Outfest Artist to Artist Conversation: Intersex Bodily Autonomy feat

Outfest Artist to Artist Conversation INTERSEX BODILY AUTONOMY

feat. Pidgeon Pagonis and River Gallo

Intersex representations matters. The 6TH annual Outfest Los Angeles Trans, Nonbinary & Intersex Summit took place in West Hollywood, California, on July 23, 2022. This incredible event showcased work from two brilliant intersex artists— River Gallo and Pidgeon Pagonis—and brought them together for a conversation about intersex visibility, artistry, and storytelling.

RIVER GALLO I wanted to say welcome. It is the sixth annual Trans, Nonbinary Summit, but it’s the first annual Trans, Nonbinary and Intersex Summit.

PIDGEON PAGONIS So good.

GALLO Pidge, it’s so moving actually that you’ve come because the reason I and many people in kind of like this post-social media era, intersex culture and community have found out they were intersex through your videos and through your Buzzfeed video. That, you know, and all the content that you put out. Like, because of you, I mean, I stand on your shoulders, and- don’t cry! Okay. But no, really I mean, you are for so many of us a pioneer in the whole movement. And so that bears saying. A lot of my work in film and starting to identify as an intersex filmmaker and being intersex came from the work that you did. So thank you for that.

PAGONIS You’re so welcome. GALLO What are you thinking right now? Pagonis: I’m thinking about, what am I thinking about, y’all? Oh, here, I’ll tell you what I’m thinking about. I’m thinking about abortion.

GALLO Really?

PAGONIS Yeah. Okay. So let me tell you the story about me. About a month ago, you said it was, when the Roe v. Wade got overturned. I was like bodily autonomy? I don’t know her. Who is she? I was, I was just like, duh, like it was so normal to me to have to see somebody not have bodily autonomy, or to see the state say you don’t have bodily autonomy. And I think that’s fucked up that that was normal to me, and that I expected it.

PAGONIS It was kind of like a moment where someone in the (previously screened) film where the screen said something, like –

GALLO They said, it was in the content warning before the abortion film, where one

PIDGEON PAGONIS RIVER GALLO

of the filmmakers or producers said “Nobody understands bodily autonomy like trans people.” And Pidge and I looked at ourselves like, well, intersex people could have a thing or two to say about that.

PAGONIS So we both looked-

GALLO Not to play, not to play –

PAGONIS Not to play oppression Olympics, you know?

GALLO No, no, no.

PAGONIS But no, for real though, but there was this moment we were sitting right there and we had, we just looked at each other. It was like, yeah, we, we understand. So I think this conversation around abortion… Here’s what I want to say. Anybody know the rapper Noname? So what does Noname say? “Everything is everything.” And I know that, like other people say that too, like Lauryn Hill and others. But what I was thinking about is when everything is everything, okay? If we can understand that, then if everything gets bodily autonomy, like intersex people, trans people, people who need abortions, then everything is good. The net benefit increases. But when everything doesn’t get autonomy, doesn’t have good things, has pain, has trauma, has violence, that everything is bad and there’s a net negative. So I’ve just been thinking a lot about solutions, and my old way of getting to solutions, which was like “Let’s go to the hospital and make them pay.” And “Let’s protest and let’s do this and let’s do that,” which I still love and I really want other people to do. But I’m also thinking about what are root causes and what are root solutions. And I think a lot about violence, ’cause like what happens to intersex people, what happens to trans people when they’re denied bodily autonomy? What happens to people that need abortions? When they’re denied those, it is an act of violence. And why does violence happen? I live in Chicago, I’m born and raised there and I still live there. 36 years. You’ve probably heard about

us in the media. Probably not good things. You know, sometimes. I mean we do have really good things, but you – the media sometimes –

GALLO Good hot dog scene, right?

PAGONIS We have good hot dogs. We have good food. Come by. I’ll give you a tour of the food places. I love food. But I’ve been thinking a lot. Like the night before I came here, there was a shooting. I could hear it, a lot of shots. And then I went to wake up. I woke up and heard about another shooting that I slept through also just a few blocks away.And I’m like thinking about violence, you know, there’s an onslaught of violence in our media, in our consciousness, around us. To intersex people, to trans people, to nonbinary people, to Black people to brown people, disabled folks, etc. And I’m like, why? And I see it, I see it in children.When kids are not treated right, experience trauma, not getting enough love. Basically what I’m trying to say is we need to heal. And when people get healed, everything is everything. Everything gets better. And I don’t know how to get to the healing. I just know that a lot of us need it.

GALLO Yeah. Yeah. I’ve been working on this thing throughout this whole year processing this breakup that I had. And, and sometimes I get so, um… self-obsessed with my own, like, sadness and heartbreak. But like seeing it up here, I was like, oh my God, my intersex heartbreak matters. The way I, as an intersex person relate to my relationships, to my love to other people and how I process that into art. Even if I just look like a Lana Del Rey wannabe, which I’ll take. Like, it matters! It matters in the sense of like, she could never.

PAGONIS She could never!

GALLO No! Love her, love her, but she could never. But for intersex people, the underlayment of invisibility is really prominent. So much so that like, I often posit the question of “What is intersex culture?” Like, I don’t know, because it doesn’t really exist, but it’s happening right now. Like, you know, with this and us here. I just think about, what does it mean to transition from invisible to visible?

PAGONIS From myth to real as fuck.

GALLO And also there’s us, two intersex people on stage right now in Los Angeles.

PAGONIS Yeah, on this side of the country! Cause that’s the other side of the spectrum!

GALLO Hollywood, baby!

SPEAKER BIOS: PIDGEON PAGONIS is a filmmaker, consultant, and activist for the intersex community as well as other marginalized communities. They were one of nine LGBT artists honored as an Obama White House Champion of Change in 2015. They were also one of "30 Under 30" honored by the Windy City Times in 2013. They were also featured on the cover of National Geographic’s “Gender Revolution” special issue. pid.ge/

RIVER GALLO (they/them) is a GLAAD awardwinning Salvadoran-American filmmaker, actor, writer, model and intersex activist from New Jersey. They are a recipient of the 2019 GLAAD Media Rising Star Award, the 2020 Ryan Murphy HALF Initiative for television directing, a 2021 Berlinale Talent fellow, and was selected as part of the inaugural Sundance Institute Trans Possibilities Intensive. River’s work explores the dynamics of personal and confessionary storytelling, and media’s ability to transcend human consciousness via re-envisioning underrepresented narratives. rivergallo.com

THIS Q&A WAS EDITED FOR CONTENT; TO ACCESS THE FULL TRANSCRIPT AND WATCH THE IG LIVE REPLAY SCAN THIS