Science of the experiment and the experimenter

Editor : Deepak Desai

September 2010 Year : 5, Issue : 11 Conti. Issue No.: 59

DADAVANI Science of the experiment and the experimenter

Printed, Published & Owned by : Deepak Desai

on behalf of Mahavideh Foundation, 5, Mamtapark Soc., Usmanpura, Ahmedabad - 380014 Gujarat, India.

EDITORIAL It is a matter of celebration and joy that fifteen years have passed for the monthly magazine of Dadavani, and it is entering the sixteenth year. It is the deep inner intent of all who serve in the cause of the ‘Dadavani Magazine’ that mahatmas and seekers receive the satsang of Gnani Purush Dadashri on different subjects continuously, so that they can be fortified with the inner spiritual effort of progressing further on the path of liberation towards final enlightenment.

Food intake, fear, sleep and sexual satisfaction: are four natural instincts. Human states and situations arise due to these four. The results and the effects of engrossment in them, and the dangers due to this engrossment need to be understood through correct scientific understanding.

Who can give one such an understanding? Worldly scientific experiments and pursuits help human beings and life on this earth. They also lead to the development and discovery of that which hurts and destroys life on earth. But this worldly life (sansar) is one experiment (prayog) and the one who lives life (sansari) is an experimenter (prayogi) and an even higher understanding is that, this human body complex (deha) is one experiment and ‘potey – the Self’ is only the experimenter who is separate from the experiment. How can any physical science give such understanding of this incontrovertible principle? Where the physical science is incapable of giving such understanding, there the spiritual scientist can unfold the science of profound secrets on the basis of experiential knowledge, in front of the world, as it is, and by knowing this, we are filled with sheer awe and wonder!

The pudgal (mind-speech-body complex) is ‘an experiment’ and Atma ‘the Self’ is ‘the scientist’; by getting such understanding the science of gnata-gneya (the knower and the objects to be known) unfolds here. Before one had become part of the experiment by ‘doing’ the experiment and by experiment of the Gnani Purush one attains the experience that the ‘experiment – the body complex’ and the ‘experimenter – the Self’ are separate. This world, this worldly life, this body and whatever comes in experience through five senses is the experiment and the Self is completely separate from the experiment as the experimenter. This aahaar-vihaar-nihaar: eating-moving-excretion, all these are the ongoing experiments. ‘The eater eats and the non-eater only knows what is being eaten’; on the basis of this subtle understanding, one can know ‘who is eating the food?’, ‘who is experiencing the taste?’, ‘who is the sufferer?’, thus one can reach at the higher level of experience by understanding this science. Dadashri says, ‘an experimenter’ and ‘the experiment’ are always separate. One has to know and see what is happening in the experiment. The experiment is gneya (that which is to be known) and the Self is a gnata (the knower). Gnata (the knower) remains present if he knows the gneya. It is the nature of an experimenter to know that the experiment is happening. ... continue on next page Subscription : Yearly SubscriptionIndia: 100 Rupees USA: 15 Dollars UK: 10 Pounds 15 Years Subscription India: 800 Rupees USA: 150 Dollars UK: 100 Pounds Printer/Press : Mahavideh Foundation, Basement, Parshvanath Chambers, Usmanpura, Ahmedabad-380014

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In this divine speech of revered Dadashri, wonderful understanding, related to the experimentexperimenter is compiled. It is our ardent prayer that we all can attain this simple and incontrovertible understanding like; ‘who is the eater? Who is the non-eater? Who is the doer-sufferer-knower?

Who is the knower of the one that is the doer-sufferer? What will be the inner state (parinati) in the state of the sufferer (bhokta)? What can one experience if he remains in the state of a gnata as the experimenter? What kind of awakened awareness the Gnani Purush was in as the experimenter? And how can one remain in such awareness? Such simple and incontrovertible understanding will definitely help us all in commencing spiritual effort towards accomplishing our goal. ~ Deepak Desai

Science of the experiment and the experimenter { Please note that ‘S’ Self denotes the awakened Self, separate from the ‘s’ worldly self. The Self is the Soul within all living beings. The term pure Soul is used by the Gnani Purush for the awakened Self, after the Gnan Vidhi. The absolute Soul is the fully enlightened Self. The worldly soul is the self. In the same manner, ‘Y’ You refers to the awakened Soul or Self, and the ‘y’ you refers to the worldly self. This differentiation is unique to critical understanding of the separation of the Self from the self a/k/a the non-Self complex that is accomplished in the Gnan Vidhi of Akram Vignan.}

Awareness attained through the grace of the Gnani Purush Dadashri: I am Atma (Soul), that awareness (laksha) is established, is it not?

Questioner: Yes, it is.

Dadashri: That Atma (Soul) is verily parmatma (Absolute Soul). And it is alakha (that whose awareness cannot be attained) niranjan (free from karma bondage). Such awakened awareness can never be established. Such awareness cannot be established in any sadhu or sannyasin (ascetic). Such awareness can set in when the Gnani Purush washes away sin (karma) and gives the Gnan (Self-realization), otherwise laksha (awareness as, ‘I am pure Soul’) will not establish. And one cannot forget the laksha once it is established. So it is very difficult to maintain the awareness of the state of the Self. It has become possible to remain in the awareness of the Self, which has not happened in any time cycle. Therefore get the work of ultimate liberation done.

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What remains is the settlement of files ‘You – the Self’ are separate and Chandubhai – the relative self is separate. Now merit karma (punyai) will not affect You, nothing will affect. You are gnata-drashtaparmanandi: knower-seer-eternally blissful One, and Chandubhai, the file number one has to bring about settlement of, file number two, three, four, and all.

Now when Chandubhai gets hungry, file number one gets hungry so You are the neighbor and therefore You have to go along with him. But You have to settle with equanimity.

If you were to visit someone’s home for a meal and if pooranpodi (sweet wheaten pancake stuffed in with mash of jaggery, and split pulse boiled together) is being eaten, and if it is undercooked or not well cooked and if it has vegetable ghee then ‘You’ have to tell Chandubhai, ‘Just eat half so she will not get offended and be careful otherwise your stomach will hurt. It is undercooked and besides there September 2010

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is vegetable ghee.’ You should say like this to Chandubhai, because You are the knower and Chandubhai is the eater. And if it is well cooked and applied with pure ghee then You have to tell Chandubhai that ‘eat two to three and go to sleep.’ If it is good then You should tell him. You—the awakened One, are there to give him advice. Now as an adviser, as a neighbor, You have to help him as much as a neighbor would. If a neighbor cries then You do not have to start crying. You have to pat his shoulder in front of a mirror and say, ‘I am with you, why are you doing like this?’

In the worldly life the crier will cry, the troublemaker will create trouble, eater will keep eating, what concern do You have in all that?

Now the Self is no longer the eater Do you eat everyday or just once in a while?

Questioner (Mahatma): I do not eat at all.

Dadashri: He does not eat. I do not eat either. Do you ever eat? (to a seeker)?

You just drank tea and ate breakfast too. And these people (mahatmas) do not eat at all. If they eat then it will create bondage for them.

Whatever people see, what you see, these people eating but they have not eaten.

Who is the one who eats and who is the one who does not eat, the one who has such separation, the one who has such awareness, he can become Atma (the Self). The one who experiences such separation naturally, the one who has such awareness naturally, can indeed become the Self.

Questioner: This is very profound talk.

Dadashri: They have never eaten. If you see them as eaters then you will be at fault.

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Questioner: How can it happen?

Dadashri: He is the non-eater. We— The Gnani Purush are the non-eater and if you say to us that ‘you are the eater’, ‘you are the eater’ then you will be at the fault. You should have asked me before you said anything. You can tell other people in this world, you can tell the ascetics that, ‘You are eating’. They will also say that, ‘Yes, we do eat.’ They will say, ‘We want to renounce this.’

(To a mahatma) Do you want to renounce anything?

Questioner (Mahatma): It has fallen off from within.

Dadashri: How? Is it like a hook of a wagon that got released? The belief fractured completely. The belief which was wrong, ‘I am this only’, what you used to see, ‘I am this body only’, that belief has fractured and I am the Atma (the Self) has been established; and that this is a file, is also decided.

The eater eats and I, the ‘non-eater,’ am the knower of this. Everything is decided.

The eater and the knower function separately That is why we say that the eater eats and I, the ‘non-eater,’ am the knower of this.

Chandubhai (the self, relative self) ate full bowl of mango rus—pulp juice, he had added dry ginger too, he had added three spoon-full of ghee too. You – the Self, would know all this and he (Chandubhai) will eat. The knower knows and the doer keeps doing. The old one (before Self-realization) was the knower and the doer; he would say, ‘I know that I stuffed all the mango rus and I ate it too. Now the matter (jada- inanimate, non-Self complex) and the Self (chetan) are separated.

Questioner: Yes, the non-eater does not eat. He does not have any concern. The 3

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eater, this pudgal (the non-Self complex) ate and this pudgal released.

Dadashri: ‘The Self’ is the non-eater so it only knows what the pudgal eats.

Someone says, ‘I ate’. But prove it. This is a hundred percent mistake. You the eater are eating and I the non-eater ‘see’ and ‘know’ it as it is. Therefore the doership is destroyed.

Your doership is there as long as there is ego.

But I know that no one is the doer. Whatever you experience in the Gnan (Self-knowledge), which I have given to you is the experiential knowledge. You will know as and when you will experience.

The Self knows the worldly interacting self If you gulp away the food, then what can You know within? The Self will move away. The knower will move away. The eater will eat and the knower will know what is added and what is not added in the preparation. That also not the original Soul; the worldly self would know this and the original Soul knows what the worldly self does too. The Shuddhatma (pure Soul) given to You is the superior of all.

How does the one who is not Selfrealized know?

Questioner: Dada, the one who has not attained this Gnan, he also understands very minutely that this food is salty, this is sour, this one has less sourness, this one has more tartness, so then who is the gnata (the knower) over there?

Dadashri: It is the intellect (buddhi) over there.

Questioner: So the real knower is the one who has the upayoga (applied awareness of the Self) over the intellect, is that so? This one will say that whatever I ate just now, it is sour, it is salty, it has such taste, he will know 4

all such things; this the agnani (the one who has not attained Gnan), know too, so then that knower is verily the intellect, isn’t it? So if the intellect is the knower in an ignorant person then who is that knower in a mahatma an enlightened one?

Dadashri: Pragnya (energy of the Self that is awakened in the Gnan Vidhi and leads the awakened one to final liberation).

Questioner: The differentiation of taste is happening verily through the intellect, isn’t it?

Dadashri: That awareness is there. The Self does not taste anything. When the taste (swad) arises within, who is suffering (bhogavey) the pleasure of that taste? The one who knows the sufferer of the taste is the Self.

Questioner: But that happens to the agnani too that he says that the food is being chewed properly through these teeth. I am hurting a little here, he knows all that so then after this Gnan, the action of the knower, the actions of all knowing that also can be done by that intellect, like it happens in an ignorant person, is that right?

Dadashri: Intellect does that.

Questioner: Yes. So then after Gnan, it is the act of knowing.

Dadashri: He cannot become separate (in agnani). This, the Self, after the Gnan Vidhi, can remain separate through Gnan—the knowledge of the Self.

The knower and the sufferer are separate but…

Questioner: So after Gnan the one who is gnata, he is the knower over the one who knows all these, is that so?

Dadashri: They (those who have not September 2010

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attained Gnan) cannot know that they are gnata (the knower). They can understand that they are bhokta (sufferer of pleasure or pain); they cannot understand beyond this.

Questioner: How is it after this Gnan?

separate, so separation starts to happen.

The result of becoming the sufferer Questioner: If that knower becomes the sufferer, then what will be the result?

Dadashri: Bhokta and gnata both remain. Bhokta (sufferer of pain or pleasure) is separated in the Gnan Vidhi and the awakened One comes in the state of gnata (the knower). Therefore one does not become one with bhokta. He simply ‘sees’. After Gnan, ‘the Self’ never becomes a bhokta.

Dadashri: Result, what else can happen? Awakened awareness (jagruti) will become dim.

Questioner: The agnani (without knowledge of the Self), himself would be a bhokta. He would never be a gnata, would he? But on the basis of intellect he can know certain things. But he cannot ‘taste’ the real thing.

Questioner: He may remain in the state of the sufferer (bhoktapada) too.

Dadashri: The knower is not separate in the agnani. He cannot experience the real taste. The knower (jaananaro) and the suffer (bhogavnaaro) are mixed.

Questioner: In mahatmas, the knower and the sufferer are separate.

Dadashri: They are separated in you but you end up suffering the pleasure. So what does it say?

Questioner: Yes. We are surely gnata (knower) but we do become bhokta (sufferer).

In mahatmas, one leaves the state of a gnata (gnatapada) and gets in to the state of the sufferer (bhoktapada).

For You, You are not getting into the state of the sufferer (bhoktapada), are You? For You, he remains in the state of the knower (gnata), does he?

Dadashri: How come you become a sufferer (bhokta) without being married? Are you becoming a bhokta of all these cashews that you eat or delicious kadhee (yogurt soup) that you drink? What else? Does the state of the sufferer (bhoktapanu) arise in brushing the teeth?

Questioner: How can he know that he has entered into a state of the sufferer (of pleasure or pain)?

Dadashri: One will feel satisfaction (santosh), will he not? You can see satisfaction on his face and if the state of suffering (bhoktapada) is bitter then his face will become angry.

Questioner: So will he feel the effects (asar), if he goes in the state of the sufferer?

Dadashri: He does come out a little again, slowly and slowly since the original thing is separate. Original Self is separate.

Dadashri: Not effect, but he will feel that much satisfaction and he will feel that much dissatisfaction too.

Questioner: So separation starts to happen in a way!

Questioner: And if he does not stay in bhoktapada then what happens?

Dadashri: Yes. One has known that bhokta (sufferer) and gnata (knower) are

Dadashri: No satisfactiondissatisfaction, both do not happen.

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Questioner: So to have the satisfaction in the state of the sufferer, for the effects of satisfaction-dissatisfaction to happen and prakruti (the mind-body-speech complex) also has its own independent effects, does it not?

Dadashri: If there is the state of the sufferer (bhoktapada) then he will have both effects on the body complex and if the state of the knower (gnatapada) remains then there will be no effects.

How can one remain longer in the state of the knower?

Questioner: How should it be for the mahatma so that he can stay longer time in the state of the knower (gnatapada)? How can it be possible that one would not enter in the state of the sufferer (bhoktapada) and can remain longer time in the gnatapada?

Dadashri: Once he knows, he can remain. He would know. As long as one does not know about this state, he will not enter it.

One has to only know this. Nothing else. One needs to understand. There is not any action required for this.

Questioner: By what method can one know this knowing state?

Dadashri: When ‘we’ talk about this in satsang, it lets you know about the original fact.

Questioner: So is it when I know, ‘Who is this sufferer’ and ‘who am I’?

Dadashri: Who is the sufferer? The one who was the doer, he had a desire to enjoy therefore he did this and he only will be the enjoyer. Why did the doer do it? He did it because of the desire to enjoy. So he verily will enjoy that.

When one becomes an intense sufferer (pleasure or pain), the intellect stops. And it 6

will decrease its knowing function. The intellect can know more when the state of suffering (pleasure or pain) bhoktapada is less intense and acute. Then that intellect will understand and will tell you in detail that it was like this and the intense sufferer will say, ‘I did not know about the cardamom at all in the food item’.

The Self knows all kinds of knowledge Who all within are eating this ice-cream?

Separate them individually. Who ate it? Who tasted it? Who experienced? Who suffered the pleasure (bhogavyo)? Who knew? And ice-cream is one only.

Now the one who has not eaten icecream at all, if we give him ice-cream in dark then he will continue imagining that the icecream is of a cold nature. Will the nature of milk also be cold? Will the nature of cardamom also be cold? But the one who has done the analysis of all the ingredients that are in the ice-cream with the intellect, he can separate on the basis of the properties of all the ingredients and he will know why the ice-cream is cold, and that he can know through intellect based experience. When the element of intellect does so much work in the worldly life then what is it that the element of the Self cannot know? It is the direct light.

Who has the energy of discerning the taste?

We are sitting here in dark at night and someone comes and says, ‘Take this prasad (food offered to deity and taken by devotees after worship).’ Then you say, ‘Hey, I can’t see your hand.’ So then he tries to look at your face and says, ‘Let me put it in your mouth, open your mouth.’ So he puts shrikhand (sweetened creamy yogurt prepared with nuts and saffron) in your mouth. Then he asks you, ‘What is this?’ Then will you tell him September 2010

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in the dark or not? You cannot see even then you can tell?

Questioner: The tongue will tell. We can know inside that what we ate.

Dadashri: You have not seen, not done, but still you can understand, can you not? You will say that it is shrikhand, will you not?

Besides what was in that? Then you would say, ‘There were sugar crystals (saakar)’.

What else was there? Then you would say, ‘There was almond too.’ What was the third thing? Then you would say, ‘There was pistachio.’ What was the fourth one? Then you would say, ‘There was cardamom.’ What was the fifth one? Then you would say, ‘Yes, there was dried green grape.’

And there is little more sugar or less sugar, can you know or not? See, you cannot see yet how much do you know? There is nutmeg too. You can taste such thing. You can tell right away, you can tell everything in detail.

It is dark and yet how did you know? Eyes have not seen. The answer is, that there is the evidence of awareness (jagruti) behind all five senses.

Now You are the knower. The knower is not the sufferer (bhogavnaar). The knower is the knower.

Questioner: That is right. The knower is the knower.

Dadashri: See the energy of the Atma (the Self). Any other senses have not seen.

The moment you put it on the tongue, the Self said that this is in this. How much energy the Atma has! The Atma is full of such infinite energies.

After all The Self is the experimenter No matter how much moha (illusory attachment) one has but still he will look for September 2010

shrikhand at night. Shrikhand is gneya (that which is to be known) and that You are the gnata (the knower). What happens through the knowledge of Gnata, gneya? It will tell all the ingredients are used in that dish.

Questioner: Yes, it can tell everything.

Dadashri: And if the shrikhand smells a little and if it was left in a pot which had effect of asafoetida (hing) then you would say, ‘It seems that a little hing is added in this.’ The preparer of shrikhand will say, ‘I haven’t added hing’, its effect is due to its old contact with the vessel used in preparing icecream. Now how many investigations one does? Can one not know everything? So then what kind of a machine is there that everything is known? This is because after all, the Self is the experimenter and that is why one knows.

Questioner: An experimenter does not sleep and therefore he can know.

Dadashri: Yes, he can know, he can know everything. He remains vigilant.

Therefore he knows even in dark. So then I would tell him why all such things happen, why the separation of the ingredients happens even in the dark? How come he has so much capacity? Then I would say, ‘In spite of being absorbed in such an illusory attachment (moha) for ice-cream, the experimenter does not leave his nature of an experimenter. In spite of being in this much murchha (delusion)! That is why I speak ‘after all’, don’t I? No matter how many worldly attachments are there, even by subtracting all those he is an experimenter. After all he is an experimenter. What is the meaning of ‘after all’? After all, in spite of having all these means of worldly attachment, he is verily an experimenter.

Gnayak knows the gneya What if someone puts a lump of 7

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shrikhand in your mouth in the dark night?

You will know everything about it, will You not? And you would say, ‘Hey, everything is there for sure, but I think there is a clove too.’

Hey, a clove cannot be there in shrikhand.

Then he would say, ‘No, it must have dropped in but I think there is a clove.’ One will find out that which you cannot imagine. And how does one attain this knowledge (gnan) within without a light?

Questioner: Who knows that there is a taste of clove in it; who knows that?

Dadashri: The gnayak (the knower).

Questioner: The gnayak knows that first; and is it because of ignorance one does the egoism?

Dadashri: It is for people who are not mahatmas.

Questioner: But for them also, the light of that gnayak is there too, isn’t it?

Dadashri: No, they do not have gnayak. Gnayak will not arise at all.

Questioner: So how do they have this ‘knowing state’? They find out correctly that this is a clove only, this is cardamom and it is little stale.

Dadashri: That is ego.

when ‘we—The Gnani Purush and the fully enlightened One within’ give you Gnan? And that one is the light of only Chandubhai who believes, ‘the one who gives the light is verily I and I can see the light too’. However here, it is the light of the Self. The innate nature of the Self is the gnayak (the knower).

Questioner: But one would have analyzed the taste of cardamom that ‘this is called cardamom, the taste of cardamom would be like this,’ after then only he realizes that this is cardamom, does he not?

Dadashri: Yes, of course.

Questioner: So to understand this there is intellect, is it not?

Dadashri: The Self has awareness of all kinds of lights. Intellect has awareness of only that which it tastes.

Questioner: But Dada, the light of the Self knows everything, but for the relative things, for which it does not have the knowledge and familiarity even then it can explain?

Dadashri: The Self is the knower of the Self and the non-Self. The relative is called para (the non-Self) and the real is called swa (the Self). It knows all. It illuminates the Self and the non-Self.

Questioner: The light, knowledge, it is of the Atma (the Self), is it not?

The one who suffers is the ego only

Dadashri: It is through the light of intellect.

Questioner: Dada, so does it mean that the one who says that ‘I enjoyed eating this’ is the ego?

Questioner: People have through the light of intellect and for mahatmas, there is the light of the Self; what is the demarcation there? How can we know about that?

Dadashri: The light of intellect means it is the light of ego and this light of the Self is egoless (nirahamkar). Does ego not leave 8

Dadashri: Ego verily suffers (bhogavey) the pleasure or pain in all this. After putting shrikhand in the mouth, when the taste comes at that time when we check it out that who is the one that tastes this flavor? I am ‘Shuddhatma – pure Self’, then You know that, O ho ho! The ego enjoys all this! Why September 2010

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The one who prepares kadhee (thick greenish yellow spicy soup made with buttermilk and gram flour) and the kadhee, are these two separate or one?

Dadashri: This worldly life (sansar) means it is an experiment (prayog), and a worldly person (sansari) means one is an experimenter (prayogi). So the experimenter is performing this experiment. The preparer of kadhee is preparing kadhee. Similarly this worldly person (sansari) is doing the experiment of the worldly life. So he puts all the things in that. He puts this, he puts that, he puts ladoo (sweet ball), he puts dhokda (kind of light dish made from mixed flour), he puts handvo (spicy cake made from mixed flour), he puts everything. What kind of experiment happens in there? He will say ‘I have gas (indigestion) trouble’. Then he will yell that I got gas trouble, I have problem with pitta (be affected by bile and have headache), I got cough, I got fever, but who got this fever? The experiment (the non-Self complex) got the fever, it does not happen to us (the experimenter)? And then if the kadhee is boiling and overflows, then what if you try to lift away the vessel with your hand?

Questioner: They are separate.

Questioner: We can get burnt.

Dadashri: Kadhee and the one who makes kadhee, kadhee is the experiment. Is kadhee not the experiment? These scientists may have a big experiment; similarly these people must have this kadhee as an experiment too. And when it comes to a boiling point eighteen times, then it is considered that kadheepaak (cooked well) is done. That one is doodhpaak (sweet dish of milk and rice), similarly this became kadheepaak. So this kadheepaak is also an experiment, isn’t it?

Dadashri: This is how, when it overflows, people stick their hands—interfere in the worldly life. You have to take out the burning wood from underneath or decrease the heat below! Can you handle hot kadhee with your hands?

Questioner: Yes. It is an experiment.

Questioner: Yes, that is why we were burning.

the ego got taste in this? The ego had done the bhavna (desire) that ‘I want this’, ‘I want such a thing’, so he got it, therefore he got delighted and he got delighted so then he felt elated. However all this is of the ego only.

Mind, intellect, chit, all these are his ‘helpers’.

Whatever it is, it is to the ego.

There is no harm if you liked the food, if you become tanmayakar (to become the form of the body and the mind, to become the non-Self, engrossed, to ‘become’ Chandubhai) there is no harm in that either. But one should have awakened awareness (jagruti) in that.

The Self does not become one (tanmayakar), ego becomes one (tanmayakar).

Life is an experiment, You are the experimenter

Dadashri: Is this an ordinary thing? So if the experimenter is smart then only he can cook good kadhee, can he not?

Questioner: Yes, then only he can cook well.

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Questioner: No. Dadashri: So until now, were you taking it by sticking your hands like that: before meeting me?

Dadashri: Now what if we take out the wood logs?

Questioner: Then nothing can happen.

The kadhee will stop overflowing.

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Dadashri: Then if it is boiling and about to spill despite taking off the heat, you can try something else, like adding some water, can you not?

Questioner: Yes. Dadashri: What if we try to remove the boiling kadhee with our hand?

Questioner: We can get a burn.

Dadashri: This is how this world gets burnt, and not only that but their faces are also spoiled.

Questioner: Yes. Dadashri: Would anyone be doing like that? Would anyone do such a thing with his hand if the kadhee is overflowing?

Questioner: No. Experiment is for seeing and knowing This worldly life means it is an experiment. And a worldly person (sansari) means the one who does an experiment. The experiment and the one who does an experiment, these two are separate. Now he has to continue seeing that experiment that he added this, he added that. When we put baking soda in certain dish it swells up on cooking.

Why it happened like this, why the color of this turned green, why the color of this turned yellow; this turned yellow because we put turmeric powder. We should know all that.

And why did the kadhee overflow? It is because the logs are burning heavily that is why kadhee is overflowing. When the kadhee overflows, our people would not know how to stop, and therefore they try to remove kadhee (pot) through their hands. Therefore the one who is doing experiment sticks his hand in the experiment and then says I got burnt. Hey mooah—the dying one! This experiment is separate! Experiment is for seeing 10

and knowing.

Never leave the realm of the experimenter Questioner: When the quarrel comes from outside, even at that time we have to pay attention the same way? Do we have to stay as an experimenter or as a knower-seer (gnata-drashta)?

Dadashri: If there is a quarrel, then that quarrel is also of the experiment. It is not ours. Quarrel ceases; that is also of the experiment and quarrel arises; that is also of the experiment. Mutual fight happens in a quarrel that is also the experiment and if someone offers a floral garland that is also the experiment.

Questioner: We have to put a full stop after offering a floral garland, don’t we?

Dadashri: No, the experiment happens by itself, the experiment will continue automatically. Your position is as the experimenter. Do not leave that and if you will stick your hand in the experiment then you will burn severely. The scientist will never stick his hand in the experiment. When he adds something in the experiment and if it turns green then he will understand that such result came in this, and then he adds something else, and if then he does not get restless and interfere in it, he will see the result of that experiment. He will not stick his hand thinking that it is ruined.

But our people will put their hands, and that is the only difference.

What should be the awareness of the experimenter?

Now we put all different chemicals while we are doing an experiment in the science laboratory, now do we check that ingredient by sticking our finger in it or by using pipettes and other instruments?

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Questioner: By using instruments.

Dadashri: So this is an experiment. You do not have to stick your hand in this. You are sticking your hand and then you are yelling.

You have to see scientifically and add ingredient by using the appropriate instrument. Now one will not forget in that in an experiment. That experiment is obvious, you can see through eyes whereas this experiment is not visible through eyes; this is why one makes a mistake.

This is also an experiment only. One has to continue seeing what is happening in the experiment. Before one had become part of the experiment form (prayog) while doing the experiment and now (after Gnan) the experiment and an experimenter both are separate. But after becoming separated if one sticks his hand then how will it work? People would also reprimand, they will say, ‘Hey, what kind of scientist have you become?’ What do you think? Did you understand? I have done the separation. The experimenter and the experiment, you had become one so I have done separation. You are an experimenter and this one is the experiment. You have to continue seeing the experiment, it turned green, it turned red, it turned like this, it turned like that. So we have to add some other spice in that, but we should not stick our finger in that. Before we used to stick in that, since we were not aware. Now after becoming aware, if we do like this then it is our mistake, is it not? Would the experiment and the experimenter be one or separate?

Questioner: They would be separate.

We are separate and the experiment is separate Dadashri: That is all. Before that you had become one. ‘I am verily Chandubhai.’

Hey, Chandubhai is the experiment. How many things come together in Chandubhai and form September 2010

blood, flesh, stool? Are we the one with that stool? We are not. We are separate and this experiment is separate. Don’t people say that ‘you ate potato so it caused gas (in stomach)?’

So then mooah, it is the experiment. So you should know, now toss some dry ginger powder in your mouth. Our people do eat mango, don’t they? Hey, it is flatulent, it causes gas then why are you eating mango? He will say, ‘I have added this much dry ginger powder in it.’ In a way he knows that all this is an experiment. An experimenter and the experiment, both are verily separate.

Would the experiment (prayog) and the experimenter (prayogi) be separate or one?

‘Chandu’ is an experiment and the Self is the experimenter. Now one has believed the experiment to be an experimenter. In the experiment the ingredient has to be added or taken out. However in the case of the experimenter there is no influx-output (purangalan). In this experiment (the body complex) one has to put food and discharge (galan) has to be done in toilet and bathroom. You and Chandubhai, two are separate. It is just that ‘You – the Self’ have become one (tanmayakar) with the experiment (the nonSelf complex), You have become that form (tadroop). All the thoughts, which arise on the basis of depression or elevation, are wrong.

Only the thoughts which arise in normality, are correct. Lord Krishna called the experiment a kshetra (location, the current field) and the experimenter (an experimenter) being a kshetragnya (the field of ‘knowing’; the energy of the Self; knower-seer of the prakruti). ‘The Self’ is a kshetragnya.

The experimenter gets lost in the illusion of the experiment ‘You’ are the experimenter, the Self (prayogi). So then, this is a ‘Chandu’—the experiment (prayog) You have to add and do 11

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everything in the experiment, in proportion; this experiment is verily going on. Therefore the experimenter is the Self. The Self got caught up in the illusion of the experiment and therefore lost the awareness of the Self. He will try to stick his hand in the experiments. Now if you are boiling something by adding two ingredients and if you stick your hand in that then what can happen? One can know in that actual experiment but here one does not know and that is why he is trying to stick his hand.

Separation is not experienced then. ‘I am separate’, one will not experience that, will one?

Questioner: Who is the original experimenter?

Dadashri: The Atma (the Self) is verily the experimenter. We had just said this in that language to explain that the experimenter is separate from the experiment. So we are saying this to explain that this experimenter is separate from this experiment. The Self is the experimenter. This is for you to understand and not for comparison.

Questioner: Just as the experimenter is separate from the experiment, similarly is the physical body separate from the Atma (the Self)?

Dadashri: This body is an experiment, and the Self is separate from that. Do not interfere in that.

This is a science. If you do different from what you were asked to do in the science class, then a totally different kind of experiment will happen!

The whole world is doing experiment and the Self is the experimenter, what can happen if one sticks his hand in the experiment? In the experiment, whatever you add, You have to keep seeing the results, 12

nothing else to be done! Instead one says, ‘I really enjoyed.’ One becomes trapped the moment he said this. The experiment and the experimenter became one.

You are Shuddhatma, the experimenter and you have done all these experiments outside, that you add yogurt, salt, buttermilk, you add all that. What happens inside, it causes gas, cough, you are to keep seeing all these results. Instead ‘I verily am’, ‘I verily am’, ‘I verily am’, so you missed seeing the result.

And on the top of what will one say? I do and I know. I did this too and I knew this too.

Hey mooah, the doer and the knower will never be one. There somewhere mixture has happened. Therefore it has become mishrachetan (mixture of the Self and the nonSelf). It is a mishrachetan but the symptom would appear like a chetan (living element; the Self), but there is no chetan whatsoever.

So it is necessary to understand this talk very minutely.

Experimenter! Continue seeing the experiment Similarly whatever we keep adding in our body like food, drinks, everything is the experiment, see and know that. And quarrel that happens that is also the experiment. See and know that too. This experiment which is going on, see and know that. ‘You’ are the experimenter, not the experiment. So what needs to be seen?

Questioner: We have to continue seeing whatever happens.

Dadashri: If someone were to insult Chandubhai even then You are to see Chandubhai’s face, and see the face of the insulter too. The one who sees the faces of both is called the experimenter.

Questioner: He is a real experimenter.

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Dadashri: He is a real experimenter.

Now this talk is not difficult, is it?

Questioner: No, it is not difficult.

Dadashri: It is not unsolvable, is it?

Questioner: No. Dadashri: But why it had not become solvable?

Questioner: We need someone who can show this to us, don’t we? Everything was written in a book that by doing this way, this will happen, but…

Dadashri: Nothing can happen, can it?

It is not written anywhere that the experiment (life) and an experimenter (the one ‘living’ the life) are separate. It is only one. One says, ‘I am verily this.’

Questioner: So Dada, whatever we eat, do we have to continue seeing it as an experiment, the food that we put in our body?

Dadashri: People do say that too that, I have a gas (in my stomach). I said, ‘Why?’ Then he says, ‘I have eaten potato.’ You know this experiment, then mooah, why are you saying that you have a gas (indigestion)? Now he is separate and You are separate. You ate dhokda and got diarrhea then mooah, You know what happened in the experiment. You know that by eating dhokda you got diarrhea and again are You the experimenter! Will one not say like this?

Questioner: One will say that, everybody does the same.

Dadashri: You drank tea so you could not sleep. Hey mooah, You know the experiment that you drank tea therefore you could not sleep. So ‘you could not sleep’ is the experiment and ‘you drank tea’ that is also the experiment, You just know. Now if You want him to sleep then ask him to stop drinking September 2010

tea. Do not put tea in this experiment.

Do not become the experiment Questioner: But that taste will be there, everything is eaten because of the taste only, isn’t it?

Dadashri: Taste means to stick your hand in the experiment. Do you still feel the taste in the experiment?

Questioner: In some matters of eating I forget at the time of eating.

Dadashri: What do you forget?

Questioner: It is when the food is delicious.

Dadashri: But haven’t I said that if it is delicious then eat with grandeur and relish.

But do not forget that this is the experiment.

Questioner: Right, I should not forget that this is the experiment.

Dadashri: Otherwise how can You know, if you do not eat with grandeur?

Therefore, I said that eat with grandeur and taste. What was I trying to say? If we say that it is wrong to enjoy while you are eating and if you do not eat appreciating the taste, then how can you know that what is or what is not in that dish?

Questioner: One cannot know.

Dadashri: So you will be fooled. You have to know everything in the experiment, that there was almond, and other things. So you should eat with appreciation of taste. I eat everything with so much appreciation of taste, be it the khichdee (rice and lentil mixed) and kadhee, but I eat with appreciation of taste. I eat khichdee-kadhee with such a taste that you would not eat with doodhpaak. But I do not become the experiment, I remain as an experimenter only.

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Let it go after tasting the taste Questioner: So one ends up over eating because of the taste; at that time will one remain an experimenter?

Dadashri: Taste is a part of the experiment, what concern do we have in that?

An experimenter and the experiment should remain separate or not? What this understanding is telling you?

Questioner: Yes, they should remain separate.

Dadashri: Now what does the real justice say? It says that allow the food to go in the stomach after tasting the taste. This is shrikhand, what is the point in swallowing just like that? Is it because it will not cling to you! So the experimenter—the knower just moves away. Now these people do not know about this thing at all.

Questioner: Will it not do if one remains absent minded?

Dadashri: We cannot let it go without the presence of the mind at all. If mind remains absent for a little while then we can let it go, but chit should not remain absent. It is the chit that is working when one is eating shrikhand, that what are the ingredients in the shrikhand? At that time chit sees and says that there is cardamom, and it is in powder form. It will say there are one or two whole grains of cardamom too. Can one know if he eats this?

Questioner: Yes, one can.

Dadashri: That is the chit which is working. There is the presence of chit.

Bliss is spontaneously present for the experimenter Questioner: Yes, right, so the reason for experiencing bliss (anand) in the experiment 14

may be is verily that perhaps?

Dadashri: Bliss (anand) does not exist in the experiment at all. There would be pleasure (shata) and pain (ashata) in the experiment. For a while there is experience of pleasure (sukha) and for a while there is experience of pain (dukha). That which is comfortable is pleasant and that which is uncomfortable is painful. Sometimes when you stick your hand—interfere, it will start burning and sometimes it will feel cool.

Questioner: One feels happy for a while or he feels unhappy by sticking his hand in the experiment.

Dadashri: In that, when it is pleasant, he becomes happy and when it is painful, he becomes irritated and upset. So then mooah, leave it alone! You cannot stick your hand in the experiment at all.

Questioner: He can attain bliss if he refrains from sticking his hand in the experiment, can he not?

Dadashri: Then he can attain absolute bliss (parmanand). He is not likely to stick his hand but he observes people sticking their hand. He will say, ‘Why should I be left out?’

So he does by observing people around. If all these experimenters do not stick their hands, then he will not do so either. But this is just that people have the habit that they have been sticking their hand in the experiment and they continue to teach that to others.

What happens when the experimenter becomes the experiment?

Questioner: So if we do not stick our hands while we are doing the experiment, then pleasure experience (sukha) and pain experience (dukha) will not be there?

Dadashri: Not to stick the hand means, September 2010

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for such a one there is nothing like pleasure or pain. It is called shata (pleasure) and ashata (pain). Shata ashata, but in our rural language we call it sukha and dukha. If pleasure and pain does not arise then such a one will be in constant absolute bliss parmanand. And the one for whom the pleasure experience sukha arises (experiment), he will encounter the experiment of pain experience dukha and because pain has arisen, the experience of pleasure will arise again. So an experimenter became a form of the experiment so as a result suffering came.

Questioner: The one who was a boss himself became a servant. He became a servant at the place of a boss.

Dadashri: No, not so. A boss or a servant does not have any concern in this. The experimenter and the experiment, these two can never become one. The whole world would accept this. Everybody would accept this. Nobody would say that kadhee and the one who cooks kadhee, both are same.

Kadhee is separate and you are separate.

Have you cooked yourself? Would you stick your hand in kadhee when it overflows?

Questioner: Who would do like that after you give the Gnan? No one would do that after you explain in detail…

Dadashri: One will find excuse afterwards that kadhee was overflowing. Then we would say that remove the firewood when it overflows. Understand its knowledge.

Remove the firewood, and if you are not able to remove the firewood, and if it is possible to get burnt if you stick your hand in since woods are still burning and if you do not have pair of tongs, then pour water quickly. One should know the solution for this. Therefore if you will become the experimenter then You will know the solution. If you become the September 2010

experiment form then you will not know the solution.

The experiment is within the confines of Vyavasthit Questioner: If one becomes the experiment then he will get pleasure-pain; that is all! Will he have to suffer any other consequence?

Dadashri: Receiving pleasure-pain means seeds (of karma) are planted and because seeds are planted, the worldly life (sansar) started again. Sansar started forever.

Once the bliss of the Self is attained then the seeds that cause karma are not planted. Now I have done such a thing for You that You can stay in your own bliss. Yet for one life mistakes may occur a little but it will settle exactly in the second life. And ‘we’ have given You the Gnan of vyavasthit (scientific circumstantial evidence). We have said to You—the experimenter that ‘we’ have given You such a Gnan of vyavasthit that your experiment will not get spoiled beyond this.

The habit has formed since time immemorial therefore…

Questioner: So where are we making a mistake in this experiment?

Dadashri: ‘You’ are the experimenter, but at that time You lose that awareness. This is because You have that habit from time immemorial, of sticking your hand in kadhee and then yelling. And then in summer you would have formed a habit of using ice, so that you feel cool and that habit also had been formed.

We—the Gnani Purush feel cool, but that is not a habit and that other one of interfering is also not a habit.

Questioner: So we run this fan for cool air, is that the same kind of habit?

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Dadashri: All that is a habit only. There is no problem in using a fan but while using a fan, to say, ‘ah! How pleasant!’ is the problem. Once the expression of satisfaction arises, you became absorbed in the experiment. You are to remain as the experimenter. That means You have to say, ‘Oho, Chandubhai says ‘haash’, so Chandubhai had the satisfaction santosh.’

Stomach does not bind one, taste binds Questioner: What happens in the experiment is that, the stomach says that ‘I do not want to eat’, but taste says ‘I want to eat’.

Questioner: But what profit one can gain from that? Do we have to pay more attention at the time of eating?

Dadashri: Food is not for eating up to full satisfaction level. Hungry (with understanding) one has to eat. Stomach does not have problem at all. Stomach does not bind one. Taste says, that is also right, because it says to eat too. One eats properly, stomach refuses to eat that is also right, and then taste will stop by itself when the stomach gets too full.

Dadashri: No, no. Why do you need to keep awareness for all? Awareness definitely stays. Awareness, when you put something in your mouth, is it shrikhand! Does not it stay?

Questioner: Yes, but do we have to go that far? It is not good to keep eating up to that level, is it? Stomach says ‘no’ and tongue (taste buds) says ‘yes’, can it work like that everyday?

Questioner: No, but overeating creates problem for him.

Dadashri: No, there is no problem of experiment in this.

Dadashri: Overeating is the experiment.

Under eating or overeating, it is the experiment.

Questioner: experiment?

Questioner: Yes, but there should be a limit, shouldn’t there? Do we have to keep a limit for that or not?

Dadashri: No problem at all. You stay as the experimenter.

See the result of the experiment by being the experimenter

Dadashri: No, but next day you will get the fruit of the experiment, will you not!

You will get indigestion.

Questioner: Yes, that surely will happen.

Dadashri: Therefore we should know the next day that this thing happened by doing this. Indigestion happened therefore now I have to do this way. The experimenter will continue to see all this, what is happening during the experiment, what is the end result, he will continue to see that. He will note down the results.

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No

problem

of

Questioner: If we remain as the experimenter and overeat then also there is no problem?

Dadashri: The result of over eating will be that you will eat less on the next day. That is verily a law.

Questioner: We will try to get into this completely.

Dadashri: Is that so? Well then.

The fault is of the taster There is no fault of jalebi (sweet and flavored golden rings fried to crispness), no September 2010

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fault of the eater too. It is a fault of the one who tastes the sweetness. There isn’t any kind of fault in eating at all. Our Akram Vignan says so.

Questioner: The tongue will not refrain from showing the sweet taste, will it? Tongue (taste buds) will know that this is sweet.

Dadashri: Jalebi tastes sweet that is also the property of jada (inanimate). The property is of the jada, the liking is of the atma (the self).

Why this item turned sweet and why this item turned sour? The property is there, it is its own property. But the liking (bhaav) is of the atma. If you change from like to dislike (abhaav) and then you eat then there is no problem. Thereafter pudgal (that which is constantly forming and disintegrating) eats pudgal. Should you not change (opinion) from like to dislike? Or else according to our new system you should say this that ‘the eater eats and I am the non-eater.’ So that bhaav (likedislike) dissolved, did it not? Thereafter your intent—predilection too will leave.

Dissipate the temptation of eating the following way Questioner: How can we dissolve the temptation—illusory attraction (moha) towards particular food taste completely?

Dadashri: You should know what he ate during the whole day. You should not demand for food. And ‘You – the Self’ should tell Chandubhai not to beg for food. Tell him, ‘Eat whatever comes in your plate.’

Questioner: What did we do, Dada that we came up stuffing such moha (illusory attachment for various tastes and pleasures)?

Dadashri: Because you liked it. If you did not like it (in the past life) then you would September 2010

not have brought it forward in this life. If you would not have liked it then you would have gone (moksha).

Illusory attachment decreases through the words of Gnani Purush Questioner: What was that which you had asked us to speak?

Dadashri: “I have taken the blessings of Dada Bhagwan. So now the Tendencies of Eating, you leave. Oh, Tendencies of Eating, please leave”. You have to say, ‘Oh, Tendencies of Eating, please leave.’ You have to speak that way. You speak when you go. You speak at noon. Speak in the evening. Speak three times. Go. This is the best weapon, isn’t it?

Questioner: Yes Dada, this is the best.

Self, the non-eater is separate from the eater Questioner: Does the thought of eating arise because one becomes the eater?

Otherwise he will eat whenever food comes along, but he will not have thought about that.

Dadashri: Only the eater will have thoughts, after then he will think that ‘I am hungry’. That eater feels happy. The one who has understood our Gnan (Self-knowledge), when he eats up four laddus (sweet balls) even then ‘we—the Gnani Purush’ know that he is the Atma (the Self). If you drank some more doodhpaak, does it mean it is your fault?

Questioner: It is not considered a fault.

Dadashri: Should we give a reward to the one who takes less (doodhpaak)?

Questioner: No, that is right. These both are not the religion of the Self. After then if the fever came then doesn’t he say that I got a fever? The effects that one feels, such effect will happen here, will it not?

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Dadashri: The effect will happen in fever; not in this.

Questioner: No. Then after when this molar hurts then he will say ‘my molar tooth hurt’, when one speaks like this; then it will have effect, will it not? But you had said once that I would wipe it off again from inside later on that this Ambalal’s molar tooth is hurting, not mine.

Dadashri: You should wipe it off after speaking.

Questioner: Similarly in this, there is no problem if he drinks four bowls of doodhpaak or two bowls of doodhpaak, but he will have feeling inside that the eater is this (the non-Self), and the Self is the non-eater.

Dadashri: It will remain like that, we don’t have to even say so.

How would be the Gnani’s upayoga?

(Upayoga: Applied awakened awareness as the Self) You come and see when I am eating. I do not mix rice and daal. Some days I would mix. Otherwise I eat rice, lentil soup, and vegetables separately. I will not put vegetable in my mouth when I am chewing rotli. I eat everything separately to take the individual taste. Otherwise if we do not take the taste (enjoy) then the Atma (the Self) will not be present. The knower will not show up.

I am not telling you to do like this. I am doing this way. And along with this; who is eating, who is chewing, how is the taste, who is suffering the pleasure (bhogavey), and what am I doing. I would know all these together at the time of each morsel in the mouth. He is enjoying the taste; taste of this food item is delicious. I would give that information because I am the knower. So I would give information 18

that this is delicious. So he-the non-Self complex, is the sufferer (bhokta) and I am the knower (gnata). This is how He does everything. It takes little more time for me to eat. You eat four rotlis (thin flat wheat bread) and I eat one rotli but the time for you and me will be same. When it takes little more time then someone would say, ‘Because of old age you may not have teeth and that is why you are having an excuse.’ But it is not so either. I chew more times than you. I may have less teeth but I chew more times than you. It is because until I dissolve, I do not let it go down in stomach. This rotli was in the form of flour, it was little undercooked but I dissolve and make it in the form of juice (chew until it turns into liquid form) and then I let it go down in stomach. So you cannot say that I am not chewing. You would let it go down even if it is little undercooked, would you not?

Questioner: I stuff the stomach to the top in no time. If some guest was sitting next to me for a meal then a family member will say, ‘Eat little slowly, you have to give him company.’

Gnata as the knower, knows the gneya as separate So I have a habit of eating in this manner so I eat everything separately. Then I know that the sufferer enjoys and the knower knows.

The inner state (parinati) of the Self starts to become sharp.

Questioner: It becomes sharp. It becomes subtle and sharp.

Dadashri: Yes, the Lord of infinite energies! Its phases are so sharp that you cannot even ask. But this should be accomplished, should this not? It will reach up to certain limit then it will go on automatically.

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Gnani continuously separate as the Self Questioner: Dada, this is a western method of western countries that when we sit on a table, they have a menu on a table so if we ask for a bowl of soup, and soup will be served first. We have to drink that soup. Then the next food item will come and then the third will come. It will continue like that and we will eat one by one item. They will not mix like us— hotch-potch—in a plate.

Dadashri: Yes, because he is enjoying, he is the sufferer of pleasure. The food is a thing for enjoyment for him. I—the Gnani Purush, am going through the ultimate kind of suffering of pleasure. And I will explain to you about who is eating in this at that time? People do like this at the time of eating, they break a piece, they put it in the mouth, they put it on a tongue, what is happening on that tongue, it is being chewed, that juice (saliva) drips from the top, when the juice (saliva) drips everything becomes mixture inside, now at that time the juice, whatever the taste is, how is that taste, the knower is also separate. The one who enjoys the taste, the sufferer of this taste is also separate. And the one who knows that sufferer, who enjoys the taste, is Atma (the Self). The one who enjoys is not the Atma.

So I am as that; I remain separate as the Self.

What if one eats after mixing everything?

Now, the tongue does all the analysis.

We know that when the food goes down a little from the surface of the tongue, we don’t appreciate or know about it. Therefore before it goes down from the surface of the tongue, I bring back again on the surface. When ‘I’ ‘see’ again, I ‘see’ the sufferer (bhokta) again and the knower (gnata) remains. The sufferer remains so the knower also should remain.

Now if we eat by mixing food then the September 2010

sufferer does not get to enjoy as it is, and therefore the knower (gnata) will not get to know in exactness. Someone tells me, ‘You eat after mixing food like ascetics.’ Then I said, ‘No, the whole knower (gnata) will dissipate, the knower will become weak.’ They (in Kramic path) want to make the knower weak only. They do this experiment so it (temptation for food) will not stick to tongue.

And for us (in Akram path), let it stick to tongue but we can know as a knower, can’t we?

What will happen if we mix food together? The Self becomes mixed. All the gneyas (that which is to be known) which were separate, they mixed all the gneyas and made one gneya. And the Self became the knower. However many gneyas, that many is the opportunity to Be the gnata. Therefore we have to keep gneyas clean—individually separate. If one wants to become a Gnani then the gneyas should be separate. When one eats by mixing, then at that time, the Self moves away.

The solution to get rid of temptation of taste Some ascetics (sadhus) eat after mixing everything together, what do they mix?

Questioner: Lentil soup, rice, vegetable, rotli, etc.

Dadashri: Lentil soup, rice, vegetable, sweet ball (laddu), thin bread (rotli), vedhami (wheaten cake with stuffing of mashed split pulse and jaggery), shrikhand (sweetened creamy yogurt with nuts and saffron). They mix everything together and then eat. Hey you!

Are you doing this as a human being! I had asked one sadhu when I did not have Gnan.

I said, ‘Bapji, what is the purpose of this?

And what benefit can you get from this?’ Then he says, ‘All this (routine) is kept from our 19

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gurus from the time before.’ So I asked, ‘No, tell me the purpose, what is the purpose of this?’ Then he says, ‘The taste will not stick to tongue, otherwise the taste will stick.’

Questioner: They eat after mixing so that all the temptation for taste can dissolve.

Dadashri: Let’s believe that it is gone, what is next? Thereafter I told Bapji, ‘If we give shrikhand and poori (deep fried soft bread) to this dog then will it eat after mixing together or separately?’ Then he says, ‘It will eat separately.’ I said, ‘Nothing happens to a dog then why does it happen to you?’

Now this is just a talk without any negative intent. We are not irritated at them.

What they are doing is correct for them, because it is their standard. They have to do in that standard, it is not wrong.

It is not taste but it is bad taste Questioner: But Dada, it is like this that, at least some kind of taste would arise when they eat after mixing all these food items together, just as the taste would arise by eating just one particular item. So similarly when they eat after mixing all the things then from that too some kind of taste will arise, will it not?

Dadashri: No. Questioner: It will not have any taste at all? At least it will have some taste.

Dadashri: It does not happen, it does not. It is not becoming that one mixes shrikhand and daal.

Questioner: At least some kind of odd taste will be there, will it not?

Dadashri: No, no, it will taste odd and tasteless.

Questioner: It will taste odd and tasteless. Afterwards he will get used to this 20

bad taste so then he will begin to like it?

Dadashri: No, it will taste odd, it will be tasteless, only there to satisfy the hunger.

Questioner: Hunger will satisfy. No, but whoever eats after mixing in this manner, after eating will he feel mental satisfaction that ‘I ate this’?

Dadashri: Hunger will satisfy. Taste dissipates.

Questioner: So Dada, will the taste dissolve or it may increase sometime?

Dadashri: No. Questioner: All the taste will dissipate?

Dadashri: Yes, it will dissipate. If you keep this pudgal far then it is possible to remain far. If you do not go to watch movie all the time then the tendency of watching movie will not increase, it will decrease and you will not like movies later on at all. So that thing is not wrong. That is correct at that place.

Gneya moved so knowing of the knower moved The knower moves away for those people (people out there) who eat food after mixing. When a chili pepper comes in a meal then you can know that it is pungent so the Self will know and see. Atma (the Self) will move away for those who eat after mixing.

When one knows different tastes, all that is gneya (that which is to be known) then the Self is the knower. If you eat after mixing then there is no gneya at all. Interference (dakho) happened. Where one eats each prepared item separately, one can know within.

Now if there are gneyas then there is a gnata. What the scripture writers said? If you remove the gneyas then Atma will move away.

Therefore I say that eat such a way that gnata September 2010

DADAVANI

can know all the gneyas. If gneya is known then the knower (gnata) will remain present.

Now how can the world understand this minute talk? We eat every food item tastefully since a long time. Many times I do not mix rice and daal. I eat rice separately and daal separately too. This is how ‘we’ can know its taste. It is a gneya. Gnata will also have assurance that, ‘no, we gave reward to rice too.’ However people (in the Kramic path) mix and stuff both as if they are equal. Yet whoever can afford, let them do it. We do not have opposition for them. But this is not useful to us (in the Akram path). Therefore ‘we’ said, ‘settle with equanimity.’ We cannot mix shrikhand and lentil soup (daal) two together.

Unique technique to conquer the temptation of taste sense It is a gneya then there is a gnata (knower). Now how can you know if someone gives you lentil soup mixed with shrikhand? So the thing (food item) is an instrument in attaining knowledge. You ate shrikhand, so it is an instrument and that is how you attain the knowledge. Otherwise how can you know?

So what benefit these other people, who eat after mixing the food, get? The tongue does not crave taste, because they eat fast. And the one who eats separately will keep thinking in his mind that the shrikhand was delicious and so he will stick to shrikhand. But this is beneficial if one does not allow it to stick.

Why this gets stuck? You end up speaking from within that shrikhand is very delicious, so you have to speak again that ‘I do not like shrikhand at all.’ You can eat, but from within you have to keep speaking that you do not like it. It destroys the psychological effect. You should keep doing plus-minus, plus-minus. And you have to divide it. Atma will verily remain Atma only, all other things will dissipate.

September 2010

The results of the experiment are known if the experimenter is present So eat leisurely. Eat shrikhand and everything nicely. And when you eat shrikhand or jalebi, if you eat just by swallowing then there will be absence of the experimenter. The experiment is happening in the absence of the experimenter.

When I eat mathiyu (thin fried crispy and spicy wafer made from matha flour), I keep it for very long time in the mouth, I make small pieces so at least I want to know once through gnan that ‘what is this made up of and what is it, what is it not, what is it.’ The gnan can tell everything that this is the flour of matha, it tastes this much salty, and chili pepper is little less that is why it tastes like this. We can know that there is asafoetida (hing). I would know first through gnan. We keep in the mouth and then what would we do? We chew until it dissolves so it will become juicy.

It becomes juice so who chews? Who is the sufferer of this? This juice tastes good, who is that sufferer? So I chew in such a way that I can know the sufferer too. And I remain as a knower of how that becomes the worthy of enjoying (bhogya – fit to be enjoyed) to the sufferer. I ate mathiyu but all these games also would continue inside. And in fact, it is like that only. The sufferer is ego and the sufferer can enjoy nicely and the knower would know. The sufferer enjoys tastefully. He enjoys tastefully, this will know that too. There is no problem if he enjoys tastefully. It is his and he enjoys, we don’t have any concern in that. He enjoys pain tastefully also, does he not?

Questioner: Who is the one who becomes eligible for enjoying the suffering well?

The sufferer is the ego and who is the one who becomes fit to enjoy in a better way?

Dadashri: The ego verily becomes 21

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worthy of enjoying in a better way. We do not have to create objection for that, because when the bitter evidence comes even then again he will have to suffer the same way, will he not?

Questioner: Yes. Dadashri: He will take that experience also nicely, will he not? He is taking nicely in this, so will it not come in that too? We have to know both evidences, both situations.

Where is pleasure?

Is there pleasure in eating or is there pleasure in eating in balanced proportion?

Questioner: Eating in balanced proportion.

Dadashri: And what if it is eaten in excess of normal amount? That is not considered pleasure at all. Pleasure is that which will not be followed by pain at all. That is the bliss of Atma (the Self) and this is relative (paudgalic) pleasure. If you had eaten less then the thought will continue to arise that it would have been better if I had eaten little more. And if it overeaten then too one will feel restlessness.

As much pleasure is taken from the relative things that much will be the loss from the real. There is no problem in enjoying fresh air around but one should have awareness over that. At the time of eating you liked the taste of vegetable but You should remain in upayoga (applied focused awareness of the Self).

Settle the claim of the mind with equanimity Questioner: Dada, until we are ready to eat we know that by eating this food, such harm can happen. But Dada, when we go with the plate and start eating and it is gone.

But after that we find, pick and stuff in what 22

we like and then we feel remorse that oh, I ate too much.

Dadashri: If ‘we—the Gnani Purush’ get this one food item more in our plate then we will remove this other food item. When you give me this food item then I have to take out that item. It will not be more than necessary.

We have to show the mind. Mind will say, ‘Bring mamara (parched grain of rice)’, then we would ask for someone to bring mamara.

We will feed couple of grains of mamara. If he eats some mamara then it will feel peace, we have to coax it (mind). If it is asking for tea, it was asking since three days, so I gave it today. But I would give it; we will not make it complain. If it starts to claim then it may claim, because then only it will settle otherwise it will not. So our mind does not complain.

We never have desire for anything in our mind.

It is just that while we are eating at that time we would think to take a little. It comes according to its way and that is all right.

And breakfast, I would wish that it would be better if there is a little more salt.

Questioner: But she would prepare with so much love thinking that how can Dada eat more food!

Dadashri: No, but desire, would be such that it would be better if it comes with little more of something (spice). If he has a good breakfast, I do not harbor any irritation, even that is allowed.

When it comes in memory there You know that it is stuck Questioner: Dada, you had said that you are allowed to eat everything, which does not come into memory. How can we make a way for that which comes in memory?

Dadashri: You should identify; you should remain acquainted with it.

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DADAVANI

Eat everything, unless it does not come in your memory. If it comes in memory again then identify that this got stuck over me. Do we not need to identify?

Questioner: We have to identify in advance.

Dadashri: It is not worth getting into competition with that Chandubhai right now. If he says, ‘Did you enjoy?’ Then you should say, ‘I do not understand anything in this.’ You should do such a thing that he will feel uninterested. And if you say, ‘nice!’ he will start binding new tastes. Once you said it is good then he will come with a rope and keep beating you.

The reason for it to keep coming in memory is because it is from past time. In past, such thing must have happened, the mistake is from past. You did not understand, did you?

Questioner: Dada, this is very profound talk.

Dadashri: Whatever keeps coming in your memory, if You tell him (internal conversation), you talked very beautifully then it will stick more. Instead of that if you say, ‘I do not understand much’, then he will get bored. Then he will leave you. Otherwise he would have possessed you more and more.

Experiment became free from the experimenter The Lord said that the experimenter matter (dravya) had become absorbed (tanmayakar) with the experiment. And that experimenter became free from the experiment.

The experiment had become one (tanmayakar) with an experimenter matter.

So that has separated by doing this experiment of knowledge—Gnan Vidhi. This experiment has become one with an experimenter matter September 2010

(dravya). Just as when one experimenter does the experiment and becomes one by sticking his hand in the experiment and then see how he feels the hurt, this has become like that.

‘We’ remove ‘the hand’ then You just have to keep ‘seeing’ this, what the experiment is going on. The scientist—experimenter, who gets burnt, is weak in matters where he gets burnt.

Experiment under the control of vyavasthit This Chandubhai is a kind of an experiment. He will add pineapple, lentil soup, kadhee, what result comes out of this? All this is happening. The experiment is happening. We have to continue seeing that we had added such and such things so this experiment got ruined, it created gas in the body, so now we have to do this way, we have to add this way, we have to continue seeing and the experiment is vyavasthit (scientific circumstantial evidence), therefore it is not in our hand. We do not have authority so we have to continue seeing. All this is the experiment only, isn’t it?

You are the knower of the experiment Don’t you have to put food in your stomach every day? If it were not mechanical, then your work would be done if you ate just once; you would not have to eat again. But here there is an intake (puran) and an output (galan). Everything is mechanical. You are separate from this. You are the knower of this mechanical process. This mechanical thing is an ‘experiment’ and you are the ‘experimenter’. You are the knower of what is going on in this ‘experiment’; what changes are going on in ‘Chandulal’! But instead of that you claim, ‘I am Chandulal’; how can you afford such a tremendous mistake? The one – the Self was getting involved in that experiment and now he came out of the 23

DADAVANI

experiment. Therefore he understood that now it was his mistake.

Questioner: It was a big mistake.

Dadashri: Yes, you would get burnt when you make a mistake, would you not?

Questioner: Yes, I would get burnt.

Dadashri: So then however much is written in your forehead (karma) to get burnt that much you will have to definitely get burnt.

Questioner: Yes, there is no way out.

Dadashri: Yes, you cannot be free at all. But if one has to go through the burning process, then he can attain experientialknowledge. He can attain unfailing knowledge.

Once a person has sustained a burn then it will start to fit in his mind that now I don’t want to do it again, I don’t want to do it again, I don’t want to do it again, and thus it will stop.

An experimenter is the ‘Kevalgnan’ form The experiment and an experimenter both are verily separate there. When you stick your finger in the experiment then you get burnt so next time you decide that now you will not stick your finger again. Afterwards mistake happens again, again if you tumble down then you stick your finger again. By doing this one day the gnan will fit, but the original Gnan is one’s own kevalgnan (absolute knowledge) state. This is nothing else. Therefore, this world is the experiment. And ‘we—the enlightened ones’ are the experimenters. The experimenter would be in a kevalgnan state.

becomes experienced. As long as one is inexperienced he will definitely stick his hand (in the experiment – the non-Self complex and its interactions). Oh, It is overflowing, it is overflowing, it is overflowing! Hey you!

Overflowing it is, but that is the experiment that is overflowing, where are you overflowing?

Why are you sticking your hand?

Questioner: The experiment overflew; I am the absolute knower (kevalgnan) only.

Dadashri: Yes, You have to see. At that time you have to pull out the wood logs.

You have to pull the wood logs, and now do not add acid; you added that acid that is why this red flame exploded.

Knowing is the nature of an experimenter One man says, ‘Dadaji, I have this factory, chemical business, there are lots of organisms involved, and violence keeps happening, so now what should I do?’ I said, ‘Go, and cry loudly on the name of Dada (!).

Hey Dada, I keep killing lots of microorganisms.’

Hey you! That is the experiment and You are separate as the experimenter, what is your concern in that? Why are You taking it on your head? If you take it on your head then it is your responsibility. As much you take on your head that much will be your responsibility. What the law says is that whoever takes on his head, that much is his responsibility. And these people do take everything on their head too.

Questioner: Kevalgnan is not anything

Questioner: So we do the farming and the small living organisms die, at that time how are we to see the experiment?

Dadashri: One will not create other interference, will one? But it is after one

Dadashri: That is all the experiment only. That bullock, that land, all that tools should be ‘seen by You. All that film should

else?

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DADAVANI

be visualized. To know that the experiment is going on, is the nature of an experimenter.

Now if he goes much deeper in it, then that experimenter is guilty. This result came from this, the result of this is that these microorganisms died and such and such died, You have to see all those results. You are not responsible for the results. You should see otherwise if you will try to stick your hand in that then you will have to suffer the consequences of the results.

Questioner: In the worldly quarrels also he is the experimenter only?

Dadashri: That quarrel is the experiment only. This offering of garlands, to do garba (singing song by men and women while dancing in a circle), everything is experiment only. All this is going on is also the experiment. That which You can see through eyes is the experiment, that which You can listen through ears is the experiment, that which You can smell through nose is the experiment, that which is spoken through speech is the experiment, that which is being tasted is the experiment. All are experiment only. You know that experiment. If you understand the talk properly then it is not hard. But all this is because you do not understand. You will not understand even if you read millions of scriptures.

Who will not be allowed to enter moksha?

Questioner: We drink tea, eat, all that is illusory attraction (aasakti), is that right?

Dadashri: Gnani does not have aasakti. You will not have aasakti. Therefore we have said to all those people that drink tea and have breakfast, do everything. Eat mango rus and rotli at leisure. If one had never eaten rus here then who will let him enter the gates of moksha? Mooah, you look September 2010

like a hungry man from your face! They let in only those who are wandering after satisfying their hunger.

Questioner: Dada, there is a lot of difference in kram and Akram, is it not? We would have seen all this in Kramic path.

Dadashri: It will not work in kram. In that kram, you cannot eat sweet, you have to give that away to other person otherwise it will ‘stick to the tongue’. And I told these people (in Akram), ‘Go, eat at leisure.

Because He does not eat himself, the file is eating.

Pudgal eats pudgal And You are the knower-seer – gnatadrashta in that. What do you say? The eater…

Questioner: The eater eats and I, the ‘non-eater,’ am the knower of this.

Dadashri: Yes, and what do you speak when breakfast comes? The moderate eater (alpahaari) eats in moderation and I, the ‘noneater’ am the knower of this. And what do you say when he does faraad (fruits for food)?

Faraadi –falahaari (one who is eating fruits) does fala-aahaar is eating fruits and I, the ‘non-eater’ am the knower of this. So there is an apple and other fruit and I am the knower of all and the one who eats is this, the eater.

Questioner: I am not the doer of anything; similarly I am not the doer of eating.

Dadashri: Yes, this Atma (the Self) has never tasted anything. Now we have made him a culprit without any reason, one keeps beating him without any fault. Would the Atma be like this? This eating-drinking, everything is gross actions. And the Self is the subtlest of all. So how can these two go along? Because of not having understanding the entire world is taking a beating. Only the eater only eats.

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Pudgal (the non-Self complex) eats pudgal (relative thing). The Self can never eat the pudgal.

Only the eater eats. This is just that one does egoism needlessly, saying, ‘I ate.’ Oh, what you were going to eat? And if you were going to eat then try to eat when you have a fever? I ate, but I threw up! If you were eating then how did you vomit? Say, that you cannot eat, I want to eat but I can’t.

What if one keeps seeing one pudgal?

This science is of different kind.

Therefore, in this science there is not any concern, no back and forth. If one were to eat certain green vegetables in certain seasons, then also there is no problem. If one does not eat then it is beneficial to body, beneficial to file one.

If Chandubhai eats jalebi then also there is no problem. But he eats with interest at the time of eating, and then he feels inside to eat little more again, that You have to know. So You are a gnata-drashta (knower-seer) and he (Chandulal) is a doer. Pudgal is in its state of doership and You are in the state of knower.

continues to see him then it can reach to absolute enlightenment (kevalgnan). What is Chandulal doing early in the morning? How is he brushing his teeth? How is he making noise while brushing his teeth? One can reach all the way by ‘seeing’ all that. One sees and knows that’s all.

Completion, through following Agna only…

What does our Akram path say? This file is the one who is eating, what is Your concern in it? You just ‘see’ that! What he eats, what he does not eat! What a beautiful and non-contradictory path of countless secrets revealed, is this? This is a totally scientific method. When can it not be called a science?

It is when there is contradiction. Siddhant (incontrovertible principle that accomplishes the ultimate) and science both would be one only. Siddhant, that which has been accomplished. You have seen your home town, then where is the fear?

How much did you eat, and did it discharge in that proportion or not, that also You would know. The eater aahaari, the one moving around vihaari, the one who is eliminating nihaari , all is this neighbor and we used to believe to that be our true self, ‘I verily am Chandubhai.’

The best thing is to remain in this Dada’s five Agnas, nothing can come close to it.

Whoever comes, see Shuddhatma. On what basis Chandubhai has survived? On the basis of relative and You are Shuddhatma. Follow two Agnas and settle the file with equanimity.

This is just that we have wandered infinite life times through the fire of moha (mohagni) illusory attachment. Now you remain in Dada’s Agnas, the mohagni will die down, so then you will be free.

At the time of eating You should have that much awareness that Chandubhai is eating and You keep knowing, You should maintain such awareness. Slowly and slowly by doing so, You will have awareness. Awareness will increase in this way.

If one remains in this five Agnas then he can accomplish the work of liberation.

Thereafter there is no question of eating, is there? The eater eats. Here, the eater eats and so where are we eating? If we remain as the Self then the work gets accomplished.

What this Chandulal is doing, if one

~ Jai Sat Chit Anand

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Atmagnani Pujya Deepakbhai's Satsang Tours of Aus-NZ & Africa-Dubai

Australia rd

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Dt. 23 -24 Sept. (Thu-Fri), 8 pm to 10 pm - Spiritual Discourses Dt. 25th Sept. (Sat), 10 am to 12-30 pm - Spiritual Discourse by Aptputra Dt. 25th Sept. (Sat), 4 pm to 7-30 pm - Gnanvidhi (A Scientific Experiment on Self-realization) Dt. 26th Sept. (Sun), 10 am to 12-30 pm - Gnan Followup Satsang Venue : The Northcott Building, 1, Fennell St., North Parramatta, NSW 2150.

Contact : +61-2-96385702, E-mail: dada_bhagwan_aus@yahoo.com.au

New Zealand th

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Dt. 30 Sept.-1 Oct. (Thu-Fri), 7 pm to 9 pm - Spiritual Discourses Dt. 2nd Oct. (Sat), 4 pm to 7 pm - Gnanvidhi (A Scientific Experiment on Self-realization) Dt. 3rd Oct. (Sun), 4 pm to 6 pm - Gnan Followup Satsang Venue : Dominion Road School, Quest Tce.,Mt. Roskill (Off Akarana Ave.) Auckland.

(Near Dominion Road - Mt. Albert Road Intersection) Contact : +64-21-2174707, +64-22-6285088, E-mail: veeralsheth@hotmail.com

Nairobi-Mombasa (Kenya) 22nd-23rd-24th October (Fri-Sat-Sun)-10 am to 12 Noon, 4-30 pm to 7 pm-Spiritual Retreat Venue : Brookhouse School, Magadi Road, Langata, Nairobi. Tel.: +254 724841001 25th Oct. (Mon) - 8 to 10 pm - Spiritual Discourse 26th Oct. (Tue) - 7 to 10 pm - Gnanvidhi (A Scientific Experiment on Self-realization) 27th Oct. (Wed) - 8 to 10 pm - Gnan Follow up (Spiritual Discourse) Venue : Visa Oshwal Centre Auditorium, Ring Road, Opp. Nakumet UKAY, Nairobi.

Tel.: +254 735856516, 724841001, 737777666, 733908748, 722803279, 733612040 29th & 30th Oct. (Fri-Sat) - 8 to 10 pm - Spiritual Discourse 31st Oct. (Sun) - 4 to 7-30 pm - Gnanvidhi (A Scientific Experiment on Self-realization) Venue : Navnat Bhavan, Mwembe Tayari Road, Behind Sapphire Hotel, Mombasa.

Tel.: +254 770081727, 722559985, 729321611

Dubai (UAE) 2nd & 3rd Nov. (Tue-Wed), 7-30 to 10 pm - Spiritual Discourses in question-answer format 4th Nov. (Thu), 7-30 to 11 pm - Gnanvidhi (A Scientific Experiment on Self-realization) Venue : Dhow Palace Hotel, Near Standard Chartered Bank, Kuwait Street, Bur Dubai.

Tel.: (+971 50) 5536345, 7853967, E-mail : appu_vora@hotmail.com rd

Param Pujya Dada Bhagwan's 103

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16th November to 20th November 2010 at Rajkot (Gujarat, India) More information about this program will be published in next issue. Contact : +91 9924343434 September 2010

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Spiritual Discourses and Gnanvidhi in the presence of Atmagnani Pujya Deepakbhai Trimandir Adalaj 16 October (Sat), 4-30 pm to 7 pm - Spiritual Discourse 17th October (Sun), 3-30 pm to 7 pm - Gnanvidhi (A Scientific Experiment on Self-realization) 5th Nov. (Fri) 8-30 pm to 10-30 pm - Special Bhakti on the occassion of Diwali Festival 7th Nov. (Sun) 9 am to 12 pm - Special Darshan-Pujan on the occassion of Gujarati New Year th

Watch Pujya Niruma on T.V. Channels India

Zee Jagran, Everyday 9:30 PM to 10:00 PM (In Hindi) DD-Girnar (Gujarati), Everyday 7:00 AM to 7:30 AM & 3:30 PM to 4 PM Arihant TV Channel, Everyday 10 to 10-30 AM (In Gujarati) (New)

All over the World (except India) on 'Sony TV' Mon-Fri 7 AM to 7:30 AM (In Hindi) 'TV Asia' Everyday 6:30 AM to 7 AM EST (In Gujarati) USA UK 'Aastha International' Everyday 8 AM to 8:30 AM (In Gujarati)

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I STAR ( International Spiritual Teenage Akram Retreat) Youth retreat held for NRI Youngs in Simandhar City, India 50 teenagers from all across the world including USA, UK, Kenya and Singapore, came together for 14 days for a spiritual retreat in Simandhar City from August 9th to August 22nd 2010. They became more familiar with Dada Bhagwan's amazing Akram Science through various sessions, games, activities and just by being around mahatmas in Simandhar city. They got an opportunity to interact with the Indian youth and most importantly with Pujya Deepakbhai and the Aptputras. As part of the retreat, they went on a day trip to visit the Bhadran trimandir, Kelanpur (Pujya Dada Bhagwan's Samadhi) and Mama ni pol in Baroda (Dada Bhagwan's residence). A 4 day road trip to places of interest like the palace of Udaipur, gave them a taste of Indian heritage as well. At the end of the retreat, one of the participants summed up their experience - "We all feel like Simandhar city is our home. We do not feel like going back to our countries. We can't wait to come back for I-STAR 2011 !"

Contact : Mahavideh Foundation, Trimandir, Simandhar City, Ahmedabad-Kalol Highway, P.O.:Adalaj, Dist.:Gandhinagar-382421, Gujarat, India.

Tel. : (079) 39830100, email: dadavani@dadabhagwan.org Vadodara : 0265-2414142, Mumbai : 9323528901, USA: 785-271-0869, UK: 07956 476 253 Websites : (1) www.dadabhagwan.org (2) www.dadashri.org 28

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