, it is normal for males to have a weapon, stick, gun somewhere nearby in case the bed in case of a threat during the nighttime or daytime. So masculinity is linked to the expectation that a male should always be ready to fend against all danger to protect and provide for his "people". This of cause has a mental and emotional impact on young males. Who modeled manhood for you when you were growing up? What did you learn about men from these models? All the males in my community played a very important role in modeling manhood for me. So that would be, my grandfather, father, uncle, male friends, boys in my school, male teachers, boys in my community, and men in my community. There has always been a constant transfer of
knowledge of masculinity throughout my childhood for as long as I can remember. How have your ideas/feelings about, or relationships to, men or manhood changed as you’ve gotten older? I grew up with a very protective mindset, which has made me very alert and aloof, a state where I am cool, distant and cautious. In every situation I enter in I am always scanning for danger, weighing the risks of everything in my surroundings, and being fully aware of the different environments and individuals in that environment. So this has been my approach to relationships and for the longest time remained so. Only a couple of years ago I started to learn to let go and to relax a little and to be more showing of softer feelings. What do you wish more boys and men understood about… Love: I think it's important for boys to learn to let go of the need to be responsible all the time, to let go of taking on burdens. These are very heavy feelings although everyone deals with them differently and many boys will hide them but they are there deep in our hearts. Letting go of hard protective feelings is a very positive way of experiencing and showing love. Sex: I think it's important to let go of the need and feelings of responsibility to please, satisfy and be pleased or satisfied. This can be very stressful and restrictive to enjoyment and connection. Sex can be extremely burdensome if you do not know how to let go. Power: Control is at the very center of power, controlling one's feelings, controlling unpleasant situations and people. Here again, I think letting go is very important, you need to
know when to hold onto something or someone and when to let go. This is the same with the physical body, you need to know how to channel energy in the physical body and how to use it in a manner that hormones, masculinity does not control your body but that you channel and release energy efficiently and effectively. Power is linked to the core, it is the management of the body, mind, and soul. This goes to health within these aspects and relationships with others and yourself. Pleasure: Pleasure is in everything we are and everything we do. Eating an apple, touching another person, being touched by another person by either male or female, feeling, tasting, and experiencing. All these things give different forms of pleasure. Being stimulated in different ways by different things is very important to pierce different sensations with all your being. Don't allow shame, guilt, sorrow, and regret to rob you of the pleasures of life. This is the art of letting go of what you cannot control and managing what you can control. In other words, having a healthy balance through relationships with yourself, others, your environment, and the things in that environment. Mental health: Like the physical body, your mind needs to be fed. You need to get soul food for your mind, which means surrounding yourself with positive energy from yourself, people around you, a positive environment, and things that make you feel good. Drink and water are vital not only to your physical body but also to your mental being. Your mental state is linked to your physical body so you need to eat healthily, do physical exercise, and also do mental and emotional positive affirmations. Listening to positive and empowering music, reading a book that will bring these feelings out, watching a movie, spending time with family and
friends, eating food that you love that brings out specific positive feelings (soul food), is how you keep mental health. Understand your body, understand your mind, understand your emotion and you will always know what soul food you need. Themselves: You need to be honest with yourself about who you are and what you are. Once you have achieved that, nobody, event, or circumstance can ever lie to you about who you are and what you are. You and you alone know the drum of your heartbeat, that means you know what motivates you, what excites you, what makes you sad, what gives you anxiety, and what makes you confident or nervous. It is important to monitor your mood swings, what changes your mood, identify it. Is it physical, physiological (smell, sweat) or psychological or emotional, this is important because it will determine your response or reaction to people and the world around you. This is a skill, learn it and master it and you will be able to deal with yourself and you will understand yourself and you will have yourself as a good, trusted, and reliable friend. What are some small, concrete things that boys and men can do to be better allies, friends, or partners to the girls and women in their lives? My advice is to pay attention to the facial and bodily communication of females around you. How do they use their faces and bodies to communicate with you? Look at the proxemics, how do they navigate the physical space around you? Understanding facial expressions will help you a lot in knowing how they are feeling and that will give you some clues as to how you should engage them. Be sensitive to their thoughts and feelings. By nature, we are disconnected from females due to biology, we do not have a menstrual cycle, we
do not have a womb, so we can always deduce that we need to make a concerted effort to try and understand females because we cannot relate to the physical, emotional, psychological and physiological experience that they experience due to their anatomy (the organs and processes that are specialized only to the female body).
What physical/emotional responses do you have to the word “masculinity”? How about “men”? (Or the equivalents of these words in your mother tongue) Masculinity is not a word I use or feel very familiar with. I speak of someone being "masculine" like a stereotype. Someone who is "masculine" I guess looks more "macho," I don't know...more manly? Who modeled manhood for you when you were growing up? What did you learn about men from these models? My father did. I learned that an idol can become a foe in a matter of hours, that some of the deepest loves I have ever felt was for my dad which then became hatred/despise. I learned you can't trust, you cannot believe, that children, daughters are vulnerable, that we are taught to love our parents as if they were gods. Gods love and destroy, perfect despots. That men cheat even when they say they love you, and subsequently they lie. Really pathetic. How have your ideas/feelings about, or relationships to, men or manhood changed as you’ve gotten older? They have not changed. I feel the same I felt when my dad left and when my first lover cheated on me. The fact that my ex-husband cheated, lied and left me with a two year old, did not help. Now I guess I have learned to accept and maybe forgive because I am the mother of a boy. Because I want my feelings for him to be fair and unbiased. I have a very conflictive relationship towards men, it really is love and hate. What do you wish more boys and men understood about… Love: To be honest, to be emotional, to learn to listen, to ignore social pressure and stupid expectations. That they don't
need to be in control, that we are all equal. That we need to deconstruct the love narrative we have grown up with. That they need to learn to communicate. Sex: That they don't rule because they have a penis. That they are not in charge. That we need as much attention and pleasure as they do, that our role is not just to please them. That sex is not just intercourse. That they need to communicate and ask always. They also need to learn to listen. That all sexual orientation or identity or relationship is ok. That LGBTQ love/sex is ok. Power: That power makes you weak. Power is not the answer. They should not look at their role in a relationship in terms of power. Power is not a value. Mental health: That it is ok. That we all have mental issues. That those don't make us weaker or "crazy". That therapy is good and valid. That talking about our mental vulnerability is not "bad", that we can all have issues. That they are no less "men/manly" if they have a mental issue. That we need to normalize mental health and get rid of the stigma and prejudice. That being "emotional" is ok. Themselves: That they don't need to pretend or abide by social norms. That they should feel free and happy. What are some small, concrete things that boys and men can do to be better allies, friends, or partners to the girls and women in their lives? ... or to the male friends or partners in their lives... that communication is more important than anything else but it is also the hardest thing in all relationships. Don't lie. Learn to listen and be present and for young people: to be very careful with online texting, dating, and social media.
What connotations does the word “masculinity” have for you? I have fairly negative connotations about the word masculinity. I have a hard time distinguishing between the things we think about as toxic masculinity and regular masculinity. There hasn’t been a great amount of good role models of masculinity as such. So when I think of the word, I almost always think of the aspects of masculinity we associate with being toxic: the aggression, inability to express emotions, all that sort of stuff. The word itself is not a pleasant word. When I think of it I’m always thinking about something that’s wrong. Have you always felt that way? I think so. When I say I didn’t have good role models for masculinity, I should say that I think my dad was actually a really good role model for masculinity, but I didn’t associate the word with him. I was always aware of the way that I and my family were different than the way manhood was being sold culturally. My parents were both professed pacifists, and that was really unusual in South Dakota. We had a much different attitude toward hunting, and violence, and drinking beer, and all the things I would normally get from growing up there. Did you see your dad or other men around you facing consequences for not conforming to the norms around masculinity? Not really…my friends and I weren’t bullied, but we weren’t popular. We were at the bottom of the social hierarchy in many ways. We played D&D together instead of going out and drinking beer and hell-raising and picking fights. We weren’t penalized overtly, but we weren’t popular or cool.
With my dad it was a little different because he was a pastor, and well-respected because of that. He would regularly cry when he was giving his sermons, and he was known for that. That seemed to be acceptable. His position as a pastor gave him license to do that in a way that probably wouldn’t have happened otherwise. Do you think the Christian culture had an influence on how masculinity manifested itself in that context? A little bit, but less so then than now. Back then, most of the Christianity was more old-line, traditional denominations: Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran. There was less of the Evangelical movement. The Evangelical Christian movement is where we see more of the muscular, nationalist approach to Christianity that is overtly anti-feminist and all of that. I think that’s changed. Back then it was more traditional, but my dad’s church was different. The Lutherans were very liberal and he was very liberal, so our particular church was way, way to the left of what we would expect on all those social issues. But in South Dakota itself, I don’t think we would see the sort of “Jesus holding an M16” sort of imagery. (laughs) When did you become aware of the concept of toxic masculinity? I probably wasn’t aware of toxic masculinity as a thing until my early 30s. Probably when I was starting grad school. Beginning in college, I was very aware of feminism, but not really aware of thinking about gender and observing what it means to be a man, masculinity itself. I wasn’t really thinking about that. So it wasn’t until I was taking grad school classes that I started to be aware of the idea that masculinity as the norm still needs to be looked at critically.
How did it feel to start developing that more critical perspective on masculinity? Freeing. Very much so. I think I internalized a bit of shame, or maybe inadequacy. I’m not an “uber-dude,” and I never was. And I always kind of felt like maybe I should have been. I’m not sure I was ever able to articulate that very well. But it felt very freeing to be able to cast that aside. I think I had more vocabulary for gender than for race. It was easier for me. Race is such a third rail, and that was more of a struggle for me. But for gender, being able to recognize where things come from and to be able to say no, I don’t want to participate in that definition or that expectation, that felt great. What do you wish more boys and men understood about… Love: In terms of finding love, being rejected is a good thing in many ways. I remember, if I liked someone, I was terrified of rejection. At some point I realized that that’s good knowledge to have, because why would I want to be with someone who doesn’t like me? Being rejected is something that really doesn’t have anything to do with you and has nothing to do with your own self-worth. Part of my own experience of growing up was being able to shed that expectation that I deserved in some ways reciprocation. I think I fell into a bit of the “nice guy” trap for a while, that because I was a nice person and a good person I deserved to have my feelings reciprocated. At a certain point I realized that that’s wrong. I really wish I could have had more confidence in knowing that in terms of love, you want to be with someone who wants you. Finding out that it doesn’t work or that they don’t like you or no longer like you is
actually good helpful information, because otherwise the relationship won’t be good, won’t be strong, won’t be healthy. Sex: Maybe the same thing. (laughs). I could probably replace the words love and sex and just repeat everything I said. (laughs) I would have liked to know earlier about how important vulnerability is to sex. That good sex is opening yourself up in many ways, and it’s powerful. It makes you vulnerable and that should be embraced because that’s good. Having a more expansive understanding of masculinity should include that. That’s something that a lot of us struggle with in general, but with sex it’s really important. Power: For all expressions of power, but for masculinity as well, I think it’s really important to give up power and to recognize the way that power can be a bad thing. Power can corrupt you, power can make you less empathetic, less understanding, less of a good person. It’s so easy to swim along in the current that resisting the power you have is a good thing. It gives you a different relationship to the people around you, but it also shifts you out of an easy, received normative behavior. It can make your life richer and fuller to step out of power. Mental health: I’ve probably only had one moment of struggling with mental health, and that was recently when I was stuck in Costa Rica before I could come here. I was not in any community because I hadn’t met anyone here and I was so far behind because of the time zones. It was really a struggle to be both isolated but also just not part of a group. That was the only time that I recognize now I had a lot of the signs of depression. That didn’t last long. Once I got here I got out of it. But I think for the first time I started to pay
attention to the news reports and commentary about mental health and men, and just in that brief experience I recognize how easy it is to fall back on the gruff, tough it out, “I’ll be fine…” I didn’t really reach out to anyone for help at that point. I could have and should have and things would have been better. I would’ve been so much happier, and productive, and functional. Like with sex, vulnerability is ok. Embracing vulnerability is a good thing, it leads to good outcomes. I wish I would have known that. Themselves: I wish we would be more aware of how we are shaped by the cultural messages that we receive. I think there’s a lot more conversations about women, among young women, about that process, about knowing and being aware of the sort of advertising we’re subjected to, and the TV shows and all that sort of stuff. Certainly when I was young I was aware of it for women but not for men. I wish I could have been more critical about the messages I received, much earlier on. Now that I am more aware of it I can recognize it and be in dialogue with it. I didn’t have that vocabulary when I was younger but I wish I had. What are some small, concrete things that boys and men can do to be better allies, friends, or partners to the girls and women in their lives? Taking sex and sexual attraction off the table is really good. I think that’s one of the bets things you can do to be a good friend to a women, just not entertain the idea of sex. I’ve gotten better at that as I’ve gotten older. I think when I was younger I let sexual attraction get in the way of treating women as normal friends. Putting that aside and just being a normal friend is the best thing you can do. I don’t mean treat
them like a guy. I think I’m still aware that my friends who are woman are women, and I’m not trying to make them into a dude, but my good female friendships have been made better and stronger because I don’t need to worry about anything from objectifying them sexually to worrying about expectations and reciprocity. I could be a better friend and a more emotionally available friend without that hanging overhead.
What do you think or feel when you hear the word “masculinity”? If this were an implicit association test, I think I would err on the negative association side, because I think I’ve started to envision masculinity as sort of a “trap” for people of all gender identities. It’s a thing that’s become detrimental to maleidentified people and people of other gender identities because of the systems I associate with masculinity. I can think of positive associations as well, but that’s my gut reaction. Have you always felt this way? No. I can think of a time in my life when I probably would not have identified as a feminist, before I thought that critically about these things. Of course, everyone grows up and discovers things at different rates. For me, there was an evolution from not really thinking about gender norms, to having some awareness of it as a structure that you need to play within. Like, this is how the world works, how do you exist within it? And then finally I realized, oh, maybe it doesn’t have to be this way. That probably happened when I turned 18 or something like that. Who modeled manhood or masculinity for you when you were growing up? I don’t have very negative associations with the individuals whom I’m close to who identify as men, but I also don’t think I associate them with what I think of traditionally as masculinity…which is part of the problem. It’s been hard for me to separate masculinity from toxic masculinity. My brother is non-binary, and my dad is very kind…so the first thing that comes to mind are more traditionally masculine teachers and bullies: people who made me aware of my female identity in a way that made me feel bad. In more intimate
spaces with people I didn’t feel threatened by, I didn’t think that much about the fact that I was a woman and my dad was a man. When you started thinking more critically about men and masculinity, did it impact way you thought about the men in your life? Yeah…a little bit. I can think of a few examples. I remember very clearly learning what the word “rape” meant. I was on vacation with a bunch of extended relatives, and I just remember being so afraid of them, because I guess I must have learned about rape as a thing that cis-men do to cis-women. In my child-brain, that was my simplified understanding of it at the time. So I could picture one of my uncles and think “he looks like the one who would be violent against women.” I also started learning about more traditional household gender roles and getting a little frustrated about the disparities in domestic labor in my home and the privileges my dad enjoyed, like we kids being so excited when he got home from work and not appreciating my mom at all for having been there all day. What stops you from feeling entirely negative about masculinity or about men, given some of these feelings and experiences you’re describing? It’s a distance thing. I’m surrounded by really wonderful, supportive men who can be masculine if they want to and not be negative. I’m probably in a bit of a liberal bubble, but I feel grateful to have a partner who thinks a lot about his voice and how he can use it as an ally, and tons of other people who identify as male and feel that way, who have taken my side in fights with men on these issues publicly. I’m also really inspired by people of all identities who can express themselves
beyond the perceived gender binary expressions, and I think that’s even a step further. One of the reasons my initial feelings about masculinity are a little negative is because masculinity can be as harmful, if not more harmful, to people who identify as boys as it can be for everyone else. Many boys grow up feeling pressured because they’re too small, and don’t feel they can be big enough to be considered manly, or feel pressured to make crude jokes to fit in, or not have emotions. It’s something I’m concerned about, but I’m really grateful to talk about it and I’m grateful for people who are allies in talking about it. What do you wish more boys and men understood about… Love: That there are different types of love—physical love, emotional love, friendship love—and how to differentiate them. Some men in some societies are taught to only get their self-worth from their ability to get sexual love or sexual partners. Related to that, dealing with rejection from love. I wish more people were taught how to deal with rejections in love situations. How would you like to see rejection dealt with differently? Less violently, which is a sweeping generalization. But to make an unfair, black and white comparison, many people who identify as young women are taught that if you get rejected, it’s your fault, and many people who identify as young men are taught that if you get rejected it’s their fault. It’s always the fault of the other person, and that gives them
the right to be rude or even violent. So maybe teaching boys a little more introspection instead of immediately acting out. Sex: Consent. I wish that more people around the world understood consent culture. I also wish more boys and men understood that sex is more about fit than just size. There’s so much pressure on young boys to have what we affectionately refer to as a “dickmeasuring contest,” and to feel bad if they don’t have the biggest penis, which I think is a misunderstanding of how penis-in-vagina sex works. Power: On a very basic level, I wish that more people in all privileged positions understood that they have power. People take it personally sometimes to hear that they have privilege or power. It’s really hard for people in positions of power to see how much power they have, that they’re getting things because of their power, and how much of an imbalance that creates. Even if they’re not doing it on purpose, they could still be using power over someone, they may not ever know it. It’s really complicated to understand. I wish it was something we could talk about at a younger age. What would you like to see people do with the power and privilege that they have? Because of the inequitable systems that have led us to situations we’re in today, there’s usually just someone who is already in power, and relinquishing that power is the only option. They have to do something because there’s a certain portion of the population who won’t listen to a woman or a
person of color until it’s validated by a person in power. I don’t think we can get to a place where it’s more equitable that without some men using their power for good and/or stepping aside. How can people with power see the relinquishing of their power as something positive? It seems like every time there’s been an example of more representation in any space of power, whether government or entertainment, it’s led to more equality and understanding and empathy. Mental health: I wish that everyone treated mental health like physical health, got regular annual check-ups, treating it like something that needed to be regularly considered and not discovered as a last-ditch effort if you’re feeling different than how you’re used to be feeling. Especially boys and men, I believe, are more resistant to mental health and therapy because they’re often taught not to have emotions and tough it out. I wish people were taught that it’s not weak. Do you have any tips on how boys and men can be better friends, partners, and allies to the girls and women in their lives? The first thing that comes to mind is for anyone who finds themselves in a situation with a group of friends, or on social media, when someone makes a lewd joke about someone or someone’s partner, just thinking they’re being funny...I wish that more boys and men in those spaces would shut down those types of jokes. If someone is making a rape joke, you just say, “Dude, no. That’s just not funny. You just don’t do that.”
Those are things that perpetuate a culture of violence against women. I also wish that any person who is willing to read this and is interested in this topic would use the word feminist. It’s not the perfect term for all of these issues, but it’s been so demonized that a lot of people who identify as boys and men are afraid of associating themselves with the word…and I think it would help people who aren’t afraid of the word if they had more allies who proudly called themselves feminists. Is there anything else you’d like to say to the people reading this? I saw a funny thing on social media that I’ve been thinking about. A common thing that comes up in these conversations is the famous push-back, “Not all men.” Because of course, not every single man I know has some of the toxic traits we’re talking about. But someone on social media was saying that they want to start a TV show called “Not All Snakes,” where they would just put a whole bunch of people in a room with a variety of different snakes, and they’re not all poisonous! Yeah, that’s kind of how I feel moving through the world and talking about this. Of course not every man is toxically masculine, but right now it is not safe to move through the world as a woman, or a trans or non-binary individual, due to the risk of harm from men or folks who have been influenced by toxic masculinity. We shouldn’t have to live like that.
What physical/emotional responses do you have to the word “masculinity”? Yikes, not attractive. Who modeled manhood for you when you were growing up? What did you learn about men from these models? My father. Works hard, independent, very rational and rarely displays emotions. How have your ideas/feelings about, or relationships to, men or manhood changed as you’ve gotten older? Having an open, curious, and inquisitive mind is much more important than physical looks. What do you wish more boys and men understood about… Love: You have to work toward building a relationship, i.e., listen and communicate. Sex: Ask what your partner wants rather than what you want. Power: Being kind, gentle and compassionate is power too. Pleasure: Moderation. Mental health: Talk about problems. It's okay not to be okay. Themselves: The world does not resolve around them. What are some small, concrete things that boys and men can do to be better allies, friends, or partners to the girls and women in their lives? Be more pro-active, ask how they are feeling, bring small gifts, surprise them. Don't wait to be told what to do.
How do you feel when you hear or think about the word “masculinity”? I don’t have some particular feelings about that. I think I’m very lucky, because the men I grew up with were very protective and gentle. So I think if I had to say some feelings, almost all of them are very positive. I feel protected, loved, cared for. Who were your models of manhood or masculinity when you were growing up? My dad, of course. But he is not the perfect example of the Chinese definition of masculinity. Just like with women, and the unrealistic picture of how sexy women should be like, there is also very poor thinking about how a man should be like. He should be powerful, and be the main provider of the family. I think it’s wrong. The whole society cannot have too high expectations for men or the responsibilities they should have. I think, just treat them as humans. They’re vulnerable, and sometimes they are fragile. A lot of times, they are not capable, actually, just like women. How was your dad different than that “perfect example” of Chinese masculinity you referred to? Not powerful enough (laughs). He is not rich, he is not an official, he doesn’t have a good job. He was quite undereducated. But he did what he could to give me a good life. When did you get sense that your dad wasn’t meeting that standard? I think it was my last year of university. At that time, I was looking for jobs, and a lot of my friends got lots of help from their fathers. But at that point, I realized that my dad cannot
do that for me. At the beginning, being immature, I think I reacted very badly. I blamed him for not being as successful as my friends’ dads. That was the moment I realized that. How has your thinking about men and masculinity changed or evolved over time? After that, I got more opportunities to know more about the world, about men. Then I realized that I was wrong. As a woman, people want me to be sexy, to be understanding, to be polite, to be gorgeous, and I couldn’t meet that standard. So flipping on the other side, I realized that. Do you see men who seem to be harmed by that standard of masculinity? Every day. I have a cousin. We grew up together, and his life is kind of a replica of my dad’s life. it’s a fact that after marriage, the young couple lives with their in-laws, so I think my cousin (who I would rather call my brother, because I was the only child and we were so close), my brother suffered just as my dad did, suffered being stuck between two women: a mother and a wife. It’s heart-breaking for me. What does that suffering look like? I think it’s being tortured by the expectations. From the mother’s side, I think the mother may want her son to be her own. They may feel insecure because their son has started a new life, has a new woman besides him, someone who has a much more intimate relationship with him. And from the wife, I know better because my brother’s wife talks with me. I think she blames my brother for not being able to make a lot of money, not being able to cope with the relationship inside the family. It’s just horrible.
Do you get the sense that he has ways of expressing the pain he’s feeling, and that he has people he can talk to about these struggles, or does he tend to keep these feelings inside? I think Chinese men may deal with it in a similar way. They talk with their male friends, but don’t really have conversations. Just being tough, and laughing about how silly women are, how annoying their mothers and wives are. But I also think it’s getting better, because people are now being more educated. They think more about this stuff. People are now being more understanding. What do you wish more boys and men knew about… Love: From the men I know, I think they are doing fine. On the contrary, from the women’s side, they need to be more realistic. Power: The men in my life are not aggressive at all. I think they’re more relaxed than women (laughs). I worked in a public school, which is a safe, life-long job. I’ve seen one man who was very ambitious. He was the only young man I’ve seen being so ambitious in his career. I know it’s a reality in China that it’s very hard for women to get to the top. But since I don’t care, and the men don’t care, so it’s not a big issue in my life. Do you think men tend to have negative feelings about more ambitious women? Yes. Where do you think that comes from? Ego. I think everyone has an ego. Not just men, also women. It’s a kind of self-importance, identifying yourself as someone of some value. Being compared to the person next to you, you
don’t want to feel inferior. I think it’s common, not just for men. But in the society, we have this thinking that men should be more successful, while women just need to have a good family. So I think that men are more pressured to be more successful in their professional lives and careers. Mental health: I don’t think men in my life need this kind of help. But I do have students, boys, who suffer. But it’s not because they’re boys, it’s because of the family. If you had to give advice to some of those boys about the pressure they face from their families, what would it be? For these boys, it’s not being pressured, it’s being too much indulged or spoiled. In the Chinese society, a family will feel super proud if they can have a boy (laughs). So I think they’re just being weak. This is what will happen if you’re being spoiled. You’re just being too protected and you don’t have a correct understanding of who you are, so when you go out to the big world, you feel frustrated because you’re not educated to be ready for this. Do you have any tips on how boys and men can be better friends, partners, or allies to the girls and women in their lives? If I wanted to give advice, I think it’s for everybody. This is something I’ve just realized recently, from reflection on myself and my own behavior. I think I was being too selfcentered. I have always been told that I am very understanding, very caring, but I realized that actually I didn’t do well enough. I think of other people, but I seldom really put myself on the other side. I think it’s very difficult, or impossible, for somebody to really understand how the other person feels. Like a machine, everybody functions in a different way, because they have these past experiences. So
what an event may evoke, what kind of feelings, are just different. Most of the time, I don’t really have the whole picture of what they’re going through. I’m just too wrapped up in my own world, or too busy with my own survival. I think it’s a universal thing for both boys and girls, regardless of gender. I personally really need to work more on this, to be more understanding. How do you think people can do that? I think it starts with a conversation.
Questions for reflection and discussion Did any of the ideas or perspectives presented in these interviews feel refreshing, comforting, or freeing? Why? Did you find yourself feeling resistant to any of the ideas or perspectives presented in these interviews? Why do you think so? Is there someone in your life who would benefit from considering the ideas and perspectives in these interviews? How do you think you could open up a conversation with them about these topics? Who is someone in your life with whom you would feel comfortable discussing some of the topics covered in these interviews? If you have a conversation with them, reflect on how it clarified, deepened, or complicated your thoughts and feelings about the topics discussed in these interviews. What are some specific things you will do after reading this document to be a better friend, partner, or ally to the girls and women in your life? Who is someone with whom you can share these goals and who can help you stay accountable?