Emmaus Salford – A History by Len Grant

Emmaus Salford – A History The very beginnings of Emmaus Salford are a little hazy. There is a suggestion that a meeting between Emmaus UK and Salford City Council’s then chief executive, John Willis was set up in 2004. Which side instigated that meeting is unclear. But certainly the idea of a self-contained community for previously homeless people that contributed to the local community through social enterprise did not fall on deaf ears and John Willis gave his ‘in principle’ support. Willis was the forward-thinking Chief Executive of Salford Council for 13 years during which time he fought for funding to develop Salford Quays and The Lowry arts centre in particular. He was acutely aware of the city’s social problems and would have seen economic regeneration as an important means of alleviating those problems. The Emmaus model would have been attractive to him. Other meetings followed and the Council officially agreed to support Emmaus UK in setting up of a community somewhere within the city. For Salford City Council the partnership made a lot of sense. Salford’s homelessness level was way above the national average and apparently, at that time, 45% of those homeless were not, for whatever reason, eligible for housing through the Council. The creation of an Emmaus community in the city, offering accommodation and work opportunities for single people, would make a significant impact on the Council’s Housing Strategy to reduce homelessness. But there were other benefits too. By renovating at least one redundant building the charity would contribute to the City’s regeneration targets; by setting up a charity shop it would add to the recycling figures and create a supply of quality used goods for sale; and by providing employment and training it would impact on the Council’s economic outcomes. In Council papers reporting to local councillors on the housing committee, Council officers quoted research figures from Cambridge University that claimed that each Emmaus community can save the taxpayer up to £600,000 (and each companion over £26,000) through unemployment benefits no longer claimed, savings in the health service and criminal justice system and other social services. It was a win-win, which is why the Council put its weight behind helping to set up Emmaus Salford. But for Emmaus that partnership was unique. No other community had effectively been set up by a local authority.

When representatives from Salford City Council later attended an annual Emmaus UK National Assembly they noted they were the only local authority there. By the middle of 2005 a steering group was set up that included Council officers, local professionals and representatives from Salford organisations that might be able to help. It would be another three years before Emmaus Salford was formally set up as registered charity with a board of trustees chaired by Councillor Val Burgoyne. The City Council commitment to setting up an Emmaus community was highlighted when it invited Emmaus UK President, Terry Waite CBE to visit Salford to address its elected members in June 2005. As a result the steering group organised an ‘Inauguration of Emmaus in Salford’ event three months later to raise awareness of the the project and promote the benefits to the wider community. This awareness-raising campaign continued over the following months with steering group members being invited to give talks to local organisations like The University of Salford, The Rotary Club and the Seedley and Langworthy Trust. The momentum was growing but, as yet, the charity had no base, nowhere for its future companions to call home. The Council knew what they wanted for Emmaus. Their committee papers set out a list of requirements and factors that should be considered when assessing properties. The building, it said, should be at least 20,000 square feet (2,200 square metres) and should have the potential to include: a residential community area; individual rooms; a guest room; kitchen and dining areas; community rooms; adequate accommodation for a community leader, deputy and volunteers; a business area including retail selling areas, workshops, storage, sorting areas and waste disposal areas. It said that the building needed to act not only as a suitable home for the companions but as a site for a successful business. It had to be accessible to customers and have the potential to attract passing trade. There should be, said the report, parking for up to 20 cars and access for van loading and unloading. Although 100% supportive of the Emmaus ethos and potential benefits, the Council were aware that not everyone would be of the same view. ‘Sensitivities of local communities who may have negative experiences of similar projects will need to be taken into account,’ it wrote.

Shopping around for the right building One of the first properties the steering group considered was, in fact, a former Council Social Services Day Centre that had become ‘surplus to requirements’ and had lain empty since January 2006. Duchy House on

Brindleheath Road was behind Pendleton Church, next to a residential area and Bolton Road playing fields. It would have provided the residential and workshop element of the project and a former Co-op retail unit on Gerrard Gerald Street in the Littleton Road area had been earmarked as the community’s first shop. By the time Ian Orrell joined the Emmaus Salford trustees in 2007 plans were well advanced to buy Duchy House from the Council. £120,000, in two instalments, would secure a 250-year lease. “It had suffered quite a bit from vandalism and break-ins while it was left empty,” recalls Ian, “and we quickly realised that, with the purchase price and the necessary renovation, it would have cost us about £2million which was out of the question. “The old Co-op shop was in a good location,” he recalls, “but that was also in a terrible state and needed a huge amount of work doing on it. The owners were asking £250,000. We had a small contribution from the Seedley and Langworthy Trust and I’d raised nearly £7,000 from a Land’s End/John O’Groats sponsored walk I did that summer but we’d still need a substantial bank loan. They wouldn’t budge on price so we walked away from that too.” A chemistry teacher at Manchester Grammar School for 34 years, Ian was familiar with Emmaus before he joined the board of trustees after his retirement. At his school he had not only been responsible for coordinating his own school’s community work but also that of the entire independent school sector. “Manchester Grammar School has a long history of setting up projects in the community,” he says. “We worked for many years with Canon David Wyatt of St Paul with Christ Church and would bring boys of all backgrounds to his parish so they could appreciate the challenges in the inner city.”

Trustee Ian Orrell recalls the many disaapointments while searching for the right property

In 2009 and still with no premises, one of the board members at that time, Mark Abbott, suggested there was a shop on Seaford Road that had become available. It was owned by Salford Council and could be leased at a peppercorn rent. Much smaller than their original aspirations, the board agreed to take it on as their first charity shop and at least begin to generate some revenue. “It was staffed by volunteers and trustees,” says Ian, “and, because it had been a charity shop before, we were also about to recruit some of the previous volunteers to work for us. Money started coming in. Because I was working as treasurer at that time I remember that in the first six months we got about £1000. But then people started to get to know us and the quality of the goods improved hugely and, all of a sudden, things started taking off. In the next twelve months we raised £8,000 and then £12,000, then £14,000.” The ‘start-small’ strategy worked and has been passed onto other Emmaus

organisations coming afterwards. “It was a good idea,” says Ian, “and it’s been taken on board by others. That way you develop teamwork and involve your companions – if you have them by then – in generating income.” But all this time the Salford trustees were searching for the right residential premises to start a proper Emmaus community. Again and again Ian and his colleagues would find somewhere they thought was suitable but would be out-bid and knocked back. A house with large rooms on the corner of Knowle Street and Bury New Road seemed ideal. It had been a women’s refuge but was on the market for £440,000, more than the charity could really afford. The owner accepted on offer from another buyer who paid cash. A property on Ducie Street would also have made a perfect community building but, because it was in the River Irwell flood control zone, the local authority insisted that the electrical sockets all be moved above a certain height on the wall. The re-wiring estimate was again beyond the fledgling charity’s reach.

At last a breakthrough By now everyone were becoming despondent. “We never thought we’d get anywhere,” says Ian, “We felt very down. I think in all my time at Emmaus Salford, that was the biggest challenge. “And then we were made aware of this place. It had originally been a older person’s home in the 60s and then vacated. Then the Council made it into offices for their Children’s Services Department before it was left empty again. When we came to look round it was in a terrible state. It was dingy, the corridors were a horrible yellowy-brown colour, it looked dreadful. “Compared to the some of the other places we had seen where we could immediately see the potential to make a community, we were going to need a lot of convincing that this was right for us.” But the trustees were convinced and, this time, other things began to fall into place. Through some political lobbying and tough negotiations, the Council-owned building was offered to the charity at a peppercorn rent but Emmaus still had to find £200,000 to knock it into shape. Emmaus UK had successfully bid for over £300,000 from the governmentbacked Empty Homes Community Grants Programme for other Emmaus communities around the country and, as funds were still available, Emmaus Salford were able to piggy back on the programme and won £175,000 in the second round of grant awards. At the same time Steering Group member, Fran Frost was retiring from her City Council role but accepted an 18-month paid role to act as development

manager for the refurbishment of what was to become Emmaus House. “She did a superb job,” recalls Ian. “She had all the contractors and volunteers working exactly to spec throughout the whole project.” The City Council’s joint venture company Urban Vision provided design and management support while a whole band of volunteers, including Emmaus companions from nearby communities, helped bring the dilapidated building back to life. “One tremendous bonus was having Network Rail on board,” says Ian. “They gave us a call to say they were looking for a project to work on as part of their Corporate Social Responsibility. We said, look no further. They had joiners, plumbers and decorators who gave us countless hours and saved us a huge amount of money.” Work began in December 2013 on turning council offices back into bedrooms; creating kitchens, lounges, bathrooms and office accommodation. The shop area and storage rooms followed and everything was completed by April the following year. At last, after nearly a decade of tenacity, diplomacy and disappointment, Emmaus Salford was ready to become a fully-operational community, able to offer accommodation, and ultimately employment, to the homeless.

A community leader is recruited Just as the physically transformation was getting underway the trustees appointed a community leader who would build the Emmaus Salford community and make their ten-year aspiration into a reality.

Volunteers joined companions from nearby communities to transform Emmaus House

For the previous 15 years Simon Locke had worked for Barnardos, developing resources for projects in Manchester and the North West. If a Barnardos group working with young people, for instance, wanted to launch a self esteem-boosting multimedia project then it would be Simon’s job to get it off the ground. When his role was made redundant and none of the alternatives he was offered were appealing, he decided to leave the charity and look elsewhere. “When I saw the job advert it had everything I wanted: making the best with very little resource and building something from scratch. It would be a challenge but I knew it was a fantastic opportunity to build something I could be proud of.” Simon joined Emmaus Salford in November 2014. “It was cold, I remember that. There was no heating in the building. It was just a shell, an empty shell.” But he didn’t fill the place with companions straight away. “We opened the shop in April 1014 when we had a local volunteer driving our old blue van for us and another behind the counter. We recruited Chris Carlin,

Simon Locke: “This job was exactly the challenge I was looking for.”

who had previously been a companion at another community, as assistant community leader. “There was an expectation that we’d open the doors and immediately fill the place with 25 companions. But you can’t do that. We’re not a hostel, we’re not emergency accommodation. We were building a sustainable community and that takes time.” Simon’s aspirations and timescale were not shared with all the trustees and this was to lead to a crisis in the charity’s governance further down the line. Meanwhile Salford City Council’s successful partnership with Emmaus Salford was recognised by the organisation that had supplied the lion’s share of the refurbishment funding. In September 2014 they were ‘highly commended’ in the Empty Homes Awards for that year. But now that the building was essentially complete and a community was about to develop, the Council took a step back as it had always intended to do. Emmaus Salford was created on the assumption that one day it would stand on its own two feet, and now was that time. The community’s first companion moved in during October 2014. “Harry Dickson was a challenging character, a bit of a chancer,” recalls Simon fondly, “but I got on with him really well. He was hilarious. He taught me a lot about what we weren’t going to do.” For the last nine months Harry had been travelling by bus from Burnley to Salford – a 60-mile round trip – to help with the refurbishment. A previous companion at other UK communities, Harry had worked alongside tradesmen and volunteers to renovate what would be his next home. According to a press release published at the time, Harry had grown up in Salford before becoming homeless. He moved to London where he worked as a banqueting porter for seven years and then returned North to work as a decorator with his dad.

Companion Harry Dickson commuted daily from Burnley on the bus to help

Suffering with a range of illnesses including epilepsy and diabetes, Harry had depended on the stability of Emmaus communities for much of his adult life. He stayed at Salford for 12 months and has since moved on, now living in Bradford.

Core companions bring their own expertise Harry was soon followed by other core companions: Terry Brooke, Karl Nagy and Pat Ekins who were brought in from other communities specifically to support Simon. “They were the pioneers,” says Simon, “it was their experiences in living and working in other communities that informed the early decisions we made.” Karl had valuable insight not only as a companion but also as an employee in two different roles for Emmaus. He’d known the charity for seven years and had knowledge to share. “I’ve worked all my life,” he says. “I was at Leyland Autos in Preston for 12 years and had a spell running my own business. I’ve been married and also a single parent, looking after my daughter. “When my daughter was 17 she left to study nursing and then found herself a job. So I found myself rattling around, alone. I went off the rails after my mum died, I stopped going into work and started being a bit of an idiot. I did things I shouldn’t have done. Bills weren’t getting paid and I ended up having to leave.

Karl was one of the ‘pioneers’ who informed early decision-making

“I stayed with so-called friends for a while but once my money ran out they weren’t friends any more. That’s when I ended up in the Preston Emmaus.” Karl’s skills were quickly recognised and after three months as a companion he was employed to supervise other companions. But his recovery was intermittent and, after a spell living and working independently, he was back with Emmaus, working in the Medway community as a driver. “I’ve also spent some time driving for Emmaus Textiles. The idea was to collect all the clothes – from all the stores – that were unsuitable to be sold and then that surplus would be sold on and make its way to Africa or wherever. “I would drive a wagon around the country visiting every single Emmaus, quite often staying overnight, picking up textiles.” The recycling venture, however, didn’t work out. The market dropped and collection became unviable. But the touring around was useful for Karl. “You’d see what works and what doesn’t. And, having lived in two or three other communities, you get an idea of what can be changed for the better. When I first came to Salford I looked at the logistics and how the shop was operating. When they first started they had no model to work from and were pricing stuff based on the British Heart Foundation shop nearby. They were about three times the price. So I adopted pricing from other Emmaus’ and that works better.”

With his knowledge of other shops Karl also re-designed the shop and introduced a paper docket system for logging collections and deliveries. “I also brought in the zone system for the vans. On any one day we’ll only drive to a maximum of two areas of town. That way it’s much more efficient and we’re not wasting time or diesel. Eventually I’d like a computerised docket system but for now it works well.” Pat Ekins first become homeless in Preston. “I can’t tell you why. I don’t want to tell you why. I’d never been homeless before. It was pretty bad. I had no support from my family because of what had gone on. “I was on the streets for a week. It was horrible. I was in a park at night, frightened to go to sleep. You didn’t know what might happen. Someone told me I should go and claim benefits – I’d never claimed benefits before in my life – and so I went to the JobCentre. They told me about a soup kitchen and from there I was referred to Emmaus Preston. That was seven years ago.” Emmaus Preston, Pat recalls, was run by two ex-army soldiers. “It was very regimental,” she says, “but it was good. I got back on my feet and stayed for about 18 months.” She then spent a year in Hastings, which she found too quiet, before moving to Colchester. “They have two big warehouses and two shops, so it was really busy and we were right in the middle of town so everything was in walking distance. Then I heard this places was opening and they were looking for core companions.” By this time Pat had re-established contact with her youngest daughter who was pregnant and living in Huddersfield, so Pat was keen to get back up North. “It was challenging at first. I came up for a 10-day ‘holiday’ to see what was what. I’d been with Harry in Preston so I knew exactly what he was like. He was all right, he tried his best. He’d done a lot of work on this place, redecorating and helping out. At that time he was still travelling back and forth from Burnley and one of the other lads was camping in the garden.” Once the bedrooms were opened Pat moved in permanently and began work in the shop and kitchen. “I already knew Karl and, because he had worked on the vans before, he worked out the structure for all of that. I’d had experience in the shop and with sorting out donations, so I got on with that. “Putting a good team together is pretty much essential for setting up a new Emmaus,” says Pat. “Get that right and everything else should fall into place. And the location. I think the location is really important. I’ve been in communities that are hidden away in the sticks and you just don’t get as much business. We’re right next to the precinct here so that helps a lot

Pat’s previous experience in other communities proved invaluable

with passing trade. The more customers we have, the more profit we make and the more people we can help. “But, at first no one knew we were here so we painted some old wooden chairs and hung them in our trees. People can’t pronounce Emmaus so they used to call us the place with the chairs in the trees. It worked.” Typically more men become homeless than women and for some time Pat was the only woman companion at Emmaus Salford. “Yes, I suppose over these last couple of years I’ve become something of a mum-figure to some of the younger lads. Sometimes it’s good, sometimes it’s not so good. There’s always someone knocking on my door, always. It’s good that they come to me but they don’t always like my advice. I tell it like it is but we never fall out. It’s just like any other family I suppose.”

An arms-length approach All Emmaus communities in the UK are autonomous charities with their own board of trustees and obligations to the Charities Commission. As happened in Salford, any group of socially-minded individuals can approach Emmaus UK and ask to set up a community in their area. There are now 29 communities across the country and each will have had to meet the criteria set out by the umbrella organisation.

It’s not a one-size-fits-all for Emmaus communities, there are many different models

Not all Emmaus communities are the same. There are many different models, some with non-residential companions who live in their own accommodation but are the workforce for the community. During the development of Emmaus Salford the trustees didn’t always see their relationship with the national body as a positive one. “The trustees sometimes viewed Emmaus UK as the interfering uncle,” recalls Simon, “and yes, sometimes they were interfering but I’d rather have that than no involvement at all. Remember, our board at that time had lots of enthusiasm but little first hand experience of homelessness. “But no one, including Emmaus UK, told us what you needed to build a successful community; how you chose the right companions; how you built community spirit. There’s absolutely no rule book. That’s something we’ve had to work out for ourselves.”

A time to celebrate Twelve months after the shop had opened and seven months after Harry arrived, the board of trustees welcomed Emmaus UK President Terry Waite CBE to officially open Emmaus House in May 2015. With celebration cake and obligatory ribbon he and chair Councillor Val Burgoyne were joined by companions, supporters and representatives from the local community to mark the hard work that so many had put into get the charity up and running.

“No one told us how to build a successful Emmaus community.”

“That was a great occasion,” recalls long-term trustee Janet Davies, “and the following year we were honoured with the Queen’s Award for Voluntary Service which is the highest award any voluntary organisation can get.” Janet and fellow trustee Ian attended a Buckingham Palace garden party to receive the award and later that summer the charity were guests of the Lord Lieutenant of Greater Manchester at an event at Gorton Monastery by way of recognition. On the face of it things were going well for Emmaus Salford but, as Janet recalls, in the background there were problems. “I’ve been here from the beginning more or less, and I still get upset thinking about it. You don’t expect that sort of boardroom bitterness with a charity.” “If I had my time again,” says Simon, “I would have challenged the board earlier. The dilemma was we had a board of perfectly well-meaning people who had come together because they had identified a problem and set about doing something about it. None had been a trustee for a homeless charity before and few had any practical experience of working with the homeless. They may have been the right people to develop this thing but they weren’t necessarily the right people to take it forward.

Trustee Janet Davies: “Receiving that award was a real highlight.”

“Some on the board were scared of seeing the business as being as important as the community. If we don’t have a business, we don’t have a community. And if we don’t have a good community, then we don’t have a business. “I have to motivate my workforce of 25 homeless people with all their issues that previously made them homeless. Then I need to get out there and promote us to the outside community.” This clash of personalities led to departures from the board. Councillor Val Burgoyne, who had led the team through disappointment after disappointment in the search for suitable premises, was replaced by Hillary Dunn. Without doubt this was an unsettling and stressful time for all but, as trustee and treasurer Gordon Travis points out, these growing pains are not uncommon for charities. “Getting the balance right between the trustees and the board is often the biggest issue,” he explains. “Even if they get on well personally, there is often tension around how much authority you delegate to the senior member of staff and how much is reserved for the trustees to maintain control. And that isn’t static, it moves as the organisation grows. There has to be some flexibility.” “Dealing with the expectations of the trustees has been my biggest challenge so far,” admits Simon, “more difficult than dealing with the problems faced by the companions. Some people had their own clear ideas about how we should save people. But we’re not here to save anyone.

We’re here to work with them so they can save themselves. I’m no knight in shining armour. “Our job is not to ‘fix broken companions’,” he continues. “If we pander to someone who has already been beaten down by the ‘system’ and told that they are rubbish, then they’ll never move on.”

Steering the ship If the setting up of Emmaus Salford has been dogged by setbacks, controversies and ultimately success then the continued development has been no less of a rollercoaster ride. The last three years, by any measure, have been frenetic and the future of this community as well as the whole Emmaus model in the UK is looking increasingly under threat. From an empty shell of a building, one small shop and no companions in 2014, Emmaus Salford has grown into a thriving community supporting 20 companions and a business turning over three times its original forecast. Each month an average of 160 deliveries and collections are made throughout the city and beyond.

“We’re not here to save anyone.. . we’re here to work with them so they can save themselves.”

As well as the main shore at Emmaus House, and the original shop on Seaford Road, a new store in Swinton has opened which will only add to the bottom line. And most recently Lucie’s Pantry, where struggling families can buy discounted fresh food and groceries, has opened at Fitzwarrren Street. An extra store and the social supermarket also mean there’s more work to be done and the community can now take in more companions to fill all the available bedrooms at Emmaus House. As well as sorting and selling goods, cleaning the living accommodation, making meals, collecting and delivering, the companions also put the hours in supporting others. “Part of the Emmaus ethos is about taking solidarity action outside in the wider community,” explains Simon. “It’s about supporting people who are worse off than ourselves.” The charity was asked if it could help a local elderly resident who had just moved into a new flat that was in desperate need of re-decoration. “She had to go into hospital for a week which gave us the opportunity to give the place a makeover,” recalls Simon. “Two companions repainted the entire flat and we paid for everything. We do that sort of thing because we can and it’s good to do.” Unlike the revenue-generating stores, the Lucie’s Pantry project is another example of solidarity action that helps cement Emmaus within its own community. The three-day-a-week membership supermarket is funded by Emmaus and by Salford housing providers and also helps companions boost their CVs with valuable food retailing experience.

Emmaus Salford is now a thriving community exceeding its business targets

There’s no time limit to a companion’s stay at an Emmaus but most have an eye on a life beyond the community. All companions have the opportunity to attend training courses that give them extra skills and qualifications. There’s food hygiene for those working in the kitchen and manual handling for those on the vans. One companion has also been funded to pass their driving test and another has been supported in attending music college. “It’s really difficult to explain how a community works, but it does,” says Simon. “Why is our community different to others? Because every community leader interprets it in their own way. I’ve taken the good practices from other communities I’ve visited and given them a twist.” This ‘twist’ seems to be working. “I get a great deal of satisfaction looking back at what we’ve achieved over the years,” reflects trustee Ian, “and also at what Simon has achieved. It’s a very difficult job.. dealing with people’s personal problems.. handling some very thorny situations. He’s achieved a helluva lot.” So what makes a successful Emmaus community? Simon likens his role as community leader to being captain of a huge oil tanker: “You might be the person who stands on top and says we’re turning right now,” he says, “but you need a whole load of others, right down to the engine room, to make it happen.” At Salford Simon is supported by three other staff members. Core companion Karl Nagy is now employed full time as resources manager and lives outside the community. Sarah Brown got to know the charity as a university placement student and has now been appointed as part-time pastoral care worker. Finance officer Rachel Richardson gained her financial experience from working with her husband’s business, but she brought much more than her bookkeeping expertise with her to Salford. “For six years I looked after my mother who had dementia. During that time one of my brothers – there are four boys and two girls in our family – moved back in with our mum. We knew he had a drinking problem but no one really understood the extent of that problem. Essentially I ended up looking after an elderly women with dementia and an alcoholic.

Rachel Richardson: “It gives you more empathy if you’ve lived it.”

“So now I think I understand more. It gives you a bit more empathy if you’ve lived it.”

An uncertain future Three years after opening and 13 years after the idea was first suggested, it might be expected that the challenges for Emmaus Salford have been largely resolved. It would not be unreasonable to expect the charity to look forward to a period of stability, of chugging along nicely. Ironically however, the biggest threat to the organisation now comes not from within but from

afar. Treasurer Gordon Travis explains: “Because companions work for the community they don’t claim any unemployment benefit and we claim their housing benefit off the council. Each week we give each companion some pocket money – £40 – and put an extra £5 away for them in a savings account. “But the new Universal Credit will change all that. Under the new regulations, to get the housing benefit you also need to be looking for work and claiming unemployment benefit. So it doesn’t fit our model.” Losing the housing benefit for over 20 companions each month would be a significant blow to the charity’s income. “Between the takings from the shops and the housing benefit we are more than covering our costs at the moment,” says Gordon. “The Emmaus model is such a positive one, I can’t imagine the Government will put us under that sort of threat, particularly with the recent rise in homelessness. “I suspect the local authorities will be given a pot of money from central government that we will have to bid for. We’ll probably get less, because that is how it goes, but we’ll probably get something.”

Treasurer Gordon Travis explains how changes in the benefit system threaten the Emmaus model

Simon is less optimistic and is already considering creative ways in which to generate lost income and sustain the community. “We could take on social service or cleaning contracts perhaps; put a ‘container village’ in our car park to house homeless families; or set up some sort of urban farm and offer birthday parties to local children where they can pet the animals. “In another five years time I’d like to think we’d have another community set up in south Manchester, a furniture superstore, a shop in affluent Altrincham and an extension added to Emmaus House. I’d like us to be making as much money as possible so we can work with at least 60 residential companions and more besides. “Having a completely uncertain future – as we did four and half years ago – means there are no boundaries to what we could do and no limits to what we could achieve.”

Len Grant, January 2018