IGOR TULEYA

A CONVERSATION WITH POLISH AND EUROPEAN JUDGE
IGOR TULEYA
BY JOHN MORIJNIgor Tuleya, a judge at the Warsaw District Court, has become one of Poland’s and Europe’s bestknown judges. He has been harassed and put under tremendous pressure by the Polish government for several years. is led to his disciplinary suspension by the now defunct Disciplinary Chamber of the Polish Supreme Court, which both the European Court of Human Rights (2) and the Court of Justice of the European Union (3) have declared did not constitute an independent and impartial court established by law – making any of its pronouncements null and void. Recently Igor Tuleya was reinstated. Tuleya is a member of IUSTITIA, the largest association of Polish judges He remains active and vocal forruleoflawprotection.
On 6 July 2023 Tuleya and his lawyers from the NGO (Free Courts), won a case Wolne Sądy brought before the European Court of Human Rights (4), which found violations of Articles 6(1), 8 and 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) in regard to the Polish disciplinary regime. On 13 July 2023, the Grand Chamber of the CourtofJusticeoftheEUalsoprovidedastronglyrule of law protective reply to preliminary questions Judge Tuleya had put before it (5) Tuleya had submi ed the questions minutes a er the Disciplinary Chamber of the Polish Supreme Court pronounced his suspension. We talked to him on 14 July 2023, the daya erthesecondjudgment

1.JohnMorijnisprofessorinlawandpoliticsofinternationalrelationsattheUniversityofGroningenFacultyofLaw IgorTuleyaisajudgeinthecriminallawsection oftheWarsawDistrictCourt.
2. ,Reczkowiczv Poland(application no 43447/19,CE:ECHR:2021:0722JUD004344719).
JudgmentoftheECtHR of22July2021
3. , A K (Independence of the Disciplinary Chamber of the Supreme Court) (Joined Cases C-585/18, Judgment of the Court of Justice of 19 November 2019 C-624/18 and C-625/18, EU:C:2019:982) and , Commission v. Poland (Disciplinary Regime for Judges), Judgment of the Court of Justice of 15 July 2021 C-791/19,EU:C:2021:596.
4. ,Tuleyav Poland(applicationsnos 21181/19and51751/20,CE:ECHR:2023:0706JUD002118119
JudgmentoftheECtHR of6July2023
5. , YP and others (li ing of immunity and suspension of judge), (Joined Cases C-615/20 and C-671/20, Judgment of the Court of Justice of 13 July 2023 EU:C:2023:562.
John Morijn (JM): Speaking to you today is a special pleasure, Igor. I think you are the rst ever national judge to have rulings in their favour within the same week by the two highest European courts. is is not a regular interview. I am not a journalist– we met several times, and you did me the honour of writing the preface to my inaugural lecture last year. Let us have a chat about your two cases –not about the techniquebutaboutthecontext.Aboutwhatdrivesyouandwhatyou andotherPolishjudgesdotogetintouchwithPolishcitizens.And, nally,aboutcross-bordersolidarityindefendingtheruleoflaw.
Wherewereyouwhenyouheardabouttheverdictsinyourtwocases?
IgorTuleya(IT): Yesterday I was working as a judge. In between hearings congratulatory text messages started coming in e same happened with the judgment of the European Court of Human Rights. e outcome of both were, of course, a mystery to me, so I was nervous. Especially about the judgment of the Court of Justice. Scholars and authorities had no doubts about what rulings might come, but I was particularly anxious because I had asked a preliminary question once in 2018 and then the Luxembourg Court refused to answer, saying my concerns were hypothetical (6). Of course, this time the question was absolutely not hypothetical. You all were eyewitnesses as I asked these questions, because it was lmed for the documentary as the Supreme Court’s Discipli- Judges Under Pressure naryChamberwasstillinitshearingwhenIsentthem.
JM:InthedocumentaryyoumentionaboutreferringquestionstoLuxembourg that you did so ‘because it is the last thing I can do’? Did youhaveanyconcreteexpectations?

IT: It seems to me that Polish citizens and lawyers, in this initial phase of the Rule of Law crisis in Poland, had a sense of loneliness and oblivion before the European institutions. We had tremendous support from Europeans, for example from the Dutch, while the European institutions were turning away from us. I had the impression that it was difficult for us to convince EU institutions that Poles feel European, that Poland is part of Europe and Polish courts are European courts. I even o en repeated this sentence: just as in 1939 Europe didn't want to die for Gdansk, so now in 2020noonewilldieforthePolishRuleofLaw.
Polish citizens and lawyers, in this initial phase of the Rule of Law crisis in Poland, had a sense of loneliness and oblivion before the European institutions

We hoped that other European judges would someday also be able to use these rulings we were initiating, that this Polish example could also be some kind of memento, a warning to other European countries
JM: Can you explain what brought you to go to both Strasbourg and Luxembourg? Was the motivation the same for bothcases?
IT: Polish judges have been ling many complaints to Strasbourg and preliminary questions to Luxembourg ey have been trying to show internationally how this Polish situation is, how the Rule of Law is being destroyed. So, the motivation was similar. Especially since our complaints to the Strasbourg or preliminaryquestionsarequitesimilar