Tom Norris In Conversation

WEEKS PRIOR TO THE OPENING OF ALSO RISES TOM NORRIS SAT DOWN WITH JULIUS KILLERBY (MANAGER OF JGM GALLERY) TO DISCUSS HIS PRACTICE AND THE UPCOMING EXHIBITION. IN THEIR CONVERSATION NORRIS ELABORATED ON HIS PROCESS, WHERE HE FINDS INSPIRATION AND THE IDEAS EXPRESSED IN HIS WORK.

WHAT FOLLOWS IS A TRANSCRIPT OF THEIR CONVERSATION.

JULIUS KILLERBY IS THE MANAGER OF JGM GALLERY, AN ARTIST AND A WRITER. BETWEEN LONDON, MELBOURNE & VENICE, HE HAS MORE THAN 7 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE WORKING WITHIN THE ART INDUSTRY. THIS INCLUDES POSITIONS HELD AT THE AUSTRALIAN PAVILION AT THE 59TH INTERNATIONAL VENICE BIENNALE, FLINDERS LANE GALLERY & METRO GALLERY.

JULIUS KILLERBY So Tom, what is the exhibition title and why?

TOM NORRIS The title of the exhibition is borrowed from the Ernest Hemingway novel, The Sun Also Rises. I’ve abbreviated this down to Also Rises Before Hemingway it was actually taken from the Bible, in which it is an even lengthier epigraph than the one he adopted. I’ve also changed the context of the phrase. In its original reading it talks about the idea that people come and go, the earth keeps turning and things keep moving forward, regardless of our interactions with them. I didn’t feel that reading was fitting with what we know now. Since the book and the Bible were written, we’ve learned more information about our interactions and involvement with the planet. So, I’m recontextualising and repurposing the phrase, possibly for a more optimistic and less futile outlook than the initial reading.

JK So would you say that the original phrase is quite cynical?

TN Yes, I suppose in a way you could use it as a retort, couldn’t you? It’s almost the equivalent of saying “And what?” or “So what?”

JK I suppose almost all art mediums and surfaces are derived from natural materials but would you say that you have a particular affinity for overtly natural materials such as clay and wood?

TN Yes, I’ve been around clay and wood for a lot of my life. They’re quite familiar materials to me and they’re very familiar for humans. They’re prolific as materials. We see them and use them an awful lot. They’re innately a domestic material but at the same time they are used as a construction material. It’s that familiarity that I’m chiming in on. There’s a psychological connection to it.

JK So you can expect your audience to be more comfortable with those materials?

TN Yes, I suppose it’s referencing a domestic interior and so they somewhat expand from that comfort and familiarity.

JK It’s also interesting that what an artist creates, generally speaking, is almost the furthest thing from an organically produced pattern or shape. So there’s a mixture between those two things, something organic and something contrived.

TN Yes, it’s also interesting that wood and ceramic have a relationship to each other. Kilns, since a long ago, were fired with wood. They also both go through a process of metamorphosis. There’s the acorn, which grows into a tree. Clay, similarly, is formed in the ground over a long period of time. It’s that material history that I am interested in. That cyclical nature also ties back into the title of the exhibition.

JK You’ve spoken before about the parallels that one can draw between the creation of art and the forces of nature. Could you expand on this?

TN Yes. I think that there’s an optimism and productivity within nature. Right now, we are approaching Spring, which is an annual event of sorts. It’s very predicatable. Each year, Spring comes around and yet there’s still something quite surprising about it. The analogy there is that I know roughly what I am going to make as an artist, but there’s also an element of surprise. It’s an energising cycle that I’m involved with.

JK In that context, I suppose the word “Also” has more of an optimistic and surprised undertone. Would you agree with that?

TN Yes, I would.

JK The repurposing of the title aside, would I be right in assuming that you are a big fan of Hemingway and The Sun Also Rises?

TN Yes, sure. Definitely growing up I found it a very exciting novel to read. There’s a kind of slow action to it and also not very much actually happens. Yes, big fan of Heminway.

JK Is there a narrative element in your work, relating to The Sun Also Rises specifically?

TN No. I think there it probably departs from the title. But, of course, a title is chosen for a reason and it acts as an introduction of sorts to what you’re going to read, or in my case, what you’re about to view. It’s there to guide the book in Hemingway’s case, or the work in my show. It does also leave, however, some space for interpretation.

JK But I would still say that there are some scenes in The Sun Also Rises which are quite a seamless fit with your work. The early chapter, for example, where the group are fishing by the river.

TN Definitely, yes. In the book, there’s this romantic idea of going out on expeditions. There’s this constant preparation of things for an adventure of sorts. I grew up in the Lake District and had lots of similar experiences.

JK Does “Also Rises” also suggest that things which are ostensibly the same can be construed variably?

TN Definitely, yes. That’s how I approach making art. There’s an idea about bringing more than one perspective together and then layering these ideas as image. That kind of starts from what we were just saying earlier about material. These are all kinds of positions that you are in or instructions for work to behave in a certain way. I describe it as a kind of stereoscopic approach where you have two independent images that are unified. I suppose I’ve been doing that with my work for ages: bringing real and imagined spaces together. It’s like going for a walk and the combination of that and the reverie that’s created whilst walking through the space. So you’re kind of merging what’s in front of you with a more poetic image that’s in your mind.

JK I guess the simplest phrase which captures this idea would be, “Is a glass half full or is it half empty?”

TA Yes, absolutely. There’s a dual position. You don’t have to have a single position, which perhaps is the closest my work will get to a commentary on politics. I think it can be productive to occupy more than one position and I think that’s in the work and definitely within how I start work or explore work within collage. That kind of looseness in bringing disparate sources together and seeing what having more than one interpretation of the same subject can do to what you’re looking at.

JK Though you’re a representational artist, your style is quite abstracted. It’s as though it’s abstracted to the point of something you’d see in your peripheral vision. Would you agree with that?

TN Yes, sure. I’m very comfortable sitting between quite large areas of colour and calling that landscape. In a sense the colour does the work. Or it’s a stand in for representation in that way. It signals towards known forms but it’s also held in an abstract form.

JK It feels more like a memory of a place rather than a direct representation of it.

TN Yes, that definitely exists in the work. That tends to the needs of having it as a real and imagined experience.

JK I find the work interesting as well because ceramics are very domestic objects. People usually think of them as being part of an interior space. Yet the subject matter you’ve chosen is very ‘outdoorsy’, for want of a better word. Would you agree that there’s a bit of a tension there between form and content?

TN Yes, sure. It’s almost like reversing a subject. Instead of putting flowers in the vase, you put flowers on the vase. Yes, I guess there is a tension there that I like to use. Also, perhaps to go into.. I guess... well what is a vase and what is its purpose? We have this whole association with ceramics being in a domestic setting. We also have associations with their functionality. What I’m doing is sort of side-stepping the functionality of the vessel, or extending its purpose beyond the literal, so that there’s a kind of metaphorical reading paired with what it actually is, which is a container. I’ve spoken in the past about the opportunity vessels have to be a stand in for words, for instance. There’s an opportunity to hold something with it. The surface for me is a cyclical way of looking at the same subject. Again, that ties back into the processes of living. The whole thing with the show, I guess, is this idea about our inseparable connection to nature. You know, we have these devices (smartphones, computers etc.) and they proliferate this kind of...

JK Illusion of security?

TN Yes and there’s this sense of a divide between us and nature and I don’t think there actually is a divide. All it is, is an inch of bricks or a layer of ceramics between us and nature. Though I wouldn’t say the work is about re-connecting us to nature because that’s a kind of contemporary view. It’s more about extending the ontology of the object to make us look outside and think about our connection to the rest of the world.

JK Is that why you add strips and borders in a lot of your works because... well I guess even a canvas itself acts like a window or a barrier between things, between reality and representation.

TN We do see patterns and structures in nature. Trees, for instance, have influenced a lot of architects but, that being said, the harder edged gestures within my work certainly are the human part of it, I suppose.

JK Is it also almost a bit of a joke, in a way, telling the audience that what they’re seeing is just another illusion?

TN Yes, I think so. Illusion is a good way to describe it, but also the layering and confusing of the surface is a shorthand way of saying “Here’s indoors and here’s outdoors”, which I think is a very productive place for me to work.

JK Do you view your vessels as utilitarian objects and works of art at the same time?

TN Yes, I think that dual position very much arises from them being functional things. The vessel is a player in both teams, in a way. It’s definitely attached to function. I like being in a position between the world of applied art and the world of fine art. I think the fact that you can handle them sort of bridges those two worlds. It’s quite comforting, in a way. There’s not that remove of “Oh, this is a sculpture or a painting that you can’t touch.” I mean, you can put flowers in them if you want.

(Both laugh).

JK And that plays into the title and idea of the show, I guess. “Also Rises” implies variable perceptions or, in this case, varied uses.

TN Yes, definitely.

JK How do you know when one of your pieces is finished and how do you judge the success or failure of a work?

TN A lot of the pace of the work, or the making of it, is guided by the necessity to work as an artist. Sometimes I’ll leave something, put it to the side and come back to it later. With ceramics, however, this can sometimes be difficult. With oil painting, the great thing is you can very easily come back and add more layers. With ceramics, however, once you’ve added the vitrification and the glaze on top of that, it’s a bit tricky to go back into the surface. I guess I don’t really know the answer to your question. Sometimes, I’m looking to see if there’s enough compositional balance on the surface. It’s often through repetition that I find a way through that problem of “When is it done?” I make work in series, so I’ll have a specific palette, or visual cues or ideas that I work with, and then just re-arrange them, like ingredients. I’ll move them around in different ways to make different meals and that is a way of working through “When is it finished?” That’s kind of why I’m interested in abstract art because it expands. You can apply the process and the material does all the work. So, finishing is quite a strange thing, but at some point, I know they’re finished.

JK It’s interesting because you can bring representation into abstraction quite seamlessly but the reverse is a bit trickier. We look for real forms in abstraction more than we look for abstract forms in representational art. Abstract forms in representational art could be interpreted, rightly or wrongly, as a mistake, for instance.

TN Yes, I think approaching that through collage... I mean... I have this idea that style can be the subject and that by giving myself permission to not worry about specific readings of the work, it gives me a kind of freedom. It allows me to say...

JK It is what it is?

TN Yes, and that’s possibly my decorative mind coming in and asking, “How do you define what is and isn’t decorative?” And letting colour, for instance, speak for itself. I feel that there’s a power and an energy within colour.

JK And that would, I guess, tie into the parallel between the creative forces of nature and the creative forces of the artist. It’s not as though nature is trying to convey anything. It just is what it is.

TN Yes, and there’s no permission needed there.

JK That being said, however, would you say that the trees and foliage in your work are meant as a metaphor for something?

TN Interesting question. I’d say nature in general acts as a metaphor in my work, but I wouldn’t say the trees specifically symbolise something. Although, I read something the other day about how trees have a set of opposing criteria, or priorities. They have to send lots of their energy down to their roots but then also, they need to be sending energy upwards so that they can gain more energy from the sun. Again, there’s that polar kind of thing going on where they need to adopt a dual position. Perhaps that could be extended into a metaphor for the work.

JK I never knew that about trees.

TN Yes, there’s so much about them that’s interesting. I’ve got a couple of books about them. They’re fascinating organisms.

JK More alive than they seem.

TN Yes, I mean it’s so easy to apply features to them and to anthropomorphise them.

JK Well that’s why I initially asked the question about what they represent in your work. They’re such suggestive silhouettes and they’ve been used, for instance, as inspiration for the columns of cathedrals. It’s a very loaded subject.

TN Within the work, there’s a relationship that runs parallel to the idea of interior and exterior. The notion of being in a forest or a woodland holds both positions because you sometimes have the feeling of being inside, as your enclosed by the canopy of the trees, but then the space between branches implies an expansive space and infinity. There’s a dual position to be found within an enclosed woodland, which is partly what I’m referencing. It’s also talking about security, or perhaps the illusion of security.

JK So you think of a forest as an interior rather than an exterior space? Or both?

TN Yes, both, I think. It’s an interesting question and I’d probably have to spend a bit longer thinking about that. It’s also weather dependent, I think they feel very interior on a sunny day. In the cycle of a day, then, the lines between interior and exterior are blurred

JK In some of your previous works there are slightly abstracted faces. Are they references to people you know?

TN They’re never really people I know. I pull things in from the periphery. There’s lots of figures that creep in that are almost half recognizable as humans and as creatures. I’m really trying to pull some of those references back into the work and for a while they have disappeared. In a way, this upcoming exhibition is pulling on a few threads that have been running for a while and giving those ideas detail. There will be some creatures and figures in the work which is yet to be made for the show.

JK And I guess you don’t really think of humans as being a part of nature but of course we are.

TN Yes, I guess that was the point about something being human-like. There’s a blur there.

JK Who are some of your artistic influences?

TN This is a terrifying question. I have, in the past, just avoided this question.

JK Perhaps a top five?

(Both laugh).

TN Betty Woodman, who has a relationship to paintings and ceramics. In her work, there’s an interesting exchange between the two. That definitely exists within my own work. I found her after I started making this kind of work, which is one of the most rewarding things. When you realise “That’s why I like that.” Alan Davie, a Scottish painter, who does figurative and abstract works, which are heavily embedded with symbolism. I draw on his work for finding a place between abstraction and representation.

JK Who are the artists whose work you really like who don’t necessarily have any influence on your own work?

TN Grayson Perry would be one. He’s done so much for ceramics as a medium but they’re probably not comparable to my work. I wouldn’t say that I’m influenced by the things he’s influenced by. His elevation of the medium, though, would be an influence, I guess.

JK Has it given you confidence in what you’re doing?

TN I suppose I discovered his work a long time ago... and also references and inspiration have come at the right times for me to make the work I do. I’m currently thinking about material histories, so I like how Theaster Gates, for instance, pulls together ideas and materials into a certain context to say something really specific. He’s a huge influence in that sense.

JK Unlike a flat surface, which instantly reveals all the elements of a picture, vases disclose their contents gradually as the piece rotates, or as the viewer walks around it. Do you think that the spherical surface of a vessel creates an almost unavoidabe sense of narrative?

TN Yes, it’s interesting to think that they are read like that, because that’s how I make them. The surface reveals itself as I paint them, so the work is very much informed by narrative. “Narrative” is a descriptive word that I’ve avoided in the past. I suppose how the images are revealed allows for the chance of...

JK It sort of creates this sense of anticipation, I guess, rather than narrative.

TN Yes, there’s a sense of anticipation and “What’s next?” I very much work at them like that. Though I do have ways of approaching the work where I know what I’ll be doing, as you can see from the sketches around the room, but when it comes to actually doing it, I respond to the picture as much in the moment. When it’s on there, when it’s on a surface, it changes the image.

JK Does it matter to you which side of the vase is seen first? Do your ceramics have a front and a back?

TN Yes, sometimes purposefully I’ll decide which is the front and back. Sometimes in the process of making, the front and back will reveal themself by which is the most favourable side, or by which side people respond well to. I guess if you were to have it in your home or a certain setting, you’d always face it the way that you prefer.

JK But it’s not necessarily important that the audience sees one part first?

TN Sometimes, it is. If I’m making them with a specific reading in mind, I’ll definitely be positioning them in a certain way. I’ll make something more pronounced, but generally when they’re by themselves, I think you want to be looking at it in the round, so to speak. You want to be looking at it from all sides. I guess that’s where the surprising element will come from. There might be something there that is unexpected.

JK How does Also Rises differ from previous bodies of work that you’ve produced?

TN As I said, I’ve been pulling on some threads for a while. It’s a fantastic opportunity to expand in scale. I can do something in greater detail with the space at JGM Gallery. There’s a cohesion of material and process with this body of work.

JK I may be mistaken, but would you say that the work in this exhibition is a bit more sculpturally reduced and softer edged than some of your previous work?

TN Yes, I suppose. On this scale, you have moments where you can go hard or soft with the medium. Also breaking down forms into their more composite elements has allowed me to get closer to understanding my paintings and my ceramics, and understanding how they relate to each other more fluidly. In group shows you don’t have that as much because, of course, your work is paired with other people’s artworks. There’s an opportunity here to be more specific.

JK So this exhibition is really going to emphasise the relationship between your two dimensional paintings and your ceramics?

TN Yes. I suppose it’s the first time that I’ve had this many of both things in one place. It’s definitely, in part, about the arrival of both those things together.

JK This will be your first solo exhibition with JGM Gallery. Are you excited to be exhibiting with the gallery?

TN Absolutely. It’s a fantastic opportunity. I’m so grateful to be offered the space. It’s a fantastic gallery! I’m really excited to get everything in the space and out of the studio and... yes, see how it all looks.

Right Out The Treehouse