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FIRST TAKE Jean Smart takes the lead she’s long deserved as powerhouse Vegas comic Deborah Vance in Hacks On My Screen: Home Economics’ Topher Grace reveals his favorite TV and film memories, plus a penchant for karaoke From Demi Lovato to Paris Hilton—the emerging trend of the confessional doc
24
ON THE COVER How Desus & Mero and their protégée Ziwe reshaped the late-night landscape
34
THE DIALOGUE Renée Elise Goldsberry Michiel Huisman Juno Temple Rob McElhenney
50
THE PARTNERSHIP Cobra Kai’s William Zabka and Ralph Macchio dig into the decades-later resurrection of their Karate Kid characters
ON THE COVER Desus, Mero and Ziwe photographed exclusively for Deadline by Andrew Zaeh ON THIS PAGE Renée Elise Goldsberry photographed by Pari Dukovic/Peacock
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To watch Emmy®-eligible programs from STARZ, visit WWW.STARZFYC.COM and use the password StarzFyc2021 to access all episodes. EXPIRES 8/31/21 Starz and related service marks are the property of Starz Entertainment, LLC. Seduced: Inside the NXIVM Cult © MMXX Lions Gate Television Inc. All rights reserved. Men In Kilts: A Roadtrip with Sam and Graham © 2021 Sony Pictures Television Inc. All rights reserved. Emmy® is the trademarked property of ATAS/NATAS. All rights reserved. PBR-28917-21
Nicole Byer Nails It
p. 12
| On My Screen: Topher Grace p. 14 | True Confessions p. 18
Designing Jean With Hacks, Jean Smart elegantly skewers comedy, poignant storytelling and heartfelt humanity
COU RT ESY OF H BO M AX
BY ANTONIA BLYTH
4
D E A D L I N E .C O M / AWA R D S L I N E
SMART WOMAN Jean Smart as Deborah Vance in Hacks.
But Hacks is where she really gets to showcase her ability to balance the comedic with the tragic; belly laughs with perfectly-pitched pathos; wise-cracking warmth with wounded loneliness. As Deborah, Smart walks that line so elegantly, so subtly, we never notice her making the switch.
6
D E A D L I N E .C O M / AWA R D S L I N E
“Someone asked me recently, ‘How do you switch from comedy to drama
sell-by date. Enter Ava, played by Hannah Ein-
sometimes in the same character in
binder. A hip young writer sent by their
the same show?’” she says. “And I
shared agent to freshen up Deborah’s
guess my answer was basically that
material, Ava has fallen on hard times
that’s what life is… I’m prejudiced
after an ill-advised tweet met with
against people who don’t have a sense
cancel culture, and needs—but does
of humor. There are some people that
not want—to work with Deborah. And
just seem devoid of that. And I am not
Deborah resents an interloper in the
proud of the fact that I just don’t like
world she has fought and scratched
them, or at least I’m prejudiced against
to create for herself. The core of the
them. The most classic example being
show is the evolution of their connec-
our most recent president. I mean, it
tion, and how Deborah’s disappointed,
was almost to the point of being fas-
calcified heart slowly cracks open for
cinating, his complete lack of humor.
the awkward, recalcitrant Ava, whose
It’s such a joyous part of life, you know,
pretenses fall away in the face of
laughing and making people laugh. It’s
developing admiration for her mentor.
like sex.” Like Smart, Deborah is in her late
It’s the snap of Smart and Einbinder’s mutual humor that brings
60s. But unlike Smart, whose career
authentic life to Hacks. And Smart
these days only seems to soar higher,
pushed for Einbinder to be cast.
Deborah is facing the cancellation
“There was just something unique
of her Vegas show dates, her former
and quirky and unexpected about the
flame picking up with a 20-something
way she approached the [audition]
beauty, and the sense that her stand-
scene. I believed that she was a writer.
up material might have passed its
She just wasn’t a typical starlet. And
A NN E M A R IE FOX / H BO M AX
“THERE ISN’T LIGHT WITHOUT DARK, THERE ISN’T COMEDY WITHOUT TRAGEDY,” JEAN SMART SAYS, SITTING BACK IN HER PINK PAISLEY PRINT CHAIR. SHE’S TALKING ABOUT THE VAST VARIETY OF ROLES ON HER RESUME. LATELY, IN HACKS, SHE’S DEBORAH VANCE—A JOAN RIVERS-ESQUE VEGAS STAND-UP COMIC WITH A HOSTING SIDELINE ON QVC, AND IN MARE OF EASTTOWN, ANOTHER HBO SHOW, SHE’S HELEN FAHEY, THE FEISTY, BIGHEARTED MOM TO KATE WINSLET’S BELEAGUERED BLUE COLLAR COP.
VEGAS BABY Smart as Deborah Vance, in character as the stand-up whose dates are threatened.
she was just right there and she would
barely making rent. But you know,
characters. And I remember the
of like, ‘Oh dear. Well we know she’s
react to things in a very natural way,
when you’re young and single you
playwright, who was a gay woman,
good but yikes. What do we do with
a very immediate way. I was just very,
don’t care.”
said she couldn’t understand how I
her?’ You know what I mean?”
She credits her college acting
A year went by without so much as a meeting.
teacher Eve Roberts for reinforcing
had a relationship with a woman. And
echo of the teasing, punchy banter
that drive and self-belief. Roberts was,
I thought, I don’t understand that
between Deborah and Ava, Smart told
Smart says, “an incredible actress. She
because it’s like, how do you play a
nature of an acting career, the
Einbinder she had had a hand in the
was just remarkable.” Smart describes
serial killer? You’re not going to go out
way that acting ability can only be
deal—with a little added exaggeration.
once being given a seven-minute
and, you know...”
perceived subjectively. “That’s art, you
Once Einbinder had the part, in an
“I said, ‘I did go to bat for you. You
scene to do when Roberts knew there
After Smart’s television breakout
Smart muses on the capricious
know?” she says. “It’s not like being a
were only three minutes left in the
Designing Women, an enormous slew
professional athlete where if you are
producers that if they didn’t cast you
class. “I said, ‘Well, we’re not going to
of screen roles followed, from Emmy-
really, really good, you are going to be
I wasn’t going to do the show.’ And
go to be able finish the scene.’ And
winning turns on Frasier and Samantha
very successful. Did you put the ball
she said, ‘Really?’ I said, ‘No. What, are
she just was like, ‘No, just start, just
Who? to her nominated guest role in
through the hoop or not? That’s got
you crazy?’ I almost didn’t tell her that
go ahead, just start.’ I was so furious. I
Harry’s Law. But then, after playing
to be very gratifying because pretty
story. I thought, Oh God, Jean, that’s
was so angry. And that was her lesson
crime matriarch Floyd Gerhardt in
much, if you are the best you’re going
just too mean. But I thought if she
in teaching me how to use what I was
Fargo, came a strange, fallow period.
to end up at the top of the heap.”
could stand it she’d survive.”
feeling in the scene. Because she said,
were my first choice. And I told the
Smart has always survived; has always been an actor all her life. No
‘You guys were never better.’” Despite that learning experience,
“Fargo was sort of a game-changer
She also believes there’s a general
in one sense,” she says. “The reviews
disrespect for actors and their art; a
were incredible; the ratings were
way that “infantilizes” actors. “Like
waiting tables, no side gigs, just acting.
Smart largely eschews method acting.
incredible. People just loved the show.
we’re all these overpaid babies [say-
Beginning in the theater, she got role
“I don’t think you necessarily have to
I got personal accolades. I won the
ing] ‘Look at me, look at me!’”
after role. “It sounds horrible to say
experience something to be able to
Critics’ Choice Award and then silence.
that to other actors,” she says. “Not
play it as an actor. I mean, the play
Silence. And I hate to say this, but I
ant instance of this some years ago at
that I was making a great living for a
that started my career in New York
think part of it was because of the way
the Emmys when, as a nominee, she
lot of years in the theater, I was just
City was a play with eight gay female
I looked on the show. I think it was sort
was sent what she calls “the usual
8
D E A D L I N E .C O M / AWA R D S L I N E
She recalls a particularly unpleas-
JAK E G I LES N E T T ER / HBO M AX
very impressed with her.”
could play this character if I had never
NO MORE BETS As Deborah Vance, Smart embodies the lead she’s long deserved.
kind of letter” with details of how long
character, using a full-body acting
when he was feeling very defensive in
through every obstacle and glass
winners’ speeches can be and so on.
technique she puts down to her
meetings.”
ceiling as an actress who began
Only this time there was an added
theatrical background. “I sometimes thought about my
Smart was so physically committed
her screen career in 1979, there’s a par-
to the role she fell during shooting and
ticular scene in Hacks so skin-prickling, it gives one pause.
so people must have really been
mom, because she lived to be 94, and
snapped a rib so badly she required
offended. They said, ‘Oh, by the way, if
as you get older, the shoulders kind
five days in hospital. She recalls the
your name is announced and you win
of roll forward, you know? There’s
paramedic who put her in the ambu-
making her life hard, and Deborah
and other people around you in the
obviously a harder time getting up off
lance was disappointed he’d failed to
retorts, “You don’t know what hard
audience jump up to congratulate you
the couch than you used to have. It’s
recognize Kate Winslet and mistook
is. You got plucked off the internet at
or shake your hand or give you a hug,
like the opposite of method acting—
her for Smart’s real-life daughter—an
what? 20? You just got lucky… ‘Good’
ignore them because they’re just trying
the idea of working from the outside
understandable error, since, even now,
is the minimum, ‘good’ is the baseline.
to get their face on camera.’ I thought
in. When you wear certain kinds of
Winslet refers to Smart as ‘Mummy’.
You have to be so much more than
that was so offensive and it showed
clothing, just as we do in real life, it
Next up, Smart has “hopefully
good. And even if you’re great and
me how people think of actors.”
makes us feel differently. And we move
Season 2 of Hacks” she says, although
lucky, you still have to work really fuck-
After the post-Fargo silence, a new
Ava complains that Deborah is
differently. We feel differently about
renewal is yet to be confirmed. “I
ing hard. And even that is not enough.
era emerged. The Daily Beast called it
ourselves. And so, I mean, I love my
mean, HBO likes the show, the audi-
You have to scratch and claw and it
the ‘Jean Smartaissance’—at almost
wardrobe and the costume designer
ence likes the show, the critics like the
never fucking ends. And it doesn’t get
70, Smart is everywhere. Emmy-
was so thrilled because I said to her,
show, so I’m not sure what else would
better. It just gets harder.”
nominated in 2020 for her Watchmen
‘I want a little padding around the
come into play there.” And then there’s
role, and now with these two latest
hips and the butt. That’s how I just
her first ever go-round at producing,
method acting, but with her 120-plus
Emmy-buzzed HBO shows.
see her in my head.’ And so, between
on the film, with the working title of
screen credits, and this powerful
that and the polyester pants and
Miss Macy, based on an NPR podcast,
lead role coming to her only now, she
a stunning gear switch—changing
sweater vests and the bad hair, it just
in which she’ll also play the titular role.
might know a little something about
her movement and physicality to
felt right. Sometimes I would give her
become the tough, weathered mother
high, crossed arms, the way Trump did
In Mare of Easttown, she performs
10
D E A D L I N E .C O M / AWA R D S L I N E
While Smart cracks jokes and doesn’t dwell on how she busted
Smart may not be especially into
Deborah’s speech. Long may the Smartaissance continue. ★
JAK E G I LES N E T T ER / HBO M AX
comment. “They never said this again,
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CHARTED TERRITORY At press time, here is how Gold Derby’s experts ranked the Emmy chances in the Best Comedy Series Actor and Best Comedy Series Actress races. Get up-to-date rankings and make your own predictions at GoldDerby.com
Nailed It! Host Nicole Byer on keeping the competition safe and silly during COVID-19 NAILED IT! IS ALL ABOUT SEEING THE FUN IN FAILURE AND, as host of the show, Nicole Byer brings the excitement and levity needed for this Netflix competition series. “It’s nice when people can poke fun at themselves,” Byer says, “and find the humor in something that they tried so hard to make.” Byer and French pastry chef Jacques Torres host this reality competition baking series inspired by the internet trend of people trying and failing to make elaborate cakes. This season, dubbed Nailed It! Double Trouble, has twice the bakers, as the contestants are now in teams of two, which Byer says led to some great pairings. “We had two drag Queens, Lagoona Bloo and Selma Nilla, and they were so fun and effortless to talk to,” she says. “I had a real blast shooting with them.” Unfortunately, that doesn’t mean the end result was any better. “You know, you’d think that things would get done quicker or better or faster,” she says, “but none of that happened. Having someone extra just made it, I think, more fun and silly.” Due to COVID-19 restrictions, Double Trouble had to be distanced, but that didn’t lessen the fun and chaos. “You try to just have as much fun as you can safely,” Byer says. “I think it’s nice that you have your own little bubble now, but I’d love for things to go back to normal.” —Ryan Fleming
AWKWARD NOSTALGIA How production designer Grace Alie turned back the clock to the early 2000s for PEN15
ODDS
1
Jason Sudeikis Ted Lasso
10/3
2
Michael Douglas The Kominsky Method
4/1
3
Anthony Anderson Black-ish
11/2
4
Ted Danson Mr. Mayor
13/2
5
Kenan Thompson Kenan
13/2
COMEDY SERIES ACTRESSES
ODDS
1
Kaley Cuoco The Flight Attendant
18/5
2
Jean Smart Hacks
5/1
3
Tracee Ellis Ross Black-ish
11/2
4
Allison Janney Mom
7/1
5
Jane Levy Zoey’s Extraordinary Playlist
8/1
season, Alie was able to build replicas of the sets on a stage. “Recreating hardwood floor that doesn’t exist anymore was a fun challenge,” she says. Revisting the most awkward time in any person’s life may feel
As production designer of the Hulu series
cringe comedy series on Hulu, where they
uncomfortable, but Alie found comfort
PEN15, Grace Alie didn’t need to go far
play 13-year-old versions of themselves
in working on a show where characters
for research and inspiration. “A lot of it
in 7th grade in the early 2000s, alongside
navigate the awkwardness of middle
came from my memory,” she says, “and
actual 13-year-old actors. “The biggest
school. “It feels very painful and cringy,
most of my team and crew are around
challenge for Season 1 was the budget,”
but it’s so therapeutic to watch and to
the same age as well.” Maya Erskine and
Alie says. “We had to be really resourceful
relive some of that stuff and know that it’s
Anna Konkle created and star in this
and crafty.” After the success of the first
in the past.” —Ryan Fleming
12
D E A D L I N E .C O M / AWA R D S L I N E
TEEN TORMENT Anna Konkle and Maya Erskine star as 13-year-old Anna Kone and Maya Ishii-Peters in PEN15 on Hulu..
N E T FL IX / NI CO LE BYE R /L ARA SO LA N S K I/ HU LU
Double The Trouble
COMEDY SERIES ACTORS
Topher Grace
As he marks a return to sitcoms in Home Economics, the That ’70s Show star shares his life lessons BY JOE UTICHI
TOPHER GRACE HAS HAD A CHARMED FEW YEARS,
with roles in BlacKkKlansman, The Hot Zone and Black Mirror under his belt. And he returns to screens this season with Home Economics, about a group of adult siblings dealing with very different financial situations. It’s his first sitcom lead since breaking through with That ’70s Show more than 20 years ago. Here, he muses on his career memories and recalls some film and TV favorites.
THE PART I ALWAYS WANTED I don’t have a lot of those, but I did try out for Anakin Skywalker in Attack of the Clones. At the time, someone had seen me in a school play, and I’d only been cast in That ’70s Show, and I thought, Oh my god, this is obviously meant to be. I guess I’m less sad I didn’t get that now [laughs]. But I think I’d still have taken it, because it would have been fun. I was there basically because my haircut looked like Jake Lloyd’s, I think. And I’d still love to be in a Star Wars movie someday, but I can’t imagine I’m the right guy for them. I guess I’ll have to make do with riding the ride at Disneyland.
MY FIRST FILM LESSON My mom would only let me watch black and white movies. I wasn’t allowed to watch television as a kid. At the time, I was mad at her, because everyone was talking about whatever happened on The Wonder Years. But I look back now and think that was great. She also took us to MGM Studios in Orlando, which is a fictional mini version of Hollywood. I thought, Could it be this wonderful? When I was cast on That ’70s Show straight out of high school, the set was built so they could close off the whole house, because they wanted to do a long tracking shot in the opening, and it was kind of like that fictional Hollywood experience brought to life. The opposite happened when I did my first movie, Traffic, because Steven Soderbergh comes from documentaries. There wasn’t one light on that film—he used available light—and I’d never shot anything outdoors before. So here I was in dicey parts of Cincinnati, and that was the lesson: sometimes filmmaking is artifice and sometimes it’s reality, and there’s no wrong way to do it.
14
D E A D L I N E .C O M / AWA R D S L I N E
MY TOUGHEST ROLE Playing David Duke in BlacKkKlansman wasn’t as hard as doing the research for David Duke, which was just terrible. I read his autobiography, which is basically like his Mein Kampf, and I watched a lot of footage. Watching and reading these things, you feel complicit just by engaging with it. Spike Lee actually maintains a fun set for how heavy the material is, but the research of those two months prior was heavy, and my wife, Ashley, was very kind to just let me be in a funk. Charlottesville happened at that time also, so it was very present in our lives. But when I eventually saw how Spike brought the film together, and how powerfully he said what he was saying, I was so proud to have been a part of it. > Continued on p. 14.
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On My Screen:
THE MASTERS I’VE STUDIED Nobody ever takes you aside and says, “Here’s how to wear a costume,” or whatever. But whenever you have a chance to work with great actors at the top of their game you learn by osmosis. Watching Brad Pitt, or Cate Blanchett or Julia Roberts do their thing. I had to take dance lessons with Julia Roberts on Mona Lisa Smile, and just seeing how she handled herself was a lesson for an idiot like me who kept stepping on her feet. The one I really remember was on Traffic, and I was nervous because Soderbergh isn’t the sort of director who tells you what he wants you to do. On maybe the second day of shooting I said, “Should I be doing anything differently?” And he went, “Oh, I don’t know,” and just kind of walked away. Then, one day, he did have a note for me. I must have been really off-base with something, and he made his way toward me as I was standing with Michael Douglas. He was the first big star I’d ever worked with. As Steven came up, Michael just kind of whistled and walked away. It was a while before I realised how gracious that was, because he was such a consummate professional that he knew the moment could be embarrassing for me. So, he stepped away and let me have my time.
THE MOST FUN I’VE HAD ON SET I’m not just saying this: it is truly while doing Home Economics. You can tell, I think, too. Acting is faking it—you should be able to have chemistry with people—but I’ve done things where it just kind of doesn’t come. I remember driving to set on our first day and thinking, Oh man, who knows? But maybe 48 hours later, I was overconfident. Everyone’s individually talented, which I knew going in, but then we all sort of clicked instantly. The last day of shooting Season 1 was like the last day of camp. When you feel comfortable with people like that in comedy, it’s just an elixir. When we got renewed, I’m telling you, you’ve never seen five adults more excited.
MY MOST TORTURED CO-STAR I’ll always be sorry to Kurtwood Smith and Debra Jo Rupp, who played the parents on That ’70s Show. That was literally my first audition, Wilmer [Valderrama] barely spoke English, Laura [Prepon] and Ashton [Kutcher] had never acted, they were models. Now that I have a bunch of years on me, I can see how brave it was for them to choose these kids who had zero experience. It was brave, and kind of smart because we had the time to really learn, and when we learned, we were fresh and ready to learn. The only people who got caught in the middle of that were these wonderful professionals playing our parents. Every time I see them now I apologize, not for anything in particular, just because I was so green.
THE CHARACTER THAT’S MOST LIKE ME I was very similar to Eric Forman when we were doing That ’70s Show, obviously. And I’m a very different person now, but I think I’m very similar to Tom Hayward in Home Economics. He has twins—I don’t, but we had a second baby during the pandemic—and it was like, is this even acting? I’d be home changing diapers, and then I’d clock in at work and they’d hand me two diapers. I think whenever you’re doing a show like this, where you’re working for so many months out of a year, you can’t help there being crossover with your real life. You steal from it.
MY GUILTY PLEASURE My wife is really into The Bachelor, and she got me into it. Now, when she’s out of town, I’m like, “Well, I’ll just watch it so I can keep up with what you’re watching.” But I’m on an ABC show myself now, so I think I can admit it: I love it. MY MOST QUOTED ROLE Oh, it’s probably people calling me a dumbass from That ’70s Show. It’s not the greatest thing to have yelled at you on the street. But I guess it could be worse. WHO’D PLAY ME IN MY BIOPIC Well, I think everyone would agree it should be Harry Styles. I mean, I don’t even have to explain why, it’s so obvious. Everyone knows, why even go into it?
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KARAOKE PLAYLIST I love karaoke. I’m not saying I’m good at it, but I like doing it. But if I’m in a competitive karaoke situation, which breaks out sometimes, especially with me around, then my go-to is “A Whole New World” from Aladdin. I pull up my wife to duet with me. The trick with it is to point out all the cities and things you’re seeing from the magic carpet. Really sell the emotion. “Oh look, there are the pyramids! There’s the Great Wall!” It gets a big crowd.
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THE MOVIES THAT MAKE ME CRY I’m not a big crier. I went to boarding school at a young age, so you kind of learn not to cry. But I saw Inside Out with my wife on one of our early dates, and that Bing Bong part… Oh man, I was weeping. And when you hold it in a lot, let me tell you, when it goes, it really goes. The faucet turns all the way on. Pixar knows how to get you.
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TRUE STORY Clockwise from left: Demi Lovato in her docuseries Demi Lovato: Dancing with the Devil; Paris Hilton in This Is Paris, and Wendy Williams in Wendy Williams: What a Mess!
AN INFLUX OF CONFESSIONAL-STYLE PROJECTS FORMS A NEW FRONTIER IN DOCUMENTARIES BY MATTHEW CAREY
host shares deeply personal stories
woman who languidly dispensed the trademark phrase, “That’s hot.” “I created this brand and this
of past drug use, plastic surgery,
persona and this character, and
and eating disorders. Tears flow as
I’ve been stuck with her ever since,”
Williams recounts being sexually
she admits in the film directed by
assaulted in an incident she describes
Alexandra Dean. “I don’t even know
as date rape.
who I am sometimes. I’m always kind
For the famous women at the
health issues, her evolving sense of
“I never told anybody,” she reveals.
of putting on this facade, like happy,
heart of some of the year’s most
her sexuality, and, shockingly, being
Williams sobs over feeling
perfect life.”
compelling documentaries, there
raped by her drug dealer.
are no secrets. They reveal intimate
“The hardest thing to talk about
details of past trauma and personal
for me was the sexual assault. That
struggles with startling transparency.
was something that I had never
“That was one thing that I was
betrayed by her husband after discov-
The truth was something darker.
ering he had cheated on her for years
The film intimates Hilton created her
and fathered a baby with his mistress.
insouciant character as a response
“Personally, it was very, very
to trauma she suffered while attend-
shared with the world before,” Lovato
freeing and cleansing to tell my story,”
ing a ‘tough love’ boarding school in
very good at,” Demi Lovato confides
says. “The world knew that I had
Williams says. “And there’s not a bit of
Utah; her parents shuttled her there
directly to camera in her docuseries
overdosed—they didn’t know on
the story that was a lie.”
in alarm at her becoming a much-
Demi Lovato: Dancing with the Devil.
what… But when it came to the third
“Hiding the fact that I was addicted
episode, I talked about the sexual
emerging type of nonfiction—the
to crack and heroin.”
assault. The healing that that did
confessional documentary.
Revelations from Lovato cascade
inside of me was so profound and I’m
These new films point to an
In This Is Paris from YouTube Origi-
gossiped-about and photographed party girl in New York. “I was physically, emotionally and psychologically, verbally abused,
throughout the four-part YouTube
so glad I had that opportunity to do
nals, Paris Hilton deliberately breaks
daily” at the school, she shares. “It
Originals series: dealing with bulimia
that. It was really difficult though, I’ll
free of her image as a mondaine
was just so traumatic and something I
and other eating disorders, mental
be honest.”
without a care in the world, the young
just never even wanted to think about
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The Real World
In Lifetime’s documentary Wendy Williams: What a Mess! the talk show
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LET IT OUT Left: Pink with her family in Pink: All I Know So Far. Right: Billie Eilish in Billie Eilish: The World’s a Little Blurry
again, or talk about or tell anyone. So,
personal lives requires an embrace of
an entire movement of survivors
and making myself bleed because I
I had no idea that I was ever going to
vulnerability. But along with thera-
coming out and telling their story
thought I deserved it.”
reveal this part of my life.”
peutic value, it gives public figures the
and people writing me and leaving
In the film directed by R.J.
chance to shape their own narrative.
me messages saying, ‘Thank you so
Cutler, Eilish shares her journals
documentary seems to have had a
Social media has likewise helped
much. No one has ever believed me.
which contain ominous drawings, like
genuinely therapeutic effect.
celebrities achieve that end, but
I’m finally being believed.’”
images out of a Tim Burton movie.
“I had no idea of just the power
the confessional documentary goes
The Apple TV+ documentary
of being honest and truthful, what it
further. And there is another benefit
Billie Eilish: The World’s a Little Blurry
she has written, with bleak lines
would do and just how many people
to such truth-telling: the opportunity
doesn’t quite fall into the confes-
such as these: “An intense feeling of
could relate to my story,” Hilton
to help those who see the films.
sional documentary mold, however.
the absolute end… I am a void. The
There isn’t necessarily trauma at the
epitome of nothing.”
observes, adding, “I feel like people
“I knew that someone out there
The audience is given a look at poetry
finally understand and respect me
needed to hear what I had to say
very center of it. Yet, it too reaches
and I’m just so grateful for this film...
in my story,” Lovato says, “so that
a remarkable level of intimacy, never
drawing in that notebook,” Cutler
It’s been the most healing experience
it could help prevent them from
more so than when the teenage
recalls. “There was that notebook
of my life.”
possibly going down the same road
singer-songwriter is discussing a
connecting her to her younger self,
that I did.”
depressive side to her personality. At
who was cutting and who had suicidal
one point she talks of harming herself
ideation and a lot of challenges that a
when she was 14 or 15.
lot of young people face. And yes, this
Lovato uses similar wording about her documentary series, directed by Michael D. Ratner. “It was a healing experience for
“I’ve been reached out to by so many other survivors who have been through the same thing as me,” Hilton
“I had razors hidden in places and I
“The day I met her, she was
is one of the great things that Billie
me,” she says, “that I’m so grateful
comments of people who, like her,
had band-aids hidden in a little corner
has contributed as a public figure, the
that I got to do with Michael.”
have endured such abuse at boot
of my room,” Eilish reveals. “I was liter-
normalization of the lack of shame
camp-style schools. “It’s just started
ally locking myself in the bathroom
around these issues, the fact that
Sharing sensitive details of their
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Taking part in a confessional
“A modern twist on arranged marriage.
IT IS CHANGING REALITY TV.” NEW YORK POST
FOR
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REAL WOMEN Left: Britney Spears, in Framing Britney Spears. Below: Amy Schumer in Expecting Amy.
these are things that young people
are reluctant to allow their kids to be
gravidarum, a condition that pro-
World’s a Little Blurry, director R.J.
struggle with, that all people struggle
filmed, but Pink’s young daughter and
duces extreme nausea and vomiting.
Cutler notes he had final cut, but he
with, that depression is not some-
son appear throughout the docu-
thing to be ashamed of, that these
mentary, traveling the world with their
throwing up all day,” she says in one
things can be discussed, and they can
mom during her “Beautiful Trauma”
of her many unvarnished moments.
be discussed openly, and that art can
tour. In voiceover, Pink ponders how
“I resent how much women have
not to the filmmaker,” Cutler insists.
help us find our way through them.
her children’s perception of her may
to suck it the fuck up and act like
“It’s this year in Billie’s life. Absolutely,
We see that in this film.”
change with time.
everything’s fine.”
I respect that the story is hers. I want
“I’m their mom, I’m their friend,
Schumer is an executive producer
sees the finished film as a collaboration between Eilish and himself. “The story belongs to the subject,
to tell it as truthfully as possible… But
to storytelling sets a new standard
but one day they’re going to see
on her series. Wendy Williams and
what we are is engaged in a relation-
for what audiences can expect from
through all of it,” she muses. “They’re
Pink occupy the same roles on
ship [between director and subject].
celebrity-oriented documentaries.
going to see the act, they’re going to
their documentaries. Paris Hilton is
And it’s a relationship based on trust.
It isn’t the conscious image-making
see through the strength and they’re
credited as a producer on her film.
Our goal is for Billie to feel as com-
of quasi-unscripted reality TV soaps
going to find the truth underneath, I
That suggests a degree of authorship
fortable being herself with us as she
like Keeping Up with the Kardashians,
hope. And they’re going to discover
on the projects that wasn’t present in
is with anybody with whom she’s fully
instead it’s something more truly
little Alecia who’s still hiding in here,
the case of another Emmy-contend-
comfortable being herself. Because
authentic and real.
who’s still learning how to heal.”
ing documentary about a pop star,
that’s what we want to film—Billie
Framing Britney Spears. The “Toxic”
being herself.”
Pop singer Pink (real name Alecia
Comedian Amy Schumer takes
Moore) delivers on that promise with
sharing to new levels in her HBO
singer did not participate in that film,
her Amazon Studios documentary
Max docuseries Expecting Amy,
which sets it apart from other confes-
oneself, with all the messiness that
Pink: All I Know So Far, another
about her difficult pregnancy and
sional documentaries.
can entail, is what this few form of
Emmy-contending film. Most stars
resulting struggle with hyperemesis
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In the case of Billie Eilish: The
Being entirely and honestly
documentary is all about. ★
FX / H BO M AX
This no-holds-barred approach
“I just got to Chicago and I’ve been
F O R YO U R E M MY® C O N S I D E R AT I O N
“ENGROSSING AND EXTRAORDINARILY INVOLVING.” THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
“THE DIRECTORS’ COMMITMENT TO LETTING THEIR STORIES UNFOLD NATURALLY
LENDS THE SERIES SUCH RARE AUTHENTICITY.” TIME
++++”
“
NEWSDAY
++++”
“
THE TELEGRAPH
“EMOTIONALLY NOURISHING. AN EARNEST AND WELL-MEANING EFFORT ON ALL LEVELS.” THE HOLLYWOOD REPORTER
FYC.NETFLIX.COM
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The landscape of late-night television has stayed largely consistent for 60 years. Enter Desus & Mero, and their protégée Ziwe, who have ripped up the rulebook and rewritten late-night and sketch comedy in a fresh, invigorating way for a generation that had been switching off. Peter White meets all three to find out how they did it. PHOTOGRAPHY BY Andrew Zaeh
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ate-night television hasn’t changed a great deal since Johnny Carson took over The Tonight Show nearly 60 years ago. There’s been the odd exception, such as Arsenio Hall’s syndicated show finding a young audience and bringing Bill Clinton’s saxophone licks to the country, or Joan Rivers briefly interloping on Fox. However, it’s largely been the preserve of middle-aged white men, wearing suits, joking about the events of the day with a few celebrity guests and sketches thrown in. Enter Desus & Mero, and more recently, their protégée Ziwe. Desus & Mero, otherwise known as Desus Nice and The Kid Mero (or Daniel Baker and Joel Martinez), have brought a louder, more youthskewing, social media-friendly take to the genre, a gonzo, weedsmoking sensibility with fresh kicks. First breaking through via online brand Complex and their Bodega Boys podcast, before scoring a series on Viceland, which ran for over 300 episodes on the hipster network between 2016 and 2018, their profile has risen exponentially over the last couple of years thanks to their eponymous Showtime series, which is now in its third season. The momentum has been growing, and even in the last twelve months they’ve been kicking on, scoring interviews with the likes of Joe Biden, before he became President; Kamala Harris, two months before the election; Dr. Anthony Fauci, two weeks into the COVID-19 pandemic; and most famously, President Barack Obama, preferring to riff about basketball rather than promote his book. Then, there’s Ziwe, otherwise known as Ziwe Fumudoh, who got one of her big breaks as a writer on Desus & Mero, before breaking the internet last summer with her Instagram Live series Baited, where she teased stars such as Alyssa Milano and Rose McGowan into answering tricky questions about race. This led to her own six-part series, also on Showtime, which launched in May. Together, the trio are dragging late-night comedy into the 21st Century and appear to be having some fun with it.
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esus & Mero have been tagged as new kids on the block, and while they haven’t been on air as long as Stephen Colbert or Jimmy Fallon, they have already racked up nearly 500 episodes of television as well as some 240 episodes of their podcast. Mero says that while things have been moving quickly for the pair recently, it hasn’t exactly been a “quick ascent to stardom”, as they’ve been “grinding for close to a decade”. Desus adds that it feels like the show has “forward momentum”. When the show launched in February 2019, they became Showtime’s first ever late-night hosts, and last July, ViacomCBS execs gave them a “huge vote of confidence” by moving their show from Monday night to Sunday night, in addition to their existing Thursday night episode. “Late-night is so established and formulaic, and here we come with a deconstructed late-night show, and it’s something that a new generation is used to, similar to TikTok, in little chunks,” Desus says. “We’re spinning late-night on its axis, and people really like that. Shout out to Jimmy Fallon or Trevor Noah, but what they do is different; our show is structured differently to theirs. We’re not saying there’s anything wrong with what they’re doing, we just took the late-night avenue and made it our own and that’s what people appreciate.” Mero adds that comparing their show to Last Week Tonight or The Daily Show is like comparing “apples and oranges”. They embrace a chaos that many other shows hide. “We’re not turning the camera off if Desus is getting his makeup touched up,” says Mero. “It shouldn’t feel like you’re watching a show, it should feel like you’re part of a show and me and Mero are in your living room.” Authenticity is the key to their momentum; the pair are essentially the same gregarious, sometimes obnoxious, Twitter-baiting, New Yorkers that they’ve been since they first
met online a decade ago, except a little more grown up. Simply, it’s not a shtick. “It would be exhausting to be a persona for ten years. We’re not classically trained comedians or actors, we’re trained by the New York City public school system. That’s where we learned comedy. Essentially, this is us all the time,” says Mero. Desus, who jokes that this can be somewhat challenging for those who work with them, adds, “It’s like any friendship or relationship, people grow. When we’re together in the room it feels the same as it always did, it’s the same energy. People think we need to become Desus & Mero before the show… but if this was a job, it would be draining to do.” The Viceland show was essentially the pair of them in the Vice offices chatting and interviewing guests, often in the middle of them, while the Showtime series has afforded them a slightly higher budget, meaning that they can do field pieces and sketches. “It’s scary to a point, because you might make a joke that we should do an interview on top of Mount Everest and then the next day you get a PDF with your flights to Everest,” says Desus. One recent example of this was an interview with Yo-Yo Ma in Harvard Square, Cambridge, Massachusetts, where the celebrated cellist took the pair to a barbershop. They evidently enjoy getting out into the real world, particularly after having spent more than a year making the show in their own homes. Desus says that it’s these types of moments that mean they’re unlikely to make more than two episodes a week. “You can’t do that if you’re doing the show four days a week,” he says. “You don’t realize how hard it is to make television until you make television. It’s not a burnout thing, it’s about making the best show we can.” Making the best show they can was more of a challenge over the last 14 months, but given that a large part of the appeal of the show is watching the pair banter, Desus &
FRESH TAKE
Top to bottom: Desus Nice and The Kid Mero with Kenan Thompson; Yo-Yo Ma shows the guys how it’s done.
PEOPLE THINK WE NEED TO B E C O M E D E S U S & M ER O B EFO R E T H E S H OW, B U T I F T H I S WA S A J O B , IT WO U LD B E D R AI N I N G TO D O . —DESUS & MERO D E A D L I N E .C O M / AWA R D S L I N E
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Mero was one of the few remotely-produced shows to feel more relevant than ever during the pandemic. Arguably, this has increased their chances of getting nominated for an Emmy in the latenight category. There were whispers last year that they might get nominated, but it feels like if they’re ever going to get on the list, it’s this year—a year in which they’ve also been given an outside chance of hosting the Emmys, given their ViacomCBS connections. But they face tough competition from entrenched nominees such as Last Week Tonight with John Oliver, which has won five years in a row; The Daily Show with Trevor Noah; Full Frontal with Samantha Bee; Jimmy Kimmel Live; and The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. There’s also competition from the likes of Late Night with Seth Meyers, and the Television Academy voters have had a soft spot for The Late Late Show’s James Corden over the years. Last year, Desus said the snub put the show in “Susan Lucci territory”, and the pair were somewhat ambivalent about missing out. Now, they are clearly aware of what it would mean for the “whole squad”. Desus says, “It’s not about me, it’s about the show and the recognition that comes with working on an Emmy-nominated show. It feels different now.” One of the ways things may have changed now is in how they’ve cemented the show to be a key spot for politicians and other establishment figures. In December, they scored an in-person sit-down with President Barack Obama. While 44 is a noted fan of late-night, and has regularly and recently appeared on the likes of The Late Show, The Tonight Show, Jimmy Kimmel Live, and The Late Late Show, his appearance on Desus & Mero felt different. Firstly, while he was ostensibly there to promote his book, A Promised Land, it appeared Obama was more interested in roasting the pair’s New York Knicks or bringing up the controversy around wearing that tan suit, something that Mero said made him look like the “ill-est Remax realty salesman in Carbondale, Michigan”. “I don’t want to say life-changing because that’s very hyperbolic, but to an extent it was,” says Mero. “We had an inkling that he was into us and was a fan but that solidified it.” Obama was evidently aware of the pair, seemingly more than any briefing notes might have indicated. “I’ve known people who work in his administration and he is familiar with us,” adds Desus. “The stuff he brought up wasn’t necessarily on our Wikipedia page. It didn’t feel like we were talking to a former
President, it felt like we were talking to our cool uncle Barry.” Prior to Obama’s appearance, Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the U.S. National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), who was essentially in charge of the country’s response to the pandemic, made headlines with one of his first late-night interviews at the end of March 2020. Mero says it was clear that Fauci wanted to get his message out to people who didn’t necessarily watch the news every night or who were slightly less trusting of politicians. “The pandemic was crushing the brown and Black communities, so you needed this information, and if it’s your guys delivering the news, I feel it’s a little more palatable and people will take it a little more seriously. It’s like taking sugar with the medicine.” Desus adds that Dr. Fauci’s appearance was also when he was being sidelined by President Trump. “You can have on a million comedians, but if there’s a pandemic and you can get the word out there and help, you’ve got to do that.” Desus & Mero used to shoot with a live audience at the CBS Studio in New York. However, before the pandemic, the pair actually bought their own facility—the old Al Jazeera studio, complete with bulletproof glass. Desus says they’ll go back there fully when they can, and it will mean less of a crunch on production. “The way we work, sometimes we go for hours and go on rants and you don’t want to cut the camera because you’ve got to load in the next show,” he says. “The beauty of it means that we don’t have to break down the set, it’s always there, so that means you can do digital shoots or change things. It’s our space and we can do whatever we want there. It’s our petri dish so we can try things out and when you remove the time stipulation, that allows more creativity to work.” The duo are evidently keen on working on other projects, from acting to writing and producing, or, as Mero says, having a “farm system” where they can bring in young talent to work with. They also recently made the New York Times bestseller list with their life-advice book God-Level Knowledge Darts: Life Lessons from the Bronx, dropped a collaboration with boot company Timberland, and an ice cream deal with OddFellows. Their ice cream range, which was done for charity, has some unusual flavors such as a bacon, egg and cheese tub. This essentially sums up their show. As Desus says, “It’s a weird flavor that you might not be ready for, but once you make the effort and try it, you’re going to love it.”
ON THE SCENE
Top to bottom: With NFL player Julian Edelman in the studio; taking the show out and about; and getting in close with cellist legend Yo-Yo Ma.
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I N T E N T I O N A L LY, I WA N T E D TO S TA N D I N CONTR AST TO T H E J IM MYS AN D THE JOHNS O F L AT E - N I G H T. —Z IWE
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iwe kicked off her eponymous Showtime series in May by asking Fran Lebowitz whether she hates slow walkers or racism more. And it’s a question that perfectly sums up the emerging comedian. Her eponymous show, Ziwe, lives in the same universe that birthed The Colbert Report and Da Ali G Show; a series with an unusual character picking at the absurdity of politics, culture and society through the lens of comedy. It’s no surprise then that Ziwe got her start after signing up to the Chris Rock Internship at Comedy Central, a gig that helped her get a joke on Stephen Colbert’s right-wing parody series. “I interned there for a week and I was such a chatty intern that I got a joke on the show,” she says. “I was introduced to The Colbert Report when I was 14 in high school and I remember thinking that he’s so rude and you can say anything if it’s a joke.” She says that her wish was for her show to be the daytime talk show version of that senario. “I pull from CBS This Morning and The Oprah Winfrey Show and even a little bit of Ellen. You can really see that I’m satirizing the media at large because I’m so inspired by those shows.” There’s a dichotomy between episodes and guests, where one week, Ziwe is asking Gloria Steinem about white feminism and the next interviewing Rachel Lindsay, who appeared on The Bachelorette, and Eboni K. Williams, who stars in The Real Housewives of New York, before getting into the weeds with New York mayoral candidate Andrew Yang the following week. She calls the character hyperbolic. “It’s ridiculous to ask someone like Fran Lebowitz, who was friends with Toni Morrison, what is worse, slow walkers or racism. That’s a ridiculous question, but in that absurdity comes honesty because she’s thrown off guard and I don’t know if she’s going to lean into that question. I am constantly trying to combine high and low. You talk to Gloria Steinem one week and then you talk to a bachelorette the next, but the bachelorette
ZIWE is also a lawyer and her dad is a federal judge. Things are not as they seem.” Ziwe was a writer for The Rundown with Robin Thede and, as mentioned, Desus & Mero, but she essentially got her own show after Baited became the viral sensation of the summer, putting people such as Alison Roman and Caroline Calloway on the spot with uncomfortable (for them) questions about race. “The show is an amalgamation of the creative that I’ve been doing for the last five to ten years,” she says now. “[My] Instagram Live show blew up and all of a sudden I was the must-see television show on Instagram. With that in mind, I was able to sell a television show.” Showtime took the bait and, after securing the order, she partnered with A24, the hip production and distribution company behind films such as Uncut Gems, Minari and Midsommar. This, she says, was because of the company’s reputation with talent and its interest in aesthetic. The show is hyper-stylized with Ziwe wearing leather knee-high boots and performing in music video-style sketches. “The set feels like Barbie’s dream house and I have a strong POV,” she says. “Intentionally, I wanted to stand in contrast with the Jimmys and the Johns of late-night.” The guests are briefed as to who Ziwe is and that she’s playing a character, in that sense more Colbert than Sacha Baron Cohen. But the character does allow her to have conversations that may be tougher to have without a satirical mask on. Having said that, there’s a strange authenticity behind these absurd interactions. “I am uncomfortable all the time talking about race. Since I was a kid people have been talking to me about race. I was in the mall and people are talking to me about the Black friends they have, and I thought, Who cares? Why are you bringing this up? All of these micro-scenarios that existed all of my life, I thought, What if there was a camera to see how stupid it was, how absurd these conversations were?” It’s about accountability, rather than cancel culture, she says. “We’re not trying to
IN THE PINK
Ziwe in action on the set of her show.
cancel anybody or ruin anybody’s career. We lead with kindness with the hope of making funny, thoughtful comedy.” Ziwe’s six-episode series is being put forward in this year’s Emmys as a variety show, a smart move that will see it go up against the likes of SNL and A Black Lady Sketch Show for a nomination, rather than the plethora of late-night shows. “This is a variety show in the truest sense of the word, because there’s music, guests, field pieces, sketches and fake commercials. I am just making important work that is hopefully funny, so the show is what you interpret, it fits into several genres. It’s stretching the definition of what comedy means,” she adds. Next up, she hopes that the premium network will pick up more episodes and she is already planning her roster of guests. “Is there a season where I interview Hillary Clinton and Kim Kardashian or talk to the Obamas? What’s nice about the show is that I can talk to anyone, I can talk to Duck Dynasty or the President of Morehouse. I just look forward to meeting new people and having more compelling, interesting conversations and constantly pushing the boundaries,” she says. But she’s not all that interested in people knowing too much about her, hoping that she can remain somewhat of an enigma, more Baron Cohen than Colbert in that sense. “I’d like it if you knew nothing about me. Who am I? Why do you care? I want to give people the tools to laugh and to think and give everything a critical eye, including myself. Why is my favorite ice cream important?” D E A D L I N E .C O M / AWA R D S L I N E
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CHAMELEON
The comedienne in her many guises on Ziwe.
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D E A D L I N E .C O M / AWA R D S L I N E
proud of who I am, to push the boundaries of jokes and value my culture. Working for them and seeing them practice that, as well as being kind, benevolent employers, was a privilege and I think my show reflects that spontaneity. I don’t think I could have got to that place emotionally if I had not seen them when I was younger and then worked for them for two years.” Desus & Mero are similarly complimentary of their young protégée. Mero says it was evident when she interviewed for the writing job. “It was obvious she could write and perform and carry a show on her own. We knew that was going to be her next step. She was going to write the shit out the park in the writers’ room and then ascend to the Ziwe show, and we love it for her.” Ziwe scoring her own show was like watching “your kid graduate” adds Desus. “She’s our home girl, we’re super proud of her and love her show. The fact that she’s also on Showtime is great because it’d be really bad if she was on another network and then we’d be rivals.” Joking aside, Desus says he was pleased that the network had picked up her show, highlighting its increasing inclusion. “Before we got to Showtime, people were saying it was a very white network, there wasn’t a lot of diversity, but shout out to them for being more accepting and open. If you look at the range of shows now with The Chi and The Good Lord Bird they’re opening and extending their universe. They’re [also] not picking inauthentic voices. It’s easy to just get a Black show; you have to get a show that exists not just because it’s a Black show.” Mero adds that it’s not about “giving the hottest Black person in Hollywood a show” but finding “diamonds in the rough”. “Forget the tokenism, find real voices and put them out there.” ★
AN D R EW ZA E H/G REG EN D R I ES /S H OW TI M E
D
esus & Mero’s move from Viceland to Showtime in 2019 triggered the introduction of a writers’ room for the pair for the first time. Ostensibly designed for sketches and field pieces, rather than a group of monologue writers, the team is a hivemind for the two men, a gang of idea folk who have the duo’s backs. The group consists of experienced writers such as Claire Friedman (SNL), Josh Gondelman (Last Week Tonight), and Mike Pielocik (The Late Show) as well as newcomers such as Robert Kornhauser and Heben Nigatu, plus Julia Young, who is also the voice of God on the show. This group, in fact, just won the Writers Guild Award for comedy/variety, beating Full Frontal with Samantha Bee, Last Week Tonight with John Oliver, Late Night with Seth Meyers and The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. “That award counts for more because it’s from other writers. It’s like Steph Curry complimenting your shot,” says Desus. “I don’t want the WGA to take away the award… but it doesn’t really feel like a writers’ room. Our writers know how to put things in our voices, and they know what we wouldn’t rock with.” Mero calls the room a “hangout”. One of those that was previously in the hangout, and one of the winners of the WGA award, was Ziwe, who spent two years writing on 75 episodes of the show. Ziwe says that she used to watch Desus & Mero’s show on her computer at work, when she was pretending to be working on spreadsheets. “I would not be here if it wasn’t for the people that were willing to stick their neck out and give me opportunities when there were so many other easier choices.” She calls the pair “brilliant, wild geniuses”. Adding that, “They influenced me to be
“REMARKABLY EFFECTIVE in sounding the alarm.”
“Jeff Orlowski’s ‘The Social Dilemma’ may be
THE MOST IMPORTANT DOCUMENTARY YOU’LL SEE THIS YEAR.”
“Perhaps the single most
LUCID, SUCCINT, AND PROFOUNDLY TERRIFYING analysis of social media ever.”
“A WELL-PACED, ABSORBING LOOK at the deep costs of Big Tech — fake news, election security concerns, radicalization, polarization and much more.”
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“EXEMPLARY. So relevant and of-the-moment it’s practically already in the future.”
FYC.NETFLIX.COM
Em my P re v ie w: Com edy
Renée Elise Goldsberry Tony Award winner Renée Elise Goldsberry conquers comedy as ’90s diva Wickie Roy in Girls5eva
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★
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★
With over two decades as an outstanding performer on TV and stage, Renée Elise Goldsberry has found success as a go-to character actor elevating everything she’s worked on from One Life to Live to The Good Wife. But after starring in Broadway’s Hamilton, the Tony Award-winning actress has earned the opportunity to showcase her skills even further with a slew of projects that include a solo album and a stint in the upcoming Marvel series She-Hulk. Goldsberry achieves another career high as the hysterically egocentric Wickie Roy in Meredith Scardino and Tina Fey’s ’90s girl band revival comedy, Girls5eva. 34 M // A 6 DDEEAADDLLI INNEE..CC OO M AW WAARRDDSSLLI N I NE E
H E ID I G U T M AN / P EACO CK
BY S T E V I E WO N G
★
OUTSTANDING COMEDY SERIES
Maya Erskine A
Anna Konkle
ORIGINAL
How was Girls5eva gifted to you?
the medium of what my mom calls
own personality after a while?
I think that’s a good word, ‘gift.’ I
“telecons” [laughs]. Fortunately,
I have a sneaking suspicion that if I
don’t know that you can say much
they’re forgiving and they believed
let my children watch the show, they
more about a show created by Mer-
we would show up in person and do
would be like, ‘What’s the big deal
edith Scardino (Unbreakable Kimmy
some justice to their brilliant script.
Schmidt) and executive produced by Tina Fey (30 Rock). They also had
The number of flashbacks for
already attached Sara Bareilles, so
this show is crazy!
it was a trifecta for me. And then I
That was really fun. The nature of
read the pilot script that was such a
the show is unique because we are
big, shiny, beautiful representation
ridiculously going back in time to
of what they were dreaming of. And I
do flashbacks, just because we said
just loved it so much because it was
one line that acknowledged some-
just laugh-out-loud funny.
thing that happened in the past.
Your character name of Wickie
Do you have a favorite out of all
Roy is kind of amazing.
the flashbacks?
It’s so good. If I had known of it ear-
Every single time we got to go back
lier in my career, I might be named
and be 20 years old—once I got over
Wickie Roy and I’d probably be that
the fact that I look nothing like I did
much better. I found out at the
when I was 20, and just kept mov-
end of the season, when Meredith
ing. I did remember the joy and the
Scardino’s sister came to set to visit,
optimism of that time. You know,
that Wickie is the nickname their
where you actually believed that
father uses.
your dreams were all going to come true and how just being in a group
I have a sneaking suspicion that if I let my children watch the show, they would be like, ‘What’s the big deal because that’s you anyway, minus the fact that you never, ever looked that good.’
because that’s you anyway, minus the fact that you never, ever looked that good [laughs].’ I’m going to be honest. I’ve been in a lot of girl groups in my life. I used to be on Ally McBeal with two beautiful women, Sy Smith and Vatrena King, being basically an ‘uh-huh’ girl in matching outfits. And I was a Schuyler Sister [in Hamilton]. No matter how lovely and sweet of a person as I believe I am, you are always thinking, How can I get in the middle of these three girls? I have always suppressed it because I love the other girls so much, and it’s just so unattractive to obviously be fighting for the spotlight. But when we were shooting the video for “Famous 5eva”, James, our choreographer, put Wickie in the back. And I remember thinking, Oh no, Wickie can’t be in the back. So
Wickie has such a special sense
of girls made you want to laugh. It
of self. Did you push for more
felt really healthy to wear it for those
beyond what was in the script?
few minutes. But if I had to pick a
There’s always room to take it a little
particular gag, we spent a tremen-
bit further. I remember having this
dous amount of time trying to figure
idea that a person that is so desper-
out the appropriate level of comedy
ately trying to be noticed amongst
in a music video that came out on
a group of people might hate having
September 10th, called “Quit Fly-
Did your work on the daytime
to always sing in a group. And the
ing Planes at My Heart”. We spent
soap opera One Life to Live pre-
way that she could get some more
all this time doing our little dance
pare you for the roles you’ve
attention is by singing a little bit
moves with our flight attendant
taken on lately?
longer than everyone else. So, yeah,
uniforms and everybody else being
Daytime was my best training
they would let me riff a little bit lon-
really uncomfortable, asking, “Is this
ground. Your character is blind one
ger than anyone else at the end of
too far? Are we ready to laugh about
week, then hunted by a serial killer.
songs and let me be that obnoxious
this yet?”
Whatever it is, the most important
one. All of that stuff was already
by the end of the video, Wickie is at the front center with her hands in the air. Clearly Ashley [Park] is the best dancer of the five of us, but Wickie finds a way to pose in the middle of that number.
lesson that I learned in a soap opera,
baked into the formula—they just let
Which immediately brings to
and it is definitely at play here, is
me play.
mind the amount of crazy songs
how to always win at the rooting
Girls5eva had to sing.
factor. At the end of the day, you
What was the first table read like
“Dream Girlfriends” was already
are the only one responsible for the
for you?
one of our favorites because it had
fact that the audience roots for you.
Terrible! My own journey with Wickie
the most ridiculously hilarious lyrics
So I’ve always learned no matter
kind of matched the character’s
in the world. They doubled down
what I’m doing, I had to make sure
journey in that I felt really good
so hard on these songs. Meredith
that someone would understand
about myself, being a part of the
Scardino is a really great lyricist.
what my character was doing. Even
show and how great I was going to
If she was in any way shy in the
if she was doing something wrong,
be. And then we did the first table
beginning, she got over it because
the audience would on some level
read over Zoom, I left the meeting
the hilarity when she and [EP] Jeff
love her. And that has to happen
and waited for them to call and fire
Richmond are left unchecked is just
for Wickie, because she’s so self-
me. It was so challenging to find
brilliant. If you haven’t listened to
absorbed. It’s her fault this group
Wickie over Zoom because there’s
the full version of “The Splingee” you
broke up in the first place and it
that delay and I wasn’t able to give
have missed something delicious.
could be so unforgivable. But you
them any of the humor that was in their script. So, yeah, I’ll blame
36 M // A 6 DDEEAADDLLI INNEE. .CC OO M AW WAARRDDSSLLI INNE E
have to love her and root for her to Did playing Wickie seep into your
figure everything out. ★
THOUGHT-PROVOKING”“FORCED A CULTURAL RECKONIN
“COMPELLING”
“BLOCKBUSTER” “ ”
HOROUGH, CONSIDERATE AND ENRAGING”
“
DEVASTATING
ILLUMINATES WITH STARK CLARITY
”
“POWERFUL”
“HEARTBREAKING”
XCELLENT”
E m m y P re v i e w: Com edy
DEAD MAN Michiel Huisman as Alex Sokolov in The Flight Attendant.
Michiel Huisman The Flight Attendant actor talks playing dead and the “departure” we can expect in Season 2
★
★
★
chorus in The Flight Attendant— you’re challenging Kaley’s character and filling in the blanks for the audience. Was that what attracted you to the part?
BY NADIA NEOPHY TOU
★
You’re almost like the Greek
★
There were many things that attracted me to it. First of all, I had never done comedy before, so
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D E A D L I N E .C O M / AWA R D S L I N E
that was something that I’ve been wanting to dip my toes in for a long time because I really enjoy watching comedy. And I also think that as an actor it’s just fun to also sometimes work on some lighter stuff, you know? And so, this seemed to
K ARO LI N A WOJ TAS IK
As an actor, Michiel Huisman has had plenty of opportunities to take on a variety of roles, from the fantasy drama of Game of Thrones to the romantic reverie of The Age of Adeline and the horror of The Haunting of Hill House. But in playing Alex Sokolov in The Flight Attendant—the series optioned, exec-produced by and starring Kaley Cuoco as flight attendant Cassie—the Dutch actor gets to flex a new comedic muscle as the mystery man in a one-night stand gone horribly wrong. Here, he discusses becoming the good-guy hallucination that haunts Cassie.
EXCELLENT VITAL” INSPIRING ” “POWERFUL EXPANSIVE, ENDLESSLY CURIOUS, BIG-HEARTED
PRIDE NAILS IT..
“FX’S
...
“REMARKABLE PERSONAL...SINCERELY MOVING”
HISTORY MADE
“ILLUMINATING”
...SMART...STANDS OUT
be like a great opportunity to do
stuff more. And so, that required a
then after the camera stopped roll-
that and to do it opposite someone
bit of adjusting, I think, for my part.
ing you would look over and then
like Kaley who’s really comfortable
you realize, “Oh, we’re still in a pan-
in the genre. But then I remember
Viewers really get caught up in
reading the first episode and think-
trying to figure out what hap-
ing, Wait, how am I... What’s going to
pened with Cassie that night
happen here? How in God’s name
—how are we going to see that
am I going to play a character that
now play out in the second sea-
dies halfway into the first episode?
son now that the mystery has
Such a bizarre thing, and the sur-
been solved?
real-ness of him being back after he
I can’t really speak to that, but I
dies. But really, it’s not like he’s res-
also think that I represent part
urrected from the dead. It’s really in
of Cassie’s trauma. And over the
her head, and I really liked that. And
course of this first season she needs
I think that when you’re saying it’s
to, or tries to, come to terms with
like the Greek chorus, it is bizarrely
that trauma. And I think Season
enough a little bit like Cassie is hav-
2 will be a bit of a departure from
ing a dialogue with herself, but that
that, and it will be a new adventure,
being me, you know? So, I thought
without wanting to spoil anything.
that that was crazy cool and would be a challenge for me to tackle.
That’s also what makes it such a standout series—it’s more than
demic. Everyone is wearing insane
That’s what I thought was going to be a challenge, to still keep it light and funny, but deal with such heavy subjects, you know? And my killing is by far not the heaviest.
amounts of PPE.” It was a bit surreal. This is so funny. So, Kaley, she’s a tennis player, she used to play tennis as a kid and she’s very good in sports and stuff and a fanatic, she wants to win. And so am I. And I love ping-pong. So, I talked about ping-pong to her a couple of times, and she was like, “I’m going to beat you. Let’s play.” And I’m like, “Dude, I take lessons. You know, I go to a place where I get classes and stuff. You’re not going to win.” So, for her birthday I brought in my teacher. He came to our studio in Brooklyn and gave her a lesson. And we had arranged for a ping-pong table and so we would always, between
It’s also not just any comedy,
a whodunnit; it’s the bigger story
it’s dark comedy and there’s the
of Cassie’s own life.
need to get that tone just right.
Yes. And that’s a real big story and
Yes, absolutely. And that was, I think
a pretty heavy story. So that goes
one of the biggest challenges in
back to what you referred to earlier,
making the show. I think that’s such
the tone of the show, that’s also
a big thing, that I only play a small
what I thought was going to be a
part in. That is really about writing,
challenge, to still keep it light and
you’re good, but you’re not ready.
directing, you know? And I’m glad
funny, but deal with such heavy
Before I know it, it’s eight-five to
we were able to pull it off.
subjects, you know? And my killing
her. I start to focus a bit more and I
is by far not the heaviest.
tense up and make the rookie mis-
You’ve been wanting to do com-
scenes, just run our lines while playing. And then one day, of course, lo and behold, she says, “Let’s play a game.” I’m like, “Really? Come on. We should just keep it nice and friendly.” And I really also thought, you know, I’m going to beat her, like,
take, so she wins. And she puts her
edy for a while—what did you
So, will you, or the hallucination
paddle down and she’s like. “Done.
learn from this experience?
of you, be back?
I’m done. We’re not playing again.”
I think that I learned a lot about
They want me to be incredibly
And I keep bugging her to play again.
being more sensitive to rhythm.
vague about that. I respect that
Then the pandemic hit. After the
Maybe that’s also something that
these writers want to keep it nice
pandemic, we weren’t allowed to
comes with the territory of doing
and vague and then they can sur-
use the ping-pong table anymore.
something that is a bit more in the
prise their audience.
You know what she gave me as a
comedic world. You know, like I just
wrap gift? She had bought me a
had to open up my senses a bit
Production was interrupted by
really nice Tiffany whiskey decanter.
more for the rhythm of a scene and
the pandemic, so what was it
Beautiful. And she had it engraved.
the rhythm of a line. I felt, especially
like to finish shooting?
It says, “Remember when I beat you
in the beginning, Kaley really under-
When we came back to finish the
at ping-pong? Love, Kaley.”
stood that and knew how to drive a
final three episodes, it must’ve been
scene. And I was like hobbling along,
in around September of last year,
Oh man, you’re never going to
and hopefully it got a bit better at a
and the only time that we could
live that down.
certain point. Because yeah, char-
pretend like things were relatively
Yeah. I have to live with that for-
acters probably speak their mind a
normal was when the cameras were
ever. She also posted it on her
bit more in the show. In The Flight
rolling, because then Kaley and I
social media that she won. So, I get
Attendant they’re thinking out loud,
could take off our face masks and
texts from friends like, “What hap-
and on many things that I’ve worked
be within six feet. So, it was strange.
pened?” She’ll never want to play
on before, characters internalized
You would forget about all of it. And
with me again. ★
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E m m y P re v i e w: Com edy
Making her comedy debut with Ted Lasso, the actress has found the perfect pandemic panacea BY JOE UTIC HI
★
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★
★
Juno Temple has never truly done comedy. In fact, with roles in the likes of Atonement, Cracks, Little Birds and Black Mass, to name a few, she has ploughed her field as a specialist in the darkest of darkness, and has relished every moment. She might have been surprised when co-creator Jason Sudeikis texted her with a role in Ted Lasso, but she says she can’t be more grateful for the opportunity it gave her, to explore warmth and light even as the world hurtled towards pandemic and protest. She plays Keeley Jones, a bright soul whose flame gets dimmed by the stereotype of her status as a star footballer’s girlfriend, until it is kindled by an unlikely friendship with the club’s owner, Rebecca.
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D E A D L I N E .C O M / AWA R D S L I N E
What happened next?
for you; what excited you—and
It was all a quick turnaround because
perhaps terrified you—about tak-
I’d been shooting these other proj-
ing part?
ects. I was just coming from another
I know, right? Normally I’m cast as
project where I play a much darker
very dark, dark characters.
character; Little Birds. I’d gotten back
This one came to me personally
to LA, but my suitcases hadn’t even
through Jason. I got a text from him,
reached me yet before I had to get on
because I’ve known him for a couple
a plane to go and shoot Ted Lasso.
of years. I genuinely thought he’d
I was terrified because the entire
texted the wrong person by accident.
cast that was attached were these
I was like, “Oh, no. He’s going to think
extraordinary people who were all
I’m funny. This’ll be a disaster.” I kept
very good at being funny. I don’t
waiting for him to text again and say,
think of myself remotely as a comedy
“Shit, I meant this for someone else.”
actress. The idea of getting that kind
But that never came. Then I read the
of timing right is just terrifying to me.
pilot, and I thought it was just such a
What was really cool about the first
genius idea. We got together and he
season was I got taught so much by
told me a little bit about the plan for
these brilliant co-stars.
Keeley’s journey from the start to the
Jason was so patient with me,
end of the season. Not in any crazy
when almost every 10 minutes I
detail—that’s always kept quite close
would be like, “I don’t know how
to his chest—but he described the
to make that funny.” He would say,
show he wanted to make in terms of
“Don’t worry; you don’t have to. Just
the British Office meets Friday Night
be you. Just be exactly as you would
Lights. I thought, If he can pull that
be as Keeley and it will all fall into
off, that’s some kind of wizardry.
place.” The writing is so extraordinary
A P P LE T V +
Juno Temple
This character is a new challenge
that you know the character you’re playing intimately. Everything on the show, from the costumes, to the makeup, to the production design, is all
FRIENDS Hannah Waddingham as Rebecca and Temple as Keeley.
set up so beautifully that you’d have to be really bad at your job to fuck it up. You didn’t expect you could play comedy. Over the season, Keeley doesn’t expect she is destined for something greater. And when we meet her, we see the stereotype before we see the person. Did you see a parallel there? Yeah. I love that line in the first season, Keeley talks about when she was 18 she was dating 23 year-olds, and now she’s nearly 30 she’s still dating 23 year-olds. I think there’s something to be said about that period of around 10 years, where social media became a thing. The WAG [Wives And Girfriends;
eyes to her beautiful sexuality and
a hundred times over. But they do
a popular acronym for the partners
that she needs to own it and be aware
bleed. And also, I hope I leave a little
of professional soccer players in the
of the fact that her femininity is the
of myself with each of them, too.
UK] image Is not something we’re
power she gets to put out into the
You definitely learn and grow from
really privy to anymore, because that
world. And it was such a gift to shoot,
it. Acting is like going to the univer-
because Hannah Waddingham, who
sity of humanity. If you don’t learn
plays Rebecca, is a monumental force
from every character, you’re doing it
of nature, and an inspiration to me,
wrong, I think.
all about magazine covers and being papped with their boyfriends in fancy restaurants. She’s already dealing with how to stay relevant given that change, when 10 years previously she was posing in men’s magazines. I think the thing that really turned me on about the conversation I had with Jason was the relationship Keeley would have with Rebecca. We don’t see female friendships like that often enough. They are two women supporting and loving each other, despite being different. Growing up, Thelma and Louise was one of my all-time favorite films. I still watch it, honestly, once every couple of weeks. That’s truly about two women who have each other’s backs, and it’s not about being competitive. It’s about fully encourag-
Getting into the headspace of Keeley during this crazy time to be alive has been special. Keeley has saved my mental health, truly.
as well as being one of my greatest friends in life.
Given your fears at the start about the comedy, were you sur-
You’re currently shooting the sec-
prised by how many moments of
ond season. How has it been to
drama the show allowed?
return to Keeley?
It isn’t so much that I was surprised
I can’t say a word about what hap-
by it, but even with moments I’d
pens [laughs]. But I will say I feel truly
been privy to, like the episode with
grateful to come back. It’s the first
the gala, and the whole beat with
time I’ve ever returned to a character.
Roy, Jamie and Keeley, that was a
I did a TV show a while ago which was
really amazing shoot and it really hit
supposed to go for more seasons,
me like an arrow to the heart when
called Vinyl, but it didn’t. So, this was
Brett [Goldstein] gave that per-
new to me too, and a little daunt-
formance. The joy of watching the
ing. But getting into the headspace
show as an audience member was
of Keeley—who truly is a bundle of
there were so many scenes I wasn’t
light—during this crazy time to be
a part of, and so I got to see all these
alive, where the world is hurting on
incredible performances, and the
ing the woman you love to blossom
so many levels and people are clos-
journeys of these characters, with
and become the greatest version of
ing doors rather than opening their
my girlfriends and guy friends and
herself. I think those relationships need
ears and hearing each other, has been
family. The lesson that Ted Lasso
to be shown as much as humanly pos-
special. Keeley has saved my mental
puts out is don’t judge a book by
sible because they’re the relationships
health, truly.
its cover—there’s a whole novel in
in my life—Juno’s life—that, my god, I would be dead without them.
between, and you’ve got to read it to Do characters always tend to
know someone. It’s something I’m
bleed into your life?
so proud to be a part of because I
she’s tits and ass, and I think Rebecca
I can’t help it. Even with the way you
really believe in that. It probably did
is the one to make her realize that
dress or interact with people; I can’t
have more drama to it than I thought
she’s got a whip-smart brain that she
help but become a little bit method.
it might, but then, as humans, what
could apply to publicity or marketing.
I mean, obviously I’m not really
do we do in dark moments? We
And Keeley really opens Rebecca’s
method, because if I were I’d be dead
laugh through them. ★
So, Keeley, she’s always been told
44
D E A D L I N E .C O M / AWA R D S L I N E
A P P LE T V +
was the work of the tabloids. It was
E m m y P re v i e w: Com edy
HORRIBLE BOSS Rob McElhenney as narcissistic ideas man Ian, with some of his Mythic Quest team members.
Rob McElhenney The Mythic Quest co-creator and actor on building real characters and snagging superstar guests
★
★
tary series. That sounds exciting. So, you’re going to have cameras in your face even more than usual, I guess. We already have. We’ve been shoot-
B Y M AT T C A R E Y
★
Congratulations on the documen-
★
★
ing for about three months. It’s so uncomfortable to have cameras around. I don’t have any right now,
46
D E A D L I N E .C O M / AWA R D S L I N E
which I’m grateful for. The doc crews tell me, “What? You’re an actor. You should be used to it.” And I’m just not. There’s such a big difference between walking onto a stage and knowing where the camera is at all times and also knowing I have control over what goes into the show. And
A P P LE T V +
Rob McElhenney co-created and stars in Mythic Quest—the Apple TV+ comedy series set in the dysfunctional workplace of a fictional gaming company, playing the visionary, if narcissistic, idea man behind the titular online roleplaying game. When he isn’t making hit shows like this or It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia, McElhenney is busy raising two sons with wife Kaitlin Olson, his Sunny co-star. And he recently took a side job—buying a Welsh soccer club with his pal Ryan Reynolds. FX just announced plans to air a docuseries on McElhenney and Reynolds’s football venture.
F O R
Y O U R
C O N S I D E R A T I O N
this one, I might not. So, it’s a little bit
television, and that is true in the gam-
and ability and not get into what
disconcerting, that’s for sure.
ing industry. And I thought there’s
makes him tick, what makes this
just so much comedy that can be
character tick, especially someone
Mythic Quest is a very funny and
mined from those character dynam-
that is clearly as problematic as C.W.
fast-paced show, and then you
ics. And then also I think there’s just
can hit with episodes that are
a lot of pathos, because everybody is
surprisingly poignant and that
truly passionate about what they’re
plumb interesting depths.
trying to do, and they truly love what
That’s what’s been so much fun for
they’re making, while at the same
me personally, because I’ve been
time they’re probably sacrificing
doing the same show for a long time
something in their per-sonal life to
[It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia].
do so. And I thought, “Wow, that just
And it’s a show I love doing, and
seems like a really rich environment
it’s a show that has a very specific
for a comedy.”
tone. And we play with it a little bit here and there. But there are just
You have two young sons. I’m
certain things that are anathema to
going to take a wild guess that
an episode of Sunny that we really
they’re into gaming.
dive head first into on Mythic Quest.
They are, yes. I wonder if there’s a
And I think the central reason for
human being under the age of 10
that is because we’re creating real
who’s been exposed to the games
human beings. Whereas in the other
who isn’t into video games. It’s
show [Sunny], those characters are
something that they enjoy and it’s
not actually real human beings. And
something I enjoy doing with them, so
if they were, they shouldn’t have a
that’s been a lot of fun.
television show made about them.
We wanted to present real human beings and their trials and tribulations, certainly through the prism of comedy, but still something that resonated.
Longbottom is. That’s why we wrote those series of episodes this year, starting with “Backstory!” and then “Peter”, which is that we wanted to tell the story of, C.W. as a young man and as an older man. And we wanted Murray to shine, which he does. How much pressure are you getting from fans for Charlie Day— one of the co-creators of Mythic Quest and your co-star on It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia—to show up in an episode? We’ve heard it, and we’ve discussed it, so that’s all I’ll say on the matter. But I will be seeing Mr. Day tomorrow. And then I’ll see him again on Monday for our first day back in the writers’ room on Sunny. So, you are moving forward with
They’re essentially sketches of the
One Mythic Quest actor that
the 15th season of Sunny?
id. They’re animated characters, live-
stands out because of his long
Yep. We start on Monday, in the room,
action cartoon characters, the way
career and Oscar pedigree is F.
and I just can’t wait. I miss these peo-
we think about them. Whereas in
Murray Abraham. In Season 2 you
ple dearly.
Mythic Quest, we wanted to present
got two more Oscar winners to
real human beings and their trials and
join you, Anthony Hopkins and
There are a bunch of key roles for
tribulations, certainly through the
William Hurt. How did F. Murray
women on Mythic Quest, and the
prism of a comedy, but still some-
initially come aboard?
show gets into the challenges
thing that resonated as wholly human
Well, look, what I know about actors,
facing women who work in the
and true to the human condition.
being one myself, is that if you send
gaming industry. Does your expe-
them good material, they respond.
rience being raised by two moms
You’re not necessarily a big gamer
We were very proud of that first
make you more sensitive to these
yourself, right? What about that
episode when we sent it to Murray,
issues than a typical guy?
world captured you as something
and we’re certainly proud of any of
Possibly. It’s hard to say because I
to mine as a workplace comedy?
the scripts that we write. So, when I
only know one experience, and that’s
I realized having toured the studios of
send it to a fellow actor, regardless of
the one that I had growing up. Cer-
[gaming company] Ubisoft in Mon-
how many awards they’ve won, I’m
tainly, it shaped me into the person
treal it’s pretty much like a television
at least pretty confident that we’ve
I am and a lot of the decisions that I
show. It just reminded me so much of
done a good job in conveying the
make. I don’t know if I can point to it
the experience that I have been liv-
story we’d like to convey. And it might
directly. I can say that what we try to
ing through for the last 15 years, and
not line up with what they’re inter-
do is to present an authentic experi-
I just knew I had a lot of experience
ested in doing, but that we’ve done
ence and to make sure that we are
in the field, and I could draw from
our end. And then we make them an
presenting the gaming industry in an
that. There are just so many similari-
offer they can’t refuse.
honest light. And all the things that
ties, people all stuck together from
In the first season, Murray just
different depart-ments, all working
crushes. I mean, he comes in, and
all the things we’re exploring are what
for a common goal. And each one of
he kills every scene comedically. But
people are exploring in the gaming
them recognizing that in this collabo-
when we approached the second
industry. So, anything that you see
ration, that every moving part was
season we thought, Well, it is kind of a
in the show is definitely a product of
truly important. And that is true in
waste to have an actor of his pedigree
that, first and foremost. ★
48
D E A D L I N E .C O M / AWA R D S L I N E
we’re talking about on the show and
The
Partnership No.9
When Cobra Kai was first announced as a new series based on the iconic The Karate Kid films, fans were immediately skeptical if the iteration would match up to the legendary status of the original. But creators Josh Heald, Jon Hurwitz and Hayden Schlossberg made the smart move by not only bringing back the decades-long feud between Daniel LaRusso (Ralph Macchio) and Johnny Lawrence (William Zabka), but also by turning the narrative away from Johnny’s downtrodden point of view seen in the films. The new take and a next generation of talented newcomers has made Cobra Kai one of Netflix’s most popular series on the streamer. In conversation with Stevie Wong, Macchio and Zabka explain the joys of The Karate Kid legacy and being able to revisit their characters through a fresh lens. 50
D E A D L I N E .C O M / AWA R D S L I N E
COU RT ESY OF N E TF LI X
RALPH MACCHIO & WILLIAM ZABKA
p
The
Partnership
NO MERCY Left to right: Jacob Bertrand as Hawk, Zabka as Johnny and Xolo Maridueña as Miguel.
How was Cobra Kai initially pitched to you?
chance of possibly tainting the legacy than enhanc-
is that Daniel and Johnny are actually very similar.
William Zabka: The creators, Josh Heald, Jon
ing the legacy. So, we met in New York City and I
Depending on which sensei they went with, is where
Hurwitz, Hayden Schlossberg, emailed me out of the
was stirred by their initial description of, “OK, we’re
their lives went. So just because it was happily ever
blue and said they had a project that they wanted
pitching this story not necessarily through the eyes
after for LaRusso at the onset and down the rabbit
to discuss. I had worked with Josh on Hot Tub Time
of Daniel LaRusso at the onset.” Then I called Billy
hole of hell for poor Johnny Lawrence, when you start
Machine so I assumed it was some comedy that
the next morning to talk about it and we mirrored
flipping these angles, you start seeing the flaws and
was brand new, but they sat me down in a Mexican
each other’s concerns that we wanted to make sure
the good heartedness in both. And I think at this
restaurant and pitched Cobra Kai to me. And so
our characters’ integrity was upheld. But the timing
point of the series, that’s really come to the surface
that’s how I heard about it and I was stirred. Though
was just right. Creed had just come out and was
in a great way.
I had a lot of questions, especially what was the tone
quite successful from a perspective of entering the
Zabka: Johnny Lawrence was the villain of the movie.
of the show, because The Karate Kid is a beloved film
Rocky universe through the eyes of Apollo Creed’s
He got a crane kick to his face, and for 35 years I’ve
for the family. It’s got a good heart and this version
kid. Looking at it now, everything just came together
been carrying the torch of the quintessential ’80s
sounded a little like it’s would go into an R-rated
beyond our expectations.
asshole. So for me, I stepped in very gingerly wanting to make sure that they were going to humanize
reverence for The Karate Kid, and what they pitched
When Cobra Kai started, the biggest surprise
Johnny, that they weren’t going to double down on
was a merger of current and still had the emotion
was seeing Johnny Lawrence as the series
his dickness, that he was going to have a heart and a
and all the sentiment of The Karate Kid mixed in.
underdog. Now that we’re heading into Season
redemption arc, but with layers, and humanity.
Ralph Macchio: I was like, “I’ve heard my share
4, it finally looks like Johnny and Daniel are on
of why we should go back to the well with Daniel
equal footing.
Kid never existed, this show could still exist. Even
LaRusso,” at some point over three decades, but
Macchio: When we started Season 1, Johnny was
though we have The Karate Kid as our backstory,
nothing was ever really interesting. They were always
always the angle into the show and then these
but in many ways, this is a brand new story of two
short sighted, one-off ideas that would have a bigger
characters would flesh out. But what you discover
men trying to make peace with their past, and
52
D E A D L I N E .C O M / AWA R D S L I N E
What I love about this show is that if The Karate
COU RT ESY OF N E TF LI X
comedy side. But the guys were super fans and had a
The
Partnership
grow, and fall forward and fail with their differences.
The show really takes its time breaking down
fighting as we’re getting older and older [laughs].
They also need each other and without each other,
every character and where they’re coming from.
It’s tougher, you move a little different, everything
they wouldn’t be where they are. People are really
Zabka: Well, there’s a saying that every bully was
hurts a little bit more. It takes a lot more stretching
connecting with the humanity of these characters.
once a victim. Everybody has a backstory and
and prep. We’re banging forearms together and the
And they’re finding themselves in not just Johnny
everybody has their point of view depending how a
next morning we’re in the makeup trailers saying,
and Daniel, but in all the kids. I think that’s why the
story is told. In the ’80s, we had these classic design
“Hey, I got Macchio-ed, I got Zabka-ed,” pointing out
show is working so well. And that’s really a credit to
stories like Rocky, where you had the bad guy, the
our bruises. The young kids are spectacular, as we
our writers.
good guy and the climactic ending. Today we have
once were. But we work really hard at it. And within
Macchio: Yeah, he’s absolutely right. Because
more of shades of grey and a longer format where we
whatever limitations we may have, it’s a great deal of
whether it’s bullying, whether it’s fathers and sons,
get the chance to dial into all the nuances of these
pride to pull it off the best we can.
the mentorship, or overcoming those obstacles as
characters, which I think is fantastic. Ralph and I talk
Zabka: I think also to the credit of the training that
one of the teenagers in the show, or one of the adult
about it all the time, you can take this show and look
we had. Especially for me in The Karate Kid, I had
characters, they’re all on that journey. And they are
through the prism of any of the characters eyes and
Pat Johnson who really gave me the nuts and bolts
failing and succeeding. For the most part, almost
it works through their point of view. So the writers
of martial arts and my style. It’s all about recall and
every character has good intentions going forward.
made a real point to make these three-dimensional,
muscle memory and it’s really built into us. What
We have our villains. But the blurred lines of LaRusso
deep, honest characters and we have a great cast
we don’t have on the show, which we would love to
and Lawrence as quintessential protagonist hero and
that’s realizing that.
have, is time. We had three months to do the final
bad guy, all that’s peeled away.
fights for The Karate Kid, even the skeleton outfit What was it like for you guys to get back into
fence fight, we had plenty of rehearsals for that. On
even though the adult character still has that heart
fighting shape?
a show with this many fights and as much content
and genuine good intention, you start seeing flaws
Macchio: I actually feel more ready for it finishing
and many characters and storylines, sometimes we’ll
and mistakes in his not so attractive qualities that he
Season 4 than I did in Season 1 where I didn’t have
get one, two days, if that. I’m always surprised when
battles with. And therein lies a very rich adult role for
to do much. I knew it was coming, but I didn’t know
I spar with Ralph how strong his blocks are. He has
me the actor, Ralph, to have the opportunity to play.
at what level. It seems they add more and more
legitimate blocks. It feels like a baseball bat to my
Everyone was cheering for that kid in 1984 and
54
D E A D L I N E .C O M / AWA R D S L I N E
COU RT ESY OF N E TF LI X
WAX ON Daniel (Macchio) encourages his daughter Samantha (Mary Mouser) to learn karate in their home dojo.
The
Partnership
arms. I’m like, “Dude, chill out on that.” And he’s like,
martial artists, let alone actors. So we’re watching
this guy fishing up the river, going the wrong way, it’s
“Hey, I’m just trying to save my life.”
this happen and it reminds me of what happened to
always funny to watch and it’s super fun to play. One
Macchio: I’m always in defensive mode [laughs].
me. I was a recipient of great training at the origins of
of my favorite scenes is when Aisha (Nichole Brown)
We do have a rapport with each other not only in the
The Karate Kid. And Ralph, his kick exploded all the
walks into the dojo in Season 1 and says, “I’m here to
written word, but in the physical stuff. We always
dojos across the country and in the world.
join karate.” I reply, “I’m sorry, we don’t accept girls in
look in each other’s eyes. It makes a difference
As far as being mentor, I think I’m more like the
the dojo.” And she says, “Why?” I say, “Same reason
because when you’re doing that I could see what
fun camp counsellor. We always try to keep a positive
why there’s no women in the army, it doesn’t make
he’s thinking, it’s really quite special in that way.
set, good attitudes, good work ethic, friendly, fun,
sense, they have tiny hollow bones.” Those lines are
safe, all those things. I don’t get too much in their
just so juicy to play and when you play it straight, it’s
How has it been surrounded by all this younger
business. I try to lead by example, because they’re
just hysterical. I love playing that trajectory of a guy
energy in your cast?
very capable actors. I’m always marvelled at their
that’s learning as he’s going. And I remember what
Macchio: It’s been rewarding for me. It’s something
talent and what they bring to the day. Ralph and I like
it was like before Facebook and the internet and
I wasn’t expecting doing the show. To share a little
to take a pause and let them do all the fighting.
all that. And there was a simplicity about that. So,
bit of the wisdom I may have over the years as an
Macchio: Pull up a chair, take our shoes off, eat
here he’s getting educated into the modern world
actor, a father, a husband, as a man who’s not 20
some babka. They are spectacular. These kids really
and there some trappings with that as well as the
anymore, getting to hand that down and telling those
care and come to work every day with a great sense
benefits.
stories. And then this great young cast that absorbs
of pride. It’s really rewarding in that way.
Macchio: But the thing that I love so much is that
everything and gives back to me, that’s been really
it comes up clueless and innocent because he is in
kind of wonderful going forward.
Johnny is definitely stuck in the ’80s. How has
that time zone in his mind. And it logically makes
Zabka: When we started four years ago, these kids
that been for you to play?
sense from Billy’s perspective. When LaRusso is
were all novices. Now they are growing into young
Zabka: It’s been very fun. He’s very much a cave-
in witness of this, he has to then navigate through
adults. They were me and Ralph when we started
man and an artifact of the ’80s. I have the benefit
the ridiculousness. So therein lies that element of
The Karate Kid. They didn’t know how to lift their leg
because I’ve lived through all the changes. I was
comedy, where once again, don’t shine a light on the
at first, but these kids are turning into legitimate
there before cell phones and computers. But to see
Johnny Lawrence of it all, but play the flip reaction of
56
D E A D L I N E .C O M / AWA R D S L I N E
COU RT ESY OF N E TF LI X
WE MEET AGAIN Johnny and Daniel are reunited with Johnny’s former sensei and Daniel’s nemesis, John Kreese, played by Martin Kove.
The
Partnership
BETTER TOGETHER Cobra Kai sees the once rivalrous duo Johnny and Daniel pushed to join forces.
planted in the relevance of today.
Big Bear and they’ve spent the night at my house.
What has it been like to bring these guys
So when they got to come back, it was like a
Speaking of the ’80s, what has been your
back?
reunion. Same with Elisabeth Shue, having worked
favorite tune from the soundtrack?
Macchio: It’s been great. I mean, everyone is on
with her, it was very, very easy to get that chemistry
Macchio: There are lots of good ones, there’s the
their A-game. When any characters from the origi-
back instantly.
REO Speedwagon singalong in Episode 9 of Season
nal films come back, they enhance the story. It’s
1. “Back In Black” by AC/DC peppered here and there,
great for us. It’s just warm and fuzzy because we
What can you say about Season 4?
Queen in almost every season.
love these people and they helped create this story
Macchio: What I’m most looking forward to in the
Zabka: Foreigner. All of these are songs that we grew
that is such a big part of our lives. It also gives the
Daniel/Johnny team up is the challenge. Navigating
up with. I mean, this is a soundtrack of my life. It’s
show such rich credibility beyond just the Johnny/
their varied personalities and stubborn mindsets as
very authentic. And I used to listen to those acts, this
Daniel rivalry. It’s just branched off into so many
they work toward the same endgame. Their history
is not movie-making. That’s just like, a video of my
different areas and characters and storylines.
is nuanced and multi-layered. They are wired so
life from before.
Last season when I went to Okinawa, recon-
differently even though their intentions are aligned.
Macchio: You mean eight tracks.
necting with Chozen (Yuji Okumoto) and Kumiko
Billy and I love diving into the friendship as well
Zabka: And those songs work today, they’re
(Tamlyn Tomita), from how Daniel LaRusso deals
as the rivalry. This is what [executive producer]
anthems. And I love that the new generation of kids
with Johnny Lawrence back in the states. The
Hayden Schlossberg has always called the Ross
are discovering these songs as a great new song. I
essences of yesterday give information for today.
and Rachel element of our show. It makes for great
don’t know, you weren’t even a thought back when
comedy as well as heightened drama within
that song was written.
Zabka: When [director] John Avildsen cast us
Season 4.
Macchio: You see these teenagers wearing the Zep-
for the film, he put a chemistry together with the
Zabka: I was thrilled Johnny and Daniel found
pelin, AC/DC and Metallica shirts. It’s awesome. They
personalities and the people we are, that is still
common ground and aligned themselves at the
talk about the four-quadrant show, right? You have
working. The friendships I made on Karate Kid, the
end of Season 3. “The enemy of my enemy is my
parents and kids and grandparents watching and
Cobra Kais, they’ve been my best friends since the
friend.” It’s a great note and launching point for all
this show has those elements of nostalgia, yet firmly
movie wrapped and we’ve done real road trips to
that’s ahead in the story. ★
58
D E A D L I N E .C O M / AWA R D S L I N E
COU RT ESY OF N E TF LI X
the world reacting to him. It really is well executed.
Jurnee Smollett, Jonathan Majors and Mischa Green
Lucia Aniello & Paul W. Downs
HBO Max FYC Drive-In HBO Max returned to real life with events for Genera+ion, Hacks and Lovecraft Country.
Hannah Einbinder
DJ Jadaboo
Daniel, Zelda and Ben Barnz
60
D E A D L I N E .C O M / AWA R D S L I N E
J E FF KRAV IT Z / FI LM M AG I C FOR H BO
M AY 1 5 - 2 0 , 2 0 2 1 PA S A D E N A , C A L I F O R N I A
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