Document last viewed and shared 26-10-2013 Stan Meyer Vic Style 1 Rebuild Guide Sections ● What does it do exactly ● Design Drawings ● Sources of Parts or pcs ready made ● Parts List ● Part Specs ● How to build methods or techniques ● Measuring of finished part prior to install ● Tools required for this part. ● Buying complete ready made parts. ● Q&A Note for Every One using this file Be cautious don’t just change doc with out knowledge of what you adding or changing. 1st rule is change date top right on this visit and share 2nd rule here is every time you view you must immediatly down load this document convert to pdf and share it all docs here are valuable and should be shared.
Primary Coil (Yellow) = 400 to 500 turns
Feedback Coil (Green) = 400 to 500 turns (same as Primary) Secondary Coil (Blue) = 3000 turns L1 Coil (Red) = 3000 turns L2 Coil (Red) = 3000 turns The Primary to Secondary ratio is approx. 1:7 Based on the resistance measurements of each coil you will need the follow amount of 29 awg (81.84 ohms/1kFT) wire: Primary = 10.5 ohms = 128.3 feet of wire Feedback = 11.5 ohms = 140.5 feet of wire Secondary = 72.4 ohms = 884.7 feet of wire L1 = 76.7 ohms = 937.2 feet of wire L2 = 70.1 ohms = 856.6 feet of wire Hi lads, a very interesting thread, thanks for the useful information. I am wondering, for those who dont have the meyer style bobbin, is thereany other coil arrangement coil construction / winding method that may achieve the intended effects like the meyers vic coil design? Try using a center-tap transformer and a sine wave generator. Ground the center-tap and then connect a diode to one end and then to the cell and connect the other end to the cell also. This should give you two sine waves that are 180* out of phase. You can also add chokes in series to help restrict current and give higher voltages. I think a sine wave input would be more efficient than pulsed DC. I also think Stan was forced to use pulsed DC by design. He had to do this in order to get his patents cuz AC electrolysis was already patented by Puharich. Just a thought though
The frequency doubling effect is hard to understand because it's not frequency doubling. It should be called pulse time doubling, that's what it really is. Just so everyone here knows I'm not just making stuff up here's a scope shot from some early coil designs of mine. The top scope shot is just the transformer with a 100k load across the secondary coil. The bottom scope shot is the transformer and chokes connected with the same 100K load resistor. (Measurements taken from across load resistor)
Note the pulse time doubling which occurs with the chokes connected. Also, note that these 2 coils were bad designs. The coils were each too far underdamped, had long rise and fall times, and backswing.
Parts require for this build
1.#30WAG wire hom much?
2. prinited bobines and end caps 3. ferrite core Specs = 4.2pc TIP120 e NPN Darlinton Power amp 5.1pc LM 340T5 6. 1pc 2N3055 Transistor 7. 1 MUR 1550 Diode 8. aluminum cases for the VIC Coil play an important role. EMI shielding perhaps? (I assume it´s for cooling purposes and to cope with the eddy currents.)
1. 30 WAG WIRE Notes styles and types. (may have been using 4 layer coating on the wire witch brings the measurements up to where there suppose to be...this makes sense with the use that there may be high voltage in the wire. extra insulation...) may have used 30 AWG magnet wire with heavy double or quadruple insulation to make it approximately 29 AWG. The type of insulation in question could be found in the technical brief at the beginning of page 7-5 of memo 426:both magnet wire sizes (622/623) uses solderable Nysol (Polyurethane Nylon Jacket) insulation enamel coating as a electrical shield-material ...In the wire size chart it gives the bare diameter, I think that's the diameter of the conductor only If someone had measured the thickness of the wire that measurement will include the insulation
sources of wire One supplier who carries magnet wire with Polyurethane-Nylon insulation could be found here: http://www.planetengineers.com/default.a...%2C+Magnet 30 AWG Heavy Poly Nylon (two coats): http://www.planetengineers.com/product.asp?pid=1458 30 AWG Quadruple Poly Nylon (four coats): http://www.planetengineers.com/product.asp?pid=2168 30 AWG with a heavy build would have a maximum diameter of 0.0121 inches according to this document: http://www.nema.org/stds/complimentary-d...0final.pdf
2 printed bobbins , past designs note here and 3d printer files.
above design of 1 half pc of 3d printed bobbin.
bobbin and end caps
2 half pcs of 3d printed bobbin together
I'm using decimal measurements in Sketchup and modified the dimensions a bit using the total length of the 6-in-1 coil bobbin rounded to tenths to be: .3 + .1 + 1.3 + .1 + .4 + .1 + 1.3 + .1 + .3 = 4" Both bobbins of the 6-in-1 are in four pieces; see the attachments including the zipped Sketchup sketch.
Also for the record, Dynodon stated the gauge and decimal representation of the magnet wire used was 29 AWG and 0.0155 inches. The actual diameter of 29 AWG wire is 0.0113 inches according to this source: http://www.bulkwire.com/wiregauge.asp In the sketch notebook, it notes all the wires are 0.0115 inches in diameter which is approximately 29 AWG. 0.0155 and not 0.0115 inches should be a typo. 3 Ferrite core We know that the permeability is between 1550-1600. We started with a Ferrite core (hard) that got roughly 2000 in perm, we then did a test and re calculated the data and found that the perm is roughly 300-400 higher then what it should be. So for now, you can drop testing an iron core. Here is a picture taken from the replicated core.
notes All of my research indicates that the isolationtransformer is a pulse transformer. What that means is that the design is very critical. If any one of many characteristics is incorrect the coil will output AC and no gas will be produced. The core has the most influence so my hopes for this core are not very high. impedance matching and everything needs to be dead on... to hit output specs permeability we need is around 1000 or less. I've been looking at Ferrite 46 and some others. In this design Meyer aimed for a center frequency of 5khZ which he explains in the control and driver circuits patent (WO 92/07861). I am getting ready to wind my bobbins, wondering if I should try winding them on my lathe or just go for the hand winding method....It's hard to get a good wind on a square bobbin....How did you guys wind yours? the scanning circuit seems to be scanning from 200hz to 5khz...
i used a drill, but want to go back in do it a bit nicer... it may effect the turn counts and that will change the inductance
could also use http://www.goodfellow.com/A/Magnetic-Shielding-Alloy.html Additional KnowledgeTerms for this part Permeability (electromagnetism)
In electromagnetism, permeability is the measure of the ability of a material to support the formation of a magnetic field within itself. In other words, it is the degree of magnetization that a material obtains in response to an applied magnetic field. Magnetic permeability is typically represented by the Greek letter μ. The term was coined in September, 1885 by Oliver Heaviside. The reciprocal of magnetic permeability is magnetic reluctivity. We can simplify it by saying, the more conductive a material is to a magnetic field, the higher its permeability. In SI units, permeability is measured in the henries per meter (H·m−1), or newtons per ampere squared (N·A−2). The permeability constant (μ0), also known as the magnetic constant or the permeability of free space, is a measure of the amount of resistance encountered when forming a magnetic field in a classical vacuum. The magnetic constant has the exact (defined) [1] value µ0 = 4π×10−7 ≈ 1.2566370614…×10−6 H·m−1 or N·A−2). A closely related property of materials is magnetic susceptibility, which is a measure of the magnetization of a material in addition to the magnetization of the space occupied by the material.
Tools Required for this Part 1. Have a meter that reads Inductance?Like H or mH? for proper testing? http://www.ebay.ca/itm/LCR-Inductance-Ca...45f2588043 LCR Inductance Capacitance Digital Multimeter Meter RCL $20 on ebay
2.If anyone has ferrite and does no know how to cut it you need a diamond blade and a lot of water 3 3d printer You can find off the shelf 3d plastic printers and 3d scanners now days and also build them if you want from web. bobbins printed on 3d printer I gave your sketch a whirl on the RepRap. It's looking very promising. I converted the Sketchup file to millimeters and exported it to .STL format attached below. I recommend printing with the support set to 'everywhere'. I tried it with no support and had sagging. There are a few tweaks Id like to try in Skeinforge to fill some gaps, but otherwise it works great. Video is compiling now, upload will start tomorrow.
3.1 sketch files for 3d printer printing bobbins http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=478 Note: on above file Thanks Nate. I just finished revision 2 of this sketch and added the end piece for the bobbins; see attachments. A minor adjustment to the core ceiling of the bobbin was lowered a bit to reflect the core dimensions of 0.5"W x 0.125"H.
Nothing special had to be done to convert the sketch to millimeters? You simply had to go in Sketchup: Window -> Model Info -> Units -> Format: Decimal | Millimeters
here are new versions v2 6in1vic-r2.skp.zip (Size: 31.77 KB
http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=479 _ICT0033.JPG-dimensions.svg.zip (Size: 5.68 MB /
http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=481 Here are version 3 17-11-2011 6in1vic-r3_mm_bobbin support and endcap mod.zip (Size: 81.95 KB http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=509
(Here is my latest and greatest print attempts. I added supports to the bobbin cores, which turned out nice. I also modified Haxar's latest end cap to beef up the zip-tie areas. Now it fills in all the middles, except the narrowest spot. I made the width 3mm, which seems to be the narrowest you can go with out loosing infill. 1 mm for each shell and 1 mm for the infill. I also printed with a 2 layer raft to help reduce warping. I want to try to make the parts print out on the bed 90 degrees from what they do now. The rafting just doesn't work as well when it is parrallel to the length of the object. I think I can fix that by making an stl with a complete set parts. Skeinforge seems to put the length along the Y axis. You can see in the endcap picture where i have half of the rafting removed, some of the corners didn't stick because the raft didn't line up. he holes turned out nice. Don't really need to ream much out if you didn't want too. RepRaps are sweet!
version 4 6in1vic-r3_mm_bobbin support and endcap mod2.zip (Size: 88.71 KB
http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=511
I found out that I needed to rotate the objects in Google Sketchup. I tried a print with it rotated and it worked much better with the raft. There was a trade off though, the "wings" on the bobbin didn't start off great. Printing with out the raft would be the ideal way to do it. I added some little indentations to the bobbin walls. They are only 0.5 mm deep, and they strengthen the walls, by "glueing" each side together. My test print only had 2 indentations, and I found adding a 3rd would be better. They shouldn't affect how the coils are wound. I also extended the supports outside of the bobbin. I was having spots where the nozzle wasn't feeding material at the starts of the lines. That will give it time to get flowing again. Sketchup and STL files are attatched.
version 4 6in1VIC.4round.zip (Size: 85.29 KB
http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=575
I did a quick Sketchup of some snap-together round VIC bobbins. The bobbin dimensions are similar to the Stan Meyer rectangular versions, except they are for a 0.4 inch round ferrite rod. The end cap will hold the bobbins just as the original. I added an area for a square ferrite rod in each cap. No idea if a rod that size is available, but it leaves room to experiment. There are two slots for zip ties in each cap instead of notches. The diameter of the bobbin walls was calculated by matching the surface area with the original rectangular bobbin walls. This should print with out the need of any supports. I'm not around my printer till the weekend so I haven't tried it. Can anyone think of any thing that could be added or changed?
vesrion 4 haxar 2-3-21012 Here's an update on the sketch to print and build the VIC transformer which now includes the core mold and an experimental coil hand winder. Changed the VIC bobbin to print in two separate pieces so that when printing them, bridging will not be an issue. See attachments.
Current replication progress: ● 30 AWG Heavy (double coat) Polyurethane-Nylon with a diameter of 0.011" ● Primary == ~611 turns @ 12.8 ohms ● Feedback == ~627 turns @ 15.8 ohms ● Secondary == ~2660 turns @ 72.1 ohms ● Choke 1 == ~2830 turns @ 77.5 ohms ● Choke 2 == ~2890 turns @ 78.5 ohms ~50 turns/ohm 1.3" == ~106 turns/layer .4" == ~32 turns/layer
The zipped attachment which includes the Sketchup and STL files can also be found here: https://github.com/haxar/meyer-stanley/t...a4fda5555a
Attached File(s) 6in1vic-329c62e.zip (Size: 319.43 KB http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=818
NOTE that's all I had to do in Sketchup to change to mm. Easier than I expected. lol I think the end piece dimensions should work well. They really just hold things together, and might need tweaking to get printed parts to fit together anyway. You could probably add the 4 screw holes into the end pieces too. They usually turn out alright on the printers, just need a little reaming with a drill bit. The best part about these bobbins is the short print time. Might be able to print a complete set in 2 hours instead of the 9 hours(90% infill) for the Multi-coil spool version. They look like they could work, but since I printed all the pieces at the same time they have a lot of globs to clean off. Some fine tuning with a file is needed to get the pieces to go together. Being so much smaller than the snap together spool I sent Russ, they don't have much flex. I actually pressed a couple pieces together with a vice. I think if we find a ferrite core to use with a design like this, a larger diameter would make assembling the bobbins easier. There isn't much room for me to tweak tolerances, since the center core walls are 2 mm thick .. and the walls for the joints are 1 mm thick. With a .5 mm nozzle that only leaves room for 2 beads of plastic at the joints. Thicker walls could be done, but I assume that the windings are better if they are closer to the core? it dose appear you could use some cleaning up on those... why is some so sloppy and some really nice? i know on the pieces you sent me some are really nice and some not? he sloppiness on this set is because I made and STL file with all the pieces needed to make one complete set. When the print head moves from one piece to the other a little "ooze" leaks out of the nozzle and stretches between the parts. Printing the pieces one by one would make them a lot cleaner, but takes much longer. Now that I have the heated bed working, I have to wait for the bed to cool off before removing parts. Otherwise they bend easily at 60 C. Most other sloppiness I think is caused by the nozzle. I'm hoping going to a smaller one will make prints much cleaner. There are probably other settings I'm not aware of that could fix that too.
YOU TUBE OF PRINTED CORES http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpo-NOUnxDQ&feature=player_embedded A test print of Stanley Meyer's VIC Coil bobbins used in the card style system. The Sketchup file used in this print was created by HAXAR on the RWGResearch forum. I converted to Millimeters, and exported to STL. You can find the files and more information on the forums at the link below: http://open-source-energy.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=170&pid=1765#pid1765
6. 1pc 2N3055 Transistor
Do you have any idea where the 2N3055 TO3 transistor fits into the mix? I see all the pancake VICs have one. 99% sure its for the voltage control here: see attachment
RE: Step by step VIC build
(03-02-2012 03:58 AM)pakakezu Wrote: Hi Guys. I have some unclear thing about the resonance finder circuit. A phase lock loop circuit will set the feedback for the VCO(voltage controlled oscillator) to find the frequency where the two signals are in phase. When the phase shifts the frequency is adjusted again to get back the in phase condition. This needs some time. But, Meyer did gated the output signal, this means, when the output signal is turned off by gating, the feedback signal disappears, automatically is caused an unlock condition, and the frequency is shifting away. But when the gating is on again, the system tries to lock in again. So if the gating frequency is too high, we never get lock`d in. But, from the drawings we have only few impulses to lock in again. Or is something I missed, and while gating is off, the PLL don`t changes the VCO? Other thing I want to warn you, is the Core saturation. When the core is saturated(magnetized whit to high current), the inductance is dropping down whit division to 1000`s of times. So if we have an LC resonance circuit this is ruining everything. I`m sure because of this was a built in power supply in each vic card. Hi, What I understand so far: For the resonance wfc, resonance is always maintained by the PLL, because the pulse frequency is always there on the coils and core. Pulse voltages do not drop to 0V. Gating is on top of the pulse signal, seen as higher amplitude. If the pulse voltage drops some time to 0V(due gating) the chokes amp restriction function is gone. If we lookup the circuit in the patent, the pulse is gated to 0V, but we need a better understanding what happens if this pulse should not go to 0V. Reading SM text isn't easy, perhaps he wanted to give us a little hint in the Fig.16 found in the Dealership Sales Manual? http://open-source-energy.org/forum/show...48#pid3448 Br, Webmug
03-06-2012, 09:57 AM (This post was last modified: 03-06-2012 10:03 AM by Webmug.) Post: #138
Webmug Junior Member
Posts: 5 Joined: Dec 2011 Reputati on: 0
RE: Step by step VIC build
Hi, Looking at Fig "section AA" where pulse signals are shown. Resonance maintained 54a no stepcharge, step charging effect 53n higher amplitude. Tuning gating duty cycle is the "Resonance action" in the resonance wfc. http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/top...l#msg22184 Br, Webmug
Attached File(s)Thumbnail(s)
03-07-2012, 03:54 PM Post: #139
pakakezu Junior Member
Posts: 4 Joined: Jan 2012 Reputati on: 0
RE: Step by step VIC build
Oh, this really make`s sense. The energized stage is kept, and the PLL loop remains closed. Now i need to clean the dust from my resonant scanning circuit and give it a new try. I have one more idea. At the New Zealand House meeting video, Stan is asked about the use of contaminated water and what happens when is over concentrated and need to be changed. He sad it can be automatized, but after changing the water you need to re Ener... Pressurize the water. I felt like, he wanted to say energize, but then he reconsidered that and said pressurize. So we need to be patient to see the effect? But this question didn`t really matches in this topic. Sorry for that.
Circuit he scanning circuit seems to be scanning from 200hz to 5khz...
Special note First post. I would like to say thanks for all the pictures. I see in the close up pictures of the VICs that they are not all wired alike. There is a picture that clearily shows that the primary winding is very fine wire and the secondary is much thicker. Another has the feedback coil wound with the same fine wire as the primary and yet another one with the feedback winding much larger. I think these VIC coils where still in the development stage and may not have been operational yet. (All of them seem to be apart). This could explain why the EC is wired in series using only 10 cells (one cell is not connected, could have been another also). I think it was configured to run with the black power supply used for the plate demo unit. 9-10 cells are the same square inches as the 3x12" plates in the demo unit.
on the driver circuit. i build that and not much luck. yours work well? The driver circuit in the posted schematic works well with Bipolar Transistors.... use exact values as specified. If you use a MOSFET as a Driver then see the attached schematic that i use to drive it perfectly MOSFET Driver is RECOMMENDED !!! Quote:on the feedback coil, Stan's was not wires like that it was a one 2 wire thing I used a center tapped pickup coil as showed in schematic.... but two wire could also be done just a little change to the opamp feedback circuit.... basically the output of the opamp feedback generates the square wave signal whose frequency is equal to the natural oscillation of the transformer when the transformer is driven for the first time... then the RESONANT SCANNER CIRCUIT in the schematic tries to catch up with it using PLL and Locks on when both frequencies matches up. Quote:are you running a cell or just pulsing something else? if a cell, are you making gas? YES!!! i am running a single tube cell and YES!!! i am making gas ... but my setup doesn't have a VIC transformer... i am using bifiler Choke driven by P-Channel MOSFET on High side and wounded pickup coil on the cor e.... my gas production is a little greater than the dynodon's video.... with 12V 0.6Amps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtf7y6cH7SE n other question about the Haxar schematic, ... the 74122 is not present on the VIC card, is it a replacement part or did you change the schematic after doing the trace of the vic card? The Variable Pulse Frequency and the Gated Pulse Frequency sub-circuits are a part of the Gas Management System unit which connect to the VIC unit, not a part of the VIC card.
notes
Based on the resonance cell specs we can calculate the capacitance: permittivity (?) = 708 picofarad/meter (for water) length (l) = 2.75 inch outer conductor diameter (b) = 0.6250 inch (based on air-gap 0.0625 inch) inner conductor diameter (a) = 0.5 inch capacitance (C) = 1392.4999746314 picofarad Note: Now the specs used for the cell has a rod in the middle and is longer than the outer tube so it has more capacitance. What you have (1.6nF) should be almost correct for the 5RC time. Measured values: C1(pos)=1262mH (positive choke who has effect on resonance according to Dynodon) C2(neg)=1138mH (tuned for balancing opposite and equal voltages [pos and neg exciters] and restrict current)
Fr=3.79kHz (calculated resonance frequency C1 and Cell) Is close to 3.98kHz which called the center frequency! Question: Isn't the frequency shifting above and below 3.98kHz? If the PLL has a lock it doesn't mean it has exactly 3.98kHz lock.
Quote from: Hidden onyWoodside on December 29, 2010, 10:13:50 am Here some math based on Meyer and Puharich..they both say the RC time is 5kHz...this doesnt mean to pulse the circuit at 5kHz, this is just the RC time. Using the RC formula RC= 1/(2pi*f*C) we can find the pulsing frequency to fully charge the WFC. We know that the RC time is 5kHz and the cell used had a capacitance of 1.6nF, 3" single tube cell. So it breaks down like this: RC = 1/(2pi*f*C) 5kHz = 1/(2pi*f*1.6nF) f = (1/(2pi*1.6nF)) / 5kHz f = 19904.46Hz Now we have to take 19904.46Hz and divide it by 5, the reason we divide by 5 is because the 19904.46Hz is the RC total which equals to 5 Time Constants, 5TC. 19904.46Hz / 5 = 3980.89Hz This 3980.89 Hz is the frequency that the circuit should be pulsed at. This number should look familiar because Puharich states this frequency in his water splitter patent!!! Don't know if it is important but what I also found is this: Sec=1047mH. Notice (Sec+C1) =>1047+1262 =(2309/2)=1154mH comes close to C2 (1138mH) What about the gate frequency to get the "resonant action" starting between the exciters?
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/wmLYPeD96LoiGg6G2FrWoCQtWLQkGWBWxpqIsxBAljQye UqWfyN8-VI88OQ4C9kTRpXgT9aZxGe6f6mtDzAqO7ZeKhzM6KITI6Y9GuU4cq_lTmb3YgQ
Annex The Follow ing Section have Been left out of the above guide as they are not focused I have added them for us to filter before putting in above .
Read on but remember the above guide id designed to be very clear adn simple thef ollow ing not and clipped from forum for refernce for making guide above. Dan
Stan Meyer Bifilar Chokes
The chokes, power coils, etc.. in Meyer's circuits seemed to have always been very confusing to many people. More people today are understanding how the chokes were designed by simply reading the tech brief that has been under all our noses the whole time. Several people in the The H2earth Institute - A Virtual Center of Excellence in Waterfuel Technology such as Josh and others are looking at this very closely. I was surprised to find so many ideas about how the chokes are designed considering the fact that the text descriptions and diagrams in the WFC tech brief are very, very clear. Upon further examination, these are my comments, which may be right or wrong, I don't know but they make sense to me Here is the tech brief on the wfc by Meyer: http://www.esmhome.org/library/stan-...ical-brief.pdf Below are a few tidbits from the tech brief on the bifilar, arrangement, purpose, construction, specs, etc... Page 6-3 "Resonant Choke Coils (56/62) of Figure (3-23) (Memo WFC 422 DA) are composed of 430F or 430FR inductance stainless steel film coated (hi dielectric value) wire (typically .004 Ga. or smaller) which are axially (spiralled) Bifilar wound about core bobbin (502), forming individual spiral-wrap (inner to outer circumference and being equally-length) coils (501a xxx 501n) electrically connected in sequencial order to form resistive pickup coil (503)."
choke #56 is drawn incorrectly - they are wrapped in the same direction. I'll get to that later.
from page 7-5 Both Inductors (LI/L2) are Bifilar wound in equal length to optimize the electromagnetic field strength (FL) in equal electromagnetic intensity (FLI = FL2) to encourage and promote "Electron Bounce" phenomenon (700) of Figure (7-9) while adjusting (programmable pulse wave-form) input signal Pulse-Frequency (49a xx 49n) to "tune-in" to the "dielectric property" (Re) of water (85) ... causing amp flow to be reduce to a minimum value while allowing voltage potential (627) of Figure (7-7) to go toward infinity if the electronic components would allow it to happen, as graphically illustrated in (750) of Figure (7-14).
page 7-11 "each choke-coil (LIIL2) being of the same impedance value since both coil-wraps (56/62) are Bifilar wound together onto a single spool-bobbin,"
page 10-1 "The Amp Inhibiting Circuit (970) of Figure (10-1) as to (690) of Figure (7-8) is composed of two copper wires "Bifilar" wound (wrapped) about a magnetic induction core to allow amp restriction (minimizing current leakage) while encouraging "Voltage Potential"(Va xxx V n) across the water molecule to perform WFC "Electrical Polarization Process", as so illustrated in Figure (7-1) WFC memo (426) titled VIC Matrix Circuit."
page 10-2 "VIC Bifilar Wrap Coil-Assembly (10-3B) and VIC Dual Coil Wrap-Assembly (10-3A) both utilize either "E"& “I” and "U" Inductance Core configurations to concentrate Mutual Inductance Fields (Rp l/Rp2) in order to optimize Amp Inhibiting Process (750) of Figure (7-14). "E" “I” core shape (10-3B) is most preferable since amp spike surge is minimize during repetitive pulsing operations."
page 10-4 "Increasing energy-yield (16/gtnt) still further (xxx 16/gtntnl+ 16/gtntn2 + 16/gtntn ... etc.) is accomplished by increasing the number of Resonant Charging Choke Stages (xxx 56/62n + 56/62n 1+ 56/62n2 + 56/62n ... etc. -S- xxx SS56/62n + SS56/62nl + SS56/62n2 + SS56/62n ... etc.) of Figure (10-4) in "Sequential Order" ( -S-) since the total number of Multi-Coil Magnet bifilar coils (56/62a xxx 56/62n) serially electrically connected together are sequentially electrically linked to an equal number of serially electrically aligned Stainless Steel Resonant Coils (SS/56/62a xxx SS/56/62n) ... allowing eachlboth bifilar coil assembly (56/62a xxx 56/62n -SSS56/ 62a xxx SS56/62n) to be electrically and magnetically energized in the same progressive direction toward Water Gap (Cp) and away from blocking diode (55) of Figure (3-34) as to Figure (10-1) and Figure (10-3) '" keeping amp-surge (inhibiting amp flow) to a minimal level [See Voltage Performance Graph (750) of Figure (7-14)] while enhancing Voltage Potential of Electrical Stress (64/RU-RU'a xxx 64/ST-ST'n) as additional Dual Choke Coils (56/62 _ SS56/62) are included in the stacked coil-array forming Voltage Intensifier Circuit (970) of Figure (10-1) as to (620) of figure (7-1) ... see Dynamic Voltage Waveform (770) of Figure (8-1), once again."
above pic if only you want to put more bifilar chokes in series pages 10-4 and 10-5 "The magnet Coil-Wire (56/62) is best suited for Voltage inducement while the inductance/capacitance/resistance properties of Stainless Steel coil-wire (SS56-SS62) is appropriately used to restrict electron movement beyond the self-inductance of each energized coil when elevated voltage levels (up to beyond 40 kilovolts) are to be reached/obtained without experiencing any appreciable amount of "Amp Influxing." Generally, magnet coil-wire length is longer than the Stainless steel coil-wire length and magnet bifilar-coil (56/62) is placed on top of Stainless Steel bifilar-coil (SS56/62) to maximize mutual inductance coil-field (Rp2) (adding Rp1 +Rp2) of (690) of Figure (7-8) to cause coil capacitance (Cda xxx Cdn) to help maintain and even increase pulse voltage amplitude (xxx Vn + Vn 1 + Vn2 + Vn .... etc.) while the resistive value (Rs2) of SS Coil-Wire (SS56/62) performs the work of further resisting the flow of amps not inhibited by both self-Inductance fields (Rpl + Rp2), as so illustrated in (690) of Figure (7-8). In all cases, bifilar coils (56/62 - SS56/62) are electromagnetically orientated in the same direction."
The above pic I drew shows the bare bones bifilar choke system. Top is the secondary transformer coil. Output through blocking diode goes into one of the bifilar choke winds. In figure 10-3B, it is easy to see that the direction the winds are coming off the core that when the positive hits that coil, north is at that side. The potential follows through to the outside positive tube through water to negative inside tube. Positive potential moves to the other bifilar choke coil (wound the same direction) meaning that north will be at THAT end (opposite of the north on the other coil) and through this coil and to the negative on power supply. Both choke coils on the pos and neg tube create opposing magnetic fields against each other. On the on pulse, the pos side choke coil is north by the diode side and south by the pos tube side... the neg side choke coil is north by the tube side and south by the power supply neg. On the OFF pulse, they both reverse and also oppose each other. In many diagrams in the tech brief, this exact configuration shows that the choke coils are in opposition at all times on the off and on pulse.
My picture shows the bare bone system without the electron extraction circuit (EEC) or any coils being tapped. Meyer says that the I core (rectangle with line down middle) as shown in fig 10-3B is the best core for the choke since this configuration restricts amps the most. More to come and comments and observations on the above very welcome...
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#2 (permalink) 08-27-2007, 09:47 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/v/ozpRNpM6FqM
#3 (permalink) 08-27-2007, 03:25 PM
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where can I buy an I core made of river haemetite? Apparently that is what Meyer used, I read that online somewhere. Havnt finished reading the tech brief. I have to read it very slowly. It looks like the transformer coils should be wound on the same core also. Is this to do with maintaining the same pulse in the magnetic fields?
#4 (permalink) 08-29-2007, 09:53 AM
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not sure of core source if power coils wound on same core that means when that is off/on the magnetic field in core can also contribute to the bifilar resonant coils in addition to the the actual voltage potential over wires affecting chokes. Is that desireable? I don't know at this time.
#5 (permalink) 08-29-2007, 02:33 PM
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Aaron, have you experimented with different cores as far as electromagnets go? i was thinking about an aluminum or copper tube core would force more of the electromagnetism outwards, instead of absorb it like steel would naturally do.
#6 (permalink) 08-29-2007, 09:13 PM
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Yes and any non-ferrous metal like aluminum and copper for a core will create "eddy current" counter current drag and will slow down the frequency and will probably create a lot of heat. air, iron, magnetite, those are all good ones.
#7 (permalink) 08-30-2007, 12:17 AM
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ok, thats twice you taught me something in the same day... one more left
thank you, probably saved me countless hours of testing hahahaha
#8 (permalink) 08-31-2007, 10:11 AM
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LOL! There are some pretty exotic core materials like metglas and so forth but not practical because ridiculous pricing and so forth. For the Bedini coils, I've always used bundled steel welding rod. Much more efficient than solid core.
#9 (permalink) 09-01-2007, 07:12 PM
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Aaron, Tesla would increase his inductance by connecting ends of bifilar or multi-coils in series. Have you tried this? This would further decrease current flow allowing only potential. This allows more effecient use of the same amount magnet wire to build a stronger magnetic field. Here is a link for those of you that need simple explanation. Bifilar Electromagnet If you notice also in the beginning of the FEG book of Bedini ('84), you see the energizer coils in series. My thought is this increases capacity as well as significant potential to be released. With this in mind, make 10-3B as a quadfilar. Two or more strands opposing two or more strands with each opposing pairs in series. Just a thought‌ Jeremy
#10 (permalink) 09-02-2007, 06:41 AM
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Hi Jeremy,
I did this test last night so here is a comparison based on hands on real experiment. The one on left side gave almost twice the voltage pulse at the cap than the right one.
#11 (permalink) 09-02-2007, 12:35 PM
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Hi Aaron Thanks for the feedback! I am having difficulty to convert your drawing to the correct physical implementation. Is the configuration on the left wired as shown in "Fig 10-3B VIC Bifilar wrap ass" posted a little higher on this page, or is Fig 10-3B the configuration on the right hand side? In other words, is Fig 10-3B the way it should we wired for the highest voltage spike? If not, how should Fig 10-3B be modified to represent the left setup above? Last edited by passion1 : 09-02-2007 at 12:43 PM.
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#12 (permalink) 09-02-2007, 03:06 PM
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Hi Jeremy, I've just tried that little bifilar experiment as shown in the link but I get the exact same field strenght on both coils, driving at the same voltage and current. Have you tried it? I also did a quick test on the Bedini SS, I had two power strands on one transistor, so I tried connecting the top (end) of one strand to the bottom of the other one, basically if they were parallel in the beginning now they were in series. I got a much higher voltage but the freq was way lower. But the charging rate was the same for both the setups. I think what Aaron did can't be compared to the bifilar in your example as he has his load in between the two coils, that's probably why he had success. Before they were cancelling, now with one side inverted they add up. Correct me if I'm wrong Aaron. best regards Mario
#13 (permalink) 09-02-2007, 08:04 PM
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Hi Passion1, here is a literal pic of what is represented in the left side of the comparison pic.
also to note the bifilar capacitance should be more than the wfc...so big bifilar chokes. but to experiement with concept can use any bifilar to see the left does give voltage boost.
#14 (permalink) 09-03-2007, 02:22 AM Join Date: May 2007 Location: Professor at Full Sail University Posts: 25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario
I've just tried that little bifilar experiment as shown in the link but I get the exact same field strenght on both coils, driving at the same voltage and current.
Have you tried it? I also did a quick test on the Bedini SS, I had two power strands on one transistor, so I tried connecting the top (end) of one strand to the bottom of the other one, basically if they were parallel in the beginning now they were in series. I got a much higher voltage but the freq was way lower. But the charging rate was the same for both the setups. Mario I just did the same experiment this afternoon. I used one strand and two in series for blocking oscillation…along with two in series for power strands. In both cases, the oscillation was slower. This is not the best way to configure multicoils for the SS. What’s interesting …is the aligned fields of the Bifilar w/ wfc load in between creates a larger compressed potential of the LEM wave. When cathode is properly insulated or conditioned this should further the compressed potential LEM wave. This will cause a larger imbalance allowing the vacuum to interact freely. I have a strong feeling that the Lawton circuit should use a Bifilar or more coils instead of two independent inductors. I may be wrong. But from what I gather from Aaron’s experiment, the field must be aligned. The D12.pdf does not show this! Also, the Lawton circuit does not pick off the electrons furthering the imbalanced high-energy state of the atomic atom. We are only
seeing on half of the picture here.
#15 (permalink) 09-03-2007, 03:20 AM
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Jerdee, I see a lot of "open source" projects that are anything but open source. Everyone seems to continually keep bits and pieces to themselves. Meyer went from individual inductors to bifilar on same core. Definitely a stronger gradient created here.
#16 (permalink) 09-03-2007, 03:24 AM
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COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS - Google Patents
UNITED STATES PATENT OFFICE. NIKOLA TESLA, OF NEW YORK, N.Y. COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS SPECIFICATION forming part of Letters Patent No. 512,340, dated January 9, 1894.
Application filed July 7, 1893. Serial No. 479,804. (No model.) To all whom it may concern:
Be it known that I, NIKOLA TESLA, a citizen of the United States, residing at New York, in the county and State of New York, have invented certain new and useful Improvements in Coils for Electro-Magnets and other Apparatus, of which the following is a specification, reference being had to the drawings accompanying and forming a part of the same.
In electric apparatus or systems in which alternating currents are employed the selfinduction of the coils or conductors may, and in fact, in many cases does operate disadvantagely by giving rise to false currents which often reduce what is known as the commercial efficiency of the apparatus composing the system or operate detrimentally in other respects. The effects of self-induction, above referred to, are known to be neutralized by proportioning to a proper degree the capacity of the circuit with relation to the self-induction and frequency of the currents. This has been accomplished heretofore by the use of condensers constructed and applied as separate instruments.
My present invention has for its object to avoid the employment of condensers which are expensive, cumbersome and difficult to maintain in perfect condition, and to so construct the coils themselves as to accomplish the same ultimate object.
I would here state that by the term coils I desire to include generally helices, solenoids, or, in fact, any conductor the different parts of which by the requirements of its application or use are brought into such relations with each other as to materially increase the self-induction.
I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance, or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction. This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil, the latter
quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency. It is well-known that the higher the frequency or potential difference of the current the smaller the capacity required to counteract the self-induction; hence, in any coil, however small the capacity, it may be sufficient for the purpose stated if the proper conditions in other respects be secured. In the ordinary coils the difference of potential between adjacent turns or spires is very small, so that while they are in a sense condensers, they possess but very small capacity and the relations between the two quantities, self-induction and capacity, are not such as under any ordinary conditions satisfy the requirements herein contemplated, because the capacity relatively to the self-induction is very small.
In order to attain my object and to properly increase the capacity of any given coil, I wind it in such way as to secure a greater difference of potential between its adjacent turns or convolutions, and since the energy stored in the coil considering - the latter as a condenser, is proportionate to the square of the potential difference between its adjacent convolutions, it is evident that I may in this way secure by a proper disposition of these convolutions a greatly increased capacity for a given increase in potential difference between the turns.
I have illustrated diagrammatically in the accompanying drawings the general nature of the plan which I adopt for carrying out this invention. Figure 1 is a diagram of a coil wound in the ordinary manner.
Figure 2 is a diagram of a winding designed to secure the objects of my invention.
Let A, Figure 1, designate any given coil the spires or convolutions of which are wound upon and insulated from each other. Let it be assumed that the terminals of this coil show a potential difference of one hundred volts, and that there are one thousand convolutions; then considering any two contiguous points on adjacent convolutions let it be assumed that there will exist between them a potential difference of one-tenth of a volt. If now, as shown in Figure 2, a conductor B be wound parallel with the conductor A and insulated from it, and the end of A be connected with the starting point of B, the aggregate length of the two conductors being such that the assumed number of convolutions or turns is the same, viz., one thousand, then the potential difference between any two points in A and B will be fifty volts, and as the capacity effect is proportionate to the square of this difference, the energy stored in the coil as a
whole will now be two hundred and fifty thousand as great. Following out this principle, I may wind any given coil either in whole or in part, not only in the specific manner herein illustrated, but in a great variety of ways, well-known in the art, so as to secure between adjacent convolutions such potential difference as will give the proper capacity to neutralize the self-induction for any given current that may be employed.
Capacity secured in this particular way possesses an additional advantage in that it is evenly distributed, a consideration of the greatest importance in many cases, and the results, both as to efficiency and economy, are the more readily and easily obtained as the size of the coils, the potential difference, or frequency of the currents are increased.
Coils composed of independent strands or conductors wound side by side and connected in series are not in themselves new, and I do not regard a more detailed description of the same as necessary. But heretofore, so far as I am aware, the objects in view have been essentially different from mine, and the results which I obtain even if an incident to such forms of winding have not been appreciated or taken advantage of.
In carrying out my invention it is to be observed that certain facts are well understood by those skilled in the art, viz: the relations of capacity, self-induction, and the frequency and potential difference of the current. What capacity, therefore, in any given case it is desirable to obtain and what special winding will secure it, are readily determinable from the other factors which are known.
1.
2.
â—? â—?
What I claim as my invention is: A coil for electric apparatus the adjacent convolutions of which form parts of the circuit between which there exists a potential difference sufficient to secure in the coil a capacity capable of neutralizing its self-induction, as herein before described. A coil composed of contiguous or adjacent insulated conductors electrically connected in series and having a potential difference of such value as to give to the coil as a whole, a capacity sufficient to neutralize its self-induction, as set forth. NIKOLA TESLA.
Robt. F. Gaylord Parker W. Page
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#17 (permalink) 09-03-2007, 07:19 AM
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Coil for electro-magnets
Hi Aaron, thanks for sharing, I knew about the flat pancake but it's the first time I've read Tesla's explanation, very interesting. From what I gathered doing the little experiment Jeremy brought up, this neutralizing function of self induction works on flat spirals due to its geometry, while applying it to a normally wound coil it is exactly like putting to coils in series, basically like one bigger coil and doesn't give that sort of gain. I see your way(or Meyers) of connecting the coils like to series coils with the load in between(wich is like your drawing only differently shown): series.jpg It would be interesting to know what voltage gain you have like this versus two completely separate coils. I would also like to know if there is a way of taking advantage of Tesla's find but on "normal" shaped coils regards Mario
#18 (permalink) 09-03-2007, 09:12 AM
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Hi Mario, One thing appears to be so and that is: during on pulse, cell + is hit with positive pulse. During off pulse, because of blocking diode, coil discharge goes in the SAME direction and doesn't reverse polarity so the cell + it hit with a SECOND pulse of same polarity. I found the same thing about 3-4 years ago with a single inductor on pos side and diode, discharge is in same direction...I got no reversal in polarity..it was same as initial pulse. I deduced it was as if the switch is open before inductor so it can only go find ground towards cell. Same gain as the flat pancakes? I don't know. But if both coils are on 1 core, there will definitely be more strength in the field than 2 single coils. This is also a known with Bedini coils. 1 coil with 4 power wires is stronger than 4 individual coils. They all pulse together, there is a synergy and the sum is more than the parts. So, I would say in this geometry with these kind of coils, yes, there is a benefit. page 7-1 in tech brief VIC voltage circuit (60) utilizes copper wire-wrap to form Resonant Charging Chokes (56/62) of Figure (3-22) in conjunction with Switching Diode (55) to encourage and make use of "Electron Bounce" phenomena (700) of Figure (7-9) to help promote Step Charging Effect (628) of Figure (7-7) by preventing electrical discharge of Resonant Cavity (140 - 170) since Blocking Diode functions as an "Open" switch during Pulse Offtime; The off pulse lets coil discharge towards the cap again so you get almost twice the bang for the buck. This seems to evidently help water cap prevent discharge by having that extra pulse keep the voltage up. The open switch means that on the off pulse, it is the same as being disconnected so it has to go somewhere and finds its way to ground and the only way it can do that is by going towards the cell. Switching Diode (55) of Figure (3-22) prevents Bidirectional electron flow (current flow in one direction only) since Blocking - Diode (55) only conducts "current flow" in the direction of schematic-arrow while being placed in-line with VIC Circuit impedance interaction (R1 + Z2 + Z3 .•. Re), as mathematically extrapolated in Circuit Equation (Eq 9) ... Diode (55) being placed between Secondary Pickup Coil (52) and Resonant Charging Choke (56) to act as an electronic switch in open-position during pulse offtime (T2) of Figure (7-8) while preventing electron flow in reverse direction when Inductor (L1) collapsing electromagnetic field (FLl) produces another unipolar pulse wave-form ( 64a - 64b) ... producing unipolar voltage wave-form (64a xxx 64n) during repeated pulse-signal (46a xxx 46n) on-time (Tla xxx TIn) ... allowing the formation of an gated pulse- frequency pulse-train (64a/64b - T3 - 64a/64b) when pulse off-time (T3) is greater than time-period (T2) ... input-signal (49a xxx 49n) being a Pulse-Train where (T2) pulse offtime (T2) is adjusted to allows Unipolar Pulse-Train (64a xxx T3 xxx 64n) ... outputting Voltage-wave signal (64a xxx 64n) being a pulse-frequency doubler due to Inductance Reactance (FL) of Inductor Coil (56) of Figure (3-22) when
collapsing magnetic field (FI) of Figure (7-3b) re-cuts coil-wrap (Ll) during each pulse off-time (T2) ... producing a second unipolar voltage wave-form (64b) during the rise and fall of magnetic field (71), as further illustrated in (620) of Figure (7-1). MAN! He is long winded... So we know 1. Diode keeps potentials and current in one direction only acting as switch to "disconnect" inductor from circuit on off pulse. 2. Diode is obviously between secondary and charging choke 3. Collapsing inductor causes UNIPOLAR pulse..so polarity stays same in the forward direction. 4. Collapsing unipolar pulse is "pulse-frequency doubler" so cell gets 2 pulses for 1 pulse input. 5. Sounds like when off time exceeds on time, off time is adjusted to ensure that the unipolar pulse train continues with consistency. The first reference of bifilar in the tech brief on page 6-3 states: "Resonant Choke Coils (56/62) of Figure (3-23) (Memo WFC 422 DA) are composed of 430F or 430FR inductance stainless steel film coated (hi dielectric value) wire (typically .004 Ga. or smaller) which are axially (spiralled) Bifilar wound about core bobbin (502), forming individual spiral-wrap (inner to outer circumference and being equally-length) coils (501a xxx 501n) electrically connected in sequencial order to form resistive pickup coil (503)." Sounds like bifilars are definitely connected in sequence.
#19 (permalink) 09-03-2007, 09:32 AM
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Bifilar pulsing
Aaron, I agree with all of that. But I just did another quick test and put a pretty big
bifilar coil(air core) between the SS and the battery reversing the connection of one strand (like you did in the latest drawing). I actually got a bad charging rate compared to without the added coil , but I had a battery on the end, not a cell, eventough I tought there would be quite some similarities. Weird... Mario
#20 (permalink) 09-03-2007, 01:45 PM
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so what would be an easy method for winding a pankace coil? seems like it would be difficult to keep it from popping up on itself. could it be glued down onto a piece of cardboard or plastic sheeting? that would be a mess if it wasnt wound the way you wanted or if the coil needed alterations. perhaps a dowel in the center and two pieces of cardboard close together, and would inbetween the two pieces of cardboard? that would take a long time though.
#21 (permalink) 09-03-2007, 05:15 PM
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Hi Mario, Try charging up a regular capacitor both ways and see the difference. The WFC will have lower impedance than a battery so less back pressure holding in the charge in the inductors. If the battery is fairly charged, maybe too much back pressure. Sounds like the inductors you had are too small for battery application but maybe big enough for wfc. Also, I saw a reference that the capacitance of the inductor should be more than the capacitor. page 7-9 tech brief Capacitance Reactance Capacitance Reactance is determined by the insulation resistance (Rs+ Re) and Inductance (LIIL2) interacting together during D.C. Pulsing. Dielectric property of water opposes amp leakage (Re) while another property of water takes-on an "Electrical Charge". Water temperature (Rt) (cool-to-the-touch) keeps (Re) constant since amp flow remains minimal. Plate Inductance (Lc) is Inductance Reactance of Inductor (L1 ) and Inductance Reactance of lnductor (L2) in series with Resonant Capacitor (140 -170) of Figure (7-6) as to (690) of Figure (7-8). In terms of Component Reactance, Inductors (LIIL2) should always be larger than Capacitor (ER) of Figure (7-2) in order to maximize amp restriction to enhance "Voltage Deflection" (SS' - 617a xxx 617n - RR') of Figure (7-4) and, is expressed by :
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#22 (permalink) 09-03-2007, 05:29 PM
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Looks like a nightmare to me to wind those pancakes with small wire!! lol Interesting things: Trifilar Coils
#23 (permalink) 09-03-2007, 05:51 PM
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I wondered if Meyer ever did the flat coil style for the chokes: "The Voltage Intensifier Circuit is a bifilar pancake coil transformer which provides distributed capacitance and inductance to the tube sets in the Cell. Its function is to manage the transfer of potential through the Cell, while inhibiting the passage of current by the circuit." I see absolutely no proof of this claim. Probably idea for taking advantage of concept but.... That isn't Meyer's words, that is from some stuff posted at: OS:Water Fuel Cell - PESWiki page 6-3 "axially (spiralled) Bifilar wound about core bobbin (502), forming individual spiral-wrap (inner to outer circumference and being equally-length) coils (501a xxx 501n) electrically connected in sequencial order to form resistive pickup coil" The resultant tri-coil configuration (Inductance core 53 - choke coils 56/62 - primary coil 26 - secondary coil 52), now, allows magnetic field coupling (71a xxx 71n) to pass through both resonant-coils (56/62) and secondary coil (52) simultaneously when
primary coil (26) is pulsed energized by way of incoming pulse-train (46a xxx 46n). In doing so, magnetic flux-lines (71a xxx 7In) are induced into spiral-wrap coils (505a xxx 505n) to produce inductance coupling (511a xxx 51 In) between each secondary spiralcoils (505a xxx 505n) which are parallel formed to expanding magnetic flux-lines (71a xxx 71n) ... producing step up voltage potential of positive electrical intensity (positive voltage potential) by way of inductance / capacitance interaction across secondary coilassembly (52) while keeping opposition to electromagnetic build up to a minimum. That means PRIMARY, SECONDARY AND BIFILARS (can be) on same core so they are wrapped around a core and not flat style. At least in this description. The tech brief is a compilation of just about all his chronological events. 7-4 The circular-spiral turns of wire (forming parallel electrical surfaces) is separated by an Insulated Dielectric Coating Material which forms a series of capacitors (Cda xxx Cdn) when magnetic flux-lines (619a xxx 619n) produces Electromagnetic Coupling Field (621) during pulse on-time (Tl), as illustrated in (640) of Figure (7-3) as to (690) of Figure (7-8). 10-2 The resultant Amp Inhibiting Circuit Figure (10-1) as to Figure (10-3 A/B) further allows amp restriction (minimizing current leakage) to be continued even if applied "Voltage Amplitude" is increased. The length and diameter size of the copper-wire spiral wrapped coil (56/62) of Figure (10-1) being paired together and electrically energized in conjunction with applied Voltage Pulse-Frequency determines how much "Amp Leakage" will occur across capacitor Gap (Cp) while "Voltage Pulse-Potential" (Va xxx Vn/49a xxx 49n) of "Opposite polarity" (B+/B-) is/are allowed to be applied across "Electrical Voltage Plates" (Voltage-Zones) (66/67). To reduce amp leakage still further, the copper wire of both Resonant Charging Chokes (56/62) can be replaced with an magnetically ~ductive stainless steel wire (430F/FR) having a resistive value (Ohms) to the flow of electrons while taking on the capacitance and inductance characteristic of a coil wire. VIC Bifilar Wrap Coil-Assembly (10-3B) and VIC Dual Coil Wrap-Assembly (103A) both utilize either "E"& “I” and "U" Inductance Core configurations to concentrate Mutual Inductance Fields (Rp l/Rp2) in order to optimize Amp Inhibiting Process (750) of Figure (7-14). "E" “I” core shape (10-3B) is most preferable since amp spike surge is minimize during repetitive pulsing operations. Many examples he gives of primary/secondary and both inductors on same core. NOT pancake style...so misinformation by anyone who says it is? When primary is pulsed ON, the magnetic field in the core that is created will cause the inductors to charge instantaneously and NOT just from the + potential moving into the inductors. It will be both. Also the OFF pulse inductive collapse moving forward is NOT just the from the inductors alone but the field created by primary coil turning off collapsing. I think this is the direction to go... too many references by Meyer himself where all the coils are on the SAME core.
#24 (permalink) 09-03-2007, 06:13 PM
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This pic shows a literal representation of the unicore concept where the primary/secondary and the 2 chokes are on the same core. If both are bifilar, then primary/secondary are wrapped together and the 2 chokes are wrapped together.
When + pulses into primary at the top into the light blue wire, the primary coil will have a NORTH field at the top...you can see how the wire comes off the core and are wound that there will be north at top so SOUTH at bottom of primary in this situation. If secondary is wound together, the BOTTOM wire will need to go through diode to POSITIVE CHARGING CHOKE, which will give a NORTH field at the BOTTOM of the pos charging choke...like in the square coil. The right diagram with the pole core is just a visualization easier of what is really happening with magnetic field in core. Anyway, the charging pos choke will have south at top. The negative choke will have the identical field as the pos choke. A BENEFIT of this arrangement and the only one that makes common sense is that when the primary is charged with north at top that follows around to the south part of charging chokes and up through the chokes and back to south on primary. so in the SQUARE coil diagram, you see that the magnetic field goes north in the CLOCKWISE DIRECTION. Not only does the chokes charge from the potential going into the chokes from the secondary, BUT, they also get a kick from the magnetic field of the CORE being charged from primary will will give a BOOST to what is happening in the chokes. THIS AMPLIFIES THE CHOKES.
THIS IS ALL HAPPENING DURING THE ON PULSE. When pulse turns OFF, charged chokes collapse in SAME DIRECTION because of blocking diode, which is the same thing as opening a switch and disconnecting the chokes there. Therefore, they will find ground in the FORWARD direction to "negative"on secondary. During OFF pulse, primary also collapses and secondary directs that into the chokes also in the forward direction. For each time you pay for ONE pulse into the system in this arrangement, you get TWO pulses to the WFC capacitor.
#26 (permalink) 09-04-2007, 10:27 AM
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That sounds great Aaron thanks, have you tested it yet? I also wonder if square or even toroidal core (ferrite) is better than just one straight rod core, Bedini's coils are open.
regards Mario
#27 (permalink) 09-04-2007, 11:54 AM Join Date : Apr 200 7 Post s: 42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron For each time you pay for ONE pulse into the system in this arrangement, you get TWO pulses to the WFC capacitor.
Great Aaron. Have you had a chance to compare the signal with a scope?
#28 (permalink) 09-04-2007, 04:59 PM
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Hi Mario, That is a great point about the coil being open in Bedini systems. So, the one on the right with the straight rod core may even be better. Only testing will show. Kenny, I have not tested any common core systems yet. Just been looking exactly at what Meyer was doing and this seems to be it based on his own words. If I were to do the one on the right with the straight open ended core, I would probably start with bundled welding rod...should let go of magnetic field pretty quick. That is all I used in the Bedini coils.
#29 (permalink) 09-04-2007, 11:39 PM
Aar on CoFoun der & Mode rator
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In the skype chat, furvertme said: ""unipolar" "pulse frequency double" The inductor does not produce a second pulse, it continues the first one's current. Though measuring V at the inductor would resemble another pulse, the V at the WFC does not pulse, it just continues to charge for a short time." This may be true. When I was looking at the scope when I did the bifilar test, I saw higher voltage but at the same frequency. I did not see twice as many pulses for the same time period. POSSIBLY, this might be correct. But with Meyer's pulse diagrams..he shows the square going in at 50/50 duty cycle and the output are triangular pulses 1 for each on pulse and 1 for each off indicating double pulse.
So we need to figure this one out for sure. He/she also says: "[1:47:06 PM] furvertme says: series inductor switching power supplies can produce very high voltages since they use the back emf or flyback voltage to perform the boost. It does not limit to 2 times supply. The 2 times supply is a simple rule for cap charging circuits that are not pulse driven just load dump and recharge. In those the inductor peaks the charging current and continue to charge beyond the supply until it drains flux back to zero at about double supply. This is only true if the supply is stable DC during the entire charging. [1:49:58 PM] furvertme says: AaronsDesign4.pdf or 5 files show a simple way to convert a Lawton circuit to operate as a boost switcher [1:51:35 PM] furvertme says: Ipk = 2 x Iout,max x (Vout / Vin,min) Tdon = (L x Ipk) / (Vout - Vin) Output voltage is regulated by controlling the duty cycle. Vout = ((Ton / Tdon) + 1) x Vin Ripple voltage is directly proportional to diode conduction time. Tdon max = (L x Ipk) / (Vout - Vin,max) [1:52:36 PM] furvertme says: version 5 added a second diode and a cap between the output and the WFC to better control the power results. [1:53:41 PM] furvertme says: Warning: This can produce HV with some serious currents and thus can be dangerous to people" --------The red part I highlighted indicates a misunderstanding that the collapsing magnetic field is NOT back emf. When you ACTIVELY apply power to a coil, you get back EMF DURING the application of power. It is coming back countering the applied field AT THE SAME TIME. The collapsed magnetic field that is time compressed to boost voltage is an event that happens AFTER the power to the coil is shut off. The "flyback voltage" or collapsed magnetic field has nothing to do with back emf. They are NOT the same thing.
I'll try to get that doc. That is a different Aaron by the way in case anyone is wondering. Aaron Hall in the H2Earth.org skype chat is doing great work. I'll post a link or upload somewhere if I can get it.
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#32 (permalink) 09-06-2007, 06:57 AM
Aar on CoFoun der & Mode rator
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I can't comment on what this circuit will do, but here it is: http://furvert.net/JHootenConsulting...onsDesign4.pdf
#33 (permalink) 09-09-2007, 06:11 PM
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Aaron I would like to give your "Single core layout" a try! What gauge wire would you recommend and how many windings for the primary & secondary as well as for the inductors? Would you wind the secondary on top of the primary, but the inductors bifilar, i.e. the two wires next to each other? Just after I posted my question above, I saw your words: "If both are bifilar, then primary/secondary are wrapped together and the 2 chokes are wrapped together." So I assume both the primary/secondary and chokes are all wrapped bifilar? Last edited by passion1 : 09-09-2007 at 06:13 PM.
#34 (permalink) 09-10-2007, 04:57 AM
Aar on CoFoun der & Mode rator
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Hi Passion1, This is the same style I'm working on now. On one side of core are the bifilar primary/secondary. On the other side, bifilar chokes. Chokes have to be so that when everything is charged Norths are diagonal...otherwise when primary is charged, chokes will emit north field opposing field from power coils.
I am mostly interested in this unicore method in addition to the rotary method but am not going to mess with the rotary method yet.
#35 (permalink) 09-10-2007, 05:15 AM
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Passion1, windings, etc... I would do as close to what Meyer's describes in his writings. I am not very good at calculating out what length, etc... is best, awg, size of core, etc... there are a lot of online calculators that make that easy. There is a dual bifilar with a unicore setup already made that I will test for this application. actually 2 quadfilars but will use them as bifilar. If I were to start from scratch and wind from scratch, I'm not sure. JH is a good one to ask in the h2earth skype chat.
#36 (permalink) 09-20-2007, 07:41 AM
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size of chokes - very important
According to Meyer, each of his chokes were 11.6k ohms or 11,600! That is huge resistance for a coil. At 44 awg copper wire, that is about 4600 feet long each. at 58 awg about 170 feet or at 60awg it is about 107 feet long. I wouldn't use too small of wire (bigger awg #) because too fragile and for practical purposes. Anyway, that is a LOT of wire. IMPORTANT NOTE: Meyer says he is NOT using resistive element to reduce volts as resistance consumes power..like a resistor. INSTEAD, he is using the MAGNETIC Field in the choke coils to choke the current. This isn't a secret but I say this so that people aren't mislead into thinking that because the coils are huge resistance (11.6k ohms) that is is all about resistance. When the coils are charged, there is impedance...back emf that his holding back current. So please take note of this. Also, NOBODY that I know of is using chokes this big so if people want to do it Meyer style, it would be a good idea to use chokes this big. At 44 AWG, pretty small wire itself...that is almost 10,000 feet of wire for BOTH chokes!! Meyer specifically to get more voltage to the cell for same input...increase turns on chokes.
#37 (permalink) 01-14-2008, 04:03 PM
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Aaron, what is the "rectifier" and "rheostat" used for in your drawings?
#38 (permalink) 01-15-2008, 07:19 PM Join Date : Dec 200 7 Post s: 4
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Choke
HI Aaron! Thank You for Your help to my. Now I want ask You about the importance direction of winding coils on magnetic core ( primary , secondary and two bifilar chokes ) for vic . In Your video 'Back EMF vs Collapsed Spikes', posted September 05, 2007 first pic show two different way direction of winding coil . Right coil is cross out - why? Is this direction of winding coil not working for Stan Meyer vic or for phenomena - field collapses and reverses polarity-? .Must I wind coil only by way show in pic - left side? I am sorry for my bad english. Please about Your answer. Thank You All the best for You man70
#39 (permalink) 01-16-2008, 05:09 PM
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rectifier and rheostat
Quote:
Originally Posted by scoodidabop Aaron,
what is the "rectifier" and "rheostat" used for in your drawings? Just keeping consistent with Meyer's drawings.
#40 (permalink) 01-30-2008, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron According to Meyer, each of his chokes were 11.6k ohms or 11,600! That is huge resistance for a coil.
At 44 awg copper wire, that is about 4600 feet long each. at 58 awg about 170 feet or at 60awg it is about 107 feet long.
I wouldn't use too small of wire (bigger awg #) because too fragile and for practical purposes.
Anyway, that is a LOT of wire.
IMPORTANT NOTE: Meyer says he is NOT using resistive element to reduce volts as resistance consumes power..like a resistor. INSTEAD, he is using the MAGNETIC Field in the choke coils to choke the current. This isn't a secret but I say this so that people aren't mislead into thinking that because the coils are huge resistance (11.6k ohms) that is is all about resistance. When the coils are charged, there is impedance...back emf that his holding back current. So
please take note of this.
Also, NOBODY that I know of is using chokes this big so if people want to do it Meyer style, it would be a good idea to use chokes this big.
At 44 AWG, pretty small wire itself...that is almost 10,000 feet of wire for BOTH chokes!!
Meyer specifically to get more voltage to the cell for same input...increase turns on chokes.
thats not huge resistance for a coil most automotive ignition coil secondary winding is in that range even higher in high performance like double i was wondering if you might share any meyers papers you might have that i might not have
#41 (permalink) 01-30-2008, 09:43 PM
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I came up with a simple way to use an ignition coil as a choke. I recommended it to a few people and they did get the highest voltage readings on the cell they ever saw...few hundred volts, but much higher than 2-4volts! The diode on + side, goes to the low voltage input + on the ignition coil...then the high voltage output goes to the + on the cell... neg terminal not needed...using it in series as a choke. Many people won't wind these coils as they need a lot of turns, but yes, the ignition coils are already in the 10k+ ohms range.
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#42 (permalink) 02-29-2008, 01:25 AM
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Can anyone out there provide these circuits?
I have a Pulse Freq. Generator. But, it does not have the Bifilar Chokes, and the Voltage Intensifier circuit. Can anyone out there provide the “rest of the circuitry�? I have reviewed the video (Stan Meyer WFC Bifilar Chokes), but I am not really sure exactly what I am looking at. I built and installed a working electrolyzer in an 8,000 lb. Custom Van. It has been working fine for several months. 22% better mileage. I want to make and install a High volt, High freq, low amp tube unit. I need the circuits in this video, and at the beginning of this post by Aaron. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozpRN...ater_Fuel_Cell Thank you, Norm elf@access4less.net
#43 (permalink) 06-06-2008, 08:42 PM
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Is this circuit a linear circuit? if not what is it?
#44 (permalink) 06-06-2008, 08:54 PM
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Maybe it would help if you explained what exactly do you mean with "linear circuit"
#45 (permalink)
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One of the chokes is "variable"? Do you accomplish this by building an adjustable core (sliding or scewing it in and out)? This would allow you to adjust the impedance? Am I thinking about this the right way? or am I way off? Thanks
#46 (permalink) 06-06-2008, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Jetijs Maybe it would help if you explained what exactly do you mean with "linear circuit" hehe, i'm afraid my knowledge of electronics is not what you would call sound..
therefore i searched on wiki and found this explentaion: "A linear circuit is an electric circuit in which, for a sinusoidal input voltage of frequency f, any output of the circuit (current through any component, voltage across any component, etc.) is also sinusoidal with frequency f. Note that the output need not be in phase with the input. Another (equivalent) way of defining a linear circuit is any electronic circuit whose output is a linear transform of its input, where linear means that f(ax1 + bx2) = af(x1) + bf(x2). Some examples are amplifiers, differentiators, and integrators, or any circuit composed exclusively of ideal resistors, capacitors, inductors, op-amps (in the "nonsaturated" regime), and other "linear" circuit elements. Linear circuits can be analyzed using the superposition principle, which, for example, allows Fourier analysis to be used." what i need to know is if the meyer cell does in fact have the characteristics described above...
#47 (permalink) 06-07-2008, 02:39 AM
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Seni or Mem ber Quote:
Originally Posted by octavian hehe, i'm afraid my knowledge of electronics is not what you would call
sound.. therefore i searched on wiki and found this explentaion:
"A linear circuit is an electric circuit in which, for a sinusoidal input voltage of frequency f, any output of the circuit (current through any component, voltage across any component, etc.) is also sinusoidal with frequency f. Note that the output need not be in phase with the input.
Another (equivalent) way of defining a linear circuit is any electronic circuit whose output is a linear transform of its input, where linear means that f(ax1 + bx2) = af(x1) + bf(x2). Some examples are amplifiers, differentiators, and integrators, or any circuit composed exclusively of ideal resistors, capacitors, inductors, op-amps (in the "nonsaturated" regime), and other "linear" circuit elements.
Linear circuits can be analyzed using the superposition principle, which, for example, allows Fourier analysis to be used."
what i need to know is if the meyer cell does in fact have the characteristics described above...
By that definition and my experience in electronics, and minimal experience with Meyer's set-up, I would say yes it's Linear up to the Coils (chokes). So I guess you could say it is "Modified Linear" Anyone else have anything I would be missing for him?
#48 (permalink) 06-07-2008, 03:47 AM
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VIC, bifilar chokes, Meyer, wfc, water capacitor, etc...
Hi Everyone, I probably get asked about the VIC/bifilar choke circuits more than anything else. I have been hesitant to post all the details because the results I had were not like Stan's and I don't want anyone going off on the wrong track in case I'm misinterpreting something. I'm not saying no results, just not the same. The closest thing to this VIC circuit that I have seen is in a "pulse forming network" circuit for radar transmitter plates in Nike missile silos. All these docs are online and public domain now, but again, that doesn't mean anything. I'm just saying it resembles Stan's circuit closer than anything else I've seen. Here is what I believe is a necessary concept that must be throughly explored or it doesn't matter what circuit you have...if, you want to use only voltage potential to separate water with no current or bare minimum. INSULATION to make the cell a capacitor in the true sense of capacitor. Stan showed using delrin to encase an entire inner/outer tube setup. I have seen attempts with van de graff's, etc.. and other high voltage means to accomplish pure electrostatic separation and nobody has succeeded in any significant ways. The voltage is leaking all over and dust and other stuff is attracted to the cell from the floor, etc... that means it is not a capacitor...it is not holding that voltage to any high degree in the water cell itself. If that is the case, there will never be enough voltage for true electrostatic separation. The best I have seen is high voltage going to a gap between 2 rods. WHICH IS WHAT MEYER'S VERY FIRST PATENT WAS ALL ABOUT IN HIS CANADIAN PATENT...ALSO MAKING MAGNETIC GAS. Look 1st: Canadian Patent # CA 1213671 (look at last drawing with the 2 rods and voltage applied at gap...NOT tubes or plates.) Look 2nd: Canadian Patent # CA 1228833 How many people have attempted the Stan Meyer process and measured voltage at the cell to see that it is all gobbled up no matter what is thrown at it...2 volts, 5 volts, 20 volts, 80 volts, etc...? Has anyone measured with a HV probe 10k? 20k? 30kv? 40? 50? +? I haven't seen this...not to say nobody has done it, BUT, where is it? Everyone is measuring an inner/outer tube setup and finding virtually no voltage...why? The annode-cathode set is short circuited. Put a wire between the + and - of any capacitor and measure how much voltage you get? little to none...effectively short circuiting the capacitor. Through the water by whatever conductivity does exist, the top edge of the annode and cathode are short circuited to each other. The bottom edges are short circuited through the water to each other. The annode outer side is short circuited through the water to
any exposed metal on the cathode. The ONLY place the voltage should be directed between the annode/cathode set is in the gap and nowhere else. If there is all the short circuited leakage, how can anyone expect to find any high voltage in that water capacitor? They won't. Stan showed a delrin encasement around the annode with small openings at the top and bottom. The cathode is inside the annode. As water is drawn into the opening at the bottom of the delrin encasement, the ONLY PLACE THE WATER EVEN TOUCHES IS THE GAP. The inner part of the annode and outer part of the cathode is the ONLY part where the water touches without the voltage leaking out everywhere else. What that means is that the annode/cathode tube set really has become a capacitor to lock in as much voltage as possible where it counts...the gap where you want the water to split from nothing more than pure voltage potential. Even if I had the 100% foolproof VIC circuit, it would do nobody any good at all hooking it up to a short circuited cell. I'm not a machinist and am not interested in dealing with delrin. There is a product called "SUPER CORONA DOPE." It is a xylene lacquer type of mix that you can brush on to metal or whatever and then it hardens like a glass and resists 4000volts per mil or 40,000 per mm thick. If you had 2 flat plates and each was thoroughly coated with 1mm each, that is a dielectric strength high enough to hold back 80,000 volts. Another option I have no tried yet but bought some to mess with is PLASTIDIP...the liquid plastic stuff you can dip pliers into and it makes a rubbery coating on the handle. I think putting some kind of plug in the top and bottom on a annode cathode set and dipping the whole thing in plastidip could encase it like the delrin. Anyway, the super corona dope painted on could do the same...just some ideas. Stan shows a lot of bare metal tubes...it is 100% possible they were thoroughly coated in corona dope (been around a long time), etc... just speculation but as a possibility, something to consider. Even if not, he DID show the delrin encasement concept in the tech manual, etc... This message is just to show where my focus is and where I think there needs to be ample collaboration on is to validate and verify the concept of making a true water capacitor then applying higher voltage to it to see if there is high voltage that does actually build in the gap since it isn't short circuited elsewhere. Since about November, I have had this project in various stages. I would love to see others play in this area. I think it is effort in vain to focus on the circuits that just pump voltage into a black hole. Anyway, check this patent for the best simple start for anyone to see...the CONCEPT accomplishes what Stan Meyer is showing with the delrin encasement. Water decomposition method and ... - Google Patents Also read this page thoroughly...study it: K9 Passage of electricity through gases
Ionization by collision is where a lot of water gas is produced without having to increase the power to the cell...as electrons are freed, they accelerate towards the annode knocking out electrons from other water molecules on the way...that is FREE water gas production without extra input. The higher the voltage, the stronger the effect, but again, pointless unless you can maintain true HV in the gap. This effect will be there with any true HV potential/electrostatic separation of water.
#49 (permalink) 06-07-2008, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Aaron Stan showed a delrin encasement around the annode with small openings at the top and bottom. The cathode is inside the annode. As water is drawn into the opening at the bottom of the delrin encasement, the ONLY PLACE THE WATER EVEN TOUCHES IS THE GAP. The inner part of the annode and outer part of the cathode is the ONLY part where the water touches
without the voltage leaking out everywhere else. What that means is that the annode/cathode tube set really has become a capacitor to lock in as much voltage as possible where it counts...the gap where you want the water to split from nothing more than pure voltage potential. Hi Aaron, i'm afraid i'm having some problems picturing those small openings between the solid dielectric and the annode. do you think it would be possible to explain that part of it in more detail? Thanks anyways for all the great information
#50 (permalink) 06-07-2008, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by
Redmeanie By that definition and my experience in electronics, and minimal experience with Meyer's set-up, I would say yes it's Linear up to the Coils (chokes).
So I guess you could say it is "Modified Linear"
Anyone else have anything I would be missing for him?
Thanks! But why just up to the Chokes? why not all the way to the capasitor?
#51 (permalink) 06-07-2008, 03:35 PM
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wfc encasement
Hi Octavian, This is straight out of Meyer's WFC Tech Manual/Brief:
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#52 (permalink) 06-07-2008, 05:35 PM
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Thanks, i just remembered i have the entire WFC manual in PDF
#53 (permalink) 07-09-2008, 10:58 PM
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Mem ber Quote:
The ONLY place the voltage should be directed between the annode/cathode set is in the gap and nowhere else. If there is all the short circuited leakage, how can anyone expect to find any high voltage in that water capacitor? They won't.
Even if I had the 100% foolproof VIC circuit, it would do
nobody any good at all hooking it up to a short circuited cell.
Hi everyone! It’s nice to have found a place with so many like-minded people. This is a little off subject with the forum title but has some relevance. I did a small amount of testing with High voltage on parallel plates. This is not quite the same as cylinders since plate capacitors don’t create the same inductance as a cylindrical capacitor can. Much the same way single wire inductors don’t create the same capacitance that a bifilar can. Hmm, I wonder what would happen if you SS strips in parallel wound in a bifilar configuration...Would you have a high inductance capaciter? Anyway back to the HV. Along time back I tried tightly encapsulating plates in .065 Plexiglas. I tried this on both plates and one at a time. Applied voltage around of about 10kv. This cell was 6" PVC about 36" tall with a Plexiglas window cut out so I could see what was going on inside. I made a Plexiglas base that threaded into the cell so that I could use numerous plate configurations in the same cell. The plates consisted of 304L SS 3" x 24". With both plates encapsulated there was no visible H production. Maybe because of the plate spacing? I believe it was the anode but it’s been some time so I can’t remember which plate was encapsulated when this happen. I can look back at notes. The encapsulation started to expand Visibly. I quickly reached to cut the power but held back and decided to see what happen. A pressure was building up inside the Plexiglas. Until it finally cracked open and shorted out. Was this acting like a reveres fuel cell? The proton moving through a dielectric membrane (in this case Plexiglas) devoid of any electrons. I thought about recreating this experiment with a tube taped into the plexiglas to release the pressure but got busy and never returned to it.
Getting back to Bifilar. My understanding of Meyers process requires 2 coils in series but coupled in parallel. Connected in a way that allows electrons to flow in the same direction in each wire. Add to this the pulsing duty-cycle. In this arrangement the voltage would lead by 1/4. The voltage would spike and cascade at the plates during on time. Then the back EMF during the off time would draw the current back to the coil prior to it leaking into the water. Has anyone ever noticed the spiral movement of Gas in and on top of the water from plate to plate? It looks to me like the gas is moving in a loop. This is easyer to see with plates then cilinders.
#54 (permalink) 07-10-2008, 06:17 PM
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Has anyone here had substantially better results with a high voltage resonant coil?
#55 (permalink) 07-13-2008, 02:49 AM
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after reading the tech brief, i was left more confused than i was before hand. so i read the original WFC patent 4936961. it made life ALOT simpler for me, told me what gauges to use for each coil/choke, how many winds and what size to make the core. i know the tech breif might be a more advanced model, but i'm sure the things he mentions in the patent isn't stuff your allow to fudge the facts on.
#56 (permalink) 07-14-2008, 05:46 AM
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Sorry for the double post, but i thought i should bump to make sure people see this info. just read a patent for the control module, where the bifiler choke your worried about is used and sourced. http://www.waterfuelcell.org/WFCproj...O9207861A1.pdf that coil is for a MUCH MUCH more advanced circuit have a look
#57 (permalink) 07-16-2008, 07:29 PM Join Dat e: Jul 200 8 Post s: 2
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Hi I have build my pulse generator and a WFC 2 SS 304 2 inch square 1/8 thick for test purpose. Gap 1mm I'm using an transformer 12v -> 120. + wire is connected to the blocking diode one wire in the bifilar coil (2 times 300 turns gauge 19) and the + of the "water capacitor"(ER) -> back to the coil then - of e transformer. My question is if there is no water in my cell i can get 1000V+ reading my MY64 multimeter, but when I add water I get 2V max why ? Is it because of the bifilar coil is no more resonating with the cell ? Thx
Gab
#58 (permalink) 07-17-2008, 08:02 AM
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need to insulate the tubes
As said Aaron, you need to insulate the tubes/pipes, in and out. May be you could read this page and the others relating to Meyer: http://waterfuel.100free.com/wf_meye...n_qiman13.html regards MDG
,
#59 (permalink) 07-21-2008, 09:08 AM
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thank's a lot Aaron. I will applied this one to my next experiments.
#60 (permalink) 07-21-2008, 06:43 PM
Aar on CoFoun der & Mode rator
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Hi, according to Meyer's info for the water cells, he shows he went towards insulating the tube sets with the Delrin encasement. I haven't seen any video of that or pics and perhaps he just wanted to cover that in patents, I don't know...but with the voltages he is working with and what I have seen....the dielectric of the delrin locks in the potential to create more of a real capacitor. It keeps the voltage pressure in with less leakage.
epost blip from other message: Also read this page thoroughly...study it: K9 Passage of electricity through gases (I'd recommend copying this entire page because it is a great summary of ionization by collision) Ionization by collision is where a lot of water gas is produced without having to increase the power to the cell...as electrons are freed, they accelerate towards the annode knocking out electrons from other water molecules on the way...that is FREE water gas production without extra input. The higher the voltage, the stronger the effect, but again, pointless unless you can maintain true HV in the gap. This effect will be there with any true HV potential/electrostatic separation of water. If the ions move 25,000 faster in air than in water, once gas is separated as best possible, then the hho can be further destabilized by this method through virtually the same process outside of the wfc.
I'd use a true water capacitor and a true air capacitor afterwards using same processes to lock in the voltages. Meyer continually showed that destabilizing the oxygen by stripping more electrons keep cranking up the power you get out of the same volume of gas so 1 liter is not 1 liter (in terms of explosive power). Hypergas (in the Wiseman Brown's Gas world) is possibly the same or similar effect on the gases being destabilized by this unintentionally.
#62 (permalink) 11-24-2008, 02:20 PM
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Ionization by collision seems quite similar to what goes on inside a Xenon flash tube I.e. an excitor voltage produces the necessary electrons for current flow to take place inside a xenon tube. An excitor voltage is necessary because noble gases have no "free electrons", so they must be supplied. Maybe similar to the reaction taking place in the cell? I would like to see what would happen if pure water vapour is put inside a xenon tube and it is flashed...
#63 (permalink) 12-24-2008, 05:18 PM
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Hey guys, good info. I just wanted to post my results. For me, bifilar inductors have never worked on the WFC capacitor. I have been experimenting for a few months playing with inductors. I built a water capacitor that is not really good, but has some capacitance. When I pulse it with 400 volt radiant pulses from a solid state bedini charger, I can charge the capacitor to a certain value - call this 100%. If I add any type of charging choke, the charge in the capacitor drops by about 25%. The largest bifilar charging chokes drop the maximum voltage charge by 50% or more and it won't climb anymore. If I wind the coils in a specific way, I get reduced power and no spikes. If I wind them a different way, even with using the blocking diode, I notice that there are AC VOLTAGE spikes (not pure DC). I have not found any possible way to hook up the bifilar charging chokes, I have tried about 5 different sizes of chokes from tiny 10 turn to 1500 turns and everything in between and there has never been an appreciable gain in maximum voltage gain in the capacitor (WFC). Has anyone actually tested this on a bench and proved that you can gain more voltage using bifilar inductors in series with the water fuel cell? I am using pulsed DC square waves. All of the reactive radiant voltage comes from the main pulsing transformer coil, and no additional energy comes from the bifilar coils. How can the bifilar coils charge the water when no current is passing in the bifilar coils. You need current to charge the bifilar coils, but my water capacitor has no appreciable resistance, so the bifilar coils don't charge, therefore they have no stored magnetic energy. I am lost as to how the bifilar coils do anything if you are trying to use a high voltage low current charge.... You need current to induce flyback voltage in a given inductor right? In my case, the best results in charging come from having no charging chokes at all. I could be wiring the bifilar inductors wrong. I am going to try the tests again, because I am definetely not saying that I know what I'm doing. I am simply providing this information so I can get some feedback. I hope to hear from you guys! This has been great reading, thanks for all the input so far!
#64 (permalink) 12-24-2008, 05:52 PM
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CoFoun der & Mode rator
chokes and cell
Hi Huckmubb, What voltage did you measure on your wfc when pulsing 400v? The inner/outer tube setup needs to be encased in an insulator to isolate it from the water bath to lock in the potential. The chokes should be wired EM coupled style like Tesla's pancake coils.
#65 (permalink) 12-24-2008, 07:01 PM
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Gu es t Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckmubb Hey guys, good info. I just wanted to post my results. For me, bifilar inductors
have never worked on the WFC capacitor.
I have been experimenting for a few months playing with inductors. I built a water capacitor that is not really good, but has some capacitance. When I pulse it with 400 volt radiant pulses from a solid state bedini charger, I can charge the capacitor to a certain value - call this 100%. If I add any type of charging choke, the charge in the capacitor drops by about 25%. The largest bifilar charging chokes drop the maximum voltage charge by 50% or more and it won't climb anymore. If I wind the coils in a specific way, I get reduced power and no spikes. If I wind them a different way, even with using the blocking diode, I notice that there are AC VOLTAGE spikes (not pure DC). I have not found any possible way to hook up the bifilar charging chokes, I have tried about 5 different sizes of chokes from tiny 10 turn to 1500 turns and everything in
between and there has never been an appreciable gain in maximum voltage gain in the capacitor (WFC). Has anyone actually tested this on a bench and proved that you can gain more voltage using bifilar inductors in series with the water fuel cell?
I am using pulsed DC square waves. All of the reactive radiant voltage comes from the main pulsing transformer coil, and no additional energy comes from the bifilar coils. How can the bifilar coils charge the water when no current is passing in the bifilar coils. You need current to charge the bifilar coils, but my water capacitor has no appreciable resistance, so the bifilar coils don't charge, therefore they have no stored magnetic energy. I am lost as to how the bifilar coils do anything if you are trying to use a high voltage low current charge.... You need current to induce flyback voltage in a given inductor right?
In my case, the best results in charging come from having no charging chokes at all.
I could be wiring the bifilar inductors wrong. I am going to try the tests again, because I am definetely not saying that I know what I'm doing. I am simply providing this information so I can get some feedback. I hope to hear from you guys! This has been great reading, thanks for all the input so far!
The same thing happened to me when I did the bifilar setup with toroid . It blows my mind how deceptively simple the Meyer technology appears on the surface, yet how it becomes a rabbit hole you keep tumbling down. It looks like pulsed current electrolysis, but isn't. It looks like simple pulsed high voltage, but current is voltage over resistance so that would imply pulsed high current. Impurities in water only changed the resonant frequency, they did not significantly alter the power requirements. This can only be if the conductivity of the water was taken out of the equation through lack of real current through the water, which of course is what Meyer was trying to do. It really looks to me like the cell was powered by displacement current or longitudinal electron oscillations, even time/gravity waves since longitudinal (compression/expansion) electron density oscillations generate those. http://www.cazv.cz/2003/2002/tech1_02/Strebkov.pdf -- check out the PDF link , it says that power could be sent over copper, steel, water, damp earth without resistive losses. That explains why Meyer was using stainless steel
coils at one point, to truly restrict the regular current while allowing through this longitudinal energy that ignores resistance anyway. So when people talk about restricting amps and allowing through only voltage, that is kind of misleading because someone could say like I did, "If you put voltage across the water gap, the water resistance will see that voltage and create current. It's Ohm's Law. To cut off that current, you'd have to cut off the voltage." -- but not so if by "voltage" you mean something more like longitudinal / scalar / temporal / gravitational energy, aka some unconventional electron behavior. I think everyone deeply interested in the Meyer technology should study up on Avramenko
#66 (permalink) 01-03-2009, 06:10 PM
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This thread is really interesting. I just want to add my experiences about bifilar coils: 1) Pancake coils offer true voltage gain, no magnetic field gain and that is why the voltage gain is massive, each turn of wire neutralizes the next turn´s magnetic field, hence you have the skin effect between each succesive turn. 2) The "normal" cylindrical bifilar coil is a magnetic field gainer and is not very different from normal coils, just winding technique. 3) The conical coil is the most interesting since it gives a combination of voltage and magnetic field gains. Remember E = B/T; I = Dielec. flux/T; Z(Impedance) = E/I Hence we should never speak about bifilar coils without specifying our geometry of each successive turn in relation to eachother(angle). Anyway, Aaron, where can I find your WFC replication specifics and results?
Thanks in advance.
#67 (permalink) 01-03-2009, 10:06 PM
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WFC is not a capacitor. There are two of them in WFC...
#68 (permalink) 01-05-2009, 12:34 PM
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Are you speaking to me?? No clue what that was about. Anyway, Aaron do you have som stats about your WFC replication?
#69 (permalink) 01-05-2009, 04:15 PM
Aar on CoFoun der & Mode rator
Join Date: Feb 2007 Locati on: Washi ngton State Posts: 9,187 wfc results
hi, there are no miraculous results with my tests. I would recommend the RAVI document on the WFC for a good compilation of his test results.
#70 (permalink) 01-06-2009, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gauss Are you speaking to me?? No clue what that was about.
Anyway, Aaron do you have som stats about your WFC replication? Each of tube is a single capacitor, not just two of them.Two not connected electrically circuits. No current flow between plates because no electrical coupling between them.Think like John Kanzius.Listen to Tom Bearden. Two transmitters close enough, two antennas.Scalar wave interferometry. Got it ?
#71 (permalink) 01-06-2009, 06:43 AM
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Ok, thanks! I will check.
#72 (permalink) 01-08-2009, 09:38 PM
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Anyone tried to build the VIC so far? Surely someone must have, the later VIC is just an integrated version of the first famous one which is probably very primitve compared to the last one. If you look closely you will see there is no need for a viper arm to adjust one choke, anyone can help me on that one, how and why it is like this? Even the diode is left out in some late drawings, there are nodes etc.... He probably got very far in the last few years.
#73 (permalink) 04-19-2009, 11:02 PM
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Hi Aron you are in the right track. Have you thought about tried pure water (hi dielectric) and stainless steel coils bifilar arranged inside water as electrodes and inductors at the same time??? Electric shower resistance wire is stainless steel. Where you can put a load in a tank circuit? Remember voltage is also =Current x Resistance and will be very small between the plates if they are insulated like this because the dielectric permeability of corona... or any "plastic" is very small this way if you have 1mm insulation of a 10 dielectric constant and 1 mm of water 80 dielectric constant you have for example applying 40kv you have 32 kv/mm on the insulation and only 4 kv/mm on water. There are some patents witch mention at least 2500 constants for the insulation colision. That is easy with barium titanate. Any way visit and join our facebook cause Causes on Facebook | Power to the People we are trying to put money together for the construction of prototypes and as soon as we have working prototypes we can and know how to release this technology in the safest way for all of us.
thanks and good luck.
#74 (permalink) 02-09-2010, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by dankie The same thing happened to me when I did the bifilar setup with toroid .
It blows my mind how deceptively simple the Meyer technology appears on the surface, yet how it becomes a rabbit hole you keep tumbling down. It looks like pulsed current electrolysis, but isn't. It looks like simple pulsed high voltage, but current is voltage over resistance so that would imply pulsed high current. Impurities in water only changed the resonant frequency, they did not significantly alter the power requirements. This can only be if the conductivity of the water was taken out of the equation through lack of real current through the water, which of course is what Meyer was trying to do.
It really looks to me like the cell was powered by displacement current or longitudinal electron oscillations, even time/gravity waves since longitudinal (compression/expansion) electron density oscillations generate those.
http://www.cazv.cz/2003/2002/tech1_02/Strebkov.pdf
-- check out the PDF link , it says that power could be sent over copper, steel, water, damp earth without resistive losses. That explains why Meyer was using stainless steel coils at one point, to truly restrict the regular current while allowing through this longitudinal energy that ignores resistance anyway.
So when people talk about restricting amps and allowing through only voltage, that is kind of misleading because someone could say like I did, "If you put voltage across the water gap, the water resistance will see that voltage and create current. It's Ohm's Law. To cut off that current, you'd have to cut off the voltage." -- but not so if by "voltage" you mean something more like longitudinal / scalar / temporal / gravitational energy, aka some unconventional electron behavior. I think everyone deeply interested in the Meyer technology should study up on Avramenko Hey guy's, Try low voltage say 5 to 11vdc to polarize the water in just one set of tubes and then inject a square wave pulse between 3,000 and 12,000 Hz. Also try a saw tooth pulse=== Right, its not electrolysis and he never said it was. And yes, almost all of his description and diagram are intentionally misleading. Insted of, try this as a charging choke. Attached Images NEOGEN_BIFI LAR.jpg (140.6 KB, 40 views)
#75 (permalink) 02-09-2010, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Aaron
choke #56 is drawn incorrectly - they are wrapped in the same direction. I'll get to that later. I think choke are designed to reduce current, not to enhanced, thus it should be arranged in a self canceling way. The choke are used primarily for reducing current, not increasing voltage. I think figure 3-23 and 10-3B posted at the first post is correct. Everyone ever read this? Quote:
The WFC Voltage Intensifier Circuit (VIC) was especially
developed to restrict amp flow while allowing voltage potential of opposite polarity to perform the work of separating the bipolar electrically charged water molecule by way of opposite Electrical Attraction Foce known as "Electrical Stress". The distributed self inductance of each coil inherently prevents amp influxing (retards current flow) accross the water gap; while, simultaneo usly, the distributed capacitanc e of each coil causes an increase of applied voltage potential of opposite polarity of
equal intensity to be placed on opposite sides of the water molecule... performing the Electrical Polarizatio n Process. Each coil further functions as resonant charging choke coils to tune in to the dielectric properties of water, when the applied pulse frequency is adjusted to incur minimum amp flow, while voltage potential attempts to surge toward infinity if the electronic circuit would allow this to occur. Increasing the number of turns of each coil in direct
relationshi p to increasing applied pulse voltage amplitude increases the electrical stress accross at gap.
I think the weird shape of output can only be attained with FWBR. But I guess anyone having scope already knew this.