A Pneumatological Consensus? by John N Veronica on Saturday, 28 May 2011 at 12:26
In a pluralistic country, might we perhaps discern how much, on the whole, its people cooperate with the Spirit?
Might we observe how well its:
1) culture sanctifies
2) history orients
3) society empowers
4) economy heals &
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5) politics save ----------- its people?
Might the secular there manifest, for better or worse, a "pneumatological consensus" with its implicit theology, eschatology, ecclesiology, sacramentology & soteriology?
Of course, we are talking about proleptic (anticipatory) realizations of Kingdom values that are yet unfolding toward a future fullness.
This would clearly differ from any overly dialectical perspective that would essentially run counter to a robustly incarnational and profusely pneumatological approach to all of reality, even while recognizing significant differences in any degree of cooperation with the Spirit. Of course, failures to cooperate might result from either inabilities (due to poor formation or even deformative influences) or refusals (known to God alone).
Also, this might differ, somewhat, from any Niebuhrian realism that would draw too sharp a distinction between the eschatological and temporal significance of Gospel imperatives? For example, nonviolence then but not now?
Or from any exegetical interpretations that would too sharply distinguish between our 2
personal vocations and political statecraft? For example, coercion there but not here? Or that would suggest so-called dispensational distinctions? For example, signs & wonders then but not now, there but not here)?
And we might introduce a distinction between the Gospel's robustly unitive norms (how to live in loving intimacy with God and others) and general revelation's merely moral norms (how to live in harmony with God, others, creation & self, pursuing what's good and right, avoiding what's evil and wrong), morality realized as a by-product of the former, an endproduct of the latter, necessary in any case. Because of our radical human finitude and sinfulness (personal, social & institutional), any sanctioned departures from these unitive norms would represent, then, no theoretical theological capitulations (eisegesis even) but, rather, practical pastoral accommodations (for example, regarding any use of coercive violence). At any rate, these unitive norms - and not any essentially moral norms, which are otherwise transparent to human reason without the benefit of special revelation(s) differentiate the Gospel brand in the marketplace. Love is a suitable means to the ends of justice but its unitive aims clearly exceed those, even breaking open a new category.
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Leah Sophia and Warren Aldrich like this.
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Warren Aldrich I like the last sentence.
6 hours ago · Like
Brenda Craig Cantu You make my brain hurt
6 hours ago · Like · 2 people
John N Veronica that's why I tucked it away in the Notes rather than splashing it on the Wall ... to avoid traumatic brain injuries :) but if I get some help from others in understanding that stuff myself, I'll be able to write a good translation (which will be much longer but mo'better!) ...
5 hours ago · Like
Warren Aldrich It's very good brain exercise is what it is. Although do I aspire to be a Theo-wonk?
5 hours ago · Unlike · 1 person
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John N Veronica
I wonder, Warren. Philip Clayton suggests not, perhaps! I think there is a role for academic theology but sometimes we lose sight of the fact that theology is much more a practical science and much less a speculative theoretical one with implications that are far more performative than informative. If that's the case, and I believe it is, then its work should always take place within a pastoral framework with some meaningful attempt to translate it so others can DO something with it. Otherwise, it becomes sterile, idle ...
3 hours ago 路 Like
Warren Aldrich
I suppose if I throw out an opinion or thoughts than I'll also find out if I'm on point here.
First, In my very unhumble opinion, I think something has not worked well in the Church culture (if we trust Barna's studies), much less the society at large. I'm sure there has been an effect but it seems to be lessoning.
Anyway, if you are arguing for more, better, different pastoral care then I am out of this discussion because I am not in favor of the figure up front and the listeners down below. It's clearly traditional but not very arguably Biblical.
I'm reworking the quote into paragraphs because I find it hard to concentrate and understand when it's in block form. Brb.
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2 hours ago 路 Like
Warren Aldrich Btw, did I already say I like the last sentence? Another question; Do these norms, if they exist, really differentiate the Gospel brand or can we find good people doing good things for good reasons in many places? I'm beginning to wonder if there is such a thing as the "Gospel brand except in very discrete and individual lives making a difference in the world in very signifigant but unnoticed ways.
2 hours ago 路 Like
John N Veronica
The pastoral context was limited to the chore of translating theological jargon into practical living skills, so the better term may have been pragmatic rather than pastoral framework, and for the reasons you mentioned, Warren. At the same time, while I affirm (and encourage) noninstitutional vehicles, P2P outreach and such, I see them as complementary to and not over against institutional & (with qualifications) hierarchical approaches.
about an hour ago 路 Like
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Warren Aldrich
Forgive me if I hear you just saying that we have the Bible, then we have theological jargon, which then we need someone to translate that into "practical living skills?" Certainly I have run far afield of the OP but for me at least it's part and parcel of a problem? And your OP wonders about the impact or not of what it is we endorse as Christians.
Don't get me wrong, the beauty of your OP is that it succinctly and quickly states the thesis while incorporating many ideas associated with it. The problem for some of us is being familiar with the words and style.
about an hour ago 路 Like
John N Veronica
And keeping with the same theme, while addressing your question about norms, d'accord, again. The whole point of my exploration is that we might more broadly conceive just when and where and in whom we might encounter the Spirit! The unitive vs moral norm distinction moreso differentiates the Old & New Testaments, as I see it. Keep in mind, though, that 'good people doing good things for good reasons' characterizes moral norms. Our unitive norms entail a striving for loving intimacy, relating as lovers. So, what I am saying is that morality is not what separates the Gospel messages from other messages b/c anyone can do morality, which is transparent to human reason without the benefit of special revelation, which is why we see good people doing good things for good reasons everywhere. The Good News tells us that we are loved beyond imagining by a God, Who wants us to relate to Him as Daddy, or, if one prefers, as Betrothed.
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To some extent, this unitive striving can be distinguished from those practices of the East that are ordered toward gifting one with an experience of absolute unitary being, which I consider an intuition of intraobjective identity, our great causal connectedness, reality's immense solidarity. The unitive striving gifts us with an intersubjective, interpersonal intimacy. Both lead to compassion.
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John N Veronica
Well, Warren, let's back up. The thrust of the post is that the Spirit just might be at work in every history, every culture, every society, every economy and every political effort, albeit in varying degrees. And the efficacies of the Spirit are being realized not just in the past or future but now, not just here and here but there and there. And that the Spirit's invitation takes us -- not without but -- way beyond mere moral & practical concerns to robustly relational concerns. Good so far?
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John N Veronica BTW, yes, the fugue presented in the OP is very densely packed.
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Warren Aldrich 8
If you didn't have me before, the phrase; "we are loved beyond imagining by a God, Who wants us to relate to Him as Daddy, or, if one prefers, as Betrothed," gave me goosebumps. If we're back at the question in essense has this made any difference in our society I would say that probably only to the degree that these Betrothed has this truth inculcated. Which I think is a very small, sad degree. The powerfulness of that intimacy and tender love is traded for a fascination with the fear factor of guilt and hell. They don't live in harmony very well at all.
about an hour ago 路 Like
Warren Aldrich Thus deepsixing effectively the "robustly relational concerns."
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Warren Aldrich I'm good with it, I love it. I just think it exists superficially although in spots of hearts that get God's love it may be lived and transformative. I agree that degree of love is deeply affective of a society and culture.
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John N Veronica
Merton drew a distinction between humanization, where we move beyond being little animals, and socialization, where we learn to function in society, and transformation, where we "get" the Abba reality in our very bones (my way of putting it, not his). Our churches have fostered a great deal of socialization (still a work of the Spirit per Lonergan's view) but much less transformation per Merton (and Warren). Folks are still living in an Old Covenant mindset.
about an hour ago 路 Like
John N Veronica Now, returning to the question of theologians, pastors and, I suppose, ecclesiology?
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Warren Aldrich
Well, those that love those can have that. In the style of "any stick to beat a dog with," I only need enough to launch into my favorite subjecti and theme.
I may be a mystic but I'm also pragmatic. What works? How does it work? If's it's not, why not? If theologians, pastors and ecclesiology supported that I'd love it for it's function even if I don't feel drawn to any of the three, ok, except for my personal, more mystical theology. 10
Personally my psychological makeup may predispose me to have a bone to pick with the authority of all of the above so I try to keep a perspective on that.
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John N Veronica
What is at stake in adopting an interpretive stance toward reality involves relational values & relationships, evaluative posits of various types (truth, beauty, goodness, freedom/love), normative approaches (how to best avoid or acquire dis/values) and descriptive accounts (what is that?).
To some extent, we can roughly map these endeavors as science (descriptive-truth), philosophy (normative-goodness) and culture (evaluative-beauty). Religion is an interpretive stance that takes us meta- via creed (truth), cult-ivation (beauty), code (goodness) and community (relational).
The Spirit (based on Lukan Christology, too) orients, sanctifies, empowers, heals and saves us and these functions are manifest in our churches, respectively, via eschatology, theology, ecclesiology, sacrament and soteriology, mapping roughly over an otherwise, again respectively, secular history, culture, society, economy & body politic.
More commonly, we see the terms orthodoxy (truth), orthopathy (beauty), orthopraxy (goodness) and orthocommunio (community), as applied to our needs for believing, desiring, behaving and belonging.
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A New Testament emphasis would, in my view, for purposes of formative spirituality/development, while viewing all of these aspects as integral, would accord a certain primacy to belonging, which then forms our desires, which then elicit our behaviors which will nurture our interpretive stance or beliefs. And these beliefs engage our participatory imagination way more than our propositional cognition, being way more performative than informative, much more about practical living than theoretical speculation.
This does not correspond, however, to the Old Covenant mindset, which certainly values belonging, desiring, behaving and believing but seems to accord a primacy to believe this and behave like that and then you can belong (and what's a desire?).
55 minutes ago 路 Like
John N Veronica
What we are doing in our dialogue is a theological task. We are unpacking our densely packed jargonistic prose. There is nothing magical about jargon but it is an eminently useful tool of any trade that consists, usually, of a shorthand that is highly nuanced, hence saving time and space. When it is used, no problem, but it needs translating when being taken to a different audience. And that's all that was about. And this is aside from any discussion of ecclesiology or models of church, which, again, I don't see as mutually exclusive. I do see a role for experts in descriptive, normative and theological sciences but that doesn't drive my pneumatology or view of the Spirit at work in the world. We do want to collaboratively pursue the most nearly perfect articulation of truth in creeds/myths, the most nearly perfect celebrations of beauty in cult/liturgy, the most nearly perfect preservation of the good in code/law and the most nearly perfect enjoyment of fellowship in community and this will require our fostering of Lonergan's conversions: intellectual, affective, moral, sociopolitical and religious, all toward the end of optimal value-realization. In that, there are diverse ministries but one mission.
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45 minutes ago 路 Like
Warren Aldrich
I'm so with you. Have you written a book I can read? Take that both ways. (I amuse myself!)
"...belonging, which then forms our desires, which then elicit our behaviors which will nurture our interpretive stance or beliefs. And these beliefs engage our participatory imagination way more than our propositional cognition, being way more performative than informative, much more about practical living than theoretical speculation." Wouldn't that be something like living out of an identity?
I think most often in my 55 or so years of experience with 4 churches, mainly, right behavior was emphasized dramatically over belonging. Belonging was given lip service, pun intended, but never in an intimate, loving sense where vulnerability, transparency and devotion was the norm as it generally is with a loving parent and child.
44 minutes ago 路 Like
John N Veronica re: Wouldn't that be something like living out of an identity? 13
Wow, Warren! You sound like Thomas Merton :)
39 minutes ago 路 Like
Warren Aldrich Hey, between Nouwen, Tugwell, and Darin Hufford, I made a huge turnaround in my theology and thus my life. I prefer my Merton translated by Nouwen and Manning and others and they do a great job of it I think.
35 minutes ago 路 Unlike 路 1 person
Warren Aldrich Flattery will get you everywhere!!
34 minutes ago 路 Like
John N Veronica
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I did co-author an article with my favorite theologian, Amos Yong, last year. Msg me your e-mail and I'll send it along. I did a LOT of jargon-translating for the editors but it is still for the guild, so to speak. Give it a try; it has highlights you'll like and a good bit of Merton. If that works for you, I do have a draft manuscript I'll share, again kinda for the guild. But my desire is to get it all translated for a general audience one day; that desire is not a passion yet ;)
29 minutes ago 路 Like
Warren Aldrich
Damn! After all these hours and my taking your note and reparagraphing it I go to your profile and there it is the way you set it up. Such an assistance to understanding. Wikipedia on a several words and phrases (and the conversation with you) have helped as well. I love words just as words and also the meanings they convey especially when it's meaning that is life changing or affirming or explanatory as your note is.
warrenaldrich@hotmail.com.
29 minutes ago 路 Like
Warren Aldrich
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I think a certain amount of desire to dig for hidden gold sweetens the reward and I don't enjoy simplistic thinking any more. I once started reading National Review and was amazed at how many sentences I could read without having one iota ...See more
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John N Veronica Oh, I see what happened. You were reading it on my wall. Well, the teasing out and unpacking is precisely what I was hoping to do. It is easier for me to do that in dialogue rather than imaginary dialogue. So, please know how grateful I am for the engagement and friendship, Warren. And be sure to check out my New Hampshire-inspired (Lake Winnipesaukee ) video: Ain't No Better Way.
I affirm the mystic charism, too.
21 minutes ago 路 Like
Warren Aldrich Interesting. I am much more inspired and fruitful in conversation. I surprise myself with what I say. :) This form of chat is much better for me as well because I 16
can think things through with a little time.
I just now looked at it on your wall. Prior to this I was just reading it from my posting of it which just packs it into one dense paragraph. I look forward to the video and writings.
17 minutes ago 路 Like
Warren Aldrich Sadly my posting of your note elicited no response on my wall other than a comment from my brother who loves to provoke me. :( I was looking forward to some conversation around it.
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