Forum: GLO BAL / Ne ws / Is chopping bolts O K?
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Is c ho p p ing b o lt s O K? 2011-05-19 00:00:00
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David Bacci
2011-05-19 23:26:51
Hell yeah! es pec ially if yo u o wn a Hatto ri Hanz o !
DWF
2011-05-20 00:07:33
Yes !
Use r De act ivat e d
2011-05-20 05:17:52
I do n't think yo u c an make a blanket s tatement that it is always o kay to c ho p bo lts ... what if s o meo ne c ho pped Bio graphie? No t c o o l.Ho wever, I think this ro ute definitely falls into the c atego ry o f go o d to c ho p: a beautiful and pro tec table c rac k. There is no ques tio n that this ro ute s ho uld no t have bo lts . Andre w Haydawg
2011-05-20 06:23:06
No ques tio n the bo lts s ho uld never have been put in.
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Onc e they are put in, ho wever, c ho pping them do es n't ac hieve muc h. The damage do ne to the ro c k is s till there, the bo lt do es n't go away. It is jus t no t us eful. Spo rt c limbers c an no lo nger us e the ro ute, whic h I s uppo s e o ne c o uld argue is the "natural/appro priate s tate" and a go o d thing. It c o uld als o be c o ns idered a s elfis h / s elf-righteo us mo ve o nc e the damage was already do ne. Aka "this is fo r my s tyle o nly, I am right by definitio n and witho ut debate, and I have the right to deny ac c es s to o thers ". Wo rs t c as e s c enario , bo lters c o me bac k and bo lt it again. No w yo u've go t twic e the metal, no t muc h o f an ac hievement. Being in the no rtheas t USA, I have s een c ho pping o f bo lts , and rebo lting o f c ho pped ro utes . A lo t o f the examples , as kaelen s ays , are no t as c ut and dry as this . I'd rather thes e guys went and talked to the bo lter, and tried to develo p s o me regio nal c o ns ens us , hell maybe prevent him/her fro m bo lting mo re trad lines , rather than c ho p and walk away. But eh, maybe they did. Silvan SchĂźpbach
2011-05-20 10:53:10
Ac tually I`m wo rking o n a "greenpo int c harta" whic h is c aring abo ut this ques tio n. So far, in c o nc lus io n, I figured o ut the fo llo wing po ints : A bo lted ro ute has to be c limbed in a pro per s tyle (Redpo int, no t pinkpo int) witho ut us ing the bo lts . That is the greenpo int as c ent The greenpo int as c ent has to be graded fo r two o bjec tifs : the evidenc e o f the trad line (the s po rty value) and the quality and quantity o f the plac ements . Fo r example the do o rs is a s tellar line whic h has o nly perfec t plac ements (i`ve c limbed it las t week). s o it has a a very go o d rate fo r being de-bo lted. an o ther example is Kammerlanders "prinz ip Ho ffnung" whic h has a very very high evidenc e but, the plac ements are rather po o r, s o the rate is maybe lo wer than fo r the do o rs . On the o ther hand, there is a s o c ial as pec t, that the pers o n that has put the bo lts s ho uld be info rmed abo ut the pro c es s fo r dec iding c ho pping the bo lts . And, the bo lts s ho uld be paied bac k to the o pener! There are a lo t o f c las s ic c rac k ro utes that has been bo lted after the trad firs t as c ent, s o it s ho uld be po s s ible to do the o ppo s ite (c ho pping bo lts ). But mainly we s ho uld go o n lo o king fo r new lines and as c ent it o n trad. Jonas Wiklund
2011-05-20 11:18:01
Always Tut t ologo
2011-05-20 16:38:20
NO Pe dro St abile
2011-05-20 16:40:16
I´m in favo r o f c ho pping bo lts but there is o ne thing... always res pec t the pers o n who put up the ro ute, talk to them firs t... this is ho w we do it here in Bras il. If no t, they c an jus t re-bo lt it... twic e the damage... and then what? Cho p, bo lt,
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firs t... this is ho w we do it here in Bras il. If no t, they c an jus t re-bo lt it... twic e the damage... and then what? Cho p, bo lt, c ho p, bo lt...........
Alan Hills
2011-05-20 17:17:06
Why c ho p the bo lts ? The mo untain is already s c arred! No w, ins tead o f s o me us eful, rus ting metal bits o n the wall, there are s o me us eles s , rus ting metal s tuds s tuc k in ho les all the way up the c limb. Cho pping the bo lts is jus t a s elfis h elitis t ac t. Yo u c an pranc e aro und o n yo ur high ho rs e all day trying to jus tify it but all that has been ac hieved is that no w o nly c limbers with trad gear and experienc e c an enjo y the ro ute (To pro pe yo u s ay? Pleas e, to pro ping is fo r c limbing gyms ) A better s o lutio n is to no t bo lt the ro ute in the firs t plac e, but o nc e it is bo lted the damage c an't be "undo ne". Marc Ge rmani
2011-05-20 17:33:45
s o me peo ple bo lt anything... like the uglies t ro utes ever... it s uc ks ... s o i think that c ho pping is s o metimes as bad as bo lting... but this video is abo ut bo lting a traditio nal line... and i believe it ruins the virgin s tate o f the ro c k o nc e it's bo lted... Jack Dixon
2011-05-20 19:29:44
Yo u kno w, s o meo ne like Alex Ho nno ld c o uld pro bably make "trad" leads o f virtually every s po rt ro ute o ut there, that mo s t 8a.nu members c o uld o nly dream o f do ing; even with bo lts . What if s o meo ne like that dec ided to do s uc h, and s tart c ho pping every ro ute they do in s uc h fas hio n? Wo uld that be a legit prac tic e? Jus t po inting this o ut as I agree that this is mo s tly an "elitis ts " prac tic e; that being: c ho pping bo lted lines after as c ending them o n gear! I'm no t go ing to s ay that I think that this ro ute s ho uld have been bo lted; perhaps it s ho uldn't have, but this is a s lippery s lo pe and the ro ute c o uld have been led "trad" yet left fo r o ther, no t s o bo ld c limbers to enjo y!? Where s ho uld the "line" o n this prac tic e be drawn? Als o I no tic ed that the anc ho rs were no t s ho wn o n the vid and I s o rta as s ume that the bo lts there were left in fo r c o nvenienc e o f retrieving the gear? No t 100% pure, anyway, if s o ?? And I wo nder if there was to pro pe rehers al, by the leader in the video , o ff o f the bo lts o r anc ho rs , prio r to this video as c ent? That wo uld nullify any jus tific atio n fo r retro c ho pping, in my bo o k!! Brian Kimball
2011-05-20 20:47:10
To me it is VERY SIMPLE this ro ute is a c rac k c limb and there is NO ARGUMENT EVER that is s ho uld have been bo lted. IF yo u do no t c ho p an o bvio us c rac k c limb s uc h as The Do o rs then it s ays to everybo dy that it is OK to s ink bo lts into ALL o r ANY c rac k c limb that yo u wo uld like to lead as a Spo rt Climb fo r whatever reas o n. It is VERY IMPORTANT that this ro ute and o thers like it are c ho pped and it has NOTHING~NOTHING to do with being elitis t at all. This ro ute is a SPLITTER CRACK CLIMB if yo u s ay it is "OK" to bo lt this ro ute then yo ur are s aying it is "OK" to bo lt every 5.10 hand c rac k in Yo s emite Natio nal Park to o and that wo uld be beyo nd ridic ules . Of c o urs e the anc ho rs are bo lts what els e wo uld they be a pito n anc ho r whic h wo uld pin s c ar the c rac k fo rever with a bright multi-c o lo red webbing anc ho r? I am s ure he lead o r aided his way up the ro ute and rehears ed the ro ute o n to p ro pe-when the ro ute had bo lts "Spo rt Climbers " us ed that s ame to p ro pe rehears al metho d. The po int here is that to have a line o f bo lts go ing up every o bvio us s plitter c rac k c limb in all o f Indian Creek, Yo s emite and the res t o f the Wo rld wo uld be SIMPLY ridic ules , wo uld it no t?????
Brian Kimball
2011-05-20 21:03:07
No jus t bec aus e yo ur Alex Ho nno ld and yo u lead a Spo rt Climb o n gear do es no t mean that yo u s ho uld c ho p the
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No jus t bec aus e yo ur Alex Ho nno ld and yo u lead a Spo rt Climb o n gear do es no t mean that yo u s ho uld c ho p the bo lts and make it a traditio nally pro tec ted c limb. That is a no brainer as well but SERIOUSLY s o me peo ple s ho uld s imply no t be allo wed to o wn a drill PERIOD~ESPECIALLY the JERK that bo lted this ro ute The Do o rs ho w un-attrac tive wo uld it be to s ee bo lt hangers and quic k draws hanging right next to every beautiful c rac k c limbing tes t piec e. The line and the ro c k dic tate weather o r no t s o mething is to be a "TRAD Climb" o r a "Spo rt Climb" if yo u c an no t s ee that this ro ute is a gear pro tec ted c rac k c limb and yo u o wn a drill yo u o ught to be lo c ked up until yo u get yo ur head s c rewed o n s traight, no ? If yo u are no t up to the c hallenge o f leading this ro ute o n BOMBER GEAR then maybe yo u s ho uld c o ns ider to p ro ping it...if that is no t c o o l eno ugh fo r yo u then maybe yo u need to gro w a pair s ac k up and learn to us e remo vable pro tec tio n. I am s o rry but this is a s erio us o ffens e in o ur s po rt to day and it needs to be taken s erio us ly to o many peo ple think it is "OK" to jus t go s inking bo lts where ever they pleas e. Sho uld we build Oxygen Bars at all o f the High Camps o n everyo ne o f the Wo rlds 8,000 meter peaks ? If plac ing gear o n that pitc h is to muc h fo r yo u than pic k a different s po rt o r rec reatio nal ho bby Je ns Larsse n
2011-05-20 22:24:03
1. If the ro ute is to tally s afe, yo u s ho uld firs t talk the the guy who bo lted it and s ay yo u want to remo ve them. 2. If the equipper agrees that it is to tally s afe, it c an be c ho pped. 3. If the equipper do es no t agree that it is to tally s afe, the guy who want to remo ve them s ho uld s ho w that it is s afe to take falls anywhere. Edit: I s ho uld add that I am s peaking o f c rac ks o n trad c rags . Many bo lted 6a's are to tally s afe but if they are no t c rac ks and lo c ated in s po rt c rags I do no t think yo u s ho uld c ho p the bo lts . Jason Se rviss
2011-05-20 22:37:12
Sho uld have never been bo lted in the firs t plac e! Go o d jo b!
Brian Kimball
2011-05-20 22:52:54
This is go ing to s o und ris ky but c limbing is a dangero us ris ky s po rt. I do no t think s afety s ho uld be the main c o nc ern in weather o r no t it is appro priate to bo lt c rac k c limbs . Lo o k at the 80' run o ut o n the Mo ns ter OW o r the Ho llo w Flake pitc hes o n El Capitan, tho s e pitc hes are no t s afe at all but do es that mean we o ught to o s ink bo lts in every ten feet?? ? Yo u wo uld lo o s e s o muc h...the s pirit o f c limbing, the s pirit o f adventure and ris k vs . reward. Ano ther great example o f a c las s ic c rac k c limbing tes t piec e being bo lted wo uld be the 130' 5.14a R/X China Do ll in Bo ulder Canyo n, CO. I wo uld lo ve to s ee tho s e bo lts get c ho pped but a few peo ple wo uld be really ups et s o bec aus e o f tho s e few peo ple all o f the majo rity have to live with the ugly bo lts o n this immac ulate perfec tly pro tec t-able c rac k c limbing mas terpiec e. Luc kily the to p half and c rux o f the ro ute were never bo lted as it was to diffic ult to free c limb at the time the lo wer 5.13c s ec tio n was bo lted. The entire ro ute is far fro m "s afe" with its multiple s to ut V9 c ruxes 20' abo ve s mall bras s nuts but if anyo ne bo lted the extens io n I wo uld have to c ho p it fo r s ure. Why? Well we es tablis hed it and it has been freed o n to p ro pe and freed o n gear plac ed o n lead. Yes it is dangero us but that is part o f what makes it o ne o f the bes t 5.14 c rac k c limbing tes t piec es in the entire Wo rld if yo u bo lt it then it will jus t be ano ther Spo rt Crac k. The bo lts als o ruined a CLASSIC A3 o r C2 in this China Do ll. Again if it is to ris ky fo r yo u then yo u are fo rc ed to to p ro pe it o r no t c limb it at all s ame go es with the big Off-Width c rac ks o n El Cap. jaap
2011-05-21 01:19:53
@ Brian: The ro utes yo u talk abo ut are all in areas where trad c limbing is pretty muc h the s tandard. Ro utes are o nly
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@ Brian: The ro utes yo u talk abo ut are all in areas where trad c limbing is pretty muc h the s tandard. Ro utes are o nly bo lted if there is no o ther way to pro tec t them...well, that's ho w it is s uppo s ed to be... o r am I wro ng? What if this ro ute is in an area where there are no o ther c rac ks ...everything els e is bo lted. That's what the guy in the mo vy s ays I think. I gues s trad c limbing is s o mething that is no t do ne in that area. In that c as e it s eems lo gic al that the line is bo lted. No bo dy has the pro per gear bec aus e it's bas ic ally us eles s exc ept fo r that o ne c rac k. All the o ther ro utes are bo lted, s o the "s c ars " in the ro c k are already there. In that c as e it s eems s elfis h to jus t c ho p the bo lts and make it a "tradc limbers o nly". That's ho w I unders tand the s ituatio n anyway. I do n't kno w the ac tual area o r the ro ute...s o maybe I'm c o mpletely wro ng?!? Jan Pålsgård
2011-05-21 06:14:04
Unfo rtunately we s eem to live in a divided wo rld where there are s po rtc limbers and tradc limbers . The tradc limbers als o c limb s po rt while the s po rtc limbers do n`t c limb trad. A c o ntributing fac to r to this divis io n fo r me s eem to be that areas are defined as s po rt-areas o r as trad-areas . We get a c limbing-apartheid.
The s po rt-areas fo s ter a mentality where yo u do n´t lo o k fo r pro tec table trad-c limbs . Yo u bo lt everything, and s o yo u trans fo rm an area o r a c rag that initially had the po tential to be a ric h mixture o f bo th s po rt and trad into a s po rt mo no c ulture where peo ple do n´t learn trad, do n´t s trive to ward c lean c limbing and c anno t even s ee a beautiful pro tec table c rac k like The Do o rs as s o mething to leave bo ltfree. (By the way, what was the reac tio n in the lo c al c o mmunity to c ho pping?)
At s o me plac es there are even peo ple who are pus hing this divis io n. The Granite-gro tto in Bo hus län, Sweden is s uc h a plac e. Here there are perhaps 10 ro utes between 6a and 8b++ that c o uld be pro tec ted with natural gear. So me with a highball s tart…but s till. There are 30+ s po rtro utes if yo u c o unt extens io ns and permutatio ns . As things s tand there are no w o nly two naturally pro tec ted ro utes left, o ne at 6c that is c limbed 1-2 times a year, while the o ther ro ute whic h was led with a preplac ed ballnut 5 years ago at 7c has no t been repeated o n the s harp end (but is to pro peable and has been to pro ped). This , I believe, bec aus e no t even tradc limbers bring gear to a “s po rtc rag”. The s po rtc limbers naturally think that thes e tradc limbs are a was te … but are they really? Do es a c limb o nly get its "value" fro m the Frenc h grade and its number o f as c ents ? Do s o me ro utes ac tually inc reas e in value by getting few as c ents ?
Here we c o me naturally to ano ther c o ntributing fac to r. I believe that the 1-dimens io nal Frenc h gradings ys tem s trips adventure c limbs o f their value as an experienc e. The Britis h s ys tem is no t perfec t, but it tries hard to take the mental fac to r into ac c o unt. Many s po rtc limbers define thems elves by their redpo int grade.
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into ac c o unt. Many s po rtc limbers define thems elves by their redpo int grade. They do n´t want to ris k failure o n a lo wer grade with a high E-fac to r, where E s tands fo r the experienc e.
Finally I think that the mis no mer “trad-“ c o ntributes negativally to the perc eived value o f tradc limbing. Trad is ac tually anything but traditio nal. It has evo lved even mo re than s po rtc limbing due to training, gear and s po rtc limbing fitnes s . Trad as it is defined to day has never befo re exis ted. If po s s ible I wo uld like to have c hanged the name to “adventurec limbing” o r s o mething els e that po ints to its additio nal dimens io ns .
So ins tead o f eth(n)ic c leans ing I wo uld like to s ee us ec lec tic tradc limbers mingle with the s po rtc limbers at the s ame areas – where that is po s s ible. Can´t be a to tally bad thing, c an it? Je ns Larsse n
2011-05-21 08:59:41
In a debate like this it c o uld be mentio n that maybe half o f the ro ute in Santa Linya wo uld be able to do o n trad gear. What I mean with this is that yo u c an no t jus t c ho p do wn bo lts at Santa Linya jus t bec aus e it is do able at trad gear. Santa Linya is a s po rt c rag and I do no t s ee any po int o f having trad ro utes in s uc h c rags as lo ng as they are no t perfec t and to tally s afe c rac ks . If yo u had put up a trad ro ute in Santa Linya no bo dy wo uld have repeated it and I c o ns ider s uc h an ac t a very s elfis h ac t jus t to get the name in the guide bo o k. gianluca
2011-05-21 11:08:09
been o nc e in c adares e befo re the bo lt wars . that c rag is 99% c rac k c limbing where mo s t ro utes c an be s afely do ne o n trad gear, no do ubts aro und this . firs t s o me ro utes have been bo lted and that made the c rag kno wn. then new ro utes have been o pened as trad ro utes . then the trad ro utes ' firs t as c entio nis ts lo o ked bac k at the bo lted ro utes and pro bably tho ught "why are they bo lted?" and s tarted a bo lt war. I gues s o ne o f the firs t bo lt-c ho pped ro ute was a nic e 6c + but i'm no t s ure. To unders tand why it has been bo lted in the firs t plac e o ne s ho uld als o kno w that -there's no trad c limbing in no rthern italy and mo s t c limbers are unlikely to o wn a full 00-4 c am rac k. This was even mo re true s o me years ago . -the ro utes are lo ng (25 meters ?), the c rac ks are very parallel-s ided and as a s po rt c limber i wo uldn't s ho w up witho ut having at leas t s o me do ubles . Cho c ks are pro bably us eles s . Sinc e i finally o wn a full rac k and anyway i no w live far fro m the c rag, i find it nic e that the bo lt c ho pping ac tio n is independent o f the level o f the ro ute.
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independent o f the level o f the ro ute. I als o think that given the italian s ituatio n, i think that the few really eas y ro utes (les s than 6a-b?) s ho uld be left in a "trad s c ho o l" s tate to enc o urage beginners to try the s tyle...ie requiring gear to be s afely c limbed but do able with a s mall and c heap rac k. (maybe intermediate lo wer-o ffs every 15 meters and bo lts o n c rac ks wider than fis t s iz e c o uld be a s o lutio n?) f ridolin se nt
2011-05-21 14:14:41
in wes tern germany is a bas alt c limbing area named ettringen. the ro c k is s uitable bo th fo r trad and s po rtc limbing. the lo c al po lic y has been to leave it to the firs t-as c ender...he dec ides wether bo lts are plac ed o r no t, inc luding the unwritten rule that if it is po s s ible to pro tec t a line with gear then the firs t-as c ender SHOULD refrain fro m bo lting thes e s ec tio ns . SHOULD...no t MUST... this ac tually wo rks o ut very go o d. there has n't been anything even c lo s e to a "bo lt-war". at leas t no t that i kno w o f. in res ult this had led to an area with o ver 1000 ro utes that o ffers a very big variety o f c limbing s tyle, fro m s uperpro tec ted bo lt-ladders o n featureles s pillars to eas y-to -pro tec t c rac ks and ho rrible ps yc ho -tes tpiec es up to 5.13 R/X...AND yo u even c o me ac ro s s bo lted c rac ks that c o uld have been eas ily led o n go o d gear. while this might be an eye-s o re in s o me c as es and i wis h they hadn't been bo lted i pers o nally did apprec iate this a lo t, when i s tarted trad-c limbing a while ago . freeing many eas y c rac ks that had bo lts and no t us ing them was a perfec t "s afer" s tart into trad-c limbing, learning to handle the gear, etc . altho ugh i do think that it it perfec tly go o d having c las s ic c limbing areas where bo lts are no t us ed s uc h as indian c reek, yo s emite o r the ro utes o n britis h grits to ne i do think that c limbing has evo lved and i prefer a mo re to lerant and les s narro w-minded appro ac h when develo ping new areas . Mat s Engquist
2011-05-21 20:20:39
@Jan P책ls g책rd: Why are yo u always trying to es tablis h a c o nflic t between "trad c limbers " and "s po rt c limbers "? What are yo ur go als ? Ho w do yo u benefit fro m s uc h a c o nflic t? Is it jus t "funny" to "debate"? I do n't get it... Why do n't yo u - if yo u had been ho nes t yo u wo uld - invite thes e "idio tic " s po rt c limbers and teac h them abo ut the beauty o f "real" c limbing. Yo u have lo ads o f o ppo rtunities to do that and to end this s tupid c o nflic t. Do yo u want that? Trus t me - no matter what yo u think I will never plac e o ne s ingle bo lt - neither will I c ho p o ne... I kno w "my" kids wo uld benefit fro m being to ught by a mas ter... Crist iT
2011-05-21 23:42:28
hey s o mebo dy s ho uld c o rrec t me if i unders tand wro ng....but in Yo s emite (US) it is the legal law that s ay it is fo rbinden to bo lt !! is n't it ? o f c o urs e i am thinking that this was do ne after c limbers pus hed it to be s o .... Mure san Crist ian
2011-05-23 13:06:07
Trad c limbing als o leaves s c ars o n the ro c k, and in time it is even po s s ible to damage the c rac k s o as to be impo s s ible to plac e the belayers . So I think it's arguable whic h c limbing manner o f ro c ks are "imo ral". Anyway, c ho pping bo lts witho ut the permis s io n o f the o ne who o ppened the ro ute is no t OK. david
2011-05-23 13:34:59
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Cho pping bo lts s eems like a rather fundamentalis t way o f thinking; yo u impo s e yo ur pers o nal ethic s o n all o thers . There is no natural law that s tates that bo lting is bad, it's jus t ethic s . and it's jus t YOUR ethic s , no t any kind o f glo bal, univers al ethic s , a large gro up o f peo ple have different ethic s .
I think there are o nly two po s s ibilities where yo u are allo wed to c ho p bo lts , a demo c ratic dec is io n o f all peo ple c o nc erned with this ac t, o r if the ro c k s tands o n yo ur o wn land. in all o ther c as es : thes e bo lts do n't harm yo u s o yo u have no right to but yo ur o wn interes ts o ver the interes ts o f o thers !
s o me peo ple o n this planet think that go d blablabla... I do n't think that this gives them the right to take ac tio ns agains t o thers , in princ ipal it's jus t the s ame by the way, if there is a c o nflic t, it's very o ne s ided, I do n't think that any s po rts c limber c ares abo ut a trad c limber tradc limbing o r s po rtc limbing o r c limbing with a green hat ... but o bvio us ly trad c limbers have a pro blem with s po rt c limbers , as they do it the "wro ng" way, well I do n't s ee any right o r wro ng, it's jus t a matter o f yo ur pers o nal flavo r; Mat s Engquist
2011-05-24 07:08:42
Perhaps it is jus t a tiny mino rity o f all c limbers who ac tually c are but the "ethic s " argument is quite c o mmo nly us ed to tell o ther c limbers jus t that - that they are no t do ing it the right way. It is allmo s t religio us , and I ac tually tho ugh c limbing was a s po rt - no t a religio n, and the "ethic s " is o ften us ed in an extremely unetic al way. If yo u highlight this in a dis c us s io n it get's even wo rs e - then yo u are no t o nly do ing "it" the wro ng way (whatever "it" is ) - then there is no limit to ho w igno rant yo u will be regarded, s inc e yo u o bvio us ly do no t unders tand the "right way" - jus t like in any unfo rgiving religio n. Ethic al? Hell no .. In additio n, the peo ple talking abo ut the o nly right way to do things are no t at all interes ted in teac hing o thers abo ut this way - thay are o nly extremely fas t to tell them they are wro ng... Mr Lahe y
2011-05-24 11:56:21
It's s elfis h and dis res pec tful to to tally dis regard o ther peo ples preferenc es like that. Jan P책lsg책rd
2011-05-24 13:12:40
This is o bvio us ly an impo rtant dis c us s io n. So me peo ple s eem to believe that it is abo ut the rules o f the game. But
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This is o bvio us ly an impo rtant dis c us s io n. So me peo ple s eem to believe that it is abo ut the rules o f the game. But the rules o f the game c o nc erns what c o ns titutes an o n s ight, a red po int etc . Ques tio ns like tho s e are up to the players o f the different games to dec ide. To bo lt o r no t is a c o mpletely different ques tio n. The Do o r is two different ro utes with o r witho ut the bo lts . The mo ves are to a c ertain degree the s ame, but witho ut the bo lts the experienc e is c o mpletely different. Fo r tradc limbers the experienc e is really impo rtant. At leas t as impo rtant as the mo ves . There are a finite number o f lines like The Do o r. Is it really up to o ne guy with a Hilti to dec ide ho w to manage this res o urc e? Ethic s c o nc erns many things , o ne o f whic h is ho w to s hare a finite res o urc e. There is s eldo m o ne go o d s o lutio n that s atis fies everyo ne, s o it´s impo rtant to talk and try to agree o n a c o mpro mis e. This c o mpro mis e c an inc lude rules fo r ho w to manage the c rags in an area. Of c o urs e, thes e rules do es no t c o ns titute The Law, but they are the bes t thing we c limbers c an ac hieve when bas ed o n mutual res pec t. It is in o rder to ac hieve this mutual res pec t that I argue fo r s po rtc limbers and tradc limbers to mingle at c rags that are no t trad and no t s po rt, but have a little o f bo th. Mats Engqvis t s eems to be whining abo ut c o nflic ts , lac k o f res pec t, teac hing, ... ? Fo r me o ne o f the bes t things and at the s ame time mo s t frus trating things with c limbing and c limbers is the high degree o f anarc hy. In fac e o f the c harming and pro blematic anarc hy my o nly s o lutio n to mo s t o f the c o nflic ts is to go o ut and mingle. Mingling fo s ters mutual res pec t - there are always things to learn fro m eac h o ther. And then we mus t talk ... like this perhaps ?
david
2011-05-24 15:45:16
Is it po s s ible to trad c limb "The Do o r" s imply witho ut us ing the bo lts ? If yes , what wo uld be a plaus ible reas o n fo r c ho pping them? If yo u jus t igno re the bo lts and plac e yo ur o wn gear, great … yo u have all the experienc e, if yo u want to us e the bo lts , great … us e them and find yo ur o wn experienc e … no pro blem … no reas o n to c ho p bo lts Fe rnando Albe rt i
2011-05-24 16:29:40
Interes ting dis c us s io n, happy abo ut the level (apart fro m a few pers o nal attac ks ) This is s o mething i really did no t kno w where i s to o d as i never tradc limbed in my life and do no t kno w the ethic s o f that dis c ipline and did no t want to blabber s o mething s illy. But after reading thes e o pinio ns I mus t s ay that i agree with the po int o f view that it do es depend o n the c rag/c limbing area.. Cheers ! Jan Pålsgård
2011-05-24 16:30:50
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@David Tradc limb "The Do o r" with bo lts in plac e ... wo uldn´t that be s o mewhat like s o lo ing a ro ute with harnes s , ro pe and rac k ... but no t ac tually us ing it. Same experienc e? Hardly.On the o ther hand, what abo ut to pro ping the bo ltfree vers io n? Wo uld that be to o unmanly fo r the s po rtc limbers ?
Brian Kimball
2011-05-24 21:50:52
Jan has very go o d po ints there are SO VERY FEW pure s plitter c rac k c limbs o f this nature o n o ur planet and if yo u s ay it is OK to bo lt this then s o meo ne will go and bo lt the beautiful Salathe Headwall o r s o me o ther c las s ic pure s plitters and s ay "well we are s po rt c limbers that want to c limb a c rac k o n bo lts " whic h is WAY MORE SELFISH than c ho pping the bo lts PERIOD why c ant yo u peo ple s ee this DAMMMITTT!!! Spo rt Climbs are EVERYWHERE there is like a ratio o f 99.9 to 0.001 SO MANY THINGS fo r Spo rt Climbers to c limb o n BOLTS EVERYWHERE!!! BUT there are o nly a VERY, VERY FEW pure hard c rac k c limbing tes t-piec es like The Do o rs and TAINTS its PURITY by having to s tand at the bas e o f SUCH A BEAUTIFUL NATURAL LINE and s ee the big huge bo lt hangers RIGHT NEXT to a PERFECT #1 CAM plac ement UNACCEPTABLE by Wo rld Climbing Standards to have tho s e bo lts there and the REAL SELFISH ACT here was to bo lt the 1 in 1,000,000 c rac k c limb 1 in 1,000,000 fo r every 1-MILLION SPORT CLIMBS there is ONE, ONE SPLITTER like this and to BOLT IT bec aus e yo u are to o s elfis h to c all a to p ro pe as c ent "go o d eno ugh" LEAVING the c rac k in its natural BEAUTY un-marred and un-s c ared by bo lt hangers fo r the ever gro wing number o f peo ple who enjo y the purity and c hallenge o f leading s uc h a line. YOU SAY "jus t igno re the bo lts right next to the perfec t hand jam c rac k" I s ay HOW they are ugly and right in my fac e like a BLOB o f YELLOW paint o n PICASSO MASTERPIECE....I s ay "WHY NOT TOP ROPE and leave thes e 1 in 1,000,000 materpiec e c reatio ns FREE o f ugly bo lt hangers do n't be a s elfis h Spo rt Climber......Pers o nally I have LEAD many bo lted Spo rt Climbs o n natural pro tec tio n and yo u do no t s ee me s elfis hly c ho pping tho s e bo lts bec aus e they are no t "pure s plitter c rac k c limbs " SO PLEASE DO NOT SELFISHLY BOLT PURE SPLITTER CRACK CLIMBS!!!
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