10 minute read
INTERVIEW / Rwanda’s President Paul Kagame
INTERVIEW Paul Kagame
Advertisement
In France for President Macron’s Africa summit, Rwanda’s president had much to say about the two recent reports on the genocide, relations with his neighbours and criticism of his regime
Interview by FRANÇOIS SOUDAN and ROMAIN GRAS
T
“This time, I’m staying in a Parisian hotel without the risk of the police knocking on my door!” It was with a smile and a reminder about a 30-year-old event that President Paul Kagame greeted Jeune Afrique in a lounge of the Peninsula Hotel. He was in Paris as one of the VIP guests atPresident Emmanuel Macron’s summit on African economies.
The occasion he was referring to took place in September 1991. After visiting the French foreign ministry on the Quai d’Orsay, the man who was then the leader of a rebel front fighting against the government in Kigali was arrested at dawn in his hotel room, held at gunpoint and taken to an unknown location, where he was interrogated for 24 hours before being released.
IfKagame has notforgotten thosemoments, or the role played by the French government before, during and after the Rwandan genocide, he believes in the power of relationships and of moving on. And so it was with more pragmatism than sentiment that, in May 2021, he willingly shared the stage with his new friend, France’s Emmanuel Macron, for whom he is nothing short of a “role model” for the African continent.
Something of an elder statesman now, the 63-year-old is still courts controversy, at home and abroad. With journalists he can be direct or he can be allusive – it all depends. But he doesn’t duck the questions. [Editor’snote: This interviewwasconducted on 18 May in Paris andwascompletedbytelephone two days later from Kigali. It has been lightly edited for clarity.]
The Muse Report [commissioned by Rwanda] and the Duclert Commission report [commissioned by France] both conclude that France bears ‘heavy’ responsibility for Rwanda’s genocide, but dismiss the accusation of complicity. Has the truth finally been told and have all responsibilities been established? PAUL KAGAME: These two reports were very important for relations between our two countries. But there are different aspects. First of all, I don’t know what the phrase ‘all responsibilities established’ means to you. It’s not that easy to sweep everything away. Each responsibility is critical. Second, the two reports do not reach the same conclusion. Ours does not rule out complicity. It merely raises questions that, if pursued, would lead to that conclusion.
I stand by what was established very clearly in these tworeports, namely the notion of heavy responsibility. Whether there was complicity or not we leave to individual interpretation.
PA UL KAGAME FLICKR
Meeting with the Duclert Commission in May 2021
I think that, despite slight differences in their conclusions, these reports lay a solid foundation for building a better relationship between our two countries. Today, we have done 85 to 90% of the work to normalise things, and I don’t think we need to waste time on the other 10 or 15%. We will build on what we have accomplished and move on.
You have dealt with five French presidents. Your relations with these counterparts have had their ups and downs. Does the election of Emmanuel Macron mark a definitive turning point?
It’s a crucial turning point.Tobe quite honest, we had constructive exchanges with Nicolas Sarkozy. I remember that we met in New York when he was half way through his mandate. It was the first time we talked. We looked each other in the eye and talked about the difficult relationship between our two countries, about this very complicated history. He then came to Kigali, in February 2010, and we visited the Genocide Memorial together. This was a small opening in the relationship between France and Rwanda, in which he played an important role.
Unfortunately, the rapprochement he began was never completed. When Emmanuel Macron was elected, he set out a very clear path to advance the relationship between Rwanda and France. This is what made it possible to set up the Duclert Commission. It also opens the way for further rapprochement.
It takes courage to start this kind of process. Courageous people are not only found on the battlefield. They are also those who make decisions that go against what others expect of them – decisions that expose them. Emmanuel Macron had that courage.
Many major media outlets, many NGOs and, more recently, the UN Human Rights Council have denounced the lack of freedoms in Rwanda. How do you respond to these claims?
What do you want me to say? It is like a broken record. Rwanda has been hearing this for 27 years. Sometimes I think it’s because these people are too lazy to see the reality of things on the ground; either that, or it’s the effect of some form of guilt. Because what happened in Rwanda during the genocide did not just involve Rwandans.
A significant number of players, including rich and powerful countries, had a role during this period, but they refuse to be held responsible. They therefore have to reverse the responsibility by accusing the Rwandan authorities of being the source of Rwanda’s
problems. This is aformofracism and contempt that began during the genocide, when part of the population was systematically murdered.
But how do you explain the reactions that target you personally, often in a passionate way?
It’s true that we are attacked on a daily basis, whether it is me or theRwandanPatrioticFront (RPF). At the same time, you have people in France, in Great Britain, in Belgium, some of whom are murderers who killed in 1994, during the genocide. In most cases, we have difficulty bringing them to justice. Whether they are found innocent or guilty is a matter for the courts, but these countries do not even try them, they protect them. Some people would even like to see these people come back to power in Rwanda to run the country. It’s cynical, but we live with it.
At the beginning of the year, British journalist Michela Wrong published Do Not Disturb, a book that is very critical of the RPF and your regime. Have you read it?
I don’t need to read this nonsense. But I want people to read it and make up their own minds. The purpose of this book is solely to destroy what we have built. But the truth is getting harder and harder to distort. They may attack us from all sides, but they still see a country emerging from destruction. These are undeniable facts.
The case of the oppositionist Paul Rusesabagina, who was arrested in August 2020 and is on trial in Kigali, has caused strong reactions from the international community. How do you respond to those who say he was kidnapped?
There are two distinct aspects to this case. The first is the process that brought Rusesabagina to Kigali. The second is whether Rusesabagina is guilty or not. We must stop mixing the two. If it were established that he was arrested illegally, then it would be possible to argue this point, to make it a separate procedure and to debate it. But if, on the other hand, someone tells you that this same Rusesabagina has been a member of a terrorist group attacking Rwanda for several years, and that this is supported by evidence being presented in a court of law right now, this cannot be ignored.
After five years of tension, relations with Burundi seem to be normalising. What has allowed this new approach?
Perhaps the change of government played a role. Or perhaps, with time, they have started asking the right questions. Why continue on this path? Why continue to fuel these tensions when a calmer relationship would benefit us more than a conflict?
Does this mean that you no longer see Burundi as a potential threat?
No, that is not what I mean. When a neighbour is a source of tension for your country, you try to deal with that problem, but also with what is behind it. If someone supports one of my enemies, then that means I have two problems to deal with. The one who crosses the border to attack me and the one who supports him in the shadows.
The Rwandan first family, including Ivan (3rd left) and Ange (3rd right)
The situation with Uganda, on the other hand, is not improving, despite a promising start to the mediation.
UL KAGAME FLICKR PA
Have you lost confidence in President Yoweri Museveni?
This story is not just about trust between Museveni and me. It has been going on for maybe more than 20 years. I’m never very comfortable talking about this, but I’ll sum it up this way: for us, it’s not acceptable to be anyone’s subordinate. We do not accept to be controlled or used. If you can read between the lines, you can understand what I mean. In this relationship, there can’t be a big brother telling the other ‘do this’ or ‘do that’. We have a country to run. If a neighbour wants to attack our sovereignty, to destabilise us with armed groups, we cannot accept it.
Your relationship with [DRC president] Félix Tshisekedi is undeniably better than the one you had with Joseph Kabila. Does it rest on a more solid foundation?
I don’t think it would be hard to do better than at the time of the previous Congolese administration. We did everything we could to improve things with Kabila, but it never
KING OF KIGALI? 23 October 1957
Born in Tambwe, Rwanda
1994 Became de facto leader of the country after the Rwandan Genocide
22 April 2000
Became President of Rwanda
2015
Constitutional referendum creates the possibilty for Kagame to stay in power until 2034
28 January 2018
Took up the rotating chair of the African Union Commission and launched a reform programme worked. It worked for a few days or a few weeks, and then, after a month or two, we had problems again. It has been like this for years.
Now there is hope that things will improve on the ground. If we listen to each other, especially as neighbours with a common history, good and bad at the same time, it allows us to better protect each other on both sides. That’s what is happening today.
Nobel Peace Prize winner Denis Mukwege is campaigning for the creation of an international criminal tribunal on crimes committed in the DRC, based on the UN’s ‘Mapping Report’. Why are you opposed to this approach?
Idon’t know ifyou havestudiedthe Mapping Report. This report was created to give credibility to the idea of double genocide – a theory that transforms victims into executioners. A report like this should have shown the perpetration of crimes committed by parties other than Rwanda. The people behind this are funding Mukwege. It’s part of this new NGO narrative around these events. It doesn’t take away from the good things that Dr. Mukwege has done, treating women who were raped.
A year ago, your son Ivan was appointed to the board of directors of the Rwanda Development Board (RDB). Your daughter, Ange, is involved in philanthropy and serves as an informal adviser in the government. Aren’t you afraid of being accused of nepotism?
If that were the case, my son would be RDB president or a minister. My daughter is married and lives in Rwanda. She decided it would be easier to work with me than to get a job somewhere where she would be treated differently because she is the president’s daughter. Here, she’s on a team of nine people that she doesn’t manage; she just gets involved in the areas that are hers, in a technical capacity. She has no authority over this group.
It’s not an easy situation to deal with, I agree. If I involve my children too much, I’ll be accused of giving them privileges. If do the opposite, that would be denying them their rights as Rwandan citizens. It is a dilemma, so we are looking for something in between. But you won’t hear about the kind of excesses that make headlines in other countries. Rwanda is not a monarchy.
