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Elizabeth Tumulty
For the first time, in an extremely personal and extensive interview with NAWRB, Elizabeth Tumulty, Former President of CBS Television Network, shares how her humble upbringing of being raised by a hardworking, single mother and the obstacles she faced became her core pillars of strength, climbing her way up from being a secretary to a powerful negotiator and senior executive in the network television industry.
Interview by Desirée Patno
Section 1:Background, Diversity and Equality
NAWRB: What led you to a career cold because the gas bill had lapsed or as an executive working behind the we would see a big red embarrassing scenes in network television? eviction notice slapped on the door. We NAWRB: Tell us about your life cirthat came to class asking to borrow your pen, pencil or piece In any event, we lived in a constant cycle between eviction notices, and cut-off utilities. My sister and I dreaded coming home from school because we knew the apartment would likely be dark because the electricity had been turned off, or especially hated not having electricity Elizabeth Tumulty (ET): My life because keeping the lights ON meant circumstances especially our financial the cockroaches stayed out of site plus status, my mother, watching a lot of we could watch TV. Because of that TV, and my innate curiosity led me cycle we often moved. Looking on the and contributed to my career in telebright side, these circumstances taught vision. me to quickly adapt to changing envicumstances. One of the reasons we felt so much ET: I grew-up with my mother and a family. She grew up in an orphanage younger sister. Mom worked three Mother & daughters left to right, Maryjayne Brannan, Maryanne Finney & Elizabeth Tumulty and didn’t graduate high school. She jobs yet we were still always broke. never had a role model or experienced Broke for us meant I was the kid that salvaged for gym real family life. Her only example of love was from my father shoe’s out of the school’s lost-and-found box, and the girl whom she met at the age of 14. of paper. I didn’t fit-in so I was constantly bullied. If we were My mom wasn’t on drugs, an alcoholic or a gambler. She lucky, home ended up being a section 8 apartment. That’s a just did what she had to do and that was work… three jobs. fancy term for a project apartment or what many call “the She did the very early breakfast shift at Denny’s restaurant, projects.” Most people don’t know that it’s actually very difwent to an office job during the day followed by the dinner ficult to obtain Section 8 status. The waiting list can take through closing shift at Red Lobster. Everything we had deyears and they truly check you out to make sure you qualify. pended on tips. Some weeks were better than others.
ronments. love is all my mother ever wanted was By the time she was in her 30’s she had debilating rheumatoid arthritis and she died young of Chronic Myeloid Leukemia in her 50’s. I believe those three low paying jobs, constant stress, poor nutrition, and having less than 4 hours
of sleep most nights drove her an early grave. She couldn’t resemble themselves. So although I wasn’t a man I did have tion. I never lied either. It wasn’t until I left CBS, I’ve opened the painful, compelling stories during my speaking tour, but
afford to ever miss work because she needed every dollar. NAWRB: Did you see or experience any inequalities in the
NAWRB: Given the circumstances in which you grew up and the experiences of your mother do you have any takewas powerless to do more. I was deliberate in trying to hire
aways in terms of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion?
ET: Absolutely! I didn’t understand it then but I do now that I enjoy different treatment based on the color of my skin. When my mom worked at Denny’s and Red Lobster her tips were bigger than her black co-worker’s. It was sometimes her experience when white diners were sat in a black woman’s section they’d asked to be moved for no reason. And her black co-workers received more complaints about the food coming out more slowly. That wasn’t true. While leaving a breakfast tip at Denny’s was nothing more than end of the shift Mom came out a little more ahead compared to her black coworkers.
When I worked fast food and retail it was apparent to me why I was always put on the register while my Black or Hispanic co-workers were in the back flipping burgers or unpacking boxes. Then when I began working in corporate, every person who I interviewed with happened to be a white man. It has been shown some people hire employees that an advantage because I was white.
Because I didn’t share the same background I never discussed the circumstances of my childhood or lack of educaup about it. Since then I’ve shared extensively about some of this is the first time anything is in print.
corporate world?
ET: Yes, I did. I’m proud to have made a difference but I pocket change, and a few dollars on a Red Lobster tab, at the
people who weren’t like me. That was very difficult based on the resumes funneled my way or the number of people I was directed to hire due to nepotism.
The further I moved up it became abundantly apparent there were greater pay disparities. Being a woman was a larger financial inequality than I had thought. There were two companies where I inherited my entire team and in both instances I had men working for me that made more money than I did. It’s not just women either, financial inequality also impacts people of color, people of certain religions, people that are overweight people with physical disabilities and more. That’s a problem.
Section 2:Why A Career in Television? NAWRB: Now, lets talk about why you chose a career in television.
ET: It was the 1970’s, we were given a black and white TV, and my little sister would have to hold the antenna to maintain a clear picture. It’s so funny to think about it now! (Laughter)
I didn’t have the money to go, or do things like my friends. But watching TV was the ONE thing I could do that put me on an even playing field with all my classmates. This was before cable, satellite or the internet. So everyone could consume the same content at the same time. We gabbed about TV every morning on the school bus. During these conversations is the only time I truly fit-in with my classmates. We wished for teachers like those on “Room 222,” and families like, “The Walton’s.” We wanted to be pretty like Diahann Carroll on “Julia” and cool like, “The Mod Squad.”
This is Us star Justin Hartley & Elizabeth Tumulty
CW Network launch event with (left to right): Elizabeth Tumulty; Nancy Tellum, former president CBS Television Studios; Bruce Rosenblum, former CEO Warner Bros TV Group; John Maatta, former COO CW Television Network; Dawn Ostroff, former President of Entertainment CW Television Network; Barry Meyer, former Chairman Warner Bros; Les Moonves, former Chairman and CEO CBS Corporation; Julie Chen, television personality and Les Moonves' wife.
ly, I saw goals beyond being pretty, marrying a rich guy or becoming a bored, unhappy housewife like I saw on soaps like Dynasty and Dallas. My game-changer was Mary, from “The Mary Tyler Moore Show.” That program was about an unmarried, independent woman focused on her career in television. How perfect!
That innate curiosity I mentioned at the start of our interview set in motion the drive to learn everything about television. When I was 10 I made a plan. First, I needed to understand how TV shows were transmitted to everyone’s TV set on the same day, at the same time, through the air. I thought it astonishing from a technology standpoint. Then, I needed to make sense of why watching TV is a “free to me” business model.
I had a paper route at 8. But before I started working long hours in fast food and retail at the age of 14, I would skip school to hang out with the engineers at WTTW-TV ChiNAWRB: I understand why you wanted a career in television. Is it difficult to break into the television business? How did you do it? ET: My friend from High School had graduated from a secretarial program. She had just become a secretary to an cago. I often think about those guys and what they thought of the little girl, asking if she could watch them work. Recently, I tracked down one of those engineers, Barry Blue, to say thank you and let him know about the positive impact he made. Surprisingly, Barry is still working at WTTW!
Then after barely graduating high school and managing to talk my way into university due to my lack of decent grades and an inferior score on my ACT, I thrived away from home, and finally fit-in because nobody knew about my past. I created a better way of learning for me, achieved straight A’s and became a tutor.
Two years later, I had to give-up school and move home to help my mom whose disease had progressed. My dream began to slip away as I worked crappy jobs and began planning my best possible future through marriage …but I had for
Section 3:Career in Television
gotten about landing a rich guy. (laughter.) executive at Columbia. She introduced me to her boss and after hearing that I was so eager that I was willing to scrub the bathrooms with my toothbrush, he introduced me to another executive that was hiring. (laughing)
literally worked my way up the TV a famous CEO. So I made the leap, ladder by taking various promotions, Network Awards understanding ahead of time my tenat different companies around the ure would be short lived. I was hired country. My experience growing up to be a change agent for people that and changing schools and housing didn’t want change. That’s not a fun made it easy and exciting to relocate. position. I thought it would take My goal was to make it to the top my CBS agenda. To my surprise I acand retire by age 50. Four years ago, complished everything much soonI retired as a President from the #1 er. It was time for me to go. I began Television Network, CBS, reporting making moves and planting seeds to one of the worlds most iconic and about the timing of my departure. highest paid Chairmen and CEO’s NAWRB: What are some challenges you have experienced in your career, and how did you overcome them? ET: Besides being a woman? And making less money for years? (laughter.) about 5 years to tick off the boxes on of that time, Leslie Moonves. I Today, CBS is a completely different checked all of my boxes! I now know company. The leadership has changed how TV works, how it gets into your and my particular job description home, and how it makes money! no longer exists. Instead, they have executives in deal-makers roles and NAWRB: What was your experience executives who run the day-to-day like as President of Affiliate Relations operation of the 200+ affiliated telefor the CBS Television Network? vision stations separated, but under one umbrella… Sort of a good cop, ET: My experience was extraordibad cop thing and it’s working well nary. I’m so grateful for that time. It was also very challenging because "I was working at a strugfor them. I had always worked for underdog gling start-up network Looking back, I couldn’t be more companies that were trying someproud. I developed a long-term deal thing new and different. I related to while they (CBS) were “flip-strategy” that resulted in revethe scrappy and “on the other side of the tracks” type of mentality those hobnobbing at The Super nue increases from almost nothing to an excess of several billion. companies had because I was very Bowl & Winning Awards" familiar with that feeling. I’m also proud to have completed the first deal cycle. While at the So when CBS called, I had to really take that into considersame time I embraced adversarial colleagues who were inexation. CBS had been the #1 Network for years. TV stations perienced in the network affiliate arena. I showed them the had been their affiliates since before I was born, and many ropes and nuances of the network affiliate business that priemployees had worked at the network for over 30 years. I or to that time were completely foreign to them. I used my was working at a struggling start-up network while they positive long-standing relationships to help them build their were hobnobbing at The Super Bowl and winning awards. relationships. I’ve always chosen a few star employees and Not that there’s anything wrong with that! (laughing) provided them with knowledge, visibility and promotions. I In the end, I knew it was the best way to earn my Network little money along the way. Really, it’s worked out beautifully President stripes, work for a household brand and report to for everyone.
Section 4:Career Advice
couldn’t have scripted my time at CBS better plus I made a Okay, first starting as a secretary in the ‘80’s isn’t an executive career path. Most people in the business don’t start there. Even if they start at the bottom as an assistant or a P.A. (production assistant,) while it might sound like the same job, it’s not. Assistants on the creative side of the business have
tremendous career paths and earning potential. Don’t get me wrong, secretaries hold extremely important valuable positions, have the ability to learn a lot about the business and can make six-figures working for a top executive. It’s just not where you want to be if you’re an aspiring executive. For me to break out of the secretarial role, I had to leave the company to start at the bottom once again, this time with a better career trajectory.
Furthermore, secretaries weren’t taken seriously in the 1980’s. Here’s an example. Prior to landing that first secretarial job, I interviewed with a division head at Paramount for his receptionist position. The first thing he said to me, even before I sat down was, “Vanna’s job is taken,” referring to Vanna White from “Wheel of Fortune.” Well, I knew I wasn’t getting that receptionist job so I fired back with a smile, “Good. That’s not why I’m here.” After an hour he encouraged me to go to law school because I could be a good agent with my quick wit, and unassuming style.
NAWRB: You have had a successful career. Is there anything you would do differently?
ET: It all worked out pretty well for me but if I HAD to do it differently, I would embrace my challenges and insecurities instead of trying to hide them. For far too long I thought that “growing up on the other side of the tracks” meant I didn’t deserve a place at the table.
And I would definitely have tried to get my MBA while I was in my 20’s. I didn’t particularly see a difference in terms of innate intelligence or on the job performance between those with MBA’s and me. But none of my MBA colleagues started as secretaries, they always made more money, and they’ll always have the advantage their classmates and alumni network provide.
NAWRB: Are there many opportunities for women in leadership in your industry? What can be done to improve the situation?
ET: More than ever! A lot of “#Me Too” firings opened doors for women. Many of those men held their positions and the power for years. During their tenure many women had worked their way up. They were ready to take the reigns, now some have. It’s certainly not as good as it should be but it’s better.
In the meantime, we have to change the perception that women and people of color are getting jobs or board positions for no other reason. Generally speaking, in California, we have almost 200 companies who are required to have a woman on their board. Prior to that mandate, some companies already had a woman on their board. Now, these women are being looked at differently. It’s as if their value has been diminished to nothing more than a token.
Don’t be afraid to share your knowledge. For example, I knew that I couldn’t get promoted unless there was someone who could take my job, so I always worked to prepare somebody to take my place instead of hanging on to knowledge for power. Of course there are people that will take advantage of that. Part of being a leader is identifying the right people to work on your team.
NAWRB: Who are the most influential people in your life?
ET: That’s easy my mother and sister are the most influential people in my life. Both are two of the smartest women I’ve met. They’re great examples of having the skills and traits I look for in friends as well as in the people I hire. They’re grounded, genuine, have real commonsense, tremendous work ethic, a wicked humor, as well as a positive attitude in the face of adversity plus they’re deliberate about helping those with less.
If I were to name names, my first career mentor was, Paul Franklin another former President at CBS who hired me into the business as his first secretary back when Ronald Reagan was President. It’s unfortunate that he arrived at CBS after my exit because we would have enjoyed working
together again. From Paul, I saw the importance of negotiating with integrity and honesty.
Ken Werner, a former President at Warner Bros. was my greatest mentor as well as my sole sponsor. He too negotiates with integrity, and honesty. There’s so much more I’ve learned from Kenny, I don’t even know where to begin…
Ken had a tough job. This made him quite demanding plus he’s very intelligent. Suffice it to say, I had to be constantly on my toes more than with any boss I’ve ever had. He was also the guy who was courageous enough to speak up and make a compelling case for a new or unpopular point of view as well as state aloud what others were thinking but too afraid to say. Each of these traits made a lasting impact on me.
Interestingly, work "Ken" made this 180 transformation to creampuff, "Kenny" as soon as he pulled into his driveway. This man adores his wife. Together, they're the types of parents I would want to be if I were a parent.
And then there’s the famous, Garth Ancier. Talk about intelligence… whoa. Garth was 28 when he became the founding entertainment president for the new, fourth Network to hit the airwaves, FOX Broadcasting. I mean this man has led several networks and developed some of your favorite programs. From Garth I learned the importance of keeping my eye on technology, and the zeitgeist. Plus, when he was running The WB Network and I was a nobody, he always had the time to answer my questions. He tells the truth, no filter, and I appreciate that.
I’m still friend’s with all of them.
C200 Leaders at Pepperdine University NAWRB: Were you a mentor too?
ET: None of the companies I worked for had formal mentoring programs. Even so, I targeted people that deserved to grow. I spent time on nurturing and trusting them with NAWRB: Let’s move on to your experience as a great nego
Ken Werner, former President Warner Bros. & Elizabeth Tumulty.
knowledge. I made sure to give credit for their work, visibility to top leadership as well as adjusting inequalities and promoting from within.
Also, I’m a member of C200, the invitation only powerful community of the most successful women in business. Our mission is the advancement of women. When I left CBS, I was so pleased to finally be able to dedicate myself to mentoring as part of our Protégé Program. The criteria to be selected as a protégé is exhaustive. Therefore, these women are extremely impressive and quite accomplished.
In one instance I was paired with a woman that had been an News anchor in a large city. She lost her job as part of overall cutbacks that have been taking place in News for quite some time. Prior to joining the protégé program, Kristi Piehl became the Founder and CEO of Media Minefield over 10 years ago and hasn’t looked back. Her company specializes in earned media, crisis communication, and positive online presence. Furthermore, her company is the only one I know of that guarantees you or your company will be famous… in a good way! She graduated from the Protégé program a few years ago but we continue our bi-monthly calls. I’m extremely proud to see what she’s
Section 5:Negotiation accomplished and her future is increasingly brighter. tiator. What tips can you offer? You already know, I wholeheartedly believe in honesty and integrity in every negotiation. Those traits stand the test of ET: People are easily intimidated by negotiations. It is really time. It’s helpful to know, there’s three types of negotiators; just a conversation. And a conversation is a give and take. We Assertives, Analysts and Accommodators. I’ve created my do it all the time. For example we negotiate where we want own style, I call the Adaptor. I’m pretty good at reading peoto meet our friends, or what movie the family should see. ple and a situation. I adapt my negotiation style to best serve
Kristi Piehl, founder & CEO Media Minefield, former First Lady Laura Bush and Elizabeth Tumulty.
each situation while always maintaining my honesty and integrity. Often I change between styles as the negotiation ebbs and flows. And I don’t believe it always has to get ugly to win. That’s not to say it doesn’t get ugly.
That said, there’s five basics everyone should practice:
1. Using Leverage: Many business negotiators are Assertives. And many Assertives intentionally open with leverage. Don’t get me wrong, you always want leverage. Having leverage is the best tool of the trade! But opening with leverage causes resentment from the other side and damages the overall go-forward conversation. Look, you can always use your leverage, but I don’t think it’s the best starting point.
Don’t assume leverage is a given, something you automatically have or don’t have. While many times it’s obvious who has the leverage. For me, the real art of negotiating is creating leverage through a well thought out strategy. Prior to working in television I obtained my Real Estate License. I wasn’t in it long but it was obvious when it was a buyers’ or sellers’ market. But I made the most money when I added to the leverage I already had or created leverage when I didn’t.
2. Having the Ability to Say, "No": While leverage is something you always want, on the flip side, I wouldn’t advise going into a negotiation out of desperation. It’s very important to have the ability to say, “no.” When you come to that dead-end and you can’t say no and walk away, you’re probably not going to achieve the outcome or amount of revenue you wanted. This is something that every realtor has probably experienced.
3. The Art of Silence: Silence is a pretty powerful tool and quite fun. People are uncomfortable with silences, so they tend to talk and talk until they’ve talked themselves into a corner. This gives you the opportunity to swoop and close.
4. Doing your Homework: I tell everyone to write down exactly what they want item by item. Then, next to each item write why you’re asking for that item and why it’s important. It’s much easier to get what you want when you have a compelling reason.
5. Listening: This is the easiest tool but the least practiced. Listening comes in different forms. I encourage people to learn as much as possible about the other party, and their company. Try to meet your counterpart in advance to listen and build trust. I think this is key. Many times, you have a lot more in common than not. It makes much more sense for the other side to give on points they find relatable. And listening is just one way to help you create leverage because you understand their goals and motivation. It’s also a great way to create items to give that don’t mean anything to you, but you’ve learned are important to the other side.
Also, keep your ear to the ground and listen to your broader network. Learn from their experience with this person and company. There will be times you believe you have leverage only to learn later you don’t. You don’t want to be caught off guard during the negotiation by learning about something another division at your company might have done, or the other side has relationships or votes in place that won’t approve a deal with your company, etc.
Most importantly listen during the negotiation. Instead most people think about what they’re going to say next instead of simply listening and acknowledging that you’ve heard the other person, even if they’re not going to get what they want out of the deal.
You know it’s interesting… People in general make decisions based on emotion, regardless of what the decision is about. Because of this your entire negotiation can hinge on your counterpart’s mood.
I remember when I was selected to attend leadership school in Boston and NYC as part of a Time Warner initiative to develop leaders from within. We spent a day on negotiation. The speaker has written several best sellers on the topic. One of the things this person stressed was the importance of taking emotion out of the negotiation. I’ve tried and I can do it 100% when buying a house or a car. And while at work, I don’t take what’s said during a negotiation personally because it’s the situation not me they find upsetting. I’ve also learned tricks and phrases to help tone down the emotions of my counterpart. But there’s a lot riding on the big negotiations. So sometimes it’s impossible to truly remove all emotion from negotiations.
Section 6:The Future NAWRB: How has network television changed, how are programs via the internet. Netflix, Amazon, YouTube, are television networks addressing competition from streaming just some of the steaming outlets. But if you were to look services, such as Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, and others? at our entire country you would be astonished by the numAre less people watching network television now because of ber of households without access to the internet. And if you these other options? were to ask the entire country, including those with interET: People are consuming more content than ever before. Netflix, Amazon, Roku, YouTube, ABC, NBC, FOX, CNN Television Networks have a studio arm. Their network proHGTV, people over 35 choose CBS. grams are produced by their studio arm. Today there’s more places and ways to consume content that have opened a path NAWRB: In this time of uncertainty of COVID-19, what, for that network studio arm to create and distribute addiin your opinion, is the best way for news outlets to commutional content. nicate crucial information to citizens while also dispelling As we’ve mentioned many people are consuming content differently. So in addition to existing studios creating more ET: Oh this is a passion. We should all have access to accontent, we’ve seen new studios and production companies curate fact checked news and information equally. And we popping up. This means more jobs for everyone. should all understand the difference between news and Interestingly, the younger and more affluent people are conup and distribute their own “news” stories, truth is decaying. suming content over the top, meaning they stream their net, which one “channel” would they keep out of all of them, fears? opinion. Sadly, in today’s digital age where anyone can make In terms of cable, non-opinionated “news” isn’t the best revenue model. People should keep in mind that news is a business. A very profitable business! The jobs of those networks are to keep you tuned in for as long as possible so you see as many commercials as possible. That’s how they make money. Viewers are more likely to tune to just one of those networks. They chose the network whose opinion is more in line with their own. Unknowingly many people actually form their point of view based on the opinions of just one network.
That being said, I’m a news junkie. I consume news from all types of sources. I like getting different perspectives and opinions, doing additional research, and forming my own opinion. Many times, I surprise myself! It’s that curiosity thing in me we talked about earlier.
In particular since the COVID lockdown began, I’ve spent hours hand logging newscasts including the type of video a particular network newscast uses to tell the same top story of the day. Sometimes, it’s a big difference! If I were to turn the sound down, many times I would think the stories were about two different topics.
I can really go on here, especially when it comes to what people post to social media. But for those interested in stopping the spread of fake news there
is a chart produced by IFLA.org that outlines the basics on how to recognize a fake news story. IFLA.org is the International Federation of Library Associations and Institutions. They’re the independent, international, non-governmental not for profit voice of the library and information profession.
NAWRB: What are your future goals, and where do you see yourself in five years?
ET: I mentioned my passion towards accessible fact based news. And I have a few ideas there. I’ve also been asked to write two books. I’m not sure that’s for me, but we’ll see. In the meantime, I’ll continue consulting, speaking and serving on the board of companies whose mission really speak to me.
Many people ask if I’ll get back into my old business. I must say, it would take a particular company or a person that I truly admire to get me to go back. I’m not looking, but if they were to call, I might consider it.
NAWRB: What is something you would add to your bucket list?
ET: I’m so grateful for all the experiences in my life. I’ve pretty much done things that I never even imagined I would ever do. I’ve done everything from meeting many world leaders, including US Presidents, to recently kayaking with sea lions and trekking with penguins in Antarctica. I’ve had an amazing life.
I’d definitely like to make a larger impact on those with less. In terms of fun, I’d like to spend a few weeks vacationing with my sister. We’ve never been able to take a trip, just the two of us.
NAWRB: What is something people would be surprised to know about you?
ET: People are very surprised when they find out I’m a huge introvert because I pretty much had to be an extravert when working with clients. I love to travel, sail, and cuddle with my Ozzie-Dog. I look forward to annual trips with the women that have been my tribe for 40 plus years. I’m known for getting people including strangers to make pyramids at events
Elizabeth Tumulty at the White House with President Barack Obama.
Sisters Maryjayne Brannan and Elizabeth Tumulty
Elizabeth Tumulty at the Emmys
for a photo op. And I’m somewhat of a prankster. One time by boyfriend opened an Amazon package and commented, “Seriously? … I certainly hope you weren’t planning to do this to me.”
