17 minute read
Leadership, NATOPS…and Amazon
Leadership, NATOPS…and Amazon
By CDR Matt “Trash” Persiani, USN (Ret.)
This is a transition story of how my resume of experience in Naval Aviation, insightful civilian leadership, and NATOPS knowledge got me a job with Amazon Web Services.
When I made the decision to transition out of the Navy, I set my sites on the big tech world of cloud computing. I see cloud technology as the way of the computing future, and I wanted to be a part of it. The largest cloud computing companies in the world, Google, Microsoft, and Amazon, are all competing for the Joint Warfare Cloud Computing (JWCC) contracts as part of the DoD’s effort to migrate into the cloud computing realm. Post-Navy, I decided that industry is where I wanted to be. I could envision my path forward and I knew I had a chance despite being a helicopter pilot and not a computer engineer. My undergrad degree was in Information Technology from Virginia Tech, but it was 21 years old. My IT education was antiquated to say the least– the programming I learned was to fix Y2K problems! But because of the JWCC initiative I knew my security clearance and program management skills would be valuable. I saw the JWCC as an opportunity to put one foot in industry while also keeping one foot in the DoD so I could leverage what experience I did have in a world far away from Naval Aviation.
In my transition process, I rewrote my resume countless times and read hundreds of job descriptions. Reading the job descriptions for the big tech companies, especially in cloud computing, proved demoralizing at times when I constantly read the minimum requirements for the roles. This was especially true for someone like myself who has been a helicopter pilot for the past 21 years with zero industry cloud experience, and who was not a programmer or network engineer. The overarching theme of the roles posted on Amazon, Google, and Microsoft was for someone who had a Top Secret or higher clearance, 5-10 years of Leadership and Program Management experience, and was a computer scientist or network engineer with 3-5 years of cloud experience. I’m still not sure where these unicorns exist but I figured I had two of the three, so why not me?
Trying to get my foot in the door with the big tech companies was harder than I anticipated. I finally got an opportunity when N98 supported me to do a Skillbridge Program. I was able to connect with the Skillbridge Recruiter and Program Manager at Amazon Web Services (AWS) who was aggressive in helping me find a fellowship. He connected me with the technical recruiter for the Amazon Dedicated Cloud (ADC) Network Engineering Team. During my phone call screening, I told the recruiter the extent of my technical experience. He assured me the team he wanted to place me on needed my skill set despite my lack of computer networking experience. The team was having problems recruiting people with a security clearance, leadership, and program management skills who were also experienced cloud network engineers. Apparently, those people are hard to find. So, I interviewed with John, the Team Manager. I was very upfront with him regarding my technical experience, but he told me, “Hey, you have two of the things I can’t teach. Leadership and a security clearance. I can teach you networking.” I got the fellowship with AWS working as a Technical Program Manager (TPM) designing networks for new cloud data centers.
The fellowship was going great! I was placed on a great team and assigned a great mentor who really took the time to teach me the ins and outs of the AWS Cloud and how to manage the building of networks for data centers. Our team’s network engineer was a former Navy Sailor who loved to tell me his sea stories. He was also a great mentor and teacher for me to understand the nuts and bolts of massive computer networks. The whole team, from John on down, really embraced me and wanted me to succeed. After a few weeks, I was told I would get my chance to “Loop” for a full time position, and that’s when I started getting nervous.
The “Loop” is Amazon’s interview process. Nobody escapes doing the Loop, it is sort of a badge of honor within the company. If Jeff Bezos decided to come back to Amazon, I’m sure he’d have to Loop. The Loop entails a writing assignment along with about five separate interviews, each about an hour long. For the TPM Loop, which I was facing, the interviewers deep dive into your leadership, program management, culture, and technical experience. The Loop is a HAC Board on steroids.
So why was I nervous for a HAC Board? I wasn’t, for the most part. I can talk about leadership and program management with the best of them. I was nervous for the technical part of the interview. I worked hard and had learned a lot of technical networking knowledge in my first month as a fellow at AWS, but I knew that I could not hold up against the other TPMs on my team who have been doing networking for over 10 years. There was no way I was going to pass the technical part of the Loop answering questions about diagnosing Border Gateway Protocols or mapping a subnet. I knew I could get there; I just needed more time than my two month fellowship would allow.
I scheduled a meeting with John to discuss my concerns of heading into a potential technical firing squad on my Loop. I could not afford being set up to fail. I had two months left in the Navy and needed a job. John was great and understood my concern and situation. He offered me the opportunity to continue with the fellowship and he would strip the technical portion of my Loop and bring me on as a regular Program Manager (PM) instead of a TPM with the understanding that I would study to earn the “T” in six to nine months. Basically, hire me as an H2P with the expectation of making HAC.
John explained how important the “T” was at Amazon, a tech company, and why it was in the best interest for both me and the team. The difference between a TPM and a PM at Amazon is the difference between a designated and undesignated Sailor in the Navy. There is plenty of work for an undesignated Sailor to do but only a designated Sailor has a career path with true value to the organization. Same goes for a TPM vs. PM at Amazon. Please do not mistake this as PMs are not valued by Amazon, they certainly are, but TPMs and PMs are on different pay scales for a reason. The TPM is expected to have the ability to get their hands dirty with the Network and Software Engineers in the troubleshooting of technical hardware and software issues. Sound familiar? Having a PM doing the work of a TPM would be like having a VFA pilot as your copilot on an FCF. The fighter pilot can read a checklist and understands aviation but can do very little in troubleshooting with the maintenance team to create an up helicopter. In a way, Amazon program management values technical acumen the same way as Naval Aviation.
The last month of my fellowship went great, and I continued to learn volumes. Slowly, I was able to hold my own in the conversations with the engineers. It was time for my Loop. Despite our earlier conversation, John decided to test my technical knowledge during my interview. He gave me plenty of warning and opportunity to study. He also told me that if I did well enough on the program management and leadership portions of the Loop, but fell short on the technical stuff, our original plan to be hired as a PM was still an option. I studied Amazon’s 16 leadership principles and had career experiences for each one to demonstrate I met Amazon’s leadership and program management standards. I also studied my technical notes, the Networking For Dummies book, and many Amazon training videos. My career in Naval Aviation readied me for this experience.
After my five hour Loop, my brain felt like I just finished my first HAC Board. Overall, it went great. The leadership and program management portions were tough but nothing a Naval Aviator couldn’t handle. I thought I even held my own during the technical interview. There were plenty of questions I didn’t know the answer to but, as advised, when I didn’t know an answer, I didn’t guess. After a few days John told me I did well, but I was going to be given a job offer as a PM with a training track to be a TPM. I always knew that was the most likely outcome and I was pumped! After a tough year, I got my job doing cloud computing at Amazon.
Then came the job offer. Remember I mentioned how the organization values a designated Sailor vs. an undesignated Sailor? I found out just how much Amazon values a TPM vs. a PM. I expected my total compensation to be lower as a PM compared to a TPM, but I was not prepared for the offer I received. I could not support my family on the salary offered in Northern Virginia, even with my retirement income. The offer was beyond the reasonable negotiating window.
With only three weeks, and two paychecks, remaining in the Navy at this point, my situation wasn’t as dire as it seemed. Throughout my fellowship at Amazon, I hedged my bets and continued my job search with other companies. I wasn’t about to put all my eggs in one basket. I was fortunate enough to get a great job offer in the global risk management division of a large financial tech company. The job was great, and the total compensation was where I wanted to be. The company is incredible, and even though financial risk doesn’t excite me as much as cloud computing, I was fortunate to have that job offer.
I scheduled a meeting with my Amazon manager John to discuss my job offer. I told him about my other offer and said thank you, but no thank you to my offer from Amazon. After I compared the two job offers with him, he didn’t question my decision one bit and he knew I was doing what was best for my family. He told me he felt bad the job offer was low, way lower than he even expected it to be, but Amazon has their pay scales and his hands were tied. John also told me that he thought I did well enough on the technical part of my Loop where he voted to bring me on as a TPM, but the other interviewers voted for the PM route. Too much detail for this story, but even though John was the hiring manager, Amazon’s hiring process did not give him the final say. I thanked John for the opportunity he gave me and said my goodbyes to the team I worked with as a fellow.
Two days later, as I was proceeding forward with my financial tech job offer, I received a phone call from John. He told me that he went to bat for me and pleaded my case to the Director for AWS Cloud Networking Operations, Greg, to be hired as a TPM. John said Greg was willing to have a conversation with me to discuss the opportunity and to expect a call that afternoon. I had no idea what to expect but I wasn’t getting my hopes up. What I expected to be a “conversation” turned into a two hour phone interview.
Greg wanted to test my technical acumen to see if I could handle the TPM role. For the first hour he dug deep into my job as a Requirements Officer in the Pentagon. Greg has no military or aviation background, but he asked perceptive questions regarding conversations I had with NAVAIR engineers trying to acquire a passive detection system for the MH-60S. We talked about the SLAP/SLEP process as well as technical upgrades to the MQ-8C to include an optical landing system with see-and-avoid technology and my role as a Requirements Officer to ensure we deployed the capabilities our customers needed. Trying to describe the technical details of my job at N98 to someone who doesn’t speak Pentagon, budgets, NAVAIR, or Naval Aviation was difficult to say the least.
Greg’s second round of questioning was the most interesting. He asked me to pick a system, whether it be a system I worked on at AWS or any other system and describe the technical details. He wanted me to get as detailed as I could while discussing the system engineering and dependencies. First thing that went through my head was, I thought I was done with NATOPS Checks. Guess not, because I spent the next 45 minutes breaking down the Hydraulic System of the MH-60S NATOPS Check. I started off with, “There are two primary pumps and one backup …” and went from there. I discussed the Leak Detection and Isolation System, Tail Rotor Servos, Boost Servos, and more. I even went into the emergency procedures and how pilots interacted with the system. He asked a lot of questions throughout. Keep in mind I hadn’t thought about the Hydraulic System in over two years. I barely thought about it during my CO/XO tour. I think my description of the Hydraulic System to Greg would have passed a CO’s NATOPS Check but any MH-60 JO NATOPS Officer probably would’ve laughed at my systems knowledge.
So, there I was, after a year of job searching, a Skillbridge fellowship, a rejected job offer, breaking down basic NATOPS knowledge with the Director for Amazon Cloud Networking Operations for a Hail Mary pass. It worked! After two hours Greg told me he was impressed. He said I was verbose when discussing my Pentagon job but when I discussed the systems of a helicopter I sounded like an engineer. He told me that I sounded confident while getting extremely technical. My reply was that it came from a place of confidence and 21 years of Naval Aviation training, and that any Naval Aviator could do it. Greg’s final compliment to me was that he wished every TPM at Amazon could discuss their systems the way I knew helicopter systems. Again, imagine what a JO could’ve done. He said all I needed was some time around Amazon spaces in conversations with engineers to learn the systems and I would be fine. I got the job offer for a TPM at AWS the next day. A job offer which I gladly accepted.
Instructor pilot Marine Capt. John Anderson and student pilots Marine 1st Lt. Shay Farrell and ENS Mathew Kautzman review their preflight brief prior to last familiarization (FAM) flight.
U.S. Marine Corps photo by 1st Lt. Pawel Puczko, USMC.
In the following weeks after I accepted my job offer with Amazon, I reflected on how the hiring process transpired. My first thought was that civilians who have no ties to Naval Aviation mostly understand our skills are transferable to industry. What I believe is misunderstood by our civilian counterparts who read our resumes is the standards Naval Aviators and Naval Aircrew train to in both systems and tactics and how those standards could be valued by their organizations. I’m still in shock that a leader at Amazon Web Services wished his tech people knew their systems as well as a retired Naval Aviator knew his aircraft systems. The standards we hold ourselves to in Naval Aviation, along with our leadership abilities, are what make us amongst the best in the world at mission accomplishment. But how do you translate the total value of a Naval Aviator or Naval Aircrew successfully, beyond the job descriptions and accomplishments, on a resume or LinkedIn profile when applying for a job that has nothing to do with aviation or the Navy? I haven’t figured that one out yet. Based on my experience as a helicopter pilot and Naval Officer, I never would’ve directly applied for the role I was hired into and if I did apply I wouldn’t blame a hiring manager for passing on me. What it took for me was an opportunity to put my ability on display via Skillbridge and show them I could do the job. Every single one of you could have done what I did and probably have done it better.
My second thought was a reflection of my own leadership style. How do I professionally judge the value of people to an organization? How do I determine what people are ultimately capable of? Do I take their potential more on face value by reading FITREPS, EVALS, resumes, LinkedIn, and word-of-mouth? Sure, those are good inputs, but have I given people the opportunity to demonstrate their value outside of their subject matter expertise for the sake of organizational growth? Have I asked them the right questions? I’m not sure I’ve ever taken that risk on someone. Up until now, I’m not sure anyone has taken that risk on me. On a macro level, the Navy moves people to different jobs to develop us as well rounded leaders but, at the end of the day, we mostly remain within the DoD and have some level of useful knowledge no matter the billet. Even though I had little technical experience required by all the cloud computing job descriptions I discussed earlier, I didn’t fully understand how much Naval Aviation did to prepare me for this career transition. I got the job opportunity I set out for because a couple of civilian leaders, with no military experience, gave me the opportunity to demonstrate the value I described on my resume. They also dug deep with some odd questions to determine that I would be successful in their organization because they saw the inherent value in me which was developed from a career in Naval Aviation. I won’t let them down.
When it comes time for you to transition out of the service, remember that the totality of everything you have worked on in your career, no matter how menial of an impact you think it might have on your future is the key; experiences to include SDO, NATOPS Lectures, Admin Queens, SAR Evals, and FOD Walkdown, have contributed to and enriched the value you bring to an organization. When I started my career transition process, I thought my value to industry was the culmination of my accomplishments listed on my LinkedIn profile. What I have realized is that we are more valuable than the jobs we’ve held and the accomplishments we describe on our resume. Our challenge is in translating our comprehensive value developed duringa career in Naval Aviation to someone outside of the DoD. Not easy, but not impossible either.
Good luck! Study NATOPS, because you never know, and fly safe. If I can ever answer questions or help with your transition, find me on LinkedIn. I’m excited for the opportunity to pay forward the help that so many have offered me this past year. I’ll see you on the other side.
