23 minute read
9. Avis Charles Interview
Emily Freund What is your job title and description? Avis Charles Okay. My job title is founder and CEO of Avis Charles Associates
Emily What is your role? What does Avis Charles Associates do? Avis Well, basically we do, it’s split into groups of what we do. So, part of it is academia and training. So, from the academic perspective, I do things like what I do for LCF, quite a few universities, basically across the country, where I come in as either an associate lecturer or as a guest speaker, from time to time. So that’s from the academic point of view. But I will be going into doing more lecturing. And because I do this on a continuous basis, and in the same way that technology has changed, academia has changed as well. So, I’m also at this point, from the academic point of view, doing postgraduate certificate. And the reason is because it teaches from point of view of pedagogy, and it just says a different approach to teaching, which I think, is something I want to be able to add, because I’ve always been a consultant coming in, which is totally different from academic coming in from the outside. The training aspect of it, is that I do a lot of work with people at the UN, the International Trade Center, which covers when developing countries, and government associations, or charities that may want to develop- I do mainly women in their countries. So, people at the UN asked me to put together a project to work with a group of women, and one, that is worth quoting. So, we were asked to put together a training program for a group of women from Papua New Guinea, Palestine, Peru, India, Mongolia, and Ethiopia. So usually, when we do that, we would never do it from the point of view of the way, the association itself would do it, we always want to bring in new knowledge. And the best way we believe to do that, is knowing about each of the countries that you are talking about and the way that women work. So, we would historically, look into the background of the country, the traditional crafts country, because usually it’s going to be around fashion. We’d look at the various spiritual values in it as well because we don’t want to offend anybody. And then we would ask for samples to be sent over and from those countries- the UN takes care of all of that. Then we would research and research and research and then find the best way to do this. So, for that project, by receiving the samples from the ladies, we would then ask about their work in surroundings; how many women they work with, and what they want to achieve. Usually, it’s the other way around. I’ve only said from my point of view, consultants may have already decided what they think the ladies need to achieve. On the other hand, there’s some people that will just because it’s a great payday as well. But we didn’t want to do that. We wanted to make sure we developed the women in a way that was suitable for them. Not a one size fits all because you come from Peru you shouldn’t be doing the same as the Mongolians just because you happen to use knit similarly. Or that’s what you think until you receive the samples and see what the huge difference is. But also, with the number of women that we’re working with, so we had two women from every country except Mongolia, where we had three. And so, looking at the way the Mongolians work, again, each of these women are as individual as we are as designers. So, they will have different ways of weaving. So, you’ve got three sets, three sets of women who’s knit and weave is totally different. And so, there’ll be things that you haven’t you haven’t seen before, because they’re not selling those things. Here in the store, that fabric, or anything like that. And it brings up a lot of surprises about countries that you didn’t know. So that’s just from the samples. But we also put together our own questionnaire as opposed to the UN’s questionnaire because obviously, they must tick their boxes accordingly. But we push that we would write our own questionnaire for the ladies, that pertains to them. How many women do you work with what surroundings at work in, because all that affects how you’re going to do things; will also affect the lead time once you start making things. So, the important thing is, is your family involved in the business, how long does it take to get to the nearest port, all those things. From that you will get an understanding of the fact that not all the women are selling out of the country than in the country. So, they are usually able to drive to wherever they need to go, if that’s the case, or find a way to get it there. So, if they ever wanted to export, which is what the UN wanted them to do, you can’t do that if you don’t even understand what DHL or FedEx or whatever is relevant in your country. There’s no point in learning new ways and what they’re doing in the West, if you have not investigated how you can transport anyone. So that’s a huge thing. And then I noted, again, through our research that when most designers go into this country or countries, they will work with the women to do something that’s suitable for them through their business. If you decide to move on and not stick with one country, because [for example] there’s been a disaster in a part of Vietnam, and you want to be able to help them, so you may pick up and go there. Instead, we just left a whole group of women no work, because they now have no idea how to sell to another designer or sell to the west. So as much as they’ve made money during that time, they haven’t been able to extend it. So, we developed three income streams for the women that we worked for. The first income stream was basically doing exactly what designers have done in the first place. But we’ve now explained to them how they put together a look book if that was the case, when a designer said to them, what do you make? Or what can we help you with? So that was the simplest one. The next income stream was working closely with a designer on new designs where you’re giving them your input. And nobody had done that before. And coming from LCF I thought let’s approach LCF and if they would do it. And at the time a friend of mine was running London, New York (LDNY). And that was to get designers in New York and designers in London, all students to create a collection based around those two places, and any aspect of it. So, I thought rather than getting a whole load of students that you wouldn’t be able to connect properly, create a competition. And then we narrowed that down just to final year students in London College of Fashion, and at Parsons School of Design. So then during that
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competition, we had to break it all down. When it came to the last bit to choose six students, we then made the decision that the students would have to design a collection that was based on 60% artisan’s work. We would then sit with them go through what the artisans have done, make PowerPoints and everything, and then pass the samples around because you can’t make something or design something in billon. If you’ve just seen a picture, and you haven’t felt it. And as creatives we need to touch what we do that every time we design something with our fabrics. The third income stream was for each of the artisans to earn to design their own capsule collections. So, I treated them in a way that I would for any designer. And we sat with them to then find out what was in their heads, which was quite amazing. Because you then realize these women are no different from us. So, they come up with some great ideas. And the UN said that they were put on this fashion show, the first step of fashion show at the United Nations head office in New York. So that meant we have a collection of all the artisans’ clothes, a collection of the winning designers within students’ clothes because we did first second third, and a winning collection of both universities were involved in that. Well, I think for any student who must be shown in New York, you haven’t paid for it, because we also made sure that the fabrics and everything that were given to them was already covered. from the student perspective, working with the artisans meant that their specification sheets, their illustrations, everything had to be perfect. But what it also did, it allowed the artisans to start working with a medium that they hadn’t worked with before. And so, what that has gone on to do is that the artisans still do their own collections. And one artisan that we have in India, we linked her with Goldman Sachs. She does four franchises of her business in India, which is impressive. When my daughter and I were in India, and I called her [personal assistant] answered. So not only is she able to employ a lot more people. The ladies from Mongolia, I went to afternoon tea with some friends and a few ladies there that I didn’t know. And one of them was wearing one of our artisan sweaters. Obviously, I recognize a knit. And she said over the year she’d bought six because they are so beautiful. We’ve had artisans and speaking on TedTalks, it’s just incredible. One thing that is special is the fact that they’re all still in business and the number of women that they’ve managed to employ which also led to the Mongolians going to Ethiopia: because Ethiopians and Mongolians both weave fabric and spin yarn. So that worked out well. So that’s the training aspect of it. So, I do a lot of that all over the place. When working with designers, it’s really going into find what the gaps in the market are. And when you have an outsider to do that, they see it from a different perspective from you, because of the different elements and the ways that I’m working. So, I bring that aspect to it as well but as opposed to just being the PR [public relations] person. None of those I would do, I don’t do. But I know how I’d perceive it as a consumer from the outside. And then as well as that I’m trained in couture. So, to know how something should fit perfectly, but also what it’s going to do, before you start giving it to your seamstresses or anything, the weight of the fusing, because I’ve done it for so long, I’ve been in this business now almost 50 years, and always at the top. So that’s the way that I work with designers. So those are the three aspects of what the company does.
Emily What did you do when you worked with Peruvian artisans and brands, and what were the challenges? Avis The Peruvian artisans are incredible. Again, you just assume they’re doing alpaca in the way that they do knitting. That’s what you think, until when you meet them, and how different their work can be. And the two that we worked with, it was just so different, because one of them would do her way, that she knitted or how thin she got managed to get the yarn, the alpaca, is that when she then knitted it, by hand, by the way, it looked like a piece of lace. And I’ve never seen that before. When she did her own capsule collection, she had some of that, but she also had this heavy knit, it was amazing. We also want to show what the rest of the world their work. Because when you’re working in something, if you’re not able to get the kind of communication that we can get, whether it’s a magazine or whatever. You don’t know how special your start with your country is first away from all the political upsets. And she had, she had created over 100 different stitches how to do things. I mean, her stuff was extraordinary. And then for [the other artisan] totally different. Where you had a knit, then you had all this embroidery on the top that virtually told its own story in lots of bright colors. But because we’ve done all this research beforehand, we had an idea of what each thing was because that was more cultural than what [the first Peruvian artisan] was doing, but fabulous.
Emily What were some of the boundaries that artisans face when expanding into new markets? Avis I think because there’s perceptions of that country. And certainly, for Peru, it’s as if all they’re going to be doing is knits. So, nobody looks at any of the creativity, except obviously the Peruvians because they’re there. So, when we’re talking about exporting from Peru to another country, you have to then take into consideration chances are, it’s going to take two to three weeks longer, because customs are going hold it in Peru, and hold it everywhere else. Similarly, Palestinian things got to us in three days, the Peruvians three weeks. And they’re small samples. And when we did the things for the show, it took even longer, because the box was bigger. And I’ve just finished working on a collection with a Colombian designer, but he’s working with Peruvian fabrics, the Alpaca and everything. And his stuff was stuck in customs for over a month [in Colombia]. And first, it took a long time to crack through but when it got here. It was in customs for all that time. And Andy had to pay a lot of money that he wasn’t supposed to pay. But it was just an absolute nightmare. This stuff arrived three days before the show. So [he] got all these models and everything else. And to me, that’s completely
unfair. That took three days before the show, things arrived on Wednesday. And what’s so sad about that was that he had direct contact to the ambassador of Peru, in this country and the British ambassador in Peru, and he had the same for Colombia as well, just in case they could speak to each other, and they couldn’t ship it. And that’s when you know you’ve got an issue. Then when they opened the packages, [customs] stole some stuff. And of course, you haven’t got the time to reknit it, you couldn’t even go and buy alpaca fabric to then remake the outfit. So, the people that suffer are the women that put in all that work.
Emily How did you facilitate this expansion, knowing these boundaries? Avis Because I think you have to keep believing that it’s going to work. I already knew about the delays. So obviously that I would have told him that straight away, so everything was ready earlier, even though I would have liked it to be a lot earlier, nobody knew it was going to take that long to get through customs. And when they did send it, they send things bit by bit. There were three things that came the day before the show, but I think what was really upsetting for him is the items that got through were all Alpaca fabric, any of the things that were hand knitted by the ladies or crocheted were the things that went missing.
Emily Why do you think that they weren’t sent to you? If they were handmade? Avis I think they went missing because knowing what Peruvian work looks like, it’s so beautiful. If you’ve seen it before, and it’s so unusual, and they’re one that they’re one offs. You and I may not steal it, but them guys at customs. There were things in the goodie bag that they’d stolen; 50% of it. But anything that went missing was anything that had a lot of handwork on it from these artisans that are outside of Lima. And that’s heartbreaking because people enjoyed the show. But it was supposed to be about these [artisans] and they’ve lost out on that because if you can’t show it- as much as you’re talking about why you’re doing it and everything, we’ve seen Alpaca in fabric so no big deal- then the people that were invited were all top notch. And this is perception of a country and usually a country you’ve never been to, only about what you’ve read. So, you have no knowledge of the importance of [the fashion culture]. And don’t think [the items] dropped out the package. You’ve just deprived a whole set of artisans, as they’re usually women, who would have been able to grow their work, so they can support their families. Just I just it was gut wrenching.
Emily What kind of sustainable attributes did you consider when discussing this expansion for the Peruvian artisans? Avis I always consider that and everything that they do sustainable anyway. I can speak about the ones that I work with. So, I actually find this certainly more sustainable than what we are. I think we in the West are very good at telling the story of sustainability, run into a country and get something made. And then as I said at the beginning, leaving when it gets a bit hot. And I don’t think that’s time when you should leave. I think you should be there. I think also, we in the West are not aware or maybe don’t want to be aware of the fact that we’ve created the ship. It didn’t happen by accident, because any of the countries that we have been to; my daughter and I travel all over the place, like Myanmar. We’re complaining about the officials ruling the countries, but people in Myanmar don’t actually own anything, the military do. But when we turn around and say, ‘I’m not buying anything from Myanmar because the way the military treat the people, or the way that people are treated’, it’s easy for us to say that while we’re polluting, but we can easily switch on our lights, we can get online to Amazon, and order a pair of black sheer tights. And when you go to somebody else’s country, and you see what they are being deprived of, blew our mind. In one of the villages that we went to, that was all on water, all the houses were on stilts. Everybody you went past had a huge bag, and they would put every tin in it; talk about dissecting all your waste. You just thought, ‘Oh my God’, there’s all that rubbish. And the other thing that that whole village had was solar panels. Every house in London doesn’t have a solar panel. You’ve made solar panels so expensive that nobody can afford to do it anyway. So, all these great ideas you’re coming up with, you don’t put money into that. Yet, you want to turn around and complain that climate change is somebody else’s country. We don’t get to see the damage done to people’s livelihoods. The fact that we were exporting our waste to other countries, how on earth did you think it was going to be disposed of, if you dispose them here? Remember these are developing countries, so you’re bribing them with money to take your problem away, and then you punish them for taking your problem away, when they’ve got a bigger problem anyway. And that’s not just Barbados, it’s Thailand, it’s Indonesia, everywhere we’ve [travelled to], we’ve come across this, which then means you’re taking away how they sustain themselves without the fact that you’re messing up the planet completely. One of my best friends is head of climate change and biodiversity, she knows exactly what’s going on, and she does this the UN. So, she knows exactly what’s going on and what it does to the world. So, we can talk sustainability and climate change until we are blue in the face. Unless it’s affecting you and if it wasn’t for the fact, it started affecting the West; Australia with its wildfires going on forever, Europe’s wildfires, as well as flooding. So, I don’t think the West is in the position to say anything about sustainability. And I think for yourself if you’re going to, at any stage, be working with Peruvians- when working with anybody really- you must do what is right for your business. I think y’all as the young people can make people move. Because the fashion industry is for me is one of the greatest industries in the world, but some of the biggest polluters, but when something must be done, we are usually the ones that do it. So, you’ve repurposed denim in so many ways, we invented infrastructure, not just structure,
machinery, and everything else that can repurpose it in ways. Some are saying ‘bring back your clothes that are old and we’ll find something else to do with it.’ I’m talking about Stella McCartney here; I’m talking about as individual designers and lots of young designers working towards that. And the only way there’s going to be any change is through you guys. So, I think whilst we’re talking about sustainability, and we’re not going to take anything from China, if it’s been made by the Uyghur people that are in what they’ve called concentration camps, I don’t think the West is in the position to say absolutely anything about any of them. The reason why the Chinese output is that way is because you keep sending everything there get made, because it’s cheaper. So don’t come preach to us about sustainability, you’re the ones that won’t do the work in your own country. You’re not recognizing the wealth of what this country has because you’re the ones that exported out. So don’t be screaming other countries, human rights, when your level of human rights is shipped across the country, it was built on slaves. You can’t talk about people’s human rights when you colonize India, and then portray it as being practically the pits of the earth; ‘we’ve got to come here and teach them how to do things.’ And I think that rolls into sustainability; and then us wanting clothes, faster, cheaper, yesterday. That is doing more harm. Companies like Boohoo, when you found out that they were paying people four pounds an hour, you allow them to go out and do their own investigation when they’re still making decisions. So that’s my opinion on sustainability, the word. Because the places that do work sustainably, which I’ve seen in Ethiopia, in Myanmar and all the other places that we go to; the ones that I’m not doing it. It’s the worst. I just think that we’re just behaving like hypocrites.
Emily What’s one piece of advice, you would give a small sustainable brand trying to expand into the UK luxury market? Avis Be careful how you use the word sustainable. I would tell the brand ‘Do not say it’s 100% sustainable’ because you can’t issue thread to sew something up to be sustainable. I think that we need to work on the design and make the design special because I think you can start with a sustainable cotton, but because you’re trying to save every scrap, you end up with a square. And at the end of the day, people want to wear clothes, number one to their body, but also so that they feel and look beautiful as well. So, if you are going to be a sustainable brand, even if you say the alpaca is all sustainable, then you are able to show why it is because of the way it’s grown or the people that work on it. Include the people because sustainability doesn’t come on its own. I think that there are aspects of what you can say is sustainable. But I want to be able to include the people that are involved in it. I think that shows a level of caring. And I think that’s when we’re talking about sustainability in the story that normally goes with it, is that it’s because we care about the planet, because we care about people. But you’ll never see the images of the people. I’m talking about looking at their hands and the way they work on things and whatever. Nothing sells more than when somebody feels they’re a part of the story that I’ve just bought. You’re buying a product, but you’re also buying whatever this company is doing, as well. That’s the reason why almost every luxury brand is named after the family. Because you get the feeling that they’ve sat there, come up with these designs practically spend it on their own, for you to be a part of the world that they’ve attained and their creative bubble. But that creative bubble must just have words of this ‘has been made in Peru by female artisans,’ it’s got to be more than that. So, you’re telling a really good story, and that’s what people want.
Emily Okay, those are all my questions. Thank you so much, this was so insightful. I love Peruvian artisan work. I went there a couple of years ago, in 2017, and I saw how the Indigenous women dyed and spun their yarn and it was super cool. I even wrote my personal statement to get into LCF about my trip to Peru.
Information and Consent Form for Interview Participants
Title of the report:
Interviewee name and contact details: Hosting Institution:
Introducing Peruvian Brand, MOZH MOZH, to the UK Luxury Market Avis Charles avis@avisgcharles.com University of the Arts – London College of Fashion
Background and Rationale
My business report discusses a plan to introduce Peruvian born brand, MOZH MOZH, into the UK market through a collaboration with MatchesFashion. Avis Charles Associates has worked with a plethora of luxury brands, that use their local culture & history in garment creation and collaborated with the United Nations to bring these brands into the forefront of a new luxury industry.
Aim of this research
As the CEO of Avis Charles Associates, this interviewee will give me primary insight into the practices & strategies of bringing a luxury brand from an emerging market into the UK.
FAQ
How much time will be involved?
Approximately 20-30 minutes
How will the data and information collected be used?
I will use it in my business report as primary research into the business strategies of pitching a brand to a new market
Will the outcomes of the research be published?
They will informally be published to TurnItIn
Will my name or the name of my company appear in the research report?
Yes
Consent
“I have read the Information Sheet and have had the details of the study explained to me. My questions have been answered to my satisfaction, and I understand that I may ask further questions at any time. I understand I have the right to withdraw from the study at any time and to decline to answer any particular questions. I agree to provide information to the researcher on the understanding that my name will not be used without my permission. (The information will be used only for this research and publications arising from this research project.)
I agree/do not agree to the interview being taped. My name can be mentioned in this research study The name of the organisation I work for can be mentioned in this research study
Agree Not Agree
Yes
Yes
Yes
I understand that I have the right to ask for the audio/video tape to be turned off at any time during the interview. I agree to participate in this study under the conditions set out in the Information Sheet.
Name: Avis Charles
Signed: Avis G Charles
