Dating Dialogue

What Would You Do If…

Moderated by Jennifer Mann, LCSW of The Navidaters

Dear I am friendly with a family in my neighborhood. We daven in the same shul and have children around the same ages. One of Navidaters, their sons, I’ll call him Chaim, is about to start shidduchim. He is 23 years old and is learning and going to college part-time. The family is a wonderful family, and I know that they are starting to “listen” to shidduchim for Chaim. I have one concern: Chaim has issues with alcohol. I won’t call him an alcoholic, but he drinks a lot at shul kiddushim, and any time we are at their Shabbos table, he spends the meal takes shots and then ends up at the end of the meal on the couch. To me, that is very concerning.

So I have two questions for the panel: do you feel that I should broach this subject (very delicately – and I would need advice on how to do that) with my friends and mention that their son’s behavior is something that’s not normal and should be addressed? Do I ask someone else to talk to them about it?

Additionally, what should I do when people call me for information on Chaim? Do I tell them my concerns? Do I only mention it if they ask me?

I’d like to hear your thoughts. Sincerely, A concerned neighbor

Disclaimer: This column is not intended to diagnose or otherwise conclude resolutions to any questions. Our intention is not to offer any definitive conclusions to any particular question, rather offer areas of exploration for the author and reader. Due to the nature of the column receiving only a short snapshot of an issue, without the benefit of an actual discussion, the panel’s role is to offer a range of possibilities. We hope to open up meaningful dialogue and individual exploration.

The Panel

The Rebbetzin

Rebbetzin Faigie Horowitz, M.S.

You are right. Chaim’s consumption of alcohol is very concerning. I am pretty sure that the parents, if they are as wonderful as you describe them, are concerned as well. Responsible parents are not passive about an alcohol problem – ever. Therefore, I would not bring it up. They are trying to deal with it, perhaps unsuccessfully. If they bring it up, then you can respond carefully with sensitivity. Be supportive, not confrontational.

Now as to the question about responding to questions in connection with shidduchim for Chaim. There is a halachic issue here. I would therefore consult your rabbi, as this is both a medical issue and a bad habit/addiction issue (depending on severity, which seems serious). He may know more than you do about Chaim’s problem and what his parents are doing about it. He may advise you to punt the question to him. You should definitely ask him for another reason beyond your own response to people who inquire about Chaim. Asking the rabbi of the shul you both attend will also alert him to the fact that you see a problem as a neighbor, not just in shul, and it’s not small.

The Shadchan

Michelle Mond

You know the term, “Good fences make good neighbors”?

The reason for this adage is that nosey neighbors are never appreciated. If you have observed Chaim’s kiddush and Shabbos table drinking habits, I assure you that his parents and loved ones have, too. Do you think his parents don’t see this at their Shabbos table if it happens every week?

It is not the job of a neighbor to make calls (or judgments) – not to mention, it is socially inappropriate. What Chaim does to relax is his business, and if, indeed, it is excessive, his family is already on the case. The last thing a family wants is to have the embarrassment of a phone call alerting them to something they already know.

The past few weeks we have received quite a few letters addressing the topic surrounding making other people’s business your business. If there is ever a question, you can ask a rav, but as a general klal, the best advice I can give you and our readers is to stay in your own lane (you’re less likely to get into an accident that way!).

The Single

Tziporah Klein

Dear Concerned Neighbor,

Everything you reported is your perception of what is taking place. That being said, I am not denying your concerns but rather am highlighting how extraordinarily cautious one needs to be when making assumptions about another’s behavior, attitude, and image. A person’s reputation is the most valuable thing they have. There are multiple stories of people’s lives that have been negatively affected by rumors starting based off perceptions and even well-intended concerns.

I am assuming this boy has a parent who sees his behavior and will address it if it’s concerning. I strongly believe that it is not your responsibility to get involved in his life based on your admitted assumptions. I hope it’s fair for me to assume that you don’t live with him, you don’t spend Shabbos there every week, and you may not know the culture of his circles. Is the behavior healthy? No. Is it possibly common in his social group? Yes. Does that mean he is an alcoholic? Definitely not. Of course, when it comes to answering questions directly from shidduch calls, I always say to ask a rabbi to get the halachic response.

My main intention in responding to your question is to highlight the importance of how careful one needs to be when judging others and making assumptions.

The Zaidy

Dr. Jeffrey Galler

It’s kind of ironic that you gave your neighbor the name “Chaim” when his problem is that he overly enjoys drinking a “l’chaim.”

Your very important letter raises two fundamental issues.

First, is the question about discussing your concerns with the boy’s parents.

On the one hand, it’s hard to believe that the parents are not already quite aware that their son’s drinking is excessive and clearly surpasses acceptable norms. Furthermore, you are certainly aware that unsolicited advice is generally not appreciated. On the other hand, as a good friend and neighbor, how can you ignore trying to be helpful?

My suggestion is to follow the advice of Rabbi Avigdor Miller, zt”l, who often extolled the potential value of anonymous letters. Write an anonymous note to your neighbors, advising something like, “When your son starts to date, make sure that he doesn’t get a reputation for drinking excessively.”

Second, is the question of what to say and what not to say when called for a shidduch reference.

The all-too-easy answer would be to ask a rabbi for his halachic ruling. The problem with that solution, however, is that it wouldn’t be a fair question for the rabbi, because there is absolutely no way to provide him with a full, clear, and accurate report of the situation. The situation has many subtleties, and what you observed was filtered through the lens of your own preconceptions.

This is a far more nuanced and complex question than asking a rabbi if a chicken is kosher, or if you can trust the mashgiach at your cousin’s bar mitzvah.

My suggestion is, when asked, to extol the positive qualities of the young man and his family.

Then, unless the person asks you directly about the boy’s drinking, do not bring up the subject; if they do ask about the boy’s drinking, you can say something like, “After davening, he does join others at the shul kiddush.”

Your letter underscores the value of a young couple spending a few Shabbosim in each other’s homes before making any commitments. There is no substitute to actually observing how potential mates interact with their own families, in their own homes. Personal observation is far more valuable than the “recommendations” of well-meaning friends and neighbors.

The best advice I can give you and our readers is to stay in your own lane (you’re less likely to get into an accident that way!).

Pulling It All Together

The Navidaters

Dating and Relationship Coaches and Therapists

Dear Concerned Neighbor,

Thank you for writing into our panel. You’re in a very delicate position. With all sorts of addictive behaviors and tendencies increasing at an alarming rate, our community is not exempt. It is wise of you not to jump to conclusions and label Chaim an alcoholic, however, you have seen enough to strongly believe that Chaim has an unhealthy relationship with alcohol, and you are probably right. On the one hand, if you say something to Chaim’s parents you stand to lose the friendship. On the other hand, if you do not say something to his parents or to Chaim’s potential future in-laws, you may feel responsible for any future strain or hardship in the young woman’s life brought upon by your omission. I wish there was a simple answer and I could offer you some clear cut advice, but I can’t.

You may want to consider consulting a rav about this. He may be able to guide you and give you the answer you are seeking. Rebbeim are often very familiar with all sorts of issues affecting their congregants and can be intimately involved and/ or helpful in giving you a halachik/ hashkafic perspective on the matter. There are so many people in your uncomfortable shoes, and many rebbeim have heard it all and will tell you, “There is nothing new under the sun,” and offer you a practical, Torah-guided answer.

Getting involved in an area of a friend’s life that she has not invited you to participate in can be very tricky. Parents are often protective of their children and can become highly defensive, even when a well- intentioned friend airs a true concern with the best interest of the child in mind. If your friend has never said anything about Chaim’s drinking to you, she has decided not to include you in this area of her life. And if it weren’t for shidduchim, you most likely wouldn’t say anything.

Should you decide to broach the subject with your friend, you need to be prepared that, at worst, you may lose the friendship. When alcoholism and addiction is present in a family, there is often a lot of very strong denial (which can look very ugly and get very extreme), rationalizations (the justifications and excuses), and avoidance (never speaking with you again because you held up a mirror to a reality that doesn’t want to be seen). Your friend may have no idea Chaim has a problem, she may know and be furious you brought it up, she may know and politely dismiss you, or she may melt into your arms so happy that she has someone to speak with. There is so much unknown, and no way to predict the outcome.

The readership will most likely be divided on this one. Here are the two camps of thought: 1. Do not get involved! Do not say a word. It is not your place. This is a private family issue and getting involved will only upset your friend. When someone calls about a shidduch for Chaim, you can: a. Speak highly of the family and say you don’t know the boy well. Or, b. Tell your friend that you prefer not to be involved in shidduchim. Sometimes a little white lie is OK. It is a healthy boundary that you are allowed to have in place. If your friend asks why, you can deal with the answer and the possible repercussions then. 2. If this is a good friend, lovingly approach her about her son, Chaim. After all, you have been privy to this painful and uncomfortable situation many times over. (She has exposed you to it.) Are you supposed to ignore her son’s pain? Here is a potential script: You know I adore you and your family. There is something that has been weighing heavily on me, and I haven’t known how to bring it up to you. If this isn’t my place, please accept my sincerest apology and know I will never bring it up again. Is Chaim

OK? I noticed that he drinks at shul and Shabbos meals, often to the point of excusing himself and falling asleep on the couch.

I have been worried about him and also worried about you.

Please know that I am here for you if you ever want to talk.

So Concerned Neighbor, you definitely have what to be concerned about: Chaim’s wellbeing, your friend’s wellbeing, and your role in all of this. Ultimately, as anyone who has to been to AA and Al-anon will tell you, you did not create this problem, you are not responsible for this problem, and you cannot cure this problem. You can only do what feels comfortable and right for you. Will you make a boundary for yourself, as in option 1a and 1b? Or, will you put your heart on the line in the name of friendship and concern, risking your

You did not create this problem, you are not responsible for this problem, and you cannot cure this problem.

friend’s negative reaction?

Alcoholism destroys marriages and friendships. It is often a response to trauma and a way of disconnecting from pain. Acknowledging the alcoholism is welcoming back the pain and deeply intolerable feelings the individual needs protection from. Alcoholism can run in families, and often there are other family members abusing as well, though others may keep it hidden. If you decide to say something to your friend and she, in turn, cuts you out, please know that that is a direct result of her trying to protect her son and herself from a reality she doesn’t want others involved in and a reality that she may not be able to herself acknowledge.

Whatever you decide to do, know that you have been put in an impossible situation and feel good about having tried your best to be a loving friend. What happens after is not in your control. Feel good about yourself and know that some situations in life are larger than us and that there is no perfect answer.

Sincerely, Jennifer

Jennifer Mann, LCSW is a licensed psychotherapist and certified trauma healing life coach, as well as a dating and relationship coach working with individuals, couples, and families in private practice at 123 Maple Avenue in Cedarhurst, NY. She also teaches a psychology course at Touro College. To set up a consultation or to ask questions, please call 718-908-0512. Visit www.thenavidaters.com for more information. If you would like to submit a dating or relationship question to the panel anonymously, please email JenniferMannLCSW@gmail.com. You can follow The Navidaters on FB and Instagram for dating and relationship advice.