Interview: Secretary Chuck Hagel, U.S. Secretary of Defense 2013-2015

INTERVIEW: SECRETARY CHUCK HAGEL U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE 2013-2015

By Chuck Oldham

Chuck Hagel served as the 24th Secretary of Defense from February 2013 to February 2015. During his tenure, he directed significant steps to modernize America’s partnerships and alliances, advance the rebalance in Asia-Pacific, bolster support for European allies, and enhance defense cooperation in the Middle East while overseeing the end of America’s combat mission in Afghanistan. In addition, he led major initiatives for service members and their families, including increasing resources for suicide prevention, combating sexual assault, and accounting for missing personnel. Further, Hagel improved partnerships with the Department of Veterans Affairs, to include health record interoperability, service treatment record transferability, and continuity of mental health services and support. Hagel launched the Defense Innovation Initiative to better prepare the Pentagon for future threats, and enacted comprehensive reforms to the nuclear enterprise and Military Health System. He is the only Vietnam veteran and the first enlisted combat veteran to serve as Secretary of Defense.

Hagel served two terms in the U.S. Senate (1997-2009) representing the state of Nebraska. He was a senior member of the Senate Foreign Relations; Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs; and Intelligence committees. He chaired the Foreign Relations International Economic Policy, Export and Trade Promotion Subcommittee; and the Banking Committee’s International Trade and Finance and Securities subcommittees. Hagel also served as the chairman of the Congressional-Executive Commission on China and the Senate Climate Change Observer Group.

Previously, Hagel was a distinguished professor at Georgetown University, co-chairman of the President’s Intelligence Advisory Board, chairman of the Atlantic Council, chairman of the United States of America Vietnam War Commemoration Advisory Committee, and co-chairman of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund Corporate Council. He served as a member of the Secretary of Defense’s Policy Board, Secretary of Energy’s Blue Ribbon Commission on the Future of Nuclear Power, the Public Broadcasting Service (PBS) board of directors and Systemic Risk Council; as a senior advisor to Gallup; and on the Advisory Boards of Corsair Capital, Deutsche Bank America, M.I.C. Industries, Bread for the World, Bonnie J. Addario Lung Cancer Foundation, Center for the Study of the Presidency, Dwight D. Eisenhower Memorial Commission, George C. Marshall Foundation, Georgetown’s Institute for the Study of Diplomacy, Global Strategy Forum, Global Zero, Hamilton Project, Initiative for Global Development, Lung Cancer Alliance, International Center for the Study of Radicalization and Political Violence, National Bureau of Asian Research’s Next Generation Leadership Board, Ploughshares Fund, U.S. Global Leadership Coalition, U.S. Institute of Peace Middle East Senior Working Group, U.S. Middle East Project, America Abroad Media, American Security Project, and The Washington Center.

Prior to his election to the U.S. Senate, Hagel was president of McCarthy & Company, an investment banking firm in Omaha, Nebraska. In the mid-1980s, Hagel co-founded VANGUARD Cellular Systems, Inc., a publicly traded corporation. He was president and CEO of the World USO, Private Sector Council (PSC), and chief operating officer of the 1990 Economic Summit of Industrialized Nations (G-7 Summit). Hagel also served as deputy administrator of the Veterans Administration under President Ronald Reagan and deputy commissioner general of the 1982 World’s Fair.

Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel conducts a press briefing at the Pentagon, Jan. 22, 2015.

DOD Photo by Casper Manlangit

He is the author of the book, America: Our Next Chapter and was the subject of a 2006 book by Charlyne Berens entitled, Chuck Hagel: Moving Forward.

A graduate of the University of Nebraska at Omaha, Hagel and his wife, Lilibet, have a daughter (Allyn) and son (Ziller).

The Pentagon: 75 Years: What was your most striking impression, or most striking first impression, of the Pentagon?

Secretary Chuck Hagel: The people. I’ve always believed any institution is only as good as its people. And the quality, commitment of the people that I saw that first day that I was at the

Pentagon was pretty striking. I knew they were first-rate professionals and very good people and committed citizens. But until you really see them in action and see the sacrifices they make and how much they care about the country, you really don’t realize it. So, it was the people.

How do you think foreign dignitaries felt as far as when they saw the Pentagon, what their impressions were?

I think every one of them was quite taken, especially those who came to the Pentagon for the first time. It’s an iconic, historic, classical building that everyone in the world knows about. And it is such a magnificent structure that represents so much history and power of the United States that I think every leader who comes to the Pentagon for the first time is really awed by it. I saw it as I entertained many, many heads of state and ministers of defense and foreign ministers and prime ministers, monarchs. And it was always the same reaction.

Were there any particular places for you in the building that you drew inspiration or assurance from?

Well, the Pentagon is so large. I mean, it’s a city, truly, in every way. And it is so big I never got to see all of it. I mean, I saw most of it. But I think the areas that were always sacred really were the corridors that reflected the wars that the United States participated in. During my time we were putting together a Vietnam War corridor for the first time. And then after I left, they brought me back to help dedicate it. But each of those corridors – World War I, World War II, I mean you can go right back to the Civil War – represent not only an era in our history but what our country was going through, what our soldiers and sailors and Marines and airmen had to deal with, the challenges, the quality of leadership, the quality of commitment. When you spend any time in those corridors, you really start to understand this country, and it was always for me one of those sacred places in the Pentagon that I always enjoyed going to. I always learned something. It was something new that I saw every time I was in one of those corridors.

How do you think your experiences as a soldier informed your service as a senator and especially as secretary of defense?

Well, there wasn’t a decision I made as secretary of defense or a vote really I cast on any aspect of national security when I was in the Senate that did not include my reviewing of my experience in Vietnam, first of what our men and women who fought that war had to go through. Was it a wise commitment of our blood and treasure? And you take it all the way through that experience and I think … each of us is shaped by our experiences in life. And you bring those experiences to whatever job or jobs you have, certainly, that experience that I had with my brother side by side in 1968, which was the worst year in Vietnam. We sent 16,000 dead Americans home that year, which is unfathomable today. I mean, America wouldn’t put up with that today. But every one of those experiences I had in those 12 months that I was there through ’68 applied in some way to decisions I made, in thinking through decisions I had to make, certainly as secretary of defense, but in many cases in the Senate as well. And I remember the debates on Iraq that went on and on and some of the debates on Afghanistan. Sure, those were very important experience dimensions for me to call back on as I thought through all of that and we debated these issues, as they need to be in many ways debated in the Congress because the Congress. So, yes, my experience in Vietnam I hope helped me. It certainly informed me, and I hope made me a better senator and a better secretary of defense.

Now that we have a totally professional military and there is no draft anymore, do you think in some way we may have lost something through so many people not having that common experience?

U.S. Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel speaks to troops assigned to the 1/101st Air Assault in Jalalabad, Afghanistan, March 9, 2013. Hagel traveled to Afghanistan on his first trip as the 24th secretary of defense to visit U.S. troops, NATO leaders, and Afghan counterparts.

DOD Photo by Erin A. Kirk-Cumo

Well, I think there is a loss in that regard. I have been a strong supporter of an all-volunteer force from the beginning, from when it first was instituted in the early seventies, because the sophistication of our military today and even going back to the seventies and through those decades – it’s so different from the time of when we had the draft. So, I think we need truly professional soldiers and sailors and airmen and Coast Guardsmen and Marines. I don’t think there is any question about that. But have we lost something? I think so. When you look at the reality that we today have less than 1 percent of our population that is in our armed forces, it disconnects from civilians in many ways. It disconnects from everyday Americans that kind of sacrifice and that kind of service. It’s nobody’s fault. It’s an attitude that just starts to dominate – “Well, let someone else do it; it’s too bad they’re in Afghanistan or Iraq or Syria or wherever they are, but they wanted to be; they volunteered for it, so that’s not my problem” kind of an attitude. I don’t think Americans mean that to be cavalier. But that’s just the way it is.

U.S. Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel speaks to troops assigned to the 1/101st Air Assault in Jalalabad, Afghanistan, March 9, 2013. Hagel traveled to Afghanistan on his first trip as the 24th secretary of defense to visit U.S. troops, NATO leaders, and Afghan counterparts.

U.S. Air Force Photo by Staff Sgt. Alexandra M. Boutte

So, what happens is, like in Iraq and Afghanistan, for the first time in the history of America, we fought two wars and still are there, and in fact in more places with an all-volunteer force. And what that means on the downside for an all-volunteer force is the same people keep going back and back and back. And that takes a huge toll on the individuals, certainly on their families, on the institution, on the culture, on everything. So, there is a trade-off here. There is a downside, I think, to this. But at the same time, I do think the professionalism of our armed forces today is second-tonone. No force structure in the world has ever been as professional nor is any today as good as ours that we have. But it does separate a sense of service and commitment and some sacrifice from the rest of America.

What did you consider the most challenging aspect of your job when you were secretary of defense?

I was asked more than once after I left the Pentagon after two years as secretary of defense what was it like to run the largest institution in the world. And I would give the same answer. I would chuckle and say, “Oh, I didn’t run anything.” I was the secretary of defense. I had responsibility for everything within the Department of Defense. But you’ve got to understand that the Department of Defense is a mammoth empire that consists of smaller empires within it. Each of the services is an empire. Your civilian workforce is an empire. Your political leadership is an empire. The media is an empire. The military industrial complex is an empire. The Congress that has oversight over you is a huge dimension of this. The White House, because we report to the commander in chief, is the ultimate empire. So, my point is as secretary of defense you’ve got to be dealing with all of these different factures and factions and assuring that everyone is moving in the right direction. That means you listen to everybody. That means you include everybody. That means you’ve got to have absolute transparency – I mean, where you can – in decision-making, but most importantly, everyone has to have a voice at the table before the decision is made.

Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel hosts a round table meeting with defense ministers from the Association of South East Asian Nations (ASEAN) in Honolulu, Hawaii, April 2, 2014. Hagel also visited military bases around Honolulu showcasing the aid and support the United States could offer to the ASEAN nations.

U.S. Department of Defense Photo by Erin A. Kirk-Cuomo

So, it’s a huge management job. Now, I know each secretary of defense comes at it a little differently. I know some delegate all that to their deputy secretary of defense. Well, you can do, I think, a certain amount of that up to a point. But in the end, it’s the secretary of defense who has to sign everything and who is ultimately responsible for everything. So I always found that as one of the most challenging parts of the job, but I liked it. I welcomed it. I just am built that way. I like knowing what’s going on. And I think the big challenge is always for a secretary of defense to know as much of what’s going on as you possibly can, because you’ve got to be informed enough to make some really good decisions and recommendations to the president on policy and other things. And the way I’ve described it is, you have to have real peripheral vision. Yes, you have to stay concentrated and focused on the big issues and what’s ahead of you and what you’ve got coming, but you’ve got to really have an understanding of what’s going on around you and be aware of that. And the last point I would make is always recognize that there will be new developments, new events, new challenges and unknowns coming every 24 hours. So always leave a little time in your capacity, in your capability, because you’ve only got so many hours. You’ve only got so much energy. As you manage that, keep a little margin for what you don’t know is coming but is going to come. And many times, those require emergency kind of focuses. So, I think all those things were the challenges. It wasn’t one thing. It was everything. But I liked the challenge. I thought that was all the good part of the job that I liked.

And the last part of that and always the biggest part is working with the other people, the team building – building a really good team and having an opportunity to work with really good people to meet those big challenges. You don’t do it on your own. That’s my whole point – is saying the secretary of defense doesn’t run anything by himself; you do it with your teams, with the service chiefs, and with the chairman of joint chiefs, and you do it with everybody. That is the way you can lead. It’s a leadership position which must include some management. It must include all the other dimensions of leadership. But listening is a primary part of that.

Was there anything that kept you up at night while you were serving as secretary?

Well, if I took that attitude, I’d never get to sleep. I mean, I knew parts of the world were coming apart. And you also know there is a lot you don’t know. And that’s a big part of the job too – recognizing that you’ll never know enough. You will never know it all. But you try to know enough about enough things so that you don’t really stumble on the big things. So, I tried to find some time to kind of block a lot of the specifics out, so I could think about it in a more free way, and sleep, because you can take that to bed with you or anywhere with you and it will consume you. And you cannot let that job consume you. Like any big job, it can consume you. So, you’ve got to really balance yourself so that you aren’t kept up at night. Now, if you’ve got an emergency or something that is going to keep you up – which we had those, everybody does – yeah, I mean that keeps you up at night, on what are we going to do and how and so on and so on. But you try to balance your capabilities and your time and your energy so that these things don’t keep you up at night.

How much do you think the security environment has changed since you were secretary of defense versus today?

Well, I think you’ve got to realize that the security environment is constantly changing. It literally is changing every 24 hours. Cyber has changed the rules. I mean, cyber has changed everything. And I think today, cyber probably represents the most significant overall threat to the United States in every way [more] than any one thing. Yes, a nuclear exchange is a threat, of course, biochemical weapons, pandemic health, so on – all threats, absolutely, of course. But it’s cyber that can paralyze a nation, paralyze power grids, paralyze computers, paralyze energy sources, paralyze banking services, financial services. You don’t know when it’s coming. Many times you’re not sure exactly where it’s coming from, and how you are going to respond to it. Technology always changes everything – when the tank was first produced, and then the first fighter plane was produced, and so on, and so on. So, you’ve got to try to anticipate and stay ahead as much as you can of the unknown, of what you think is coming. And you know new things are coming. Every time you’ve got some dynamic figured out, something comes along that will shift it, will change it. The world is far more competitive, more interconnected today, which has changed everything. We no longer are just protected by two vast oceans on the east and west coast and two pretty secure borders. Historically that’s been the case. We lost that a long, long time ago. So, you’ve got to rely on alliances, intelligent sharing, economics, trade. All of these things become factors now in our security, because all are connected to our security. Whether it is financial security or whether it is stability or whether it is trade, it doesn’t make any difference. Now the world is so much more interconnected and complicated that it affects our security systems and the integration of those systems. So yes, it’s changed. It will continue to change. And it will evolve and then change and change more. Essentially that’s the history of man, and security and stability are bedrocks or foundations for the success of mankind.

U.S. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, left, meets with Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif in Islamabad, Dec. 9, 2013.

U.S. Department of Defense Photo by Erin A. Kirk-Cuomo

Going back to the building, I wondered if there is anything that ever made you think, “Boy, they don’t build them like that anymore!”

The building, well yes. The reinforcement and how that was built, and the reasons it was built that way, and all the rest is pretty unique. We just don’t build those kinds of buildings anymore. But it was a one-of-a-kind when it was built.

Secretary Panetta said that was the biggest office he ever had in his public life.

Well, it’s mammoth. It’s like a gymnasium. I remember when President [Barack] Obama was over, he needed to use the restrooms. I said, “Well come in and duck in my office and use the restroom.” I guess he’d never been in the secretary of defense’s office. And he came out of there and he said, “Hagel, we’ve got to trade offices here. Your office is bigger than mine. That’s not the way it’s supposed to be.” And he’s laughing and thought it was funny. But, it’s a mammoth office. But the institution itself is tremendous. I think every secretary of defense – you keep a lot of the same pieces of furniture. You know the desk and the credenza behind the secretary’s desk, those are all historic pieces of furniture. And there’s something reassuring about that, I think, as secretary of defense.

Speaking of the building, every morning when I would get to the Pentagon, I’d walk up those steps. I’d get to the steps and I’d turn around and I’d look back across the water and down that magnificent mall there in front of the Pentagon where the flags are, and then across the river and you can see the Capitol. I would just marvel at the whole thing. Just the privilege to be there in that job was for me just an incredible experience. I have never lost that feeling. Every morning I would turn around, I would look out my window, often when I was thinking about something or on the phone talking to [President Abdel Fattah] el-Sisi from Egypt or talking to … my counterpart from Russia, the minister of defense, and all the time I’d be talking I’d be standing in that window looking at the Capitol, looking down. I mean, there was just some inspiration you’d draw from that, or at least I did. I think it’s all part of the building, the mystique of the building. It was for me.

Is there any particular aspect of the building that the general public might not be aware of, or would find interesting or inspirational?

I think there are so many parts of that building that are tremendously interesting and historic and inspirational. I’ve told people many, many times when they come to the Capitol and the Smithsonian and all these marvelous institutions and buildings we have, the Library of Congress, that the Pentagon I rate right up there as really a museum in many ways. It really is. And there are so many parts of it that are inspirational. But for me, to have the privilege in that office to be there and look across that water every day at the Capitol, and know what that building represented and know all the great people who have served this country, and look at the Congress of the United States where I served as well – for me that was about as inspirational as it could get. But the building itself and so many parts of it are very inspirational for people. I wish America could see that, all Americans could see that building and take a couple of hours just to tour – two hours’ worth, at least those corridors of the wars.