Fall 2020
Dance Central A Dance Centre Publication
Content A Conversation with Kokoro Dance Page 2
Interview with Andreas Kahre and Mirna Zagar Page 8
Welcome to Dance Central
Collaborations A Conversation with Kokoro Dance
Barbara Bourget (BB) needs no introduction as the Artistic Director
of Kokoro Dance and a leading figure in the dance scene of Vancou-
ver. On October 6, 2020, just a few days short of her 70th birthday, I had the honour of speaking to the matriarch and her dancers-
-Deanna Peters (DP), Molly McDermott (MM) and Salome Nieto Welcome to the Fall 2020 issue of Dance Central. I am
(SN).We talked about how COVID-19 has affected their practice
excited to be sharing my first issue with you as the
as dance artists and their latest work Reading the Bones which was
new editor. What an honour it is for me to be inherit-
livestreamed on September 25, 2020. Throughout our conversation,
ing this position from a lineage of dedicated editors:
it was heartwarming for me to witness moments of tenderness that
Fran Brafman (1987), Kaija Pepper (1995), Eury Chang
speak of Barbara's relationship with her dancers over the years.
(2004) and Andreas Kahre (2011). I am humbled by this opportunity and I look forward to making known
SR: How has the pandemic changed the way you work as
the stories of our amazing dance artists spread across
artists?
British Columbia, more importantly, to expand the definition of what we have come to label as dance.
BB: Well, just living, as a human being. It is completely altered. We are social creatures and it has been quite difficult, you just
In the spirit of tracing a lineage, it is only befitting to
remove yourself from what you would normally do. You can't
celebrate this new beginning with the matriarch of
hug anybody...it’s quite isolating. It’s very hard but at the
contemporary dance in Vancouver, Barbara Bourget,
same time, it will be over at some point and we will survive it
and her longtime dancers of Kokoro Dance. Our pre-
because artists always survive, don’t they, ladies?
vious editor, Andreas Kahre, has been a bright light in showing me the way. I share my conversation with
DP: I feel I am really supported during this time by processes
him and Mirna Zagar, the Executive Director of The
that I have established before the pandemic so I sympathize
Dance Centre. To have them both as my mentors is
with younger artists who might be trying to establish them-
such a gift, especially for it to manifest during this
selves as I feel that would be really difficult right now. Being
challenging time of COVID-19.
able to fall back on my routine has contributed to a sense of normalcy during the pandemic for me.
2020 is a special year to say the least. It's nonetheless game-changing and the performing arts is trans-
SR: Can you tell me more about the processes you have
forming as we speak. Artists continue to be resilient
established?
as well as resourceful in the wake of a global pandemic. I believe we will survive and emerge stronger,
DP: Just having a movement practice. I’m lucky to have ac-
kinder and maybe a little wiser too!
cess to a studio space. Being in the studio is a different sense of time, it's like a drug trip, you're in a different world or a
As always, we thank all the artists who have agreed
dimension and when you leave, it's like you are back in that
to contribute and we welcome new writing and
other time or dimension. I feel like I could forget about almost
project ideas at any time, in order to continue to
anything when I'm dancing. That hasn't changed.
make Dance Central a more vital link to the community. Please send material by e-mail to
MM: It was really wonderful to be in the process with every-
editor@thedancecentre.ca. We look forward to many
one over the last few weeks working towards Reading the
more conversations!
Bones. It did feel a bit like we are in this bubble away from
COVID. It felt like a little oasis where we could dance, work and perform. That felt like I got to step away from the panShanny Rann, Editor 2
D a n c e C e n t r a l Fa l l 2 0 2 0
demic, I felt very fortunate.
Kokoro Dance
D a n c e C e n t r a l Fa l l 2 0 2 0
3
Collaborations
millan. We have been doing the livestreaming of HinkyPunk and Farouche. That opened up another avenue for younger artists. It's going to be a while before we can sit in a theatre. PERFORMING LIVE FOR A VIRTUAL AUDIENCE
BB: Because I have access to KW studios, I've been able to work
SR: The version of Reading the Bones that I watched online was
on my own and Salome came in the spring and worked a little,
livestreamed right? Have you performed the piece before?
but still it is challenging, people don’t seem to be reaching out the same way they did in the past. They're not going to the
BB: Yes, it was livestreamed. We performed it at The Roundhouse
studio unless they have access like Deanna does or I have. Sa-
where we did a series of eight performances. We produced it
lome has some access to a studio in Burnaby. It means stepping
as Kokoro Dance in the fall of last year. We were supposed to
out of some kind of bubble that they created. And important,
perform it at the Playhouse but since March 14th, everything
I think, is the support system. At least you get to see a few
got shut down so we couldn’t do that.
people. Like our grandchildren, whom we were not able to see for a few months and that was difficult. Now, Jay (Hirabayashi)
SN: I have to say that I was very skeptical about the initial talks
and I have gone back to the support system and that is really
of doing a livestreaming back in April, not just by Kokoro, but
nice. Molly has a beautiful young daughter and Salome has
just in general because I felt that the work needs to be pre-
three kids. Deanna has a great support system, lots of friends.
sented live and it is about the experience. I was thinking we might as well just film a video and show it, right? But I really felt
DP: I just can’t imagine what it is to be emerging right now.
very excited once I heard about Kokoro’s vision for the work, the
Emerging into what? Nothing is happening. There’s no way to
idea of livestreaming with several cameras and to consider the
meet people. So that’s why I feel that being established is a dif-
eye of the camera. It was fresh, new and exciting and I think it
ferent experience than for example, “Oh, you are going to your
is the right way to approach a livestreaming. That has opened
training program”.
all the possibilities, not replacing live performance but it is now something really exciting. In a way, the pandemic has brought
SN: There’s no training program. I felt very lost at the beginning.
good things. It makes us stop, rethink, reset, slow down and be
I was not functioning, it took me a while to find my way out. It
creative.
was stressful because I have an administration job that I have to figure out the logistics, programming and all of that. So it was
SR: That leads me to my next question, is it different performing
really great that I have Barbara. That saved me, thank you!
for a camera as opposed to a live audience?
BB: KW Studio and Kokoro Dance did a process for about three
BB: I'm not an expert on cameras, or livestreaming, or mak-
weeks where we produced new artists, emerging artists, equity-
ing videos. Our son, Joseph Hirabayashi, decided that
seeking artists. We produced 15 music, dance and theatre
he would take it on as a project. He had to figure out how to
pieces where we covered all the costs of the studios plus we
do everything. We had a switcher, the cameras were choreo-
gave an honorarium to the choreographer, the leader. We're
graphed by him. We did eight runs, five days, if you can believe
discussing how we're going to do that again because that's the
it. Jessica Han, who is the lighting designer, also worked
kind of thing--artists helping artists--that really makes a strong
really closely with him. We have the cameras and Joseph would
community. The more we can band together for projects, the
direct them. I haven't watched any of the recordings, but I’m
more we can become independent in a sense that we're not
sure every single one is quite different, they focused on different
reliant completely. We have funding to help people. We will help
aspects of the work. The intimacy of the camera is what people
people. That is important to recognize, there are people who are
really responded to, it didn’t feel flat, it had some depth. Within
working that way and not just worrying about themselves and
that context of that time and space, it had meaning.
actually trying to help because the art really needs new people all the time. The energy of youth is great and the kind of wide-
DP: In terms of the experience of performing, I would say that
eyed innocence like “Why can’t I do that?” from Ralph Esca-
it’s not very different in terms of what you bring, the embodi-
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Dance Central Fall 2020
" The more we can band together for projects, the more we can become independent. We have funding to help people. We will help people. That is important to recognize, there are people who are working that way and not just worrying about themselves and actually trying to help because the art really needs new people all the time." ment, the concepts that you're imagining. If you think of the
least that’s what I gathered through the comments sent to us.
camera as an eye that you can relate to, just as you would to an
The aliveness with the cameras, someone switching, making
audience, different camera work is going to speak differently to
choices. It wasn’t just a camera with a single focus, nobody pay-
different works. Some of it really strengthened the work to have a
ing attention, it did feel like a dance with all of us, including a
multiple-camera view and it adds a formality to it. I would say that
cameraman who kept walking back and forth (chuckling). Dan,
allowed for more of the meaning of the choreography to come
he was great! He had the close-up and he had to carry a camera
through as opposed to the camera creating new meaning. I am
for an hour and not trip over the cables and fall over.
also curious if I have a genuine experience, is that still going to be transmitted to the audience via the parasympathetic nervous
MM: I wondered if I would miss having an audience in the space
system and mirror neurons through the pixels? That would be
with me but I didn’t. I did feel as though people were watching.
an interesting research for 2020! Can we actually send physical
I felt the difference between the dress runs versus the perfor-
energy through the screen?
mances but I can’t exactly say why. I definitely agree that the relationship between the four of us is very, very special and it
BB: The relationship between the dancers within the context of
is different than it had felt a year ago on the stage. Not that we
time and space can really shine through the intensity of it all. We
didn’t have a meaningful relationship then, but this time it felt
did have quite a few people watching but we couldn’t see them.
more intimate, more connected. I felt that heightened sense of
It was a heightened sense of performance. The four of us. I just
awareness between the four of us. I felt, like Salome, the inten-
thought we were really hot, really on the money each time! We
sity of the movement, of our presence, would get lost through
did 8 run throughs and they were different each time. Sometimes
technology but I don’t think it did, judging from the way people
we were very tired, sometimes very energetic. To me, it felt alive
have reacted to the piece. It seemed like people found it very
in the moment, which I think is what people responded to, at
emotional and visceral and could sense what you would sense D a n c e C e n t r a l Fa l l 2 0 2 0 5
Dance Central The Dance Centre Scotiabank Dance Centre Level 6, 677 Davie Street Vancouver BC V6B 2G6 T 604.606.6400 F 604.606.6401 info@thedancecentre.ca www.thedancecentre.ca
Collaborations
if you were there live, and maybe new things too. Things
Dance Central is published quarterly by The Dance Centre for its members and for the dance community. Opinions expressed are those of the authors and do not necessarily represent Dance Central or The Dance Centre. The editor reserves the right to edit for clarity or length, or to meet house requirements.
you wouldn’t see if you were watching in the theatre.
Editor, Art Director & Layout Shanny Rann Copy Editor Claire French
anyone read Anne Bogart from A Director Prepares? She
Contributors to this issue: Barbara Bourget, Molly McDermott, Deanna Peters, Salome Nieto, Andreas Kahre, Mirna Zagar Kokoro Dance Photo credits: Courtesy of Kokoro Dance, Joseph Hirabayashi, Chris Randle (front cover) Dance Centre Board Members: Chair Sheila G. Evani Vice Chair Megan Halkett Secretary Rob Kitsos Treasurer Annelie Vistica Rosario Ancer, Carolyn Chan, Julianne Chapple, Anndraya T Luui, Jason Wrobleski
DP: I was imagining someone specific watching me. Did anyone else do that? I kept thinking about my dad. Has has this idea of an ideal audience member that you are creating for. Did any of you experience that? SN: All the time (laughing). MM: Yeah, I think most of us have had people watching from other parts of the world. So that was special, that they can tune in and see a piece that they wouldn’t normally see. I definitely thought of those people. My aunt
Dance Foundation Board Members: Chair Linda Blankstein Secretary Anndraya T. Luui Treasurer Janice Wells Directors Trent Berry, Samantha Luo, Mark Osburn, Sasha Morales, Andrea Benzel
was watching and wouldn’t normally.
Dance Centre Staff: Executive Director Mirna Zagar Programming Coordinator Raquel Alvaro Associate Producer Linda Blankstein Director of Marketing Heather Bray Digital Marketing Coordinator Lindsay Curtis Member Services and Outreach Coordinator Claire French Venue and Services Administrator Robin Naiman Venue and Services Coordinator Alice Jones Development Director Sheri Urquhart Lead Technician Chengyan Boon Comptroller Elyn Dobbs
lot more details then I would have sitting in a theatre,
SR: As an audience, I felt the camera was guiding me to a level that was much more intimate and catching a depending on which row I am at. With the camera, you feel like you have a privileged access, to be so close to the dancers for the first time. I wonder if the camera is now incorporated as part of the choreography. Does it feel any different as dancers? BB: I just want to underscore that we didn’t change the choreography for the camera. It was a collaboration in the sense that Joseph also wrote the music for Reading the Bones. He’s our son, and he has an intimate relationship
with the work because he wrote the music and because he had seen the piece quite a bit and because we talked about how we don't want it to be static, we want the cameras to be moving, so I just want to be clear that we did not alter anything from the inside of the work. We just
The Dance Centre is BC's primary resource centre for the dance profession and the public. The activities of The Dance Centre are made possible bynumerous individuals. Many thanks to our members, volunteers, community peers, board of directors and the public for your ongoing commitment to dance in BC. Your suggestions and feedback are always welcome. The operations of The Dance Centre are supported by the Canada Council for the Arts, the Province of British Columbia, the BC Arts Council, and the City of Vancouver through the Office of Cultural Affairs.
did it, we had to alter the spacing a little bit because the space is smaller than the stage, but it was very organic. DP: Kokoro’s work is not 5-6-7-8 and choreographed. As much as I am musical, we all relate to time in our own way. It’s structured improvisation, even though the structures are quite small so just to kind of relay that. That’s a given that we all know about but maybe other people
6 D a n c e C e n t r a l Fa l l 2 0 2 0
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"Dancing with Kokoro has taught me that I can do anything. I feel powerful. Every other experience I've had since starting my first professional dance performance with Kokoro, I've been able to tell myself: I got this."
Passing on the Baton
Interview with Andreas Kahre and Mirna Zagar
to make that available to a broader community. SR: I like that you were coming from a collective approach but the making of Dance Central in the past has been quite solitary for you, hasn’t it? AK: We didn't have any funds to hire writers, which is the ongoing challenge in magazine publishing, even at the measly
I became the Editor of Dance Central in July this year, seventeen
rates writers get. Dance Central was originally perceived as
years after I first joined SFU's dance program as an international
a newsletter for members only, to make members aware of
student. Since graduating, my love for dance has taken me to many
the schedule of events at the Dance Centre. To expand that
countries in various capacities as a performer, dramaturg, scholar
role was an interesting challenge, but without funding, the
and dance anthropologist. I returned to Vancouver in 2015 after be-
best strategy seemed to use the ‘conversation’ and to provide
ing away for eleven years. In a way, this editor role is a homecoming
an interdisciplinary avenue for artists involved with dance to
for me as I shifted from a distant enthusiast to the centre of dance
speak about their work.
conversations in BC overnight. I am excited to be given this opportunity as a Southeast Asian immigrant and a non-native English
MZ: I think making Dance Central collaborative has been a
speaker, but it is also a testament of the changing times as well as
perpetual challenge for us, because I find a lot of times artists
the progressiveness of the team behind The Dance Centre.
say they don't have time. Or they feel they're not equipped to write about their work, or they simply want someone else
Andreas Kahre (AK) joined Dance Central as Editor in 2011 and
to write about them. My sense is that it has to do a lot with
after eight years, felt it was a good time for the publication to reflect
artists not being equipped to write about and to speak about
the generational shift in the BC dance community. For the past few
their works to different audiences. They're more comfortable
months, he has been extremely helpful in providing me with the
speaking in their dance jargon, to their immediate teams and
background and technical knowledge of Dance Central. I am grate-
collaborators and to their colleagues, but anything that goes
ful for his and Mirna Zagar (MZ)'s support in taking the helm of
beyond those categories, I feel many of them try to get out
Dance Central.
of it. Am I correct, Andreas? Is that your experience? A lot of it has to do with language.
SR: What was it that made you want to be the editor for Dance Central?
DIFFICULTIES OF WRITING AND TALKING ABOUT DANCE
AK: Dance Central at the time was mainly a newsletter for
AK: I agree with Mirna. A lot of dancers are certainly more
members, in a simple format with eight pages of content. My
comfortable if they can use a kind of shorthand to describe
motivation in taking it on was based on my past as a col-
their work. Dance, like music is difficult to talk or write about
laborator with many different dance artists who had begun
at the best of times, which among other things presents an
to work outside of the hierarchical model, with the choreog-
ongoing challenge for designers and musical collaborators:
rapher at the top, and started to develop relationships with
How does a choreographer talk about scenography or light-
their performers, designers and composers as co-creators. In
ing? What is our shared aesthetic frame of reference other
many projects the dancers were now generating a lot of the
than “I want to make sure that my face can be seen”? And be-
material. In the context of Dance Central, I was interested in
yond that, there is is the question of placing dance in a broad-
creating a format that would give dance artists who weren’t
er aesthetic context, in a critical way and in a meaningful cul-
necessarily choreographers room to speak about their prac-
tural framework. Over the years, dancers have become much
tice and explore what they were interested in. To my delight,
more aware and articulate on those aspects — take Natalie
what I found was that many contemporary dancers had
Tin Yin Gan, who I had a conversation with a while back.
become much more articulate about their practice. They had
She was an interesting character to talk to because she is very
learned to see their work in a broader context, and I wanted
aware of how different her frame of reference is compared to
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Dance Central Fall 2020
PASSING ON THE BATON
there's a lot to be done there, and the work should start as early in the study of dance as possible. Choreography is not just putting movements together, to have a voice you must develop your vocabulary, your syntax and this will lead to your style. HAPPY MEMORIES WITH DANCE CENTRAL
a local audience, and she credits her collaborators for finding a way to communicate this. To some extent, it's really up to
SR: Andreas, what are some of your memorable conversations
collaborators to educate dance artists, to say if you want to
you have had during your time with Dance Central?
make a decision, here is a framework for it. It's not just that you prefer pink over green but what are we telling an audi-
AK: There are quite a few. I should begin by thanking Hilary
ence? What is their frame of reference for our work? That is an
Maxwell, who has been wonderful to work with, and kept
ongoing process, of course, but there are more people willing
the publication going as The Dance Centre's Membership
to help dance broaden its framework. The impetus often
Coordinator, with an excellent mind for dance writing, and as
still comes from the outside, especially from curators. That's
a sharp-eyed copy editor. One important series was based on
the other big change, I think — the need for dance artists to
our attempt to connect to the indigenous dance community.
position themselves vis-a-vis what a curator might need to
Initially, we collaborated with Mique’l Dangeli, who was
understand, and the opportunity for curators to broaden the
going to act as a guest curator, but had to withdraw when
audience’s language. It's been interesting to see how this has
she finished her Ph.D. and was offered a university position
unfolded in Vancouver, especially with curators that aren't
in Alaska. But she did provide an introduction to the series,
from within the local dance scene, as when Mirna brought in
and to some of the dancers, who in turn offered introductions
Adam Hayward from New Zealand or Pirjetta Mulari
to their peers, and out of these personal recommendations
from Finland — curators who have a different context for how
a very interesting series of conversations emerged, based
dance is spoken about and how it is presented.
on a completely different set of political, cultural, social and aesthetic perspectives. One particular highlight for me was a
MZ: I often think of when I studied art history, all we did in
conversation with Margaret Grenier who had a fascinat-
the first year was to find descriptive language to describe
ing way of positioning her work as a dance artist among a set
what we saw in initially more realistic paintings, and slowly
of historical and contemporary questions regarding protocol,
progressing to abstract. Although the painting is abstract,
and the dialogue within the indigenous community about
you can speak about it with some quite concrete ideas,
what should and should not be shared. I thought that was
statements, because you develop the language, perspective
something that you couldn't easily find anywhere else, and
and ways of analyzing the art work for what it is and from
that made me happy.
the context that it comes from, or you create the context for what you are looking at from what you know or see around
SR: That's good to know. How has the dancing in Vancouver
it. I think that is something that is missing in dancers' educa-
changed?
tion, especially for choreographers; it is not dealt with in a consistent manner. During the study period, they all are very
AK: The relationship between contemporary dance and ballet
well-versed in talking about their work to a very specific audi-
comes to my mind. Unlike the 80s and 90s when I began to
ence, the audience of peers. When they graduate and start
work with contemporary dancers, there are now a number
speaking about their works, we see often that they copy and
of companies who combine a completely contemporary
paste what they wrote in their grant applications, forgetting
approach to dance, with popular culture, hip hop, media
that perhaps it requires translation, or transposition of the
content — and ballet. This shift in contemporary dance took
thought, idea, concept to address another group of people. I
place a little before I took over as the editor, but it created a
find that artists often get quite attached to certain statements
very different dimension of contemporary work, by a genera-
that really mean something to them or to their milieu. I think
tion of dance artists that combined elements in a different
D a n c e C e n t r a l Fa l l 2 0 2 0
9
way. Another shift is a movement away from the ‘interdisci-
level that I've never experienced before.
plinary’ model of combining dance and theatre in the way a generation of dance artists who went through their training
AK: I would imagine that in a more intimate setting, text is
at SFU had been working — especially with the integration
easier to use to communicate in the context of dance per-
of text and theatre elements into dance. SFU has created a
formance. It's not the same thing as yelling at an audience of
whole generation of artists with training in both forms, and
150 while running in circles. Besides which, there were often
looked for ways to combine the two — with mixed results that
technical issues with dancers trying to project text while
weren’t always successful, either as theatre or as dance. But
moving. Those ‘issues’ are interesting in themselves of course,
it found a sympathetic audience and it was really a process
and some dance artists who integrate text now are explor-
of development. My sense is that dance has become more
ing these questions from a new vantage point. I am thinking
episodic, influenced more by the rhythms of interactive media
for example of Alexa Mardon, whose practice aims to
and video art, and less concerned with narrative, which in
integrate critical reflection on performance and on the body,
the 90s, was very much at the forefront and has since faded,
in society, in a discipline, and across disciplines. And this work
or been replaced by a different mode of narrativity, one that
appears to be less concerned with the conventional models of
integrates text, space, data in a new way.
dance dramaturgy that have been prevalent since the 90s.
DANCE AND TEXT
PASSING ON THE BATON
SR: It brings to mind Ziyian Kwan’s new space, called Mor-
SR: Andreas, now that you're passing on the baton, do you
row on West Pender in Vancouver. I attended a series of solo
have any hopes for Dance Central?
performances by her and other female dancers as tribute to their grandmothers. They were combining text in their dances
AK: One thing that comes to mind relates to COVID, and the
with narratives and poems. Sometimes, words got thrown out
way it has completely rearranged what it means to be work-
as they moved their bodies across the space. The whole ex-
ing in the performing arts. As sad as that is, it might create an
perience was very new to me, there were just two of us in the
opportunity for Dance Central to become an artistic platform
audience including myself. It was such an intimate space and
in its own right, neither a blog nor a magazine but something
you feel the dancers were talking to you, looking you straight
lively and interactive that allows dance artists to use text and
in your eyes, performing for you and really engaging you at a
images in a new way. Having a visual and text-based medium
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Dance Central Fall 2020
Passing on the Baton that is accessible everywhere might just create an oppor-
you, Shanny! We are here now on this new path that has to
tunity to develop work that integrates writing in a different
reveal itself and we're all in this together!
format than a review or an ‘article’. I think there is something potentially exciting in that! Andreas Kahre continues to teach sound and work as a
Another aspect of Dance Central in the future is, again, con-
freelance designer and dramaturg. He lives in Vancouver and
nected to the restrictions we are experiencing and has to do
on Gabriola Island.
with creating an archive of artistic activity of this time and in this time. I am thinking of the artists in the community who
Mirna Zagar joined The Dance Centre as Executive Direc-
tell me that they are having a hard time creating — not just
tor in 1998.She has been instrumental in building bridges
physically, but because the boundaries against which we
between Vancouver and international communities. In 2009
judge artistic decisions have shifted or even disappeared. So,
she was presented with a commemorative medallion by the
as a composer might wonder whether the next note should
Governor General Michaëlle Jean for her work in the further-
be an E flat or a B, the context has shifted and makes some
ing of cultural relations between Canada and Croatia.
aspects of creative work feel arbitrary. The other aspect is of course that the social dimensions of our lives are so severely curtailed. And with that, it is getting more difficult to maintain a shared record of our response, both individually and as a community as COVID goes on. Dance Central, like any magazine, has always been in part an archive, but now that function seems more important than ever to me. This is because we may be in this for the next five years, or it may never go away. SR: That's true. This is such a critical time to be archived, because when we look back many years from now, this is a time when many things are shifting, and it is the start of new beginnings. I like the idea of making the interview process transparent on social media platforms or turning it into a podcast. I agree with you, Andreas, the future of Dance Central is exciting! I envision it to be inclusive of the great many dance styles and artists to reflect the diverse ethnic communities and geographic regions across BC. I look forward to discovering and getting to know all the dance lovers I have yet to meet. Mirna, do you have any last words? MZ: I just want to thank you, Andreas! I'm sure you're not going away and our paths will cross again in different formats. I really want to thank you and let you know how much we all appreciated where you've taken us. We've got big shoes to fill and standards to uphold, but also as one door closes, another opens! A new pathway is in the making. So the power be with
D a n c e C e n t r a l Fa l l 2 0 2 0
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Collaborations
don't realize about the work. It's not choreographed in that sense, it is not steps on beats, except for one part and then it really stands out. It’s the only time you can’t f**k up when we are supposed to hit the right count at the right beat (laughing). MM: Yeah, it changes and it breathes. Livestreaming it four times as opposed to just once is nice because it really did evolve and change because it is not choreographed. A moment of silence, followed by Barbara exclaiming, “That's great to hear!” and everyone else erupting into laughter. DP: It gives autonomy to the moment, to other things other than our own egos, but also gives space for our own ideas of expression and concepts. I do think that's an important thing to relay during this time to people because I feel like so much dance is so much about product and it's so normative, it has all this stuff over top of it, you're expected to be this gender and this idea of how a woman should move, so much of dance is so controlled and tight. What’s beautiful about dance in Kokoro is you are constantly being an artist... BB: Making choices. SN: Making choices. BB: It’s really a key to expressions because you can't just do everything the same way all the time. It's so boring not just for the performer, but for the audience too. You can tell when people have made the same choices, day in and day out. So it is very freeing to work the way we work. I make steps because I can’t help myself but Jay never makes steps. Or when he tries to make steps, it’s really difficult. SR: I like the fact that Dance Central is not meant to be a place for reviews; it offers a space for dance artists to talk about their own work or their experience of performing. I think that's a rare platform to have. It's liberating to hear you talk about how the piece has affected you as a dancer, not just following steps the choreographer has decided. Do you think it's the freedom that butoh allows, for the dancer to have her own voice within a piece, or do you see that happening in other forms of contemporary dance too?
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"So much of dance is about product, you're expected to be this gender and this idea of how a woman should move... so much of dance is controlled and tight. What’s beautiful about dance in Kokoro is you are constantly being an artist."
BB: Butoh depends on who's doing it, whose butoh it is. Butoh
SR: Was that how Reading the Bones came together? What
in my opinion is really key to the experience of the person
was the process like?
who is creating it. For instance, Dairakudakan, Molly went with us to Hakuba and in fact the work they do is really on the
MM: Initially, you were drawing from materials over the how-
beat. It is a huge amount of people, it’s like a ballet! Molly is
ever many decades Kokoro has been working at…
being flung around, doing the Mambo. It was very rigorously choreographed but you could still be yourself within it. It was
BB: 33 years.
so fast and so short a time for learning that it was quite a challenge for this old body. Molly and Billy Marchenski were
MM: Through that prolific period, we have a lot of materials to
really great but then we have worked with other people who
draw from. We revisited works from before any of us worked
just give an idea--the rain is falling, walking in the forest and
with you and then some that we have done before and then
then you begin there and you begin to work. I think it's more
it evolved and got woven together and became Reading
imagistic sometimes than what contemporary dance works
the Bones. I have forgotten that it was old material, it feels
are necessarily but I don't think you can just say that because
fresh and new. It says something about Barbara's work that it
there are a lot of contemporary dance artists who also work
continues to be relevant, to grow or evolve. It feels alive and
very deeply and very imagistically. It's hard to put labels on
it doesn’t feel like steps to me. That’s a little bit of insight into
the things that influence, to say butoh is this or that, it’s like
the process.
saying Ballet is this or that. It’s maybe more interesting to talk about what influences choreographers and I think that’s a
SN: At the very beginning when I first joined, I was interpret-
wide range. I love all sorts of dance and it comes in when I'm
ing this process as if we were going to revisit what we have
not even expecting it to.
done, what's left in the memory in our bones. It was reconnecting with a lot of the work that we have done. As I am get-
DP: I can talk about house dance in a whole other interview
ting older with a different body, with new life experiences, the
(laughing) and how that relates to my practice. We have all
movement and the material just felt very different. There was
worked with lots of choreographers and there’s a process
an opportunity to understand it better. For me, it’s very much
within it that is individual. Every choreographer is different
about what still resonates, what is left in our bodies, what can
and a lot of them do work imagistically. For me it's always
we still respond to all the choreographic works in the past.
about relating the image to my body, that's the only way I can
Not to say the past is stagnant, but it is still alive there and
do it. For example, the world has ended and there is a bunch
now it has a new form of expression. It is very rich and I get
of electricity and you are stepping in water... but for me, I'm
very excited and animated.
not actually thinking that. There is that layer of interpretation, what is electricity? Electricity is in my body. How does it move through my body? That is my process. I’m sure it’s different
WORKING WITH BARBARA
for everybody. There are lots of things I am not good at. I see other dancers and wonder how is it that they can be so good
SR: All of you have had many years of dancing with Kokoro
at doing what the choreographer said? To me, it’s always back
Dance. Would you like to talk about your relationship with
to the body.
Barbara?
BB: Butoh is very much like that as well, it's always back into
DP: I have been dancing with Kokoro since I was in university.
the body.
That was in 2002. I hated everything about university except my experience with Barbara. I wanted to be pushed, I wanted
Dance Central Fall 2020
13
Collaborations to be utilized. I had a drive that I feel was not actually appreci-
how it feeds them. You don’t want to do work that doesn’ t
ated in other spaces. I'm from a sports background as well
feed your process, where you are yawning and bored all the
as an arts background so I don't associate aggression with
time. Jay and I work together and we have a lot of explosions
being a bad person. I felt like a part of coming into the dance
in the room because we have a passionate relationship. We
scene in Vancouver, there was a lot of this reckoning with me
work together and we only do it in the room, we don't do it at
about the energy that my body creates or produces. Barbara
home, which is a good thing or we wouldn’t be married.
sat down beside me at an art gallery opening while we were watching this video and she said to me, “Well, if you want to
SR: So you have the ability to separate between your personal
dance for my company, you have to come to my class.” So I
and professional life?
just did that. Part of my journey as an artist has been choreographing and performing simultaneously. I have taken as long
BB: That’s a very hard line to draw, but we do make an effort.
as a five-year break but I think a lot of value is in the history I
We just talk about dance all the time, which can be really bor-
have with the work. I can drop into the images easily because
ing. We run the Vancouver International Dance Festival and
I've been trained in the form with Barbara and Jay. Even
there's so much to do all the time anyway. Sometimes you
during Reading the Bones we didn't train a lot in butoh like
just need to stop talking.
we might in some other processes because all of us already have this background. During the performances several times
MM: Like Deanna, I also met Barbara at university back in
I dropped into a golden thread, seeing it everywhere like
2006. I started working for Kokoro in 2007 when I graduated
images of the butoh body, but I got to say that dancing with
and have worked with them on and off since. I probably have
Kokoro has taught me that I can do anything. I feel powerful.
been a part of most of their works in the past 14 years, not to
Every other experience I've had since starting my first profes-
echo too much of what has already been said but it did feel
sional dance performance with Kokoro, I've been able to tell
very refreshing to meet Barbara and there was no one quite
myself, “I got this”.
like her who invests so much in me. Barbara invests so much in people who work for you. Both her and Jay always ask for
BB: The depth of experimentation with my beautiful danc-
more and I think that’s a real gift. I don't think that I've had a
ers grows every time I work with them. They're also working
relationship like that in the dance world. I've grown so much
on their own process it's not like I dictate what they should
over the last 14 years because of them. I don't want to get too
be or who they are but I appreciate very much the desire to
soppy because I'll just start to cry.
embrace the work in a way that is not egocentric but powerful in the sense of reaching out beyond your own sh** which
BB: No, I’ve got tears in my eyes already. It’s too early in the
we all have. The great thing about the freedom when you
day to cry.
work that way, is that the world comes into you and when you start to feed it back, it is transformed already. You can really
MM: Yeah, call me again at 7pm.
open people's hearts and minds and they can see through the process, at least the people who have commented on the ex-
BB: It’s too early for wine.
traordinary depth of feeling that the camera produced within this context that we did, which is something that happens in
Deanna had to leave the conversation at this point.
the theatre when you do it live but not quite with the same intensity because they saw the sweat close-up, sometimes it
SR: Salome, is there anything you would like to add about
is somebody’s elbow on screen, and it’s other people's choices
your 26 years of experience working with Barbara?
but I think it really worked as a team effort. Molly, Deanna and Salome have worked with Kokoro on and off over twenty
SN: I found Barbara and Jay challenging, in the challenge,
odd years. So they have a sense of what the work requires and
I have been given so much. I was inspired by them, since I
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Dance Central Fall 2020
The heart shines out of the chest always in butoh The heart is really what you are offering
Collaborations
took my first class, I just thought, 'I'm staying here'. They have
rector of Royal Winnipeg Ballet in the 60s and 70s. Fernand
shaped my career , they have influenced me so much. I con-
Nault, the director of Les Grands Ballets, he and his staff. You
sider them my mentors. I feel blessed to have come to a new
just get so many mentors when you start dancing because
country and to have this amazing relationship and a beautiful
everyone has something to offer if you really pick it up. I've
career. It was difficult at the beginning because I came as a
been blessed really. And then Jay as well, in his own way, has
mother with children but it is so rewarding. Every class, at the
been my mentor, my supporter. I continually learn so much
end of it, I felt rewarded. At the end of every rehearsal, I felt
from my dancers that I think of them as my mentors too.
rewarded. At the end of every performance, I felt the same.
Dance does not happen in isolation, you can’t make dance
There were moments when I had so much self-doubt and
without dancers, it’s as simple as that. You can make dance for
freaked out quietly inside but there is this trust, that when
kids, for people who aren’t really dancers but want to move
you have put in so much work, just go on stage and do it! A
and I've done all that kind of work but the real joy for me is to
lot of self doubt because it is so challenging but rewarding at
work with dancers with the dancer heart.
the end. I am so happy, grateful. Thank you, Barbara! SR: Can you talk a little bit about this dancer heart? BB: Thank you Salome! I have danced all my life since I was 3, I'm going to be 70 on October 10. I can remember the mo-
BB: I don't know how to express it but it's a physical feeling. I
ment I saw Deanna and she walked into my class in 2000 and
feel it. I know that when we're dancing. I don’t know how to
I was teaching at SFU and her energy pulled me right away.
explain it. There's a feeling like electricity, like you're just so
Same with Molly, when I met her, I was teaching a Repertory
vibrant and the heart is shining. The heart shines out of the
class and her energy and her presence just attracted me right
chest always in butoh. The heart is really what you're offering
away and the same thing with Salome. She came flying into
and that can mean different things to different people. But I
my class 2 minutes late in 1990. Right away again, her energy
can feel it. I mean the heart just pumps, it’s not really doing
is what attracted me to her and I mean all three of them could
anything but it's heart, mind, spirit and soul all together that
dance, that was wonderful, they have different training but
bring the meaning to work. We can all do steps and I can ride
they all attracted me because I'm always looking for dancers.
a stationary bicycle but it's not moving for people to watch
They all have been wonderful in supporting our work. It is a
me on it. It’s physical but it’s not just that, it has to be this con-
beautiful thing because you don’t always find that. Our work
nection. Heart, mind, spirit and soul that really come together
would not grow as well if we have to keep retraining people.
for expression. You know when you see it. You just know.
It’s so nice to be able to call them to ask if they are available
People get moved.
for a project. I am always very grateful to my dancers. Without them, there wouldn’t be any dancing.
SR: Dance is a language that speaks across boundaries. Are most of your pieces intergenerational? Is working with differ-
SR: Barbara, you have been a mentor to so many dancers in
ent age groups something you are passionate about?
Vancouver. Who is your mentor? BB: I don’t know if I can assess my work on terms like that. I am BB: One of them was one of my first ballet teachers, Mara
moved to do what I am moved to do. I have choreographed
McBirney, who taught in Vancouver. She was a cranky Scot-
for kids at high school musicals. There is something joyful
tish woman who smoked cigarettes in the studio when she
about working with all sorts of people.
taught and drank whiskey. But she was wonderful, she had a passion for the arts. She taught Lynn Seymour as well, a
SR: I'm asking because for example, when you choreograph
Vancouver dancer who went to London’s Royal Ballet. Paula
for kids, you are working with dancers around the same age
Ross who was a choreographer in Vancouver. She’s 80 and she lives in Nanaimo now. Arnold Spohr, who was the di-
and training, but there is something when you put signifi-
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Dance Central Fall 2020
cantly different bodies together, be it age or background.
Something about the fusion makes it special and sometimes
SN: People often say you can't move because of all that you
challenging for the audience.
put your body through, you abuse your body, all these false
BB: You mean because there's an old lady on stage? I will
notions and obviously you are using your body, working, you
dance, I will continue to dance until I can't dance anymore or
are physical. If I stop moving, I can't move. There are a lot of
die. I don't think in terms of that. I think in terms of expres-
misconceptions of what dance is, what a dancer should look
sion, of power. You can find that with younger people. Today
like, how long a dance career should last but there are mis-
is quite different than it was 10 years ago, even 20 years ago.
conceptions in everything. We just do what we need to do.
There is a lot more anxiety about the creative process, a lot more in my view, wanting to be many, many things without
SELF-CARE PRACTICE AS ARTISTS
focusing on training. It's the way the world works. My experience was training, joining a company, being looked after, all
SR: Would each of you like to share what your self-care prac-
of that and then when I went out on my own and it was also
tice is as artists during this pandemic?
creating a company. So I never did anything like the freelancing thing people have to do now. I really enjoy being with
SN: Baths, a lot of baths. I've tried to connect with family and
younger people, middle-aged, older people. It's all good. They
friends, keep my connections alive because isolation affects
all bring something to the process. It was fun choreographing
everybody. For me, self-care is to keep moving.
8 musicals for the Kitsilano High School. It was really fun, but impossible to talk. “Shut up and listen to Barbara!” some of the
MM: I'm trying to find ways to stay in shape while also caring
kids would say to each other.
for my daughter. She’s almost 2 now so she requires a lot of energy. She’s part of my practice now. I’m learning from her,
MM: In my experience, over the years of working with Kokoro,
it's just one of the most beautiful things I have done, to have
there has been a variety of age groups. When I started with
a kid. I have less time to do the training I used to do pre-child,
the company, I was the youngest. Most of the women in
but I will get back to it eventually.
the company then were in their thirties and forties. I really value that and that they don't just hire all twenty-year-olds. I
BB: Pretty much the same I mean our self-care revolves
learned a lot from those women and obviously from Barbara
around our four children and our five grandchildren. We have
and Jay. There is wisdom for different ages of bodies as they
a daughter in Toronto, a son-in-law and two grandchildren
continue to dance. I really appreciate that, you call it inter-
there whom we haven’t been able to see, so that’s been diffi-
generational but I don’t think it is necessarily intentional. You
cult. We have been doing Zoom meetings. We have three kids
just work with who you want to work with. The different life
here and three grandchildren here, so we're able to stay in
experiences that we all bring to it. We can’t look at the same
touch because family is really important for our inner strength
bodies and same age. I really appreciate that.
as human beings. We live in a co-op, and there are people here living alone, self-isolating and it’s really distressing. Dr
SR: I think it sends out a positive message because dance is
Bonnie Henry talked about the stress of living alone. We
known to be a career that is short-spanned.
are such social creatures.
BB: Now, who says that? Excuse me. This is not correct. There
SN: I miss my children. I have not seen them that much during
are tonnes of dancers who dance their entire lives. It is a false
this pandemic so that has been very difficult on my part. I
narrative to say dance is only for the young. Arthritis is a big
have only seen them twice or thrice from afar. Virtual hugs.
enemy, the joints. Jay is having another knee replacement but you have to keep moving or you stiffen up. Then, you have
SR: Thank you so much for your time this morning. It's been a
trouble. You can’t sit down or you can't stand up once you
pleasure watching your performance and having the chance
have sat down. Keep moving is my advice.
to talk about it.
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