Teaming up for Inclusive Sizing

by Ali Gray

Megan Banker and Rochelle Murphy, both Mazamas, are two of six advisors working with gear and apparel brand Outdoor Research (OR) on a new product line. The line will feature technical outdoor gear in inclusive sizing: XS–3XL in fall 2021, followed by 1X–3X and 16W–24W in spring 2022. Our interview with Megan and Rochelle discusses the need for inclusive sizing in the outdoor industry and their involvement with the project.

Tell us a little about yourselves. How did you first get interested in the outdoors? What's the main way or reason you get outside now?

Megan Banker: Hey! I’m 32 years old and grew up in Central California. I used to go car camping with my family growing up, but never actually did much hiking or other outdoor adventuring. I moved to Portland from Dallas, Texas, after grad school and joined Meetup to find people to hike with. I met some wonderful women through a women’s hiking meetup and went on a midnight climb of Mount St. Helens. After that I was hooked! Getting outside now is a way to get back to myself. I’m a chiropractor and own my wellness clinic, so I’m always busy and taking care of others. I love serving my community but I also need to take time to ground myself. I also deal with a lot of anxiety, depression, and panic disorder, so getting outside is a form of therapy for me.

Rochelle Murphy: I grew up in Portland, so started experiencing the outdoors from a young age. I did the environmental camps and outdoor school and all that, and went camping and fishing and hiking with my dad. I dabbled in rock climbing when I was in undergrad, then I moved to England for 12 years and didn’t do much outdoorsy stuff. After my divorce, when I found myself back in Portland, I took to the mountains to rediscover myself and move past that difficult phase of my life. It became my therapy as well as my playground. Now I mainly get outside to clear my head and find the balance that I’m lacking in my daily life. How are you involved with the Mazamas?

MB: I’ve been pretty involved with the Mazamas since I first took BCEP in 2017. I’ve been on various committees and am currently working on finishing my Leadership Development work to become a climb leader.

RM: I was volunteering with the youth outreach program before COVID. I have yet to return, although I’d like to. I have a young child and my mom has been in chemo, so I’m being extra COVID-cautious, but hopefully once we turn that around I can go back to volunteering. I really loved watching the young generations discover

Everything about this project has been intentional, which makes it super different from other projects

I’ve consulted on. When we first met with OR, they had us present our favorite pieces of clothing and gear (across any brand) and also talk about what was missing. They asked us about our experiences in the outdoors and really listened to what we needed. ”

climbing, and that they are capable and brave!

In the media, and for many of us in our own minds, we see a pretty homogeneous group of people portrayed in the outdoors (white, often male, thin, able-bodied). This is especially true as the level of skill or expertise required in the activity increases. Why is this idea of what an “athlete” looks like wrong?

MB: It’s not necessarily wrong. It’s not wrong to be white, thin, or able-bodied. What’s wrong is only showing one piece of the puzzle. When marketing campaigns only show images of one type of person in the outdoors, it’s human nature for us to think that is the only kind of person who can do those things. When we think only one type of person does an activity, we start to only hear those voices, or make gear for those bodies. We make that image the standard. The standard in outdoor adventuring, especially climbing, has become one-dimensional and we need to change that.

RM: I’m a big proponent of Health At Any Size (HAES), and I think trying to categorize certain body types as athletic is a fallacy. Plenty of plus-sized bodies are healthy and capable. I know some amazing people doing amazing things in their sports with “non traditional” bodies. The media needs to widen the lens and focus on the diversity of people in sport, and that goes for body sizes as well as People of Color (POC). There are many barriers people face when trying to get outside, like cost, location or transportation, time, and inadequate representation. How does the limited availability of clothing and gear in plus sizing also inhibit access, physically and/or emotionally?

MB: When you don’t have access to clothing and gear for climbing it is detrimental physically and emotionally. Emotionally, you begin to internalize that this space is not for you. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve received a message like “I never thought I could rock climb because I’ve never found a harness that fits.” I’ve been in situations where I’ve begun to talk negatively to myself because I was wearing jackets that were made for a man’s body so they were so tight in the chest that I couldn’t breathe. Physically, having access to appropriate gear is a safety issue. Climbing is all about mitigating risk. When access to proper fitting and functioning gear is limited, the risk increases.

RM: I have never been a person to let something like finding pants stop me if I want to do a thing. I just either make what I have work the best it can, or I find it. I shopped in the men’s section a lot for things like snow pants. I struggled to find a climbing harness and eventually ended up with a men’s harness. I can see how this could be discouraging and distressing to some. It’s not a nice feeling to walk into a store and have like one option in your size or gender. Often that one option was the most expensive. There may be some people who don’t want to shop in the men’s section, or can’t afford the sole plus-size option. Outdoor gear is already expensive enough. It may also put added pressure on people to lose weight in unhealthy ways in order to fit into the gear they want. The only real way to solve this problem is expanding clothing lines to be realistic.

You're both advisors on a project with Outdoor Research to make technical clothing and gear in inclusive sizing. What types of products will be available in the new lineup? Was there anything intentional about choosing those particular items? What makes them stand out?

MB: Everything about this project has been intentional, which makes it super different from other projects I’ve consulted on. When we first met with OR, they had us present our favorite pieces of clothing and gear (across any brand) and also talk about what

Megan on Mt. Thielsen. Photo: Unknown

was missing. They asked us about our experiences in the outdoors and really listened to what we needed. Then they went to work to figure out how they could create a technical product line that would allow us to dress from base layer to shell layer completely. No other outdoor company offers this. In order to accomplish this, they had to completely redo their sizing. They realized that if they wanted to create a product that would work for plus-size bodies, they would first have to re-do their grading for straight-size bodies. This whole project has been going on for about a year and a half behind the scenes because of all the things they needed to change about their sizing formulas. It’s been really incredible to watch and be a part of. Items that will be part of the launch include their most popular pants, the Ferrosi and the Cirque, puffy jacket, two types of rain shells, a lightweight wind shell, sun protective layers, hiking shorts, plus-size gaiters and neck buff, rain pants, and a few others I’m sure I’m forgetting.

RM: There is a wide range of products in the new line coming out. Technical gear for every season! I think OR really wanted to make sure there is something for everyone. Pants, puffy jackets, shorts, rain gear, tank tops … it’s great to have items in technical fabrics that actually fit where they need to. I also have quite a long inseam, and so far have had no problem with the pants in the collection hitting in the right place. They really listened to the feedback they were given and tweaked items to make sure what they were putting out was the best it could be. With plenty of decent-sized pockets! A girl can never have enough pockets! The OR website mentions that the new products will help experts excel in their outdoor objectives and invite newcomers into the outdoor community. In what ways will the products help you in your adventures? Would access to similar products when you got started in the outdoors have made a difference in your lives? MB: I’ve already gotten some of the products and they are incredible. I was shocked when I put on a puffy for the first time and didn’t have to suck in my belly and had full range of motion in my arms. I actually asked my husband “is this what it feels like to be comfortable?” Plus-size people have just been putting up with whatever works for so long. Our expectations for outdoor clothing is literally on the floor, so having access to clothing that was made specifically for our bodies is liberating in so many ways. Now, instead of focusing on how uncomfortable I am or how I can’t do a certain movement because my clothes are too tight, I can focus on whatever adventure I’m on. I think if I had access to better clothing and gear when I first started that I wouldn’t have spent so much time doubting if I belonged. Feeling like an imposter in the outdoor space is something a lot of people can relate too. Being a plussize person without access to gear that fits right just adds to the list of reasons why I told myself I didn’t belong. RM: I think some of the items will make movement less restrictive. Having something that fits right in the waist, hips, and thighs makes it so much easier to find the flexibility you need when hiking or climbing. I spent a lot of time climbing in Old Navy leggings, which was less than ideal. I even did Mount St. Helens in them! So I’m stoked to finally have technical pants that I will feel comfortable in, that can take me where I want to go. Megan, you and two fellow OR advisors started the Climb Big community. What is Climb Big, and how can people get involved?

MB: Climb Big is an initiative that was started to increase awareness of plus-size bodies in the climbing space. It started when my friend Sam Ortiz began hosting plus-size climbing meetups in Seattle. I loved what she was doing so I joined up with a friend of mine here in Portland to start doing meetups in Portland. Through Planet Granite, we were able to teach people in bigger bodies how to rock climb in a safe, welcoming environment. Planet Granite was really great and has even started to purchase plus-size climbing harnesses for all of their gyms across the country because of the work we’ve done. Climb Big has grown into an Instagram page and Facebook group where people can find climbing partners, ask gear questions, or have a sense of community with others who have a shared experience. Learn more at climbbig.org.

Do you have any other tips or advice for people of size who want to try a new "outdoorsy" activity, or to simply get outside?

MB: Trying something new takes courage and bravery, especially when it’s in a space where you don’t see representation. There are a lot of affinity groups on social media, so that is a good start. Make sure you start with people you know and trust and have conversations around your needs. Setting expectations about the adventure beforehand like “I’m going to be moving slow and may need to stop early” is a good way to ensure a fun day.

RM: If you’re nervous, join an outdoor group on Facebook or something. There are a bunch out there. When I first got back to Portland, I joined PNW Outdoor Women, and made some great adventure friends and learned a lot about different skill sets and activities. Gaining skills through classes, like Mazamas BCEP, is also a great way to build confidence and meet people. But generally, just make a plan and go. Be safe, take your ten essentials, let someone know where you are, carry plenty of water, and wear appropriate shoes, but get out there! How could other outdoor brands, organizations like the Mazamas, and the outdoor community at large better support people of size and other underrepresented folks?

MB: Listen to the community. Ask questions about what you can be doing better. On more than one occasion with the Mazamas and in the outdoor community I’ve voiced my concerns and been told “oh it’s not that bad” or “you don’t need to feel anxious about your speed” or some other version of those words. When you disregard someone’s experience you are telling them “your thoughts and feelings aren’t valid” and further the idea that they don’t belong there. I hope to see the Mazmas and other organizations and companies really actively listening and then making actionable plans to change. I hope to see more thoughtful partnerships with affinity groups that are doing this work.

RM: A big way to help representation is to include people of size in images, media, and as leaders. When people of size see other people of size doing the thing, it makes it less intimidating. Is there anything else you'd like to tell our readers? Where can people follow you or learn more about your work?

MB: My biggest piece of advice for anyone reading is that if any of this has made you uncomfortable or defensive, to please explore those feelings and work through them. We all have different lived experiences and the Mazama mission is to inspire EVERYONE to love and protect the mountains. I hope that we can continue to have these conversations and find ways to create a welcoming, safe atmosphere for anyone who wants to get outdoors. You can find more about my work and what I’m doing on my Instagram, @ pdxoutdoorchiro, or email megan.banker1060@gmail.com.

RM: My outdoor time has been kinda reigned in during COVID and while dealing with a toddler who refuses to sleep, but I post on Instagram when I do have adventures. I hope they will be more frequent very soon! I’m @raketje over there.

Learn more about the OR inclusive sizing project and Megan and Rochelle’s involvement at tinyurl.com/ORplus.