1 minute read
John Brennan The former CIA director defends spycraft
DECODING
WITH THREE DECADES OF EXPERIENCE IN
Washington, John Brennan makes the case for the importance of the work done by the nation’s intelligence officials. From the December 3, 2020, online program “John Brennan: Inside the CIA and the Fight for Intelligence.” Part of our Good Lit series, underwritten by the Bernard Osher Foundation. JOHN BRENNAN, Former Director, CIA; Author, Undaunted: My Fight Against America’s Enemies, at Home and Abroad In Conversation with ELLEN NAKASHIMA, National Security Reporter, The Washington Post
THE CIA
ELLEN NAKASHIMA: With a total of 29 years at the CIA and the White House, Mr. Brennan has spent the bulk of his career in public service. From an analyst on near Eastern and South Asian issues to serving as Director [of Central Intelligence] George Tenet’s chief of staff, to heading the National Counterterrorism Center, and ultimately to working directly with President Barack Obama as homeland security advisor and then his CIA director, John Brennan has rare breadth and depth of experience. His book, Undaunted, offers a rich, personal perspective on the world of intelligence and national security and on Washington’s chaotic political environment. So thank you, John, for joining us. Let’s start with your title, Undaunted. What’s the significance behind it? What prompted you to write the memoir you said you never intended to write? JOHN BRENNAN: Undaunted was my memoir, my first and so far only book that I wrote. I decided to put down my experiences, my recollections about my 33-plus years in government, as a way to lift the shroud a bit off of the intelligence and national security environment, which is filled with mystique to a lot of people.
But also, and I think more important, [I wrote it] to encourage young Americans to seriously consider a career in public service, whether it be in the intelligence community or the diplomatic corps or law enforcement. This is a great, wonderful country of ours. I’d like to think that most Americans want to give back to this country and to do what they can to help ensure that we remain free and safe and prosperous and do what they can to protect their fellow citizens.
The title, Undaunted, it’s a combination of things. I reference in the memoir times when there were strong headwinds blowing toward me. That I tried to persevere. And I guess most recently over the last four years when I have been a bit outspoken, and despite the efforts of some to try to stifle my voice, I like to think I have remained undaunted.
THE CIA
But also during the course of my nation- his pursuit of personal political agendas, as CIA has been a target of criticism from all al security career, there were setbacks and well as other personal agendas, whether it be quarters. So it’s not as though it’s that unusuchallenges that I faced. But I really believe financial or otherwise, I just felt was a real al. It’s unusual that a sitting president of the strongly in the national security mission aberration and disgraceful, quite frankly. United States of America would do someand the intelligence mission. Despite some So I felt this obligation to speak out, as I thing like that. That’s what’s I think very concerns I had about some of the things have. I’m not the only person to do that with dismaying, disappointing to so many. But that maybe the United States was involved a national security background. Jim Clapper, I think morale among CIA officers remains in over the course of its history, as well as Mike Hayden, some very respected former strong, even in these difficult times, because during my tenure, I remained undaunted in military officers as well—Admiral [William] they know the importance of their work. terms of being committed and dedicated to McRaven and others. So I think it’s the ab- They know what they do is critically imthose missions normality of what we are experiencing these portant to our national security. I am conNAKASHIMA: That spirit really does come days that have led me and other people to cerned though that the morale of family through in your book and in what you say. adopt this rather public profile of criticism. members, the ones who have to support But as you mentioned, you have been quite I’m not a partisan. It’s really ironic, too, their loved ones who deploy overseas quickoutspoken, fairly untraditional for a for- because I think people now think that I’m ly, or spend long, long days and nights in the mer senior intelligence community leader. this anti-Trumper and this Democratic foil, office, as well as young Americans who may You have called the current administration or the foil for the Democratic Party, what- have been interested in pursuing a career at a kakistocracy, meaning governed by the ever. When I was the director of CIA under CIA and because of the disparaging remarks least competent, which has caused a surge in President Obama, most of those in Congress of the commander in chief about intelligence online searches for that term, I guess. You’ve who were calling for my firing or resignation they just said, “Well, why should I do that? called Trump a disgraced demagogue who were on the Democratic side of the aisle. So The work is not appreciated or recognized or belongs in the dustbin of his- as I think I referenced in the [considered] useful.” tory. Do you think, in a sense, “I’m not a partimemoir, I’m an equal opportunity offender. So I do believe that the Biden administration is going to send strong signals, speaking out so strongly at san. Under Pres- I tend to speak my mind both inside of the intelligence community times might undermine the perception of the intelligence ident Obama, and speak as forthrightly as I can. Maybe I’m not as politand more broadly, that intelligence is critically important to this country’s national community as an apolitical, most of those in ically sensitive or attuned as security, and the intelligence professionals above-the-fray institution? BRENNAN: Well, I know Congress who some people would like me to be. But if I irritate some deserve our praise, our admiration and our appreciation. So it’s going to be a new day that a lot of people have criticized my outspokenness, because they believe that once were calling for my firing or resbecause of my outspokenness, well, so be it. NAKASHIMA: President for them. NAKASHIMA: I want to ask you one more question before we move to audia CIA director, always a CIA director. But I have been a ignation were on Trump’s attacks on the intelligence community have ence questions. This is something you feel very passionately about, which is the need private citizen since January the Democratic among other things lowered for diversity in the ranks of the intelligence 20 of 2017. And for many years, I worked hard to pro- side of the aisle. morale in the agencies. How big a job will President-elect community. You walked the halls of the CIA with your rainbow lanyard in support tect the right of freedom of I’m an equal Biden and his new DNI of the LGBTQ community. Why is that so speech of American citizens. So maybe now I’m reaping opportunity [director of national intelligence] Avril Haines—a important? Why is diversity so important in the intelligence world and what can the next the benefits of the investment offender.” former deputy of yours—if administration do to improve on it? that I made in that. she is confirmed, how big a BRENNAN: I can think of no other in-
I don’t enjoy speaking out so public- job will they have in repairing the damage stitutions or profession that really is so dely and stridently and critically as I have of done internally and the damage to the rela- pendent on diversity in order to achieve an incumbent in the Oval Office. I served tionship between the White House and the mission success than is the CIA. The CIA is six presidents, three Democrats and three community? supposed to be this country’s eyes and ears Republicans. And while I didn’t agree with BRENNAN: I know that there is a deep around the globe, all of those countries, all all of their policies and had some vigorous disappointment inside of CIA that Donald of those cultures and societies and ethnicities disagreements with some of them about it, Trump has denigrated and disparaged the and languages and religions. The more that I respected and admired all of them. I felt professionals in the intelligence community, we can tap into the melting pot that exists that they all were trying to do their level best as well as their work. And a greater disap- here in the United States that is derived from to advance the interests of the United States pointment that he is not using the intelli- all of those locations and societies and places and not their own. gence to keep America safe. That said, I have around the world, the better able we are to
It’s different with Donald Trump. I sensed tremendous respect and admiration for CIA operate overseas. early on that he was going to not fulfill the officers who continue to do their job to the At one point, I was pretty good in Araobligations and responsibilities of the office best of their ability, despite the challenges, bic. If I would wander down, which I did, of the presidency. His dishonesty, his de- despite the criticisms that they have faced among the tribes in Southwestern Saudi ceit, his demagoguery, his lack of integrity, over the years. Arabia, near the border with Yemen, as good
as my Arabic might be, I still didn’t look like Washington Post journalist Ellen Nakashima interviews former CIA Director a local. I still didn’t understand the culture John Brennan for The Commonwealth Club. the way I needed to. So again, I think from a business case, you can make an exceptionally strong case for CIA officers to be that diverse effort of building upon the very good work BRENNAN: The only person who has been reflection of the United States, as well as of that my predecessors did. I’m not taking nominated at this point is Avril Haines. And the world. But also it’s the right thing to do. credit for this. These are things that are done I can’t say enough good things about her
And there are some personal experienc- over time. And just like democratization in intellect, about her commitment, her work es of my own that really motivated me to the Middle East, diversity and inclusion is ethic, all of it. Joe Biden is somebody who take this very seriously. There were times something that takes time and requires a sus- understands intelligence and respects it and growing up in New Jer- tained effort over time, espe- values it, depends on it. So I know that it’s sey when I didn’t speak out “Just like democ- cially from leadership. going to have a very, very important place in when I should have, when I heard negative, pejorative ratization in the NAKASHIMA: And you expect President Biden’s team the Biden administration. The challenges that they face are going to comments about others. I Middle East, to continue that effort? be many, as the Biden administration tries to was part of that group that snickered, whatever. But also diversity and BRENNAN: Yes. First of all, if you look at the composiimplement its policy vision across the world to ensure that they’re able to provide the polwhen I was in CIA, I saw the real struggle and pain inclusion is sometion of it, it is a reflection of diversity. I know my former icymakers—Tony Blinken as the secretary of state, Jake Sullivan as the national security that some of my fellow CIA thing that takes deputy at CIA, Avril Haines, advisor—the insights, the analysis, the intelofficers were going through when they were hiding their time and requires who has been nominated to be the director of national inligence that they need in order to make wise decisions about how we’re going to reassert sexual orientation, because a sustained effort, telligence, she is a very, very the U.S. leadership role on the world stage. it would’ve spelled a disaster and basically an end to their . . . especially strong advocate of diversity and inclusion, and others The challenge in the intelligence community leadership is that there are so many career if they were exposed. from leadership.” with whom I have worked things that the United States is involved in
So I just felt a personal as previously and who are part around the world, [from countering] terrorwell as an institutional obligation to ensure of the Biden team feel very strongly about ism, to proliferation, to big power relationthat people of all colors, religions, sexual it. So it’s not going to be lip service. They’re ships—they have to deal with all these things orientations, ethnic, linguistic, whatever going to walk the talk. I think you’re going simultaneously, and they have to allocate background, see the CIA as a place of rich to see some real positive movement on this resources so that they’re going to be able to opportunity, where everybody can advance front. give the appropriate attention to all of these based on merit, and that there’s going to be NAKASHIMA: In fact, one of the questions different areas. no inhibition or no obstacle to advancement we’re getting from the audience is, What do NAKASHIMA: Yes. But in reality, they can’t because of who somebody is. you think about President-elect Biden’s in- give exactly equal amounts to each relation-
I was very pleased that along with senior telligence team? And what’s one piece of ad- ship or threat at the same time. You’ve menleaders of the CIA, we made it a really serious vice you’d give them for the journey ahead? tioned great power competition. There’s also
climate change and the continuing pandemic. How do you rack and stack these threats and the foreign policy challenges that President-elect Biden is inheriting, and specifically, how different will his approach be, do you think, from President Trump, versus China, beyond China and Russia? BRENNAN: At the beginning of each new administration, they go through a process called the national intelligence priorities framework, which is to rack and stack all of the priorities from a policy perspective so that the intelligence community can use that framework [to] allocate their resources, their capabilities, accordingly. So I do think that the Biden administration is going to go through that.
Joe Biden and I worked [together] very closely for eight years. He is a very practical, pragmatic leader, who looks at these issues in a non-ideological fashion. So for example, dealing with China, he recognizes that there are many dimensions to the U.S.-China relationship. There’s trade, there’s economics, there’s proliferation, there’s cyber, there is the big power of the human rights. There’s primacy in the Western Pacific, the South China, East China sea. There are many, many different dimensions to it. In some areas I think Joe Biden and the team are going to recognize that there are areas for cooperation. What can we do with China to try to address North Korea’s nuclear capability? China is not really pleased with what Kim Jong-un has been doing.
And there are areas where we’re going to be reaching some type of accommodation. There will be areas of tension and also areas of confrontation. So unlike Donald Trump who tends to be absolutist in some of his approaches and characterizations, I think the Biden team is really going to try to dissect those dimensions and not just lump everything into confrontation.
The same thing is true with Russia. I think Donald Trump has had a very good relationship with Vladimir Putin. He claims that he’s tougher on Russia than anybody else. Well, it’s because of pressure from Congress and from others that he has been or has had to be. The Biden administration I think is going to look for ways to have a constructive dialogue with Russia on, for example, arms reduction talks and other types of things where we really need to engage in a constructive way with Russia.
But that doesn’t mean we’re going to ignore what Russia is doing in Ukraine or in Belarus or other areas. Again, there’s going to be
Then-Vice President Joe Biden swearing in John Brennan as director of the CIA. (White House photo by David Lienemann.)
this pragmatic, measured approach to these ceptional country. I believe in American issues and challenges, because the Biden exceptionalism, not because we’re better or team recognizes the complexity of these is- smarter or bigger than anybody else. It’s besues. Same thing with Iran. Iran is not an cause we’ve had exceptional good fortune in evil empire, a monolith. It’s not. There are terms of this country with bountiful natural many different components to Iran. resources, arable land, navigable rivers, long
The way to address these sea coast, the melting pot of problems in a constructive way is to understand some of the underlying factors “Joe Biden and I worked [together] the world. No other country has had all these benefits. And so as a result of this and to see whether or not we can leverage some of the invery closely for exceptional good fortune, I think we have exceptional fluence, the capabilities that eight years. He is responsibilities on the global we have to move things in a more positive direction. a very practical, stage. I do think more AmeriNAKASHIMA: We have pragmatic lead- cans should recognize that another question here that says public service is probaer, who looks at we, the United States, are part of this global system. bly one of the most needed these issues in a Yes, we have to ensure that elements in the formation of our youth to attain a feel- non-ideological our people are protected, are well-fed, are [taken] care ing of common purpose, fashion.” of. Yes. Unfortunately, the responsibility and destiny. mantra of “America first” has Hard question. Do you agree? been shrill on the ears of so many people BRENNAN: Absolutely. I spend a lot of around the world who believe the United time talking with universities and colleges, States is using its muscularity and its power and I’m affiliated with my two alma ma- to advance itself at the cost of others. ters, Fordham University in New York and I do think that the Biden administraUniversity of Texas at Austin. Just over the tion is going to send a different signal. It’s past couple weeks, I’ve [been] participating important for young Americans who are in seminars with students and trying to talk looking at public service, they should be about what it means to be an intelligence thinking about how they’re going to spend professional in national security, and really some time in their life for the betterment trying to encourage them to think seriously of not just their fellow citizens, but for the about these professions. betterment of humankind.
Because I do believe that we are an ex- NAKASHIMA: I have a question that sort
of meshes with one I wanted to ask you, so I’ll ask it like this. Talk a little bit about emerging [threats]; the coronavirus pandemic and climate change are threats to national and global security. How must the intelligence community adapt to confront those threats, do you think? BRENNAN: Pandemics, climate change and some of these other areas that are sort of nontraditional intelligence areas, these phenomena really fundamentally affect the world in terms of governments’ ability to grapple with these problems, address them. It has impact on the political, economic and social fronts, as governments can be weakened as a result of pandemics, as well as with climate change, as the seas rise and they reclaim coastal communities. These populations have to move inland or across borders and increase migration flows. These all have security implications.
So what CIA and other intelligence committee professionals need to do is to look at these phenomena that may have longer gestation periods and understand how they are going to affect the United State’s national security interests, as well as international security.
We’re going to get a handle on COVID-19, certainly, but it’s not going to be the last pandemic. What lessons have we learned and other countries have learned that can be incorporated into better preparedness and planning for the future? What are we learning about climate change in terms of the effect on agriculture, on economies, on employment, on migration that we really need to be considering? Because the effects of some of these things are much more insidious and much less visible and less urgent. CIA officers in particular are worried certainly about the wolf at the door, and they’re worried about the wolf down the street and the wolf in the next neighborhood. Because if they’re coming to you, if you wait until they’re at the door, then your options are much more limited.
That’s where I think that the CIA and others have been rightly criticized in the past for not looking sufficiently at the over-thehorizon challenges that ultimately are going to come to our shores. That’s where I think the leadership of CIA, as well as leadership of the administration, really needs to be thinking about what are those near-term, medium-term and longer-term threats and challenges as well as opportunities that we need to work on? NAKASHIMA: There were great concerns that Russia might attempt to do a repeat of 2016 this year. And in fact, it didn’t materialize. We were very concerned about foreign interference and foreign disinformation and misinformation. It turned out that domestic disinformation and misinformation, often fueled by the president himself, was the greatest threat to the election. How do you think about that and what’s the most effective way to deter or build resilience in the American public against disinformation threats, whether they be from Russia or China or the White House? BRENNAN: I think professionals and the government did a great job to prepare for the 2020 election and to make it more difficult for actors, whether they be domestic or foreign, to interfere technically in the election systems. There was still misinformation, disinformation that went out there, but I do think that the social media platforms and the leadership of them, those [Facebook CEO Mark] Zuckerbergs and [Twitter CEO Jack] Dorseys and others, were much more humble as well as aware this time that their platforms were being exploited.
So I think they took steps. But the question is a very valid one, especially in a digital environment. What can the government do to monitor and try to prevent the propagation of misinformation, disinformation, especially when a lot of that propagation is coming from the senior-most government officials in the United States?
I understand that hyperbole is something that goes along with politics. But outright lies, specious allegations—I’ve never seen anything like I’ve seen in the past several years. So I think as a society, we need to ask ourselves the question, How are we going to try to ensure the continuation of freedom of speech, particularly in a digital environment, but at the same time, safeguard our security and the integrity of our societies and that digital environment? What is the role of the FBI and CIA and NSA in a digital domain to monitor, to check, to thwart efforts?
Freedom of speech does not mean just freedom to put out facts. It means freedom to say what you want. There are certain limits to that. You can’t go into a theater and yell “fire,” because you endanger folks. Well, I do think that the next administration, future administrations, as well as the Congress really needs to be thinking about what are we going to do to try to prevent just the wholesale kidnapping of the digital environment and our minds by those who want to put out disinformation and to mislead us.
That’s why it’s not surprising at all that so many people believe the very malicious and false accusations [that were] made, including [about] myself. There are times that my wife looks on Twitter or something and she says, “Oh my goodness, I didn’t know you did that.” And I say, “Well, I didn’t do that.” But it gains traction.
It’s not an easy issue to address, but I do think we need to do it in a much more systemic and strategic fashion. NAKASHIMA: I think you’re absolutely right. That’s maybe the biggest challenge, one of the biggest confronting us in the next five years. We’re now out of time, but I wanted to just give our thanks to you, John, for sharing with us today and for writing this book. BRENNAN: Thank you, Ellen. I want to [take] one moment to say to everybody listening and all American citizens, that the work that is done by the CIA professionals, as well as other professionals in the intelligence, law enforcement, diplomatic, and military communities, these are your fellow citizens that are imperfect beings. They make mistakes. But they try every day to do what they can to keep this great country of ours safe and secure. So I’m sure that throughout the course of your life, you might have met somebody who had worked for the CIA, but couldn’t acknowledge it because so many of our professionals work in the shadows and cannot acknowledge their organizational affiliation.
But I think you should rest more assured at night that they are working on your behalf around the globe, 24/7, 365 days a year. So again, thank you, Ellen. Thank you to The Commonwealth Club for this opportunity to talk a little bit about national security and intelligence.
