Tecno|Graf铆a[s]
Dial贸gica: Niko Vicario
Permanence Architecture Knowledge
T|G: ONE OF THE THEMES DEVELOPED FOR THIS CONVERSATION IS TO ANALYZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF KNOWLEDGE AS A STRUCTURING ABSTRACTION, HOW WOULD YOU UNDERSTAND THE UNION OF THE FOLLOWING CONCEPTS: ARCHITECTURE, SPACE AND INFORMATION? NV: I THINK WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A LITERAL POINT OF VIEW THAT MIXES ARCHITECTURE AND THE CONSTRUCTION OF KNOWLEDGE, BUT I ALSO WOULD LIKE TO EMPHASIZE THE AMBIGUITY BETWEEN THE LITERAL AND THE FIGURATIVE OF THIS PERCEPTION AND WHAT THIS REPRESENTS, THE GAP BETWEEN REAL SPACES AND ARTIFICIAL SPACES. FOR EXAMPLE IF WE THINK ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT IN A CITY, YOU CAN SEE NATURE THAT’S BEEN FILTERED THROUGH VARIOUS TECHNOLOGICAL PROCESSES. IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT KNOWLEDGE ARCHITECTURES AND THEIR RELATIONSHIP TO INFORMATION AND THEORETICAL SPACES, FIRST I WOULD ASK, WHAT IS THE ATTEMPT TO MIX THESE CONCEPTS? T|G: IS AN ATTEMPT TO UNDERSTAND KNOWLEDGE AS A DISTRIBUTED AND MOLDED GEOMETRY, IF WE DEAL WITH SPACES THAT CONTAINS INFORMATION, WHO DECIDES WHAT KIND OF KNOWLEDGE IS IN IT? WHICH ARE THE FORCES THAT ARE MAKING AND MANIPULATING THESE BUILDINGS? HOW IS THAT ARCHITECT KNOWLEDGE MODIFIES THE WAY WE TRANSLATE THE DIRECT SURROUNDINGS? NV: I HAVE TWO IMMEDIATE ASSOCIATIONS THAT SHARE A COMMON SITE: KNOWLEDGE MANAGEMENT. THE FIRST IS RELATED WITH THE MEMORY PALACE, AN ANCIENT TECHNIQUE IN WHICH A MEMORY IS ORDERED INTO SPACES TO REMEMBER CERTAIN INFORMATION. THIS METHOD CONSISTS IN PICTURING A VAST BUILDING WITH MANY ROOMS IN ORDER TO RECONSTRUCT MEMORIES, MOVING THROUGH ONE ROOM TO THE NEXT AS AN IMAGINARY ARCHITECTURE, A NARRATIVE FULL OF SELECTED KNOWLEDGE. THE SECOND ASSOCIATION IS RELATED WITH INFORMATION TECHNOLOGIES, IN THIS CASE WE HAVE THE INTERNET, WHICH CONVENTIONALLY IS ESTABLISHED AS A SPACE, BUT ALSO AS A KIND OF ANTI-SPACE BECAUSE IT IS RESTRICTED TO THE RULES OF THE VIRTUAL UNDERSTANDING OF REALITY.
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AT THE SAME TIME, ALL THE DATA THAT IS GENERATED FROM PERSONAL DEVICES AND DIGITAL PLATFORMS OF COMMUNICATION IS HOUSED IN DATA CENTERS WHICH FIND THEMSELVES IN ISOLATED BUILDINGS DISTRIBUTED AROUND THE WORLD. IT’S A PHYSICAL RETURN OF THE DATA, FROM THE INTANGIBLE RE-EMBODIMENT, A PRESENCE, DATA WITH A NEW CORPOREAL ENTITY. IT'S INTERESTING HOW THE LITERAL ARCHITECTURES AND DESIGNS OF THESE SPACES ARE ALSO A SPATIAL ANALOGY, THE SPATIAL COROLLARY OF THESE SPACELESS WORLDS, THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THESE TWO TYPES OF ARCHITECTURE IS A CRUCIAL ENCOUNTER. T|G:CURRENTLY, DIFFERENT METHODOLOGIES OF TRADITIONAL ARCHITECTURAL PREVIEW HAVE FACED DIGITALIZATIONS AND NEW WAYS OF REPRESENTING PHYSICAL PLANNING WHERE IT IS ECHOING ENCOUNTERS BETWEEN SPECULATION AND CONSTITUTION TO A BEFORE-PRESENCE, HOW TECHNOLOGY IN THESE PROCESSES? NV: I SEE IT FROM A PEDAGOGICAL POINT OF VIEW, I’VE NOTICED THAT IN A LOT OF SCHOOLS THERE’S AN ONGOING CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW ARCHITECTURE IS TAUGHT AND DESIGNED. FOR MOST STUDENTS, ARCHITECTURAL DESIGN IS NOW PLANNED AND CONCEPTUALIZED DIGITALLY; IN THAT ORDER WE CAN CONTRAST THE ROLE OF ANALOG FORMATS AND ARCHITECTONIC PROJECTION SYSTEMS, WHICH PERHAPS WOULD BE MORE SPONTANEOUS DUE TO THEIR ACTUAL VISIBLE AND MANIPULATIVE ATTRIBUTES, AGAINST THE EMERGENCE OF CODED CONSTRUCTIONS AND TECHNOLOGICAL RELATIONS, COMPUTED LEVELS OF ABSTRACTION THAT GO INTO BUILDING A REAL STRUCTURE BASED ON AN IMAGINARY AND SPECULAR PROTOTYPE. IS IMPORTANT TO QUESTION THE ORIGIN AND PURPOSES OF TECHNOLOGY AND TECHNOLOGICAL TOOLS, WHAT CONSTITUTES THEM, IN WHICH TERMS THEY ARE FUNCTIONING. THESE APPROACHES BECOME A WAY TO AVOID ALIENATING ATTITUDES IN ACADEMIC AREAS WHERE TECHNOLOGY IS EMPHASIZED ALMOST AS A SEPARATION BETWEEN HUMANS AND NATURE.
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T|G: YOUR CURATORIAL WORK CONTAINS REFERENCES THAT DEAL WITH THE PREPONDERANCE OF HISTORY, SPACE AND THE MODERN CORPOREALITY AS . IF WE THINK ABOUT HISTORY AS A VALIDATION DEVICE, HOW THIS DEVICE BECOMEAN ELEMENT TO STUDY AND STRUCTURE THESE CULTURAL EXPLORATIONS? NV: I GUESS THAT THE MOST STANDARD POINT OF VIEW ON THE LABOR OF CURATING HISTORICAL MATERIAL WOULD BE THE OPPOSITION OLD THINGS VERSUS NEW THINGS, CONTEMPORARY ART VERSUS OLDER ART, THIS IS THE MOST LITERAL ANGLE IN THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN HISTORY AND EXHIBITIONS. WHAT’S BEEN INTERESTING IN THE PROJECTS THAT I’VE DONE IS TO THINK ABOUT THE ARTWORK ITSELF AND THE ARTIST COLLABORATING IN A PROCESS OF ANALYZING HISTORY, TO UNDERSTAND THIS POINT MAYBE THE USE OF ARCHAEOLOGY AS A DEFINING ELEMENT IS HELPFUL, LIKE IN FOUCAULT’S THE ARCHAEOLOGY OF KNOWLEDGE. WHAT DOES IT MEANS FOR AN ARTIST TO THINK ABOUT FORMS AND IMAGES AS COMPONENTS THAT DISSECT HISTORY? WHAT’S THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE FORM OR THE MATERIAL AND ITS HISTORICAL TIME? I’M ATTRACTED TO ART AND ARTISTS WHO ARE PUTTING PRESSURE ON THOSE QUESTIONS. THERE'S A LOT OF TALK RECENTLY ABOUT THE STATUS OF THE CONTEMPORARY, THE DEFINITION OF CONTEMPORARY AND ART’S RELATIONSHIP TO TIME, THIS SYMPTOM SEEMS TO BE MOTIVATED BY ART HISTORIANS WHO ARE VERY ANXIOUS ABOUT THE CAPABILITIES OF TELLING THE HISTORY OF THE PRESENT AND THE TANGIBLE CONNECTIONS OF ART HISTORY AND THE CONTEMPORARY MOMENT. MANY OF THESE NOTIONS ARE EVIDENCED BY THE FACT THAT MOST PEOPLE WHO GO TO STUDY ART HISTORY IN ACADEMIC CIRCLES WANT TO WORK ON ART MADE IN THE LAST 40 YEARS, FEWER PEOPLE WANT TO STUDY ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS, THIS IS AN INTERESTING ANTI-HISTORICAL IMPULSE THAT CONFRONTS ART HISTORY.
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T|G: CURRENTLY THE DISCIPLINARY POLICIES OF INSTITUTIONAL EXHIBITION HAVE BEEN RENOVATED TO BRING CURATORIAL PROJECTS TO OTHER AND LIMITS. WHAT WOULD BE THE PURPOSE OF MIGRATING TO OTHER PLATFORMS AND STRATEGIES OF LEGITIMATION? NV: NOW IN MANY MUSEUMS THERE'S AN INTENTION TO MAKE THE CURATORIAL PROCESS LESS SECRETIVE AND MORE OPEN TO THE PUBLIC, IN CERTAIN WAYS, INSTITUTIONS TRY TO EXTERIORIZE THE FORMAT THAT AN EXHIBITION TAKES AND MAKE OTHER ROOM FOR EXPERIMENTATION. THERE ARE CURATORIAL PROJECTS THAT USE DIFFERENT MODALITIES THAT CHALLENGE THE PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS OF THE INSTITUTION. IN SOME OF THESE PROJECTS, ARTISTS ARE INTRODUCED TO CONTRIBUTE IN WEBSITE LOGICS AS CURATORS ON THE INTERNET, TO ADD LINKS IN A DEFINED SELECTION OR CONCEPT; ONE PROJECT CREATES A CONSTELLATION OF MINI-PROJECTS THAT SHIFT AND DISAPPEAR WITHOUT NOTICE. THESE PROJECTS ARE PLAYING WITH THE DIFFICULTIES OF PERMANENCE AND THE VALUE OF ARBITRARY SEQUENCES OF DATA, THEY’RE ALSO PRODUCING AN INSTANT INTEREST, SO USERS CAN CHECK THE CONTENT BEFORE IT EXPIRES. ONLINE EXPIRATION IS AN ANALOGY OF AN ORGANIC BODY, INFORMATION DOESN’T HAVE TO LAST FOREVER, MOST EXHIBITIONS DON’T LAST FOREVER EITHER, THE INTERNET HAS THIS PARTICULAR RELATIONSHIP WITH PERMANENCE AND TOTALITY AND A CONSTANT PLAY WITH THE IDEA OF OBSOLESCENCE. T|G: YOU HAVE WORKED WITH ISTITUTIONS AND CURATORS IN INITIATIVES THE PUBLIC SPACE AND ITS PECULIARITIES AT DIFFERENT LEVELS OF COMPLEXITY. IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, WHAT PROJECTS YOU CONSIDER INTERESTING INVOLVING CULTURAL ENCOUNTERS AS THE MAIN TRIGGER IN THE PRODUCTION OF KNOWLEDGE? NV: I’VE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO WORK ON PROJECTS AND WITH PEOPLE THAT I THINK HAVE MADE INTERESTING PROPOSALS IN THIS WAY. IN 2003, WHILE I WAS STUDYING IN ITALY, MY ADVISOR AT THAT TIME, MOLLY NESBIT, CO-CURATED AN EXHIBITION WITH HANS ULRICH OBRIST AND 4
AND RIRKRIT TIRAVANIJA CALLED UTOPIA STATION, THE WORKS INCLUDED IN THIS EXHIBITION WERE COMMISSIONED FOR THE OCCASION, THIS WAS A VERY EXCITING AND REVELATORY EXHIBITION, IT WAS THE FIRST TIME I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO WITNESS THIS KIND OF CURATORIAL APPROACH.. THE SECOND EXPERIENCE WOULD BE WHEN I MET MARIA LIND (WHO WAS THE DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER OF CURATORIAL STUDIES PROGRAM THAT I WENT TO AT BARD COLLEGE IN NEW YORK), WITH HER I LEARNED MORE ABOUT THE CHALLENGES OF CURATORIAL PRACTICES, PARTICULARLY IN HER COLLABORATIONS WITH LIAM GILLICK (WHO HAD ALSO HELPED DESIGN THE INSTALLATION OF UTOPIA STATION). I DID A FELLOWSHIP WITH HER WHILE SHE WAS WORKING ON A RESEARCH PROJECT CALLED THE GREENROOM WHERE SHE INVITED A TEAM OF ARTISTS WHO WORKED IN THE FIELDS OF DOCUMENTARY, PHOTOJOURNALISM AND RELATED TOPICS, NURTURED AND COMPLEMENTED WITH CLASSES THAT WERE BEING TAUGHT AT THE COLLEGE, EXHIBITIONS, AND LECTURE SERIES, THERE WAS A DISPERSED APPROACH TO THIS RESEARCH PROJECT THAT MUTATED INTO VARIOUS FORMS, AS EXHIBITIONS AND AS KNOWLEDGE PRODUCTION. THESE PROJECTS WERE FOOD FOR THOUGHT ABOUT: -THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN WHAT CAN BE THOUGHT AND DESIGNED IN COLLABORATIVE EFFORTS BY ARTISTS AND CURATORS. -THE TENSION AND THE WAYS TO CONFRONT WHAT IS PUBLIC SPACE AND WHO IS INVOLVED IN BUILDING IT. -WHO ARE THE VISITORS OF THOSE EXHIBITIONS?, WHAT KIND OF COMMUNITIES DO THEY FORM? -HOW INFORMATION STRUCTURES LIKE THE INTERNET AND THE PRACTICES OF DISCUSSION IN IT PROVIDE CONNECTIONS AND BREAK AWAY FROM OLDER FORMS OF CULTURAL AND PUBLIC GATHERING. I CONSIDER AN IMPORTANT QUESTION : ARE MUSEUMS REALLY PUBLIC SPACES? T|G: MOMENTS AGO YOU MENTIONED THE ROLE OF DIGITAL CONCEPTUALIZATION OF LEARNING THROUGH PROJECTIONS AND TECHNOLOGICAL DEVICES AS ONE OF THE RADICAL CHANGES IN THE PEDAGOGICAL DIREC 5
TION OF ARCHITECTURE, HOW PURPOSES AND CONSEQUENCES OF THE APPLICATION OF THESE TECHNOLOGICAL DEVICES BE INTERPRETED IN PEDAGOGY AND ART PRODUCTION? NV: IT’S BEEN INTERESTING TO THINK ABOUT THE PROCESS OF CULTURAL EDUCATION THROUGH IMAGE REPRODUCTIONS, WHEN I’M LOOKING AT OLDER MATERIAL I CAN’T AVOID THINKING ABOUT HOW ARTISTS, CURATORS AND PEOPLE FROM DIVERSE BACKGROUNDS LEARN AND THEORIZE ABOUT ART AND ITS IMAGES. DID THEY LEARN BY SEEING THE ACTUAL OBJECT? A COPY SHOWN IN A CERTAIN SPACE? OR DID THEY LEARN ABOUT IT THROUGH MAGAZINES AND BOOK REPRODUCTIONS? IT’S QUESTIONABLE TO SAY THAT HAVING AN AUTHENTIC EXPERIENCE OF A PIECE OF ART IS PURELY BASED IN A PHYSICAL INTERACTION, IT SEEMS A LITTLE CONDESCENDING TO ME. I’VE HEARD CONVERSATIONS OF, FOR EXAMPLE, THE YOUNG GENERATION OF CONTEMPORARY ARTISTS IN CHINA THAT LEARNED ABOUT ART FROM THE INTERNET. IS IT NECESSARY THAT CONTEMPORARY ARTISTS NEED TO KNOW ALL ABOUT TRADITIONAL ART HISTORY? T|G: CONSIDERING THE DIRECT INFLUENCE OF INFORMATION TECHNOLOGIES IN THE STORAGE AND GENERATION OF KNOWLEDGE, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE ESTABLISHMENT OF COMMUNICATION NETWORKS AND SOCIAL CHANGES THAT UNDERLIE ORGANIZATION BLOCKS UNDERSTOOD AS A SOCIAL BODY, PUBLIC SPACE OR CITIZENSHIP? NV: DEFINITELY, SOCIAL-NETWORK TECHNOLOGIES ARE DEFINING OUR TIME PERIOD, IN THE LAST DECADE THE INTERNET HAS BEEN SEEN AS AN IMPORTANT KEY TO DEMOCRATIC AND POLITICAL DECISIONS, AS A SOCIAL EXTENSION BUT ALSO AS AN ELEMENT TO DISPLAY SOME CONTROL OVER THE CONSEQUENCES OF EXERCISING CITIZENSHIP. THE INTERNET IS A POWERFUL TOOL WITH THE POTENTIAL OF BOTH REPRESSION AND LIBERATION; IT PLAYS AN IMPORTANT ROLE IN DEMONSTRATIONS AROUND THE WORLD… THE OCCUPY MOVEMENT, MANIFESTATIONS IN ISTANBUL AND CAIRO. THERE IS ALSO A TENSION BETWEEN THE VIRTUAL SPACE OF SOCIAL NETWORKS AND THE PHYSICAL SIDE OF PUBLIC SPACE, THE USE OF THESE TECHNOLOGIES IS A CONSTANT EXPERIMENT WITH THE POLITICAL POTENTIALS OF DIGITAL ENGAGEMENT.
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T|G: WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ABOUT THE POLITICAL AND SOCIAL FACTORS THAT ARE TRADED IN EXHIBITION SPACES IN WESTERN SOCIETIES? DO YOU THINK THAT THE REACHES PURSUED IN OFFICIAL CULTURAL STRUCTURES REMAIN CO OPTED BY ACTS OF CENSORSHIP, LIMITATION AND LOW COORDINATION TOWARDS THE VIEWER? NV: THE RHETORICAL QUESTION I WOULD ASK WOULD BE: WHAT SECTIONS OF SOCIO-ECONOMIC CLASSES SEE EXHIBITIONS? I THINK THAT REALLY VARIES FROM COUNTRY TO COUNTRY, THE WELL-KNOWN AND FAMOUS MUSEUMS ARE ALMOST A TOURIST EXPERIENCE. MAYBE MOST CONVENTIONAL QUESTIONS OF CENSORSHIP THAT COME FROM THESE PLACES BRING UP THE ETHICS OF WHAT ARE THE BOUNDARIES OF SOCIAL ACCEPTABILITY, IN THE US IT SEEMS LIKE THAT USUALLY COMES UP AROUND SEXUALITY AND RELIGION, WHICH I DON’T USUALLY FIND TO BE THE MOST INTERESTING OR PROVOCATIVE CATEGORIES. I CERTAINTY BELIEVE IN THE POTENTIAL OF EXHIBITIONS. RATHER THAN DISMISSING THESE INSTITUTIONS AS POWERLESS ENTITIES, WE SHOULD CONSIDER HOW WE ARE GIVING THEM POWER. T|G: WHEN CONSIDERING THE MOTIFS IN MODERNISM: OFF AND ON THE GRID (2008), ONE SEES THE DEVELOPMENT OF A CRITICAL EXERCISE REGARDING THE CONTINUITY AND PERMANENCE OF AESTHETIC, SOCIAL AND HISTORICAL VALUES INHERITED FROM MODERNITY. WHY YOU DECIDED TO ANALIZE DIFFERENT TEMPORALITIES IN THIS PROJECT? NV: MODERNISM: OFF AND ON THE GRID WAS A CRITICAL ENCOUNTER OF ARTISTS WORKING BETWEEN THE 70’S AND THE FIRST YEARS OF 21ST CENTURY, IN A WAY THE EXHIBITION ENGAGED A PROCESS OF RECONSTRUCTION AND DECONSTRUCTION OF THE MODERN PAST FROM THE PERSPECTIVES OF ARCHITECTURE, ART AND DESIGN; FOR EXAMPLE MARTIN BECK, AN ARTIST WHO LIVES IN VIENNA AND NEW YORK, INVESTIGATES HISTORICAL CASES AND THEN HE REPRESENTS OR RECONSTRUCTS THEM, IN HIS WORK HE BOTH RECONSTRUCTS AND QUESTIONS A MODERNIST DESIGN FOR AN EXHIBITION STRUCTURE, IN THIS CASE THERE WAS A META-RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN ALLEGORIES, AN ANALOGY FOR THE LABOR OF THE ARTIST WHO IS ALSO ACTING IN SOME WAY AS A CURATOR OF PRODUCTS OF THE 20TH CENTURY.
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MAYBE IN THE EXERCISE OF ANALYZING AN OBJECT AS A RESULT OF CERTAIN HISTORICAL LAYERS AND MOMENTS WE CAN ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WE’RE LIVING IN A WORLD THAT IS PRODUCED BY THE PAST. T|G: THE SIGNALS OPENED IN YOUR PROJECTS COINCIDE AT SPECIFIC POINTS, IN LIVING MODERN (CURATOR: LAURA BARLOW) FOR EXAMPLE, THERE ARE IDEAS BASED ON REMINISCENCES AND EMBLEMS THAT DISTINGUISHED IDEOLOGICAL BLOCKS DERIVED FROM MODERNITY, HOW WAS THIS APPROACH UNDERSTOOD TO BE BUILT UNDER A NARRATIVE PERSPECTIVE?, WHY INSIST IN THE IDEOLOGICAL BASIS OF MODERNITY TO GENERATE DISCOURSES? NV: IN THE DESIGNING OF SOCIETY, WHO IS THE INDIVIDUAL AND WHO IS THE PUBLIC DESIGNED FOR MODERNITY? THERE ARE DISCOURSES ABOUT THIS, THE IDEA THAT THE PUBLIC IS ALWAYS DEFICIENT, A PUBLIC LACKING CULTURE THAT NEEDS TO BE EDUCATED. IF PEOPLE WERE READY FOR MODERNITY, THEN WE WOULDN’T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING, IT’S OVER, NO NEED FOR DESIGN, NO NEED FOR ARCHITECTURE, NO MORE EGOTISTICAL SIDES OF MODERNISM; THE PRESCRIPTIVE SIDE OF MODERNISM IS THAT WE NEED TO PRODUCE PEOPLE WHO ARE WORTHY OF OUR SYSTEM, IN THAT WAY I THINK THAT NOBODY LIVES UP TO THAT, NOBODY IS THAT PERFECT LE CORBUSIER MAN (MODULOR). I DON’T WANT TO SPEAK FOR OTHER PEOPLE BUT IT SEEMS TO BE FELT MORE ACUTELY OUTSIDE OF WESTERN EUROPE AND THE US, IN THE ANXIETY THAT IT WAS A DREAM NEVER ACCOMPLISHED, IT SEEMS THAT THE IDEA IS THAT IT IS STILL NECESSARY TO CONFORM TO THE IDEAL OF THE EUROPEAN CITIZEN. I THINK THAT’S ALSO VALUABLE TO QUESTION. BRUNO LATOUR SAYS THAT WE NEVER BEEN MODERN, I THINK THAT’S TRUE. WHEN PEOPLE SAYS, “WE’RE NOT MODERN ENOUGH”, MAYBE IT’S VALUABLE NOT TO BELIEVE IN THE TOTALIZING UTOPIA, TO ALWAYS SEE THE FAILURE, THE IMPOSSIBILITY, THE EXCEPTIONS IN THESE PROCESSES.
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EDITING AND TRANSLATING: NIKO VICARIO + HOÇÂ COVÉ-MBEDE DESIGN : HOÇÂ COVÉ-MBEDE