On The Environment, Prashant Iyengar with Kirsten Agar Ward

Prashant Iyengar

ON THE ENVIRONMENT

with Kirsten Agar Ward

Before Covid-19 struck, the IYN editors planned to run a feature on ecology and environmentalism and wanted to know Prashantji's thoughts on this. As I was going to be at RIMYI in March 2020, I offered to ask him for an interview.

I have been practising Iyengar yoga since the late 1980s and teaching it since 1997, establishing the Bath Iyengar Yoga Centre with my husband Richard in 2000. I have been blessed to have attended regular classes in RIMYI on sixteen visits in addition to special events in Pune and always attend Prashantji's classes. Prashantji is generous in sharing his deep knowledge and understanding of yoga and the scriptures, not only in his classes but also afterwards and in interviews and talks. He kindly agreed to carry out this interview even as Covid-19 was taking hold, and a few days before the Institute closed in March 2020.

KAW: These days, people are becoming more and more aware of environmental issues, climate change, plastics… Do you have any comments from a yoga perspective?

PSI: It’s not just yoga perspective but perspective of cosmic philosophy. At the moment, we are having this awareness which is a good sign, of course. But we are very unfortunately human-centric. Now our life is endangered and therefore we are thinking about the environment. We don’t consider that this planet is meant for all kinds of lives, what we call sub-human, etc. Calling something sub-human is also not proper, we have decided we are superior. So, it’s for the entire animate world at large, we must consider them.

Say, for instance, that we expel mosquitoes from our house. Mosquito is a life, it is entitled to be on the planet, and we must consider its perspective as well. We can’t just destroy and expel them. Why are mosquitoes coming into our human residence? Because we have done a lot of deforestation, we have taken their places for us to live. They are entitled to be having their own house on the planet. We are human-centrically looking, but we have to consider the whole living creation on the planet and think of the well-being of it, and not just human well-being.

We understand that flora and fauna should be maintained. For what? Again human-centric. We don’t want them to exist for their own right; we want them to exist for us, because we know that our life is harmed if we destroy them. The view of ancient wisdom is that it [the world] is meant for Life. You see in our concept of eschatological movements, human beings become mosquitoes and rats, cats, dogs, elephants, birds, reptiles and what not. We can become any kind of life form because of our own karmas. So even those creatures were latently human beings and potentially will be human beings, they will become human beings again. So we have to see that we preserve life for the sake of life and not life for the sake of human beings. We should not think that the planet is meant for human beings and then other things are secondary, subsidiary, subservient – this is not a right way. That’s also God’s creation. So, we have to have a broader perspective on ecology and environment.

KAW: Though what would your view be of mosquito repellant [laughs]? How far would you go?

PSI: Yes, why they are coming here? We have destroyed their houses and we don’t want them to come to our houses. So, afforestation for them, not afforestation for man. Now we are considering the weather, climate etc, but human being at the centre of it. We want it to be ideal for human beings; that is not right. It should be ideal for life, all kinds of lives, they have a right to be on the planet as much as we have rights to be on the planet. So, we must have a broader view. Even this vegetable creation, botanical life, is also life. We are looking at it as if they are our benefactor and we must maintain it.

KAW: If we weren’t here, if there were no people, do you think it would be better?

PSI: That’s what I said, Man has been imperialist, if we take Nature’s perspective. Man imperialistically destroys trees, if he doesn’t want a tree there. He will oust the creatures, worms and animals if he wants that place. So, in our Vedic literature all these things come. There is a beautiful passage which comes in Rudrapraśna. The sage becomes ecstatic in describing Divinity and he knows that all this is meant for Life. He says: “Oh God, from dust particles to stones to mountains, to rivers to forest, you have created for Being.” It is for Life. The whole planet is for Life and all kinds of life, not just human beings, so we have to see that they also have equal rights. They don’t claim anything, they are not egotistic, they are not infringing areas, but we are trying to conquer their areas.

KAW: Although I think if you’ve ever had a cat, they’re quite imperialist! But in a way isn’t it where you draw the line?

PSI: So, we should make the planet good for all kinds of life and not because human being wants that. For the balance of Nature. We are destroying the balance of the nature. Human technology, human discoveries, they are destroying the balance of nature. Carbon emissions came with the industrial revolution, since then we have spoiled nature. Earlier that was not the case. Now, because of the industrial revolution, man wants quick consumables, he wants everything speedily, and then we are going by that. Now we turn out cars, diesel machines, petrol machines, only considering human convenience. We did not bother about other animals, whether they would be suffering sooner or later. It was convenient for me to have a car to travel distances, I developed a car. We did not consider nature, we should consider the whole nature.

KAW: But it’s difficult, as you said the other day in class, if one has been the beneficiary of that then to tell other people who haven’t yet had those benefits, “I had a car but you can’t have a car. I flew but you can’t fly.”

PSI: Yes. That’s why it’s already commenced, we can’t now stop it, we can’t say I will have my house, my AC, my car but you should not have it. It won’t be done now. But human technology has dabbled with Nature enormously. And Nature can take toll any time, Nature is very powerful, what happens is one tsunami comes.…

KAW: Yes, even if people are not in a place for a short time, the plants start to take over.

PSI: Yes. There is one more beautiful observation: wherever human walks on the plain land he creates a pathway, no grass grows there. But when cattle create a pathway that doesn’t happen. So, man, his touch is so destructive, he just keeps walking a particular route and then it becomes barren land, nothing grows there.

KAW: Yes, in fact when a cow walks it create more habitats for other creatures.

PSI: And that’s why we have this concept of sighting divinity in all creation, whether inert or living. It’s all God’s nature, so God resides in all creation. God doesn’t just create it and walk away. This is a Chandogya Upanishad quotation. Unless Divinity enters its creation, it doesn’t get name or form. When divinity enters it gets name and form. And there is a broader view also. We believe there is no life on distant planets. That is not true. If there is creation it is for the purpose of life. Bhogāpavargartham drshyam [YS 2.18]. The entire objective category is for bhoga [enjoyment of pleasures] and apavarga [emancipation], the two purposes of life forms. So when scientists declare there is no life on Mars, we nod our heads and believe in them. It is not true. There is also life on the sun, but it is not the form of life we have on our planet.

On Earth we live on oxygen, but there are forms of life which live on carbon dioxide – plants. There will be a form of creation which lives on and by fire. There will be life even on Mercury where there is no oxygen. Here living things needs oxygen, but elsewhere it will be something else, because otherwise it’s all waste. And there is no waste in God’s creation. Now, no waste for whom? No waste for Life. That’s why we have celestial beings. We are terrestrial beings, we require earthly conditions – oxygen, the five elements in that form, moderate temperature.... There are gaseous bodies, fiery bodies, there is panchamahabhutas, there can be spatial bodies. Where is the question of temperature for space? Air has a different range, water has a different range. So prthvi, ap, tej, vayu, akash. There are so many permutations, combinations of five elements. It’s called quintuplication, the five elements coming together. They come in one proportion on Earth and others on other planets.

KAW: But by being in this embodiment, we are necessarily going to impose on other creatures and life forms, just to exist. So, where do you draw the line?

PSI: Had our life been more natural rather than having made it so artificial, which means we have infringed more on their lives. We are human-centric and therefore we are trying to make everything conducive for us, or what we think is conducive. And now what 200 years back was conducive to human beings, no longer is. Outdated.

KAW: And we are having to develop technnology to set right the wrongs that we’ve done.

PSI: Yes, so a wider view should be taken here now, a philosophical view. Not to believe that life is only here, it is there also.

KAW: It’s a tricky one from persepective, if I was orthodox Jain I would wear a mask, I wouldn’t walk on insects.

PSI: That is extreme, they practise ascetism, it doesn’t mean everyone should be ascetic. Our ancestors were not so much nature destructive, later generations have really started becoming nature destructive. So, if we lead a more natural life, then we will minimise destruction. Actually we cannot prevent because of the principle, “jivo jivasya jivanam” – “life lives on life”. If you don’t consume the life you won’t live [see Astanga Yoga

by Prashant Iyengar, ahimsa topic]. We consume life by some way. Minute life forms, even the nonliving there is said to be something living there as well. We eat fruit and there is life in it, it is a living creation. Water contains bacterial life. Bacteria in air – we inhale and destroy millions of bacteria in one breath. We all live on life. But what is ahimsa? That you must not be cruel. Out of cruelty or out of enmity if you commit something it is himsa. When we consume water you don’t say “I am going to consume ten millions of bacteria and destroy them”, but if you have that psychodynamic, “I am going to kill the bacteria” then that is himsa, enmity. So, Mahabharata says you cannot be practising ahimsa absolutely. Then you should not breathe, you should not drink water [laughs]. That’s how the balance is kept you see, because we take birth and die, if nobody dies….

KAW: Yes, but each of us makes choices about how far we go.

PSI: Yes, so moderate, simple, temperate, nonartificial life, as far as possible natural.

KAW: But here I am having flown in on an aeroplane and contributed to some devastation….

PSI: Yes, by flying we are interfering with clouds and their functions, and all the pollution. We have gone too far, so now we have to see how we can reduce that. Try to have simple life, moderate, natural life. It’s not that suddenly banish all air travel, other travels. That’s not the way. We’ll have to understand. When understanding comes, gradually a person has to improve the conscience. It should be a wider conscience, consider the whole life, whole Nature.

KAW: Do you think it ultimately has to be an individual responsibility, like this morning you were saying you can’t force people to work hard and similarly you shouldn’t force people to behave better to the environment?

PSI: That's why in our philosophical perspective, they say first you have to improve the internal environment. We have spoiled the environment inside, and that afflicts creation outside. So let’s try to clear the internal atmosphere. That is, let’s be bereft of kama, krodha, loba, moha, mada, matsarya – the six foes within us. They are there and that’s why we are almost demonic. So, I try to reform there, improve the internal atmosphere and environment.

So, it’s all very subjectivistic, it’s not something to be given advice and have practice norms, tell people about the environment etc, that will not work too much for such a huge planet. We have to improve our own psyche, consciousness, conscience. Our internal atmosphere has to be purified. There come the yogic practices, or the spiritual adhyatmik practices. If we improve our mind then we won’t be a demonic person outside, but if you don’t improve this, you might be civilised but you will be demonic.

KAW: You’ve talked a lot about civilisation versus culture, I suppose that’s the crux of it, if you’re cultured, then the natural result is a certain set of actions.

PSI: Yes, culture is something that is more in you. Civilisation is that you are putting on a mask, that you are decent, you have civic sense.

KAW: It’s tuning into that culture inside.

PSI: It’s the management of six foes. They have to be replaced by another six – satshampatti, counter positions, this also comes in my Discourses on Yoga [See table p.15]. Shama is mental restraint, mind purification, etherealising the mind, purifying it so it becomes transparent. Dama is sensory restraint counter to krodha. Now, why do you get angry? It is because sensory passions or tendencies are obstructed or antagonised. So if they are reformed, then there is not much room for anger. That’s why saintly people don’t get angry quickly. Then tittiksha, is tolerance, forebearance, acceptance rather than blaming others for one’s fate which leads us to retaliate. Whatever we are suffering we should know that is part of our destiny; someone else

might be instrumental but that does not mean they are responsible. So, that will make us more sober and tender people. When we suffer these things, anger, envy, they surface but that will counter. Uparati of vairagya form is satiety, having enjoyed the world sufficiently: “let me not go for more enjoyment”. Then jnana vairagya. Last is shanti samaran, thepair, peace and contentment. Why do you envy someone? It’s because you don’t have peace and contentment. Samapatti are counter positions, so it’s not just a question of destroy one column (foes), you have to attain the other column also, satsampatti, glories, that is wealth of psyche.

So, if you develop this you won’t be harmful to nature. If you have foes then you are harmful to nature around you and at large. But if you have this satsamapatti you’ll be compassionate, magnanimous, considerate, you won’t be antagonising.

So, this nature in us has to be developed. We want to live as we are and then have nature in balance. This will not happen! If we don’t improve our psyche we are not going to have environmental awareness working successfully, because that’s suppression. We will suppress for a while, but again it will come greater, next generation it will come, in next life it will come. If we are managing the internal atmosphere we don’t have to bother about that [external environment], it will be managed. It is this which is spoiling that.

KAW: It occurred to me that when we are practising there are other concepts that relate to the outer environment in the microcosm of the inner environment. For example, you learn about sustainability in the way of practising an asana, how to stay, whether you should stay, about interrelatedness, and energy efficiency, the input has to become less and output more.

PSI: Let me say man must philosophise the life. Philosophy is only for humans, because human mind needs it. Human beings should culture ourselves. You leave the whole planet to animals the whole balance will be maintained. We are the ones who are destroying the balance so we need to philosophise our lives. Rather than giving sermons to people, “don’t cut down trees, don’t do this, don’t do that”, we must reform ourselves, then it will be more essential measure taken. This will not be essential, but that’s okay for public education, and create awareness in the people, that’s a good thing, but basically but we must evolve ourselves, there you find solution not in just triggering awareness in the minds of the people, that will work 1 or 2 percent.

KAW: There’s so little value or effect in lecturing.

PSI: Yes. We are not supposed to go by our tendencies as human beings. Now under this banner of liberty we are taking it to mean going by our tendencies. This is beastish. We don’t expect a snake to reform its tendencies, but we are supposed reform our tendencies.

KAW: Like you said the other day, “Want what you need, not need what you want.”

PSI: Yes, true.

KAW: I was thinking as well about this climate emergency and also now we have this virus emergency, and there is some potential in that situation for more unity in humanity, to cooperate to resolve things. It is an opportunity.

PSI: Yes, because every kind of danger, untoward conditions you must have emergency means, they are needed. But it is important also to understand the importance of long term means. Like we say, we must educate people. But there are emergency means, authorities to be policing, they will have to do that, so emergency means are necessary for any such danger that comes.

KAW: But also that it might make us more cooperative and think more deeply.

PSI: Yeah, it is important we have such set up bodies and such. Animals don’t need United Nations! We need, it’s a good thing. But we have to see that the human psyche reforms. We must

become more and more simple, rather than trying to go for affluence. Everyone aspires to become affluent. So that is how human mind is caught in materialistic gravities. We want to become rich, we don’t want all to become rich. When we become rich we are depriving the other people, by collecting wealth.

KAW: Yes and the happier societies are the most equal societies.

PSI: 10% of the people are possessing 90% of the wealth of the planet. This is imbalanced. But that’s the human tendency, that materialistic tendency.

KAW: Yes, like you were saying the other day in pranayama about greed in drawing the breath in. You are learning about greed there and the repercussions of that…

PSI: Yeah.

KAW: And also they’ve found that once you get to a certain absolute level of wealth you don’t get any happier. No matter how much more.

PSI: Yeah, true, correct.

KAW: So, apart from the small matter of reforming ourselves (!), is there anything else that we should be doing or not doing do you think?

PSI: That’s why there is a broad scheme which yoga gives. Satsanga sadhana, sanga shastra sanga. We have ahar, vihar… Ahar is all our intakes, in whatever form, it’s not just ingestion of food, but mental, intellectual, sensory intakes. We must have some management scrutiny, and reconsideration of it. Then vihar, all kinds of movements, what are our movements, why are we making movements? We must have scrutiny, enquiry into it. Why am I going from one place to another place? Just because I have vehicle, just because I want to go? Why? Then we will know that many of the things we do should not be done, our movements are unnecessarily more, to satisfy our tendencies of the flesh. If we go on making movements there will be indiscrete SIX FOES OF THE PSYCHE

1. Kāma desire

2. Krodha anger

3. Lobha greed

4. Moha infatuation

5. Mada pride

6. Mātsarya malice, envy SIX WEALTHS OF THE PSYCHE

1. Shama mental restraint

2. Dama sensory restraint

3. Tittiksha forebearance, acceptance

4. Uparati satiety

5. Jnana vairagya thirstless wisdom

6. Shanti Smaran remembrance of peace

Six foes which disturb the mind & their six counter positions

. 1 . AHAR intakes

. 2 . VIHAR movements

. 3 . ACHAR conduct

FOUR PILLARS OF LIFE

. 4 . VICHAR thoughts

movements. So also mind movements, where the mind goes. There should be scrutiny of it. Just because mind can go anywhere why and where should it be going? If the mind going outwardly it is going to be devastating at some stage. Let the mind go inwardly. This scrutiny cannot be an outside body, it must be within you, should be internal scrutiny.

Then achar, conduct. Why are you having a particular kind of conduct? We never investigate our own behaviour, we investigate others’ behaviours, [laughs] they investigate our behaviours! Why not investigate our own behaviour? Later moment we think I should not have behaved like that but at that moment we think we are perfectly right. So, why not have the scrutiny of it?

Now, scrutiny means what? It’s not just enquiry, investigative agency that has to be set up. Sattva guna, see that your movements are sattvic. They will be restrained, they will be essential. There won’t be superfluity. So, sattvic ahar, vihar, achar, vichar. Refrain from tamasic and rajasic ahar, vihar, achar, vichar. This is guna management. Sattva guna will make you more discreet, you will not increase the sphere of your activities unnecessarily. But if you are rajasic, you will. It is so subjectivistic, nobody can give you a pathology, authentic, that you are rajasic or tamasic, only we ourselves can recognise am I sattvic, rajasic or tamasic.

So, sattvika ahar, vihar, achar, vichar is a major stipulation, which is all encompassing. You will not have these problems which we are having in sociopolitical, socio-economic life, personal life, family life.

Also, satsanga sadhana sanga shastra sanga. The wisdom resources, intrinsic and extrinsic both. So sadhana is also required, you must have practice. Now what to practice? It is not asana and pranayama only. In Discourses of Yog, I mention this, practices for each of the three bodies, for gross body, practices for subtle body, practices for causal body. So what are the practices of gross body? What are the practices for subtle body? What are the practices for causal body? This is sadhana. So we have to identify the sadhana which the whole science of yoga mentions.

KAW: Anything else to add about the environment?

PSI: Nature must be preserved, we should not say that the planet is meant for humans, then set everything right for us. You cannot decide what is right for you actually.

KAW: If you can’t decide what is right for you, then who can or how is that done?

PSI: Because if you are going to decide what is right for you, you are going to decide by your tendencies, etc. So we’ll have to reform our thought process, psyche. There is something within us which will guide us. We are not ours to decide what is right and wrong. The inner voice, inner call will tell you what is right and what is wrong. That is more proper right and wrong classification or division, rather than you thinking. You cannot decide, but something in you decides it. So, we don’t hear the inner voice, and we want to sound the voices outside. Listen to the inner sounds. We are not qualified but something in us is qualified and that will guide us. So inner voice, inner call.

KAW: Do you think there is ever any point in any of us trying to tell anyone else anything, imposing our idea, what our conscience is telling us as far as we’ve got?

PSI: That’s why we don’t have to go for imposing at all. We have to reform ourselves. And even in our adhyatmik process we just open out the thought process within you. I do not put a thought implant in you. I say you discover, you explore within yourself. It’s an explorative process. There is no question of imposing anything. Wise people don’t impose. They only draw you to the sound which comes from within. They draw inwards, you listen to that they say. Listen to your own conscience, follow your conscience. So, we don’t try to impose anything, while social reformers they want to

impose. They don’t want to give knowledge to people, they want to tell you what to do and what not to do. We should not be imposing. We have to reform ourselves, show people to reform their own psyches and consciousness. It’s a time-consuming thing. It will consume generations. Until that time you have emergency measures. Like you tell your child ‘that’s fire, don’t go closer there’, so that will be there.

KAW: It’s going to take a long time, this reform.

PSI: Yeah, so each constituent of human society reforms, then it is easier process. So that’s why this is subjectivistic approach, all these things, they come in path, yoga and spirituality, what one must practice. And you get that in huge quantum you go to listen to words of wise people. If you have your own thought process you will not get it. So, go to a wise man, you will get it in a big quantum. So, that’s why satsanga. Listen to wiser people. Read, study, hear words of wisdom. Enormous scope is there, it’s not that very slow process.

Satsanga also means sattvasanga, that sattva guna which is inherent in you, that must be well laid within yourself. Sattva guna is within you, it might be arrested in some part of your psyche, let it be brought out, like you burn incense the fragrance goes all over. Similarly through some practices, like asana, pranayama and whatever, japa, dhyana, these practices are important, Just listening, listening and walking out, is what happens in neo -spiritualism, they just give you discourses, they talk to you and you think you are reformed, but again you come back to square one, sooner or later. So, some practices are needed in satsanga. We have internal satsanga, that is external satsanga, somebody’s talking and you are listening. That is not all, that is not sufficient, so many things are to be done, like practising. When you practise are you not etherealised? So that biochemically you are processed for that. Here it is temporary thing that you listen to some wise words. Bhoomi Vandanam Mantra

samudravasane devi parvatasthana mandite vishnupatni namastubhym padasparsam kshamasva me Salutations to you Mother Earth who has oceans as your garments and breasts in the form of mountains Wife of Vishnu deva please forgive the touch of my feet on the Earth, your body.

This is traditionally chanted in the morning by vaidikas after the pratah smaranan. It is a salutation to Mother Earth and seeking forgiveness for stepping on her. So it is chanted just before stepping on the ground when getting out of bed in the morning. It is an expression of gratitude for Mother Earth supporting and providing for us throughout life.

Submitted by Kirsten Agar Ward

KAW: Last year, I remember you saying about everything being biochemical processes. Then this morning through practicing, I understood a bit more what you meant.

PSI: Yeah, apparently it seems to be physical process, so that’s first sight. It will not be right, because appearancive form is so deluding. Things are not as they appear, things are as they are. It’s a metaphysical precept. But for us the things are as they appear. And that’s why we do whole business of life. It appears to be like that, I will do this way, but things are not like that.

KAW: And appearance is actually mostly constructed in your brain.

PSI: Yeah, and that’s a gross perception, through the eyes you are seeing what is visible. But it is such a strong means of knowledge, that other things are like stars during daytime. They are there, you don’t see them. But if you do shastra sanga, if you read the shastras then you realise realities.