Š Path Press – Archive of AKALIKA FORUM – nanavira.top-talk.net 1 'How to become a noble disciple?' by Vincent on Thu 3 Sep 2009 - 16:58 Hi everyone, The important question here is how does an ordinary man become a noble disciple. It is said that the ordinary man is ignorant and that ignorance results in wrong view. Wrong view is the first factor of the wrong eightfold path. The ordinary man who is a Buddhist monk does not understand liberation. He does not distinguish between temporary liberation and non-temporary liberation. He only knows temporary liberation through his practice of concentration. He thinks nibbana is a place beyond the three realms which can be experienced for an hour or so during the highest concentration practice. He thinks that arahants go to this place after they die. This ordinary man does not see the Noble Eightfold Path. He is not on the path, therefore he makes no real progress he only deludes himself. To make progress one must become a noble disciple. Of these it is said that they have wisdom and that wisdom results in right view. Right view is the first factor of the Noble Eightfold Path. In order for the path to arise one must first acquire right view. Not the so-called mundane right view which is really wrong view. But supramundane right view. A noble disciple is someone for whom the path has arisen. It arises with right view because all the path factors arise together. A lay follower can be a noble disciple and therefore be on the noble eightfold path. This is interesting because lay people did not practice concentration. But then there are two kinds of concentration, mundane and supra-mundane. The supra-mundane kind is a byproduct of right view. Dependent Origination is the insight path to liberation. And Nanavira was correct in saying that it must be understood in a structural sense. The D.O. series are the psychological constructions that must be eliminated for complete enlightenment. Kind regards, Vincent.
by Piotr on Thu 3 Sep 2009 - 19:37 Hi,
Vincent wrote: A lay follower can be a noble disciple and therefore be on the noble eightfold path. This is interesting because lay people did not practice concentration.
© Path Press – Archive of AKALIKA FORUM – nanavira.top-talk.net 2 'How to become a noble disciple?' This is incorrect, since there are cases in the Suttas where the Buddha explicitly recommends practice of concentration to the lay people.
by Vincent on Fri 4 Sep 2009 - 7:48 Hi Piotr, I could be wrong on that point. If anyone can show me that I am wrong I would be most grateful. Another thing which I find strange are the many places where the Buddha is shown practicing concentration. This is of course after his enlightenment. What possible meditation or concentration practice could an enlightened person engage in? If all unwholesome mental factors have been permanently eliminated , then one is already in the best possible state of mind. What more would there be to do? Just a thought, and welcome to our discussion. Kind regards, Vincent.
by Piotr on Fri 4 Sep 2009 - 9:33 Hi, Here you are – an advice to Anathapindika: "Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn't rest content with the thought, 'We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.' So you should train yourself, 'Let's periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.' That's how you should train yourself." – Piti-sutta: Rapture (AN 5.176) Another thing which I find strange are the many places where the Buddha is shown practicing concentration. This is of course after his enlightenment. What possible meditation or concentration practice could an enlightened person engage in? If all unwholesome mental factors have been permanently eliminated , then one is already in the best possible state of mind. What more would there be to do? Just a thought, and welcome to our discussion. Kind regards, Vincent. There is a sutta in Samyutta-nikaya which explains why arahants would practice (in
© Path Press – Archive of AKALIKA FORUM – nanavira.top-talk.net 3 'How to become a noble disciple?' this certain case one of dhutanga practices) even after attaining arahantship. I think that the same reason may apply also to the buddhas and to different kind of practices (like dwelling in meditation): "Lord, I see two compelling reasons that for a long time I have lived in the wilderness and have extolled living in the wilderness... that I have kept my persistence aroused and have extolled having persistence aroused: seeing a pleasant abiding for myself in the here & now, and feeling sympathy for later generations (...)." "Good, Kassapa. Very good. It seems that you are one who practices for the happiness of many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, benefit, & happiness of beings human & divine. So continue wearing your robes of cast off hemp cloth, go for alms, and live in the wilderness." – Jinna-sutta: Old (SN 16.5)
by Vincent on Sat 5 Sep 2009 - 16:36 Hi Piotr, When I said that lay people did not practice concentration , I meant that they are not Taught jhana's or samadhi in the way that monks are. It would not be appropriate for lay followers. However , in the case of ariya savaka lay followers , their minds have strong qualities of concentration. This is the supra-mundane right concentration of those on the noble eightfold path. Anathapindika is a lay ariya savaka. The passage you quote is just one of many such references to the supra-mundane right concentration of the ariya savaka. This is the natural concentration of a mind which is freed ( to some degree ) from unwholesome mental factors. Such as : wrong views, attachments and craving. It is not the result of the practice of concentration ( jhana or samadhi ). Also it is permanent and continuous and requires no effort. It is developed by further development of right view. On the other point about the Buddha's concentration you may be being misled by a number of passages which do speak of Arahants as having something " which still needs to be done ". The problem arises from the lack of precision in the term " arahant ", which is used in several senses. There is for some persons another path beyond the noble eightfold path. This is the tenfold path of the asekha. So there is another stage beyond "arahant", a term which I try to avoid. But I cannot explain this fully until we cover the true description of the path. I regard the four paths and
© Path Press – Archive of AKALIKA FORUM – nanavira.top-talk.net 4 'How to become a noble disciple?' fruits , and the four noble persons , as a teaching intended for puthujjana's ( ie. wrong ). I hope this is of some help. Kind regards, Vincent.
by Mathias on Sat 5 Sep 2009 - 17:04
Vincent wrote: I regard the four paths and fruits , and the four noble persons , as a teaching intended for puthujjana's ( ie. wrong ). Hello Vincent, what exactly do you mean by "wrong"?
by Piotr on Sat 5 Sep 2009 - 22:54 Hi,
Vincent wrote: When I said that lay people did not practice concentration , I meant that they are not Taught jhana's or samadhi in the way that monks are. It would not be appropriate for lay followers. I feel that you're not willing to accept the message of the sutta which is quoted above and you make unneccesary distinctions. It's clear that the Buddha advice to Anathapindika is to periodically make a retreat, and then to seclude from unskillful qualities of mind, enter the jhāna and experience rapture that comes from concentration. You take for granted that an ariya-sāvaka must be someone who is a noble person. But this term in the Suttas reffers to students of the noble ones, not necessarily to the noble students. And it's seems to me that it's a mistake to separate noble right concentration from practice of jhāna – because this is precisely definition of noble right concentration from the Suttas: Four jhānas. In the absence of good argument, you're trying to introduce later term (lokuttara-jhāna), which is absent in the Suttas. This hardly makes any sense to me.
© Path Press – Archive of AKALIKA FORUM – nanavira.top-talk.net 5 'How to become a noble disciple?' As for meditation or concentration practice of an awakened person, there is another, more direct, explanation in the Ānāpāna-saṃyutta: "If anyone, bhikkhus, speaking rightly could say of anything: 'It is a noble dwelling, it is a divine dwelling, it is the Tathāgata’s dwelling,' it is of concentration by mindfulness of breathing that one could rightly say this. "Bhikkhus, those bhikkhus who are trainees, who have not attained their mind’s ideal, who dwell aspiring for the unsurpassed security from bondage: for them concentration by mindfulness of breathing, when developed and cultivated, leads to the destruction of the taints. Those bhikkhus who are arahants, whose taints are destroyed, who have lived the holy life, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, reached their own goal, utterly destroyed the fetters of becoming, those completely liberated through final knowledge: for them concentration by mindfulness of breathing, when developed and cultivated, leads to a pleasant dwelling in this very life and to mindfulness and clear comprehension. If anyone, bhikkhus, speaking rightly could say of anything: 'It is a noble dwelling, it is a divine dwelling, it is the Tathāgata’s dwelling,' it is of concentration by mindfulness of breathing that one could rightly say this" – Icchānaṅgala-sutta: At Icchānaṅgala (SN 54.11)
by Acinteyyo on Sun 6 Sep 2009 - 20:59
Piotr wrote: This is incorrect, since there are cases in the Suttas where the Buddha explicitly recommends practice of concentration to the lay people. To gain right view practice concentration is not necassary.
MN43 Mahavedalla Sutta : Right view "Friend, how many conditions are there for the arising of right view?" "Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: the voice of another and appropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view."
© Path Press – Archive of AKALIKA FORUM – nanavira.top-talk.net 6 'How to become a noble disciple?' To become a noble one there is nothing more to attain but right view in the first place, and it isn't necessary to meditate concentration for hours or such things. I do not want to say that it is easy to gain right view, but it isn't as difficult as some might think. An interesting quote from the Buddha at the end of the "Sarakaani Sutta" (SN55.24). It's about Sarakaani who was proclaimed by the Blessed One to be a Stream-Winner, but the people were indignant and angry, because Sarakaani drank alcohol. Then the Buddha said: Why, Mahaanaama, if these great sal trees could distinguish what is well spoken from what is ill spoken, I would proclaim these great sal trees to be Stream-Winners... bound for enlightenment, how much more so then Sarakaani the Sakyan! Mahaanaama, Sarakaani the Sakyan fulfilled the training at the time of death. the Buddha would proclaim trees to be Stream-Winner, if these trees could distinguish what is well spoken from what is ill spoken!!! best wishes, acinteyyo
by Piotr on Sun 6 Sep 2009 - 23:15 Degree of necessary concentration in order to gain right view is not the point of this discussion. The question is: whether practice of right concentration was recommended to lay-followers by the Buddha.
by Mathias on Sun 6 Sep 2009 - 23:25 Hello acinteyyo, I think you are right. Somewhere in the suttas it is said that entering the stream means entering the Noble Eightfold Path. And the only way to enter the stream/path is via right view. This is the first step. One cannot enter the stream/path through the other seven links of the path or any other door.
© Path Press – Archive of AKALIKA FORUM – nanavira.top-talk.net 7 'How to become a noble disciple?' by acinteyyo on Mon 7 Sep 2009 - 16:56 the second time I read the thread I realized that I have missed something. You're right, my apologies.
by Vincent on Mon 7 Sep 2009 - 19:37 Hi Piotr, The passage you quote gives little support to your position. Let me show you a better one the Citta -samyutta SN 41:9 / IV 300 - 2. This debate has been going on for over 2000 years among Buddhist's , do we really want to continue it on this thread? Here is a reference to a paper by Bhikkhu Bodhi : http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha267.htm The stock passage often understood as describing the four jhana's only describes four degrees of concentration. It says nothing about how that concentration has been attained. Since insight can eradicate defilements one can have a concentrated mind without any jhana practice. I see nothing in the five nikaya's to suggest that concentration practice was taught generally to lay people. In fact common sense would suggest otherwise. Hope this helps to clear this up.
by Vincent on Fri 11 Sep 2009 - 19:54 Hi Mathias, The four paths and four fruits are wrong. The four noble persons ( four pairs ) are wrong. The teaching on the five lower, and five higher fetters is wrong. All this is a false description of the path intended for the puthujjana. Remember he thinks that the three realms really exist, he thinks that nibbana is a place beyond the three realms. He only knows temporary liberation so he mis-understands the Buddha's liberation. Within this false world view it is not possible to give a true description of the path. So a false description is given so that he can think that he knows. The true path starts when the puthujjana drops ignorance and attains wisdom, becoming an ariya savaka. This is the same as the move from wrong view to right view. It is the attainment of the path, which is the stream, so it is stream-winning.
Š Path Press – Archive of AKALIKA FORUM – nanavira.top-talk.net 8 'How to become a noble disciple?' The same as the opening of the dhamma eye. These are all the same thing. The noble eightfold path does not arise until one attains right view. Once one is a stream-winner what comes next is explained by the Buddha in M. 10. "One of two results can be expected, knowledge here and now, or the state of a nonreturner if there is a residue remaining". In other words, some become fully enlightened, some attain a stage slightly lower. So the true picture is one path and one fruit - for some. Two paths and two fruits for others. This is because the nonreturner goes on to complete his task fairly soon, and so ends up fully enlightened just the same. There is, for some, another path beyond the noble eightfold path. Sometimes called the asekha's or the arahants path. In this alternative interpretation the non-returner has completed the noble eightfold path. This alternative understanding takes some time to become clear. At first it must seem to be completely wrong. It may not make sense until more things are explained.
by Komudi on Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 1:01 The reference contributed by acinteyyo quoting from SN:55 ( Sotapattisamyutta Discourse on stream entry) is very relevant to this thread "How to become a noble disciple". I think he may have been criticized unfairly for drifting from the thread unless the topic started out as something else. Right view is more important than practicing concentration to become a noble disciple. While looking up acinteyyo's reference to SN:55 in English translation, presumably by Bhikkhu Bodhi, is not available here at the moment, except by making a costly $133 USD purchase from amazon.com, and whereas the Pali version is freely available online but requires a knowledge of Pali (see http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/tipitaka/14S5/11), the best I could do was a google search which turned up this summary by Jhanananda at http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/stream.htm . This interesting summary says that the Buddha told Mahanama (same sutta?) there is no difference between a lay follower who is liberated in mind and a monk who is liberated in mind for a hundred years. This is an important consolation for those of us who may not be proficient in attaining the jhanas. It doesn't really help to emphasize differences between monks and laymen, although concentration is important too, as the Buddha told the lay donor Anathapindika. I wish I could read more of acinteyyo's delightful reference to stream enterer Sarakaani the Drinker and the insightful sal trees.
© Path Press – Archive of AKALIKA FORUM – nanavira.top-talk.net 9 'How to become a noble disciple?' P.S. Note: an alternate translation of SN:55 is http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn55/sn55.024.wlsh.html
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