Interview with Navaz Kamdin on Pranayama

Interview with Navaz Kamdin, from Iyengar Yoga News No. 35, Autumn 2019

by Katie Owens

At the IY(UK) 2019 Prāņāyāma Convention we took the opportunity to talk to teacher Navaz Kamdin to find out more about her life and teaching.

KO: You’ve been teaching prāņāyāma at the Institute in Pune for many years. Could you tell us a little bit about how you came into that role?

NK: Well prāņāyāma is a very interesting subject; at the same time, it's a difficult subject. With āsana-s, it's much easier as you can force your body to work. But prāņāyāma is the next step after āsana where you learn to be aware and strike a balance between your body, mind and breath. It is not a physical exercise as people think it is, it's not a breathing exercise. It is moving from the known towards the unknown. The known body moves further to experience the manas [the individual mind], the buddhi [the intellect] and still further towards the ātmā. It is only when you start your inward penetration towards the ātmā and you come in contact with your [individual] soul - that is jivātmā - only then can you reach out the universal spirit that is Brahman. That is the entire focus of prāņāyāma. And not just sitting with your eyes closed and making all those sounds and grunting; that is not prāņāyāma.

Guruji's prāņāyāma is very scientific. He begins with Śavāsana, so that you learn to relax the body. Śavāsana is the common denominator between āsana and prāņāyāma. It helps to quieten the body, relax the body. It helps to quieten your breath. It helps to bring tranquility of your nervous system; it helps to make you more calm mentally as well as gives you mental poise. So we begin with Śavāsana, where you learn how to place your body, how to align your body; it gives you knowledge of the different parts of your body which you are going to use; how to relax them. Because it cannot be done with a tight body. That act of surrender and the act of inward penetration receding inwards - your sensory organs, your organs of action - all these have to move in a different direction compared to āsana.

And, how did I come to teach prāņāyāma? Being one of the oldest students, where of course together with Sunita and Geeta we had a whole group of Guruji's children and some senior members of the group, myself, we were all in Guruji's prāņāyāma class which he started in 1962. The Institute was not there at that time. Some of the old students asked him, please Guruji can you start for us. By that time even he evolved. He became more articulate, he became more concentrated in his teaching. Then he was prepared to take only prāņāyāma classes. And at that time people asked for it more often, but he said no, you can't have it more often because then it becomes a habit. And with habit there's no inward penetration. So, what you had to learn is svādhyāya [practice] by yourself. And then intelligence comes.

And then it was Geetaji who interested me in the beginners' prāņāyāma upstairs at RIMYI. Because she was taking the other prāņāyāma class downstairs on Fridays. And she gave me a prāņāyāma class upstairs for beginners, so by the time they come downstairs they know what they're going in for, otherwise it started becoming very stressful for her. Every month foreigners coming and then you go back from where you have started, and then the local people having no idea, head nor tail of it and all wanting to go into the advanced classes. So, we started first with a beginners’ class. Now we even have an intermediate class, and downstairs at the moment I was taking Geetaji's classes because her health was not good and she requested me. And she always guided me. And she always told me, "I'm keeping a watch over what you are doing, I know what you are teaching, I'm even asking the people who are attending your class."

KO: So was she sometimes there in the class with you?

NK: No, it was after the medical class, she used to be very tired. But she always gave me instructions. "When you go to the UK, you have to teach like this. When you go to the UK, remember this." So, there was always a preparation on her part. And it was an honour to be guided by her.

KO: That leads on to my next question: how was your experience of studying with the Iyengar family in general?

NK: You see, first we had no Institute. My father was a back patient, he had a slipped disc. And the very renowned doctor in Pune said, "Nobody can help you, there's only one South Indian man, his name is Iyengar, beware of him, he's got a temper! Only he can help you." And my mother was always more inclined than my father towards yoga. So, my mother approached Guruji and said that we wanted to start classes in Pune. He said, "I can't come for one or two people - you have to collect at least five or six, and then I'm ready to come." And that was fair enough. But even to get those five or six people wasn't easy. One came, the other ran away; another came, the other ran away...because you see it's the discipline, nobody wants to maintain that. So sometimes my mother used to be alone in the class.

At that time Guruji started bringing his children also.

Mrs Iyengar, Amma, used to come. When there were prāņāyāma classes Amma used to sit opposite my mother, put her hand on her shoulder and on her head, and explain prāņāyāma to her. That is how we started. And then of course Geeta and Prashant were there and Sunita, Suchita, Savita. All of us started practising together, and Vanita was the leader. The circus trainer. She took charge of all of us. So that is how we started working, so it became like a close-knit family. Sarita, the youngest daughter of Guruji, and my younger sister were the same age. Abhi's mother and I were the same age, same class. So there was a lot of bonding, and discussions before class, after class, during class...so that comradeship was very strong. In class and outside class also. And then Guruji with a great sense of humour, as we were all round and podgy he called us all sorts of names, he never called us by our names. Even to the end if he has his way he would say, "fatty, come here!" and he would call all of us "hippies" because we had big hips...he would call us all kinds of names; "Gajalakșmī”. Gaja means elephant, andLakșmī is the goddess of wealth, so we were all Lakșmī-s but elephant size! [laughs] So, it was fun, laughter, happiness - and hard work also.

KO: So it was really you and the family mostly...

NK: And there were other people also, yes, we were all like one small family; 10, 15 maybe. And when the Institute was built we said oh my God what will we do with such a big Institute? There are just a few of us, the whole Institute will be empty [laughs].

KO: Could you talk a bit about the relationship between āsana and prāņāyāma?

NK: You see, you know about the eight-fold paths. Yama, niyama. āsana, prāņāyāma, pratyāhāra, dhārāṇa. dhyāna and asamādhi. The eight fold path, right? First is āsana, and then prāņāyāma. So, āsana prepares you, prepares your body, by the control of the muscles, control of the nerves, control of your body, to prepare yourself for prāņāyāma. So the present trend is people are very fascinated by prāņāyāma and meditation and run for that, without any preparation of āsana - that is wrong. Guruji would instruct us, "When you are teaching, never take anybody for prāņāyāma until they reach a certain standard of āsana." So you never have a devoted, true Iyengar yoga teacher rushing into prāņāyāma without a student having enough knowledge of āsana-s. It's forbidden, and can be dangerous. You see? And Guruji starts his prāņāyāma with Śavāsana. So people said why can't we just sit with our eyes closed and do prāņāyāma meditation? It's not possible, because what is prāņāyāma? Prāņāyāma is receding inwards. Your organs of perception, your organs of action; you can't suddenly sit in the chair and close your eyes and say I am receding my eyes, my ears and everything. The preparation work is done in Śavāsana. It is in Śavāsana with back support where you learn your Ujjāyi, you learn your Viloma, and all this gradually

KO: Do you think on the whole people are practising enough prāņāyāma?

NK: No. There is very poor knowledge of prāņāyāma. Many teachers do not know how to teach prāņāyāma. Those who teach prāņāyāma are so egoistic. When they come to the Institute - I'm sorry, I'm open, I'm frank. I have no bosses. Except in Pune! - they are so egoistic - tight - that their diaphragms are strong, and hardened; their chest is hardened. What do they think they are, Tarzan, or Batman?! God knows what! They forget to look at Guruji in the most difficult āsana-s with his skin and muscles as soft as butter. And this hardness means mental hardness here. And if this doesn't go, you're not fit for prāņāyāma. You are doing gymnastics, not prāņāyāma. That is why I say it is very difficult for a prāņāyāma teacher. You have to be very vigilant. First comes the hardness in the diaphragm and if the hardness comes in the diaphragm, the chest will not open. If the chest will not open, your brain is tight, the brain gets active. If the brain cells don't go down, that becomes another problem. The whole thing is in receding order: the chest up, diaphragm down, the top abdomen downwards, receding down. That is why we use the bolster to get that step-like action, and create the movement. And it is not being conveyed in the right way. There's not enough people to teach because it's not a very interesting topic. With āsana-s, it's ego - where "I'm doing better than you" or "You're doing better than me", and if I do it for 10 minutes you are doing it for 15 ... you show off, you build up your ego that way. This is self-study, svādhyāya.

comes with Śavāsana, it's step by step. You are going from the known, you are going to the unknown. You are reaching within yourself where your manas, your buddhi ; all this, is withdrawn inwards. So, āsana is the preparation for prāņāyāma. And then, after prāņāyāma will come pratyāhāra. Then dhārāṇa, dhyāna. You can't jump like a child going from the nursery school to the fifth grade. It's not possible, it can affect your mental balance also. Guruji has made these points very clearly. It's a very big responsibility for prāņāyāma teachers. It is not that easy. You have to be ten times more vigilant than you are with āsana-s.

KO: So how would somebody know if they're ready?

NK: Unless they follow the instructions, they themselves will understand, the intelligence will come to them. Which is not something a teacher can put into them, they have to work for it. The teacher can only instruct. Like Guruji once told us the story of the Akshaya Patra. Akshaya Patra is an inexhaustible vessel. Like in the Bible there is also a story of Christ feeding the poor on loaves of bread and fish which don't get exhausted until the last one can eat it. So the Pandavas and the Kauravas had a fight. The Pandavas were banished into the forest. When they went into the forest they had

to go with the whole troop. Yudhishtira, one of the Pandavas, was very worried, wondering how he would manage and feed these people. So the palace priest, who was also banished, told them, "Pray to Lord Surya, he will answer your prayers.” So Yudhishtira prays to Lord Surya. Lord Surya answers his prayers with the Akshaya Patra, an inexhaustible vessel, so all the people can have their meals from it, until the last - the common wife of the Pandavas, Draupadi. It's the Indian culture that the women of the house eat last, and let the egoistic men eat first! Until Draupadi finishes the meal, the vessel is not empty. So, it's the Akshaya Patra. Guruji says prāņāyāma is like that. It has no beginning, it has no end. You see? And it goes on. So people want to achieve something fast. It gives you lessons in patience - a lot of patience is needed.

KO: I remember reading that Guruji said something similar about his own attitude to prāņāyāma, that he found it quite difficult because he preferred to do āsana practice, so he found it quite challenging for a long time.

NK: It was very challenging and his teacher didn't teach him, he kept it very secretive. So much so he used to quietly when the teacher was practising, climb up next to his window and peep inside to see what he could see - his own guru, with so much ego! That the student must not know what I do. And here, he gave, he gave, and so did Geeta, there were no limits to what they gave. Until her last breath, she gave.

KO: We hear a lot about the benefits of āsana practice but are there any specific benefits with prāņāyāma practice?

NK: Prāņāyāma has even more benefits. Prāņāyāma is channelling the cosmic energy that we take in through our prana, the breath. And then you have inhalations, puraka; you have exhalations, rechaka, and you have what you call kumbhaka, retention. So these three things are very important in prāņāyāma. Each having their own plus points. Inhalation you take in the cosmic energy. In a kumbhaka the assimilation of that cosmic energy that you take in is done. And in the exhalation, your toxins are thrown out and you are emptying your lungs, together with your mind, your thoughts and your emotions. And that is the time you are prepared for your journey inwards towards the self. Besides the spiritual awareness that it creates, the other facts about prāņāyāma are people who are suffering from heart problems benefit; those who have asthma, they benefit. By lifting up the chest in such a way, and the sternum lifted upwards, people under depression, under emotional strain, they also benefit. There are numerous benefits of prāņāyāma, there is no end to them. Your pressure is controlled, your nature is controlled, your temper is controlled...

KO: I was wondering if you had seen any particular cases?

NK: Yes - we keep on seeing them in front of us. We keep on seeing them, the transformations we see - those asthmatics who couldn't even breathe and because their lungs have collapsed. So if the lungs have collapsed, unless you teach them to open their chest then only can the lungs open. So all that is done step by step by step. People with heart problems, even when heart problems when they do certain exercises and breathing, even people who are in for the use of stents and things like that, that also can be taken care of. And emotional problems, we have seen depression cases improve in front of us. Because this area under the sternum is said to be the emotional centre. That's why we are constantly lifting our chest up. You drop, your mind drops; with your mind, your emotions drop.

KO: If people have different health issues, might they be referred between the āsana classes and the prāņāyāma classes?

NK: No, they have to first do the āsana classes, no way. That is the cardinal rule in Iyengar Yoga.

KO: Can you give us a bit of an idea of what you'll be teaching over the weekend?

NK: I will be teaching strictly prāņāyāma from the Iyengars; B.K.S. Iyengar and Geeta. That is the way I have been taught. Yes, I have had lots of input from Prashantji also. Prashant has been a friend and a guide to me over the years and is a truly great teacher and is the leader of the Iyengar Yoga community around the world.

So, it is all my three teachers who have taught me what I am. It's just that I was lucky to be in the right place at the right time. And like Prashant says, you don't have better work to do that's why you stuck with it!