© Path Press – Archive of AKALIKA FORUM – nanavira.top-talk.net 1 'The Three Realms - are they real?' by Vincent on Thu 3 Sep 2009 - 6:58 Hi everyone, I would like to try to explain some of my ideas on the Theravada teachings. These ideas may shock some people. It is not my intention to offend anyone, but some people may be upset. Perhaps the best approach would be for me to indicate in advance where this is leading. Anyone who does not want to go there is quite free to stop reading and find something they are more comfortable with. I want to enquire whether we should regard the three realms as being real. This has enormous implications for our understanding of both the Buddhist teachings and our own lives. This seems to be a step beyond anything Nanavira wrote , although we do not know his private beliefs - of course. There seems to be little doubt that most people in Gotama's day took these three realms as really existing. They believed that they had an eternal self so there had to be somewhere where all those past and future lives were lived. So the three realms is not really a Buddhist teaching , it's what ordinary people already believed , and had done for centuries. Gotama probably accepted and tried to work with these existing beliefs , while gradually encouraging people to move in a quite different direction. The teaching on no-self contradicts and undermines the world-view of the ordinary person. How can there be reincarnation if there is no eternal self to reincarnate? What I am saying is that early Buddhism taught reincarnation to lay people and monks , while also teaching something else which , for those who looked into it deeply - destroyed such a view. Now I know what you are thinking , Buddhism taught rebirth not reincarnation. And you are right. But what if the same thing applies here also? Do you see how the real teaching could be the opposite of the apparent teaching? If a noble disciple has realized this then he will not say anything in public. He does not want to upset those who are not ready for this. But he might share his view with others that he feels are receptive. The followers of Buddhism would thus naturally seperate into two groups , shall we call them the ignorant and the wise? The strange feature of this is that the ignorant ones are not aware of the wise group. There is much more if anyone is interested , but this should be enough to get us started. Kind regards, Vincent.
© Path Press – Archive of AKALIKA FORUM – nanavira.top-talk.net 2 'The Three Realms - are they real?' by acha on Thu 3 Sep 2009 - 9:38 Vincent, I shall have to watch out I don’t get too involved in an endless message-and-response session with you. Unlike you, I am not retired! You say that, as a first step in explaining what your thoughts are on Theravada teachings, you want to “enquire whether we should regard the three realms as real”. You then go on to make a range of other points that develop from this. This seems to raise more questions than it answers, and leads you to propose that the “real teaching could be the opposite of the apparent teaching”. This naturally doesn’t seem like a very comfortable position to be in. Rather than getting bogged down in trying to answer all the questions that you raise (which may or may not be possible), I want to gently suggest again that you carefully read Nanavira’s writings to appreciate and hopefully imbibe the existential attitude that he says is necessary in order to approach the Buddha’s teachings. This enables you to develop a naturally reflexive attitude, enhances detachment, and helps you to start to see how the things in your experience arise, change and fall away. In some of his letters, Nanavira makes it clear that if a person doesn’t get back to these basic building-blocks, but instead focuses on abstract, lexicological, or in other ways speculative approaches then they will get confused, disappointed, frustrated and even possibly drive themselves insane. I think you are in danger of doing this (although hopefully not going insane!). As Nanavira suggests (following the existential approach), you would be better placed to start from your daily, lived experience. Don’t worry about speculative matters that you have no control over and which you will never really get to the bottom of. I could direct you to any number of passages in both the Notes and his letters where Nanavira would address and deal with the kinds of issues you raise. But I am too lazy, and really this message permeates all his writings – and so you could start anywhere and the point would soon be made. It may not be sexy, but there is really no other way. But even with my own limited efforts, I can vouch that progress can be made.
© Path Press – Archive of AKALIKA FORUM – nanavira.top-talk.net 3 'The Three Realms - are they real?' Hopefully this makes sense. Good luck, Acha
by Mathias on Sun 6 Sep 2009 - 19:51 Hello Vincent, I'm neither offended or upset. I don't know whether the three realms exist or not. My understanding of anatta or no-self does not contradict my belief in rebirth and other realms of existence. But if I understand the Buddha correctly, no direct knowledge of these things is necessary in order to attain liberation. You seem to be of the same opinion here. My main motivation is the suffering of this life. It's a present problem and it needs a present solution. I cannot wait for the time after death, because (fear of) death or becoming annihilated (even for a moment) is my main problem. Other people may have different problems. I think there is a difference between telling the untruth and not telling the truth. I believe that the Buddha never told an untruth, but that doesn't mean that he told everyone with a wrong view that he's wrong. For example: If I would hold the wrong belief that the earth is flat, why should the Buddha correct me? Whether the earth is flat or not is certainly not important for a correct understanding of the four noble truths. So there might be certain things in the Suttas which are one the same level as the flat earth. Best wishes, Mathias
by Vincent on Thu 10 Sep 2009 - 21:43 Hi Mathias, You say that you do not know whether the three realms are real or not. And yet you say that you do believe in rebirth. I think that if someone where to drop the belief in rebirth, there would be no reason to believe in the reality of the three realms.
Š Path Press – Archive of AKALIKA FORUM – nanavira.top-talk.net 4 'The Three Realms - are they real?' Conversly if someone drops the belief in the three realms, then they can only believe in rebirth in a more restricted sense. For example rebirth in the human and animal planes only. We are told that the enlightened person "knows and sees things as they really are", but we are not told what it is that he knows and sees. If the belief in the reality of the three realms is a false belief, a delusion, then would it not have to be dropped at some point on the path? Kind regards, Vincent.
by Vincent on Thu 10 Sep 2009 - 21:46 Hi everyone, I have been thinking about how best to continue this thread , while staying on-topic. I have found several passages in the five nikaya's which I think might be relevant. The first one is: "That end of the world wherein one is not born, does not grow old or die, pass away or reappear, that I declare, is impossible to be known, seen or reached by travelling. But, friend, I do not declare that one can make an end of suffering without reaching the end of the world. Friend, I do proclaim that in this very fathom-long body, with its perceptions and consciousness, is the world, the world's arising, the world's cessation and the path leading to the world's cessation." A.N. II. 48 What does this mean? What is meant by world here? Does it refer to the three realms or does it mean something else? I am not sure what it means. You may say that the three realms are a cosmology - that an outer world is meant. While this passage talks of an inner world. But if the three realms are just a view are we not talking about something generated in the mind - and therefore internal? Your comment's on this would be welcome. Kind regards, Vincent. Note: Tranlation by Bhikkhu Nanananda in "Concept and Reality" BPS 1986 page 83.
© Path Press – Archive of AKALIKA FORUM – nanavira.top-talk.net 5 'The Three Realms - are they real?' by Mathias on Fri 11 Sep 2009 - 17:13 Hello Vincent, you wrote: If the belief in the reality of the three realms is a false belief, a delusion, then would it not have to be dropped at some point on the path? If it's a hindrance on the path it should certainly be dropped. Or even better: It should not be introduced and supported in the first place. But there are in fact people (and the Buddha was obviously one of them) who claim to see, hear and communicate with beings of other realms, often with the deceased. To assume that they are all liars or mentally ill is in my opinion not the appropriate way to deal with that problem. With regard to your last posting the following sutta (SN 35.23) might be of interest: "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Best wishes, Mathias
© Path Press – Archive of AKALIKA FORUM – nanavira.top-talk.net 6 'The Three Realms - are they real?' by Vincent on Fri 11 Sep 2009 - 19:59 Hi everyone, Here is another passage from the five nikaya's, which does seem to be talking about at least one of the three realms: "There is, monks, that sphere wherein there is neither earth nor water nor fire nor air, wherein is neither the sphere of infinite space, nor that of infinite consciousness, nor that of nothingness, nor that of neither-perception nor non-perception; wherein there is neither this world nor a world beyond, nor moon and sun. There, monks, I declare, is no coming, no going, no stopping, no passing away, no arising. It is not established, it continues not, it has no object. This, indeed, is the end of suffering." Ud. 80. ( Nanananda page 71 ). This passage could be understood as saying that the four great elements do not exist. That the immaterial realm does not exist. That the sensuous realm and the finematerial realm do not exist. Of course this is only one possible interpretation, there are others. Your observations on this would be most welcome.