November/December 2017
Dance Central A Dance Centre Publication
New Spaces Creating Connection A conversation with Margaret Grenier Page 2
About Dance Central A conversation with Andreas Kahre Page 6
Welcome to Dance Central
Welcome to the Winter 2017 issue of Dance Central, which features a conversation with Margaret Grenier, artistic director of the Dancers of Damelahamid and a member of the Board of Directors of The Dance Centre. We are very pleased to announce that we will be continuing our series on indigenous dance and dance artists that we began in 2016 with her guidance and support. The second feature of this issue is a conversation with Andreas Kahre, who has been editor and art director of Dance Central since 2011, in an attempt to reflect on the developments that have taken place in the performing arts in Vancouver over the past six years, and to imagine where we may find ourselves as we move on from here. It is also an invitation to participate and strengthen the role that Dance Central can play in the dance community. As always, we thank all the artists who have agreed to contribute and we welcome new writing and project ideas at any time, in order to continue to make Dance Central a more vital link to the community. Please send material by e-mail to members@thedancecentre.ca or call us at 604.606.6416. We continue to look forward to the conversation! Andreas Kahre, Editor 2
Dance Central November/December 2017
Creating Connection A conversation with Margaret Grenier
Margaret is the Executive and Artistic Director for the Dancers of Damelahamid. She
Following last year's inaugural series on indigenous
choreographed the full-length works Setting the Path 2004 and Sharing the Spirit
dance artists, we are hoping to create the framework
2007, which toured internationally to New Zealand in 2008 and the 2010 World Expo
for an ongoing presence and dialogue with First Na-
in Shanghai, China. Her other works include Visitors Who Never Left as a site specific
tions artists and community members.
work in 2009, Dancing our Stories 2010, Spirit Transforming 2012, In Abundance 2014, and Flicker 2016. Margaret has directed and produced the Coastal First Nations
AK: In reading the artistic statement of your company,
Dance Festival since 2008. Margaret holds a Masters of Arts in Arts Education at
the Dancers of Damelahamid, I was struck by a pair-
Simon Fraser University. She was a sessional instructor at Simon Fraser University for Foundations in Aboriginal Education, Language, and Culture in 2007. Margaret was a faculty member for the Banff Centre Indigenous Dance Residency 2013. Margaret presented at the World Indigenous Peoples Conference on Education in Australia 2008, Peru 2011, and Hawaii 2015. She serves on the Board for The Dance Centre as well as the Canadian Dance Assembly.
ing of mandates: on the one hand, a commitment to a trans-generational approach to your work, and at the same time the development of the form. The transgenerational aspect is of course one thing that sets First Nations dance apart from many non-indigenous forms of dance — other than perhaps through the lineage of techniques. How do you approach that idea? MG: I think it is a process that has been transformational within our own company over the past seven years. Up until 2010, the year that my father passed, I had always practiced hereditary dances within our family’s lineage. That's what I grew up with and that's the training and the foundation that I continue to work from. However, when my father passed, and the authority of those dances was moved forward within the lineage, I began to understand a lot of the politics surrounding the way in which the dances were cared for, and the differences in opinion as to how they are intended to be shared. For myself, I really realized the privileged position that I came from, having been born into a very strong lineage that had done a lot of work to preserve the art form. In that regard, I have a different story than Mique'l Dangeli, for example, whose community went through a great deal of loss and then did a lot of work to bring their songs and dances back. Within my family lineage, as an ongoing effect of the potlatch ban, we had not been able to practice our art form regularly, but we still had family members that maintained the knowledge and passed it forward. Part of me began to realize and question that in many ways the practice of only maintaining hereditary dances was not reflecting a lot of the changes that are currently limiting access to these practices by a good number of people. This relates to the fact that it is matrilineal, that there has been a lot of disconnection within our colonial history, that different communities have been affected differently, and that there has not always been agreement within families, so there are many reasons why the art form is becoming more and more
Dance Central November/December 2017
3
Creating Connection A conversation with Margaret Grenier
to others. If I follow a practice in a matrilineal structure —for example, I am Gitxsan on my father's side — how does that shift in my identity and my children's identity, and their connection to everything. The question
limited. It is time, I feel, to move forward when there are so many
goes to very fundamental parts of myself that have not
people that need to access our practice, and when I consider
been an easy thing to navigate, but the work in itself is a
what dance has done for me in terms of grounding my identity,
healthy way of moving those hard questions forward.
and connecting me to land and language. It also carries with it a lot of politics that I think in part are there to hold and take care
AK: Among non-indigenous communities in Vancouver
of something, but in part are also the result of the disconnection
you can observe an increasing effort to acknowledge
that we are faced with in our communities and with our history.
First Nations territory. It may still be mainly symbolic, but at least it recognizes the presence of indigenous
I don't think that without going through the challenges I went
culture in the present political framework. Different
through at that time, having to look at what I was taking for
nations are named, sometimes accurately, sometimes
granted all my life, that I really would have had the courage to
not, but I wonder if the process doesn't also, perhaps
look at other ways to create within the form. At that point, I had
involuntarily, present a notion of an overarching 'First
been directing the company for close to ten years. We were
Nations identity' that is not altogether different from
unique in our practice in that we were sharing our work in the
the way the Indian Act once expressed a presump-
form of dance 'productions', we were formalized as a dance
tion of cultural homogeneity. There are many different
company, and we had started to produce the West Coast First
ways to categorize peoples, as Non-Western 'ethnic'
Nations Dance Festival, but our focus was still on going back to
cultures, and I wonder how it is observed from within
what had been archived, and on continuing to strengthen the
indigenous communities. How do nations, families and
form in that way. I think that the changes that have taken place
individuals experience this pressure to function as an
since then have not been about letting go of anything, except
'other'?
for something that was imposed by the political environment surrounding it, but for me it has been just like any other mo-
MG: I think much of the pressure comes from our own
ment within my family’s lineage, where choices had to be made
disconnection. Like the voice I hear coming from my
as to how to continue to bring life into the work itself, trying to
father, where there isn't a long history of involvement
find answers for myself, and realizing that it was never going to
with outside cultures. For example, my grandmother
be the same answer that my parents came up with, or that my
spoke very little English, and she grew up entirely
grandmother came up with. It was something I had to answer for
within the Gitxsan political and economic structure,
myself, for the sake of my children, and it was literally that year,
even though it was affected by the potlatch ban and by
in 2010, that for the first time that we composed new songs, that
the establishment of the reserves, which would have
we choreographed new dances and that we found our own way
taken place within her lifetime. My father's generation
of creating narrative. If I look at it as an ongoing process I think
transitioned a lot; English was still his second language
the different dance productions mark a place in that process,
but he lived in a world that was primarily shaped by the
but it has never been about working toward that production, but
over framing Canadian economy and political struc-
rather about how these productions can articulate the process
ture, as it was for me, even though I am only Gitxsan on
we are going through in our connection with the art form, what
my father's side. On my mother's side I am Cree, from
it is we are trying to share with the audience and what is tak-
Gillam, Manitoba, very close to Churchill on the Hud-
ing place within us and what are we able to manifest within our
son's Bay. I grew up in Prince Rupert and the reserves
own selves. It is not an easy question to answer, because it is an
along the Skeena River, immersed in something very
ongoing conversation about how to balance that aspect against
specific. Our hereditary dances are carried in such a
how to pass things forward that I think are essential not to be
way that something that goes back even beyond what
forgotten, and also how to navigate it in a way that opens it up
we can give a date to, we can look within the stories
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Dance Central November/December 2017
continued on page 14
"It has never been about working toward a production, but rather about how these
productions can articulate the
process we are going through in our connection with the art form, what it is we are trying to share with the audience and what is taking place within us and what are we able
to manifest within our own selves." Dance Central November/December 2017
5
Dance Central The Dance Centre Scotiabank Dance Centre Level 6, 677 Davie Street Vancouver BC V6B 2G6 T 604.606.6400 F 604.606.6401 info@thedancecentre.ca www.thedancecentre.ca Dance Central is published every two months by The Dance Centre for its members and for the dance community. Opinions expressed are those of the authors and do not necessarily represent Dance Central or The Dance Centre. The editor reserves the right to edit for clarity or length, or to meet house requirements. Editor, Art Director & Layout Andreas Kahre Copy Editor Hilary Maxwell Contributors to this issue: Margaret Grenier, Andreas Kahre Photography: Chris Randle Dance Centre Board Members Chair Ingrid M. Tsui Vice Chair Josh Martin Secretary Margaret Grenier Treasurer Matthew Breech Past Chair Beau Howes, CFA Directors Carolyn Chan Eve Chang Jai Govinda Anndraya T. Luui Starr Muranko Dance Foundation Board Members Chair Linda Blankstein Secretary Anndraya T. Luui Treasurer Jennifer Chung Directors Trent Berry, Kimberley Blackwell, Praveen K. Sandhu, Janice Wells, Andrea R. Wink, Dance Centre Staff: Executive Director Mirna Zagar Programming Coordinator Raquel Alvaro Marketing Manager Heather Bray Digital Marketing Coordinator Katrina Nguyen Venue and Services Administrator Robin Naiman Development Director Sheri Urquhart Lead Technician Chengyan Boon Accountant Elyn Dobbs Member Services and Outreach Coordinator Hilary Maxwell Member Services and Development Assistant Anna Dueck The Dance Centre is BC's primary resource centre for the dance profession and the public. The activities of The Dance Centre are made possible bynumerous individuals. Many thanks to our members, volunteers, community peers, board of directors and the public for your ongoing commitment to dance in BC. Your suggestions and feedback are always welcome. The operations of The Dance Centre are supported by the Canada Council for the Arts, the Province of British Columbia, the BC Arts Council, and the City of Vancouver through the Office of Cultural Affairs.
About Dance Central A conversation with Andreas Kahre
DC: You have been editor of Dance Central since November 2011. What have you discovered during that time? AK: How diverse and at the same time interconnected the dance community in Vancouver has become, how much it is growing in representing a wide range of cultural practices and how much dance artists have developed their ability to articulate their work in both a political and aesthetic context. Compared to twenty-five years ago. It has become more self-aware, more open to interacting with a global artistic community, more political, and it has developed a sense of humor that wasn’t always in evidence. DC: How has the publication changed since you began? AK: When I took over from Eury Chang, Dance Central was a membership newsletter that featured events at Scotiabank Dance Centre, published occasional reviews and contained a bi–monthly calendar. Having grown out of the early desktop publishing era, it was built on a Quark Xpress template and was emailed to members as a printable pdf file. Publications were going through a dramatic change at the time; print publications were amalgamating or going under, the cost of printing and distribution was rising while advertisers were moving to online platforms. This was also the aftermath of a dramatic cut in provincial arts funding through gaming, and the end of the Olympic funding bubble. Dance Central was going to have to change in order to survive, and operate in a very different publishing environment. DC: What did you do? AK: Three things: We shifted Dance Central to issuu.com, from a hybrid to a pure online publication — albeit still in a printable format; Dance Central still goes through a full pre-press stage and could be put on an offset press tomorrow. Next, we shifted the calendar and notification functions to The Dance Centre’s website and email communications, which had become the vehicle that most members were using to receive news and event notifications anyway. This meant that we had no printing and distribution cost, and no advertiser-driven timeline but we also had no budget to
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Dance Central November/December 2017
pay writers, and so we shifted the mission of the publica-
DC: What is the difference between an interview and
tion: Dance Central is meant to provide a platform for dance
a conversation?
artists, curators, designers and others to reflect on their practice, and to explore questions in conversation, and in
AK: Hopefully, a conversation leaves room to explore
more depth than is possible for example in a Georgia Straight
questions that go beyond the frame of a conventional in-
interview meant to advertise an upcoming show.
terview. Some artists treat it like an interview, but many do accept the invitation to take advantage of the fact that this
DC: Do you not schedule these conversations to coincide
is not about advertising a show but to share ideas with the
with performances?
dance community of colleagues and collaborators. It was also important for us to focus on dance artists and artists
AK: Sometimes, but it is important not to let that drive us.
working in a dance environment rather than on the more
There are numerous ways to advertise events online, but
traditional role of choreographers.
few opportunities to reflect on your work. Social media is not suited to the long form, blogs tend to be soliloquies, and
DC: Why not focus on choreographers?
among (albeit virtual) print publications, we are in a unique position of not depending on advertisers.
AK: Because the traditional model of dance creation was shifting. Traditionally, choreographers have been the centre
DC: How does that change the role of a publication?
of the process, and therefore of media attention, but dance creation was becoming more collaborative; performers
AK: You gain in flexibility what you lose in revenue. Dance
formed collectives, the boundaries between movement
Central typically has about 20 pages of content. That is
and media were shifting, contact improvisation became
the equivalent of a 48-page trade magazine, which has no
an important source of the movement vocabulary, and the
option, but to remain, let’s call it ‘responsive’ in scheduling
relationship between dance and music changed. Many
and I would argue, in editorial content, to its advertisers. To
choreographers relied on performers improvising as a
prevent undue collusion, publishers preach what they call
source of movement creation, in a similar development
the separation of ‘church and state’ (an unfortunate meta-
to what had been taking place in music. Choreography
phor, given what actual goes on), but our situation allows
remains important, but so are the voices of other creators,
us to focus on the content rather than manage forty or fifty
and that is where Dance Central has an opportunity to play
advertisers. Remember that Dance Central is made by only
a useful role.
two people. DC: How did the current format develop? DC: Before Dance Central, you edited FRONT magazine (a print publication by the Western Front) for ten years. What
AK: We began by creating ‘series’ that framed the conver-
was similar, and what was different?
sations thematically, starting with an ongoing feature called Thinking Bodies, that focuses on performers who worked
AK: Like Dance Central, FRONT had no budget to pay writers,
as freelance dancers, or sometimes members of collec-
which precluded running it as a review magazine. Instead,
tives, but may not identify primarily as choreographers.
we focused on creating a print platform for original work. With Dance Central, the question was how to turn the same
Each year has also had a thematic focus: We began with
limitation into an opportunity, so instead of writing about
Legacies, since the Vancouver dance community was going
dance, we invited dance artists to talk about their work and their experiences in the context of a ‘conversation’.
continued on page 10 Dance Central November/December 2017
7
September/October 2013
May/June 2014
Dance Central
Dance Central
A Dance Centre Publication
July/August 2016
Dance Central
A Dance Centre Publication
A Dance Centre Publication
Content "I Love Dance Deeply but I also Hate It" A conversation with Lee Su-Feh Page 2
Content
From the Executive Director by Mirna Zagar
Content
Page 6
Opening The Third Space Alvin Erasga Tolentino Page 1
All Bodies Dance A conversation with Naomi Brand
Rethinking 12 Minutes Max a conversation with Claire French and Mirna Zagar
A Note from the Executive Director Mirna Zagar Page 4
Dance Centre Open House: Schedule of Events
Page 2
Notes from the Executive Director by Mirna Zagar
Page 9
Page 8
Thinking Bodies Karen Jamieson talks about her solo|soul Project
Designing Dance: A conversation with Barbara Clayden Page 10
Page 6
Outside The Bubble A conversation with Ben Brown
Page 10
Page 8
September/October 2014
Dance Central
March/April 2015
Dance Central
July/August 2015
Dance Central
A Dance Centre Publication
A Dance Centre Publication
A Dance Centre Publication
Content Content
Content
Migrant Bodies A conversation with Sammy Chien Page 2
Speaking Memory A conversation with Serge Bennathan
On Attention: A conversation with Jennifer Mascall
Pure Fracture Noam Gagnon
Page 2
Page 2
Page 8
Farewell Grant Strate by Mirna Zagar
Migrant Bodies: Final Words by Ginelle Chagnon
Undivided Colours Art and Gender Symposium Preview
Page 9
Designing Dance Natalie Purschwitz
Page 8
Moving Protocols: A conversation with Heidi Taylor
Page 12
Page 10
Page 10
March/April 2014
November/December 2014
Dance Central
March/April 2016
Dance Central
Dance Central
A Dance Centre Publication
A Dance Centre Publication
A Dance Centre Publication
Content
Content
What will we see next? A conversation with Crystal Pite Page 1
In A Certain Space A conversation with Sujit Vaidya Page 2
Dancing Our Identity An essay by Mique'l Dangeli Page 7
We Need Wood! A conversation with Sas Selfjord Page 10
EU Travellogue by Mirna Zagar Page 4
The Gathering Web Forum Page 9
Thinking Bodies A conversation with Rosario Ancer Page 10
Lola Award 2014 Page 15
8
Dance Central November/December 2017
Content Migrant Bodies A conversation with Ginelle Chagnon Page 2
Migratory Conditions Mirna Zagar Page 6
Stable Instability A conversation with Ron Stewart Page 8
Undivided Colours An excerpt by Christine Fletcher Page 12
January/February 2015
Dance Central
September/October 2017
May/June 2016
Dance Central
Dance Central
A Dance Centre Publication
A Dance Centre Publication
A Dance Centre Publication
Claiming Space
Content
Heavy Ground A conversation with Adam Hayward
Contact A conversation with Peter Bingham
Content
Page 2
Page 2
Thinking Bodies A portrait of Vanessa Goodman and Jane Osborne of The Contingency Plan Page 10
Dance in Vancouver The 2017 Schedule
Betroffenheit A conversation with Jonathon Young
Page 6
Page 2
The Power of Dance A conversation with Alvin Erasga Tolentino and Linda Blankstein
Dancing The Spirit Thinking Bodies: A conversation with Madelaine McCallum
Page 8
Page 8
January/February 2016
Dance Central
Dance Central
A Dance Centre Publication
Re-Discovery A conversation with Shay Kuebler Page 2
Page 2
Dance In Vancouver An Invitation by Mirna Zagar
Page 12
Fall Notes by Mirna Zagar
Dance Sovereignty Mique'l Dengali
Page 7
Page 8
Page 7
Coming to Stay A conversation with Helen Walkley
Boombox A conversation with Katie Lowen and Diego Romero
Page 2
Feeling Moved Pirjetta Mulari Page 8
Work. Not Practice. A conversation with Jo Leslie
Page 8
November/December 2016
Emergences Modus Operandi A conversation with David Raymond and Tiffany Tregarthen
A Dance Centre Publication
Content Made in China: A conversation with Wen Wei Wang Page 2
Cultures of Encounter by Mirna Zagar Page 9
Page 2
Page 8
Dance Central
A Dance Centre Publication
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New Aesthetics Performance Intensive 2017 A conversation with James Long
May/June 2015
Dance Central
A Dance Centre Publication
Convergences A conversation with Hong Kong Exile
Page 12
March/April/May 2017
Dance Central
Content
A Dance Centre Publication
Content
The Biting School A conversation with Arash Khakpour
Groundhog Days. A conversation with Alison Denham
Dance Central
A Dance Centre Publication
Performing Space
Content
November/December 2015
June/July/August 2017
Grounding A conversation with Marissa Wong Page 8
writingdancing A conversation with Alexa Mardon Page 10
SPLAY Justine A. Chambers Page 15
Dance Central November/December 2017
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About Dance Central A conversation with Andreas Kahre continued from page 7
through a generational shift, with several senior members
interested in interdisciplinary collaborations: Darcey Calli-
reaching ‘retirement’. We also accompanied several multi-
son, Kevin Stewart, Dancecorps (Harvey Meller and Cornelius
year projects that The Dance Centre was participating in,
Fischer-Credo), JumpStart (Lee Eisler and Nelson Gray), Karen
notably CO:LAB, Triptych and Migrant Bodies, with a series
Jamieson, Jennifer Mascall, Cheryl Prophet and Chick Snip-
of interviews and conversations. We also added Designing
per, among others. More recently, I have worked with Ame
Dance, which invites designers, photographers, composers,
Henderson and Matija Ferlin, Amber Funk Barton, and Paras
stage managers to join the conversation, and continues to
Terezakis. Perhaps the most important artistic relationship was
this day.
the collaboration with Lola McLaughlin that continued for more than ten years.
Next we began a series called Critical Movements that focused on artists whose work centred on questions of
DC: In what capacity?
aesthetics and performance theory; dance dramaturges, writers, and curators. This year we inaugurated Dance
AK: Initially as a musician, but that shifted toward set and
Pedagogies, which focuses on dancer training, and Emerg-
sound design and what would be best described as scenog-
ing Bodies, which acts as a showcase for emerging dance
raphy, which is, as I would describe it, a way of thinking, from
artists. Performing Space is centred on sited performance
a dramaturgical perspective, about space as a performative
strategies, and Other Movements continues to give room to
presence, or in more contemporary parlance, as an actant.
things that just won't fit anywhere else. In 2016, we began
Different projects required different combinations of skills, and
a series on First Nations, originally introduced by Migue’l
often the roles overlapped. Opinions differ.
Dangeli under the title Dancing Sovereignty, which will be continuing with the guidance of Margaret Grenier.
DC: You also worked with theatre companies?
DC: How and why did you become involved with dance?
AK: Yes, although the boundaries were blurring already. I am what is called an ‘artistic associate’ with Radix Theatre, I
AK: My background is in visual art and music, and in the
designed, wrote, or dramaturged seventeen of Rumble’s first
early 1980s, I began to collaborate with students in the per-
shows, I worked with Touchstone, Theatre Conspiracy, Pink
forming arts program at SFU (I was a student at UBC at the
Ink, the Electric Company, Ruby Slippers, UBC, Gateway, Rimini
time, but I was interested in interdisciplinary collaborations,
Protokoll, Marie Clements, and Horsehoes and Handgrenades,
in performance art, media, improvised and computer music
and somehow I managed to collect twenty Jessie nominations
— all the things that SFU was the place for in Vancouver at
over the years, but my bank account shows no evidence of
the time.) I attended the first choreographic seminar, mainly
that... Radix, with its perennial failure to stay in a black box has
as a percussionist, and that led to a number of personal and
been my theatrical home for the past twenty years.
professional relationships, which developed into an ongoing involvement with performing and performance artists in
DC: What interests you nowadays?
Vancouver. AK: Sound installations, sited, devised, media-based art, conDC: With whom did you work?
temporary gamelan and paper theatre. And I love to teach.
AK: I began to work with a number of performers and
DC: Did you ever dance?
choreographers that came out of the SFU dance program and were forming companies or collectives, and were
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Dance Central November/December 2017
AK: After a fashion, yes; once. In the late 80s, I was part of a
as empowerment through technology. collective called Cymbali, with Lorraine Thomson and Kenneth Newby and Michael O’Neill. Like many artists at the
DC: Any lasts words?
time, we did school show tours, with a ‘multicultural’ program that included the travels of a Balinese monkey to visit its
AK: I would like to thank all the artists who have worked
cousins across the globe, and for two years, I had to dance a
with us over the past six years, the photographers who
jig while wearing Oshkosh overalls and a rubber Chimpansee
have allowed us to use their work for the covers (we have
mask, for, as we calculated it, about 10,000 B.C. elementary
included examples from the last three years), The Dance
school students. I hope they have forgiven me.
Centre, its staff and board for their support and patience, and especially Hilary Maxwell, the sharp-eyed copy editor and de facto managing editor without whom none of this
DC: What would you like to change? AK: I observe a trend that began during the time of the 'Cultural Olympiad' and the dismantling of arts funding that coincided with it, for artists to define themselves as labourers in the 'cultural industry’. It made sense, perhaps, to represent it in this way, if only because this was terminology that politicians understood, but to my mind it collapsed the critical and diverse relationships between people, communities, and the body politic into a matter of negotiations between content providers and employers, for precarious contract labour. I am alarmed to see that that definition of artists as ‘content providers’ is currently re-emerging in the communications by Heritage Canada and the Canada Council. It misses the essential connection between all human endeavours, between process and product, between medium and message. DC: What do you think of as positive about the situation? AK: There is more awareness of our global connections, and especially in a situation like Vancouver’s absurd real estate bubble, artists are also activists. I am encouraged by the attempts made to find a critical language for dance, by the fact that the festival and ‘platform’ industry model is being augmented and subverted by other ways of engaging with a public, where we count as more than ‘bums in seats’. I think of dance as having stepped out of its conceptual and aesthetic confinements, and becoming aware of the power that embodied performance has, especially in a cultural environment that is imploding into a state of virtual disembodiment, environmental collapse and totalitarian surveillance disguised
would have been possible. Thank you!
"Compared to twenty five years ago, Vancouver's dance community has become more self-aware, more open to interacting with a global artistic community, more political, and it has developed a sense of humour that wasn’t always evident." Dance Central November/December 2017
11
"My hope, and perhaps I'm being a litt in this, is to not make compromi the work we do makes compromises, contribute to where people really r continued from page 4
themselves. For example, it is a four-hour drive from the
where we can really hear the individuality and diversity of what
ocean now, so if you are looking at stories where the
is being said. My hope, and perhaps I'm being a little stubborn
ocean shore was present, you know that that is part of
in this, is to not make compromises or feel like the work we do
a very long history. It was always important to identify
makes compromises, but that we can contribute to where people
the story that went with the song and dance, and that
really respond. On one level I think they are already feeling that
it took place in an exact location so that you could go
but on another level, they still want to water it down to a level
there. Part of knowing and being trained in the songs and
that is easier to digest, and I that is the hard part in all that has
dances was to know that location, and how you carry or
happened in this country. It is hard for everyone, not just for in-
embody landscape based on that knowledge — a knowl-
digenous people to get to that place; it evokes negative feelings, it
edge that is not just a fact, but based on how the story
evokes confrontation, it's not easy for many reasons, and not just
connects to my family's history — so I feel that there
a lack of knowledge.
was a great deal of very specific information and ways of looking at the information carried within the dance form I
AK: Although geographically it is much smaller than Canada,
was trained in. I agree that there is a lot of shifting taking
it would be absurd to speak of 'European dance', without ac-
place; people are looking at a generalized understand-
knowledging Europe's vast range of cultures, and identities.
ing in order to grapple with the diversity of indigenous
Take Bavaria; it is divergent in dialects, religions, ethnicities and
languages and cultures and practices, because there is
customs, and yet the mediatized version, packaged and collapsed
so much and we have spent decades simplifying it. So, I
into Oktoberfest kitsch, makes it appear culturally unified, as if it
feel that it is a big part of my personal mandate: To carry
belonged to a theme park. I observe something similar here, for
the uniqueness of who I am within the work that I do,
example with Asian Canadian artists, many of whom make the
to carry that voice forward, even if it is composing and
point that 'Asianness' is created by a mediatized outside gaze.
choreographing in a way of creating something new,
How does it affect the process of defining and maintaining iden-
and my hope is that as we work towards decolonization
tity in an indigenous context?
those individual voices can become stronger. MG: I imagine that some of your conversations with Mique'l must We just came back from a tour in Quebec, and you
have touched on this because it is not just media but there have
can imagine it was very hard for us not to represent the
been so many voices that have played a role in various capacities,
'whole' of Western Canada wherever we danced. People
going back in our history to the 1880s. For example, Landon King
really wanted answers, and direct translations; 'Tell me
was an artist sent in to document what was perceived as the last
the story word for word', they asked, whereas with any
recording of a disappearing culture, through paintings of different
other contemporary dance piece that is based on a
individuals. That, in a simplified example was influenced by the
Western practice we would not ask those questions, and
fact that he did not like to paint eyes, so everybody in his paint-
there would be room for interpretation and individual
ings had their eyes closed and that gave rise to a concern that
response, but because we are grappling so much with
there was some disease in our communities. I think it is just an
this level of understanding we haven't gotten to a place
example of what is important to realize, how the details of what
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Dance Central November/December 2017
tle stubborn ises, or feel like , but that we can respond."
Creating Connections A conversation with Margaret Grenier
is being written, especially when looking at an oral history and practice that is maintained in a different way, can become very dangerous. In my own family, I struggled a bit with this when I did an undergraduate degree in environmental sciences, and then graduate studies in arts education at SFU, where it was hard to bring in voices that didn't have specific 'credentials'. For example, I could not do a regular literature review for my master’s thesis, because if I had, it would have undermined what I was trying to say, and the work I was doing. I do see a change, in that the conversation has deepened, but it is by no means at a place where we aren't losing as much as we are gaining. And that's why I think it is important for the art forms to articulate something that can counter what people are expecting. That isn't necessarily easy to do, because you may not get the response you are hoping for, but regardless of what you are creating, there is an opportunity for it to push back against the generalizations. They are trying to tell you who you are, and they are telling other people who you are, and by doing that they are making us begin to define ourselves, and there is the danger: We can't all fit that, and the more we have people thinking they can't fit, we find the roots of dysfunction. It's easy when you are looking at a residential school where language is forbidden, but when you look at it in a more abstract way, the way society in general imposes certain limitations to your identity, it has a different kind of danger because it is not so clear, and it becomes internalized. From my perspective it can create a lot of harm if there isn't an opportunity to bring back complexity. AK: One curious aspect of the distinction between cultures is the division between collective and individual art forms. Western art is almost completely individualized, and where it attempts to be inclusive, it often struggles, and it struggles to embrace collective cultural forms, which by their nature undermine the idea of an individual artistic creator, ownership, and that make concepts such as protocol difficult to understand. How do you experience that?
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Creating Connections A conversation with Margaret Grenier
it as that when I was young; I just danced with my family and community and I never thought of that until I started to take a leading role with the Dancers of Damelahamid that I realized what a choice that was. I also realized why there continues to be a lot of deep–seated tension around those choices, because
MG: I think you have to navigate your way as an individual
there are individuals who really feel that that was a mistake,
within a collective. You have to do that in a way that isn't too
that we need something pure to pass forward, and the only
destructive for yourself, so while it is important to uphold
way to keep it pure is not to expose it, and to maintain it in a
certain challenges you also have to be part of something
very closely guarded way. I appreciate why that is being said,
bigger than yourself that supports you. I had a very beauti-
but I also appreciate that if it hadn't been for the decision to
ful encounter with an elder, when we did a tour of BC two
perform for audiences that didn’t always understand what they
years ago. She was from Nelson, and she met with me be-
were seeing — which then made various types of appropria-
fore the performance and one of the things she said to me
tion possible — if that hadn't happened, I truly believe that a lot
was: 'go where you are loved', and that in many ways an-
more loss would have taken place, and we wouldn’t neces-
swers that we need something bigger. If that is detrimental
sarily be able to connect the generations in the way we have
to us, I think it isn't a good thing. I was trained to think that
been able to. There would have been a generational gap. It was
the whole reason why we have our oral history that we have
a risk, but a risk worth taking. I don't ever think that I have the
recorded through song and dance, was because that in the
correct answers to those questions, because it is true that you
Gitxsan culture is where song and dance are integral to the
make yourself vulnerable, and you open up a lot that you could
historical and political frame, and it’s our way of holding and
very easily not have to deal with if you didn't do performances,
sharing and connecting ourselves to our territory as well as
and I think we are all finding ways to navigate through that;
to our community. The point is to help us navigate life in a
communities have private dances and public dances, and that
way that supports and strengthens us as a community. The
is becoming a more common approach. It is the same when
hard part is that there can be a lot of oppressiveness and
we do workshops. I do workshops to deepen the understand-
lateral violence. When you look towards protocol or really
ing of what I am doing but it is very difficult to navigate when
clarifying identity in a bigger sense when there has been so
people feel like 'Oh, I have learned West Coast dance and I can
much loss, it can be really hard, but I think that if we look
do whatever I want with that'. For myself it is like any relation-
at the essence of things we can find the place that actually
ship: If you have a superficial relationship, there will be mis-
nurtures our community, that strengthens our languages,
takes, and misunderstandings, but if you deepen it, although
that strengthens who we are. That, to me, is the point of it
that can take a lot of time, you begin to understand what one
all, and the reason for me to do my part to help that.
another is saying in a different way, and that to me is what performing for audiences is about: It is about offering something
AK: That brings up a question of what we call 'audience', in
that can deepen our relationship so we can overcome some
the context of a form that developed in a community, where
of the things that in my heart I don't think we can overcome by
everybody was a participant; where 'presentation' includes
keeping them to ourselves. I completely recognize that is my
the handing on and teaching people about something es-
own opinion and that it is not shared by everyone, but I feel it
sential to their own culture. Is there a way of making the
is important. I don’t think we will move past some of the things
transition between community performance and audience
that need to be healed unless we do that work, and we are just
performance?
going to pass on to the next generation the same problems if we don’t try to do our part.
MG: When I was growing up I didn't realize the decisions that were being made within my family, where the practice
AK: Speaking with Mique'l Dangeli, I was struck by the strength
started coming back in the 1960s. From my perspective
of her connections in a 'vertical' axis, all the way from Alaska to
now, I understand the importance and why the choice was
the Columbia river bar. That 'Cascadian' connection appears to
made to perform our songs and dances, but I didn't think of
be much more important than the border that runs along the 49th parallel. How do you situate yourself geographically?
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Dance Central November/December 2017
"It is time, I feel, to move forward when there are so many people that need to access our practice, and when I consider what dance has done for me in terms of grounding my identity, and connecting me to land and language." and how things are different here, but I also recognize that MG: For me the Coastal identity is very strong. There is a
these other places are very much part of me and the more
big division that takes place once you go to the other side
we can bridge them, the healthier we will be. For example,
of the mountains, and being raised within a hereditary
when we were in Quebec, there was a lot of surprise around
lineage in a Northern community in BC, where there are no
acknowledgment of traditional territory, which has become
pow-wows, it is still very much an overarching presence
somewhat common practice here. People are still learning
of the West Coast. It is a bit different here in Vancouver,
but it is not a foreign concept in BC. In Quebec there were a
but not in the North. For me, because as an individual I also
lot of questions by presenters and audiences to explain what
have a shared Cree heritage through my mother, I think
that is all about. To me that was very surprising. I thought
that I began to become especially aware of that. I was
'How do you not acknowledge the indigenous territory you
raised with personal connections to my Cree family, but
are on, how is that not just integral to your awareness?' I was
I didn't have that strong a connection to Cree language.
used to questions about how you properly do an acknowl-
I have only been to Churchill once, because when I was
edgment, but here people asked me to explain why. That is
studying in Montreal I had an opportunity to do field stud-
something I can see we have gained, and even if is a practice
ies there, I but I also realize that there is so much in me that
that comes from the West, it has something to contribute to
is shaped by my mother's lineage. Our company has done
the conversation of artists in Quebec and elsewhere. I really
a lot of work to find approaches that strengthen what we
hope we won’t always have such a strong divide.
are by connecting with others, and that is also part of my personal process. Questions like why by being on the West
AK: In the European context it is futile to acknowledge ter-
Coast, was my connection to the Cree side of my family so
ritory because the three great migrations have completely
limited, and how does that get expressed in the work that
shifted people and their territories. Very few Central Euro-
I do? It is very much part of who I am, so I think that with
pean cultures have been in the same place for more than
my unique family makeup I certainly experience more of
twenty-five generations, and their departure and arrival was
a connection to other practices in Canada, especially with
marked by territorial conflict. I wanted to ask you about the
Cree being such a big nation. I also have a lot of connec-
term 'company' which connotes a certain way of represent-
tions with South America through one of the dancers, Starr
ing your identity, and how to create a cultural 'product'. How
Muranko who has been with me since the very beginning
does indigenous identity translate into the construct we call a
of our formalizing the company. She is with Raven Spirit
'company'?
Dance, and having her as a part of the Damelahamid family has also really strengthened my connection and under-
MG: For me that has also been an interesting part of the
standing that goes all the way from Alaska to how my
process, because it is like the example of territory. The way
learning has connected me to the indigenous communities
I was trained was that our connection to land and territory
as far South as Cusco. There is something very solid here
is as stewards. The difficult part of the process I have seen
on the West Coast, and I know from my connections to
within allocating land and territory through land title, is taking
other artists that people are aware of West Coast politics
a foreign concept of a map and applying it to the concept of
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"If you have a superficial relationship, there will be mistakes, and misunderstandings,
but if you deepen it, although that can take a lot of time, you begin to understand what one another is saying in a different way, and
that to me is what performing for audiences is about:
It is about offering something that can deepen our relationship so we can overcome some of the things that in my heart I don't think we can overcome by keeping them to ourselves." 16
Dance Central November/December 2017
stewardship which does allow for overlap in a very different way that isn't dismissive of authority. If you can't draw a map, being a steward is not the same as saying this parcel of land 'belongs' to someone, and I think there has been a similar process for me in navigating a lot of the terminology involved in formalizing as a company, because I have learned how to articulate what we do in a way that can translate to grant writing, to communication with theatres and other artists, but it doesn’t necessarily change because the Dancers of Damelahamid are family based. We don’t contract dancers the way a great number of artists do. When you dance with us you are basically being adopted into something and there is an expected relationship that goes beyond 'I am going to do these tour dates with you', and that is hard, because the structure of everything right now supports companies that function somewhat differently. We spent fifteen years creating a society, a board, a registered charity. We have a staff, we have figured our names of our staff and the Festival. Finally, the Canada Council's new model says that we can be selfdetermining, but it would be nice if that had happened fifteen
Creating Connections A conversation with Margaret Grenier years ago, because these terms aren't truly the right words to
we had already been looking for a way to bring the festival
describe what is taking place; what I do as a choreographer is
back for five years. I wasn't coming to it with a full under-
not necessarily based on the same approach and methodol-
standing of how other arts organizations operate festivals,
ogy that the word normally encompasses, and that's not just
but our festival has maintained those core values in that it is
true for me, but certainly in speaking to the coming together
about serving the community of indigenous artists. We have
among cultural differences, and that is something I have been
many artists whose practices are for the most part to present
advocating. For the most part, I have found clarity, but when
songs and dances that they share again and again. They cre-
my parents decided to bring our practice into a performa-
ate new songs and dances as well, but for the most part you
tive space we learned how to make that fit, but there are also
see the same songs and dances coming back to the festival
the parts that are non–changeable. You just figure out how to
year after year, and for them that is about what the gathering
make it all work.
does for the artists, and for the audience. It's also about what the festival does for the young people, who have an oppor-
AK: Speaking of words, what does 'Damelahamid' mean?
tunity to be part of these practices, and now there is also an opportunity to share the art form in slightly different ways for
MG: Damelahamid is the name of the place of our original
those who aren't doing the same songs and dances. It is also
cities. It goes back to an origin story — not a creation story,
an opportunity for us to bring in a wider community; even
but the origin of Damelahamid of the Gitxsan, and within that
though it is the Coastal First Nations Dance Festival, we do
story there were survivors of a catastrophic event, and when
our best to bring in artists from different parts of Canada and
they reallocated the city what they established was Damela-
to connect with indigenous artists from other communities.
hamid, which means paradise. For me, it is an encompassing
For me, in bringing these voices together, we are all learn-
term that is not specific to lineage, but it is very specific to my
ing something, and I think that resonates with people from
identity as a Gitxsan, but as with all things, you will hear differ-
everywhere. It's not just about showcasing new work; it's a
ent things as to what it means.
different festival!
AK: Lastly, I am curious about how you use the term 'festival'.
AK: Thank you!
Festivals have become the dominant form of presenting art, in Canada and internationally, even if some artists point out that the presentational format of the festival tends to favour product over process disappears, but of course it is easier to market and to present work in that context. How do you manage the idea of a festival? MG: I think for us our festival is very unique. There are two reasons we started the Coastal First Nations Dance Festival: One was because when I was growing up my parents had the festival they ran from the 1960s to the 1980s in Prince Rupert, and it was a very big part of what brought community together. I wanted to do something that would bring that back and to offer a place for young people to experience what I grew up with. The second reason was because — and that is still the case, but not as much — there was no place for indigenous coastal dance within other venues for dance presentation. It started in 2008 because of the Cultural Olympiad, but by then Dance Central November/December 2017
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November/December 2017