21 minute read
A Big, Bright, Colorful World
by SDC Journal
AN INTERVIEW WITH SONYA TAYEH
BY CAMDEN GONZALES
SDC Foundation’s podcast series, Choreographers in Conversation, invites choreographers to interview other choreographers whose work excites them as a way to learn more about their craft and preserve their stories. In March 2024, Sonya Tayeh— winner of the 2020 Best Choreography Tony Award for Moulin Rouge!—spoke with Camden Gonzales, who currently works with Sonya as that production’s associate choreographer. The podcast of their conversation, which has been edited for print, is available on the SDC Foundation website, along with a host of other interviews and panel discussions about the working processes and experiences of directors and choreographers over the past four decades.
CAMDEN GONZALES | The first question I want to ask you is about your creative process. When we met the very first time, I asked you how you start and you said, “Without music,” which to me was such a revelation.
SONYA TAYEH | When I first start working, I need to be with the script in a quiet room. I need to be in my own body, with all of my own thoughts. If I’ve heard the music before, it’s very much in my head—but I want to be able to apply what I visualize without the sax inspiring me, or this verse inspiring me, so I can have a free-for-all of ideas just floating around. My thought process is really swift, and my visual ideas are very flashy and fast. To keep up with them, I try to create a calmer, quieter space to be with my thoughts. This way my thoughts and my instincts have the volume first, and then I start to add the other layer of volume, which is music. Once I turn the music on, it’s a fun game for me, where the phrases have freedom. I didn’t beat them down yet with the constraints of story; they have this freedom so I can move them to different songs and then apply the musicality inside this raw movement. Does that make sense?
CAMDEN | It makes a lot of sense. Having experienced some of that with you now, I feel that it’s such an inspiring and openly creative way of functioning.
SONYA | It feels a little freer to me.
CAMDEN | I recently got to see Is It Thursday Yet? [at the Perelman Performing Arts Center in New York], a beautiful show that you made with Jenn Freeman.
SONYA | Jenn is someone I’ve known for many, many years and we’re very close; she has danced in many of my works and has been an associate of mine. She’s an amazing artist. She received an autism diagnosis at 34. When she told me, we were already in the process of building a one-woman—a one-human—show for her. Then, when she received this diagnosis, we kept thinking, “We need to turn and this needs to be the piece that we explore.”
CAMDEN | I was so in love with it; you had said to me earlier that you wanted it to feel like a pop-up book, which I think was achieved in such a beautiful way. But I left the piece wondering, how did they even begin to make this into a piece of theatre?
SONYA | I’m really intrigued by recordings of conversations. When we decided to do this piece, we talked about Jenn recording her sessions with her diagnostician, the person who diagnosed her. She started recording all of her therapy sessions, and we recorded literally all of our conversations. And then, her father was one of those dads back in the ’80s who had a camcorder on his shoulder all his life, all of Jenn’s life, so we had all this material already to explore. Because Jenn received this diagnosis later in life, the videos became a way to go back in her life and almost be able to reference evidence.
Once I started to watch those videos, I kept saying, “This is a theatrical analysis of a life pre-diagnosis and post-diagnosis. Let’s lean into that and show that on the stage.” If we wanted to explore the difficulties of being in a social setting, we had the example of her being little, at a recital at school, and how overwhelming that was. So we had these physical representations of what it feels like in Jenn’s brain—and the beauty in that, too. Because it was very important for us to remember what she said when I asked her how she felt when she received the diagnosis. She said, “I felt my world expanding. I felt myself opening up to possibility that I’m not wrong in this brain, I just need some tools.”
CAMDEN | Wow.
SONYA | It made me, as a director, think of a pop-up book. And because of all those recordings in her basement, we wanted to create her basement. We rebuilt her basement and then showed her getting this diagnosis, then going home and sifting through her life in these boxes. What all of that brings up is how you reckon with this new awareness of a brain and how to live with it.
CAMDEN | How long did you all work on it before it debuted at La Jolla Playhouse?
SONYA | Three years.
CAMDEN | And how did you find your way into the physicality of the show?
SONYA | Jenn and I co-choreographed it and co-conceived it. Jenn’s such an amazing choreographer and knows her body. Her beautiful brain has a way of creating movement; it’s very analytical and focused. I wanted her need for repetition and order to be shown inside of the movement. All of that is so inspiring for a choreographer. You already have these tools of repetition and alignment and symmetry and focus. We talked a lot about that. And then Jenn would build phrases and I would ask questions and challenge them, and we would create building blocks from there.
CAMDEN | Many people, at least of my generation, were introduced to you with So You Think You Can Dance. I remember seeing some of the first few things you did, as someone who grew up with traditional musical theatre, and feeling as though I didn’t know dance could be that—especially on TV. How did that come about; how did that journey happen and how did you arrive there?
“I had this desire to fuse all those parts of me together. Why do we say, ‘commercial dance?’ Why do we say, ‘theatre dance?’ What if you just fused them? What would that do?”
SONYA | I was teaching for my friend who had an amazing dance company in San Francisco in my late twenties. I had received my degree from Wayne State in Detroit and came from a really amazing group of female professors who created their own techniques. They taught me so much about individuality and the freedom within that, finding your voice, and really doing the work to study that so you can walk in with the confidence of being able to articulate, through your body and your voice, who you are and how you want to make work. But I also come from the underground dance scene in Detroit. And also at that time, music videos and iPod commercials, all of those things started to build up dance and celebrate dance.
I had this desire to fuse all those parts of me together. Why do we say, “commercial dance?” Why do we say, “theatre dance?” What if you just fused them? What would that do? I said, “I think I need to move to LA to understand how I can do that.” What’s really thriving there is that there are so many different genres. So I moved there. I made sure I was in a competent place before I moved there—I was 30 or 31—but I had nothing. This was when you would make flyers and put the posters on cars and pass them out at delis and stores in the neighborhood.
I was there for about 10 months, confused about how to make something happen. I decided to have a show, to create a show that consisted of what could be a Gap commercial, or an iPod commercial. I think I made 10 or 12 five- or eight-minute pieces, something that crazy, just to really show the different sides of me. I had a bunch of amazing dancers stay with me and sleep in my living room.
At that time there was a dance showcase called the Carnival in LA; it was a huge dance showcase and being asked to have a piece there was a really big deal. They asked me, and I brought one of the pieces that I really loved there before my own show opened. The agency that I wanted to be signed with happened to be there, and said, “We’re intrigued by your work, how can we see more?” I was like, “I just moved here, but I have a show coming.” I drove to the agency and dropped flyers off and saved seats for them, had my show, and then the next day I signed with them. Then a month later they sent some of that work to the producer of So You Think You Can Dance, and that’s how I got it.
CAMDEN | What an amazing, courageous string of events.
SONYA | It was really fun. It was, of course, overwhelming, but it was such a raw time of exploration and taking risks and leaning into myself. I met so many incredible artists during that time of my life, on that show. I also learned how to embody myself, because there were some moments where I was the “weird” choreographer or the “strange” choreographer. There are pros and cons to those types of opportunities. And also, anytime there is a moment in your life where people recognize you, they expect you to do that same thing forever. It’s been a fun challenge to break those forces down.
The show changed my life. It made me really trust my instincts because the pace was so fast.
CAMDEN | What was the learning curve like for suddenly being on TV in this fast-paced environment with dancers you’ve never met before?
SONYA | I am very shy, and I have no filter, so you see everything. It was overwhelming because you’re meeting those dancers and you’re, “Hi, nice to meet you. Let’s make this thing that keeps you in the show.” The stakes were high. I think, as I learned to trust myself, the room became about the process and became calmer, and my work felt more fruitful and had more meaning for me. I would say, “Breathe. We’re going to make this thing together, and I’m not going to leave until we find my idea in you.” I came in with a lot of ideas. First, I had to, in order to handle it. But when I knew it was about the process, I would remember that more, and the dancers would remember that more, and it led to some really monumental times.
CAMDEN | It benefits everybody if you’re making it with each other and for each other—to make everyone not just look good but feel good about what they’ve made.
SONYA | You want both. Just because it’s fast doesn’t mean you can’t learn something about yourself. I think that these shows and commercial work get a bad rap. There’s much substance and clarity and harmony and a learned form that changes people’s lives. That time was a rollercoaster, of course, but in the end, I really cherish it. As I said, I was leaning into my intuition. I really credit that time to my trusting of my intuition now. I’m a body listener, and I would see the dancers either fall into it or retreat. The minute you start feeling that retreat, you turn, and you meet them. I think that’s a very big message about the world, how to meet each other to make the body softer, which makes the voice louder, and then there’s more understanding. Do you know what I mean?
CAMDEN | Yes. I also think of the trust that they had to have in you as very, very young people in this high-stakes environment. Everyone’s stakes are so high and to slow down, cool down the temperature inside of that is such a great lesson for all things.
You mentioned categorizing dance, and I’m curious about the breaking down of the barriers of, “Oh, this person’s a modern dancer” or “This person is that.” You also mentioned in that time it started to feel like people expected one thing of you. How do you approach breaking down those barriers?
SONYA | I think it’s about communicating, demanding, grounding yourself. I didn’t come from a foundation of technical knowledge when it came to dance. I have more now, but I come from a place of feeling. When I get charged about a project and asked to do it, I trust that I belong in the room and I have something to offer. What comes out based on what I’m asked to do is just what comes out, my instinctual thought process. Modern, contemporary—I would understand it more if it didn’t separate us so much. When things start to separate us, I think something’s wrong, and the systems are confused. Ideas are supposed to bring us together. I’m not saying that those forms aren’t important—they’re so important. But when something is put upon you—“you’re this” and “you never said that”—and they try to boldface it, I just immediately start to erase and say, “I’m for the cause. I’m for the process and the project. What as a collaboration are we trying to achieve in this story?” I try to be respectfully honest and stern in my response regarding people telling me who I am. I don’t think it’s right to do that to anyone.
CAMDEN | What excites you most now moving forward?
SONYA | Well, I have some really exciting projects coming up but I can’t say what they are.
I’ve been in love with the thriller and horror genres all my life. I come from a family that loves the classics of these dark genres, and I want to lean into that more. When someone asks me what my dreams are, I don’t have dreams per se; I just love making things and love being in the room, collaborating and focusing on challenges. It’s my favorite thing to do. But specifically now, I’m really leaning into, as I grow in age, wanting to celebrate that side of myself more. I think there’s a lot of value in movement when it comes to the thriller genre and the horror genre, whether it be in film or on the stage. I think there’s been this notion that they don’t work on stage. I don’t believe that. A lot of why I’m intrigued by these genres is because they are psychological; I love digging into the brain and the psychological motivation of things and what trauma does, or what resistance does, or what fear does to the body. I’m headed that way with some really exciting things, and I want to really press my foot on the gas more on that side of myself.
CAMDEN | Something that we’ve talked about a lot is the use of dance in theatre or storytelling and how sometimes it can feel like dance gets pushed to the bottom of the list even though it can be just as valuable as a storytelling tool. I wonder if you would share some of your feelings about that. I know you have many!
SONYA | Indeed, indeed. That I can talk about forever! I get really emotional and frustrated about it.
Many times—which I find very disheartening—it’s, “Okay, then the dancing.” “Okay, now the dancing.” That dance can hold a story is constantly commented on as a surprise; it is constantly questioned that dance can provoke a feeling and drive a narrative. To those people, I say, “Let’s try an exercise. If that’s your belief system, let’s take all of the dancing away. Opening a door is movement, how you sit as an actor is movement. Let’s take everybody that dances or moves in the space or has to feel something in their body away, and let’s see who’s left on the stage.” I’m curious if there will be anybody left.
CAMDEN | Is there anyone left?
SONYA | It keeps me up at night, honestly. You know how serious I am about uplifting an ensemble. I don’t understand it when an ensemble is seen as a lower tier of people when truly, I have witnessed in my work and in other people’s work, people having a profoundly visceral experience watching a dance piece on a stage, just bodies in motion. I don’t think there’s enough trust that that is a real thing and requires a real talent, and these artists work in an Olympian fashion to excel in what they love. They need to be respected, admired, and uplifted in the work that they make, in the worlds they help create. In the theatre, when we are building a world without them it’s a small world, and a world I don’t want to live in. I want to live a big, bright, colorful world.
CAMDEN | I find myself being allergic to the words, “It’s too danced.” What does that even mean?
SONYA | I don’t know what that means. It’s far from your thought process and mine. Instinctually, we understand what dance does. We’ve sat together and have had visceral experiences together.
CAMDEN | Yes, in a rehearsal room, in a space where we made something to see and feel so completely. It’s such an exciting space to be in when that can happen. But I sometimes wonder—to your point that opening a door can be choreography—if the point of view is only dance is dance steps—5, 6, 7, 8—it’s a small view of what can be beautiful.
SONYA | I don’t think people understand exactly what they’re trying to articulate when they say, “It’s too danced,” or, “Too much dancing.” It’s a larger issue, too, of the desire for immediate product and short attention spans and all of that. I always think of product-based energy as trying to make art something that it’s not. And forcing it to be right when you do it the first time. With art, there’s no right. This beautiful whimsical thing that we’re so blessed to do needs time and air and wonder, and a real cradle.
CAMDEN | Soft. Softness is what you often say.
SONYA | And care and respect, and sometimes it’s not respected. I’m trying to shift that by having these conversations and saying it and naming it in the room and fighting for it more. Small, but mighty steps, I would say.
CAMDEN | I’ve been struck by something working with you on Moulin Rouge! We will go see the show somewhere, and it’s like, “Oh, why isn’t this moment working?” And you talk to the dancers in such a beautiful way, explaining the intention of the moment. The next night, the choreography, the steps, “are the same,” and yet you see something different. Because you’re responding to a physical form, I wonder if that is where one of the places that these disconnects happen. I often feel like we’re all speaking the same language and yet end up in a different category or a different tier.
SONYA | Totally. A different tier. It’s a constant wonder to me. When those moments happen in other parts of life, I always think, we need to study this and break this down. People need to know more about dancing, more behind-the-scenes understanding of what it takes to make something, and how many versions an artist goes through to find the gold that gets the back of your hairs standing up, and makes you feel like you are floating and makes you feel alive. Because that’s what I strive for— did I give these artists something to grow from and learn from? It’s really demoralizing when you don’t feel seen as the leader of the dance part.
CAMDEN | You spoke earlier about your time in Detroit with these beautiful women who made their own techniques, and I’m so curious about that. I’d love to hear more about what that experience was and maybe how you’ve carried that with you. Growing up as a theatre kid, it’s like—you know about Bob Fosse, you know about Michael Bennett, you know about Jack Cole. I know there are so many more examples. In my mind it feels like a legacy of some kind, but one that you could possibly exist in.
“With art, there’s no right. This beautiful whimsical thing that we’re so blessed to do needs time and air and wonder, and a real cradle.”
SONYA | It was overwhelming to see and so gratifying to be in spaces with these incredible women. We learned Martha Graham, of course, Lester Horton; all of those epic heroes of mine. But within that, you spent the majority of your day with these incredible artists who had their master’s in dance and dance theory and dance history, and who wanted to move the dial. I was amidst and immersed among these people who were building their building blocks and foundation, which was so overwhelmingly difficult and amazing.
I know that that’s why I have this fury and ability to stand for myself—because I learned that from them. It was important for me to find my voice. I needed to be able to home in on it, and it was such a gift to be able to do that and have them honor and celebrate that with me.
CAMDEN | Were they advocating for you to do that, or was it something that you picked up from them?
SONYA | It was a mixture. I would see them create and rebuild. They would discuss where they’re from and how this echoed in their bodies, and as they were saying it, I would say, “Oh my God, that’s how I feel when I go to the underground dance parties in Detroit after this class.” Because the underground raves and house music and techno music were really the foundation of my life growing up in Detroit. When they would say things like that, I would say, “That’s how I feel when I’m standing on top of the speaker and seeing the sea of people, or next to the DJ— that innate hype physicality comes out of my body naturally.” I always thought—because it’s what I was told—that it was weird or “other.” It was “othered” on a constant basis. My teachers at Wayne State said, “Go there. Keep going there. The pitch in your voice changes when you talk about that. Listen to your body.”
Even right now, I feel my heart because I remember that time. And nostalgia is a signal, in my opinion.
CAMDEN | It’s a physical response.
SONYA | That made me then seek that volume—and I, as you know, love volume—and a challenging of the body and momentum. It’s utilizing the bones, literally the bones and the muscles of the body and testing them out and seeing what they can do. There’s endless possibility. The endless possibility is what my teachers made me feel like, is what I took from them. That for me is a gift that I am so grateful for. I really believe anything is possible.
CAMDEN | It’s such a beautiful idea that everything can continue to be explored in any way.
SONYA | I think homing in and leaning into listening to your body and what makes joy exude out of your body, what makes excitement, what makes that dopamine rush that happens—that’s the answer. That’s a beautiful answer, and dance does that.
Camden Gonzales is a performer and choreographer based in New York City. camdengonzales.com
