12 minute read
Dating Dialogue
What Would You Do If…
Moderated by Jennifer Mann, LCSW of The Navidaters
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Dear Navidaters,
My son came back from his third year in yeshiva determined to start dating. This is causing tremendous stress on my marriage since my husband’s business is not doing well and we cannot support him.
Our son really is very independent and will do what he wants at the end of the day. I think we should just go with his plans so that at least he feels we are on his side. He does not have a degree and says he will “figure it out” in regard to parnassa. He also says that many girls’ families are more than happy to support the couple.
My husband thinks this is a recipe for disaster. He says this won’t make our son any more capable, or responsible, and will create a dependency that is unhealthy.
I am stuck between my son and my husband. Any ideas how I can get things in a better place?
Thanks, Bracha
Disclaimer: This column is not intended to diagnose or otherwise conclude resolutions to any questions. Our intention is not to offer any definitive conclusions to any particular question, rather offer areas of exploration for the author and reader. Due to the nature of the column receiving only a short snapshot of an issue, without the benefit of an actual discussion, the panel’s role is to offer a range of possibilities. We hope to open up meaningful dialogue and individual exploration.
The Panel
The Rebbetzin
Rebbetzin Lisa Babich
Hi Bracha,
I hear the conundrum you are in, and it is not an easy one.
First and foremost, I believe it is always important to get guidance in these situations from either a trusted rav or a professional therapist who can guide you on how to navigate everything wisely. However, I will share with you my opinion and insight.
There are two parts to your question. Firstly, you don’t know how to navigate your husband’s and son’s two opposing feelings and views, and secondly, you need to do this all while maintaining your shalom bayis.
The first part I will address the same way I would with anyone who was having a disagreement. There needs to be a compromise. Your son wants to date, and your husband feels it is completely irresponsible at this point in time. I would be honest with my son and let him know how nervous it makes your husband when there is no “plan.” I would try to come up with a plan with the two of them together where everyone feels like their needs are more or less being met. Perhaps he can learn while attending college at night. Maybe he can take on a side job while dating. Maybe he can give your husband a set time that he will start earning a degree by. At the same time, you and your husband can be clear with him as to what you can and can’t afford so that he can enter shidduchim with an honest expectation as to what you and your husband can do for him.
At the end of the day, he is an adult and will make his own decision but at least you both know you are being fully transparent on what the situation is. If he still chooses to date and then ends up realizing in a few years how pressed for money he is, he will have to figure out what to do with his wife. Part of being an adult is making decisions and accepting the consequences of those decisions. it’s not always easy but we can’t protect our children from being adults forever. It is part of adulthood to experience and navigate life situations.
In terms of your shalom bayis with your husband, it is very important that he feels heard. One of the most important things a spouse needs is to feel that their partner is hearing, validating and being machshiv what they say. You can tell your husband that you hear and understand all his concerns and you would like to come to a compromise between him and your son.
When creating a “plan” for your son, ask your husband what are the things that he wants your son to do in order to feel comfortable in letting him get married. Together, everyone can try to come up with a plan that makes everyone feel somewhat satisfied. It may be that not everyone gets exactly what they want in this plan but at least you are trying to compromise and hear everyone’s needs in the most civil way.
Your husband needs to feel like you are a team with him, so it is important that your son understands that there are certain things you need in order to feel comfortable with his dating. The fact that your husband is going through some financial difficulty in his business definitely adds to the stress. This is why it is important for everyone to be honest, open, and upfront about their expectations and intentions and to find a compromise that can allay everyone’s’ fears.
I wish you much hatzlacha.
The Shadchan
Michelle Mond
Let’s put things into perspective. Ka”h, you are married with children, one of which has chosen to start a married life of learning Torah. How fortunate you are! It is very easy to get caught up in the nitty gritty, forgetting that some of our biggest troubles are actually brachos.
In order to get through to your husband, you will have to validate his feelings and concerns. The best way to make him more determined to stand by his position is to stick your foot in the ground in the issue. Take your foot out, and start walking, together. Arm yourself with good points while still validating his perspective. Show your husband that you are truly in this together for the benefit of your son.
Ask your son where he plans to get money to live, as he must have some sort of plan aside for depending on in-laws. Many out-of-town kollels will pay a good stipend for young couples in kollel.
Explain to your son that it’s imperative to get answers to these questions, so that both you and your husband know he has some kind of realistic vision.
When you talk to your son, make sure the questions come from both you and your husband. Use “we” statements, “Dad and I love you very much, and would support your decision to date but would like to hear what your plan is” is one example. Present to him from a united front, so he doesn’t feel that you are on his side and his father is not.
Finally, you must recognize that he is his own person, and he will have to live with the consequences of his actions. From what I hear, the most difficult part of raising kids is watching them grow up and having to watch them learn from their mistakes and navigate without helicopter parents.
When you come to your son united, you have a greater chance of getting through to him. Hatzlacha!
The Single
Tzipora Grodko
Dear Bracha,
You’re a loving mother and a devoted wife. As a wife, your instinct is to support your husband, and as a mother, your desire is to provide for your children. You seem distressed under the notion that your decision will compromise either your husband’s or your child’s needs.
I believe that many readers may oppose what I’m about to share as I type away with humility of my limited knowledge.
I’m not sure if you or your husband really have much power in the decision that
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your son is seeking to make. He is finally independent in his thoughts which determine his major life choices. He is taking responsibility (or learning how to) for the decisions he makes and learning from this new developing life stage. As parents, you can’t really give him “permission” to date or not to date. However, you can set up standards of expectations and clearly express your limitations and concerns.
You can support your husband (most important), while also choosing to support your son. Support can be presented through patience, understanding, and unconditional love, and guidance.
And of course, speaking to a mental health professional is always recommended.
The Zaidy
Dr. Jeffrey Galler
We can all agree that our yeshivas are doing an excellent job teaching the value of Torah and of Torah learning. However, some are doing a very poor job teaching our young men that they will, eventually, need to earn a living and support their families.
Consequently, many of our young men are often clueless about planning for the future. Saying, “When it’s time to do so, I’ll figure it out” is not a viable plan.
Accordingly, your son is only partially correct when he claims, “Many girls’ families are more than happy to support the couple.”
Parents and in-laws will often agree to sacrifice and to help financially, at least initially, but I’m not quite convinced that they’re “more than happy” to do so – especially if the young man has no viable plan for eventual financial independence.
I would like to relate three eye-opening conversations that I had, years ago, with some patients.
Patient #1 was a very religious, extremely personable, highly successful businessman, who was critical of his children’s yeshiva teachers. “It just so happens,” he reported, “that I can afford to buy houses for all 8 of my children. But,” he lamented, “there is absolutely no way in the world that I will be able to buy houses for 64 grandchildren! What are they going to do?”
Patient #2 was a wonderful, hard-working kollel wife, married for 6 years, with 3 children. Without complaints or regrets, she had been working one full-time and one part-time job, while taking care of the household and raising the children.
She started crying when she told me, “I took my oldest to enroll her in my old Bais Yaakov. They told me that they couldn’t accept her because I couldn’t afford the tuition.” On the verge of hysteria, she sobbed to the principal, “I did everything you taught me to do, and now you won’t accept my children?!”
Patient #3 was an Assistant District Attorney of Italian heritage, who had been my patient since he was a little boy. One day, he said, “Dr. Galler, why do so many of your people apply for Medicaid, food stamps, and rent subsidy programs?” And,” he continued, “can you believe that some married mothers actually pretend to be single mothers, so that they’re eligible for spe-
cial subsidies?”
I sheepishly tried to explain that studying for the Rabbinate takes many years of dedication and deprivation, that these programs help couples get through this long education process, and that, eventually, these folks would be tax-paying, loyal citizens, with much to contribute to our society. He gave me a skeptical look.
So, while continuing to dedicate ourselves to Torah, let’s remember, as a community and as individuals, that: “Im ein kemach, ein Torah; im ein Torah, ein kemach.” Without bread there is no Torah; without Torah, there is no bread.
Pulling It All Together
The Navidaters
Dating and Relationship Coaches and Therapists
Dear Bracha,
Thank you for writing! It is always difficult to be in the middle of a serious disagreement between one’s spouse and child. Allegiance to one, or even validation to one party, may severely impact or harm the relationship with the other. So many of us have been in your shoes in one way or another, and I think everyone reading would agree and can empathize. And while we know that as a spouse we must present as a unified front, what in the world does one do when he/she vehemently disagrees with his/her spouse? It’s a very tough spot with no perfect answer.
First and foremost, let’s acknowledge that spouses do not always have to agree or see eye-to-eye. You are allowed to have your own opinion. It’s OK. Let us also acknowledge that you are not responsible to correct the situation. If this issue is getting in the way of your relationship by way of creating enormous tension between the two of you, I’d suggest speaking with a marital therapist to help you navigate this. You cannot change someone’s mind who does not want his mind changed. You may need a third party to help you and your husband through this.
Your son is a determined kind of guy, and he’s going to do what he thinks is best for him. Your husband is doing what he thinks is best for your son. Your position here is not to change this but to accept that you are not responsible to repair this. Your son is an adult. You can ask him exploratory questions such as:
What are your thoughts about being supported by your wife’s family?
Have you thought about the dynamics that ensue when fully supported?
I understand that you are an adult, and you make your own decisions, and I need you to understand that Dad and I cannot help you financially.
And when it comes to conversations with your husband, validate his concerns and highlight your belief that your son is gong to do what he believes is right, and that you can’t convince your son of something, nor do you want to allow this to get in the middle of your relationship with your husband. Invite your husband to therapy.
Your only “job” right now is to get out of the middle. You didn’t cause this situation, and you can’t fix it. You can, however, very lovingly and politely decline the invitation to be in the middle of this. Sincerely, Jennifer
Jennifer Mann, LCSW is a licensed psychotherapist and certified trauma healing life coach, as well as a dating and relationship coach working with individuals, couples, and families in private practice at 123 Maple Avenue in Cedarhurst, NY. She also teaches a psychology course at Touro College. To set up a consultation or to ask questions, please call 718-908-0512. Visit www. thenavidaters.com for more information. If you would like to submit a dating or relationship question to the panel anonymously, please email JenniferMannLCSW@gmail.com. You can follow The Navidaters on FB and Instagram for dating and relationship advice.
