Dodgy Interview by Alice Jones-Rodgers.

Dodgy

*Staying Out for the Season!

Interview by Alice Jones-Rodgers.

“When we’ve got each other’s back ... nothing will stop us!”

As with all great guitar-based bands in the mid-’90s, it was inevitable that Dodgy, with their seemingly effortless ability to write a perfect hook-filled, big chorused Pop song and their natural charisma, would somehow strike a melodious chord with a nation in the grips of Britpop-mania. However, whereas Oasis bickered their way through those few years of Union Jack waving insanity and record companies snapped up any band who might hang neatly on the fishtails of their parkas, vocalist, bassist and chief songwriter Nigel Clark; guitarist Andy Miller and drummer Mathew Priest’s key strength was always in the bond between them and the fact that they were much more interested in the music they made than any publicity that they might be afforded.

Perhaps it was something to do with the fact that, by the time Britpop swaggered into the equation as the antidote to the US Grunge scene, Dodgy had already built up a loyal following on their own terms, having been in existence since 1990, or the fact that their optimistic, harmonydrenched sound owed much more to the US West Coast music and Northern Soul scene of the ‘60s than Merseybeat or Ray Davies-aping observation. Take for example, their biggest hit, ‘Good Enough’ (UK#4), which was based around a drum loop sampled from a Lee Dorsey track, or its astoundingly sonically adventurous parent album, 1996’s ‘Free Peace Sweet’ and we were presented with a band who truly were proud to be an anomaly.

When we call Clark for a chat about the band’s history and their plans for the future, he speaks with a palpable sadness about Dodgy’s premature end back in 1998, but a massive amount of pride and elation about having been reunited with his bandmates since 2008. These days, he, Miller and Priest might live a sizable distance from one another, but that bond between them seems stronger than ever. So much so that there are even tentative plans to record a third album since their reformation and sixth (not including 2001’s Clark-less ‘Real Estate’) overall. “I’m always busy!”, Clark

Nigel

tells us. “I’m in my studio. I wrote a lot of songs during lockdown and wondering which songs are worthwhile taking forward to the next level of actually demoing, you know. So, I’m doing that and hang on, I can tell how many I’m through ... I mean, there’s bloody hundreds! But, yeah, I’ve got about a third of the way through and this has taken two days! [Laughs].”

The prospect of a new Dodgy album is an exciting thought, but whether or not any of those songs will be included, we will have to wait and see. However, the most joy that I derived from the following interview was just to find a man who, despite the many ups and downs he and his friends have travailed over the years, now seems happier than ever to be part of the band that, in the end, even being associated with a scene that brought us so many great bands, but also damaged so many, simply could not be destroyed. This is a tale about following your dreams, reaching the very top of your game, how what comes up must come down, starting all over again and, to coin a phrase, “making the most of” what is available to you in an ever-changing music industry, but most of all it is one about how undying friendship can conquer all.

Firstly, hello Nigel and thank you for agreeing to our interview, it is lovely to speak to you. It certainly sounds like you kept yourself busy during lockdown anyway!

Andy

Well, see, that was the thing, I was just in my studio. We couldn’t do anything, could we? Except for like lockdown gigs and stuff like that. You know what? I kind of liked it! [Laughs] ... and I’m not sure if it’s gone back to normal yet. The world definitely changed since we got locked down and you changed the way you live and I think that ... you know, I definitely have. I mean, I’ve really struggled this year doing the driving. We had a lot of gigs to do and just getting really tired after forty minutes of driving, when I’ve got to do six hours! [Laughs].

Math and latest addition Stuart Thoy

Going right back at the beginning, we believe that Dodgy were formed from the ashes of a previous band called Purple, is that right?

It is! I mean, Purple never really did anything though. I think we did a few gigs. We did one gig, or a couple of gigs in Birmingham, maybe, but we were formed in London really. First of all, when we first moved down to London in, God knows, 1989, we sort of came up with the name Purple, but obviously, it had no relevance to anything, it was just a colour. And I’m not the biggest fan of purple, if I’m honest, as a colour! [Laughs]. I think it’s one of those colours! It’s a funny colour! But, anyway, we didn’t last very long and I think, you know ... yeah, we did a couple of gigs. I remember doing one in Birmingham and a couple in sort of like little venues in London. We were a three-piece, so Purple was before Andy [Miller, guitarist] joined. So, it was me, a guy called Fred [Collier] on bass ... I played guitar and Mathew [Priest] on drums and I suppose we were like a late-’80s

Dodgy in 1993. L/R: Math, Nigel and Andy

version of The Jam [laughs].

So, from that, how did Dodgy come into being and how did you eventually come to sign to A&M Records for the release of your debut album, 1993’s ‘The Dodgy Album’?

Well, so, when Purple was going, we lived right in the city of London, we lived right in the centre, we lived in Battersea, and you know, we were down there and it was like an extended holiday when we first moved to London. We had a nice sort of apartment, but we couldn’t afford it and to afford it, we’d all have to go and get jobs and I didn’t want to get a job, because I’d moved down there and my job was, I wanted to be a songwriter and play music. And so, we moved out and we moved to somewhere cheaper out by Heathrow Airport where the house had a garage and I built a studio in the garage so we could rehearse. And we still were with Fred, and then Fred decided to leave and we had a few different members and then we put an advert in the paper and Andy Miller

turned up. I mean, we literally saw about fifty guitarists! And these were the days when it was all though the Melody Maker or the paper called Loot. Do you remember Loot? Andy wouldn’t read the music press, so he found us through Loot and so, you know, it was a free advert. So yeah, it was quite funny and Andy was always like a really tidy guitarist in the sense that he loved Jimmy Page and Jimi Hendrix. I was more of a sort of a Joe Strummer, sort of like Punky sort of guitarist, three chords, whereas as Andy was very finesse and, you know, lead solos and it was like ‘Oh, this is great!’ And so it was really good and that’s how Dodgy were formed really! And how we got signed to A&M was, we were really struggling to find gigs ... not struggling to find gigs, but struggling to find gigs that people would be at and there was a whole thing in the early-’90s, and the late’80s actually, when you had to pay thirty pounds to put a gig on by a band, so we’d have to pay thirty quid and all the promoters would be making that money and give us two-hundred tickets, but we were from Birmingham, we didn’t know anyone! So, in the end, we decided that we needed to find our own venue, so we did and we used that and we called it The Dodgy Club. So, that’s where we started really, where we’d DJ and we did our own little gig at ten o’clock and then it all closed off at eleven and everyone went home! And we did it every couple of weeks for a year. It was our own little vibe and then, you know, record companies would come. They’d phone up and go, ‘We’d like to get on the guestlist for The Dodgy Club’ and I’d go ‘Sorry mate, no guestlist!’ We didn’t play the game either, so we were very much like ‘This is our thing, we’re not playing the game!’ And I think that really paid off, really, because, you know, it’s power! And it’s yours! ‘Power’ is a horrible word actually, but I liked the fact that this was ours and we wanted to protect it and yes, of course we wanted a record deal, of course we did, but you can’t be too hungry for it, you’ve got to be a little bit cool, haven’t you? Do you know what I mean?

Moving forward, 1994 saw you release the album that would provide you with your chart breakthrough, ‘Homegrown’ (UK#28), which featured the singles ‘Melodies Haunt You’ (1994, UK#53, as part of ‘The Melod-EP’); ‘Staying Out for the Summer’ (1994, UK#38 / remixed and re-released in 1995, UK#19); ‘So Let Me Go Far’ (1995, UK#30) and ‘Making the Most Of’ (1995, UK#22). By this point in the band’s career, would you say that chart success was something that Dodgy were striving for even more than previously and how did it feel to see each successive single released from ‘Homegrown’ peak higher than the last?

Yeah, I think from the word go, really ... I think when you get a record deal, you sign up to the expectation of like, that being ... It’s like if you were a rockclimber, you’d want to reach the peak of Everest, but you start off small. And I think our first single release, which was ‘Summer Fayre’ [1991], we’d always go ‘Oh, this could go bloody high!’ But, anyway, it was about 180, or something like that! But, weirdly, all of our singles, right up until ‘Good Enough’ [1997, UK#4, ‘Free Peace Sweet’] went higher than the last one. And I think that by the time ‘Good Enough’ came out ... I mean, that is a different story, but the record company, you’re in the studio, you’re spending money, or the record company are spending your money on their behalf or whatever it is, to record it and the pressure is ‘Well, have we got a single here?’ Do you know what I mean? ‘Have we got a single here? Have we got a radio hit here?’ And, you know, everybody was saying that to me and being the sort of principle songwriter, or ideas person especially, coming up with all the ideas in the studio, I was sort of like, ‘Well, is that a hit?!’ And I still do it now! You know, I mean, when I write a song, I still think ‘is this going to sound good in a club, or on the radio?’ Normally the radio, I think about, you know, but there’s nothing wrong with that. If you think of anything, like any sport, anything, you always want to be the fastest and the first in anything. But I

must admit, I’m not interested in being the first anymore, I would rather hang back and do something that’s going to last a little bit longer.

It sounds like there was a lot of pressure that came with being the principle songwriter during that era?

Yeah, it was an enormous amount of pressure, if I’m honest and I think I was really good at handling it, because I’d spent such a long time, or at the time, I thought I’d spent a long time, sort of perfecting something, but I worked with some really great people and I was really fortunate. You know, a record company is a whole team of marketeers, press agents, TV people and they’re all working on your behalf with that product when the album comes out, and yeah, I think the pressure that got to me was that I WAS the product and I WAS the sort of ... and I think that that became ... I suppose, in some ways, [laughs] I wanted to go back to my independent existence, do you know what I mean? And I was lucky enough to be a part of that whole thing in the ‘90s, which, as we look back, was the last real time of any real major music industry. I mean, because it was twenty-five years ago and I have no idea what the music industry is like now! Do you know what I mean? Do they sign deals? Do they make albums? Everything’s on Spotify! How do you make money in that?! I don’t think you do! And the thing is, there’s always somebody taking your money and sort of advising you wrongly and I think that what happened to me was, the first time around in the ‘90s, you feel like you’re carried away on a wave and then all of a sudden, you realise ‘Where am I? And how did I get here? And who said I could be here?!’ Do you know what I mean? I think there was a bit of a step back and I sort of glimpsed reality. And, you know, I was sort of aware that ... at that time, my wife was pregnant with our first child, and that was in ‘95, so I understood ... well, we both did ... that we had to keep working, but, you know, I wanted to take a little bit more of a ... not a backseat, but I wanted to take a bit more control over what we

over a year, rather than squishing it all in, and I think certain people in the sort of business side of it didn’t like that [laughs], so I was, not ousted, but I was made to feel not very welcome really. Because that was the industry at the time. Children weren’t very welcome in the music industry at the time!

You really did have it all going on, didn’t you?!

Yeah, and I think you can sort of appreciate, you know, how like it is a business and, you know now, business doesn’t give a shit about the environment, it doesn’t give a shit about children and women, it doesn’t give a shit about ... this is business in general. It only cares about money! And as a musician, I’m not really that money-motivated if I’m honest, you know. And I’m not! I mean, what would I do with it?! All I want to do is write songs! I’d just write songs in a nicer place! Do you know what I mean? I don’t have many wants really, as in, you know, I have no desire to have a Lamborghini, I don’t like cars!

The ‘Homegrown’ years, 1995

I used to work in the motor trade, I don’t like cars!

I know what you mean, because we’re the same. We’re not bothered about material possessions, we just like doing what we do!

Yeah, it’s been hijacked somewhere, hasn’t it, I suppose, somewhere along the line? And it’s a real shame, but you’ve got to keep your integrity and you’ve got to keep doing what you do and that’s what I feel I’ve got to do, you know. I’ve been doing this for over thirty-years and I love what I do and it had been hard and I find one of the most difficult things I do is, when I did eventually leave the band in the ‘90s [1998] is going back to being, you know ... I’m doing that because I’m doing the brackets thing with my fingers ... being a ‘normal person’ again. Do you know what I mean? But I was a dad and I had to go and get a job and stuff like that, so I worked for a little while, gave up music. I didn’t give up my music, I gave up the whole music industry and all that, to save

myself in some ways, I suppose.

Well, it’s what you had to do at the time, isn’t it?

Yeah, exactly!

‘Homegrown’ and its follow-up album, 1996’s ‘Free Peace Sweet’ (UK#7), which featured the singles ‘In a Room’ (1996, UK#12); ‘Good Enough’ (1996, UK#4); ‘If You’re Thinking of Me’ (1996, UK#11) and ‘Found You’ (1997, UK#19) were both released during the heyday of Britpop. Having formed in 1990, you would have obviously seen the rise of that movement, but was Britpop something Dodgy were keen to be associated with and how did you see the band’s place within that scene?

Hhhmmm! Yeah, I mean, at the time, I really remember we weren’t for it at all. I felt that in the early-’90s, when you say 1990/1991, we did our own thing and we felt very independent and, you know, it wasn’t like there was a bunch of bands who all had the same ideals and stuff like that. They possibly did. But it was very competitive, if I’m honest, at the time and my problem was that I’m not a flag fan, I don’t like flag-waving and I felt that the whole tag of ‘Brit’ was really terrible, because we were touring France and Netherlands and Germany and it’s like, you don’t want people to think that! It was just very backward and I thought that, you know, we’d come too far. And I felt that, basically, the whole thing got dumbed down really in the mid-’90s, and I thought that was a real shame, because ... and again, here you go, business got involved and it was ALL about money and the quality of everything went down a little bit and the expression, everything formulated around it; it’s got to be guitars and it’s got to be this and that. So, I found it very ... just not very exciting and it was a shame to be linked with it and you’re never going to fight it. You know, people always say it, you know, there’s so many people who are doing the Britpop thing now and it’s a nostalgia thing. I don’t know, you can’t deny people. The one thing you can’t do and

I’ve learned, is when people are young, there were a lot of people around in the mid-’90s and, I mean, the fans of Dodgy and bands like that would have been all fourteen or fifteen, you know, and it’s their first bands that they were into and you can’t ever ... even though they’ve changed like twenty-five years later ... you can’t take that away from them. You know, it’s who they are. Even if they don’t like the music ... I mean, I used to like Dead Kennedys and Crass. You know, I’m bit older and they’re real hardcore Punk bands. Now, I still love them ... I don’t listen to them so much anymore, but if I played them to someone, they might go ‘That’s bloody terrible!’ [Laughs], but I love it, because it’s mine and it was when I was fourteen, fifteen.

Yeah, because I was fourteen in 1995, so I was one of those people then, and there were some amazing bands at the start of that whole Britpop thing. But I think, even at that time, like you were saying, it all went a bit silly, didn’t it?

Yeah, it did. And it was that whole thing of that whole Oasis / Blur thing on the BBC News [August 1995] and it was just like ‘for Britpop’ and I was just like ... you know, I think it’s just how things are and, you know, it was like three years that seemed to last forever at the time, but now I look back and go ‘three years is nothing!’ You know, ‘94 to ‘97 is nothing, you know!

I know what you mean, because just as a music fan and somebody who was working at HMV for most of that (1996-1999), it did seem to drag on for a long time and it was only three years.

Yeah, exactly! I mean, I used to work in a record shop when I was a kid, when I was at school, so that was my whole input into it, you know, into music, I suppose. Having a comprehensive education that wasn’t great, but just wanting to do something, I found myself in a record shop at fourteen, and it was an Indie shop, and seeing all the records come in and when you have a job that feels like

Christmas every day [laughs] ... I loved it, I absolutely loved it! I wasn’t even allowed to be employed, I was too young, but I used to go, I used to love it, I used to bunk off school and do it because I loved it so much! [Laughs]. You know, you’d do anything and the thing is, I was really fortunate and I think that I’ve had my life, I’ve lived my life, and I must admit that ... I had a house and a mortgage when I was nineteen and then I realised that wasn’t the life I wanted, so I left my job and I moved from Birmingham to London to follow my dreams and it was really hard, but the thing is, it’s really real to me. I was once a really crap guitarist who couldn’t put three chords together and now I feel that, you know, I’m not a bad guitarist, I’m quite a good guitarist. Do you know what I mean? And a good singer! I knew I had some sort of voice when I was younger, but I feel as though I’ve got to know my voice in those thirty years and I’ve got to know my voice as an instrument, you know.

Isn’t it funny how we both started out working in record shops? Because I was very similar. I started at HMV on my school work experience and just got kept on afterwards until I went to university and I absolutely loved it!

Oh wow, no way! Oh, well cool! That’s really well cool! I know, I loved it, it was my favourite job! When it got closed down I was devastated!

Talking of ‘Free Peace Sweet’, which incidentally celebrated its twentyfifth anniversary this June, that was the album that saw Dodgy reaching the top ten in both the album and the singles chart, with second single ‘Good Enough’ peaking at number 4. What are some of your favourite memories from the ‘Free Peace Sweet’ era?

Oh wow! Well, one of the first favourite memories was just, I managed to get the guy ... we recorded the album at Wessex [Sound] Studios in London and I could walk to it from my house. I lived in North London and so I could

The ‘Free Peace Sweet’ era, 1996

be with my son and my wife and I could go to work, as it seemed [laughs], you know, and be like ‘I’m going to the studios, see you later, had my breakfast!’ And it was just such a creative process and I’d be at home in the evening. Because before that, we were on tour, so, really, the songwriting, I’d done bits and bobs, but I was literally writing songs in the evening and then going back in the studio the next day and going ‘I’ve got this one’ and I was finishing things. A little bit similar to what I said at the start of the interview, that I’m doing now, just going through songs. But, yeah, it was the thought of going into a studio with brilliant, professional people, producers, engineers and the band and building the songs and that being your day job. I mean, that did beat the record shop job! It did! I was in my element! And I remember when the record company said ‘You’ve got to stop now’ [laughs], I was about fifteen or sixteen songs in, it was like turning into a double album! I loved it! I was so creative ... we all were, we were so creative and we were just enjoying it and I think that was brilliant and then we also knew that, you know, ‘In a Room’ was going to be the first single and the record company were really behind it. I kind of knew that ... I remember when I played the guys my first demo ... and it’s a terrible demo, I’ve got it still! ... of ‘Good Enough’ and I played it to them and said, like, ‘What do you think of this?’ And they were like, ‘Hhhhmmmm, well, it’s not really Dodgy, is it?’ But we were really into Soul music, really. Mathew especially, he’d got us all into more Soul music, because Mathew’s dad Peter was like a real record fan. You know, Sly and the Family Stone and just so much Soul music. Sam and Dave, everything, Northern Soul, especially. So, I’d taken a drum loop from a Lee Dorsey record that I’d just found and thought ‘oh, this is cool’. First ever time I’d sampled anything. I’d got a sampler at home, never even used it, and it all came about as an accident. I’d done other songs with drum machines with Dodgy, but this one was a Funky beat and Mathew liked that and we just went ‘Let’s work

it out!’ And, you know, it became a little bit of a diversion to Dodgy. And weirdly, it became the biggest hit and an AMAZING hit and I’m really proud of it. I mean, it’s not for everybody and some people go ‘Oh no!’, but I have my own reasons why that song is important to me and I still love it! A feel good song!

One of the things that has always struck me with Dodgy is, with songs such as the aforementioned ‘Staying Out for the Summer’ and ‘Good Enough’, that you know how to write a good, strong Pop song with memorable hook and a great chorus. As a songwriter, are these the elements that you are looking to incorporate from the outset and in your opinion, what makes a great song?

Yeah, in my opinion, what makes a good song is first of all, it’s got to have a message, or an integrity, in the lyric, but for me, as a songwriter, I think it’s really to do with melody. If you imagine, you start off and you go, ‘I’ve got this really good melody’ and then you get some words for it. Nowadays, I do it in sort of twenty/twenty-five second chunks and I got ‘that’s a really brilliant verse, but now, how am I going to get a chorus?’ And you’ve got to sort of work out how to get from this bit to this next bit. And that is a real challenge. And then you’ve got, ‘well, do I go into the verse, chorus, verse, chorus, middle-eight format or do you do something else?’ And, I mean, I’m sort of stuck in my ways a little bit and, you know, [laughs I do like the verse, chorus, verse, chorus, middle-eight, double chorus format! I do! I think there’s a real challenge in getting a song to do all those things in two-minutes fifty-eight. I think it’s an amazing challenge and I think, songwriting at that level, to get it all to fit in in that time, is absolutely an artform.

I seem to remember that there was due to be a US release of ‘Free Peace Suite’ in early 1997, but those plans were eventually shelved. As a band, was not making it over in the US

something that you found disappointing?

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I’d sort of done a little bit of travelling there in 1988 with a couple of friends and like, my dream was that I wanted to go to America, really. That was my dream, you know, get in the van and do the small gigs like we’d done in England and build it, but unfortunately, we just never had ... and, you know, the problem was, so many bands had tried and failed and I was certain that we would succeed, because we had harmonies, we had like the love of the West Coast, The Byrds and so on ... I think we had, like you say, songs that had big choruses and good verses and I thought we were just primed for it and to find out that we weren’t going to get released there was, in some ways, that was it, my bubble had burst really and I was just devastated. And I don’t think we really recovered from that. I think that we had a case ... because when you sign a record deal, you sign a worldwide deal and, you know, we had a case for restraint of trade, because they owned it, but they didn’t get it put out there, so we never got the support. And I think that then, they were showing the signs that they weren’t necessarily on our side. It just didn’t make sense and, you know, when things don’t make sense, you come to your own conclusions really and I think that it was definitely a hard one to take and I could see that our relationship with both the management and the record company was going to be coming to an end.

So that was really the beginning of the end for Dodgy the first time around, I guess?

Well, it had already happened on ‘Homegrown’, that we hadn’t got released in America on that one, and yet we had done extensive touring in Europe and then with ‘Free Peace Sweet’, which was a platinum-selling album, you’d think at least we’d get a release. There was, I mean, some options we had, but they were all very dodgy. Walter Yetnikoff, who was Michael Jackson’s manager, who

was Michael Jackson’s manager, who recently passed away actually [this August], he invited us over. He came over to Europe and said ‘I want to release this album’ and we were like, ‘’Well, it’s owned by Polygram’, or whoever it was at the time and he went ‘I don’t care, I’ll do it illegally’ and we were like, ‘Ooooh, this is a bit scary!’ [laughs]. But, you know, we would have been used as an argument between Walter and the head of Polygram, [laughs] which is not a great way to get released! So no, it was a real shame and I always felt that we had probably a better chance than a lot of other bands, because we did have that sound.

I agree with you, because I think that out of that stack of ‘90s bands, I always thought that Dodgy were the ones who were going to make it over in the US.

Yeah, and we have a lot of fans in America, it’s crazy! Even though we never got released, which is mad, we still got one of our songs on the Super Bowl advert! [Laughs]. I think it’s one of those funny things where we get loads of messages from people in America going, ‘When are you going to come over here?’ and we’ve been doing this for thirty-years! [Laughs]. It is really crazy, isn’t it? But that’s how it all works. I mean, I’d love to go ... or I would have done, because I think the America I knew when I went and travelled there in 1988 is a very different place now and I must admit, I’d be a bit more worried these day because I don’t think it’s the place it used to be.

Following Dodgy’s original break-up in 1998, was it 2007 that you reformed?

I’m not sure, I can’t remember! I would say 2008, because I think we tried to get back together in 2007 and it didn’t happen and then 2008 we did, and we did a few gigs then. Yeah, I can’t remember really! But, we’ve been together longer this second time around than the first time around! Yeah, 1990 to 1998 the first time and then a ten year gap and then 2008 to the current

day. And the thing is, it’s a really special thing. We’ve been through highs and lows as a band and we’ve been through fall-outs and fall-ins and everything, but at the moment, we’re really tight together, you know, and it’s a really nice feeling, actually. But, obviously, we haven’t got a record deal and there’s no talk about whether we’re going to do another album again, because let’s face it, I mean, we’re in an industry where product and all those things aren’t valuable. It’s really terrible at the moment, you know, to think that if we put an album out, is anyone going to buy it, or does anyone buy albums anymore?!

So, would you say that is the biggest difference this time around, compared to the first time?

[Laughs] Erm, yeah, there’s a lot of differences. We were young and we had less commitments and we used to get in the tour bus and, you know, it’s not like that anymore. We all drive in our own cars or vans to the gigs and stuff like that, normally. I must admit,

Dodgy in 2012

I enjoy it more now. I think there was a lot of pressure, going back to the pressure of the ‘90s, a lot of pressure, and I feel that twenty-odd years later, I feel more of the musician that I had have been then, you know, but I feel more comfortable in my own skin, comfortable with my own voice, comfortable with my own talents and the band’s talents and I’m more appreciative of the people around me now. I think, you know, at the time, it was very difficult and I think that, yeah, I don’t imagine I was the nicest person to be around all the time in the ‘90s, because of the pressure. But nowadays, I don’t have that pressure and I want everyone to feel great and I want the audiences to feel great, that’s the most important thing, especially after what everyone’s been through in the last two years, you know. So, when I do go out and do a gig, I want to be the best I can, you know.

The release of ‘Stand Upright in Cool Place’ was heralded by a tour on which, rather than following the growing trend of bands reforming

to play their classic hits, you played the new album in its entirety. We have seen you live both during your initial run and since you reformed, so I was wondering, how comfortable are you with the nostalgia aspect that I suppose must inevitably be there when you play live these days?

Yeah, like I said earlier, you can’t take that away from people. I mean, I’ve done gigs where I’ve not played ‘Good Enough’ and they don’t like it! [Laughs]. You have to give people what they want, you have to remember that, but also, you know, there’s a great David Bowie quote, which was ‘Don’t play to the gallery’, which means ‘do what you want’. When we did ‘Stand Upright in a Cool Place’, we recorded it in a studio that I had in a barn in a house in Malvern, a farmhouse, and it was like a really cool place and I recorded it and I just said to the guys, ‘Look, at this moment in time, no one wants another fucking Dodgy album, it’s just us’. And, you know, I’d written a lot of songs and gone ‘It’s just us that wants this’ and, you know, ‘This could be our last album’. We put a lot of effort in, a lot of time. I mean, I did put a lot of time into the both albums, you know, and to be fair, it’s exhaustive and, you know, especially when we’re doing it on a budget, but you want to put out the best quality music you can. And the songs, we still play one of the songs in the set all the time from either of the albums, because all of albums, we take a lot of pride in making sure that what we put out is 100%. Every single song you can listen to by Dodgy and, you know, they know we know what we’re doing. We don’t put out fillers, we never have done. We may be ‘dodgy’ by name, but not nature! That’s a good quote that, isn’t it? I’d never thought of that one before!

Obviously, Dodgy are still drawing huge audiences these days, but have there been any gigs that you would consider to be particular highlights from both the first time around and since you reformed and why?

You see, a lot of people ask that question, but, I mean, I always had

difficulties playing Glastonbury, you know, because of the pressure. You know, I don’t mind playing in front of big audiences. In fact, I really like it, you know, of course I do. You think ‘God, if you can get these people into this and get them clapping’, just that unity, people together, but Glastonbury was always really difficult, although I loved the event, I loved being a punter, I just found it very difficult personally, because you don’t get a soundcheck, you don’t get to look at your levels on stage and I mean all the boring technical stuff, you don’t get that chance, so someone just kicks you on the stage from backstage and you’re like ‘Oh, hello!’ [Laughs]. You know what I mean? And you’re like ‘I can’t hear my guitar! I can’t hear the drums! I don’t know what the fuck’s going on!’, sort of thing. So, I mean, all gigs to me are the same really. I mean, I like bigger gigs these days, because you haven’t got intense volume. Like, pub gigs with the band are very difficult, or club gigs. Some club gigs are great, but if it gets really loud these days, my ears start ringing, which is really bad! Yeah, I think most musicians get it after about thirty years, so you’ve got to be a bit more careful. But, going back to the question, I’ve played so many gigs and I must admit that we did get a name for being a festival band, because our music is so ... it’s not like it’s steeped in like distortion, or you’ve got to be into like Heavy Metal, Death Rock, or whatever. We’re a traditionalist cultural band, you know. We like bands like The Who, the Small Faces, The Beatles, The Clash, the Sex Pistols, you know, and onwards, and Crosby, Stills & Nash. We like that music, that was always our thing! And I think we were really proud of our culture, that was the thing, and when people started going ‘Britpop’, I was like going, ‘Hold on a second! What about all the bands from like there and Canada and, you know, Germany’. So, yeah, it’s a hard question to answer.

We noticed that you have some incredible looking gigs coming up in the near future too. For example, you have just been added to the

line-up for Fi.Fest in Berkshire on 9th July 2022, alongside Reef, The Hoosiers and many others. Are there any gigs that you are particularly looking forward to in the near future and have you perhaps made any plans for new music to coincide with next year’s dates?

I don’t know. You know what, I haven’t even looked at it! Well, I have looked at the calendar, we’re doing the calendar now. Yeah, do you know what? I think nowadays, because all the band live in different parts of the country, we don’t get as much chance ... I mean, we were together at SHINE [Festival] recently, which was really lovely ... we don’t get as much chance to be together and obviously, over the last eighteen months, we haven’t, because of lockdown. But, you know, I do think that when we get together, a magic happens, there’s a chemistry. There is and it’s bigger than all of us and I’m very privileged to be part of that and I mean that sincerely, I feel very privileged to be part of it. I may not have really realised that and recognised that back in the ‘90s, but these days, I really see it and I feel very honoured to be with these guys, and they’re lovely guys. So, yeah, that is always the plus side and when we’ve got each other’s back like that, nothing will stop us!

That is really lovely. It is really nice to hear that, because I suppose back in the day, as you were saying, there was all that pressure there.

There was just a lot of bullshit and yeah, at some points, it was horrible and you know, it felt like you were on your own. It felt like everyone was on their own and, you know, it was not a nice situation and that’s to do with business, the cut-throat world of business. Because business works that it’s always someone’s fault, there’s always someone to blame, and I hate that culture.

So, in a way, it actually sounds like you are having more fun this time around, which is lovely to hear.

Yeah, the only way we could top it is if we could actually find some way of doing another recording, you know, and getting back in the studio in the future. I would really like that. Now, I’ve done an album recently and I’ve been doing work with people who are socially excluded and experiencing homelessness. So, before the lockdown, we’d written loads of songs and then during the lockdown progressed, we had all these gaps and we’d go back in the studio with them and we got funding to do it and so we’ve done another album and we did a lot of it via the internet. We’d just send songs and then someone would send me a song and go ‘You’ve got to do bass on this’, ‘You’ve got to do the singing on it’ and I’d do that and send it back and I think that may be a way of Dodgy doing stuff. We’d go into a

studio for two weeks, or a week, record all the drums and then Andy goes home and does his guitar and I’ll stay here and do my acoustic and my vocals and put some other ideas down ... maybe we do it like that and then mix it all together. I don’t know, there’s got to be a way of doing it where it’s cost effective, because I couldn’t afford to do [it the regular way]. We have no budget for doing that anymore, you know.

I think everyone is in the same boat these days, aren’t they? But I think that is a really good way of doing it and I hope that you do.

I think so! I did mention it to the guys the other week, that I’d done this album with people who are experiencing homelessness. And I was absolutely amazed that we got someone to mix it and we did it remotely. We weren’t in a room going, ‘Can you get the drums a bit louder?’ and stuff like that, you know, and tapping him on the shoulder! Everyone had space to do it in their own time and do you know what? As a musician, listen, you get used to making mistakes! [Laughs]. I do a bassline, or something like that, and it sounds great, but it takes twenty times to get it! Still! But to get to greatness, you have to fail a lot! [Laughs].

Thank you for a wonderful interview, it has been really lovely to speak to you. We wish you all the best for the future.

‘The A&M Albums’ vinyl boxset and the vinyl reissue of the 1998 compilation ‘Ace A’s and Killer B’s’ are available now on Demon Records.

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