Interview: Professor Cheryl Amana Burris & Attorney John L. Burris

In this riveting interview with Associate Dean Marsetta Lee, our esteemed Professor Cheryl Amana Burris, alongside her husband, renown civil rights attorney John Burris, shared valuable breadcrumbs along what he calls (in an homage to Robert Frost) “the road less traveled.” As this power couple takes us along that road, we see that it leads through the tumultuous and painful political terrain of police brutality (from Rodney King to George Floyd), offers a view of the many passions that drive the legal practice and carefully navigates the twists and turns of the factors involved in choosing a practice area. With wisdom on topics ranging from matriculation to mentorship, Professor Amana and Attorney Burris together provide young and experienced lawyers alike critically important secrets to success and satisfaction in the journey of the practice of law and life.

Dean Marsetta Lee: HBCUs have really been in the limelight lately. Many of those of us who have been involved in, attended and supported HBCUs just smile a little because we’ve loved and known about our value for so long. Now, people are behaving as though this excellence is gold that has been discovered. Since you all are steeped in that history, can you share with the audience and the future readers where that desire and spirit for HBCUs emanated from?

Professor Cheryl Amana: You know, I actually have been committed to working and serving people of color – particularly African Americans – as well as teen parents and disenfranchised people my whole adult life. I did not go to HBCU, but when I started working at one back in 1985, within the first semester, I was sold on HBCUs, and especially the law school and what it was doing. I mean, to have a Black dean, a Black associate dean, colleagues who were women and men of color, and students – it was just wonderful.

Ms. Lee: So, you knew immediately that North Carolina Central was the place for you?

Professor Amana: Within the first semester, I was absolutely committed to staying at Central. I did go to Columbia for a year. And then, when John and I got married, we actually commuted for a year in 2001 before we married in 2002. The question was: Was I going to transfer to a law school on the West Coast or Central? I did do a visitorship for a year. I had a first-year property class, in the class of 90 students, I had three African American men and no African American women in the whole class. It was just not what I was committed to and it was not Central. I was not happy. Fortunately, John has supported me in a 20-year commute.

Ms. Lee: How would you describe the social environment?

Professor Amana: It was wonderful. John had pledged

for Kappa Alpha Psi, but I had not pledged any sorority or fraternity. I have to tell you, when they had the step shows, it was just so much fun.

Attorney John Burris: There was this wonderful sense of camaraderie that existed. I’m a Californian and attended mainly California schools, but a part of that was, in college, I did pledge a fraternity, Kappa Alpha Psi. We had what they call frat games every year. All four of the Black fraternities and the sororities would get together and have these basketball tournaments. Because I was a member of the fraternity, I’d get the national magazine [which covered] HBCUs from around the country, so I got a good sense of what they were. Frankly, I was a little envious because they did have a special relationship. I always followed the athletic programs at the various schools and knew about the Black coaches. I knew about things that were going on for many, many years, so I always had a sense of it and I knew it was special. Having followed the Negro Baseball Leagues, so I knew that there was a specialness associated with African Americans when they are in control of the environment. That’s what I saw at HBCU schools. As for my family, we have had grandkids, nieces and nephews who we’ve all recommended to go to HBCUs, and some of them have. We clearly understand their value in terms of developing the whole person. It’s deeply rooted in our sense of what should happen and the kind of experience that you can get. Everyone we talked to who did go shared the same valuable experiences. And his past year, even the NBA gave special attention to the HBCUs during their All-Star Game. So, there is this kind of awakening in a broader sense of its importance.

Ms. Lee: The New York Times recently reported an incident in which an adjunct professor at Georgetown was caught on a Zoom call making disparaging remarks about Black students. In the leaked video call, she stated that, while a few were at the top of the class, she was dismayed that every year Black students seemed to be at the bottom of the class. As a person who has taught at the undergraduate level, including first-generation Black and Brown students, I thought, “Wow! You wonder why they’re in the bottom of the class? Maybe it’s because your attitude is so disgusting and off-putting that you’ve demoralized them before they even got an opportunity to get into a successful academic rhythm.” The whole purpose of being a teacher is to reach student where they are and bring them along so they can shine. Georgetown did terminate the professor, but the issues remain. What are your thoughts?

Attorney Burris: That’s been the entire argument for years gone by against affirmative action in schools. It was always presumed by the White professor – particularly at the major universities – that that’s why the Black students were there. Professor Amana: When I came out of high school, I would say the majority of the African American students were going to HBCUs. There were 12 African Americans in my class at Penn out of 150 students. One of the professors said in class that all of the students of color had come through affirmative action, which was absolutely not true. That was 1974, and so, we had to come real far. But we still have far to go in terms of that sentiment

Attorney Burris: It was true when I went to Berkeley that most of the students who were African American students were on affirmative action, but it really didn’t matter because these students have gone on to do great things and they were smart people. They may have had some deficiencies in certain areas, but they weren’t deficient in terms of intellect. And so, that is a stigma that people have to overcome and get past. Because, a lot of folks, they went to a school that did not prepare them as well as they should, and I’m one of those kids. They do have to overcome it and they can overcome it. But, the schools can create a hostile environment for them that they can’t overcome in that environment because you can kill their spirits and you’ll see dropouts occur. That does happen, and these young people may wind up being just like that.

In some cases, students may not have been confident or adequately prepared. And then, in a lot of these schools, most of them, I might say, they weren’t there really to teach students how to do certain kind of things. These schools were very much institutionalized research institutions and were not geared toward helping students. They didn’t have the philosophy of finding students where they are and teaching them. So, I’m not surprised at that at all.

The question really becomes: What is Georgetown going to do about that and what is their mission for that? Because, if you bring that student there, theoretically, you’re trying to help that student get through there. That should be the overall mission. As you said, students come at different levels. Wherever they are, the teacher should be able to reach them there, but that’s not always the case. It only shows, again, that there are people who really have a predisposition and belief system about Black students and they’re not prepared to assist in their overall development. That speaks why you have HBCU schools, period.

Ms. Lee: This year has been especially challenging in light of COVID and, at nearly every dean’s meeting, we talk about mental health issues and student confidence concerns. I know that you mentor many new lawyers, including attorneys from NCCU. As we are moving into a new stage of COVID that students who are coming out now will face, how will you – and how do you advise us to – mentor new lawyers in this regard?

Attorney Burris: Well, I would say, from a student’s point of view, you have to make sure that you have confidence in yourself. [This will] prepare you to deal with those challenges and make you stay focused on what your overall objective is. Ultimately, everyone has to find their own level. But, when challenges come up, you don’t quit – you just figure it out [and] make the most of the adjustments. I always tell people there are a lot of lawyers here, [including] a lot of dumb lawyers, and they’ve passed the examinations at whatever state it is. If they can do it, you can do it. So, maintain your confidence level. Ultimately, it’s a question of your own initiative about what kind of person you become as a lawyer, what your vision is and your passion for the world.

Professor Amana: I do think that the students have been at a disadvantage by not being able to meet with their professors and their advisors face to face. It’s one thing to do it on Zoom. It’s another to have them in your office talking with them frankly – the sorts of things that may come up in person simply will not come up in a Zoom environment. Marsetta Lee: Each of you has different areas of practice and you clearly are passionate about it. How did that evolve? Why family law? Why civil rights law? Did a particular incident happen, or was it organic?

Attorney Burris: Now, for me, it is the question I get asked the most. There’s not an easy response to it, of course, because, as I said earlier, I went to college to be an accountant. I was the accountant with the big glasses, the whole deal – Mr. Magoo at the time. But, I was not happy. And, frankly, the turning points in my life were when Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King were killed. That caused me to think that I needed to do more with my life than what I was doing. And so, stops along the way, obviously, going to law school was very, very important. I led a strike at the school where I became more of a student leader at the school. I ultimately went to Chicago and worked at a big firm. But, part of that process is that I was part of [efforts being led by] Ralph Metcalfe, who was a councilman at the time, a commission that was studying police brutality.

And so, I got involved with that as a student, and that sort of stayed with me until I came back to California. I was in the prosecutor’s office in California, the prosecutor’s office in Chicago. But, when I started practice, there was a shooting that took place – very much like the shootings we have now. A 14-year-old was shot in the back many times by Oakland police officers. I don’t know the reason why, but I ultimately was appointed to be a private investigator into this shooting. And, when I did that, I was able to render an opinion as to the legitimacy of the shooting. Of course, I rendered one that said the shooting was wrong, and, when I did that, all hell broke loose on me. All of a sudden, I became a pariah. But, it also did something else. It lit a fuse in me. It clearly indicated that the police [sometimes] engage in conduct that [reflects] they’re not interested in the truth of the matter. They’re interested in protecting their particular image. I came to that resolution then, so, that kind of started me along my way. Ultimately, I was a criminal defense lawyer for a few years before I ultimately decided: I’m on the wrong side of the table here… what I really want to do is represent people who, themselves, have been victimized.

Ms. Lee: Wow, that’s impressive.

Professor Amana: Certainly for me, I had been committed to issues around family. I was a teen parent and I’ve worked with teen parents wherever I’ve lived and I’ve tried to support them. For my first law job, I moved to California when I graduated from law school and I worked for Willie Brown, who assigned me to family issues and education and health issues.

Professor Amana: He was an assemblyperson, and, while I was working for him, he also became speaker of the assembly. One of the things it showed me is that there are so many things you

can do with a law degree, but you can make a difference that goes far beyond the courtroom, just those legislative things that we were able to get through. I would cover hearings for him around issues addressing maternal health and those sorts of things. And so, that got me on the road to being interested in family law.

Then, once I started teaching, I would go back to Philadelphia in the summer because my family was back there. I actually had an arrangement where I would be an assistant city solicitor in the city of Philadelphia representing the department of social services, and all family law issues. So, I think I was absolutely well suited to teach family law. I loved teaching family law.

Ms. Lee: Do you think that attorneys, that law schools and mentors emphasize the role of civil rights lawyers enough? For instance, oftentimes, students like my godson (giving him a shout out – he’s number one in his first-year class at Southern!) wants to be a public defender or defense attorney. I think defense attorneys and prosecutors gain a great deal of attention and there are more opportunities for lawyers of colors in government. But, as we look at where we are now (socially and politically), are we encouraging or planting that seed for young lawyers? I’m just throwing it out there.

Professor Amana: I think certainly at Central we are. Our mission statement says we want to have lawyers be able to go back and represent disenfranchised communities. For the 20 years that I commuted, there was not one year that went by where John did not come in and talk to the students about doing civil rights work and what it takes. [That said], I think Central’s a special school. Generally, I don’t think it happens. Certainly, at Penn, they would think you were crazy if you were talking about going to anything like civil rights. Big firms were what they were trying to groom you for. And so, they just had different emphasis. But, I think Central, because of our particular mission, we probably talk about civil rights more than most.

Attorney Burris: You know, at Berkeley, where I was-granted, we were at the height of the Vietnam War and Cambodia and all that-so there was a heightened sense of consciousness at the school. And so, there was discussion about civil rights and the employment matters that were just coming in at the time. But, I can tell you there were no conversations-none-around the issues of police brutality. What I think we learned and we come to think is that [for] White people, Jewish people, people who are interested in civil rights, police civil rights were not something they were interested in. They really were interested in employment. [T]he reason why even the lawyers committee (which I’m a member of) didn’t deal with police issues is because there’s this sense there’s a hands-off there. And plus, the people who get involved in police issues have problems, so it’s not a clean situation. When I was at Berkeley, the law schools themselves did not talk about police litigation. In fact, the talk at the time that I can remember being discussed back in 1971 was in terms of housing, racial redlining and things of that nature. In 1973, the issues of civil rights related to law enforcement [were not so much discussed]. It’s an area that developed and I’ve been part of since the ’70s and ’80s.

Now, when I talk to young students, at Central and even other schools, there’s always this interest in the back of their heads about doing civil rights. There really is. But, very few have done it, in large measure, because it’s not easy to do. Because, when present-day students get out of school, they’ve got debt. That debt can prevent them from doing socially relevant work. Still, we have been fortunate, I have, to hire young lawyers who come in and want to learn the work, and they’ve learned it. But, that’s a very small percentage. In all of the years that I’ve gone through Central, I don’t know that we’ve developed five lawyers who’ve done [civil rights work].

Ms. Lee: I see. Since so many graduates are facing this situation, do you offer them any other advice?

Attorney Burris: Everyone’s not going to do the work that I do. It’s a unique practice, so most people are not going to be able to do it. But, there are things you can do. So, I will say to students, “Just because you’re not actually doing civil rights work in litigation doesn’t mean you can’t have positive impact on the community that you’re involved in.” Whether you’re a public person, in a government entity or in a private corporation or a private firm, there’ll be decisions where issues of race will come up. You are in a position to give insight, different insight, and that can be very, very helpful. Now, that’s a form of taking your values that you have around civil rights and infusing them into decision makings that can be helpful either at the city or the county or the US attorney’s office, wherever it may be.

I try to broaden the civil rights concept as one of fairness, equality, understanding the rights of people and seeing if decisions may come up so that you might be able to utilize those values in moving a decision or giving insight to a fact pattern that your colleagues may not even [be aware of]. I have those kinds of discussions with people all the time to the extent that they want to hear it, because there is another side to it. All these cases, there are other sides to them. It’s really interesting. CONTINUE ON PAGE 25