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TwoMorrows Publishing Raleigh, North Carolina
COLLECTORS’ ITEM CLASSICS Representing features from Alter Ego #160, 161, and #170, plus new material Edited by Roy Thomas
Above: The art of the oft-wonderful Steve Ditko first drew the notice of 19-year-old Roy Thomas with the debut of “Captain Atom” in Charlton’s Space Adventures #33 (March 1960), 2½ years before Amazing Fantasy #15, in stories written by co-creator Joe Gill. This splash panel and the origin story depicted Cap mostly in shades of blue—though on the cover his outfit was red and yellow, which would supersede the former hues in early future issues. Years later, after a costume change, the hero was purchased by DC and has been around ever since. Reproduced from DC’s 2004 hardcover The Action Heroes Archives, Vol. 1. [TM & © DC Comics.]
New material compiled, designed, and edited by Roy Thomas, John Morrow & Shane Foley
Original issues’ credits: Associate Editors Bill Schelly Jim Amash Design & Layout Christopher Day FCA Editor P.C. Hamerlinck J.T. Go (Assoc. Editor) Comic Crypt Editor Michael T. Gilbert Editorial Honor Roll Jerry G. Bails (founder) Ronn Foss, Biljo White Mike Friedrich Proofreaders Rob Smentek William J. Dowlding #160 Cover Artist Steve Ditko #161 & #170 Cover Artist Jack Kirby Cover Colorists Glenn Whitmore Tom Ziuko
TwoMorrows Publishing 10407 Bedfordtown Drive Raleigh, NC 27614 919-449-0344 www.twomorrows.com ISBN 978-1-60549-116-5 First printing, January 2023 Printed in China
Alter Ego Collectors’ Item Classics © 2023 Roy Thomas and TwoMorrows Publishing. All rights reserved. No portion of this publication, except for limited review use, may be reproduced in any manner without express permission. All quotes and image reproductions are © the respective owners, and are used here for historical presentation, journalistic commentary, and scholarly analysis. All reprinted material is © the respective authors, as detailed in the original issues of Alter Ego magazine (#160, 161, and 170). All characters shown are TM & © their respective owners, as shown next to each illustration. Special thanks to these contributors to the original issues: Paul Allen Heidi Amash Ger Apeldoorn Roger Armstrong David Armstrong Richard Arndt Bob Bailey Josh Baker J. Ballmann Nancy Bardeen Mike W. Barr Robert Barrett Michael Barrier Alberto Becattini Al Bigley Bill Black Jon Bolerjack Chris Boyko Ricky Terry Brisacque Julia Brown-Bernstein Bernie & Lucille Bubnis Bernie Bubnis Bart Bush Aaron Caplan Nick Caputo John Cimino Shaun Clancy Pierre Comtois Jon Cornell Chet Cox
Brian Cremins Brian Cronin Mark Ellis Jim Engel Steve Englehart Austin English Mark Evanier Justin Fairfax John Fishel Shane Foley Ron Frantz Stephan Friedt Janet Gilbert Karen Green Walt Grogan Roberto Guedes Clizia Gussoni Bruce Guthrie Dan Hagen Mark Halperin Carole Hemingway Robert Higgerson Michael Hill Roger Hill Rand Hoppe Sean Howe Mike Howell Richard Howell Tony Isabella Eric Jansen William B. Jones Brian Kane James Kealy Jim Kealy
Rob Kirby David Anthony Kraft Tom Kraft Robert Landau Paul Levitz Mark Lewis Larry Lieber Alan Light Jean-Marc Lofficier Art Lortie Jim Ludwig Russ Maheras Manny Maris Doug Martin John McShane Robert Menzies Will Meugniot Mike Mikulosky Mike Mikulovsky Brian K. Morris Frank Motler Will Murray Jack Kirby Museum Joe Musich Eric Nolen-Weathington Peter Normanton Jake Oster Barry Pearl John Pierce Bud Plant Paul Power Marshall Ramsey Warren Reece Gordon Robson
Bob Rozakis Rich Rubenfeld Randy Sargent David Saunders Jim Shooter Robin Snyder J. David Spurlock Bryan Stroud Benedikt Taschen Dann Thomas Terry A. Thomas Stephen Tice Mike Tiefenbacher Mort Todd Mike Tuohey Michael Uslan James Van Hise Dr. Michael J. Vassallo Marco Tulio Vilela Mark Voger Mike Vosburg Ray Wergan Nyla White Qiana Whitted Jay Willson Marv Wolfman Andy Yanchus Craig Yoe Yocitrus DitkoCultist.com (blog) Four Color Shadows (blog) Comic Book Plus (website) Grand Comics Database (website) Heritage Auctions (website)
TABLE OF CONTENTS ALTER EGO #160: The Amazing Steve Ditko Issue Writer/Editorial: Steve D., We Hardly Knew Ye! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 Steve Ditko: A Life In Comics . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 A brief bird’s-eye view of a remarkable artist—and storyteller—by Nick Caputo.
Steve’s Secret . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28 Paul Levitz remembers collaborating with—and knowing—Steve Ditko
Steve Ditko Interview—1968 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 29 Mike & Richard Howell and Mark Canterbury, from the pages of Marvel Main #4.
“A Very Mysterious Character” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 35 An essay on Ditko by Yancy Streeter Barry Pearl.
A Life Lived On His Own Terms . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 39 Bernie Bubnis tells of his personal encounters with Spider-Man’s co-creator, 1962-2017.
Two Visits to Steve Ditko’s Studio/Sanctum Sanctorum . . . . . . . . . . . . 47 Russ Maheras on meeting the elusive artist.
Steve Ditko . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 55 Craig Yoe on Ditko, himself, and the Muppets.
Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt! First Love . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 57 Michael T. Gilbert examines the very first art and stories by the great Steve Ditko.
NEW! Mark Ditko Interview . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 64 Steve Ditko’s nephew speaks to Alex Grand.
FCA [Fawcett Collectors Of America] #219 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 83 P.C. Hamerlinck presents Brian Cremins’ look at Ditko in This Magazine Is Haunted.
ALTER EGO #161: The Astounding Stan Lee Issue Writer/Editorial: The Last Gathering . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 93 Guest editorial by John Cimino, about Roy T. & himself visiting Stan on Nov. 10, 2018.
An Interview With Stan Lee – Conducted On-Air By Carole Hemingway . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 95 In 1975, junketing to plug a book, Stan had a great time with one talk-radio lady.
Tributes To A Titan . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 111 Marvel minions Thomas, Wolfman, Shooter, Isabella, Kraft, & Englehart on Stan Lee.
Stan Lee & Moebius . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 132 Jean-Marc Lofficier on bringing two legends together to produce Silver Surfer: Parable.
Stan Lee, Al Landau, & The Transworld Connection . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 138 Rob Kirby spotlights the man who succeeded Stan as president of Marvel Comics.
Comic Fandom Archive: My (Admittedly Minor) Encounters With Stan Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 148 Bill Schelly showcases his few (but meaningful) contacts with The Man.
NEW! Stan Lee In 1968 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 153 A vintage interview for Rutgers University’s radio station.
FCA [Fawcett Collectors Of America] #220 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 162 P.C. Hamerlinck presents a multitude of Fawcett collectors—remembering Stan Lee!
ALTER EGO #170: The Fantastic Jack Kirby Issue Writer/Editorial: A Jack For All Seasons . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 172 The Secret Kirby Origin Of Iron Man . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 173 Will Murray on how Kirby, Heck, Lee—& even Ditko—shaped Ol’ Shellhead in the 1960s.
Jack Kirby & The Early-1960s Fanzines . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 185 The ultimate Marvel artist in the Golden Age of Comic Fandom, compiled by Aaron Caplan.
Not Stan Lee’s Soapbox, But Stan Lee’s Jack-In-The-Box! . . . . . . . . . 191 The Man talks about The King, 1961-2014—as gathered by Barry Pearl, with Nick Caputo.
The Top 10 Jack Kirby Marvel Slugfests (1961-1970) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 203 Fantastic Four, Hulk, Thor, Captain America—even Spider-Man—selected by John Cimino.
NEW! Jack Kirby 1976 Interview . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 209 Peter Smith quizzes Kirby for a college dissertation.
NEW! Discovering Kirby In The ’60s! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 215 Shane Foley takes us on a dynamic trip down Memory Lane.
“The Marvel Age Of Comics Started On September 30, 1972!” . . . . . . . . 218 That’s definitely true—if you were in the UK and hanging around with Robert Menzies.
From Jasper Sitwell To Houseroy—& Back Again! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 225 Roy Thomas on being a Kirby fan, colleague, and foil, from 1947 till last week!
From The Tomb: The Jack Kirby Macabre . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 235 On his own or with Simon or Lee—Peter Normanton salutes Kirby as a master of horror!
Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt!: Simon & Kirby’s Recycled Masterpieces . . . 241 Jack & Joe tried never to waste a drawing—and so does Michael T. Gilbert.
FCA [Fawcett Collectors Of America] #229 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 247 P.C. Hamerlinck presents Mark Lewis presenting Kirby’s Captain Marvel & Mr. Scarlet!
Above: Since it was Benjamin J. Grimm who made Ye Ed fall in love with The Fantastic Four and Stan Lee’s writing (I already was a Jack Kirby art fan since the age of five or so) in that Nov. 1961-cover-dated #1, Roy T. figured there was no better illustration for this page than the world’s first full frontal look at the guy Stan would soon dub “the ever-lovin’ blue-eyed Thing.” Inks by George Klein, if Dr. Michael J. Vassallo’s researches are correct—and they probably are! Reproduced from Roy’s bound volume. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Above: One of the great (and last) co-creations of the deservedly legendary Joe Simon & Jack Kirby team was the hero of Bullseye #1 (July-Aug. 1954), who began life at the pair’s own doomed Mainline imprint, but whose final two issues were published by Charlton after Mainline went under. Bullseye and Boys’ Ranch are rightfully considered classic Western comics of the late Golden Age. [TM & © Estates of Joe Simon & Jack Kirby.]
Alter Ego #160 writer/editorial
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Steve D., We Hardly Knew Ye!
knew Steve Ditko—and yet I didn’t ever know him, not really.
As I’ve often recounted, I first encountered Steve at the Marvel offices at 625 Madison Avenue in Manhattan. I can’t swear that I recall the exact occasion of that initial meeting, but it was almost certainly sometime during July of 1965, in the first week or three after I went to work for Stan Lee and Marvel Comics. Even before that, however, production manager Sol Brodsky, who was great about showing me the ropes and telling me anything that Stan would want him to tell me—and absolutely nothing that Stan wouldn’t want him to tell me—took me aside and explained to me that Stan and Steve “don’t speak to each other anymore.” ’Sfunny… I don’t specifically recalling meeting Ditko himself, but I very clearly recall Sol filling me in concerning the odd situation that then existed between the company’s editor and main writer and the artist/plotter of Amazing Spider-Man and Strange Tales’ “Doctor Strange”! I learned no more, I recall, than that this impasse had come about because Stan and Steve had found they were arguing more and more about stories and the direction of the Spider-Man series. It never occurred to me to ask whose idea the no-speak situation had been; but of course, common sense dictated that it had to have been Stan’s decision. As editor, he was technically Ditko’s superior. Years later, in writings for his friend and partner Robin Snyder’s newsletter The Comics!, the artist confirmed that obvious assumption. And indeed, for pretty much the remainder of 1965, I witnessed that four-color version of a restraining order in operation. From time to time, Ditko would walk into Sol’s production office, which I shared with him and secretary Flo Steinberg—I don’t recall if there was any special day of the week that he was more likely to pop in, like Jack Kirby on Fridays, but I doubt it. It was pretty much dependent, I think, on when he finished either the pencils or inks for a particular story—or perhaps when Sol (or Flo) phoned to tell him that penciled, Stan-scripted pages had come back from a letterer so he could come pick them up and ink them. I’m pretty sure pages were rarely if ever mailed directly to his studio by Artie Simek or Sam Rosen, let alone by Stan or Sol. I don’t remember many of my brief conversations with Steve at the office (really, they were usually just a “hello/goodbye” kind of thing), but I do know that he seemed friendly and distant at the same time, so I never tried to push. I had kind feelings toward him, of course, not just because I had been an admirer of his artwork ever since he’d started drawing “Captain Atom” for Charlton half a decade before (and even more so because of Spider-Man), but because after I published my initial issue of the first volume of Alter Ego (#7, Fall of ’64), he’d sent me, totally unsolicited and unexpected, an ornate black-&-white cartoon. It depicted a sort of hybrid pencil & brush (wearing glasses) transforming over what amounted to a 10-panel horizontal page to Peter Parker to Spidey to Aunt May to Dr. Strange to Jonah Jameson to an ink bottle—which in the next panel had tipped over and spilled ink, so that little pawprints (from some unknown, invisible critter) led to Ditko’s signature and a pile of letters that contained most of the vowels and consonants of his name—followed (after a scribbled “or,”) by an ink blob. The copy, running between the panels—well, you can read that on the facing page, in a reprinting of that sheet, which has been specially colored (for the first time I can recall) for this issue of A/E by Randy Sargent.
Five Ditko artistic creations—in a cartoon sequence—and somehow I managed to let someone talk me out of it, decades ago, in a trade that was surely the worst idea I had since I sold my spare copy of Fantastic Four #1 for half a buck. I do recall one occasion, at least the second or third time he’d dropped by Marvel after I started work there, having him say to me as he was about to leave that he’d be back with another story soon. I smiled and joshed, “So there’s gonna be another one, huh?” or words to that effect. After he had departed, Sol called me over and said to me in a hushed voice that I should be very careful about saying such things to “Steve” (he never called him “Ditko,” even when he wasn’t there). When I professed my puzzlement, Sol explained his reasoning: “A guy like him”—whatever that meant— might get halfway back to his studio and suddenly wonder, “What did he mean by that? Does he know something I don’t?” Somehow, the notion that Steve Ditko might be worried that Stan Lee or Marvel was going to fire him just didn’t compute with me, but I recall watching my words more carefully the remaining time or two he came in after that day. Anyway, I never made any attempt to see Steve socially or visit him at his office—I sensed he wouldn’t have appreciated it; and besides, I was totally wrapped up in the demands and delights of my new job as first “staff writer,” then “editorial assistant,” at Marvel. The next memory I have is of Steve coming in one day to drop off and/or pick up pages from Sol, breezing in and out as usual while Stan, utilizing some kind of radar sense that would’ve made Daredevil envious, as usual managed to remain in his office until the artist had left, so that in all my life I never saw the two of them together. As my wife Dann likes to point out to me, as far as I knew, they could’ve been one and the same person, leading some kind of perverse double life! But on this occasion, I quickly learned—after Stan did, from Sol—that Ditko was quitting, that he’d informed Sol he would complete the “Spider-Man” and “Doctor Strange” stories on which he was currently working, and that would be it for him and Marvel. Apparently he gave no particular reason that day, or any other time, to either Sol or Stan, as to why he was quitting. (I knew it wasn’t over a page rate, since Sol had at that time, on his desk, a memo he had intended to mention to Steve that gave him a $5 a page raise, not a totally inconsiderable sum in those days. It was probably a 10% increase or thereabouts.) Stan, for his part, seemed genuinely sorry, though not sorely distressed, at this turn of events, but it couldn’t have been totally unexpected, given the prelude. Over the next few days he moved John Romita over from drawing Daredevil to drawing Spider-Man, and within a few days the two of them were spiritedly plotting away—not just the next issue or two, but the general flow of events for several months to come, with me called into Stan’s office to observe and take notes, for the benefit of both gents. My next encounter with Steve came some weeks later—I don’t remember how many—at a housewarming party thrown by my erstwhile Lower East Side roommate Dave Kaler (then writing for Charlton, after I had recommended him to new editor Dick Giordano) at his new Upper West Side digs. Steve was there, probably since Dave was currently scripting the new Blue Beetle comic which Ditko was illustrating, and I remember Steve and me winding up sitting side by side on a sofa at some point. The only thing I recall clearly was finally summoning up the nerve to ask him why he’d left Marvel—I assured him I wasn’t speaking for
“Steve D., We Hardly Knew Ye!”
[Characters TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.; other art © Estate of Steve Ditko.]
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Stan, and wouldn’t even repeat his answer to Stan if he didn’t want me to. (That’s a promise I’m not sure I’d have been able to keep, but I meant it when I said it, so I’d like to think I would have.) Steve replied, “Well, you know, when a guy’s working against you…” and then his voice kind of trailed off and he never finished his sentence. I felt it best not to pursue the matter, and soon moved on to talk to others. Colleagues like Flo Steinberg, Gary Friedrich, and Denny O’Neil, among others, were also present that evening. Fast forward at least three or four years, and I happened to run into Steve on E. 86th Street, where I’d moved in late 1968 with my new bride Jeanie. We were throwing a party in a few days, so I spontaneously invited him, and he accepted. He turned up, though I recall nothing else about his being there. For some reason I feel that may have been the same night and party at which DC writer Mike Friedrich suggested to Denny and me that, as current writers of Justice League of America and The Avengers, we should find a way to do a surreptitious crossover between our two groups… which led to my creating and designing the Squadron Sinister, forerunners of the visually identical Squadron Supreme. But Steve had nothing to do with any of that. I sincerely believe that was the last time I ever saw Steve Ditko, although we did exchange brief letters from time to time, always at my initiation. When I revived Alter Ego at the end of the 1990s, I managed, through the good offices of his friend Robin Snyder, to gain permission to reprint the piece he’d written on his memories of working with Stan on the creation of “Spider-Man” in 1962, and even to reprint his drawing of what he recalled Jack Kirby’s earlier version of the web-spinner’s costume as looking like. Other than that, however, my few attempts to communicate him were less successful. When he and I worked together on the Secret City Saga mini-series for Topps Comics in the early ’90s,
utilizing concepts devised by Kirby, I wrote him a letter asking if I could possibly buy a page of original artwork from the series as a souvenir. I received a rather curt, handwritten reply turning me down and stating that “I’d prefer not to get into that market,” whatever that meant. I took the hint, though I may have attempted (unsuccessfully) from time to time through Robin to get permission to reprint something of his that had run in The Comics! I’ll confess that little of Steve Ditko’s post-1960s-Marvel work has any special appeal for me, though he remained an interesting and individualistic artist to the very end in the middle of last year. Beware The Creeper and The Hawk and The Dove seemed to me like pale echoes of Amazing Spider-Man, although naturally I purchased them and somewhat admired the art. His later mainstream efforts from “Starman” to Shade the Changing Man to Speedball had even less appeal to me, and I doubt that I bothered to buy every issue. Still, I remain convinced that his rendering of Amazing Spider-Man was the most important Marvel comic ever that hadn’t been penciled by Jack Kirby. I recall, a couple of decades ago now, when Stan had been wrapped up in a lawsuit with Marvel over the Spider-Man movie money, I suggested to him that if he won a big settlement, it would be a great gesture to offer some of the dough to Ditko. Stan brushed that aside; he never saw himself and Ditko as joined at the hip as creators of the arachnid. And, despite his oft-reprinted letter in which he acknowledged Steve as the “co-creator” of Spider-Man, it was clear to me, and probably to most people, that he didn’t really mean it. That was something I always disagreed with Stan about, just as much as I take umbrage at Ditko saying, in a piece reprinted in this very issue, that he considered Stan merely the “dialoguer” of Spider-Man. Even after Steve took over full plotting, I maintain that there was nothing “mere” about Stan’s dialogue, least of all with respect to the wall-crawler’s sales. Perhaps even more so than Stan and Jack Kirby, Stan and Steve were on opposite pages on just about everything after a while. It’s a shame, because they made quite a team… and between them produced two of the most important comicbook features of the 1960s. And if they’d produced only one (you guess which one!), that would still be just as true. Well, at least one thing is relatively certain now. They won’t be arguing over Spider-Man plotlines any longer. Rest in peace, both of you. You were two of the greats.
Bestest,
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STEVE DITKO: A Life In Comics
A Brief Bird’s-Eye View Of A Remarkable Artist by Nick Caputo
S
teve Ditko was born in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, on November 2nd, 1927, where he spent his childhood and teenage years. After high school he joined the post-World War II Army, and upon his return to civilian life became a student at the Cartoonist and Illustrators School in New York City. There he was taught by comicbook artist Jerry Robinson, one of the early (and renowned) contributors on “Batman.” Ditko was greatly influenced by Robinson, along with many other comicbook and strip artists, including Mort Meskin.
story was “Paper Romance” in Daring Love #1, cover-dated Sept.Oct. 1953, for Stanmor. Other 1953-executed stories include the even earlier “Hair Yee-eeee” (signed “SS,” likely a collaboration with fellow student Sy Moskowitz) in Strange Fantasy #9 (Dec. 1953; Farrell) and at the Simon & Kirby studio, assisting on Captain 3-D # 1 (Harvey) and the unpublished second issue (primarily as background inker) and as full artist on “A Hole in the Head,” a 6-page thriller in Black Magic, Vol. 4, #3, for the Prize group.
Ditko’s entry into the comicbook field began with a number of small publishers. While his first sale, scripted by Bruce Hamilton (“Stretching Things”) for Ajax-Farrell, appeared in Fantastic Fears #5 (Jan. 1954), his first full-art published
Steve Ditko in one of the most-reproduced of the relatively few photos of him known to exist—flanked by the splash page of the most famous story he ever drew, the origin of “Spider-Man” from Amazing Fantasy #15 (Sept. 1962), scripted by Stan Lee— and a splash featuring his most personal creation, “Mr. A,” from witzend #3 (1966). Thanks to Bob Bailey and Jim Kealy, respectively, for the two art scans. [Amazing Fantasy page TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.; “Mr. A” page TM & © Estate of Steve Ditko.]
In addition to more Black Magic stories and Ditko’s first Western for Timor [A/E EDITOR’S NOTE: See p. 35], 1954 launched a long and creatively rewarding association with Charlton Press. In his first year with the company, Ditko produced
A Brief Bird’s-Eye View Of A Remarkable Artist
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In the late 1950s, Ditko shared studio space in Manhattan with a fellow artist he befriended at the Cartoonist and Illustrators school: Eric Stanton, recognized for drawing erotic/ fetish art in small press publications. According to Stanton, both men assisted each other from time to time. Ditko ghosted for Stanton (as “stantoons”), possibly over layouts; his distinctive inking/ lettering is evident on strips such as “Sweeter Gwen.” Stanton and Ditko remained studio mates for close to a decade and friends for the rest of their lives.
Daring Fears! (Above left:) The splash page of the first Ditko-drawn story ever published—from Stanmor’s Daring Love #1 (Sept.-Oct.1953). (Above right:) This story for Ajax/Farrell’s horror comic Fantastic Fears #5 (Jan. 1954) was reportedly drawn before the Stanmor story, but appeared in print shortly after it. Thanks to Nick Caputo. In fact, all art scans accompanying this look at Ditko’s career were supplied by Nick, unless otherwise noted. [© the respective copyright holders.]
over 150 pages of art, drawing crime, science-fiction, and horror stories. For a beginning artist, Ditko’s work displayed a sense of confidence that pointed to a great talent in the making. His understanding of mood, pacing, characterization, and panel-topanel storytelling was already well above average and would grow considerably in the years to come. Only one Ditko-drawn story appeared in 1955, “Flymouth Car Show” in Charlton’s humor title From Here to Insanity #10 (June). 1956, though, was a watershed time, the start of a nearly 10-year association with editor Stan Lee and Timely/Atlas (later Marvel) comics. There he produced 4-page thrillers for Astonishing, Journey into Mystery, Marvel Tales, Spellbound, World of Mystery, World of Suspense, and Strange Tales of the Unusual, some scripted by veteran Carl Wessler. While “The Badmen” (2-Gun Western #4, May) was one of countless Western genre tales, its importance in comics history is assured due to its being the first story with a “Stan Lee and S. Ditko” byline.
That Old Black Magic An early Ditko monster, from the Simon-&-Kirby-produced Prize comic Black Magic #27 (a.k.a. Vol. 4, #3; Nov.-Dec. 1953)—except that Nick Caputo’s analysis, reflected in the online Grand Comics Database, says that Jack Kirby redrew all the monster figures in the story “A Hole in the Head” except the one in the third panel on this particular page. [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright notice.]
Steve Ditko: A Life In Comics
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One For The Money, Two For The Gun… (Above:) This story from Timely’s Two-Gun Western #4 (May 1956) is the first-ever recorded collaboration of Lee and Ditko. Its cover title read “2-Gun Western,” while the indicia apparently read “2 Gun Western” without the hyphen. Get it together, guys! [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Oh, You Beautiful Dolls! (Above:) A page of Eric Stanton’s 1960s Spacedolls to which Steve Ditko may or may not have contributed a spot of inking. For more of Stanton’s artwork (on which the Spider-Man artist almost certainly did some work), plus a photo of Stanton, see p. 42. [TM & © Estate of Eric Stanton.]
Throughout the 1950s, Ditko freelanced for both Charlton and Timely/Atlas on a variety of anthology titles. In addition to the aforementioned sci-fi/mystery/fantasy, Ditko illustrated Western, war, crime—even the adventures of horses! (Black Fury and Rocky Lane’s Black Jack, the popular cowboy star’s equine companion, headlined their own comics for years.) In 1959 Stan Lee assigned Ditko his first full inking job over Jack Kirby’s pencils (“I Fought the Colossus!,” Strange Tales # 72, Dec.). Lee was pleased with Ditko’s meticulous delineation (likely inspired by the work of John Severin, whom the younger artist greatly admired) and paired the two whenever possible. In addition to Ditko’s inks on Kirby pre-hero monster stories and covers, he also inked Kirby war (Battle) and a trio of impressive Western covers (Kid Colt Outlaw, Two Gun Kid, and Gunsmoke Western). Beginning with Amazing Adult Fantasy #7 (Dec. 1961), the formerly-titled Amazing Adventures became a platform for Lee and Ditko’s 5-page thrillers. Lee enjoyed collaborating with
Let’s Play Black Jack! A beautifully composed page by Ditko (scripter unknown) from Charlton’s Rocky Lane’s Black Jack (May 1959), the comic that starred the horse of Republic’s one-time B-Western star Allan “Rocky” Lane. By this time, Lane’s appearances in movies had dwindled to a trickle… and presumably, so had Black Jack’s. [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
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A Brief Bird’s-Eye View Of A Remarkable Artist
“I Was Drawn By Two Colossi!” (Above left:) Ditko inked Kirby fully for the first time in “I Fought the Colossus!” in Tales of Suspense #72 (Dec. 1959). Writers uncertain—may be from a plot by Stan Lee and a script by Larry Lieber. (Above right:) An all-Dikto war splash from Timely’s Battle #63 (April ’59). Writer unknown. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Ditko, who by this point (according to Ditko) had already begun working “Marvel method,” i.e., with Lee providing him with a brief synopsis and the artist filling in the details. AAF was novel for several reasons. A comicbook fashioned by a team—and specifically promoted as such—was rare; earlier instances include Jerry Siegel & Joe Shuster and Joe Simon & Jack Kirby. EC publisher Bill Gaines praised his line of artists, although the writers were overlooked; Lee included a contents and coming attractions page, and soon added a letters section. Despite these innovations, sales for Amazing Adult Fantasy were wanting and change was in the air. Unknown to the participants, a key moment in comicbook history transpired when Lee assigned Ditko to a new super-hero feature set to debut in Amazing Adult Fantasy #15—with the “Adult” part of the appellation dropped. Jack Kirby’s penciled “Spiderman” pages were rejected by Lee. According to Ditko, when he saw Kirby’s pages he told Lee they reminded him of Joe Simon’s 1959-60 Adventures of The Fly (penciled originally by
“The Magazine That Respects Your Intelligence!” The Ditko-drawn “Coming Attractions” page from Timely’s Amazing Adult Fantasy #7 (Dec. 1961)—around the same time the first issue or two of Fantastic Four were going on sale around the country. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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rogues’ gallery. Ditko’s next idea was “Doctor Strange.” In “He Giveth and He Taketh Away” (The Avenging Mind, 2007), Ditko wrote: “On my own, I brought in to Lee a five-page, penciled story with a page/ panel script of my idea of a new, different kind of character for variety in Marvel Comics.”
“Look Out, Here Comes The Spider-Man”—Twice! (Left:) Surprisingly, the first-ever Spider-Man cover, for Amazing Fantasy #15-and-only (Sept. 1962), was penciled by Jack Kirby and inked by Steve Ditko, after either editor/writer Stan Lee or publisher Martin Goodman nixed the Ditko-solo version. Thanks to the Grand Comics Database. (Right:) Fortunately, the rejected Ditko version wasn’t totally tossed and has been printed numerous times—including this color version, which captures the flavor of Stan Goldberg’s coloring (and Timely’s printing) in 1962! [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Kirby) over at the Archie group. This statement may have triggered Lee to begin anew, since he was very much aware of the litigious nature of Archie Comics’ publishers. However it transpired, the irrefutable fact is that Ditko, who had previously been scheduled to ink Kirby’s pencils on the new feature, was promoted to full artist, working from Lee’s synopsis. According to his testimony, Ditko added many elements to Spider-Man, notably the idea of a full-face mask and distinctive costume. Amazing Fantasy was planned as an ongoing vehicle for Spider-Man, but publisher Martin Goodman suspended publication of the title. Goodman thought better of that decision when sales reports on issue #15 came in. Several months later, The Amazing Spider-Man was scheduled as an ongoing bi-monthly (soon to be monthly) comic. Within a short period of time, Spider-Man became one of Marvel’s most successful, popular, and critically acclaimed super-heroes. As co-creator, Ditko was instrumental in making Spider-Man a credible character. The teenage world of Peter Parker was unlike that of any other strip; the cast of supporting characters—Aunt May, J. Jonah Jameson, Flash Thompson, Betty Brant, Liz Allen— offered unique storytelling situations which Ditko orchestrated with gusto. In addition, Lee and Ditko created an army of outlandish villains that rivaled Chester Gould’s Dick Tracy and his
Debuting in the back pages of Strange Tales (#110, July 1963), which headlined “The Human Torch,” Ditko’s “Doctor Strange” re-invented the traditional Mandrake magician/ hero. Always seeking out new ideas, Ditko may have taken stock of how bland the short-lived “Dr. Droom” feature in Amazing Adventures was (he would have been aware of “Droom” due to the simple fact that he had inked the first episode). Ditko crafted a visual motif in “Doctor Strange,” employing mystical hand gestures, defensive spells, and vast floating dimensions with an authenticity that many copied, but none have surpassed. Ditko’s influence on a younger generation of artists, including talents such as Jim Starlin and P. Craig Russell (both of whom have taken turns on “Doctor Strange”), is undeniable and has been acknowledged. Ditko continued to pave the way in Marvel’s early period, co-plotting and drawing Amazing Spider-Man and “Doctor Strange”; he also remained loyal to Charlton, working on movie monsters Gorgo and Konga with writer Joe Gill. Other notable achievements include his redesign of Iron Man, which remains the standard into the present day (Tales of Suspense
How The Other Half Lived Before we forget and whiz through this whole issue without one—here’s a pic of Stan Lee in the 1970s, in his JJJ-style mustache. He and Steve Ditko were an unbeatable combination— just like Lee and Kirby.
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A Brief Bird’s-Eye View Of A Remarkable Artist
Strange But True? (Above left:) The very first “Doctor Strange” splash, from Strange Tales #110 (July 1963). On p. 38 of this issue, Nick’s buddy Barry Pearl suggests that Ditko, who conceived the character and plotted that first story with no input from editor Stan Lee, named the hero “Stephen” to some extent after himself. But since Lee apparently had a hand in naming the hero “Doctor Strange,” it’s more likely that the “Stephen” was his idea, as Ditko suggests on p. 51. (Above right:) Less than two years before, in Tales of Suspense #22 (Oct. ’61), Lee and Ditko had collaborated on a similar theme, which, like the first “Doctor Strange” outing, featured a “Nightmare” figure riding a sinister mount. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
#48, Dec. 1963); last-minute inking assistance (with Sol Brodsky) on Daredevil #1 (April 1964) when Bill Everett was unable to complete the work on time; and the brilliant concept of employing head or full-figure drawings of Marvel’s characters in the upper-left corner of every cover (debuting on May/June 1963-dated comics), a simple and effective way to attract the attention of potential customers and identify Marvel’s brand from its many competitors.
Ironing Things Out! The second of the two pages in the “Iron Man” feature in Tales of Suspense #48 (Dec. 1963) in which Steve Ditko re-designed the so-called Golden Avenger’s armor. Inks by George Roussos, as “George Bell.” But—does anybody really know if the re-design was Steve’s idea—or Stan’s? Either way, of course, Ditko doubtless contributed considerably to the actual new look. In a strange way, this more mechanical approach to Tony Stark’s donning of his armor (on the preceding TOS pages) still seems to foreshadow today’s approach of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Steve Ditko: A Life In Comics
Where Are King Kong And Godzilla When You Really Need Them? The splash page of Charlton’s Konga #1 (June 1960) and Gorgo #11 (Feb. 1963), both drawn by Ditko and scripted by Joe Gill, whose photo can be seen on p. 49. Both monsters (Gorgo and Konga, that is—not Ditko and Gill) were taken from popular B-movies. Of course, we use the term “B-movie” loosely here; both films were clearly intended to be solo features, or at the very least the top of a drive-in double bill. Technically, the term “B-movie” refers to flicks that were produced specifically to be the less important half of a double feature. See how educational it is to read Alter Ego? [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
Ditko’s first contribution to fanzines appeared—appropriately enough—in an illustrated letter to Roy Thomas in the first incarnation of Alter Ego (#8, Winter 1965). [A/E EDITOR’S NOTE: See p. 6.] Ditko took great interest in small-press publications that were often produced by youthful, enthusiastic fans. He contributed to them often, providing art, covers and interviews. In the years ahead, they would become an important outlet for his independent work. In Tales to Astonish #60 (Oct. 1964) Lee teamed with Ditko for a revival of “The Incredible Hulk.” Ditko had drawn the final issue of the series’ initial run, and Lee had kept the character in the public eye as a guest-star in The Avengers and Fantastic Four; but with Ditko plotting (or co-plotting), the Hulk was considerably revised. Changes included Banner turning into the Hulk in times of great stress, and new characters such as Major
Hulking Out—One More Time! While Ditko had inked Kirby in the second 1962 issue of The Incredible Hulk and had done full-art chores on #6, he returned to work over Kirby’s layouts when Ol’ Greenskin returned to solo status in Tales to Astonish #60 (Oct. 1964). Here’s an action page from #67 (May ’65), as inked by Frank Giacoia as “Frank Ray.” [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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Glenn Talbot, a Javert-like protagonist who distrusted Banner and accused him of treason, and The Leader, whose exposure to gamma rays had the opposite effect from what it did on Banner, imbuing him with superior intelligence. George Roussos, Dick Ayers, Vince Colletta, and Frank Giacoia were assigned to ink the strip, the latter being the most compatible. Each story ended with a serial-like cliffhanger (the last one quite literally), but after only eight installments Ditko (according to Lee’s note in the letters section) left the strip. Meanwhile, on Amazing Spider-Man and “Doctor Strange,” changes were taking place. With ASM # 26 (July) and Strange Tales # 135 (Aug. 1965) Ditko was officially credited as plotter, not just “artist.” According to Ditko, he had been plotting the stories solo for some time. Research indicates ASM # 21 was very likely the last story Lee initiated, since it included The Human Torch and The Beetle, guest stars from Strange Tales. Ditko stated he was against including characters from other titles, feeling that it imposed on the space for Peter Parker’s supporting cast and storylines. He also believed a hero didn’t need assistance. Ditko probably took over full plotting of “Doctor Strange” beginning with the “Dormammu” storyline (ST #125).
From roughly this point on, Ditko and Lee were no longer on speaking terms. Which of them initiated that situation is disputed: Ditko stated that Lee would not come out of his office when he dropped pages off; Lee claimed Ditko stopped talking to him. Thus, Ditko brought in his penciled pages and hand-written notes to production manager Sol Brodsky, picking them up after they were dialogued by Lee and lettered by either Sam Rosen or Artie Simek. Any request for changes in art would be relayed to Ditko by Brodsky. Despite this lack of communication, both Amazing Spider-Man and “Doctor Strange” rose to creative heights. Doctor Strange’s quest for the secret of Eternity built up month after month in 10-page installments, exhibiting a narrative craft which remains impressive. Accompanied by Lee’s solid dialogue, the two crafted a “graphic novel” before that term was conceived. Similar to master storyteller Will Eisner on The Spirit, Ditko knew how to pace a tale and build tension in short segments, a technique many writers and artists with triple the space are unable to accomplish. Alongside his concurrent “Master Planner trilogy” in ASM #31-33, Ditko’s work on these two strips remains a high-water mark that comicbook aficionados and students of the form analyze with the intensity of film scholars dissecting the directorial techniques of Alfred Hitchcock.
Chasing Ditko (Left:) A pursuit page from Amazing Spider-Man #27 (Aug. 1965), “Bring Back My Goblin to Me!,” as plotted & drawn by Ditko and dialogued & edited by Stan Lee. Despite Stan’s poor memory on the subject (he is quoted elsewhere in this issue as saying that Steve merely “mailed in” his pages, which probably never happened), Ditko was almost certainly correct in writing, years later, that it was the editor, not the artist, who decided the pair should no longer confer. (Right:) The “Doctor Strange” splash page from Strange Tales #135 (likewise Aug. ’65). [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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Strange Tales #142 (March 1966) was Lee’s last dialogue job over Ditko’s “Doctor Strange.” Roy Thomas stepped into that role for #143-144, followed by Denny O’Neil in ST #145-146. And then, suddenly, it was all over. In November 1965, Ditko gave notice to Sol Brodsky that he would be finishing his last stories for Marvel. The artist had been accepting freelance assignments even before he resigned. At the same time Amazing Spider-Man # 31 was on newsstands, fans could purchase a revived Captain Atom (#79, Dec. 1965, announced in fanzines such as The Comic Reader) with Ditko returning to pencil the strip. His art also appeared in a new mystery title for Charlton, Ghostly Tales, inked by the talented Rocco Mastroserio. Always a prolific artist, Ditko expanded his workload considerably in 1966, including masterful wash-tone and other drawing techniques for Warren’s black-&-white horror magazines (Creepy and Eerie); “NoMan,” “Dynamo,” and “Menthor” stories for Wally Wood at Tower; and “ghosting” stories inked by Sal Trapani, who often farmed out jobs assigned to him to others to pencil, usually anonymously (as in the case of their two stories in Strange Adventures #188-189 for DC). The Ditko-Trapani team also appeared in Adventures into the Unknown, Forbidden Worlds, and Unknown
On The Eerie Canal A Ditko sword-and-sorcery page from Warren Publishing’s Eerie #10 (July 1967). Script by editor Archie Goodwin. [TM & © New Comic Company, LLC.]
Worlds for the American Comic Group and Get Smart, Hogan’s Heroes, and Nukla for Dell. Ditko continued to freelance for Charlton, Warren, and Tower in 1967. In the previous year, “The Blue Beetle,” a character who had been making the rounds since 1939, was overhauled by Ditko, appearing as a back-up feature in Captain Atom (beginning in #83). Blue Beetle was awarded his own magazine in ’67; it ran for five issues (#6 was advertised but did not see publication until a decade later). Ditko plotted and drew the strip, although the actual finished dialogue was revised by Gary Friedrich and Dave Glanzman. Ditko wove a tale of intrigue, with the original character tying into the new version. Although it showed great promise, the title was soon canceled. In the 1980s Ditko had proposed a revival at DC (which had purchased the rights to Charlton’s heroes), following his earlier characters and concepts, but management turned the idea down.
Up’n Atom! The Ditko-penciled splash page of Charlton’s Captain Atom #81 (July 1966), with inking by Rocco Mastroserio and script by Joe Gill. Ditko had actually returned to Captain Atom as of its first new full issue, #78 (Dec. ’65), some months before he split from Marvel Comics. [TM & © DC Comics.]
Blue Beetle #1 (June 1967) introduced a new back-up strip by Ditko: “The Question.” Dressed in a business suit and hat, his face a blank slate, Vic Sage was the first of Ditko’s new breed of heroes: non-super-powered crime-fighters with an extraordinary belief in justice. Inspired by the works of Aristotle and the philosophy of Ayn Rand, Ditko’s stories were mini-morality plays diametrically opposed to the anti-heroes that permeated popular culture. Mysterious Suspense # 1 (Oct. 1968) gave Ditko an opportunity to feature “The Question” in a full-length 25-page story.
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device implanted under his skin. The bizarrely outfitted, greenhaired, acrobatic Creeper unnerved the criminal element with his mocking laughter. The 75th issue of Showcase introduced yet another Ditko-crafted series, with input from editorial director Carmine Infantino. The Hawk and The Dove focused on two teenage brothers with diametrically opposed views. Their father, a judge, was the balancing factor between pure force (Hawk) and unrelenting passivity (Dove). Ditko’s work on both series was cut short due to health issues. Beware The Creeper ran for seven issues, with the final story finished by Jack Sparling and Mike Peppe; he completed three “Hawk and Dove” stories before Gil Kane stepped in as a replacement. Ditko freelanced almost exclusively for Charlton from 1969-1974. There he drew many overlooked gems for their mystery line, including Ghostly Tales, The Many Ghosts of Doctor Graves, Ghost Manor, Haunted, and Ghostly Haunts, experimenting with pen and ink, storytelling, and layouts with uninhibited abandon. Most stories were scripted by Joe Gill, whose work Ditko admired. In addition, the artist dabbled in war, Western, jungle, and romance stories. (For a more detailed account, read my blog posts on Ditko at Charlton: https://nick-caputo.blogspot.com/). Ditko created one new costumed hero at Charlton during this period, the silent “Killjoy,” who appeared in the back of E-Man #2 (Dec. 1973). Ditko later purchased the rights to “Killjoy” from Charlton. In that six-year period, Ditko devoted attention to his most
Beetle Juice! Ditko’s Blue Beetle goes into action in the backup feature in Charlton’s Captain Atom #83 (Nov. 1966). The story was plotted by Ditko and scripted by Gary Friedrich. [TM & © DC Comics.]
That same year Ditko expanded on the Question concept, this time unhampered by Comics Code restrictions. When friend and fellow artist Wally Wood offered Ditko an opportunity to produce material on his own terms (and to retain ownership of the work) in his small-press publication, witzend, Ditko rose to the occasion, creating “Mr. A,” introduced in the 3rd issue. Like The Question, Mr. A was a crusading reporter who wore a metal mask and carried a black-&-white calling card. Mr. A was never published in a mainstream comicbook; instead, Ditko’s hero was featured in fanzines and independent publications—and only in black-&white—a very deliberate choice to emphasize Mr. A’s worldview. Ditko’s moral avenger appeared sporadically for the next 50 years, most recently in stories co-published by Robin Snyder via Kickstarter. Ditko’s first professional sale to DC didn’t occur until 1968 (as noted earlier, Sal Trapani was assigned the two earlier Strange Adventures stories ghosted by Ditko), more than 15 years after he began in the profession. In personal correspondence with this author (dated Nov. 19, 2017), Ditko stated that Stan Lee and Al Fago effectively used him “versus DC comics editors who rejected me until Carmine Infantino took over.” Working for editor Murray Boltinoff, Ditko created “The Creeper,” introduced in Showcase #73 (April 1968) and graduating immediately to his own title. Another uniquely designed character, Jack Ryder gained powers with a
I’ve Got A “Question”… “The Question” debuted as a backup series in Charlton’s Blue Beetle #1 (June 1967). Ditko did full writing and art on this one. [TM & © DC Comics.]
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independent work debuted. Joe Brancatelli published Mr. A, the first in a new series. Bruce Hershenson followed with Avenging World. These titles were not distributed alongside Code-approved Marvel, DC, Charlton, or Archie fare; most were sold through mail-order, at conventions, and in the then-few comics-related outlets. Ironically, Ditko’s philosophical, clear-cut tales of right and wrong often shared space in head shops alongside underground comics, where hopelessness, despair, anarchy, sex, violence, drugs, and anti-authority were exemplified by artists such as Robert Crumb. Ditko returned to DC in 1975, briefly reunited with his creation, “The Creeper” (First Issue Special #7), although he had no plotting input (Michael Fleisher wrote the script), and penciled the sword-and-sorcery/fantasy title Stalker with writer Paul Levitz, aided admirably by Wally Wood on inks. Other work included short thrillers in House of Mystery and another crack at humor in Plop (again with Wood). The Ditko-Wood combo continued at former Marvel publisher Martin Goodman’s fledging AtlasSeaboard line, illustrating The Destructor, a hard-edged teenage super-hero scripted by Archie Goodwin. While showing some promise, the title lasted only four issues (Wood contributed to issues #1 & 2). Ditko also penciled two issues of Tiger Man and one
It’s As Easy As “A”—Uh—Well, Just “A”! The final page of Mr. A’s debut in Wally Wood’s black-&-white creatordriven, creators-owned comic magazine witzend #3. Thanks to Jim Kealy. [TM & © Estate of Steve Ditko.]
personal work, which appeared gratis in fanzines such as Sense of Wonder, Comic Crusader, The Collector, and, of course, witzend. In addition to new “Mr. A” stories, Ditko contributed essays and illustrations that focused on his unique worldview. One exception was a 1969 “Cannon” story he penciled for writer/ inker Wally Wood (Heroes Inc., a comic sold exclusively in PXs for servicemen). 1973 marked a creative triumph for Ditko; two comicbooks featuring his
Jeepers, Creeper! (Above:) The Ditko-created series “Beware The Creeper!” made its debut in DC’s Showcase #73 (March-April 1968, with a script by Don Segall from a plot by artist Ditko. Seen here is the splash page. DC and Ditko both clearly hoped this would prove the next “Spider-Man” for a larger and more powerful company than Charlton, but it was not to be. (Left:) Ditko’s cover for Showcase #75 (June ’68) introduced “The Hawk and The Dove,” which would be scripted inside by another Marvel and Charlton veteran, Steve Skeates. [TM & © DC Comics.]
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were disappointed with his one caveat. Ditko made it absolutely clear that he would not return to, nor draw stories featuring, either Spider-Man or Doctor Strange. Instead, he took over Jack Kirby’s creation Machine Man, working from writer Marv Wolfman’s plots. The 1980s was a fertile period for the artist. In addition to Machine Man, Ditko had a 16-issue run (including an annual) penciling Rom, drew several Indiana Jones stories and
Charlton Chain-Rattling (Above left:) A “Killjoy” page from the same company’s E-Man #2 (Dec. 1973). [TM & © Estate of Steve Ditko.] (Above right:) The Ditko-drawn cover of Haunted #1 (Sept. 1971). [© the respective copyright holders.]
of Morlock 2001, paired, for the first and only time, with inker Berni Wrightson. Also in 1975, Ditko produced two more independent comics for publisher Bruce Hershenson, Wha…?, an anthology title, and a second issue of Mr. A. Man-Bat #1 (Jan. 1976) is noteworthy as the sole opportunity Ditko had to draw Batman. Not surprisingly, his interpretation is unique. Batman’s face is hidden in shadow throughout and he exudes a mysterious and determined nature. Ditko clearly put thought into the character’s appearance. A later story proposal exists which further explores the promise of what could have been. Charlton closed its doors to new material in 1977, although Ditko’s work continued to appear via inventory and reprints. With Charlton out of the picture, the artist concentrated on projects for DC, where he created a new title for editor Joe Orlando, Shade the Changing Man, an otherworldly hero pursued by authorities, criminals, and the woman he loves. Rac Shade’s M-Vest device caused his enemies to see distorted images of him. Shade showed great promise and Ditko’s enthusiasm was high. He had plotted far ahead of schedule, but work was halted when DC had a slump in overall sales and management slashed its line. With Shade’s cancellation, “The Odd Man,” intended to be the back-up strip, was left without a home (the story was published two years later, in Detective Comics #487, Jan. 1980). “The Odd Man” would be Ditko’s last new solo creation for DC (he later designed and penciled “Starman” with writer Paul Levitz in Adventure Comics). Ditko contributed to various DC features (often for editor Jack C. Harris), including Legion of Super-Heroes, “The Demon,” and stories in House of Mystery, Weird War Tales, Time Warp, and Mystery in Space. Ditko was briefly re-reunited with “The Creeper,” this time as writer and artist (World’s Finest Comics #249-255). When the strip was dropped, Ditko revised several stories in preparation, appearing as “Shag” in Renegade Press and Snyder-Ditko publications. In 1979 fandom was startled by the announcement of Ditko’s return to Marvel after an absence of over 13 years—although some
Well, After All, He Was Inspired By The Shadow! The mysterious, face-obscured Batman on a fight page in Man-Bat #1 (Jan. 1976). Art by Ditko, inks by Al Milgrom, script by Gerry Conway. [TM & © DC Comics.]
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There’ll Be Some Changes Made! (Left:) A dynamic action page from Shade the Changing Man #5 (Feb.-March 1978). Art & plot by Ditko, script by Michael Fleisher. (Right:) Splash of “The Odd Man,” script & art by Ditko, from Detective Comics #487 (Jan. 1980). [TM & © DC Comics.]
many one-shots and fillers, including a few heroes he had some acquaintance with in the past (Daredevil, The Incredible Hulk, Iron Man, Fantastic Four) and newer characters (Micronauts, “Captain Universe,” “The Shroud”). He often provided breakdowns for inkers to complete; some of the most complementary included Steve Leialoha, Bob Wiacek, and P. Craig Russell. In 1988 Ditko, with writer Tom DeFalco, developed a new teenage hero, Speedball, which he plotted and penciled. It was the last series he created for Marvel. Starting in 1982, Ditko freelanced for some of the fledging independent publishers, which became another outlet to create self-owned characters. For Pacific Comics he came up with “The Missing Man,” an offbeat, humorous-looking hero whose body was barely visible, sharing space with Dave Stevens’ “Rocketeer” in Pacific Presents. “The Mocker” initially appeared in Jack Kirby’s Captain Victory, although the presentation was hampered by standard comicbook dimensions (Ditko originally prepared the strip for a black-&-white magazine). Static made his initial appearance at Eclipse Comics. The implication of using a powerful experimental suit, and whether it should even exist since it could fall into the wrong hands, was a theme Ditko found compelling. He also teamed with writer Steve Englehart and inker Steve Leialoha on “The Djinn,” a feature created to play to the artist’s strengths, for New Media’s Fantasy Illustrated.
The most significant Ditko event of the 1980s was the artist’s budding relationship with Robin Snyder, who had worked in an editorial capacity for DC and Western. Snyder scheduled Ditko to illustrate several stories, including Flash Gordon and “Star Guider,” a sci-fi series with writer Jack C. Harris. Those plans were aborted when the long-running company shuttered its comics operation (“Star Guider” later surfaced in Renegade Press’ Ditko’s World). Snyder and Ditko did collaborate on two Gobots coloring and children’s books for Western, both top-sellers for many years, according to Snyder. In 1983 Snyder became an editor at Archie, when the company ordered a revival of its super-heroes. Snyder enlisted Ditko to first draw, and then plot, pencil, and ink The Fly. Snyder also assigned him to create presentation art for a line of Archie adventure action figures produced by Mego. Ditko created a compelling storyline in The Fly, but management soon dropped its entire hero-line. Ditko returned to familiar ground in 1985 when Charlton bought new material to supplement its line of reprints. “Static” starred in Charlton Action, a title that showcased Ditko’s stories and art. Dissatisfied with editorial interference at Eclipse on his whollyowned character, Ditko took Static to Charlton, where he was able to retain the copyright. Ditko also drew several new stories in the revived Tales of the Mysterious Traveler. Robin Snyder edited both
[continued on p. 22]
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Marvel Redux While he refused to draw either Spider-Man or Dr. Strange upon his return to Marvel Comics, Ditko did tackle such creations as Kirby’s Machine Man (left, in #10, Aug. 1989) and his own Speedball (right, in #1, Sept. 1988). The former was scripted by Marv Wolfman, the latter by Roger Stern from a plot by Ditko and Tom DeFalco. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Missing—In Action! (Left:) For Pacific Presents #2 (April 1983) from the short-lived Pacific Comics, Ditko created “The Missing Man.” Dialogue by Robin Snyder. (Right:) “The Djinn” in New Media’s 1982 black-&white Fantasy Illustrated teamed Ditko with writer Steve Englehart and inker Steve Leialoha. Later installments appeared in Marvel’s Epic line. [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
Steve Ditko: A Life In Comics
The Rise Of Ditko & Snyder Steve Ditko and writer (and ofttimes editor) Robin Snyder teamed first on a couple of 1980s Gobots coloring books, then on Archie’s The Fly. Illustrating the latter is a dramatic page from The Fly #7 (June 1984), from a story on which Snyder is credited by the Grand Comics Database with a “dialogue assist.” [Gobots TM & © Western Publishing & Lithographing; Fly page TM & © Archie Comic Publications, Inc.]
Don’t Give Me Any Static! (Or Maybe You Should!) (Below:) Art for a Charlton “Static” ad—by Ditko, of course. [TM & © Estate of Steve Ditko.]
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[continued from p. 19] titles. This ambitious start was cut short after only two issues when Charlton closed its doors, this time for good. For over thirty years, Ditko and Charlton had been synonymous. Ditko: “It was always a treat doing a Joe Gill story. They were really justice stories. I also miss Charlton.” (Correspondence to the author, April 22, 2015). With Charlton’s demise, Ditko continued to work for DC and Marvel and began an association with writer/editor Mort Todd, illustrating humorous features in Cracked Mazagine. “Static” continued under the Renegade Press banner, along with several features intended for Charlton. The following year Ditko drew Golden Age heroes The Face and Skyman for Ace. Perhaps the most obscure Ditko art job appeared in a rare foray outside of comics. Rory O’Connor’s essay on producer Albert Grossman included a full-page illustration by Ditko (Musician magazine #104, June 1987). The most significant development from a creative standpoint took place in 1988. Ditko partnered again with Robin Snyder, clearly an editor he trusted, in solo publishing ventures. Their first book was a compilation of “Static” stories, followed by a novellength thriller starring “The Mocker” (this time in black-&-white, as Ditko had envisioned, and with a finite conclusion). With a sympathetic editor at the helm, Ditko could finally orchestrate stories unhindered by a monthly schedule, limited page count, and what he often considered to be hurtful interference. The artist was clearly enjoying his freedom.
Static Electricity The cover of the artist’s first venture partnering with Robin Snyder—Steve Ditko’s Static #1 (1989), collecting the first several stories of that Ditko-created hero. [TM & © Robin Snyder & Estate of Steve Ditko.]
Ditko continued to freelance in the 1990s. New work appeared at Valiant (in Battlemania, Solar, Magnus, Shadowman); Ray Zone (Substance, in 3-D!); Mort Todd (Monsters Attack); Topps (Secret City Saga and Captain Glory, scripted by Roy Thomas), and Defiant (a Dark Dominion card set). At Marvel he drew stories featuring “The Shroud,” “Iron Man,” “The Human Torch,” “Solo,” and “The Hulk”; Will Murray’s The Destroyer; Mighty Morphin Power Rangers; Phantom 2040 (with attractive finished art by Will Reinhold); “Fantastic Four” and “Avengers” segments in Marvel’s Heroes and Legends; covers for Mort Todd’s monster reprints; and a noteworthy event, Ditko’s take on a legendary Simon & Kirby creation, “Captain America,” both script and pencils (with inks by Terry Austin) in Marvel Comics Presents #80-81 (1991).
Start The Music! Atypical Ditko art, for Musician magazine #104 (June 1987). [© the respective copyright holders.]
1998 marked Ditko’s final assignments at both DC and Marvel. For the former, a “Spectre” tale, inked by Kevin Nowlan (Legends of the DC Universe 80 Page Giant #1); for the latter, “Iron Man” (Shadows and Light #1), scripted by Len Wein. Two unpublished stories surfaced years later: a “DeSaad” back-up drawn a decade earlier for DC (in the 2008 Tales of the New Gods trade paperback) and a Hulk-Human Torch team-up originally drawn in 1980 and released in 2011 (From the Marvel Vault #1).
Steve Ditko: A Life In Comics
Three’s Company! Examples of Ditko’s 1990s work for various companies include Magnus (#2) for Valiant, Secret City Saga for Topps (in this instance, a trading card spotlighting Captain Glory, Night Glider, and Bombast), and “The Shroud” from an issue of Marvel Super-Heroes. [TM & © respectively Random House, Topps Chewing Gum, and Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Only two instances of Ditko’s independent work appeared outside of his ventures with Robin Snyder in the 1990s: Strange Avenging Tales, an anthology title for Fantagraphics, and The Safest Place for Dark Horse. Ditko’s tale of a middle-aged woman fighting for freedom was particularly effective. From 1998 onward Ditko’s new stories and art appeared exclusively in cooperation with Robin Snyder. Anthologies like The Avenging Mind, Ditko “Packages” (thick compilations of essays, editorials, new heroes, and acidic jabs at the comicbook industry), and reprints of Charlton stories. Ditko also provided the impetus for Snyder’s newsletter, The Comics!, a smorgasbord of comics history and first-hand accounts by many who worked in the industry, often spotlighting neglected creators and companies. Debuting in 1990, and continuing into the present day, Ditko contributed extensively to The Comics!, writing essays on the industry and telling his side of the story regarding his work with Stan Lee at Marvel.
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A Brief Bird’s-Eye View Of A Remarkable Artist
Safe At Home? (Left:) This distinctive page done for Dark Horse’s The Safest Place in the World in the 1990s, constitutes some of Ditko’s last work for “independent” comics—unless you count his and Robin Snyder’s own imprint. Ditko did full scripting and drawing chores on this one, and co-colored it with Rachelle Menashe. [TM & © Dark Horse Comics, Inc.]
At a point when most artists wind down or retire, Ditko produced a steady stream of new material in his 70s, 80s, and up to his 90th year. Uninterested in drawing cover re-creations or commissions, Ditko created a plethora of new heroes and concepts, including “Madman,” “The Cape,” “The ?!,” “P Masks,” “The Gray Negotiator,” and “Miss Eerie.” Steve Ditko left comics only when he died in June 2018. For decades, the blank page was his canvas, whereon he produced work that was intensely personal and endlessly fascinating. His achievements in the field will undoubtedly continue to be studied as long as comic art is appreciated. Dedicated to Robin Snyder, whose positive feedback, helpful suggestions, and biographical data were a tremendous help. You’re one of the good guys, Robin!
Nick Caputo is a charter member of comic fandom’s “Yancy Street Gang” and the author of numerous wellresearched articles on comics.
A Double Dose Of Ditko! (Left:) This Ditko Package cover from 1989 featured a number of his own (and owned) creations and demonstrated his independent spirit, which persisted to the end. [TM & © Estate of Steve Ditko.] (Right:) On the other hand, the always-valuable “Dial B for Blog” online site put together this “Ditko League of America” faux cover to illustrate the full range of Ditko artistic co-creations. From l. to r., Captain Atom, Spider-Man, his visualization of Konga, The Creeper, Mr. A, Dr. Strange— and, swinging in from above, Blue Beetle. The rest of the cover, of course, is taken from an early Mike Sekowskypenciled Justice League of America cover for DC. [Captain Atom, The Creeper, & Blue Beetle TM & © DC Comics; Spider-Man & Dr. Strange TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.; Mr. A. TM & © Estate of Steve Ditko; Konga TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders; other art © DC Comics.]
Steve Ditko: A Life In Comics
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STEVE DITKO Checklist [This checklist is adapted primarily from information in the online Who’s Who of American Comic Books 1928-1999, established by the late Dr. Jerry G. Bails and viewable at www.bailsprojects.com. Names of features that appeared in comicbooks both of that title and in other magazines as well are generally not italicized below. Key: (w) = writer; (p) = penciler; (i) = inker.] Name & Vital Stats: Steve Ditko (1927-2018) – artist, writer Pen Names: J. Kodti; Space Man Education: Cartoonist and Illustrators School Influences: Jerry Robinson Print Media (Non-Comics): Artist: juvenile books – 1984 Gobots on Earth, War of the Gobots (also plot assist); magazines – Mad Monsters 1961, Reason 1970 (reprint); Musician 1987. Penciler: juvenile books – 1985 coloring books Transformers (2 versions), The Autobot Smasher Commercial Art & Design: action-figure dolls for Remco Toys: Fox, Shield, Web, Comet, Sting, Eraser, and Brain Emperor (date uncertain); Mr. T T-shirt 1991 Honors: Eagle Award (UK) Roll of Honor 1985; Eisner Hall of Fame Award 1994; Inkpot Award (San Diego Comic-Con) 1986; Jack Kirby Hall of Fame Award 1990 Comics in Other Media: Bruce Webster (p) The Best of Horror and Science Fiction Comics 1987 (reprint); Cannon (p) 1975 in Heroes, Inc.; Captain Atom (p) 1975 in Charlton Bullseye (inventory from 1968); Cosaga (w)(p)(i) 1978 in Questar; The Defender in Comic Crusader (fanzine); Destruction Agent (w)(p)(i) 1978 in Questar; The Expert (w) (p)(i) in Questar; H-Series (w)(p)(i) 1972, 1976 in Comic Crusader; Mr. A (w)(p)(i) 1968, 1977 in Comic Crusader, 1970 in Champions (fanzine); Rescue (w)(p)(i) 1979 in Questar; Robot War (p)(i) 1986-87 in Cracked; Star (w)(p)(i) in Questar; Sweeter Gwen (p)(i) 1966 (reprint) in Bizarre Life Gang Publications: Blue Beetle (plot)(p)(i) 1974-75 in Charlton Portfolio; Captain Atom (p) 1975 in Charlton Bullsye; Heroes, Inc. (p) (i) 1976 San Francisco Comic Book Company: All-Stars (p)(i) 1970; Mr. A (w)(p)(i) 1970 Creator: Avenging World, Killjoy, Blue Beetle (3rd version), Mr. A, Missing Man, The Question, Static Co-Creator: Captain Atom, Shade the Changing Man, The Creeper, The Hawk and The Dove, Spider-Man, Dr. Strange, Stalker, Speedball, et al. Promotional Comics: Big Boy Magazine (p)(i) c. 1996 for Big Boy restaurants; Captain Universe (p)(i) 1980 Overseas Comics: Tiny Toons (p)(i) 1992 Comics Studio/Shop: Simon & Kirby Studio (p)(i) 1953-55 (freelance); Wally Wood Studio (p) c. 1966 (probably freelance) 3-D Zone: covers (p)(i) Daughters of Time 3-D 1991; Cracked Classics (p)(i) 1989 (reprint); Daughters of Time (p)(i) 1991; Substance (p)(i) 1990-921, also cover A.C.E. Comics: covers (p)(i) 1987 for Ace Comics Presents; The Face (p) 1986-87; Skyman (p) 1987 America’s Comic Group: covers (p) 1998 reprint; filler (p)(i) 1998 reprint; Jungle Jim (p) 1998 reprint – all for imprint Avalon
To Be Or Not To Be—That Is The Questar! Ditko art from the 1978 Questar publication. [TM & © the respective trademark& copyright holders.]
Comic Art Publishers: Avenging World (w)(p)(i) 1974; Mr. A (editor)(w)(p)(i)(letter) 1973, 1975, plus covers; Wha…? (p)(i) 1975 Deluxe Comics: filler (p) 1985; illustration (p) 1984; NoMan (p) 1984-86 (reprint); T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents (p) 1984 (reprint) Fantagraphics Books: The Baffler (w)(p)(i) 1997; Clyde and Claude (w)(p)(i) 1997; covers (p)(i) 1997; The Kinky Hook (asst. i) 1991 (reprint); Mr. A and others (p)(i) in The Ditko Collection (reprint); The Spoilers File (w)(p)(i) 1997; Steve Ditko’s Strange Avenging Tales (p)(i) 1997; Sweeter Gwen (p)(i) 1992 (reprint) J.C. Comics: covers (p) 1983 for Hall of Fame Featuring the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents New Media Publishing: The Djinn (p)(i) 1982; The Mocker (w)(p) (i) 1982 Pacific Comics: covers (i) 1982-83; The Missing Man (w)(p)(i) 1982-84; The Mocker (w)(p)(i) 1983; preview page (w)(p)(i) 1982 Renegade Press: Comic Action (plot)(p) 1986; covers (p)(i) 1985-86; Cracking Blazer (plot)(p) 1986; Ditko’s World (plot)(p) 1985-86; Frisky Frolics (p)(i) 1986 (reprint); Heads (plot)(p)(i) 1986; Murder (plot)(p)(i) 1986; Revolver (p)(i) 1985-86; Star Guider (w)(p)(i) 1985; Static (plot)
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A Brief Bird’s-Eye View Of A Remarkable Artist
(layouts) 1992 – all for imprint Valiant American Comics Group: mystery features (p)(i) 1966 Archie Publications: backup feature (p) 1983 in The Fly; Blue Ribbon (p)(i) 1983-84; covers (p) 1983-84; Fly Girl (p) 1983; The Fly (p)(i) (some w) 1983-84; The Hangman (p) 1983; The Jaguar (p)(i) 1984
A-Haunting We Will Go! Ditko’s splash page, complete with Dr. Haunt, from Charlton’s This Magazine Is Haunted #13 (Oct. 1957). Scripter unknown. [© the respective copyright holders.]
(p) 1986 Snyder-Ditko: Ditko Package (p)(i) 1989, 1992 (reprint); The Lonely One (p)(i) 1989 (reprint); The Mocker (w)(p)(i) 1990; Out of This World (p)(i) date uncertain (reprint); Static (w)(p)(i) 1988, 1989 Stanton Archives: various features (p)(i) c. 1958-62 Star*Reach Productions: Imagine (p)(i) 1978, plus cover Sword in the Stone (Canada): Adventures into the Unknown (p) 1990 (reprint); Forbidden Worlds (p)(i) 1991 (reprint); Kegor (p)(i) 1991 (reprint); Paul Mann (p)(i) 1998 (reprint) Wally Wood: filler (w)(p)(i) 1971; Mr. A (w)(p)(i) 1967-70; witzend (w) (p)(i) 1966-71, 1982 Notes on Comics Career: Letterer on most of his own work for various publishers Fan & Trade Zines: [no room to list; see entry at www. bailsprojects.com] COMICBOOKS (U.S. Mainstream Publications): Acclaim Comics: Battlemania (p)(i) 1991-92; card inserts in comics (p)(i) 1991; Magnus, Robot Fighter (plot)(p) 1992; Shadowman (w) (p) 1992, 1994; Solar, Man of the Atom (w)(p) 1992; X-O ManoWar
Charlton Comics: backup features (p)(i) in Konga 1962, Texas Rangers in Action 1970, The Phantom 1970; Baron Weirwulf and Impy (p)(i) 1981-81 (reprint); Beyond the Grave (p)(i) 1975-76; Black Fury (p)(i) 1958; Blue Beetle (plot)(p)(i) 1966-68; Captain Atom (w)(p)(i) 1960-61, 1965-67 (reprint 1978-79); Case 372 (p) 1967; Cheyenne Kid (p)(i) 1958; Colonel Whiteshroud (p)(i) 1975, 1979 (reprint); covers (p)(i) 1954-79, 1985; Creepy Things (p)(i) 1975-76; Crime and Justice (p) (i) 1955; Doomsday Plus One (p)(i) 1976; Fantastic Giants (p)(i) 1966; Fightin’ Army (p)(i) 1956, 1970 (reprint 1982); filler (p)(i) 1969-70, 1976; From Here to Insanity (p)(i) 1955-56; Ghost Manor (p)(i) 1970-76; Ghostly Haunts (p)(i) 1972-77; Ghostly Tales (p) 1966-77 (reprint 1982); Gorgo (p)(i) 1961-64 (reprint 1966); Haunted Love (p)(i) 1973; Haunted (p)(i) 1971-76; Jungle Jim (p)(i) 1969-70; Killjoy (w)(p)(i) 1973-74; Konga (p)(i) 1960-63 (reprint 1966); Liberty Belle (p)(i) 1974; Mad Monsters (p)(i) 1961; The Many Ghosts of Dr. Graves (p)(i) 1967-77; Midnight Tales (p)(i) 1975; Monster Hunters (p)(i) 1975-77; Out of This World (p)(i) 1957-59; Outer Space (p)(i) 1958, 1968; Outlaws of the West (p)(i) 1959, 1970; Paul Mann (p)(i) 1968; The Phantom (p)(i) 1970; The Question (w)(p) (i) 1967-68 (signed “D.C. Glanzman”); Racket Squad in Action (p)(i) 1954; Robin Hood (p)(i) 1958; Rocky Lane’s Black Jack (p)(i) 1958-59; Romantic Story (p)(i) 1970; Scary Tales (p)(i) 1975-76; The Sentinels (w) 1967-68 (signed “D.C. Glanzman”); Shadows from Beyond (p)(i) 1966; Space Adventures (p)(i) 1954-56, 1958-61 (reprints 1969, 1979); Space War (p)(i) 1960 (reprint 1978); Static (w)(p)(i) 1985; Strange Suspense Stories (p)(i) 1954, 1957-61; Tales of the Mysterious Traveler (p) (i) 1956-59, 1985; Texas Rangers in Action (p)(i) 1970; Thane of Bagarth (p)(i) 1985 (reprint from 1960s); The Thing (p)(i) 1954); Unusual Tales (p)(i) 1956-61; Winnie the Witch (p)(i) 1970, 1972, 1978, 1984 (some reprint) Dark Horse Comics: Bitter/Better Person Series (w)(p)(i)(colorist) (letterer) 1993 in The Safest Place in the World, also cover; Indiana Jones: Sargasso Pirates (p)(i) 1996 graphic album DC Comics: Action Team-Up [Superman & others] (p) 1989; Black Lightning (p) 1986; covers (p)(i) 1968-70, 1975-80; The Creeper (w) (p)(i) 1968-69, 1975, 1978-79; The Demon (p)(i) 1979; Ghosts (p)(i) 1979, 1982; Green Lantern (p) 1989; The Hawk and The Dove (plot) (p)(i) 1968; House of Mystery (p)(i) 1976-78, 1980; House of Secrets (p)(i) 1976-77; Legion of Super-Heroes (p) 1979-81; Man-Bat (p) 1976-76; Mystery in Space (p)(i) 1980-81; The Odd Man (w)(p)(i) 1978; The Outsiders (p) 1986; Plop! (p)(i) 1975; Secrets of the Haunted House (p)(i) 1977-78, 1981-82; Shade, the Changing Man (w)(p) (i) 1977-78; Showcase (p)(i) 1968; The Spectre (p) 1998; Stalker (p) 1976-76; Starman [2nd version] (p) 1980; Strange Adventures (p) 1966; Superboy and The Legion of Super-Heroes (p) 1979; Time Warp (p) (i) 1979-80; The Unexpected (p)(some i)(some w) 1979-82; Weird War Tales (p)(i) 1977, 1982; Who’s Who in the DC Universe (p)(i) 1986 entries; Wonder Woman (p)1978 Defiant Comics: Dark Dominion (p) 1992; Michael Alexander (p) 1993 Dell Publications: covers (p) 1966; Get Smart! (p) 1966; Hogan’s Heroes (p)(i) 1966; Nukla (p) 1966 Eclipse Enterprises: covers (p)(i) 1983; Mr. Monster (p)(i) 1986 (reprint); Star*Reach Classics (p)(i) 1984 (reprint); Static (w)(p)(i) 1983; Tales of the Mysterious Traveler (p)(i) 1990 graphic album (reprint) Eerie Publications: Weird (p)(i) 1968 (reprint)
Steve Ditko: A Life In Comics
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(i) 1961; Dr. Strange (plot)(p)(i) 1963-66; Dracula (p)(i) 1980; Fantastic Four (i) 1963, (p)(i) 1981; Gallery of Villains (p)(i) 1964-65; Giant-Man (i) 1963, (p) 1964; Gunsmoke Western (i)(some p) 1960-61; Hulk (p) (i) 1962-65, 69, 79-80; Human Torch (w)(p) 1963, 1991; illustration (p)(i) 1981; Indiana Jones (p) 1984-86; Iron Man (p)(some w)(some i) 1963-64, 1975, 1982, 1983, 1988, 1990; Journey into Mystery (p)(i) 1956-63; Journey into Unknown Worlds (p)(i) 1955-56; Machine Man (p)(i) 1979-80, (w)(p) 1989; Marvel Tales (p)(i) 1956; Marvel Universe (p) 1983, 1985-86; Micronauts (p) 1979-80, 1982; Missus Arbogast (p)(i) 1990; Mystery Tales (p)(i) 1956; Nighthawk (p)(i) 1981; The Phantom (i) 1995; Rom (p) 1984-86; Sgt. Fury (i) 1965; The Shroud (plot)(p) 1990-91; Solo (p)(i) 1990; Speedball (p)(some w) 1989-91; Spellbound (p)(i) 1956; Spider-Man (plot)(p)(i) 1962-66; Strange Tales (p)(i) 1956-66; Strange Tales of the Unusual (p)(i) 1956; Strange Worlds (p)(i) 1958-59; Sub-Mariner (plot)(p) 1988; Tales of Suspense (p)(i) 1959-63; Tales to Astonish (p)(i) 1959-63; Two-Gun Western (p)(i) 1956; U.S. 1 (p) 1984; Untold Tales of the Marvel Universe (p)(i) 1982; What If? (layouts) 1988; What the--?! (p)(i) 1988; World of Fantasy (p)(i) 1959; World of Mystery (p)(i) 1956; World of Suspense (p)(i) 1956 New Media: The Djinn (p) 1982 Seaboard Comics (a.k.a. Atlas-Seaboard) The Destructor (p) 1975; Morlock 2001 (p) 1975; Tiger-Man (p) 1975 St. John Publishing: Do You Believe in Nightmares? (p)(i) 1957 Stanmor: Blazing Western (p)(i) 1954; Daring Love (p)(i) 1953 Topps Comics: Captain Glory (p)(i) 1993; Jack Kirby’s Secret City Saga (p) 1993; Wolff and Byrd (i) 1993; covers (p) 1993 Tower Comics: Agent Weed (p) 1967; Dynamo (p)(i) 1966-68; Menthor (p) 1966, 1968; NoMan (p) 1966-67; Weed (p)(i) 1966-67
When He Was “Sturdy Steve” Following Ditko’s passing, the publisher Panini, which reprints Marvel work in Europe, put together this tribute to the artist’s work for that company. Thanks to Robert Menzies. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Farrell Publications: Fantastic Fears (p)(i) 1954; Strange Fantasy (p) (i) 1953 Feature Comics (Quality): Black Magic (p)(i) 1953-54, 1961; Young Romance (p)(i) 1953 First Publishing: The Faceless Ones (p)(i) 1983 Harris Publications: Creepy – The Classic Years (p) 1991 (reprint) Harvey Comics: Captain 3-D (asst. i) 1953 I.W. Publications: Utah Kid (p)(i) 1958 (reprint) Major Magazines: Cracked (p)(i)(lettering) 1986-87; Monsters Attack! (w)(p)(i) 1989-90 (imprint Globe Communications) Marvel Comics: Amazing Adult Fantasy (p)(i) 1961-62; Amazing Adventures (p)(i) 1961; Amazing Fantasy (p)(i) 1962; Ant-Man (p) (i) 1990; Astonishing Comics (p)(i) 1955-56; The Avengers (p) 1984, 1986; backup features in Kid Colt Outlaw & Two-Gun Kid; Battle (i) (some p); Bug and Acroyear (p)(i) 1979; Bulls-Eye (p)(i) 1954; Captain America (w)(p) 1991; Captain Marvel (p)(i) 1980; Captain Universe (p)(i) 1980-81; Chance (p)(i) 1991; Chuck Norris (p) 1987; covers (p) (i) 1959-66, 1979-81, 1984, 1993-94; Daredevil (asst. i) 1964, (p)(i) 1980, 1985-86; Destroyer (p)(i) 1990-91; The Djinn (p) 1984-85; Dr. Droom
Captain America TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Art by Steve Ditko & P. Craig Russell.
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Up Close & Personal With Steve Ditko!—Part 1
Steve’s Secret
A Remembrance by Paul Levitz
I
t’s monstrously difficult to eulogize someone when they’ve made it repeatedly clear that they wish their private life to be kept scrupulously private, and to have their work judged, well, strictly as their work presents itself. A full and fair analysis of the 65-year body of Steve Ditko’s comics work I must leave to more unprejudiced scholars, but even judged on the most superficial level it’s a triumph: some of the most memorable monsters from a particularly dreary period in comics (the ‘50s); arguably the most significant single run of a super-hero comic in their resurgence (his Spider-Man leading the commercial revitalization of Marvel); the first enduring character to emerge from the indie movement (Mr. A coming out of witzend); and going on to create until, probably, his dying day. He spanned comics from the newsstand to Kickstarter, and every page he produced was distinctively his. But of all the talents he displayed in his stories as a creator, a writer, and an artist, none impressed me more than his ability to create firmament from his imagination. A Ditko fantasy world was somehow, impossibly, concrete at the same time as it was spun from wisps of ink. When his characters travelled to other dimensions, heaven, hell, or outer space, they moved with an incredibly realistic grace. The worlds built around them were utterly unreal, but solid and substantial. I know this first-hand. I had the pleasure of collaborating with Steve on 18 stories, tasking his imagination to build medieval
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Paul Levitz This tribute by the comics writer who was, just a few years ago, the longrunning president of DC Comics, isn’t really about visits to Steve Ditko’s studio… but Paul did meet with the artist in person, a number of times over the years. One of the fruits of their encounters was the Stalker sword-andsorcery series, a page of which (from issue #1, June-July 1975) is depicted here, courtesy of Nick Caputo. The detail from a 1985 photo of Levitz is courtesy of Bob Rozakis. [Page TM & © DC Comics.]
worlds, hell, a fantasy dimension, and a galactic empire, and it was always a delight to see the pages as they came in. The work was always personal, distinctive, the storytelling crystal clear, and the environments he created so deeply imagined that you could almost walk into them. Call it skill, talent, or a special gift, it was distinctively Ditko. Each world, each creature, was unique and completely unrealistically real. So perhaps he had a reason for keeping his private life private. Perhaps behind that simple door to his studio was a genuine gateway to other worlds that only he could open, whether by magic or science. Implausible, perhaps, but so was the work, wasn’t it? Maybe the secret of Steve Ditko was just a bit more complicated than we could ever imagine.
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STEVE DITKO
Interview–1968 Conducted by Mike & Rich Howell and Mark Canterbury
A/E
EDITOR’S NOTE: This interview, which was conducted by mail, first appeared in the fanzine Marvel Main #4 (Oct.-Nov. 1968). It has been reprinted with the permission of Mike & Rich Howell. At our request, Mike wrote the new introduction below, which immediately precedes the interview. Alas, Mark Canterbury, who asked a few questions of his own, passed on several years ago. The interview was retyped for Alter Ego by Eric Nolen-Weathington.
Steve Ditko & Richard Howell The former, on left, in the mid-1960s—and the latter, on right, in a more recent photo (though, alas, we have none of his brother Michael or of Mark Canterbury). Above them is Rich’s cover for Marvel Main #4. [Heroes TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Part I - Introduction
How Steve Ditko Talked To Marvel Main by Mike Howell, founding editor of Marvel Main
T
he summer of 1968 was one of the most historic in American culture. Along with assassinations, demonstrations, and presidential elections, another, quieter, bit of upheaval was taking place: Steve Ditko was bringing out new characters and often-polarizing stories. News of this tectonic change in the national comics industry was spread by the Blue Blazer Irregulars who made up the nascent comic fan community through their network of choice: the fanzine. Through a combination of idle determination, sincere respect for Ditko’s work, and an elevated sense of mission, I directed my self-published mimeographed fanzine, Marvel Main, toward trying
to get a “big name” interview. And we got a beauty, from Steve Ditko. How difficult was that? you might wonder. Well, if you were a sheltered, suburban 14-year-old it was really quite a challenge. To start, I had no idea where (although New York City was a starting guess) or how to locate Ditko. My trips to the big city of Boston helped me learn the subway system and become familiar with Filene’s Basement and its automatic markdown policy that was catnip to my mother. When my brother Richard and I accompanied her there, we almost always were rewarded with a Tintin book, so braving the crowds had its perks, but that didn’t get us any closer to Steve Ditko. A bit of background. Our core fan group was very tightly held: myself, my brother Richard, and our next-door neighbor, Mark Canterbury. We shared a delight in comics and absurdist humor and quirky corners of what would grow into America’s pop culture. The fact that we all sucked at sports and that dating, etc., seemed decades away helped with our hermetic association. Our impulse to keep ourselves amused led each of us to found a self-published
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From Marvel Main #4
magazine-in-search-of-an-audience. I guided Marvel Main, Mark captained Heckzapoppin’, and Richard, prolific as always, handled multiple projects. In time, we found kindred spirits in two somewhat local guys—Martin Greim and Bob Cosgrove—who were older than we were and who helped us to learn more of the ways of comics and self-publishing. Other than that, we were busy trying to see who could come up with the coin to subscribe to RBCC. Alter Ego was a bridge too far. People today tend to define Western Civilization as “before the Internet and the world as we know it.” While that is certainly true (if nothing else, having the Internet in 1968 would have greatly saved on paper, printing, and mailing costs), our largest technology disadvantage was simple: long-distance calls. In those days, your (parents’) phone service gave you free calls to your town and the ones contiguous to it. Great if you needed to call Lynn or Revere; not much help in blind-calling New York City. (Did I mention that those calls cost more the further away you dialed? Atavistic concept, I know. Not easy to explain when Dad gets the phone bill.) The Canterbury household was run considerably more loosely than the Howell one (to be fair, so was the Prussian Army). Teamwork Uber Alles, we proclaimed, and laid siege to Mark’s extension phone. Here’s where things get a tad hazy. In my idealized memory, I figured out two very important facts: Ditko is an unusual name, and it didn’t cost anything to call Directory Assistance. Armed with that knowledge, we came up with a 212 number in fairly short order. Now came the tricky parts. Call the number and the meter starts running as soon as you hear “Hello.” OK, that meant calls must be made from Mark’s enclave. Second, once we’d ascertained that we had reached THE Steve Ditko, what the hell do we say to him? We went for it. Several times we’d ring the number but it went unanswered. Was it out-of-date? Out-ofservice? Had Ditko left New York City ? the comics industry? It was a cool idea, but….
“Yes, this is Steve Ditko.” Our plan was to interview him over the phone, but Ditko wasn’t having it. Very politely, he said he would answer our questions in writing if we submitted them to him in writing as well. Absolutely, Mr. Ditko, and thankyouthankyouthankyou. We immediately convened our (hare-)brain trust, debated how far to press him on his Marvel past, and whether it was worth Ayn Rand questions. Rather quickly, we came up with a way too long list of questions, typed them up and sent them off. Reading the published interview now, it appears that each of us took turns asking a burst of questions, then ceding the floor to the next in line. The interview was submitted as written questions without any designation of who was asking what. Ditko could answer (or skip) any question in any order it pleased him. My best guess is that we added the “question credits” as a way to share the accomplishment of interviewing Ditko among us. Middle school kids don’t get many brushes with fame, however that’s defined. After what seemed like forever, a large envelope was delivered from NYC. (Did we have the savvy to have supplied a postage-paid envelope to our honored Cover Subject? Since SSAE was common in those circles, I’d like to think we did.) Inside, page after page of Ditko’s thoughts on lined paper. Our subscribers would be elated! Our reputation would grow! We’d finally step forward to create the type of observation, reporting, and insightful opinions to make Marvel Main the Time magazine of the comicbook world! Well, not quite. It’s true that Marvel Main #4 sold more than any (or perhaps all) previous issues, but that was still short of our press run of 25. More significantly, all three of us were headed off to new— and significantly more demanding—schools. Cars and girls were
Comics’ Main Man Rich’s 1968 art bookended a two-page spread that began the interview. By the 1980s, Rich became an artist for DC and Marvel, working on such features as All-Star Squadron, Hawkman, The Vision and the Scarlet Witch, et al. [Heroes TM & © respectively Marvel Characters, Inc., DC Comics, & Estate of Steve Ditko.]
Steve Ditko Interview—1968
starting to look like possibilities as well. There never was a Marvel Main #5. Please do not think I’ve fallen into the asinine attitude that comics are something you somehow “outgrow.” My lifelong fandom and Richard’s wide-ranging professional career give lie to that. It was only about ten years ago when it came to my attention that the Marvel Main interview was a rarity; it was only when The New York Times started to pull together Ditko’s obituary (a task they seemed ill-prepared for) that its historical value became apparent. Which is why the trail comes to Roy and Dann and Alter Ego and observations of not only his own creations but thoughts on how art reflects or shapes the real world it comes from. From those turbulent times to the ones banging on our windows at this moment. —Mike Howell April 2019
P.S.: No, none of us had the sense of history to save Ditko’s handwritten responses. Yes, I still feel stupid about that.
Part II – The Interview MIKE HOWELL: Your last two or three strips (“Question,” “Mr. A,” The Creeper) have all dealt with reporters and mobster-type crime. Is this a personal crusade of yours? STEVE DITKO: Reporters have an easier, more natural way of getting involved with all types of crime. They are not restricted with set routines or limited in their scope of activities. I prefer conflicts that are based on reality rather than based on fantasy. When you get wound up with super-villains, super-fantastic gadgets, and super-incredible action, everything has to be made so deliberately that it all becomes senseless. It boils down to what you want a story to stand for.
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MH: During your years at Marvel, you were only depicted once, and that time by your own hand (Spider-Man Special #1), whereas you were left out of the Bullpen photos (Marvel Tales #1) and the record (MMMS Kit #1). Was this by your own choice? DITKO: Yes. MH: In the 1967 Comics Awards Poll conducted by noted fans Mike Robertson and Ted Billy, you usurped such greats as Kirby, Wood, Frazetta, and Williamson. By a substantial margin too. (16 over the second-place Kirby.) How do you feel about this, and how do you think it happened? DITKO: This is the first time I’ve heard of the poll, but I don’t feel anything in particular because it doesn’t affect me in any way. A poll only means that X number of people prefer one to another. It doesn’t make one a better artist. Good art or anything cannot be decided by a poll, popularity, or likes and dislikes. A preference is not a standard for what is good or right. Everything has to be measured with a clearly defined, appropriate standard. People’s likes or dislikes or preferences may change, but it can’t affect a proper standard that remains unaltered. I don’t know why each person voted the way they did. MH: Did anyone or anything particularly influence your style? DITKO: The biggest thing influencing my style would be that I see things in a certain way, and that means handling everything so that personally point of view comes across. MH: When did you break into comics, and who did you first work for? DITKO: In 1953. A very small publishing company. I don’t even remember the company’s name. MH: Out of all the characters that you have created, which is the best extension of your thoughts and beliefs? Why? DITKO: The Question (and Mr. A; I can’t seem to separate the two). Why: they are positive characters, not negative. They stand for something. They know what they stand for and why they must make that stand. They are not just against something. Every criminal in the world is opposed to himself being robbed or murdered, but do these criminals stand for justice? Being against something isn’t enough. Every person, whether he wants to be or not, is in a continuous struggle. It’s not a physical life or death struggle, yet it’s a threat to every man’s survival.
The Doctor Is Still In! As a tribute to Ditko soon after his passing, the Italian firm Panini Publishing put out a special edition (“Vol. 7, #7, Oct. 2018”) of the onetime Marvel UK mainstay magazine, Mighty World of Marvel, with a cover spotlighting Ditko’s Doctor Strange. Thanks to Robert Menzies. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.] Rich Howell writes: “I was very saddened to read about Ditko… although 90 is pretty good these days. I remember walking down the street in Manhattan past one of those immense over-air-conditioned chain stores and seeing several immense 3-D constructions of Spider-Man, Dr. Octopus, and someone else (The Vulture?) hanging off the side of the building. Most of the tourists were impressed, I suppose, but I wondered what Steve Ditko would be thinking of his co-creations made into huge media presences as he walked past them every day. “I worked with Ditko a whole twice, and in each case he was argumentative to the point of mutiny, so I had some comprehension of why he wasn’t part of the Spider-gravy-train (some of which was by his own decision, I understand), but for him to have contributed so much to the bedrock of the Marvel empire and not [be] sharing in its flourishing… well, it just makes me sad.”
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From Marvel Main #4
First If Not Foremost Maybe Steve Ditko didn’t remember precisely which comics companies he worked for first, but we do. (Above:) His first published story was “Paper Romance” in Stanmor’s Daring Love #1 (Sept.-Oct. 1953), from which the above panel is taken—see splash on p. 6. (Right:) But even before that, for Ajax/ Farrell, he had drawn the already-masterful “Stretching Things” for Fantastic Fears #5 (Jan. 1954), the splash of which was likewise seen on p. 6. Thanks to the Comic Book Plus website. [© the respective copyright holders.]
No man has to battle or fear the supernatural; it doesn’t exist. No man has to fight or fear creatures from outer space. No man has to battle foreign armies. The country’s armed forces are prepared for that possibility. A man’s battle isn’t against foreign conspiracies; the FBI and CIA are set up and equipped to deal with that threat. The police are equipped to deal with crime. Health problems are battled by the medical profession. Against any of the above dangers, no man has to face them alone. But in that one continuous struggle, man has to constantly face the danger alone. No one can face it or fight it for him. It is the struggle for his mind! It is the struggle against everyone he comes in contact with. It is a struggle to keep his mind from being corrupted and being ruled by irrational premises. A man is what he stands for—why is it right to stand for it, and to protect and defend it, all the time? In the struggle, a man can lose only if he gives in, defeated by self-destruction, by accepting the wrong as right—to act against himself. Honest men, like dishonest men, are made. The honest refuse to accept wrong as right; the dishonest refuse to accept right as right. Each deliberately makes a choice. This struggle is not openly recognized. Accepting lies, dishonesty, etc., or practicing evasions, etc., are not criminal acts. Nothing but a man’s own mind can protect him from accepting and practicing the irrational, and suffering from its corrupting effects, but a man has to choose to do it. This is the premise that “The Question” and “Mr. A” are based on. Evil is powerless. A mind that refuses to accept or defend the truth, by that act, permits lies to exist, to give them respectability and influence, thereby undercutting and eventually destroying everything that is of real value. Destroyed, not by the power of evil, but by the good’s refusal to protect itself against an enemy that could exist only with good’s permission.
A man’s refusal to understand the issue changes nothing. If a man doesn’t know why a thing is right or wrong, he has no defenses—he’s vulnerable. He has no standard by which to measure, accept, or reject any proposition. The Question and Mr. A are men who choose to know what is right and act accordingly at all times. Everyone should. MH: Did any particular comic you’ve done cramp your style? DITKO: Style is not what you do (type of story), but how you handle it (rendering). I could be cramped by the subject. In doing, say, a World War II story, whereas in a science-fiction tale, whatever I draw doesn’t have to look like anything that ever existed. The rendering (style) wouldn’t be affected, one or more aspects of it will be emphasized—more or less light and shade, detail, etc. MH: You’re referred to around fandom as “Steve Ditko, man of mystery.” Can you explain why there is a shroud of mystery surrounding yourself? Was this intentional, or did it just happen? DITKO: It just happens because I’m a cartoonist in the comicbook business, not a performer or personality in show business. When I do a job, it’s not my personality that I’m offering the readers, but my artwork. It’s not what I’m like that counts, [but] what I did and how well it was done. I produce a product, a comic art story. Steve Ditko is the brand name. I make no mystery of what I do, and where I can properly explain why I do what I do (like in this fanzine), I’ll do it. If a
Steve Ditko Interview—1968
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I’m not a professional writer, so it’s difficult to be properly objective about the writing, and to spot and correct mistakes. It’s easier to write or handle fantasy than to put forth a new stand that has to be clearly defined and consistently followed in everything that is said and done. It demands logical progression in thought and deed deliberately ignored in most comic stories. Most of the art had to be deliberately underplayed. The panel scenes had to be interesting, but not overly dramatic. The major conflict was a clash of right and wrong.
“A” “Question” Two characters that Ditko sometimes said he “can’t seem to separate” and at other times claimed to be totally unrelated. (Left:) “The Question,” from a mid-1960s Charlton comic. (Right:) The hero of his 2017 self-published (with Robin Snyder) comic Steve Ditko’s Mr. A #24. [Question page TM & © DC Comics; Mr. A page TM & © Estate of Steve Ditko.]
person knows the what and why’s, he knows all about the “who” that is important to know. MH: What strip do you enjoy doing the most? DITKO: “The Question” and “Mr. A.” MH: Most of us are well acquainted with your fantasy stories, which were exceptionally philosophical, and created a lot of empathy with the characters. Did you write them yourself? Did you enjoy doing them?
The biggest threat and danger was not physical, but the destructive effects of spreading and unchallengingly accepting lies of minds run by irrationality by choice or default. Over-dramatic would’ve undercut conflict.
MH: Who, besides yourself, did, in your opinion, the best job of inking your pencils? DITKO: I couldn’t say who without listing all the others and listing the why’s and why-nots. RICH HOWELL: Why did you quit Creepy and Eerie? Will you ever contribute again?
DITKO: I wish you had listed some specific ones so that I’d know exactly what to comment on.
DITKO: I don’t know the full story of what went on at Warren, so I can’t comment on it. As for the future, I don’t know that, either.
MH: What strip was the easiest you ever did? The hardest?
RH: Art-wise, do you prefer the regular comics or the Warren line, where you can do washes?
DITKO: No strip is easy for me to do, for I draw for a tough critic—for me. I have to do what I think is right, and it has to be done in a way that excites me, so it’s hard to settle for something that would be easy to do. I believe in telling a picture story so that, (1) The panels have to be clear. I have to show what’s going on. I want to know. (2) They have to be interesting. I don’t believe in boring myself while I draw. The hardest to draw were “The Question” and “Mr. A” because, before I drew a line, I had to make them positive characters. To know what they stood for, why it is right to make that stand, and to act the way they did, to have solid reasons, so I could prove their positions and actions if I was ever challenged. They had to be a man. A hero in the honest use of the word. Strength not because of “super” powers, but a strength of acting on proper principles. Not a contrived strength of muscle, but a strength of right knowledge. No innocent people can suffer or be abused or penalized because of what the Question and Mr. A stand for.
DITKO: I like them both. I even like to do stories in just pen and ink without color or wash. All stories are not suited for wash, but those that have the right element and mood are hard to beat in that medium. RH: Did you plot the stories you did for Warren? DITKO: No, I worked from a script. RH: Besides yourself, who do you regard as the five best artists in comicdom? DITKO: That question is too difficult to answer and be fair. You have to set up and give a standard on how you judge the artist, and there are too many factors to be considered, and they don’t fit every artist the same way. Artists fall into too many categories. Some are pencillers, some are inkers, some do both. Some artists specialize
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From Marvel Main #4
I think it would be more interesting and revealing to ask comic readers why they didn’t buy it. RH: Are there any plans to revive “Blue Beetle” and “The Question,” and will you do them? DITKO: Only Charlton Press can answer that. MARK CANTERBURY: There is a strong similarity between “The Question” and “Mr. A.” Is this intentional? Why? DITKO: I had been thinking about a type of character that would be different, or that would be a step ahead of what was being done ever since the early Spider-Man days. The kind I decided on was the Mr. A type. When Blue Beetle got his own magazine, they needed a companion feature for it. I didn’t want to do Mr. A, because I didn’t think the Code would let me do the type of stories I wanted to do, so I worked up The Question, using the basic idea of a man who was motivated by basic black and white principles. Where other “heroes’” powers are based on some accidental super element, The Question and Mr. A’s “power” is deliberately knowing what is right and acting accordingly. But it is one of choice. Of choosing to know what is right and choosing to act on that knowledge in all his thoughts and actions with everyone he deals with. No conflict or contradiction in his behavior in either identity. He isn’t afraid to know or refuse to act on what is right no matter in what situation he finds himself. Where other heroes choose to be self-made neurotics, The Question and Mr. A choose to be psychologically and intellectually healthy. It’s a choice everyone has to make. MC: Would you give us some person data? Age, marital status, children, etc.?
Spaced Out!
DITKO: It’s like you said… a man of mystery!
Ditko enjoyed doing non-series stories for the likes of Warren’s Creepy and Eerie—as he had for Charlton’s Space Adventures #11 (May-June 1954). Thanks to Frank Motler. [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
in the type of story they do (romance, war, super-heroes, etc.). Some types demand more or less imagination, or draftsmanship (war, fantasy), and the artist has to be judged accordingly. The artist has to be separated from the popularity of the strip, personality, etc. He can only be judged by his artwork, and that has to be broken down into storytelling, draftsmanship, composition, imagination, rendering, etc. Some artists are good in some phases, poor in others. You have to weigh the separate parts with the total effect, then try to separate the art (in black and white as the artist does it) from the effects or appeal of coloring (that the artist Beetle-mania does not do and is not responsible for). So it’s much simpler for Interrupted anyone to pick his own favorites—the ones that give him the Ditko—and most enjoyment—and let the serious art critics struggle with his most the burden of deciding who is the better artist. enthusiastic RH: What inspired the new Blue Beetle? Why do you think it didn’t sell? DITKO: I was looking over the first Blue Beetle that Charlton Press put out, and it was terrible. I began thinking how it could have been handled. The ideas I had were good, so I marked them down, made sketches of the costume, gadgets, the bug, etc., and put them in an idea folder I have, and forgot about it. A year or so later, when Charlton Press was again planning to do super-heroes, I told Dick Giordano about the Blue Beetle” idea I had. He was interested in trying it, so it came out of the idea file, and into the magazine.
fans—enjoyed his work on Charlton’s revived Blue Beetle, but alas, it ended with this issue, #5, cover-dated November 1968. Thanks to the Grand Comics Database. [TM & © DC Comics.]
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“A Very Mysterious Character” An Essay On STEVE DITKO by Barry Pearl Barry Pearl seen some years back, when his older brother Norman was teaching him to read. Thanks to BP.
O
“You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view…until you climb in his skin and walk around in it.” —Atticus Finch, Harper Lee’s To Kill a Mockingbird.
ne day a man will ring your doorbell and offer you CELEBRITY! He will offer you fame and fortune and recognition. He will fight your battles for you and gear up the troops to go after your perceived enemies.
And all you have to do is give him everything you have… your privacy, your intimate moments, your private thoughts, your old artwork, your new artwork, and details from events fifty years old. You’ll be expected to show up at conventions and sit and autograph comics that someone will sell tomorrow on eBay and sit in on panel after panel examining your work from fifty years ago and dismissing what you are working on now. There are those who accept the offer, love the money and attention, but then complain about the lack of privacy and the wave of criticism. Those who don’t take it are called eccentric, outsiders, has-beens, and hard to work with. With their subject out of the limelight, people can write newspaper articles and books saying outrageous things that bring publicity onto themselves, knowing
their subject will not bother to respond. They will tell you that they tried to get Ditko to cooperate with them, but it is never unconditional. They want something from him: his opinions, his personality, and most of all his approval. They will have people who never meet him write about him, make claims about him, and, by keeping him out of it, they seem to validate their own absurd remarks. This is not journalism; in fact, it is not even common sense. Some people’s work speaks for itself. In the world of serious comicbooks, no one’s work speaks more for itself than Steve Ditko’s.
Steve Ditko Here’s a rare photo of the artist in 1963 with his nephews Mark (on the left) and his older brother Steve—yep, another Steve Ditko! With thanks to Mark Ditko, via John Cimino. This pic came in just before we went to press.
The Marvel Age of Comics was built on Jack Kirby’s creativity, Steve Ditko’s ingenuity, and Stan Lee’s continuity. Jack Kirby gave wonder to the Marvel Universe. Steve Ditko gave it awe. Kirby externalized the quest for knowledge, Ditko internalized it. On a journey to the Infinite, Kirby took us to the outer reaches of the universe. On a journey to find Eternity, Ditko took us into the minds of the Ancient One and Doctor Strange. In Doctor Strange’s first adventure in Strange Tales #110, Ditko introduces us to Nightmare, a villain that personifies an anxiety that we all share. Ditko places us in another dimension, one that exists in all of us, where the laws of physics are not relevant or even observed. Soon, this will be developed into the intangible home of Dormammu and all that follow. The Hulk is a great example of Ditko recognizing what made a character work and what didn’t. When Kirby introduced him, his change was caused by external factors, dusk and dawn, and later a machine. Ditko’s Hulk changed that to an internal issue, uncontrollable anger. This made the Hulk unique among
He Rode A Blazing Western! The Rawhide Kid (as re-conceived by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby in the early 1960s) and Peter Parker/Spider-Man may indeed have had similar origin stories as Barry suggests. But Steve Ditko never drew Rawhide Kid, so we’ll just toss you the splash page of a Ditko-illustrated “Utah Kid” story from Timor Publications’ Blazing Western #1 (Jan. 1954). Barry’s buddy Nick Caputo, who supplied it, says that the “Utah Kid” references are “crudely lettered” (like, the “H” looks ready to fall off!)—and he does bear more than a passing resemblance to Timely/ Atlas’ Ringo Kid—so could this have been an art sample that went astray and wound up at another company? We’ll doubtless never know. [© the respective copyright holders.]
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An Essay On Steve Ditko
the reader identify with him and have complete empathy for the character. That’s right; you rooted for a creation of pen and ink. When things seemed to work out with girlfriend Betty you felt good, and when trouble arose between them you got concerned. When they broke up, it didn’t just break Peter’s heart, it broke yours, too. Unique to the comics of that time, Peter Parker’s girlfriend, Betty, had a terrible family history. Her worthless, criminal brother, Bennett, owed money for gambling, and Betty was forced to borrow money from the mob. She was first attacked by the Enforcers and later confronted by Doctor Octopus.
“The Unexamined Life Is Not Worth Living” Daily Bugle publisher J. Jonah Jameson explains—to himself, at least—why he hates Spider-Man, in AMS #10 (March 1964). Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
comicbook characters and disturbingly compelling. In a small but meaningful way, we are made to examine the question of “control” and how its loss can lead to unwanted consequences. Ditko also changed the character of Bruce Banner. Kirby’s Banner worked for the government and built bombs; Ditko’s Banner ran away from the government and then tried to prove himself loyal. The Rawhide Kid, in August 1960, had a similar origin to Spider-Man, which would follow in August 1962. A teenager, Johnny Bart, was raised by his Uncle Ben and gained great ability as a marksman. Bad guys kill his uncle and Johnny adopts a new identity, The Rawhide Kid, to track them down. Because the Kid is a vigilante, the good guys as well as the bad go after the new hero. The saga of Spider-Man also uses all these concepts. Heck, without Ditko, Spider-Man could have turned out to be another Ant-Man! To a child in and of the 1960s, at first glance, the sight of a human looking like an insect walking up walls did not seem unique. Simon and Kirby had presented The Adventures of The Fly, who could scale sheer vertical surfaces, for Archie Comics in 1958. To say that Spider-Man was connected in any way to The Fly is silly. But to say that Ditko didn’t learn from reading those stories would be just as misleading. Some of the poses that Spider-Man has in the early issues are not dissimilar from Kirby’s in The Fly. I was introduced to Ditko by his short, five-page stories in Amazing Fantasy, Tales of Suspense, and other Marvel anthology titles. I quickly learned that it did not bode well for someone if they were too rich or too greedy and appeared on a Ditko splash page. Of course, it was always to be their own actions that caused their bad endings. And we often saw their reaction to that. Ditko, who seems never to have worked from a finished script at Marvel, took an outline by Stan Lee and created a unique mood, style, and story line for one of the greatest characters in fiction. Not just in comicbook fiction, but in popular fiction. Few others created as much emotional impact in their work, an effect often due to his expert pacing. Ditko made Spider-Man complex and compelling. It was truly a one-of-a-kind artistic achievement. Like Clark Kent, bespectacled Peter Parker worked for a great metropolitan newspaper and was interested in a co-worker. But that’s where the similarities end. Parker was a character no one had seen before. To Peter Parker it wasn’t a day job. He didn’t punch in every day. Betty Brant was not a co-worker. She worked at the place where Peter sold his pictures. The emotional threads that Ditko wove into the story arcs were powerful and unforgettable and you never, ever thought the stories were anything like Superman… or anything else. The interactions Parker had with the cast of characters Ditko introduced made
J. Jonah Jameson had a unique vendetta against Spider-Man. In issue #10, J.J.J. admitted that, although he had money and promoted causes, he was jealous of Spider-Man, who risked his life to save people, getting nothing in return; he just wanted to do the right thing. This was complex thinking for a 1960s comic. These were mature concepts, not seen in comics since the Comics Code had been implemented in 1955. I was too young when “Doctor Strange” debuted in Strange Tales #110, and I didn’t fully appreciate it. The world therein was askew and the characters didn’t look right. Then, one rainy day years later, I reread all of his published adventures (midway through to the Eternity saga) and realized its brilliance. Ditko showed that comics were not just for kids but for adults. Doctor Strange’s powers did not come from cosmic rays, freak lightning bolts, or radioactive insects. His power was knowledge and how to use it. He read, he studied, and he practiced his profession. Strange reads the book of Vishanti in Strange Tales #120 (May 1964) to find a solution. He then visits a haunted mansion to eliminate its ghosts. This is the last time a New York City doctor ever made a house call. When “Doctor Strange” appeared in Strange Tales #110, I figured Ditko was reworking the magician idea that we had seen in comics with such as Mandrake and Zatarra. He reimagined them just as he did with the Hulk and Iron Man. I just assumed that Ditko wanted to re-work Doctor Droom, the mystic hero that had appeared in Amazing Adventures #1, who was drawn by Jack Kirby and inked by Ditko. I was wrong. We know now that Steve plotted and drew that first story and then gave it to Stan. The series started off a bit slow, but interesting, as a five-page filler. Stan Lee wrote (in The Comic Reader #16, 1963): “Well, we have a new character in the works for Strange Tales, just a 5-page filler named Dr. Strange. Steve Ditko is gonna draw him. It has sort of a black magic theme. The first story is nothing great, but perhaps we can make something of him. ’Twas Steve’s idea; I figured we’d give it a chance, although again, we had to rush the first one too much.” “Doctor Strange” graduated from filler to being the first double feature of the Marvel Age because it was brilliantly done. When the segment grew to ten pages, it allowed stories to become more complex and characters to be developed. In fact, the 170-page story that started in Strange Tales #130 remains a highlight of complexity, emotion, and storytelling of the Marvel Age. It became one of the most memorable story arcs of the era and it helped usher in the concept of longer stories, which has evolved into the graphic novel. Doctor Strange was a brilliant character, magical and mystical, with no real history. As his collections have been released in Masterworks and Essentials, I have suggested to people not to read Strange Tales #115, “The Origin of Doctor Strange,” until they have finished the other stories. Unlike many other comics heroes, Doctor Strange does not have a backstory; no parents, no friends, and no baggage. Peter Parker had an uncle and aunt and had lost his parents, Superman
“A Very Mysterious Character”
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(in Tales to Astonish #59, the issue preceding the “Hulk” series in that mag), we see that the cause of Banner’s transformation is simply high blood pressure. The heck with gamma rays… had he stayed away from salt, he would have been okay.
Who Was That Masked Monster? The unmasking of the Hulk, in The Incredible Hulk #6 (March 1963). Script by Stan Lee, art by Steve Ditko. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
came from another planet. Doctor Strange just showed up, just him and The Ancient One. They were just there. (Somehow, this seemed fitting for their world. Things just happened; there was no long and convoluted explanation, which comics often had.) Throughout the years, there have been discussions, among comicbook fans, on the influence of Stan Lee on the origin of Doctor Strange. In the origin story, the only glimpse we see of a history, we see that he was once a skilled but arrogant surgeon who injured his hands. He learns the mystic arts and seeks redemption for his past life and acts. Redemption was a very common theme in most of Stan Lee’s works. Daredevil, Thor, Iron Man, and so many others sought redemption. This includes Peter Parker. Stan Lee mentions in the letter’s column in Strange Tales #115 that fans felt that an origin story was necessary. My only disappointment with Doctor Strange is that the final chapter of Ditko’s epic seventeen-issue story arc, in Strange Tales #146, “The End at Last!,” leaves one with the impression of having been rushed. He was leaving Marvel and must have felt that he owed the fans a conclusion and could not leave without giving them one. Ditko seemed to be the “go to” guy at Marvel. Ditko was aware of what comics were out there and what was working and what was not. It seemed to me that if something wasn’t working right, they brought it to him to fix. Ditko was able to understand the fundamental nature of the character, and even if he changed things, Ditko kept its essence. Ditko took Iron Man out of a bulky, heavy costume and made him into the sleek, colorful jet-setting modern playboy.
Ditko gave the Hulk his anger management issues. By introducing Major Talbot he not only gave Banner an adversary but he also gave him a motivator. Talbot accuses Banner of being a communist or at least working with them. To prove that he is not, to prove that he is a loyal American, Banner now continues his research to make more weapons. We don’t feel that he is doing this absent of consequences, but he is doing it to show that he is loyal. Also, he is showing himself that while part of him may be destructive, he is also a worthwhile person, not inventing anything for personal gain, but for the good of his country. In contrast to Doctor Strange, Spider-Man had a detailed back story. This indicates that Strange’s lack of one was deliberate, for even when the stories became longer, his past was not addressed. Spidey suffered great consequences from not stopping that burglar. He lost his uncle and his aunt lost her husband. Their finances were destroyed for years. In the era of Batman and Dick Tracy where villains were misshapen, grotesque, and often looked like their evil names, Ditko took a more unsettling route. His villains look like normal people; they weren’t overly ugly with distorted features, although some did wear masks. Most of his villains—The Green Goblin, Crime-Master, Mysterio, Electro, Sandman, and even The Enforcers, looked human, but menacing. So the real villains in Spider-Man’s world could be your neighbors. Steve Ditko kept a chart on his wall that clearly outlined the Spider-Man storyline for the next three or four issues. To him, criminals were little men, almost faceless like Frederick Foswell, in Amazing Spider-Man. One of my favorite stories is “The Man in the Crime-Master’s Mask!” (issues #26-27). This was a two-part story that had me guessing for 40 pages. It’s a brilliant concept: a whodunit with a high-powered villain being someone no one even knew, and therefore no one would suspect. Years later, when I would hear these strange rumors that Ditko left Marvel over a conflict about the identity of The Green Goblin, I would also be told that Ditko wanted it to be no one we had ever seen. Ditko would never do that. He would never repeat a theme that he had just done a year earlier. For example, in #36, Norman Osborn, while holding a rifle, threatens to go after some people. I think that was a clue.
Ditko’s work on “The Incredible Hulk” was frankly incredible. He took a character whose own book had failed and made him interesting and compelling. Jack Kirby had said that he had modeled the Hulk after the Frankenstein monster. The Hulk behaves very much like that monster and is treated very much the same: an innocent haunted and hunted by people. At first, the Hulk seemed more like the Wolf Man, because he turned into an uncontrolled creature at night. The first five issues lacked consistency. It was also hard to like Bruce Banner because, like Tony Stark, he was a weapons manufacturer, a brilliant bomb maker, and a bit of a dweeb. (Whereas Clark Kent and later Spider-Man pretended to be meek and mild, Banner actually was.) In The Avengers #3, Banner turns into the Hulk when he is calm and sleeping and back to Banner when he gets upset. When Dick Ayers drew the Hulk
And This Guy? The Crime-Master is unmasked as—nobody you ever saw or heard of before, in Amazing SpiderMan #27 (Aug. 1965). Script by Lee, art & plot by Ditko. Hard to believe that Ditko really planned to pull that stunt again with The Green Goblin, so Stan probably had his conversations with Steve a bit mixed up. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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An Essay On Steve Ditko
really didn’t change his environment. He still had Flash Thompson in his classroom, antagonistic as always, and blonde Liz Allen was replaced by blonde Gwen Stacy. Ditko probably did not want this change, because he did not want to lose his characters, so he kept them despite the change in locale from high school to college. What, for instance, was Flash Thompson, in college on an athletic scholarship, doing in the same science and chemistry classes as (science major) Peter Parker? No one held his ear to the ground to sense what the fans were thinking more than Stan Lee. Comicbooks had begun losing their adult male audience in 1945, when WWII ended. Now, on college campuses, Marvel was getting them back, as evidenced by Esquire’s choosing Spider-Man and the Hulk as two of the people who counted on campus in 1966. Stan Lee wanted to keep his characters relevant and popular in this new market. In 2015, in the Robin Snyder/Steve Ditko Four-Page Publication, Ditko clearly explains why he left Marvel in November 1965. It had nothing to do with The Green Goblin.
Graduation Day J. Jonah Jameson gives the graduation speech to Peter Parker’s high school class in Amazing Spider-Man #28 (Sept. ’65), by Lee & Ditko—or Ditko & Lee, if you prefer. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
In the New York Herald Tribune’s magazine at the turn of 1966, Stan said: “I don’t plot Spider-Man any more. Steve Ditko, the artist, has been doing the stories. I guess I’ll leave him alone until sales start to slip. Since Spidey got so popular, Ditko thinks he’s the genius of the world. We were arguing so much over plot lines I told him to start making up his own stories. He won’t let anybody else ink his drawings, either. He just drops off the finished pages with notes at the margins and I fill in the dialogue. I never know what he’ll come up with next, but it’s interesting to work that way.” There have been many articles and references over the years regarding Ditko and his identification with Spider-Man and Doctor Strange. Well, he did name Doctor Strange Stephen, didn’t he? Many assume that Ditko identified with his heroes. If so, did J. Jonah Jameson, a cheap, penny-pinching publisher who insisted that all stories be written from his point of view, represent Martin Goodman or Stan Lee or an amalgam of both? Of course, if this is true, does that make Flo Steinberg the model for Betty Brant, J.J.J.’s secretary and Parker’s first girlfriend? J.J.J. was to become a direct threat to Spider-Man. Earlier, J.J.J. worked in the background to encourage villains to stop Spidey. This changed with issue #25. This was the first time J.J.J. became the actual face of a villain when he manned the Spider-Man-seeking robot. Perhaps Ditko felt that was just what Goodman and Lee were doing. But Lee and Ditko had stopped talking to each other about one year before Ditko left Marvel. He would draw the pages and send, or bring, them in for Lee to add his dialogue. By issue #35 (Apr 1966), Peter Parker is deserted by friends, threatened by unseen enemies, and feeling isolated. Steve Ditko was plotting the books by himself and there is none of Lee’s exuberance or optimism in the character or the stories. If there was any regret in Spider-Man for me, it was the way his graduation and entrance to college took place. It was common in comics to have change without really having change, to give the appearance that something is new and different but it kind of stays the same. When Parker went to college, it changed the scenery but it
Steve Ditko: “I always picked up pages from Stan, he’d tell me about anything to change, add, etc.” Until one day, he continues, “I went to the Marvel office. Silent Sol [Brodsky] handed me the pages to ink… NO comment about anything. I left with the pages. I inked the pages, took them in, Sol again took the pages from me and into Stan’s office—came out saying nothing—and I left…. I always wrote down any ideas that came to me about the supporting characters, any possible, usable story idea. At some point after they had been dialogued and lettered, I got my original, penciled pages back and inked them. That became our working system on S-M and DS. One day I got a call from Sol. The next S-M annual is coming up.… I asked myself, “Why should I do it?” Why should I continue to do all these monthly issues, original story ideas, material, for a man who is too scared, too angry over something, to even see, talk to me?...at some point, I decided to quit Marvel.” In 1975, Stan said in the Fantasy Advertiser: “Steve was a very mysterious character. When he first started he was the easiest character we ever had to work with. I used to think that if everybody was as easy to work with as Steve, it would be great. I would call him in the middle of the night with an emergency ten-page script and Steve would bring it in the very next day without a complaint. He was just beautiful. But, little by little, he became tougher and tougher to work with. After a while he’d say to me, ‘Gee, Stan, I don’t like those plots you are writing for Spider-Man.’ So I’d say okay, because I couldn’t have cared less, Steve was so good at drawing stuff, I said, ‘Use your own plot, I’ll put the dialogue in.’ So he’d do his own, and I’d switch them around, and I’d put the dialogue in and make them conform to what I wanted. Then he’d say, ‘I don’t like the sound-effects you’re putting in.’ So I told him to use his own, I didn’t mind. I’d bend over backwards to accommodate him, because he was so good and the strip was so successful. But it was like Chamberlain giving in to Hitler; the more I appeased him, the harder he got to work with. Finally, it reached the point where he didn’t even come up to the office with his artwork—he’d just mail it in. Then, one day, he said he was leaving. You now know as much about it as I do. What bothered him, I don’t know.... He’s another guy I’d take back in a minute, but I have a feeling he’d be impossible to work with.” Ditko influenced many artists, but none could ever re-create his world, try as they might. Ditko was an essential, irreplaceable part of the foundation of the Marvel Age. He was able to take a concept or character, new or old, and develop it into something completely fresh and different, even unrecognizable from its first germ of an idea. I will remember him, and miss him, for that.
Up Close & Personal With Steve Ditko!—Part 2
A Life Lived On His Own Terms
39
Encounters With Spider-Man’s Co-Creator, 1962 to 2017 by Bernie Bubnis
Bernie Bubnis with a cosplay Spidey at the New York Comic Con in October 2017—and, because this article is partly the story of Bernie’s long “hunt” for essence of the elusive Steve Ditko, an image of the iconic cover of Amazing SpiderMan #34 (May 1966). Thanks to Bernie for the photo, which was taken by his wife Lucille, and to the Grand Comics Database for the cover scan; note his “Comicon 1964” button. [Cover TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
I
first met Steve Ditko in 1962. The last time I saw him was October 2017, and that is where this story begins.
The New York Comic Con at the Javits Center was a circus of people. I was flipping through some original artwork stacked on two tables. Every other second, someone bumped into me, and it was getting crowded. So crowded that it started to bother me. A guy in a Spider-Man costume offered to climb onto my shoulders so my wife could get a better photo. Just take the photo with him next to me, please. I was ready for lunch. My wife and I left Javits and headed to a restaurant on West 52nd St. that we remembered from years ago (please, please make it still be there). Victor’s Cuban Cafe was, and it brought
back memories of joining a conga line led by Roberto Duran (Victor’s boxer cousin) and dancing into the night. Honestly, remembering a good moment in your life is a magic pill, and that led me to start remembering a lot of good moments with artist and writer Steve Ditko. Wasn’t his studio just around the corner? I had corresponded with him over the years, but those letters were too few and far between. My last in-person meeting with him had been in August 1964. I was growing up, and life’s responsibilities took control of my time. Our correspondence became more consistent in 2014, the year the NYCC would host a panel called “Survivors of the 1964 Comicon.” I knew he would want to be there... hey, what do I know... I’m a dreamer. He didn’t, but his handwritten letters would make me wait patiently for the next envelope from him to arrive in my mailbox (please, please make him answer his phone).
Boxed In Bernie and Lucille Bubnis at Victor’s Cuban Cafe that 2017 day—and a portrait of boxer Roberto Duran that hung there. Bernie recalls joining the fighter there in a conga line years earlier. Thanks to the Bubnises for both photos. We’re informed by Bernie that Roberto Duran “is still an icon to a lot of people. This portrait was in the bar area of the restaurant, and they were redoing the floors. When I showed interest in taking the photo, two workers built a shaky platform and then stood on it to take this photo for me. That is true love.”
His hearing is bad and he admits it. Mine is bad and I don’t admit it. My wife took the phone and let him know we would be coming by. His studio/ apartment was located at 1650 Broadway, and the entry was from West 51st Street. A guy at the front desk asked if we had an appointment and pointed us to the elevators. Before his floor, the doors opened and in steps someone I knew. “Steve, it’s me, Bernie!“ He looked confused, so my wife increased the volume, “IT’S BERNIE BUBNIS FROM THE 1964 COMICON!” He stared and said, “You look different.” I didn’t know if he was kidding, and I started laughing, “It’s been
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Up Close & Personal With Steve Ditko!—Part 2
over fifty years.” He grinned and said, “It matters.” We shook hands. I don’t think he was kidding. The reason he was on the elevator was because his studio did not have a bathroom. He had to go to another floor. Before he would let us in, he looked at my wife and said, “You can stay out here if you are going to take more pictures.” My wife had to bite her tongue and ego. Without saying a word, she pocketed her camera. I was so happy my wife loved me enough to not be herself at that moment. I wanted nothing to ruin this day. Nothing. I am so glad she took those photos. I can look at them now and remember the moments I had spent with Steve Ditko over a half century ago. I do not have any photos from the early days when I first met him. Just memories... just memories of a good man whose life intersected with the life of a lost kid. Memories of just why seeing him one last time was so important to me. In 1962 I found Steve Ditko’s phone number and address in the New York City Phone Directory. How many Steve Ditkos could there be? Worth the try. He answered and I tried to explain my call. “Why would you want to speak to me for your magazine?” I’m sure I must have said “fanzine,” but he was probably right, and I started to call it a magazine myself. I tried to explain, but I became flustered. I should have rehearsed this before I called. I started dropping names like Stan Lee and his then-secretary, Trudy Ross. Anything to keep him from hanging up, and he sure sounded like he was about to. “Do you have my address? Then make it after 10 during the week.” Gulp, he sounded like a teacher that never gave you good grades. I did not know where I would find the courage to show up.
“S. Ditko” That’s what the sign on the door of the artist’s studio door (as photographed in October 2017 by Lucille) has apparently always read—so maybe it wasn’t just Stan Lee’s idea (as some have speculated) that his early-’60s artistic collaborator use an initial instead of his first name on some stories. The above Ditko splash page from Amazing Adventures #4 (Sept. 1961) is signed thus—though other yarns during that same period are bylined either “Steve Ditko” or simply “Ditko.” Thanks to Barry Pearl for the art scan. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
New York City was an hour’s train ride from my suburban home on Long Island, but being there was like visiting another planet. Times Square cigarette billboards that blew smoke rings from their cutout cardboard mouths, buses that filled your lungs with exhaust, the taste lingering in your mouth, and 42nd Street looked like it stepped out of the pages of an EC comicbook. Ditko’s studio was in a gritty building just steps into the Hell’s Kitchen area on W. 43rd Street. I stood in front for at least an hour practicing my list of questions. I wrote and numbered them on a yellow pad. I kept
Ditko Plays Host (Far left:) Bernie watches as the artist opens his studio door from the outside in October 2017. (Near left:) Steve at the door. Notice the blue tarpaulin viewed past him. Photographer and support group Lucille Bubnis was informed that no pictures could be taken inside his studio.
A Life Lived On His Own Terms
41
Bernie Bubnis re-reading them and found countless reasons to delay my entry. Finally, it was now or never. I gulped and knocked on his door. He remained at his drawing board and I walked over and handed him a copy of my fanzine Comic Heroes Revisited. I had rehearsed in my mind that we would shake hands, but I nervously just shoved the book at him and tried to explain what it was. The small studio was alive with window light, which accented the flaws of my homemade effort. He flipped the pages. Why didn’t I just shake his hand and ask my yellow pad questions? I’m an idiot.
Bernie Burns Brightly In the 1960s (Left:) Circa 1964, a year or two after he first met Ditko. 1964 was the year Bernie was one of the major forces behind the first true comics convention ever. Thanks to BB for the pic. (Right:) One of the pages of the Dick Ayers-drawn story “A Spy There Was...” from The Human Torch #37 (June 1954)—scripter unknown—and Bubnis’ tracing of it for his 1962 fanzine Comic Heroes Revisited #1 (Spring 1962). Oddly, for some reason he doesn’t recall, Bernie re-paced the panels of the story as he traced it, combining parts of its p.5 & p. 6. The yarn’s Bubnis-traced splash panel was reprinted in A/E #153. [Page TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
The flipping stopped at one page. “Was this in a comicbook?” It was the first page of a Dick Ayers “Human Torch” story from the ’50s. I had traced and “redrawn” the pages onto master printing sheets that allowed me to “print” the images via my spiritduplicating machine. It took some doing, since you had to trace the pages through a light machine and ignore the images on the comic’s reverse pages. Then place this sheet onto the ink-bearing lower sheet. Next, go over the images again so the ink of the lower sheet would be transferred to this top white sheet for printing. Steve just looked at me after my explanation and said, “Did you do this for fun? “ Was that a trick question? I’d done it because I wanted to show my readers a story from an old comicbook. Not everyone could afford to buy old comics. “Then you did it because you wanted to. Then that makes sense.” As it turned out, Steve Ditko was interviewing me more than I was interviewing him. For a tough-grading teacher, he was pretty easy to talk with. I had a slight accent because as a child I grew up speaking Lithuanian as a second language, the only way I could talk with my immigrant grandparents. It still lingered in my speech. He noticed and asked me where I was from. Mohanoy City is a small mining town in Pennsylvania. Steve was also a Penn native, born in Johnstown. He was thirty-five in 1962. This first meeting was more about me than about the artist of “Spider-Man.” He asked me to bring photos next time of my home town if I could find any. “Bring”? Did that mean there would be another meeting? I floated
home two feet off the ground, not sure my feet touched Earth for another week. On my next visit I brought along photos of my father and grandfather. He then did something that surprised me. He started to sketch them and the buildings in the background. He kept all sorts of sketchbooks he later used for references. I’m not sure if my relatives ever became characters in one of his stories, but my father sure belonged in a horror comicbook. Steve talked of his dad, and I could feel that he admired him a lot. I said nothing about my father that day, but Steve would learn more about him... soon. On future visits I always brought along fanzines for him to read. He really seemed interested in the dedication of fans and their publications. I also got to meet Eric Stanton, an artist who shared the studio with Ditko. At first I did not realize the type of “comics” he was drawing, but it soon became clear that these bondage drawings were not being sent to the Comics Code people. Stanton was much more expressive than Steve. He would always have a wisecrack about something. When I mentioned to Ditko that I wanted to put together an article and would have to ask him some questions, he pointed at Eric and said, “Don’t mention him. “ They both laughed, but I knew he meant it, and I never did include him in the article. More than once I saw Ditko’s art pages sitting atop Stanton’s desk. I know he inked at least some “Spider-Man” backgrounds. I thought this because I could never imagine Ditko letting anyone else ink Spider-Man himself.
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Up Close & Personal With Steve Ditko!—Part 2
Ditko resumed his almost constant position at his drawing table. His smile slowly disappearing.
Eric Stanton Ditko’s longtime friend and studiomate (who passed away in 1999), in a photo taken in the late 1950s or early 1960s. Also seen is a page from his fetishistic comic Sweeter Gwen, to the inking of which Steve seems to have contributed. The photo is from Stanton’s Wikipedia entry. Thanks to Bernie B. for the Gwen art. [Page TM & © Estate of Eric Stanton.]
Stanton did not seem to have any secrets, except that he was Ditko’s secret. Eric never stopped working just because I entered. He would always talk, but made no attempt to cover up or move art, even if it was a “Spider-Man” page. Only once did I see a page on Ditko’s desk that surprised me. Years later I found out it was page 21 of Stanton’s “Sweeter Gwen” serial. Steve knew I could clearly see it, but without a word he flipped it over and never took his eyes from mine. I never said a word, but when I saw it again ten years later I then knew Ditko had helped with the inking. His style hits you like a sledgehammer. Later in their relationship, friction between the two drove them apart. When I knew them, they acted like two kids, with Steve playing the straight man to a Stanton joke. That was never more evident than the day I walked in on them and Steve was taking some heavy kidding from Eric, “Maybe she thinks you’re too handsome,” Stanton laughing, Ditko grinning with embarrassed red cheeks puffed up on his face. “Go back, this time wear a wig.” All I knew was that I had walked in on something to do with Steve’s love life, and the jabs continued for a few minutes. Until they weren’t funny any longer and Eric knew it. He tried to console Ditko now. “Hey, at least you tried. Don’t worry about it.”
By this time Stan Lee’s new secretary was Flo Steinberg. I learned later that Ditko asked her to lunch. She politely said no. I was only 14 at the time, but understood rejection. That day Steve Ditko had the look of a 14-year-old boy. One who just got turned down by the prettiest girl in art class. Years and years later, I asked Flo if Steve ever asked her out more than once. She said, “Probably, but times were different then. You didn’t date fellow employees.” I could not help but ask if she would have said “yes” if they did not work together. I never remember a discouraging word from Flo and this answer would be no different, “Bernie, sometimes the answer is just... no.” Sorry, Steve. I knew from my first visit, his studio was easy to find because it had his name on the door. This day I knocked a few times and got no answer. The knob turned, I slowly opened the door and entered. I saw that Steve was on the phone. He stared out the large windows by his desk and kept the phone pressed against his ear. Lots of dead silence, then a “Yes.” Another minute and then a loud “No.” He looked into the phone and yelled, “I can’t do that!” and slammed the receiver into its base. “They want everything yesterday.” He went back to drawing as if I wasn’t there. I had gotten accustomed to Steve Ditko’s wordless stares. I knew when they meant: “So...go ahead...” or “I’m busy right now.” Why waste words? He never did. That is why my article on him
Fabulous Flo Steinberg Marvel’s 1963-68 corresponding secretary poses with Bernie at the 2014 New York Comics Convention, which featured a 50th-anniversary panel tribute to the 1964 con. Photo by Lucille Bubnis; seen bigger in A/E #153. Also shown is Steve Ditko’s short letter to collector Bryan Stroud about Flo’s passing in July of 2017. In it he mentions being at the 1964 convention, sitting with Flo and listening to artist Tom Gill’s talk—a rare first-hand mention by Ditko of that groundbreaking event. Thanks to Bryan.
A Life Lived On His Own Terms
43
Interview With The Vampire-Drawer Bernie’s interview with Ditko as printed in RBCC [a.k.a. Rocket’s Blast Comicollector] #31 (get out your magnifying glass!). Of it, Bernie wrote Ye Ed separately: “[Editor/publisher] G.B. Love did not like my paragraph lampooning Steve’s matter-of-fact outburst after I told him Joe Kubert had given me a piece of original art: ‘I’m not giving you anything’ or something to that effect. At the time, his delivery was SOOO FINAL that I started laughing. I looked at him and made a face and said, ‘Hey, you’re sure now? You’re not going to change your mind?’ And another face, and I continued to laugh even more. I then said, ‘I didn’t ask for anything. I’m just telling you the story.’ I made another dopey John Belushi-type face and he started to smile, then actually laugh. In my article I retold this story, but my sophomoric sense of humor read more like an attack on Ditko than the goodnatured kidding around it actually was. “G.B. said he would pull those paragraphs before printing. I was a headstrong a**hole, so I told him to leave it in or don’t run the piece. I never gave in, so it took him almost 10 months to go ahead and pull the paragraph and run [the rest of the piece] without telling me. I always thought that it was the best of my series on the pros. I was just another frustrated writer being pummeled by my editor. I’m sure you’ve seen both sides.
that appeared in the Rocket’s Blast #31 was so hard to write. He made me work for every word. His one-word answers begged me to ask every question twice, sometimes three times. I started to believe he enjoyed this game. We determined that his first comicbook work was “Stretching Things” in Fantastic Fears #5. I did not know it at the time, but a copy of that comicbook sat on the shelves behind us. No effort was made to display it. He always seemed surprised that anyone would care about his career. The only thing important to him was on his drawing table... that day. He spoke more of people like Jack Kirby and Mort Meskin than he did of himself. Not every visit to Ditko’s studio was a pleasant experience. My dark-framed glasses did little to hide the enormous blackened skin that encircled my right eye. The moment Stanton saw me he howled, “What happened to you? “ Ditko stared back from his desk but said nothing. Perhaps a slight grin on his face. If I knew my next comment would ignite a firestorm... no way does it come out of my mouth. “My father...” My voice just trailed off as I fought to find a better way to finish my sentence. Before I could blink, Ditko bounced from his chair and stood before me. I don’t remember removing my glasses, I guess he did, it just happened. I was shocked to see him move so quickly. I just wanted to leave. My eyes filled with tears.
“When I re-read my own words [in this piece for Alter Ego], it is painfully evident that Steve started to build a lot of walls around himself post the Golden Age of comicbook fandom. Or just lost his sense of humor. [Back in the day] I had showed Steve the entire RBCC interview, complete with the offending G.B. censoring before I knew it would be removed—and we started laughing about it all over again! “I miss finding one of his letters in my mailbox. Glad I got to see him one last time. I’m not sure he ever knew how much he always meant to me. I was just a kid visiting my hero. One last time.” [Article © Bernie Bubnis; thanks to J. Ballmann for the scans.]
a Marvel comicbook. I tried to explain but no one listened. “How about your mother ? Does she know...?” I didn’t answer. I knew she knew. Ditko wanted my phone number. He wanted to know where my father worked. He was demanding answers, and there were none. None I wanted to give. Stanton calmed him down. His arms encircling Ditko’s shoulders, he whispered in his ear. I heard nothing. Nothing but the ringing in my head. Stanton’s whisper got louder and I heard, “No, no... you can’t do that.” I left without saying another word. This was not supposed to happen. I swore to myself that I would never see Ditko or that studio again.
My father chose crime first, then his family. After years of not understanding him, I started to know him too well. Age was stealing his bravado as an enforcer for a gang that terrorized the West Side of New York City. Alcohol became his confessor and his devil. Never answer him back. I learned that the hard way.
My father passed away a few months later, in May 1963. I knew I would feel uncomfortable at his funeral, so I avoided attending. New York City would be the perfect place to hide. Hide from his memory, from my family, and maybe from myself. I had to apologize to Steve for just walking out , or apologize for even showing up that day. A phone call would not work. I had to see him in person.
“Your father didn’t do this!” He examined my eye, then shook his head. “Why would he do this?” Mostly I was just some kid who stopped by his studio to say hello. Today I was forcing him to enter one of his own five-page horror stories that appeared in the back of
As if it was the first day I met Steve Ditko, I just stood outside his building, too frightened to enter. I didn’t know what I was going to say. I’m just going to say I’m sorry. Do it. Knock on the door. Do it. I entered, holding my breath. I just stood there; I still
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Up Close & Personal With Steve Ditko!—Part 2
didn’t know what to say. Like always, he was sitting at his drawing table. He saw me and said, “Did you bring any new fanzines?” He had never asked me that before. I would just put them on his desk, on top of whatever pile of paper was already there. I carried nothing. I started breathing again. At that very moment, I knew I was safe. I really believe that Steve Ditko always felt safe at his drawing board. He told me once, “I work until I’m finished.” It sure seemed that way. I know Stanton once asked him how late he worked the day before. Steve’s answer: “Way past your bedtime.” I’m glad he was there today. My planned speech was forgotten; I just told him my father died and announced that I was skipping the funeral. BANG! As easy as that... I thought. He dropped his pencil, our eyes locked, and I thought his stare would drill a hole right through my head. I backed up against the shelving on the wall and slid to the floor. He and I talked for over an hour... him telling me that I was doing the wrong thing. I should be with my family. Without family there is nothing. I told him some stories of my childhood and why I preferred to hide inside science-fiction novels and ten-cent comicbooks. He told me to be “stronger than the fears” around me, do not let the past control my future. At some point I stopped talking and just listened. He never raised his voice or picked up his drawing pencil. We just talked. It was a turning point for me, remembered moments that steered my life for years to come. I stood up, thanked him, and headed home to be with my mother. My regular visits to his studio would continue, and sometimes I would bring a guest. This day it was fellow fan Len Wein, long before he became a famous writer for comicbooks. This day he wanted Ditko’s autograph on a copy of Spider-Man. Oh my. Len buys a Spider-Man comic off the racks at Penn Station. I tell him that I don’t think Steve will sign a comicbook. Len opens the book to the first page and puts it on Ditko’s art board. Ditko does sign (in the lower border under the art), using his drawing pencil. Then... he erases it. He reminds both of us, “If you do it for one person, you have to do it for everyone. So I don’t sign for anyone.” Months later, he did reward Len with an original drawing
Along Came A Spider... The Spider-Man drawing Ditko did for an early Bubnis fanzine. We’ve printed it before, but what the hell. Thanks to Will Murray for sending this particular scan. [Spider-Man TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
of Dr. Strange, and it was signed. Len used it for the cover of his fanzine Aurora. If I had to guess, Ditko was tiring of fans visiting his studio.
“Survivors Of The First Comicon” Len Wein The late great comics writer and editor (seen at far right) and his onetime buddy Bernie Bubnis reunited for the panel to celebrate the 1964 con, on Oct. 12, 2014, at the NY Comic Con. Len’s next to early comics dealer Howard Rogofsky, while Bernie and Flo Steinberg talk near the podium. Thanks to Bernie B. for the photo.
We printed this pic from the 2014 reunion back in A/E #149, but the guys who joined forces to put on the first-ever comics convention deserve another bow. (Left to right, standing:) Rick Bierman, Bernie Bubnis, Ethan Roberts, Art Tripp, and non-attendee but major fanzine collector Aaron Caplan. Seated in the wheelchair because of an injury is Len Wein. Two of the guys are holding copies of Len’s vintage fanzine Aurora #2. Sadly, Len and Ethan have passed since this pic was taken. Photo courtesy of Bernie.
A Life Lived On His Own Terms
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From “A” To “E” (Above left:) The single page of Ditko’s “Mr. A” that appeared in witzend #7, at the end of an “Avenging World” installment. Thanks to Art Lortie for this and the following art spots. [TM & © Estate of Steve Ditko.] (Above right:) Page 1 (of 4) of editor/ publisher Bill Pearson’s parody of the strip done for witzend #7, titled “Mr. E.” Pearson later wrote, in a witzend collection, that he had “hated publishing that ‘Avenging World’ diatribe.... I really debated with myself about running ‘Mr. E,’ but just had to offset Ditko’s strong positions.” This is not, of course, the time or place to debate the decision of an editor to write and publish a parody of a contribution to a magazine originally devoted to allowing artists and writers to copyright, control, and showcase their own creations without the interference of the “big boy” editors and publishers. [TM & © Bill Pearson & Tim Brent; quote © Bill Pearson.] Of the “Mr. E” piece, Bernie writes: “It was a solid shot at Steve, and I wrote him about its appearance. I remember his reply to me being something like, ‘I have become a target.’ His words made me feel that ‘satire’ can feel like an ‘attack’ to the person being lampooned. I never forgot how sad he sounded in that letter, but we never discussed it again... until I reminded him of that issue of witzend in 2014. To my surprise, he needed little help in remembering it forty years later. I have attached his response. His ‘etc.’ (I think) refers to another person who helped with the [‘Mr. E’] strip. Either Steve threw nothing away, or his memory got better with age. He sure remembered that two people did the strip.... I always felt [the ‘Mr. E’ strip] was part of a turning point that pushed Steve further away from fandom. Not that he ever needed too much help.” Ditko’s 2014 letter, reprinted above (re-formatted into one paragraph), reads: “Bill Pearson’s editorial policy, competence wasn’t up to Woody’s. Pearson’s, etc. Mr. E was just publicly, humiliating confession that he couldn’t tolerate comic book fiction he did not like. He even violated Woody’s policy - Pearson asked me to contribute something, then rejected what I did: IN PRINCIPLE. —Steve”
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Up Close & Personal With Steve Ditko!—Part 2
Trudy, Madly, Deeply Trudy Ross was the secretary who, in the latter part of 1962, briefly preceded Flo Steinberg as Stan Lee’s secretary—and, incidentally, the person who had suggested to Bernie Bubnis that he might try looking up Steve Ditko’s phone number in the NYC directory (which he duly did). To try to help us out with regard to info about Ms. Ross for A/E #153, Bernie dropped Ditko a line: “I asked him if he could remember a Trudy Ross at Marvel. He answered [on 2-27-18, about four months before his death] and took a parting shot at his former employer. Mr. Ditko has left the building.”
Somehow, in early 1964, I trapped myself into a dangerous corner. Numerous attempts by my fandom friends to organize a “convention” devoted entirely to comicbooks would always hit a brick wall. Well, I decided to finally break that wall. Unfortunately, I decided to use my head instead of a hammer. Ouch. Fellow 1964 Comicon organizer Ron Fradkin told Steve our plans and he agreed to attend. His only request was that he did not want to give a speech or appear as a speaker of any kind. We just wanted him there. Period. Thank you, Mr. Ditko. Just show up... please. The original location for this event was to be a YMCA in Newark, New Jersey. Ethan Roberts knew that was a mistake and offered his father’s union hall in lower Manhattan as a substitution. This last-minute change confused a few people (no kidding), so I wanted to make sure Steve had the new address. I knew this Ditko stare. Holy crap. He told me he had a new deadline and would not be able to attend. Holy crap. We’re gonna hit that wall. You can’t say you’re coming and then change your mind. You can’t do this. Everyone we thought would attend has said no. Kirby, Schwartz, Gil Kane, you name ‘em. No one thinks this is real. You can’t do this. I never asked you for anything. Please, please, you’ve got to help us. He sat quiet at his desk and watched as I begged. I must have gone on for a solid ten minutes. He said nothing. It was over and I knew it. I opened the door to leave. As I closed it behind me I heard, “I’m sorry...” So was I. Our plans went ahead without him. Tom Gill, the Lone Ranger artist, had guaranteed us that he would attend. He really was the only professional who took us seriously. Stan Lee sent over a knowledgeable (sort of) intern editor named Dave Twedt. At least this thing wasn’t going to be in someone’s basement. We were at least driving around that brick wall. To this day I cannot forget the sight of fifty heads turning in unison as the hall’s closed doors opened loudly during Twedt’s speech. A guy in a white T-shirt entered and grabbed a seat in the last row. Twedt kept his poise and introduced Steve Ditko to the crowd.. No introduction was necessary for anyone in that room. Every mouth dropped open at the same time, and we all knew that brick wall was gone forever. Ditko had put that deadline on the back burner and decided to ensure that this would be the very first Comic Con. He was joined later by Flo Steinberg. I lost a summer job because I attended my own convention.
No days off, kid. I spent all my money on ads and postage for hundreds of handwritten letters begging people to attend. Instead of accepting a no from Julius Schwartz, I said something stupid and he physically threw me out of his office before refusing to attend. It gets worse. One of the attendees was writing an article listing all the mistakes we made at the con. Put them all together and I was wearing my depression like a prison jumpsuit. A week after the comicon, I knew I had to thank Ditko for attending. He hated the spotlight, but remained for the entire day. I also wanted him to see some of the artwork that fans like Buddy Saunders, Alan Weiss, and Ronn Foss had contributed for the planned “after-con” convention fanzine. Trouble was that by this time I did not have any interest in printing this zine. All I wanted to do was feel sorry for myself. I told him how I felt. Steve Ditko’s studio was the wrong place to feel sorry for yourself. Here it comes: Originally, Ditko provided me with two pencil sketches for a once-proposed photo-offset progress report for the 1964 convention. At this point, the only comicon fanzine would be a much less expensive spirit-duplicator version. I told him I could not use them and perhaps I would just forget about a con zine of any kind. Wrong answer, and this was the only time I heard him raise his voice: “DO NOT GIVE UP. YOU TELL PEOPLE YOU ARE GOING TO DO SOMETHING—THEN DO IT. DON’T MAKE EXCUSES. WHATEVER YOU DID—YOU DID. GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE. “ He asked me what process I was going to use to print this zine. When I told him ditto, he said to get him two masters and he would draw directly onto them. It was a lesson I never forgot, and I replayed his words in my mind whenever I felt burdened by a task in the future. Fifty years later, I reminded him in a letter just how important his advice had been to me. Soon after, Robin Snyder told me that Steve wanted him to print that letter in their fanzine The Comics! I thought it was too personal and offered to rewrite it for use in a later issue. In October 2017 it was one of the first things we talked about. He told me that most people do not take advice. We laughed when I told him that he screamed the advice at me, I was afraid not to listen. He did add, “No one is going to change another and no one is really responsible for another individual’s behavior.” Steve lived his life on his own terms. I’m sure I am not the only person who is stronger for having known him. I will miss him. I will always hear his voice, “Get on with your life.” I did... thanks to advice from my pal Steve Ditko.
Up Close & Personal With Steve Ditko!—Part 3
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Two Visits To STEVE DITKO’s Studio/Sanctum Sanctorum by Russ Maheras
I
wrote my first letter to Steve Ditko in early 1973, while I was still in high school. It was the typical letter a budding fan-artist might send a seasoned professional comics artist back then— full of effusive praise, capped with a request for some secret kernel of artistic knowledge that would magically transform overnight a fan’s crude artistic efforts into professional-level artwork. Ditko did his best to answer, giving what was, in retrospect, a solid list of advice.
Russ Maheras circa 1973, around the time he first met Steve Ditko— juxtaposed with an anonymous but skillfully done homage composed of samples of Ditko’s 1960s super-hero work, which appeared online shortly after the artist’s passing: Charlton’s Captain Atom and Blue Beetle—Marvel’s Spider-Man, Dr. Strange, and Nightmare—and DC’s Creeper. Thanks to Russ for the photo, and to Michael T. Gilbert for sending the homage. [Captain Atom, Blue Beetle, & The Creeper TM & © DC Comics; Spider-Man, Dr. Strange, and Nightmare TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Two years later, I wrote him again, and this time I asked if I could stop by his studio for a visit when I was in New York City later that year. He politely declined, and I pushed that idea into the dustbin of history—not realizing that 28 years later my request would become a reality. More than two decades passed before I wrote Ditko again, in 1997. In the interim, I joined the Air Force, learned to be an aircraft avionics technician, got married, had kids, opted to be a career Airman, traveled and lived abroad for nearly a decade, earned a bachelor’s degree, retrained into public affairs during the early 1990s military drawdown, kept drawing, and kept publishing my fanzine, Maelstrom. In fact, my third letter to Ditko was a request for what I knew was an extreme longshot: an interview for an upcoming issue of my zine. Again, he politely declined. I wrote a few more letters during the next two years about nothing in particular—including a couple while I was stationed in the Republic of Korea in 1998. In one of them, I included some terrifically supple Korean-made brushes that were ridiculously cheap, but feathered ink like a Winsor & Newton brush costing 30 times as much.
In 1999, I retired from the Air Force, published Maelstrom #7, and dutifully sent Ditko a copy. Our correspondence continued off and on until 2002, when I started preparing a Steve Ditko article for Maelstrom #8—along with a cover I drew that featured many of his more notable characters. When the issue was published, I sent him
a copy, and something about it must have struck a chord, as he sent me several letters of comment. Suddenly, our correspondence was a regular back-and-forth, and as my letters got longer, so did his. Some of his letters were 10, 12, or even 16 pages long. So when I found out I had a business trip to New York City in mid-August 2003, I figured it couldn’t hurt to call ahead of time and ask if it I could stop by his studio on the 11th. To my surprise, he said yes. What follows are the notes I made in my hotel room immediately following visit #1, followed by notes I made after my second studio visit on Feb. 11, 2005.
Visit #1 At about 2:50 p.m., Aug. 11, I knocked on Steve Ditko’s studio door. He opened it and said without introduction, “Hello, Russ,” and reached out and shook my hand. I went inside and gratefully thanked him for seeing me. I asked him where I could set down my laptop carry case and he pointed to a spot; then I asked him if he minded if I took off my suit coat, and he said, “Here, let me take that from you,” and he took my coat and hung it up on his coat rack.
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Up Close & Personal With Steve Ditko!—Part 3
Letter Rip The envelope (with the “S. Ditko” return address) and letter that Russ M. received from the artist dated March 11, 1973. The missive reads in full: Dear Russ, All the work I did in the 50’s, 60 etc are filed away – too much trouble to check. No, I’m not interested in autographing old or new issues. You don’t have to use any pen – used what you believe does the job you want – that produces the effect you want. There are art books on pen & ink techniques. You can experiment with them and the various penpoints or stay with the brush. You’ll have to decide what works best for you. “ADVISE”!? Okay, Drawiang, inking begins with the mind. You have to think about what you are doing – How “ “
“ it
Why “ “
“ it
What is the best way of doing it “ are your weak points “ “
“ strong “
How to correct the weak points What this line is for “ that black is meant to convey etc, etc, etc. If you do something that looks good, right – know why. “ “ “ “ “ “ wrong, work on it till you understand what is wrong & what is the right way. You can’t just start with the “best” – you start with the one that will hire you. Regards, Steve
He works out of a small office on the seventh floor of an old 12-story office building, and has been there about six years. The long, narrow office consists of two rooms. The one closest to the single door leading to the office is like a small hallway, and contains a wardrobe and coat rack. This short hallway leads to the rest of the office, which measures about eight feet wide by 20 feet long. At the end of the room is a large window overlooking 51st Street. On both sides of the main room are low bookshelves neatly filled with books, magazines, and boxes filled with paper and other items. There are many books about philosophy of all kinds. Above the shelves, neatly taped on the walls, are various art proofs, philosophical charts, magazine excerpts and other material. Proofs include the covers for Avenging World, The Mocker, Static, and various Ditko Packages. No original art is evident. Also taped on the wall are the addresses for people he regularly corresponds with, such as Robin Snyder. He apparently is a regular reader of The New York Post, as there is a small stack of them piled on a bookshelf. He has two drawing/work areas in a squared off work space next to the window. One, which, because of the way the light enters through the window, looks like his main workspace, is along the
east wall. The shelves above this workspace are filled with many small boxes and containers full of his art supplies. There are a wide variety of multi-color markers, pens, and other supplies. The second flanks him to the right, and extends from the west wall to the east, leaving a three-foot space with which to enter the workspace from the main part of the room. He also has a wheeled office chair with several layers of home-made padding material on it. The office door is just across the hall from the elevators, and looks like the rest of the doors in the hall, except that his studio door has “S. Ditko” painted on it. Steve is a fairly thin, gray-haired older man. His thinning hair is combed back, and he wears narrow-frame glasses. That day, he was wearing a short-sleeved soft-plaid shirt (with pocket) that buttoned up in front, a white T-shirt, and slacks. He stands nearly erect, and appears in excellent health. He’s alert, moves deliberately, and has no signs of any age-related issues. His hearing is fine, and his mind seems very quick and very sharp. He is a friendly, articulate and affable man, who, while he may have strong opinions (as do I), is still easy to talk to. He listened carefully to what I said, and if he agreed, nodded or affirmed his agreement. If he disagreed, he would say so and explain why. We stood and talked until 5 p.m. At one point, about a half hour into our talk, I asked if he would like to sit down. He quickly said, “No, I sit too much.”
A Package Deal By the time Russ Maheras finally met Ditko in 2003, the fabled artist’s major output was the “Package” publications he produced in conjunction with his friend and publishing partner Robin Snyder, such as 2000’s Steve Ditko’s 176 Page Package, which featured “Mr. A” and “Kill-Joy.” [TM & © Estate of Steve Ditko.]
Two Visits To Steve Ditko’s Studio/Sanctum Sanctorum
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A Trio Of Immortals Three comic-art favorites of Ditko—and of his contemporaries and predecessors—were: Harold R. Foster, writer/artist of King Features’ Prince Valiant (as evidenced by this panel from the 3-28-43 strip)… Burne Hogarth, whose reprinted Tarzan comic strip art graced the cover of United Features Syndicate’s Sparkler Comics #31 (March 1944)… …and Alex Raymond, whose Sunday-resplendent Flash Gordon is seen fencing with Ming the Merciless in a classic scene from the 1930s. [Prince Valiant & Flash Gordon TM & © King Features Syndicate, Inc.; Tarzan TM & © Edgar Rice Burroughs, Inc.]
He reads voraciously and said he goes to the library regularly. He gave me a book by Ben Stein called The View from Sunset Boulevard (Basic Books, New York, 1979), which analyzes how a relatively small group of Hollywood creators view the world of business, and how their well-meaning but seriously distorted view is regularly foisted upon tens of millions of American television viewers each night in the form of prime-time sitcom and adventure shows. This is the same Yale-educated Ben Stein who is a successful columnist, and also creator of the offbeat game show Win Ben Stein’s Money, which has won seven Emmys. Ditko said he still draws. He also said he has lots of ideas, but no real outlet to sell them to. He said editors regard his work and the work of other older artists as old-fashioned. “They think we’re dinosaurs,” he said. When he was going through art school, he said he had to work very hard to improve his artwork. He said there were people all around him who could draw better, but they didn’t make it in the business because they didn’t keep at it—didn’t persist. At first, he said he was rejected by all the comicbook publishers—there were about 13 or so in the early 1950s—but he kept at it. Regarding the aborted book about Ditko that was to be published by Eclipse in the 1980s, Ditko said the company had the entire book already written before they came to him for possible participation. After he agreed to assist, they went back and started unilaterally writing more—interviewing his brother and other people. Ditko said, “It was at that point I said, ‘Forget it!’” He said he uses a Winsor & Newton #3 and a Hunt 102 crowquill for drawing. I asked if he modifies the crowquill tip by sanding it with emery cloth, etc., and he said he does not. Ditko said he thinks Gary Groth might be a Fabian Socialist, and appears to be an adherent of George Bernard Shaw and others—except that he seems to like some aspects of capitalism when it suits him, such as his Comics Journal and Fantagraphics enterprises.
A while back, Ditko said an editor contacted him to draw a “Batman” story for DC. He got the script and the writing was such that he said you could have cut Batman out of the story and inserted someone with a business suit or any other character, and it wouldn’t have made any difference. There was nothing in the story that was uniquely Batman. He told this to the editor, and the editor said he’d get a different writer to do the story. The second story arrived and it was even worse than the first. Ditko said he liked illustrators such as Hal Foster, Burne Hogarth, and Alex Raymond, and added that he liked the old, large-sized Sunday comics pages. He said he does not like the small strips of today. Someone phoned while I was there, and whoever it was, they apparently check up on Ditko every day. Ditko said Wallace Wood (Woody) seemed to have been his own worst enemy at times. Said he loved the way Woody inked his stuff. Said emphatically that Woody could ink his work any day. Said Frank Giacoia was a great inker. Said people have trouble inking his work because his penciling is so loose. He said Joe Kubert and Woody were the same way. He said he read a copy of the book The Intellectuals: A Controversial Portrait (The Free Press, Glencoe, Ill., 1960), until it fell apart. Found another used copy recently and is starting to break that copy in. Spider-Man was an angst-ridden anti-hero with problems, and Ditko saw that, as the character progressed, Spider-Man was being saddled with more and more flaws and problems. He said he knew that, as more time passed, Spider-Man would eventually become unrecognizable as a hero. He said this in response to my comments about some of the strange incarnations Spider-Man has undergone over the years, such as Venom. He saw the (first) Spider-Man film. He has mixed feelings about it and said it was too dark a film. Also did not like its portrayal of the military and businessmen. He talked about the Buster Crabbe Flash Gordon serials and other serials such as The Shadow with Victor Jory, and noted how the actors said that, despite the young audience for such fare, they always played their roles straight. This is not what happened with the 1960s Batman TV show or The Shadow movie. They did not respect the material and played it for laughs. I said that kids can see right through material that is not taken seriously by its creators, and Ditko emphatically agreed.
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Up Close & Personal With Steve Ditko!—Part 3
The Lay Of The (Ditko) Land A photo taken by Russ Maheras in February 2005 of the building on West 51st Street in Manhattan in which Steve Ditko kept his studio—and Russ’ drawing of the layout of that studio. [Drawing © Russ Maheras.]
did.
I asked if he read the pulp Doc Savage and he said he probably
He had not seen the film Daredevil, but someone had written him and said it was a very dark film. He said comics today don’t have heroic characters anymore. They are too dark. He said that many of those who criticize the philosophical aspects of his work know almost nothing about philosophy in the first place. He loves to work with wash. Regarding the shading, he said he would visualize the image he was planning to draw and then do it. The story “K,” which he drew with Duotone shading for the magazine Mad Monsters #1, was supposed to be shot by Charlton as line art, but they goofed and screened it like a photo instead. The results, he said, were terrible. The story had Frank Sinatra at the end of it. At just after 5 p.m., while in the middle of a sentence, he suddenly paused as if some mental alarm clock had just triggered. His head turned toward a small clock on top of a bookshelf as if to confirm the time, and he politely ended our meeting. I asked him if he would like to go somewhere to eat dinner, and he said no thanks, “There are too many distractions—people with cell phones and things like that.” He got my suit coat from the coat rack, handed it to me, and escorted me to the door. As I waited for the elevator, he stood at the door and we talked until it arrived. We shook hands and I departed.
Visit #2 On Friday, Feb. 11, 2005, from 2:40 p.m. until 5 p.m., I made my second visit to Steve Ditko’s studio on 51st and Broadway in Manhattan. For this visit, after much thought, I decided to bring a stack of dozens of publications, from all genres, spanning Ditko’s
career—many with Post-It note tabs to flag a story or piece of art I was hoping to discuss. I also brought along a personal collection of Ditko-drawn fantasy stories that, as a young fan, I had torn from various reprint comics and then stapled together into thick “annualsized” volume. I had no way of knowing how Ditko would react to my request to go through the stack, but to my delight his interest was piqued, and he graciously agreed. He spent more than an hour flipping through the material, re-analyzing it, making comments, and reflecting. I believe he really enjoyed the entire exercise, which jogged his memory about a wide variety of topics. And, as an added bonus, once the visit concluded and I was back in my hotel room furiously scribbling out page after page of notes about my visit while everything was still fresh in my mind, the stack of material helped me remember many more comments and anecdotes than I probably would not have remembered otherwise. Initial impressions: Ditko was wearing a short-sleeved white shirt with blue pin stripes. He still seems in great health. His eyesight seemed excellent, and he moved spryly. He seems very alert, has a great memory, and is very aware of current events. When I arrived, he was listening to a lite rock station on the radio. He said he liked doing the five-page fantasy stories for Marvel. Stan Lee didn’t want fancy science-fiction costumes, because he wanted the focus to be on the people, rather than the hardware, so Ditko put his astronauts in T-shirts. Lee would never describe a monster for a story he wrote. He’d leave the look totally up to the artist. This is why the monsters drawn by Jacky Kirby, Ditko, and Don Heck are all distinctively different. While looking at the story “I Wore… the Mask of Drothor!,” he chuckled approvingly at the sight of the splash page, after which I mentioned it was one of my all-time favorite Marvel Monster splash pages. When he saw the story “The Creature from the Black Bog!” he said, “I think Larry Lieber scripted that one.” He said Joe Gill took the screenplay of Gorgo and adapted it.
Two Visits To Steve Ditko’s Studio/Sanctum Sanctorum
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was setting up Osborn, which is why his son Harry Osborn was introduced as Peter’s classmate in college. The Green Goblin face was based on a medieval goblin/ gargoyle one might see on an old building. Norman Osborn’s first appearance was at a club with J. Jonah Jameson, and he was unnamed. I asked Ditko about Osborn’s unique hairstyle, and he said he wanted a look that was distinctive and different to set Osborn apart from other characters. He added that such clarity was an important part of the story communication process. The three-part story arc in Amazing Spider-Man #31-33, where Aunt May is dying, was intentionally designed to occur just as Peter Parker started college—for maximum dramatic effect. The robots in Amazing Spider-Man #37 were designed to be a step ahead of robot designs from that period. The name “Stephen Strange” was Lee’s idea. “It was Stan’s little joke,” Ditko said, adding that he never would have used his own first name for Dr. Strange. Ditko said he did, however, occasionally work the names of people he knew into stories.
“Astronauts In T-Shirts” Steve was quite literally correct in using the above phrase, because, in the Lee-Ditko story “The Secret of the Universe!” in Amazing Adult Fantasy #11 (April 1962), the “pilot” of an interstellar trip did indeed wear a T-shirt!
His adaptation impressed Ditko. “The Question” lettering was done at Charlton on a giant typewriter. The artwork was actually rolled in like an oversized piece of typing paper. The “Spider-Man” story development in the early stages of his collaboration with Lee went as follows: Ditko and Lee would have a story discussion. Ditko would leave, pencil out the story, and then, inside the panels, he’d write in the “panel script” (suggested dialogue and narration). He’d then bring it back in to Lee. They’d discuss the story from start to finish, Ditko would annotate changes outside the panels, and then Ditko would leave. Lee would then write in the final dialogue and the book would be lettered. Ditko would come in, take the pages back, and then make any changes during the inking process. Ditko said Lee wanted a Spider-Girl after just a few issues. He had no long-term vision for Spider-Man. He never thought about what he would do with the characters from one issue to the next. He’d just say, “Let’s make Attuma the villain,” and Ditko said he would have to talk him out of it. Ditko said he started doing the plots all by himself “around issue 18 or so.” At around that same point, he said Lee stopped talking to him, so he plotted the remaining issues in his Amazing Spider-Man run with no input from Lee. Ditko said the credits should not have read “Written by Stan Lee.” They should have read: “Dialogue by Stan Lee.” Ditko said he was absolutely going to make Norman Osborn The Green Goblin. He
Gorgo Go-Go!
Joe Gill
Ditko’s splash page for the Charlton-published Gorgo #1 (officially dated “1960”), re-telling the story of the film that came out in 1961! Steve was quite admiring of the script/adaptation by Charlton writer Joe Gill (seen at left in his later years). The artwork is repro’d from the Yoe Books/IDW hardcover Ditko Monsters: Gorgo!, which reprints the entire comics series. [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
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What A Revoltin’ Development The Molten Man Was! Steve Ditko related to Russ Maheras how he would have to talk editor/scripter Stan Lee out of using far-out super-opponents like Sub-Mariner’s sub-sea foe Attuma. Perhaps the most outré they got—though this was after Ditko was being credited for all the plotting— was The Molten Man, in Amazing Spider-Man #28 (Sept. 1965)—well, unless you count Dr. Strange in Strange Tales Annual #2! Thanks to the Grand Comics Database. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Up Close & Personal With Steve Ditko!—Part 3
Ditko said he used to have a whole collection of National Geographic magazines on hand for reference. He also had a file containing reference material for every part of the world. For example, he said he used a photo reference for a Tibetan monastery window he drew in a “Dr. Strange” story. However, he did not always use the reference material he gathered. One time, he said he assembled some material for a story and then started drawing. The next thing he knew, the story was done, yet he hadn’t even glanced at any of reference material. “I’d let the story flow and it would sometimes draw itself.”
He said he used to commute to the city on a train with Charles Nicholas, who created the original “Blue Beetle.” Ditko said when he was drawing the new “Blue Beetle,” he tried to work Nicholas’ name into a story, but it never happened.
because the deadline was so tight, there was no way he could draw the story in pencil, and then ink it. While flipping through the Eerie story titled “Collector’s Edition,” he said the engraving-style artwork in the story was an experiment in black-&-white rendering. The technique on the “eyes” was done with white Zip-a-tone. While looking at the “Isle of the Beast” story in Eerie #9, Ditko said, “That was a weird one.” As he looked at various Creepy and Eerie pages, I asked him how he came up with some of the amazing panels he drew, and he said he let the drawings guide themselves. While looking through one of the Amazing Spider-Man books, he said the same thing regarding a long fight scene that was infused with very skillful choreography. He paused, looked at the scene, and gave it a satisfactory nod. While he was looking at Beware The Creeper #1, I asked him about the origin of the character, and Ditko said The Creeper was his idea. He said the same when we got to the “Hawk and Dove” books. The characters were his idea. The judge was supposed to be the central character, but because writer Steve Skeates was a “young radical” at the time, he was not a good fit for the book. On the book 3-D Substance, he tried to give Jack C. Harris some input about the reproduction and layout development of the book, and Harris said, “I don’t need your input.”
When asked about the wordless “Mr. A” story in Martin Greim’s fanzine Comic Crusader Storybook, Ditko said that the reason there was no dialogue or narration is because he thought enough fans were familiar with Mr. A by that time that they’d be able to follow such an experimental story. Regarding the first “Mr. A” story that appeared in witzend, Ditko said that Bill Pearson didn’t want to use it, possibly because he didn’t like the philosophy of the strip. Ditko added that’s probably why Pearson did the “Mr. E” take-off of Ditko’s character. witzend creator Wallace Wood, who was a great friend and collaborator of Ditko’s, apparently intervened, and the “Mr. A” was published. Ditko said that the “Who dares…” pulled quote on page 1 of the comicbook Mr. A #1 was not written by him and was added without his knowledge. He added that the typeset text was originally hand-lettered, and also used without his knowledge. Ditko added that he had lettered the first story. I asked about the perceived similarity between Mr. A and The Question. Ditko said that, in his mind, the two were unrelated. Mr. A first appeared in witzend, and The Question was just a super-hero in regular clothes. While Ditko was looking at his wash story in Tomb of Dracula (magazine) #2, he mentioned that the wash reproduction was terrible. Pointing to a few panels, he said, “There’s nothing there!” He went on to say that the only reason he did the story in wash was
The “Norman” Conquests Although Norman Osborn wasn’t introduced by name until the panels seen below from Amazing Spider-Man #37 (June 1966), Ditko always maintained that Osborn had actually been introduced, though unnamed (and clearly without speaking any dialogue, even anonymously), in the above panels way back in ASM #23 (April 1965). Stan said on several occasions that Steve had wanted The Green Goblin to turn out to be someone the reader had never seen before, but it’s quite possible that he was there confusing the Goblin with Crime-Master. Thanks to Barry Pearl for the scans. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Two Visits To Steve Ditko’s Studio/Sanctum Sanctorum
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books for DC or Marvel sold as well. He said he had too many “silent fans”—people who said they were fans, but did not buy his books. He added, if his books don’t sell, why should a company hire him to draw for them? After all, a business is a business. Although he did qualify that with the statement, “They are expensive, though.” At one point during the conversation, I said, “I’m going to ask you something, and you can tell me to shut up if you want to, but is the reason you don’t attend conventions like the one at San Diego due to money concerns? I mean, I’ll fly you there so you could attend.” He replied emphatically, “No, no. That’s not it at all!” At one point he said, “I don’t get out much.” He also said that he’s one of the few creators from his generation who is still around. While going through the stack of publications, I mentioned that I had missed a lot of 1980s comics because I had spent most of the decade stationed overseas. Without missing a beat he quipped, “You didn’t miss much!”
Don’t Say “A” Word! The second page of the mostly-wordless “Mr. A” story from Martin Greim’s celebrated Comic Crusader Storybook, which featured contributions from pros and fans alike. Thanks to Bill Schelly. [TM & © Estate of Steve Ditko.]
I asked who influenced his art, and he said there was no single major influence. He said there were so many great illustrators back then, such as Alex Raymond, and he took in all of their work. I asked him if he ever had a mentor, and he answered, “No. I always worked alone.”
I found it curious when, during the course of one of our side conversations, Ditko said he believed he didn’t have a set style, and that it changed with the type of story he was working on. He said he believed this differentiated him from someone like John Severin, whose style he believed to be more distinctive. I replied that I can always recognize the Ditko style. He mulled what I said, but did not respond, and the conversation moved elsewhere. In retrospect, Ditko is not the first professional artist I’ve run across who does not appear to realize just how strong his/her artistic style is, and that there are those of us who can spot such individual styles almost immediately. Several people regularly write to him. A friend sent him a tape of the 60 Minutes television episode about Stan Lee. Someone he knows well called him while I was there. They had a brief, friendly conversation. He received a second such call later on.
I asked about what I perceived as a similarity between his early 1950s work and Joe Kubert’s. I mentioned that when I was a very young fan, I sometimes got their earliest works confused. Ditko said there was no link, but he was aware of Kubert’s work at DC on “Hawkman” and “Vigilante.” At one point, Ditko related an anecdote about himself, Wallace Wood, Paul Levitz, and the comicbook series Stalker. Ditko penciled the series and Wood inked it. After the first issue was put to bed, it was time for Levitz to divvy out the original artwork between the two veteran artists. Ditko said that, because of Levitz’s experiences and/or observations involving original art among other artist team-ups, Levitz seemed to expect an argument. Ditko said he and Wood just looked at each other and said, “How about you take the pages for the first issue, and I’ll take the pages for the next one?” And just like that, it was settled. Ditko said he always enjoyed working with Wood. Ditko lamented that none of his post-Spider-Man
Wallace (Wally) Wood was a superb comics illustrator who inked Ditko’s work on the four-issue DC swordand-sorcery series Stalker, co-created by writer Paul Levitz. Seen here is the Ditko/ Wood cover of Stalker #1 (JuneJuly 1975). [TM & © DC Comics.] The self-portrait/selfcaricature of Wally Wood is TM & © Estate of Wallace Wood.
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Up Close & Personal With Steve Ditko!—Part 3
Anecdote postscript: After I returned to Illinois from New York, I contacted Levitz, who was then the president and publisher of DC Comics, and asked him about the DC comp policy, and asked whether or not Ditko should be receiving comp copies. Levitz said that Ditko should have been on the comp list, and he would ensure Ditko received the hardcover reprints of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents and Captain Atom. In a Feb. 20, 2005, letter to me, Ditko said that he had already received the former from DC, and the latter was forthcoming.
Too Many “Silent Fans”? That was the curse, Steve Ditko felt, that befell his later work, with many people claiming to admire his work and yet not buying Beware The Creeper or The Hawk and The Dove or his Charlton Blue Beetle—or, later, his “Starman” and Speedball the Masked Marvel—in the same quantities they’d purchased the mid-1960s Amazing Spider-Man or even Strange Tales featuring “Doctor Strange.” He never seems to have considered that Stan Lee’s scripts might have had anything at all to do with the popularity of his two Marvel successes. On the other hand, howcum DC and Marvel stuck different inkers on one of the most successful pen-and-ink artists of only a few years before, as per his “Starman” half of the cover of Adventure Comics #472 (June 1980), inked by Dick Giordano—or Speedball the Masked Marvel #2 (Oct. 1988), inked by Romeo Tanghal? [Adventure cover TM & © DC Comics; Speedball cover TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
He has a cassette tape recorder and a large variety of tapes. Many were objectivistic in nature. There was a VCR box stacked in a corner, so he may have access to a VCR as well. We did not discuss any objectivist topics while I was there—just comics, world events, and a little general philosophy. He told me that a “Mr. A” project was on hold right now, and that Robin Snyder was unable to publish it for some reason. That’s been the case for about a year. I gave him the book News and the Culture of Lying: How Journalism Really Works, and a near-mint copy of the Wood/Ditko comic Heroes, Inc. He was appreciative of the comic, and a few weeks after my visit he wrote and thanked me again for the journalism book, which he had already read and enjoyed. He said that DC and Marvel send him “legally required payment” for work of his that they reprint. Ditko said that Marvel sent comp copies, such as the Essentials reprints, but DC did not, with one exception: In 2000, they sent him a copy of the Millennium Edition reprint of Mysterious Suspense #1. It was a first, and he said he was surprised to receive it. But he said they did not send him the reprint hardcover books “like the recent Captain Atom book.”
Russ Maheras and the cover he drew for his fanzine Maelstrom #8 (July 2002), a tribute to Steve Ditko. [Characters TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
Up Close & Personal With Steve Ditko!—Part 4
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STEVE DITKO by Craig Yoe
(Originally posted on Facebook July 7, 2018)
W
ho had as much effect on my young life as Steve Ditko?
Actually, there were a number of people— my father, the Beatles, my Boy Scout leader, my best friends David and Linus, musician Carlos Suris who sang and talked to me about Christ, and the late-night TV horror host, Ghoulardi. But Steve was the visual artist of the bunch, and being an artist or trying to be one (or at least associating with artists) has defined my career. So, I owe Steve Ditko tremendously much. I grew up as a young kid loving comics. I assumed they weren’t created by mere mortals but by Gods like Walt Disney. In my adolescence, though, I discovered the early issues of Spider-Man and understood, because of Stan Lee’s revealing and entertaining ballyhooing of his and Ditko’s comics, that they were drawn by a flesh-and-blood person. This was at the period of time when my peers and I were supposed to start seriously thinking about what we wanted to be when we grew up. I didn’t want to be a what but a who—Steve Ditko. I wanted to draw with unabashed style, with a relatable humanity and at the same time create amazing fantasies. So I dove into comics fandom and the world of fanzines. I even created a super-hero for a zine called Wonderment where every pose and panel was swiped from my hero. I never became Steve Ditko or even made a living as a comicbook artist. I tragically failed and became instead a Creative Director for Disney, Nickelodeon, and for Jim Henson and his Muppets. But I had a Hoary Host of Hoggoth moment and realized that the latter position gave me the opportunity to just maybe meet my idol. I somewhat nervously phoned Ditko and invited him over for lunch and a tour of the Muppet Creature Shop. He nicely agreed! Our receptionist in the lobby of the grand old four-story uptown Victorian that housed Muppet headquarters buzzed me that a Mr. Steve Ditko was there to see me. I walked down the grand spiral staircase to find Ditko sitting in the theatre chairs positioned to make the waiting person look like they were sitting in the front row of a Muppet Theatre. Muralized Kermie, Piggy, Animal, and the whole crew
Jim Henson and a whole mess of Muppets. Craig Yoe worked for Henson’s company until after the Muppet creator passed away in 1990. [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
Craig Yoe and A/E editor Roy Thomas admiring one of Craig’s numerous fabulous hardcover reprintings of classic comicbook material, in this case a volume of his offbeat Haunted Love series. The photo was taken by Craig’s wife and partner, Clizia Gussoni, at the 2016 Heroes Convention in Charlotte, North Carolina. Since both were Marvel-boosters from the outset in the early ’60s, the guys might just as easily have been poring over the likes of Amazing Spider-Man #1 (March 1963), whose Steve Ditko-drawn splash page is pictured above right. Script & editing by Stan Lee. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
were peering over Steve Ditko’s shoulder. The fantastic denizens assembled, including the artist, were all looking at me. I ignored the others and excitedly greeted Spider-Man’s artist creator.... STEVE DITKO! We walked around the corner for lunch. Conversation was difficult. Ditko was not unfriendly but offered terse answers to any questions I brought forth about how he liked the weather or the food or about his philosophy about creativity. After a few tries I began to see that any inquiry or opinion I myself made was met with quiet, some rigid, some disagreeable responses, no matter what the topic. I wanted to be respectful, of course, but I was increasingly uncomfortable and found myself glad when Ditko passed on dessert! Instead of pie, we soon made our way to a third location, the nearby Muppet Creature Shop. There Steve seemed relaxed and relatable as he opened up with soft-spoken but eager questions about how the Muppet puppets were made. His enthusiastic curiosity about the Muppets creativity was sincere and refreshing. Steve was enjoying himself and I was relieved. In my mind, the environment at the disheveled Creature Shop with all of the creature parts, exotic feathers, gizmos, large eyeballs, fantastic sculptures, and more was like some scene Steve might have drawn for the pre-super-hero Strange Tales comicbook, so maybe Ditko, himself a creature creator, felt more at home. Time flew and it was now quickly time to go back to the Victorian mansion/offices in order to have Steve Ditko and Jim
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Up Close & Personal With Steve Ditko!—Part 4
would love his close involvement in selecting the stories.
Henson meet each other. I honestly don’t think the two were all that aware of each other’s contributions to art and culture. I was, however, never more thrilled than when I introduced the creative titans and witnessed the magical hand that brought Kermit the Frog to life and the wizardly hand that created the art of Dr. Strange clasp! Just last week I ran across a thoughtful thank-you letter Steve sent me after his visit to Muppet headquarters. This kind gesture felt natural and not a big deal. I even had casually written a daily to-do list on the small blank space at the bottom of Steve’s note. (Yes, dumb!) I sensed we were somehow sort of becoming friends. Steve, in fact, invited me to visit his studio, which I did go to a few days later.
Steve with no hesitation begged off on all aspects, gently but firmly insisting that he didn’t own the comics from Charlton Publishing that I was reprinting and wouldn’t accept any payment whatsoever. He humorously yet quite forthrightly told me if I wanted advice I should see a priest. He did wish me the best.
Steve Ditko Was A Big Boy!
We had a pleasant visit but I wondered about what looked like many bundles of original art wrapped in brown paper on the dusty shelves. I didn’t inquire, though, as Ditko gave off the vibe that asking about such things might be considered an invasion of privacy. After the mutual visits we kept in touch. When Jim suddenly passed and I decided to move on from the Muppets and start my own operation, I asked Steve to pencil an issue of the Big Boy Comics. Yoe Studio produced this promotional comic that Stan Lee had started in the 1950s for the hamburger restaurant chain. Steve happily accepted the assignment.
About six years ago I was asked by Greg Goldstein to start an imprint, Yoe Books, for IDW. I knew my first book had to be a tribute to the guy that inspired me to become a designer and artist in the first place. I called Steve to see if he would help me select stories for such a book. I told him I wanted to pay him for the use of the material I was reprinting and
Steve and I did still kept in touch, mostly through letters. I remember one he sent in a mid-December that shocked me a bit, it seemed so uncharacteristic. He warmly wrote to me about how he very much loved the snow, the sights, and the sounds of Christmas. Steve opined that it was his favorite time of year. The “Miracle of the Holidays,” I guess.
The first page of the 4-page issue of the famous restaurant chain’s Big Boy Comics #470, apparently published in 1997 and produced by Craig Yoe’s own art shop, which was penciled by Steve Ditko and inked by Luke McDonnell. Script by Craig Boldman. [TM & © Elias Brothers Restaurants, Inc., & YOE! Studio.]
Steve’s studio near Broadway was surprisingly dark and no bigger than a small walk-in closet. The thin comicbook artist squeezed behind his drawing board and sat on the one well-worn chair in his digs. With his expressive hands he motioned me to sit on a tall stack of what looked like fanzines on the floor. At a glance I realized they were simply-produced amateur-looking propaganda from Objectivist true believers.
Ditko appeared to very much like the idea of drawing in a humorous animation-type style. His awe-inspiring pencils showed a master storyteller at work, as did everything he ever did from his first assignments in comics to his last efforts with his publishing partner Robin Snyder.
I was a little upset by Steve’s total lack of any interest in the project, but Paul Levitz, who knew and had worked with Steve as the publisher of DC Comics, told me later that this was just Ditko’s way. Paul assured me that Ditko was just being honest and I shouldn’t take anything personally.
The resulting book, The Art of Ditko (with an intro by Stan Lee extolling his stated co-creator’s brilliance) was followed by The Creativity of Ditko. (Levitz wrote the intro to that one with Ditko’s expressed blessings). I did more Ditko books—Ditko Monsters: Gorgo and Ditko Monsters: Konga. Then we published Ditko’s Shorts (a book I did with Mark Knox of Steve’s 1-, 2-, and 3-pagers that showed off his stunning storytelling chops). All along, I continued to offer Steve involvement of any kind, monetary or editorial or otherwise. He assured me he absolutely wanted nothing of the sort, but told me, “Keep doing what you’re doing!” I have kept doing such, and even today when I heard the news of Steve’s passing I was finishing up a new book comprised primarily of some of my inspiration’s stunning stories.
Art & Creativity The Art of Ditko and The Creativity of Ditko, Craig Yoe’s first two books collecting the work of the Amazing SpiderMan artist. [Art TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
Speaking of stories, I always was a little wistful whenever I came to the last panel of a comicbook tale illustrated by Steve and found the words “The End.” I could never get enough of the masterful artist’s work. Now those words apply to the life of the unique genius who will never again thrill us with another new line of ink, and the words “The End” cut very deep indeed.
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(Above:) Ditko’s “Stretching Things” from Farrell’s Fantastic Fears #5 (Jan. 1954), recolored by Bernie Mireault in 1991. This story, scripted by Bruce Hamilton, was one of Ditko’s first! [© Farrell Publications.]
(Above:) Gilbert’s “Revenge Of The Boneless Man,” drawn in 1991 for Hamilton’s Grave Tales and published in 2005 in Atomeka’s Mr. Monster: Who Watches The Garbagemen? Color by Bernie Mireault. [© Michael T. Gilbert.]
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Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt!
First Love… by Michael T. Gilbert
Hooked on Ditko! 1959 was the year Grandma Nurock gave me a beat-up copy of Marvel’s Tales to Astonish #1. Jack Kirby’s lead story featured a mutated turtle, roughly half a zillion feet tall. Wow! Tales illustrated by Jack Davis and Carl Burgos followed. But the story that really hooked me was “I Know the Secret of the Poltergeist!”— illustrated by you-know-who!
Steve Didn’t Put All His “X” In One Basket! (Above:) “The Thing from Planet X” from Tales of Suspense #3 (May 1959). Scripter unknown. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
I was seven years old. And so began my sixty-year love affair with Steve Ditko. Ditko’s art was direct and powerful, the storytelling wildly inventive and compelling. Moody black areas gave the stories solidity. Ditko’s characters were warm and ethnic-looking—a stark contrast to the cool, WASPy heroes drawn by DC mainstays like Carmine Infantino and Mike Sekowsky.
“I’ve Got A Secret!” (Above:) Ditko’s splash and final panel for “I Know the Secret of the Poltergeist!” from Tales to Astonish #1 (Jan 1959). Scripter unknown. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
By contrast, the hero of Ditko’s “Poltergeist!” tale looked like a Polish peasant. In this story an investigator devoted to debunking the supernatural comes to a young couple’s house—a house apparently haunted by mischievous spooks called Poltergeists.
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He’s determined to find a logical, scientific explanation for floating chairs and such. Eventually the investigator does manage to provide logical explanations for all the seemingly supernatural events. However, in a twist ending, the investigator turns out to be one of those very creatures working undercover to maintain the secrecy of his fellow Poltergeists. Ditko’s final panel, with the investigator shedding his disguise as his fellow Poltergeists cavort in the background, was a visual tour de force. Not long after, Gram gave me another Marvel monster comic, Tales of Suspense #3, with “The Thing from Planet X.” This one was signed “Ditko.” “Planet X” demonstrated that Ditko could draw space monsters every bit as well as supernatural horrors. In this tale, an evil space-plant with a hypnotic brain enslaves a group of star travelers. Ditko’s imaginative depictions of eerie space creatures, heroic astronauts, and sci-fi machinery made the futuristic terror tale come to life. This kid found it positively chilling!
Ditko’s Cold War Warrior!
Lemme Atom!
My love affair with Ditko took another leap when Charlton debuted a new super-hero, “Captain Atom,” in their science-fiction title Space Adventures. Issue #33 (March 1960), to be precise.
(Top:) The relatively small splash panel form Ditko’s first “Captain Atom” story, from Space Adventures #33 (March 1960)—as re-colored later (see p. 2 for the original coloring) for a reprint issue.
It’s important to remember that there were only a handful of super-heroes on the stands in 1960, so this was a special event.
(Directly above:) Panel from Space Adventures #36 (Oct. 1960). Script to both tales by Joe Gill. [© the respective copyright holders.]
Years earlier, Steve had provided inks to Simon & Kirby’s short-lived Captain 3-D comic, but this was Ditko’s first solo super-hero effort. At age nine, it hit me like a ton of bricks. In Joe Gill’s script, Air Force Captain Allen Adam was
disintegrated in a military accident, and then reassembled as nuclear-powered Captain Atom! The Captain’s ornate uniform was a knockout. Ditko’s ability to design striking costumes was apparent even then. That talent would come in handy a couple of years later when he created Spider-Man’s iconic uniform, as well as those of a bevy of his colorful adversaries. Captain Atom was bursting with energy under Ditko’s brush. His body had muscles to spare, and Ditko’s inking made Cap’s costume look like atomic chain mail. In flight, Captain Atom resembled a glowing comet! America’s Ace Commie-Basher! One of my favorite Cap stories was Joe Gill’s “The Crisis!” from Space Adventures #40. Gill’s anti-Communist right-wing political slant was perfectly in sync with Ditko’s own politics. In the late 1950s, Russian dictator Nikita Khrushchev was America’s most feared super-villain. We kids hated that dirty Commie—and so did Captain Atom. Only, unlike us, Cap could do something about it! “The Crisis!” tells of a bald Khrushchev look-alike, Malnov, who threatens the U.S. with an array of nuclear missiles. It looks bad for the Land of the Free until Captain Atom rams right through that Soviet arsenal with his atomic body.
Another Kind Of “Rocket Science” America’s answer to the Communist Cold War threat. From Charlton’s Space Adventures #40 (June 1961). [© the respective copyright holders.]
Still unaware of Cap’s attack, Malnov threatens America with nuclear annihilation. But when an aide quietly informs the U.S. ambassador that America’s Ace has destroyed all the Commie missiles, the ambassador answers the Russkie’s threats with a single word: “Nuts!” This was a time when we kids were practicing “duck and
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Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt!
cover” exercises in school in preparation for a possible Russian atomic strike. Gill and Ditko’s story made me feel just a little bit safer. True, it was propaganda, but Ditko’s art made it first-rate propaganda. For my money, no one has ever depicted the oppressive evil of Communism more effectively than Ditko did in these stories. Decades later, when I drew an “Iron Curtain” flashback sequence for Eclipse’s Mr. Monster #2, I was inspired by Ditko’s bleak “Captain Atom” pages. But Ditko was more than a superb propagandist. He was also really, really funny! Wicked Funny! Take, for example, “Way Out, Man,” from Charlton’s Unusual Tales. Joe Gill wrote a goofy send-off of the “Beat Generation,” and Ditko ran with it. The beatniks shown on the story’s splash page are remarkable, each drawn with their own distinct facial and body types. The scene is full of life, and everyone’s having fun. Later Steve would portray such “bums” in a nastier light, as Ditko’s right-wing politics became more pronounced. Silly Ditko Beatniks would soon be replaced by sneering hippies brandishing protest signs. But this delightful tale was drawn in the more innocent early ’60s. In this story, Martians visit Earth and wind up hanging with the Beatniks. Ditko’s depictions of this kooky crowd were right out of Mad magazine. Crazy, man, crazy!
The Perfect Marvel Age: Eleven! Charlton had some decent comics, but Marvels were my favorite. When I was eleven, I scored a copy of Amazing Fantasy #15 as part of a trade deal with schoolmates. Yeah, that’s right. The first “Spider-Man” story. A couple of months later, my family stopped by Grandma’s Bronx apartment, and she gave me a second copy. Bummer! And somehow a little later I found myself with a third copy.
At The Corner Of Bleecker And Barsoom? Ditko makes fun of Beatniks and Martians in the Joe Gill-scripted “Way Out, Man,” from Unusual Tales #29 (Aug 1961). [© the respective copyright holders.]
Luckily (!), I was able to quickly trade away my dupes. Each of which now go for up to a half a million in near-mint condition. Which pretty much describes how my copies looked in 1962. Oh, to have them now! But who cared about money? I had a brand new Marvel hero to discover, drawn by one of my favorite artists—the same guy who’d done such an amazing job on “Captain Atom” two years earlier. And this was just the start! For thirty-eight issues and two annuals, Stan Lee and Steve Ditko spun pure gold. I won’t belabor the obvious about their contributions to “Spider-Man.” There’s plenty of that, I’m sure, in the rest of this issue of Alter Ego. For the moment, let’s forget about Lee’s snappy dialogue, chatty letter pages, and clever integration of soap-opera elements into the super-hero stew. And while we’re at it, let’s forget about Ditko’s mastery of human anatomy, or his superb action scenes. We know all that. What made “Spider-Man” so special to me was the humor. It would pop up in the most unlikely places. Like the time that Peter’s tormentor, Flash Thompson, dressed up as Spider-Man when our hero was missing in action. It took the villain about one minute to show Flash what a poor substitute he was. Or the scene where Spider-Man’s resident tormentor, J. Jonah Jameson, thinks he’s finally defeated his wall-crawling foe, only to discover just the opposite. Seeing his gloating face crack in a beautiful three-panel sequence was priceless!
More ”Village People” Another kooky pic from “Way Out, Man,” from Unusual Tales #29, (Aug 1961). Dig that crazy spaceman! [© the respective copyright holders.]
Then there was one of my all-time favorite sequences. By now, Ditko was essentially writing the issues, with Lee supplying finished dialogue. In their story “Bring Back My Goblin to Me!,” Ditko arranged for Peter Parker (who’d lost his Spider-Man costume the previous issue), to buy a substitute at a costume shop. Unfortunately the cheap material starts to fall apart while he’s battling a bevy of crooks. How humiliating! Later, while on a pier,
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our hero trips on a rotting plank and falls into the water, causing his suit to shrink! To add insult to injury, a group of kids witness the embarrassing scene. As Spidey pulls himself out of the water, the dripping hero apologizes, saying that he won’t be giving any autographs. One kid whispers to his pal, “I haven’t got the heart to tell him that we’re Human Torch fans, anyway!” As I kid I did something I almost never do with any comic, much less a super-hero comic: I laughed out loud!
Baby Steps! It’s worth noting that the boy who made the last comment was black. Lee and Ditko had been quietly integrating the strip for a while, adding a “negro” cop or background figure as the series progressed. Such scenes were very rare in comics at the time. Baby steps. Lee was a dyed-in-the-wool liberal and Ditko a hard-right conservative, but this was something they agreed on. This, in part, because Ditko believed a man should be judged by his actions, not his color. For comics, it was a welcome move forward. Dreams Of A Wannabe Cartoonist! I have a clear memory of being a bored twelve-year-old, stuck at my dad’s tailor shop after school, waiting for him to take me to Hebrew school. I entertained myself by asking one of those questions bored Marvel fans often asked themselves. Namely, who was my favorite cartoonist, Jack Kirby or Steve Ditko? I ran this over and over in my head. It was a close call, but I finally picked Ditko. Why? While Kirby excelled at larger-than-life heroes and villains, futuristic cities, and wild machinery, Ditko’s work focused on the ordinary. His people had baggy eyes, wore rumpled clothes, and lived in gritty, shabby cities. I’d seen those cities and could relate to them more than Kirby’s grand visions. I liked small. Also, Ditko showed me the beauty in ugliness. On some level I decided to do the same if I ever became a cartoonist.
Building A Better Marvel Universe! When it came to Marvel super-heroes, Ditko’s “Spider-Man” was just the beginning. Steve also drew a couple of the earliest “Hulk” stories. Issue three was the first Incredible Hulk I stumbled on, discovered in a drug store spinner rack while mom shopped at the local A&P supermarket next door. It wasn’t a Ditko issue, but Kirby’s art looked really scary. I begged mom to buy it for me, but apparently she decided 12¢ would break the bank. But, a few months later, my dad treated me to a burger and a Coke, and then let me buy a comic. And there on the stands was Hulk #6, the final issue of the first series. It was totally Ditko, and I can’t tell you how many times this kid read and re-read the issue! Later, I managed to score the second issue, featuring the evil Toad Men. Steve’s moody inks over Kirby’s pencils made this, to me, the all-time definitive Hulk. No wonder. Even Stan Lee once stated that Ditko was Kirby’s best inker. Other Marvel heroes were graced by the Ditko touch. Steve did some last-minute inking on the first Daredevil when Bill Everett missed a deadline. He also redesigned Kirby’s bulky Iron Man costume, making it sleek and shiny. To be honest, I still prefer
Double Take? No—Triple Take! Oops! J. Jonah Jameson’s triumph turns to ashes in this scene from Amazing Spider-Man #19 (Dec. 1964). [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Kirby’s massive grey version, but I’m in a minority on that one. And then there was Dr. Strange.
Strange Bedfellows! “It is a great pleasure and privilege for the editors of Strange Tales to present, quietly and without fanfare, the first of a new series, based upon a different kind of super-hero…” said the splash panel caption introducing Marvel’s newest hero. “Strange” perfectly describes Doctor Strange’s debut. If you blinked, you missed it. Marvel’s newest hero was indeed introduced “without fanfare,” stuck in the back of Strange Tales, without even a cover mention. That may have been because it was one of the few early Marvel heroes that writer/editor Stan Lee didn’t at least co-create. According to Ditko, Stan asked Steve to come up with a Strange Tales backup series. Lee’s only contribution to that first story was providing finished dialogue and changing Steve’s original title, “Mr. Strange,” to the now-iconic “Doctor Strange.” Fandom first heard about it in a short statement Stan gave in a 1963 to the fanzine, The Comic Reader. “Well, we have a new character in the works for Strange Tales, just a 5-page filler named Dr. Strange. Ditko is gonna draw him. It has sort of a black magic theme. The first story is nothing great, but perhaps we can make something of him,” said Lee dismissively. Then he added… “’Twas Steve’s idea.” Marvel’s chief cheerleader wasn’t exactly gushing over Ditko’s new character. But inasmuch as the story had already been drawn, Stan agreed to give it a try. I missed that first tale, buried in the back of Strange Tales #110, but did pick up the following one. “Doctor Strange” quickly became one of my favorites—each installment drenched in deep dark shadows and other Eisner-esqe touches. Ditko, who collected Will Eisner’s ‘40s-era Spirit Sections as a kid, likely studied Bob Powell’s “Mr. Mystic” strip in the back of the comicbook-style newspaper section. Not surprisingly, there were some notable similarities between Doctor Strange and Mr. Mystic, including a talent for astral projection. Though Doctor Strange had a slow start, he proved to be an enduring character for Marvel, eventually leading to a blockbuster 2016 movie. And all because of an unassuming cartoonist who quietly labored long hours over a drawing board, creating his own special magic. “’Twas Steve’s idea,” indeed.
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Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt!
Excelsior! But all good things must end, and in 1966 Steve left Marvel and began freelancing for various companies. It was a shocking loss for this “Spider-Man” and “Doctor Strange” fan. Devastating! After Marvel, I found Ditko’s new comics to be a mixed bag. Steve’s art for Tower’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents was terrific, and his wash-tone drawings for Warren’s Creepy and Eerie were some of his very best work. He also drew tons of art for Charlton’s spook comics. Ditko was working from other writers’ scripts on those books. There were disappointing projects, too. Dell’s Captain Atom knockoff, Nukla, and stories for ACG’s Forbidden Worlds didn’t do much for me. Both were marred by uninspired Sal Trapani inking. Ditko was always his own best inker.
Playing “Traps” (Above left:) Baron Mordo imprisons Doc in this Ditko splash page from Strange Tales #117 (Feb 1964). Script by Stan Lee. (Above right:) Doc gets trapped in a Genie’s lamp in Michael T. Gilbert’s Lee/Ditko homage from Marvel Double-Shot #4 (April 2003). [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
And speaking of Captain Atom…
In December 1965, shortly before leaving Marvel, Ditko began drawing new “Captain Atom” stories at Charlton, and even updated Cap’s costume shortly thereafter. Ditko followed up by completely reinventing their venerable Blue Beetle character. I thought the new Beetle was pure genius. Ditko also introduced another crimefighting character, The Question.
Enter: Mr. A. The Question debuted the same year as another Ditko creation, Mr. A. Both The heroes were cut from the same cloth— uncompromising hard-liners out to destroy evil, not coddle it. Everything about Mr. A. was black-&-white, even his business card!
Another Spidey “Splash” Page! A literal “splash” page, this time—from Amazing Spider-Man #27 (Aug. 1965), courtesy of Lee & Ditko. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
“Mr. A.” was the ultimate expression of late-’60s Ditko. Steve’s pal, cartoonist Wally Wood, invited Ditko to contribute to witzend, a new professional fanzine he was publishing. There would be no pay, but Ditko could copyright his character. Ditko would own it. No editor telling him what to do,
Dr. Strange’s Grandpa? Bob Powell’s “Mr. Mystic” projects his astral self, Dr. Strange-style— only decades earlier, in the May 12, 1940, Spirit Section. [TM & © Will Eisner Studios, Inc.]
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changing his words. No Stan Lee. Ditko jumped at the chance! I was sixteen in 1967 when Mr. A. made his first appearance, in witzend #3. It did not disappoint. The first story had Mr. A. refusing to help as a young killer falls to his death. A little over a decade earlier, the Comics Code had sanitized the field, so a scene like that was something of a shock. But witzend was primarily sold directly to fans, thereby bypassing the Code. Ditko’s story depicted a level of comicbook violence not seen by fandom since the mid-‘50s. I loved it! What I didn’t love was the preaching. Mr. A. was good at two things: fighting crime and proselytizing about it. After defeating the bad guy, Ditko’s hero would gas on about the nature of good and evil and so on, filling panel after panel with turgid dialogue. I put up with it because I loved Ditko’s work so much, but it felt a bit like eating spinach. It was supposed to be good for me, but I didn’t much like it. I wasn’t alone. Ditko’s later sales never matched those of his early Marvel work. Regardless, Ditko was clearly passionate about Mr. A., drawing him for over half a century, until his death in 2018. In 1967 Steve created the equally pedantic “Avenging World” series. Dozens more in a similar vein followed, many done gratis for various fanzines. If Stan Lee had been the Paul McCartney “feel-good” member of the Lee/Ditko band, Steve seemed determined that his comics would go in the opposite direction. No feuds with Flash Thompson or sticky romantic entanglements with the likes of Betty Brant or Liz Allen. Ditko’s heroes didn’t have time for such frivolities. Most of his heroes’ alter egos were no-nonsense reporters and such, straight from Ditko central casting. None had hobbies or any apparent personal life. That struck me as reflective of Steve himself, or at least the Ditko I imagined him to be. Most of Steve’s life seemed devoted to his work. No wife, no kids, just hours and hours at the drawing board.
DC And Beyond… Even without Stan Lee, Ditko kept creating new characters. The big news in 1968 was Steve’s defection to DC, with two new titles, The Creeper and The Hawk and The Dove. DC’s house ads promised great things, but the comics left me surprisingly unmoved. Ditko’s art was fine, but without Stan’s warm dialogue, the characters felt distant, wooden. Worse, the stories increasingly became excuses for Ditko’s political diatribes—cyphers delivering Objectivist talking points rather than flesh-and-blood characters. As the emotional content of his earlier work faded, I began to lose interest. Like most fans, I wanted entertainment, not lectures. In later years, Ditko’s art declined. He seemed to turn inward, depending more on stock characters, rather than drawing from life. Eventually, his work resembled crude “outsider” art, though his imagery remained wildly original to the end. At his best, Ditko was hard to beat. The comics he helped create in the ’50s and ’60s are timeless classics today. But that’s only part of the story. Ditko continued inventing quirky characters throughout his career, whether it was Shade the Changing Man, Speedball, and
“A” For Effort! Mr. A. from witzend #4 (1967). [TM & © Estate of Steve Ditko.]
Squirrel Girl for mainstream comics, or creator-owned heroes like Static, The Whisperer, Void, and Kill-Joy. Ditko made each one special. And, on a personal level, though I rarely agreed with Steve’s politics, I’ve always admired his integrity, his talent, and his work ethic.
And In Conclusion… If I’ve given short shrift to Ditko’s later career, blame lack of space. Seven pages are too few to describe a career as rich and prolific as Steve’s. More importantly, the works that most affected me were the comics I read as a kid. Nowadays, when I need inspiration, I re-read “I Know the Secret of the Poltergeist!” or “The Thing from Planet X!” and I’m instantly transported into a world of unbridled imagination—the world of my youth. Steve’s world. Great art is like that. Even though he’s gone, I’ll never forget Steve Ditko. Because, no matter how old you are, you never forget your first, great love. Till next time…
MARK DITKO Interview STEVE DITKO’s Nephew Speaks To Alex Grand
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UBLISHER’S NOTE: This interview originally aired on August 2, 2021, on the Comic Book Historians podcast. ©2021 Comic Book Historians. It was transcribed by Alex Grand and copyedited by John Morrow. ALEX GRAND: Let’s kind of start off with, first, tell us your exact relation to Steve Ditko. Your dad is his brother, right? Basically that’s the relation. MARK DITKO: Yep, yep. Steve Ditko is also my godfather. So I’ve known him since I was born, pretty much; obviously he was around when I was a kid, but then he and I kind of connected up after I moved out of Johnstown, in the early ’90s—’90, ’91. We kind of connected up through written correspondence. I mean, I would go back every now and then and see him over Christmas or something when I was visiting. But we pretty much started a written correspondence around ’90, ’91, and then that continued for the decades beyond that. ALEX: So then it sounds like when you were a kid, he would come and visit on holidays. And then as you grew up and you moved out of Johnstown, your connections were through letters. And then if in person, it’d be back at Jonestown again on a holiday or something like that. MARK: Yeah, exactly. When I was a kid he always popped in at least two or three times a year. He was always there. I remember him being around obviously [at] Christmas and then he would come in the summer sometimes, because we would always have a family barbecue and get-together in the summer. And he was always there flipping burgers or something. So I always saw him around then. I don’t know when he stopped doing the kind of the summers or the multi-visits, but he always maintained his holiday Christmas visit. So sometimes I would go back over Christmas and I would see him then. But early on as a kid he was always around multiple times a year. You know what? I didn’t even really realize that he didn’t live there because as a kid, he was around, we
would have family get together and he’d be around. He was just there. ALEX: So what, he was driving to Johnstown from New York then? MARK: No, he would take the train in. ALEX: The train. There you go.
Honoring Ditko Upon his passing, DC Comics ran this memorial tribute. For a creator who’s largely thought of as a Marvel and Charlton artist, Steve certainly made his mark at DC. [Characters TM & © DC Comics]
MARK: Yeah. He was always on the train. In fact, he wrote to me one time that [when] he was on one of his train visits, on the way back, he wrote multiple issues of a certain character he was working on. Because he’d work on the train. ALEX: First, so the audience knows—you’re an engineer by trade, you’ve written books on it, you’ve managed big projects. From what I’ve understood and the way I’ve analyzed Steve Ditko’s work, he approached everything analytically. Like for example, he would see the Jack Kirby version of what could be Spider-Man and then Stan kind of scrapped that and said, “Steve, you come up with something.” And then he analyzed what would be a Spider-Man better than anyone in history ever has before or since, with webs coming out of the wrist and the weird body movements—the web costume, which is the best costume, I think, in history. It seemed to me like he analyzed what would make a proper Spider-Man and then hashed it out. And if that’s correct, would you say that you share a similar analysis of the environment around you?
Uncle Steve Ditko with his nephew Mark (right).
MARK: You know what? You mentioned it earlier; to me, it’s just analytical thinking; you’re not getting lost in some kind of emotional something. You’re creating a fantasy. I actually thought
Mark Ditko Interview
about what you just said when he was creating Dr. Strange, and he was creating this alternate universe, what would it be like now if you... when we went to clean out his studio and his apartment, I ended up taking his library, and you look at what he read or what he studied and the magazines that he had subscriptions to, he was taking all of that into account when he was creating something. And yeah, I would say, okay, art, we know art is a... I don’t want to say a subjective type thing... let me rephrase that, because really art is subjective from the observer, but from the creator’s perspective, I think the creator does have a thought process that obviously goes into [it], especially panel layouts and things like that, and then the imagery. So yeah, he was very, I’ll say, scientific. I mean, as a kid, I know my dad told me that in the barn, he had his own little place that he had built that was kind of the secret room where he had all of his collections and chemistry sets. And he was, I would say, a mad scientist of sorts. He needed that just in his thought process.
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MARK: I probably remember Konga around the 1963, ’64 era, maybe ’65 or so. So I’m loving Konga as a kid, it was just a great storyline. It was very upbeat, it was fun and playful, but then my uncle would come in—I remember some Christmases, my older brother who was two years older than me, he would draw, he was always sketching and drawing stuff. We all drew, but he was older. He took that first leap into there and I remember that he would show my uncle and my uncle would give him pointers. He would put a piece of tracing paper over it and kind of comment on it and stuff. But when I found out that he could draw, I would say, “Uncle Steve, can you draw me a gorilla?” Because I loved Konga. So I’d say, “Hey, can you draw me a gorilla?” And he’d just whip out this gorilla and I’d be like, “Man...”. It was so fun so I was like, “Man, can you draw!” I had no idea he was drawing the comics that I was reading. I had no idea. So it really wasn’t until—I don’t know when the cat got out of the bag, but it wasn’t something that the family talked about. My dad didn’t talk about it, my aunts and uncles didn’t talk about it. When my uncle Steve came home, it wasn’t like, “Oh, here’s what I’m working on now, look at me.” It wasn’t like that. So it probably wasn’t until I was maybe 14, 15 or something that I realized what he had created. ALEX: That’s great. What a cool revelation too, huh? MARK: Yeah, I know. It was just like, “Whoa, uncle Steve, you
Taking One For The Team The allegedly camera-shy Ditko was anything but with family around (that’s young Mark Ditko at far right in 1975). Photo courtesy Mark Ditko.
ALEX: So when did you find out that he was the same Steve Ditko that co-created Spider-Man? MARK: That probably really wasn’t until I was in maybe my mid-teens, because as a kid, he was just another one of my uncles, my fun uncle that we would goof around with and he would play, he would goof around and wrestle with us. And as I got older, he taught us how to throw knives and hatchets and just playful type stuff. But early on, as a kid, there were always comics around the house. And at some point I probably need to ask my dad, “Where did those come from?” Because, they just appeared. I’m a kid, I’m four years old, I don’t know where this stuff just appears from. I don’t know if my uncle was sending it to the family. I’d have to not believe that my dad was buying it. I think my uncle probably was sending it to everyone, but they just appeared around the house. So I started reading Konga; that was kind of my earliest recollection of reading comics. ALEX: And what year would you say you started reading comics?
Still Swingin’ Mark’s early love of Konga (top) was rejuvenated in this 1991 sketch by his uncle. [Konga TM & © the respective owner.]
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rock, man.” ALEX: Why do you think he wasn’t telling everybody that... was he just keeping stuff close to the chest? Is that something in the mind of his generation, and being a Ditko of that generation, that they just didn’t verbalize their achievements so much? What was the source of his, let’s say, aversion to soaking in the limelight on his achievement with Spider-Man and Dr. Strange? MARK: No, I think you kind of hit on it—and this is just my opinion, because I don’t know why he did what he did, really, other than I know what we wrote together. I know what we talked about. And a lot of this stuff I kind of have to extrapolate from the family because, hey, the kids are similar. My dad obviously has similar characteristics as my uncle and my aunts, and even my grandparents, his parents. They were just, I want to say, with that kind of immigrant mentality. For second generation Americans, they... in fact, Zack Kruse, in his book Mysterious Travelers, he mentions a book in there, and I talk about it all the time: For Bread with Butter, the history of the immigrants in Johnstown. And it talks about their attitudes and how education was not the highest priority. It was a priority, but doing something, having a good work ethic and buckling down and doing a job, was actually the highest priority. Because look, you’re an immigrant, you got to get paid. You just got to have that work ethic. So he had that, my parents have that, my aunts and uncles have it, all of them. I saw that in my family, which was really probably something that was just a general immigrant mentality. But I’d say not everybody could be successful, because they have to have a certain talent. They have to have a certain intelligence and mindset.
Dearly Beloved Steve & Mark in 1992 at a church ceremony for Mark’s youngest daughter Stefanie. (Left:) Detail from original art for Strange Tales #117 (Feb. 1964), page 3. [Dr. Strange TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
to them. So I’ll say they were geniuses, learning the language themselves, learning their own skillset, become a master carpenter by himself and just learning and learning. They were sponges and they had the intelligence to do that. So I think that that work ethic is what I saw in my uncle, that he had that capability to just put his mind to something that was a real passion, and commit and be able to really be successful. ALEX: So I know that there are basically two layers to every question about Steve Ditko to you, right? There is what you learned from him about that particular topic, and then there’s also the subjective of your impression, of why something could be. MARK: Yeah.
My grandfather on my mom’s side—there was Grandma and Grandpap, on my dad’s side it was Poppy and Bubba, so that was how we kind of referred
ALEX: And I know that interplay exists anytime anyone asks you about your uncle, but I wanted to ask you a couple of things. Was he religious or atheist or agnostic? MARK: Well, I would say that he was born into a religion; we’re Byzantine Catholic. So we were born in that. But no, that wasn’t something that he really followed. He believed that this was one lifetime and when it was done, it was done, and make the best of it. So that was kind of his attitude. ALEX: Did he ever mention any childhood comics influences? It’s said that he loved Jerry Robinson’s Batman.
Fighting Americans Steve (far left and inset) during his Army service.
MARK: Yup. ALEX: Will Eisner’s Spirit. And then also, Mort Meskin had made an impression on him when he worked under him at the Simon & Kirby Studio. Did those discussions ever come up about his childhood comic collection, and as a budding comic artist?
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slicked-back hair, they had round glasses, they were all of that same imagery. So I have this strip, and something I should post is, “Which one is Peter Parker?” They all look like him. ALEX: So he’s an amalgam of that era, basically. MARK: Yeah, exactly. He was just having a Wally Wood type of figure there. Like you said, he had a task and he’s looking at all the imagery, and the creativeness is how would a geeky person really look [with] round glasses and skinny and scrawny, and how would he be perceived? He may have pulled elements from his own past, but he wasn’t saying, “Oh, I’m writing myself into this character.” No, he was just creating a brand new character, Peter Parker. ALEX: I love that you’re shedding light on stuff like this. Did any discussions ever come up about his time at Charlton, and Joe Gill? Any of those people—has any of that ever come up?
Here’s To You, Mr. Robinson Ditko shares his affection for Jerry Robinson with a fan in 2007.
MARK: Well, the only thing that I have are the stories that my dad would have told me, how he was—well, his dad, Poppy, was just a fanatical comic industry nut. He loved reading comics. My dad said his vacations, when Poppy would take a vacation, his vacation was getting a collection of comics, sitting down in his favorite chair, and reading comics.
MARK: Oh, yeah, little fragments. In fact, I really need to periodically go and re-read through all of our letters, because that’s one thing that he really—first of all, he loved working with Joe Gill, he really did. And he loved working at Charlton. And I think that’s been noted many times, but I also noticed that in writing to him, because it was about the level of freedom that he had, he loved that ability to have a sort of uninhibited creative outlet, that he was able to do whatever he felt was right and he didn’t feel encumbered by.
ALEX: So a third route of information here is what your dad also told you, too. So that’s great. Basically, then, Steve Ditko’s dad was a big comics person. Was it comic strips or comicbooks, or what was it? MARK: Everything. It was comicbooks; otherwise, he was reading the strips out of the paper. [Steve’ brother] Patrick or Steve was always getting up, getting the latest comics, and getting the paper so that their dad could read those comics. He just loved them. Somebody made a comment about it, in fact—I read it in Lenny Schwartz’s Ditko play that he put together. He sent me the play, the whole script of that before they did it the first time. So I read through it and it was so painful because it wasn’t truth, it wasn’t accurate. And I didn’t get it; I’d just like to apologize to Lenny. I gave him so much crap: “Oh, you can’t say this, you can’t say that, that’s not true.” He was putting my uncle into the role of Peter Parker, because it’s a play, and once that clicked, I was like, “Oh, this is actually for entertainment.” It was like, “Okay, I get it.” ALEX: People make that comparison to him and Peter Parker all the time. But the Ditko family does not feel that that’s accurate, right? MARK: I don’t know what anybody else really thinks in the family. I have my own opinion and to me, Peter Parker was just an amalgam of that attitude. Just to kind of take that little tangent there, I was looking at some books—I think there was one book Craig Yoe did and then in Ditko Unleashed, there were some pictures of supposedly Steve Ditko in a 1944 yearbook. He graduated in ’45, but there were these pictures that were supposed to be in a ’44 yearbook of him. And I posted it on Facebook, and I did some research like, “No, that’s actually not him.” And that was so controversial. But what I did is, I went through everybody in the ‘45 yearbook where he was in there, and I found [what] must’ve been eight or ten people that all look like Peter Parker, they all look the same. They all had
View To A Gill Steve always gave credit where it was due—in this instance, to Joe Gill as the c0-creator of Captain Atom. [Captain Atom TM & © DC Comics.]
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Was it not really? What’s your take?
Type Cast Joe Gill knocking out a script in the 1960s.
He wrote to me about how sometimes editors just would just drive him crazy and colorists would get it wrong. He would do color samples of different things and they wouldn’t use them. I mean, he was a big proponent of the division of labor. He did his role, he let the others do their role, and he was strong enough as an individual to just go, “Okay, look, this is just the mechanism, the machinery, the way it works. Do I agree with it? No, but you know what? I’m moving on. I’m moving on. I’m going through them, I got more work to do.” So he would just sort of let that go, but didn’t necessarily agree with it. ALEX: What aspect of Joe Gill do you think he liked? Was it that Joe Gill was just a professional and he pumped out a script and that was it? What do you think that was? MARK: I can’t really come up with anything specific other than I think just naturally what my uncle liked, was somebody who he could really communicate with. He could say something, he could work with them. There was obviously a meeting, just a meeting of the minds. ALEX: So they actually had inner interplay with each other? I didn’t know that. MARK: Obviously there was a dynamic there, there was something that clicked, and I’ll just kind of go back to at the end of the Marvel days, there was something that was not clicking with Stan and him. And he was one that liked a positive environment. There was a creative environment; it wasn’t stifled at Charlton. He liked that he had that with Joe Gill. ALEX: That’s cool to know, because it actually helps understand his essay on why he left Spider-Man, saying that there’s a breakdown in communication and he just didn’t feel like being there anymore. And that’s interesting to put those two next to each other, those situations. So this is another thing we’ve spoken on the phone about before, but he had a couple of flare-ups from tuberculosis, one in the later ’50s and another one in the later ’60s. And I think during these times, he would leave New York, come back to Johnstown. Did your family ever talk about that? And how psychologically impactful do you think tuberculosis really was to him?
MARK: Okay. And this is my take; I personally didn’t witness any [transformation]. I didn’t see him change in any way from what I knew to before and after these episodes, although when the first one happened, I wasn’t even born yet. That was the mid-’50s, but I asked my dad about that. When he got Not Clicking really sick, From Robin Snyder’s The Comics, here’s Steve’s Bubba, his comparison of Stan Lee’s input into the creation mom, actually of Spider-Man, vs. his own, making the case that had to come it was a true collaboration. [Spider-Man TM & © Marvel Characters,Inc.] and get him because he (Below:) Ditko’s recurring tuberculosis is said to was really sick. be the reason he was unable to complete the final issue of Beware The Creeper (#6, March 1969). When he got [Creeper TM & © DC Comics.] back there, this was in, I guess, the mid-’50s. My dad would have been late teens, late end of high school, or later years of high school. I said, “Do you remember him on his death bed in some traumatic physical condition?” And he said, “No, no, I don’t really remember that.” So that wasn’t something that was visibly traumatizing from my dad’s perspective. So he didn’t see that. ALEX: I see; they felt he was pretty much the same guy before and after these flare-ups. MARK: I never really asked them that, but that never came up in a conversation that, “Oh, yeah. He really changed after that.” I didn’t hear any of that. ALEX: And you were actually there during the second one. MARK: Yeah. ALEX: And during that time, you didn’t feel any change in body language from him or anything like that? MARK: No. No. And you know what? Even beyond that, later when we would write and when we would meet and we would talk.... he was just Uncle Steve. I didn’t see him having some skewed point of view on certain topics or interaction, because of some experience that he had. I didn’t see anything like that. It was not like he was more withdrawn or anything
Mark Ditko Interview
like that. ALEX: Yeah. It’s not like a Syd Barrett from Pink Floyd. He was never the same after that one. MARK: That one was very observable. Yeah. ALEX: I see you have a John Galt T-shirt on, which is awesome. Did he ever discuss his discovery of Ayn Rand and how that changed his perception of things? Or if it did? MARK: If you really get down to what our relationship was, initially he was just a fun uncle, and I had experiences with all my uncles, and my uncles
Brawl In The Family Despite The Dove’s constant whining, there were some worthwhile moments in Ditko’s The Hawk & The Dove series—not the least of which was his understanding the importance of family. Shown are a page from #1 (Aug.– Sept. 1968) and the cover of issue #2 (Oct.–Nov. ’68). [TM & © DC Comics.]
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would take us fishing, somebody used to show magic tricks every time they would come over. There was some interaction with the kids and the uncles, and uncle Steve was the fun uncle who was a really good artist. So we kind of had that sort of relationship, but then it changed when I was in my late teens, and I remember being at the kitchen table and he was sitting there—just me and him and I’m [in] long hair braids, hippie, like a real throwback from the ’60s, and just complaining about it. I think it was my first or second year of college. And I’m just complaining about war or some worldwide distasteful situation. We were just chatting about stuff. And he said, “So what are you doing about that?” [I said,] “Nothing. I’m just a kid, it shouldn’t be,” and he said, “You don’t have any right to complain about it.” He said, “If you’re not doing something about it, then you have no right to really complain about it,” and basically said “Shut up. You don’t know what you’re talking about and you’re just going to be a whiner over there.” So I think at that point, my relationship with him shifted into being more of a guru, or a philosophical guru of sorts. So when we would write back and forth together, it was thematic, where I would update him on what I was doing in the business. And then I would update him with some family activity that’s happening with the kids or the brothers or sisters, or my dad. And then it would go into sort of a philosophical conversation about something that is happening in the world or something that is happening in my life, and it would be a philosophical thing. And he would always come back with an answer to each, and then sometimes it would be a little industry section. “Hey, on The Creeper, who came up with this or that? Or what did you mean when you did that?” Because at the same time, I’m re-engaging myself into his comics. So I am reading those and asking him questions. But then he would respond, and on the philosophical side, that was probably more the meat of our dialogue, but he would then send me things. He says, “Have you ever read de Bono?” He would then send me books. So through the ’90s, he was always sending me stuff out of his own library, which I’ve now kind of shifted back. This is his library back here. Part of it. And then the other part is here, but you have things like that purple Dr. Strange Marvel Masterworks. He probably got that from Marvel and he just sent it to me, because he knew I was interested. But he would send me a lot of philosophical books, and at some point Ayn Rand came up. I never really pursued with him like, “Oh, when did you start reading this?” because it was more of a dialogue about the present and saying, “Hey, have you ever read this? This is actually a really good book.”
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MARK: Have you ever read a book that really shifted your perspective on things? Because I know that I have, I’ve read stuff because I am a studier of life. I am one of those guys that reads and I’ve studied the religions of the world. And I do that because I’m just interested. I’m a curious cat. And I think he was similar in that way. And sometimes when you read something, it aligns with your own philosophy and then you go, “Oh wow! You know what? Yes, that’s actually accurate. I could believe that.” So I think in my opinion, it wasn’t some light bulb that just popped on when he read and ran [with it] because he had—and maybe he even wrote me. I’m not sure where I got this. I just read so much. And now since I’m connected to all these people, I’ve read so much information in articles about him. It’s kind of a blur sometimes, what I got directly from him—that’s why I need to reread his letters. At one point he said, he’s not really a spokesman for Objectivism. He’s an Aristotelian. It would always go back to Aristotle. To him, that is what made sense. That’s what clicked, I think, for him, and then things aligned with that. And so to me, I don’t believe that there was some a-ha moment where all of a sudden he became a different person, and this whole idea of him being turned into a cranky recluse or something is just absolutely absurd. ALEX: It’s funny, I think fandom, they either worship, or they’ll get behind some weird negative sentiment, or they’ll get hyperly positive, or it’ll be different camps. It gets confusing for people that just kind of try to casually figure it out. And sometimes a lot of misstatements become truth in a group of people. And that’s why it’s so important for you and your family to do what you’ve been doing.
With Love From Levitz The short-lived series Stalker (original art for #1’s cover shown above, dated June–July 1975) brought together Ditko, Wally Wood (on inks), and Paul Levitz as scripter. While both Wood and Levitz had wonderful things to say about Steve, we doubt “Colin” (below right) would agree, after receiving this “curt” response in the mail. [TM & © DC Comics]
And he started sending me stuff back when I lived in Johnstown, when I was probably complaining about something, He ended up giving me some cassette tapes that he had been listening to and said, “You should listen to this.” It wasn’t a discussion about how his own interests developed. Well, I’m not interviewing him; we’re just having a conversation. It’s almost like, “Hey, have you read this book?” ALEX: And that’s actually like connecting as human beings, is what that is. MARK: Right. Yeah, I wasn’t doing an interview. I wasn’t doing a documentary. ALEX: There is this myth, I think—and tell me if it is a myth—that he was a normal social person, and then when he read Ayn Rand, he became a hermit. To me—and I may be wrong, but correct me, please—if that’s the case, did he always just have a certain analysis and skepticism of the world about him, and that it was more of a healthy digestion of what’s going on around him, and that was pretty much the same guy before and after Ayn Rand? Or did he really just get withdrawn after reading Ayn Rand?
MARK: Well, I’ll just add to that. I think a lot of that comes from people who don’t actually know him. You talk to Mort Todd and you say, “Mort, do you think he was a strange recluse that hated people?” No, people who really knew him, Craig Yoe and anybody else that really connected with him from the early days to the later days, Paul Levitz, all those guys. They know him as a person. They know him as an individual. And I think a lot of that stuff comes from someone who actually didn’t know him, and they latch on to some fragment of something because they wrote a letter or they saw a letter that came back, and he was curt with someone, and then that’s enough to rivet them in, “Oh, he was a cranky old recluse.” It was just like, you didn’t really even know him. You didn’t know him. ALEX: First, would he consider himself a Libertarian? Did he have a voter registration? I mean, did he click with something there? Did he talk about politics? Would he vote? Was he a voter? MARK: I asked him one year. I think it was to, in fact, let me open this document that I grabbed a few snippets out of, and I did ask him about voting. I want to try not to continue to just paraphrase. So it was December 2004, so whenever the 2004 election was, I
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sheet music, and he had obviously tapes, the music that he would listen to. It was all old school stuff, but he was teaching himself the keyboard. ALEX: Oh, really? So he was actually all about learning. That’s cool. MARK: Yep. He was expanding his skillsets of capabilities and abilities of just life. So, yeah, he liked music. I mean, he had a radio that he probably listened to, and I think he had a CD player and he had music. My dad has it now. But the music, it was more of the old school stuff. ALEX: When you say old school, do you mean like 1950s? MARK: Yeah. Lenny [Schwartz] asked me, because he wanted to play some background music in his Ditko play. So I remember talking to my dad and asking him what music he had, that we had taken from the studio. So I have a list of that somewhere, I can’t think of it off the top of my head. Some of those artists are just before my era. ALEX: Did he date or have a girlfriend or ever talk about anything like that?
A Cast Of Dozens In his relatively short run on Amazing Spider-Man, Ditko managed to populate the strip with a wealth of villains and supporting players, most of whom are still being utilized today. Above is a Ditko pin-up from SpiderMan #23 (April 1965). [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.] (Right:) Poster for Lenny Schwartz’s Ditko play. (Below:) Ditko’s letter to Bernie Bubnis about Flo’s passing.
asked him if he had voted, and he said, “No, I didn’t vote. No candidate is for our constitutional Republic, for inalienable, individual and property rights. I didn’t hear any political candidate mention them as a value to be protected.” So he didn’t vote. So I think that’s just an illustration of what his attitude was. So he was for the constitutional Republic, he was for the Constitution. He was for the Founding Fathers and the framers. And he says he didn’t see this in the parties, so no, he’s not going to vote for anybody because no, he doesn’t want to eat either mule meat or dog meat. It’s like, “No, I won’t eat. I won’t eat.” ALEX: Did you ever see him get excited about something, like music? What kind of music did he enjoy? Did he digest pop culture that way? MARK: I think he was more old school because when we went into his studio—I’m not sure if it was his studio or if it was in his apartment; I think it was— he had a keyboard, and he had
MARK: Well, obviously not to me. And it was funny because when I was going to comic conventions in the early ’90s, I did what my uncle hated. I would tell people who I am so that I could go back and see Jack Kirby and Stan Lee and see these guys. So I was talking with Jack Kirby one time and he says, “So, how is your uncle? Did he ever get a girlfriend?” So he was just kind of joking in all those lines, but not that I know of, although when I talked to my mom, my mom said there was a time when he was coming back, that there was a girl that he liked, that liked him back in Johnstown. So when he would come and visit, there was definitely a connection there, but nothing ever really developed from it because he was in New York and she was in Johnstown. I don’t know whatever happened after that, or what might’ve happened in New York, but there was definitely a connection in Johnstown with a girl that just never developed. ALEX: He’s known for his unflinching principles, and he’s appreciated for that and valued for that. Could that have, in any way, made it difficult to compromise for a relationship, do you think? Or is that just too much conjecture to try to go for? MARK: I think probably the best person to really answer that is somebody who chose not to get married, and what was the reasoning behind that? Because I think initially it was just a natural thing where he was interested and he tried these developed connections, but distance just didn’t make it work. Or there’s always this story about him asking, who was the secretary for Stan Lee, Flo Steinberg? Asking her if she
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MARK: Yeah. I think that’s kind of the thing, and then I have my own spin of, look who his studio mate was. You think he’s going to go back to his mom, back in Johnstown, and start promoting what he’s working on these days with his buddy? So I think that tended him to go, “You know what? I should probably just not talk about this right now.” Because that stuff that Eric was doing was really taboo in that era. ALEX: Adult-oriented stuff. MARK: Yeah. ALEX: The Eric Stanton reprints are awesome to look at.
Eric Stanton Ditko’s studio-mate and confident, pictured here with Steve.
would go out, but she said no. So I’m sure that whole ritualistic kind of connecting up or trying to connect up happened. But I think about my younger brother, Patrick, he’s not married, he’s dated and he’s gone through his “I’m not interested, I’m interested,” so he’s not married. And he says he probably won’t get married. So it was almost like my brother Patrick would probably have a better assessment of why you wouldn’t do that.
MARK: Yeah. So they obviously connected at an artistic level and also at a sort of a human relationship level. So yeah. Hey, they stayed together for ten years. Clearly there was something magnetic there, that kept them together. But going back to what we talked about, is I think that potentially could have colored his opinion of getting married, and then my uncle, from what I heard, wasn’t so happy when Eric ended up getting married a second time. ALEX: Right. I heard that was the cause of their split actually.
But I think at some point, some people don’t get married. I have friends that don’t have kids. It was like, “Wow, okay. Is that unusual?” Oh, maybe. But that’s just the choice. So I think at some point he decided, “Hey, look, I’m committing to my craft, and this is where I’m dedicating my energy.” He probably did. I would suspect, just as a normal guy, he had tried to develop that, it’s just the right pieces weren’t there. Although I’ll throw in another just sort of wild tangent here: It could be that he saw relationships not go so well. And maybe that sort of colored things, like with Eric Stanton, that whole thing. ALEX: I was going to ask you about him. MARK: I have my own assessment that I think his relationship with Eric Stanton—he saw [Eric’s] first wife just not go so well and really hated what he did. But my uncle obviously clearly saw the talent that Eric had and they just connected. So it could be that he was maybe colored by that. ALEX: That’s interesting. What’s your impression of him and Eric Stanton? They shared a studio together for like ten years, I think. Eric would have all these pretty girls in garter belts come on over and hang out and stuff. Were they kind of like two buddies connecting at the right age and with similar skillsets? What’s your impression of them being buddies like that? MARK: Oh, that’s exactly what it is. It’s two people with such a common reality of art and an admiration for each other. They were both sort of second-generation-ish Americans. Eric was from the Eastern Europe bloc, just like we were, the Ditkos. They connected, they were able to talk, they played off of each other, they probably taught each other things, they probably helped each other on stuff, clearly. ALEX: They were wingman together too, probably. MARK: Absolutely. ALEX: Two wild and crazy guys.
You Wouldn’t Like Him When He’s At Charlton... In Ghostly Haunts #37 (January 1974), ol’ Steve sneaks in one more look at his rendition of a certain green-skinned goliath. It’s doubtful anyone at Marvel was paying much attention to Charlton’s mystery output at the time. Script by Joe Gill. [TM & © respective owner.]
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Aunt May [thing]. I think Eric Stanton had an Aunt May that used to watch him. So I think he took a lot of influence from Eric Stanton when he was building Peter Parker. ALEX: I remember on that panel you did with Jackie and Matt Dunford, someone had asked, “Hey, did he ever speak about working with Stan and what that was like, or his impression of Stan?” And you had said that he never really talked about that. Is that something that you asked, or it just never came up? MARK: Obviously, I’ve just dove headfirst into his life a little bit more, so to speak, beyond what I knew from our letters and my family connection. I wish I could go back in time through the ’90s and 2000s and ask him all these burning questions that are on other people’s minds, or that I hadn’t ever considered before, because no, I never asked him about Stan because I didn’t think about it. And that was really it. So some of that stuff never came up, not because I asked him, but he avoided the question. No, I asked him about Spider-Man or Dr. Strange and anything that came to mind as a personal interest that I was wondering about. I asked him and he answered. So it was just that I didn’t think about this stuff. ALEX: Yeah. I know. And also it’s like, he’s your uncle. There’s a routine of just being uncle and nephew also, as well, and sometimes we don’t get out of that. MARK: It wasn’t even that it was like, “Oh, this is taboo, I have to stay away from this.” Look, I did a lot of stupid sh*t with him. I said a lot of stupid stuff. Perfect example, I knew that he didn’t really like signing stuff. So what do I do when he sends me a box of comics? He sends me Spider-Man #5–38. What do I do? Send them back and say, “Could you sign these for me?” That was really stupid and arrogant, but I did it. So I can’t claim to have been the smartest nephew in some of those instances. So it wasn’t like I was holding back. Luckily he probably, maybe cut me a little more slack than usual because I’m the nephew. But yeah, he said on those things that I’m lucky he didn’t just throw them in the trash.
Let Freedom Ring (Around Your Neck) The lure of working at Charlton certainly wasn’t the great pay—instead, Ditko stayed in their employ because he could produce the kinds of stories he loved, with little editorial interference. This resulted in some remarkable imagery, such as this full-pager from Ghost Manor #3’s “The Waiting Noose” (February 1972). [TM & © respective owner.]
MARK: I didn’t know that or didn’t hear it, but I think it was probably in that Eric Stanton book, that maybe that kind of came out. I don’t know where that really was, but clearly there was something that held them together for that many years, there was a common thread. So again, going back to his decision to maybe not get married and keep his head down to the grindstone and do what he loved, it could be that Eric had some influence in there. Something that threw that two cents in there. ALEX: Yeah, makes sense. I think we spoke on the phone once, you had mentioned that his relationship with Eric Stanton influenced the construction of Peter Parker/Spider-Man. What was your spin on that? Do you remember? MARK: Oh yeah, right. Because you know, that’s where everybody says, “Steve Ditko is Peter Parker.” ALEX: And then they say, “Eric Stanton is The Human Torch,” but maybe that’s not correct, huh? MARK: My spin is that I think he took a lot from Eric’s life, because Eric was very similar to my uncle, but he took some of Eric’s life, and that was illustrating Peter Parker. Like the whole
ALEX: Did he sign them? MARK: No, but he sent them back. At least he sent them back. But then after that, he did a comic of his own, The Safest Place, and he sent me a whole bunch of signed copies. ALEX: That was what he was proud of at that time. MARK: Yeah. But then I did go back and see him, I can’t remember when, and I took some Spider-Man comics I had, and a couple others that I took back, and Creeper—I had just a collection of comics later when I went back to Johnstown one time.He signed them for me. ALEX: So he did sign sometimes. MARK: Oh yeah. Yeah. ALEX: What’s your impression of his attitude toward Jack Kirby
Dark Horse Candidate Again, preferring smaller independent publishers over the Big Two, Ditko went with Dark Horse Comics for this 1993 one-shot. [TM & © Estate of Steve Ditko]
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as a creator? They weren’t really close friends, right? But they worked at the same place around the same time. Was that the full extent of it? Were they mainly acquaintances with respect for each other? What’s your impression of that? MARK: Yeah, I think that’s all that it was. They weren’t buddies, they didn’t hang around. They were just acquaintances. They clearly knew of each other and they were just two ships passing in the night on certain comics, because they didn’t necessarily collaborate all that much. He inked Jack’s work on the covers and stuff like that, but I never really talked to him about that. I wrote to him when I had met Jack and Jack and I had talked. I can’t really recall what the response was on that, but it wasn’t that they were buddies connected at the hip. It wasn’t like that. ALEX: As far as some of his post-Marvel characters, you can see some elements of objectivism within Blue Beetle and most certainly The Question and Mr. A. Just from your impression of it, is that probably the direction he was going to take Spider-Man, or do you think he looked at those characters as, “These are different concepts and I’m going to do this with them”? MARK: This is really covered in Zack’s book, Mysterious Traveler, that I think there was an evolution going on with the way he created characters. So I think, to me, Spider-Man would have evolved in that direction to where early on—in fact my spin on [how] he created this flawed Peter Parker character. He didn’t build these flaws into him and expect them, in my opinion, to be maintained. The reality is all of a sudden you have super-powers and you’re going, “Whoa! What the...?” And then you’re trying to get
your head wrapped around that until you figure out where you’re at, and it’s a microcosmic life that you’re learning. Like, how do I function now with this? And then eventually you start to sort it out. You start to have more experiences and you start to just get more of a focus, and little by little you evolve. So I think Spider-Man would have gone that way.
The Man, The Myth No other character is more closely associated with Ditko than Mr. A—but while the strip focused on absolutes of right and wrong, Ditko was much more philosophically nuanced than fandom’s legends about him would lead us to believe. [TM & © Estate of Steve Ditko]
ALEX: It was because he was a 15-year-old that he had those flaws in that... MARK: You would expect it. ALEX: That you would expect it. And then when he lifted that large weight in that later issue, overcoming a lot of his mental anxieties, that was a metaphor of a growth moment where he was going to achieve a more final, more adult worldview of what he would think would be more appropriate. And that’s why I think a lot of people feel that when he left, it wasn’t really the Spider-Man that was intended, at least from his perspective anymore, that it became more of an anxious mascot for Marvel Comics. MARK: Yeah. I mean, look, he was a storyteller, and he mapped and plotted those things out. He knew where he wanted to go with that, because it’s almost like Harry Potter. How many volumes is that? Do you think she just kind of made it up as she went, the author? I think there was a master plan.
Mark Ditko Interview
ALEX: Yeah. There was probably an A to Z on this. MARK: Exactly. So I think he saw where it was going to evolve, he just jumped ship before he could complete that evolution. So he goes, and now he’s doing Blue Beetle, and it is sort of an extension of that. I mean, the artwork of Blue Beetle, to me, is just mind-blowing. It’s very SpiderMan-ish kind of, but that’s what he’s known for, that action, integrating that action into static panels. So I think it was all an evolution, and Spider-Man, Peter Parker, would have eventually kind of gotten there. And that’s why I think later on he was like, “Okay, you know what? I’m done with that. I could actually set that aside, because it’s not going where I would have taken it. So I’m not going to sit here and whine about it. I’m going to move on to my next character and I’m going to do what I’m going to do.” ALEX: A lot of people don’t put these two characters together. Knowing what you know of your uncle and your discussions and just studying the guy as well, the concept of The Chameleon who is faceless, and then The Question and Mr. A—at Charlton, he did a Chameleon-type character before the Marvel one, and then even later, he did a character that was kind of similar. What do you think it is about the faceless character that seemed to appeal to his artistic sensibilities? MARK: I’ve never thought about that. And that’s something where I think I’m deficient; in my knowledge of his characters and their personalities and all that stuff. I know the main characters, but I am by no means a comic historian. I watch your show
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and you talk about stuff, and I’m just like, “Whoa, that is over my head.” I mean, I had no idea of any of that stuff. So I don’t know. My thoughts on it now are that it was just a way to make that imagery stand out. ALEX: Like a vehicle. More like a storytelling vehicle, maybe. MARK: Exactly. Yeah. ALEX: Some people will say that The Question is him, just like some people want to say Peter Parker is him. But is The Question more him, or is that another construct that he analyzed and put together, do you think? MARK: I don’t think any of those things are him. He wrote to me at one point and he said that he thinks comics should have evolved to be more of an educational medium. So I think all he was doing is telling a story. And he’s trying to get a moral across. ALEX: Yeah, teach a lesson of some kind. MARK: Exactly. And, to me, a lot of that Next Steps stuff he’s doing, he’s If the Blue Beetle is the logical evolution just trying to do it in from Spider-Man, is The Question a what he sees as an direct descendant of Spidey villain The entertaining way of Chameleon? [Blue Beetle, Question TM trying to get some life, & © DC Comics; Spider-Man, Fantastic whether it’s ethics or Four, Chameleon TM & © Marvel morality or integrity, Characters, Inc.] some point across, and getting them to try to look at something in a medium that maybe they wouldn’t otherwise have seen. So I don’t think he was trying to tell his life story or create an image of himself. And even with Mr. A—the black and white. He says everything is black and white. People go, “Oh, that’s harsh. It’s ridiculous. You can’t have that attitude.” Well, you know what? Maybe it can’t be applied across the board, but in some instances, he’s getting you to process life through maybe a different lens. I’ll just make a strange analogy. My dad has this saying sometimes, which I don’t really agree with, but he says it: “All things in moderation.” And I get what he’s saying. And in a certain frame, that actually makes sense. Don’t overdo. Don’t eat four gallons of ice cream every single night. That’s not going to be a good thing. So all things in moderation. And so my uncle had this sort of, okay, black and white. But that doesn’t mean everywhere, because for example, I could tell my dad I only did a little bit of heroin tonight. Look, I’m moderating it. I only do so much a week. It’s like, no. To me, that is a black and white. No, don’t do that. So my uncle, in this sort of black and white mentality, could say, “Look. Do you think it’s okay to just steal, oh, I don’t know, maybe just pads of paper? Because look, it’s not like you’re stealing bills. You’re not taking a computer or something. You’re just taking some paper.
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What’s the harm in that?” ALEX: Or take a pen from the bank home with you. MARK: Yeah, why not? I mean, come on. You don’t mean black and white. It’s like, no, actually. No. Stealing = bad. Let’s stay on the white side of that. There are areas of life where there’s no gray. And to me, I love Mr. A, but I read him differently than anybody else would read him. To me, it’s just all those things that people believe that there’s an acceptability in a gray, when in reality, you actually even know that there is no gray in that area. And you should be on the white side and live in that sort of straight-and-narrow. “Hey, I only cheated once in my marriage. I mean, it’s only once. Come on. Cut me some slack.” No. There’s a black and white there and I think it does apply. ALEX: That’s true. That’s a good point. Now, did he ever talk about Wally Wood? Did that ever come up? Were they friends? Do you know about that? MARK: I can’t recall any specifics and I don’t have any kind of notes that I could refer to right now about Wally Wood, but my recollection of that is they were buds. It was almost an Eric Stanton kind of relationship in terms of, he really admired Wally Wood. It’s unfortunate that Wally Wood had problems drinking and
Wally Wood.
where his life went, but I think there was an absolute connection with him and Wally Wood. He really admired his skillset. There was definitely a connection that he had with Wally Wood, in my opinion. ALEX: Yeah, because it sounds like there’s more of a connection between Ditko and Wood than Ditko and Kirby, actually. MARK: Oh, no doubt. No doubt. I mean, just look at Witzend. ALEX: Yeah. That’s right. That would take a connection there. Yes. MARK: And Wally Wood even said, he’s like, “Look, no. I’m putting this in just the way you want it. This is you.” In fact, I thought there was some little tension there when all of a sudden, Wally Wood kind of backed away a little bit and someone else didn’t want to put in just what my uncle had created. So he had that relationship with Wally Wood, and I think Wally Wood had a mutual respect back that was just like, “Look, this is a platform. I’m letting him take it.” ALEX: I know that when Wally left and was doing the Tower comics, Ditko was doing work with that. They did some Jungle Jim together. They did quite a bit of things that were not considered necessarily mainstream, but they had that connection. And that’s cool to hear that confirmed on your end too, that there was a good emotion there between the two. Now, you had mentioned earlier that you had asked him about The Creeper and there are other characters for DC Comics, when he went to DC, like Hawk and Dove. What did he tell you about those characters, or what has come up? MARK: I have a couple snippets that I pulled out of my letters, but when I was asking him about those things—I mean, I could just read some of this. He said—and this was in November of 2005, that he wrote me this. He said, “Yeah, The Creeper.” He said, “Yes, The Creeper’s colors were mine. His costume was a put together affair to get into the costume party. So it was a thrown together disguise, which made it different in not being a chosen costume for a hero’s career, like the Batman or Superman. Offbeat ideas like with the Creeper costume can lead or have led to other offbeat ideas. One just has to be mentally open, not censoring, considering what does pop up, and some never originally thought ideas will emerge. It was like that with Dr. Strange.”
You And Me Against The World (Of Marvel) At Tower Comics, the ex-Marvel creators Ditko and Wood joined forces on T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents for several stories, in hopes of putting a chink in their former employer’s armor. But the line was relatively short-lived, although fondly remembered by fans today. From Dynamo #1 (Aug. 1966). [TM & © Stonegate Entertainment, Inc..]
And then he talks about Shade. And he said, “Shade. Oh, yes. I had a number of Shade episodes ready to pencil. I remember going to Johnstown for a summer vacation” (this is where we talked about it). “On the seven- or eight-hour trip, I worked on continuing Shade stories and books. Ideas and stories rolled along the tracks. I can’t claim that at every train stop I had a completed story for a book, but with Shade, I did the color overlays on tracing paper for the panels and pages. But the problem was the coloring department was unwilling to follow my color schemes. In one book, I got the reverse of what I wanted. So one is always dealing with others who
Mark Ditko Interview
The ShadeChanging Man? DC’s coloring department was the least of Steve problems on his Shade series, which debuted in 1977. Sadly, it was a victim of the infamous “DC Implosion,” and was axed after just eight issues. At left is Steve’s entry for DC’s Who’s Who #20 (Oct. 1986). [TM & © DC Comics]
believe that they know best. Another example is the ‘democratic collaboration.’” So he makes a little political comment there. ALEX: That he didn’t like that, basically. MARK: No. No. And then he was talking about the names of his characters and he says, “Yeah, character naming. Yes, all of those characters’ names were mine.” And I can’t remember what I asked him. He said, “But some editors didn’t like the names. One editor said an odd name can have one unusual one, but also a very ordinary, common other one, like Indiana Jones.” You have one common name and one unusual one. “It’s a matter of thinking up names to fit the character. Some names can have a meaning; like Rex Graine, for Mr. A, is against the grain of the usual moral thinking.” That’s where Rex Graine comes from. “Then Vic Sage,” he said. “The question is victory through wisdom,” is where Vic Sage comes from. Yeah. He says, “If art is to be creative, every aspect of doing a comicbook story should involve creativity. I go for short names because of space for dialogue balloons and captions. I had The Creeper as Jay Ryder in my rough script. The comic writer assigned made Jay into Jack with the common conventional thinking.” ALEX: That is great. That’s awesome. What a great insight that was. MARK: Yeah. So he didn’t fight or resist when I would ask him these things. And I don’t know, maybe because I was a nephew, but I don’t think so. Even David Currie, when he wrote Ditko Shrugged, they had corresponded for 10 years. He asked him industry questions all the time. So it wasn’t like he wasn’t willing to answer that. In all of the letters, especially when you see these really abrupt ones or curt ones, it was probably because they were just pushing a button, that, “Hey, draw me Spider-Man.” You get a letter: “Draw me Spider-Man.” It’s like, “Oh my gosh, you’re the 8000th person to ask me that, okay? No! –Steve Ditko.” But that’s why I go back, because I wish I could have asked him some of the questions that sort of are burning on people’s minds, or that I think about now. ALEX: Yeah. But it’s great that you’re the resource that you are already, anyway. So it seemed like during the ’70s, it was almost a fanzine period,
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where he was submitting a lot of stuff more in the fanzine world, rather than mainstream comics. It seemed to explore more of his ideas and concepts. One of the things I wonder is, how do you afford a studio in New York on that? Are you aware of him doing other things too, to make a living beyond it? Was that it? MARK: I think once he committed to what he was doing, that’s what he did. And I don’t know that he did anything else. And the only time that I know that he was doing something else was when he was going to art school. That he did have some sort of day job or some way to sustain and have some kind of money, which I don’t know what he did, and I’ve never had a conversation with anybody who knew. But once he started in the business, he was all in. He committed. In fact, I think that really is what developed his attitude of, “Look, I don’t do these little one-off things. I need a long-time job. You got to give me a commitment. I’m not going to just draw you a picture and you’re going to give me a hundred bucks. That doesn’t pay the bills. I need commitment. I need regular work.” So that’s what he was always after. ALEX: I also like how he wrote in that letter, he implied more about thinking beyond the grain with Dr. Strange, because that was revolutionary, his Dr. Strange. I mean, Spider-Man was, too, but Dr. Strange—when I read his series of that, it opened my mind. From comics before that to after, and exploring metaphysics and dimensions, he was so innovative with that. So, that’s cool that he threw that in to that letter to you there. MARK: Yeah.
A strange pin-up. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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ALEX: When I interviewed Jim Shooter, I asked him about what was up with Steve Ditko’s return to Marvel around ’78 or ’79 or so. And he was saying that Steve Ditko played a little hard to get in the beginning, but he told him that “You’re a Founding Father, we’ll always have something for you,” and that when he took him up on the offer, that he would tell people, “Hey, this is Steve Ditko.” He would tell his secretary, “Look, we have to give him ultimate respect, make him feel as comfortable here as possible.” And he always had something for him. And then it seemed like he also continued to work for Shooter over at Valiant Comics, even at Defiant afterward. What was your impression of their working relationship, because it seemed to go beyond Marvel there?
Mark Ditko Interview
agree with that whole thing with your uncle, working with him those years, it seemed like there was a mutual respect and loyalty there between the two, and maybe they spoke the same language to an extent. I think you’re right. Shooter did say something like, well, if that didn’t promote the ideal of a hero, [Ditko] didn’t generally want to be a part of it. And did he ever talk about anything else about Valiant or Defiant, or his later time at Marvel, beyond that Defiant anecdote you had mentioned? MARK: Again, I’ve got to go through my letters, because that was the era that I actually started reading comics. I got into comics probably in the early ’90s. So I attended the early ’90s comic conventions and started to buy comics, and I had my own reading list. And the stuff from Triumphant, Prime, stuff from Adam Pollina that he worked on—I can’t think of some of the names, but Chromium Man and Defiant stuff, I was reading all of that. So I’m sure I probably wrote to him something about the Defiant era, but I don’t have anything right now. I mean, that was a lot of years ago.
MARK: I met Jim down in San Diego at a comic convention and we kind of chatted a little bit. But yeah, my sense was that’s just the reality of a relationship. Just take even correspondence. Somebody writes you a letter, you don’t know who this person is, but they’re engaging. They go, “What are you working on now? What’s your next project?” A Straight Shooter ALEX: And then you had Okay. So he responds. And (Above:) Steve’s work from 1993’s Dark Domain, written by Jim Shooter. mentioned that, after death, he felt then you write back and as the [TM & © Defiant] like that was it. There was no real relationship evolves, you’re (Below:) While Shooter was editor-in-chief at Marvel Comics in the 1980s, afterlife. You got to use your time probably more willing to maybe he kept “Founding Father” Ditko busy on a variety of stories, such as the here now. Did he ever discuss how say something or do something “Captain Universe” strip in November 1980’s Marvel Spotlight #9. he felt about the death of, let’s say, that you might not have done [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.] Wally Wood, or the death of Jack at first contact. So I think that Kirby, or any of these people? Jim, he knows the industry. He knew who was who. He had the MARK: No. No, I don’t ever proper respect for the people who did remember having any conversation what they did early on. And I think about that at all. it only took a matter of time before my uncle saw that this guy’s legit. So ALEX: What was his view of the Internet yeah, “I’m going to pursue him.” Just in general? Did he ever mention anything again, as long as the project aligned like that? Because I know he wrote letters, with his own values, right? Because but he wasn’t really an e-mail kind of guy, that’s why he left Defiant, although I I guess. loved him on Dark Dominion. I wanted MARK: No. There were others that to see him continue that one, but he he was writing letters with pretty backed off because it just didn’t click regularly who would send him with his philosophy at the time, which clippings and send him things that is why he ended up leaving that. He they would print out. He was really did the first bit there, because he had a dialed into what was going on and commitment with Jim Shooter. I think all the happenings. He had a TV. But it was just that Jim is a great guy. I no, he’s not surfing the web. I mean, don’t care what anybody else says. I he’d go to the library and had access like Jim Shooter. I think he did right to whatever happened to be there. But by my uncle. I think he did right by I think most of his connection was a lot of people in the industry. But I with correspondence with others, that think it was just the matter that he was they would print out things and send willing to develop a relationship with him things. So they kept him really my uncle, which, again, it just aligned updated on what was going on. with what my uncle wanted and was interested in. ALEX: So it was more just kind of being set in your ways and the way you ALEX: I like Jim Shooter too. And I communicate, and that’s what you’re
Mark Ditko Interview
comfortable with. It wasn’t necessarily being against the internet as a concept or anything like that. MARK: No. No. I think it was just he was old school in that way. And you kind of think about his time—you know what? I’d put money down that he woke up at the crack of dawn. He got dressed. He did his normal morning routine. He walked over to his studio. He went in his studio and he worked. And in the early days, I know he would work till the late night hours trying to just meet deadlines. But even in his later years, I’ll bet you he walked in his studio and his normal hours, and he worked all day, and at the end of the day, he shut things down, and he went home, and he worked on his correspondence and he worked on research or something. And I bet you he had his routines and he probably just did that, day, after day, after day, ALEX: The Blake Bell book about his life—for a while, that was the only thing on Ditko’s biography that was around. The timeline seemed to be intact throughout it. But at some point there seemed to be some judgment by the author on Ditko and some of the decisions he made. What’s your impression of the way Steve Ditko felt about that book or books that tried to do that?
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point where he was like, “No, I didn’t sign up for that. I am not on board with that.” So I think he would have been more amenable to something like what David Currie was doing, where he was right from the horse’s mouth. He’s just corresponding with him. But when it gets to the point where there’s somebody who says, “Oh, I’m an expert,”—that’s why I try read a lot of stuff that he wrote me and try to refer back to that, because I’m not him. I only know what I know. But he didn’t like the idea that others would try to kind of live off of some authority label when he didn’t give it to anybody. So I think that really set him off. He didn’t like that. In fact, I believe that his distaste for other people sort of intruding into his life via the family or friends really caused him to just go, “Okay, look. I’m going to protect my family.” And he would tell people, “I have no family. There is nobody. And I’m going to keep my mouth shut. I’m not going to make it so that people are going to go hunt other people down.” We went to his studio to clean it out, and the security guard, the guy at the front desk sees my dad come up and Dad says, “Yeah, we need to get into Steve Ditko’s studio. I’m his brother.” And the guy looks at him and says, “You’re not his brother. He didn’t have any family. He told me that multiple times.” And probably at the front desk, he’s telling the guy, “Look, don’t let anybody in here. I have no family. I don’t care what they tell you.” So I think he was really trying to protect the family and saying, “Look, I don’t have any family. Don’t go hunting. There’s nothing to see there.” He did have that kind of sensitivity to the privacy, but only in a sense that people were trying to speak for him. Early on, after he had passed away and I went off to Johnstown, my dad said, “Hey, we should do a book, Steve Ditko: The Man. We should tell our story of what we know how he was.” Now, I don’t think he would necessarily have a philosophical problem with that because we’re just saying what we know. We’re not speculating. I’m saying, “Look, he drew me gorillas as a kid.” So I’m not making something up. This is a reality, and we could speak to that reality of what we knew and what we had. He did this, he said this, he showed me this. He drew me this, he was this way. I try not to speculate in that way. And I don’t think he would have had a problem with that.
But He Took The Time To Draw A Sketch... Steve’s response to a 1960s fan letter. Given the choice, would you rather have the drawing, or answers to your questions?
MARK: Well, in fact, there’s a quote that I kind of dug up that he had mentioned, because there’s always this thing about privacy. He was a private person. He didn’t want this to come out, [or] wanted that to come out. So in 2007, he wrote to me and he said, “Every person should value his privacy and it is important to know and understand what is meant by privacy. Claims about most things regarding me have come not from me, but from others who believe they are qualified to speak for me or about me. Their speaking about me is supposed to prove that they know what they are talking about.” So one of the things I think maybe with Blake, because everybody knows the phrase that he says, that’s a “poison sandwich,” that book. So I think on that one, something in there just turned his stomach a bit. “He is claiming to be a Ditko aficionado and able to speak for me, when I didn’t authorize him as my personal biographer.” So I think there was something. It’s almost like that Cat Yronwode book that she was doing all that research for, and when it got to the point where it was really invading other people’s privacy to a degree—calling my dad and all this stuff—it got to the
Now, if he was alive—and we didn’t do any of that stuff, obviously, while he was alive, because he didn’t want that. He didn’t want to have that extra awareness put on him. We just think it’s honoring him right now, that other people need to understand that. I was talking to Kevin Feige after the Spider-Man premiere down in Hollywood a couple of years ago. And we were just chatting, because I said, “We’re going to be doing some things, getting more people aware of who he was.” And he said, “You have to do that, because if you don’t, ten years from now, his life and who he was will only be a caricature of who he really was.” And it’s true. And I don’t want that. I want people to actually know who he really was: Not some caricature cartoon, exploded, blown up speculative kind of picture of who he was as a crazy recluse, which is just absurd. ALEX: Yeah, I agree. And in fact, when that Bleeding Cool article came about and people were sharing it, acting like it’s a note of justice... MARK: Travesty. Yeah. ALEX: Which I thought was the silliest thing. And I actually made a very straightforward comment about how much I disagreed with it from the bottom of my soul. Because what they claimed is that the Ditko estate is printing Ditko’s “Mr. A,” reprinting it against his wishes, trying to put some negative spin on ultimately just trying to correct the record on who he was, and make sure he’s not forgotten, and making sure that fandom
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Mark Ditko Interview
doesn’t just distort him into some caricature of a trench coat and a hat and a Spider-Man mask, and that’s all it is. I think you guys are doing really great work, and I’m with you 1000%. MARK: In 1991, I wrote to him about some of his characters, and regarding Mr. A, he said, “He is one character from the past that I would like to see in the present and the future.” So that was something that he wanted that character... that really was a manifestation, a representation of a strong belief that he had. That’s why we’re doing that collected edition. That’s why I am promoting Mr. A, and I just think it needs to get on the right channels to send the message that there are some philosophical decisions that really are black and white, and you need to consider that. So yeah, I am promoting it. He wanted to see him in the future. ALEX: You mentioned you guys were cleaning out his studio, the library. So was that basically when you were notified about his death, when you and your dad went there and cleaned everything out? How was that? MARK: I flew out to Johnstown about a week after he passed away. My younger brother, Patrick, and my dad had plans to just go into New York, and I was like, “Look, I’m going. I’m definitely there to help.” So I flew out. I was out there for a while, a couple of weeks, probably, in Johnstown. And we’re trying to figure out, okay, get the logistics of, “How do we get in there?” And we had heard that he had died in his apartment, that that was sealed by the police. And then they had also sealed his studio. Nobody can get into any of that stuff. And we didn’t have any kind of will. There was nothing legal that said that we could get into any of those places. So we started doing some research, and my dad on the phone, call after phone call, eventually found out that we can’t get in there. Nobody’s going to allow us to get in there. Nobody’s getting in there until we have some kind of a legal paper that has whatever, death certificate and authorization from the state that you could actually get in there. It took us probably a month or more to get that. So I ended up leaving, coming back to Los Angeles, and then going back out. I think it might’ve been in August or something, the following month, that we ended up. Then I rented a van, and we all drove out to New York eventually, started to just get into his studio and apartment and clean things out. But my dad made a comment. Putting it in perspective, there’s my dad and me and my younger brother, Patrick. And just talk about a bonding experience between a father and two sons, that he said it was probably one of the funnest, if you could put it that way, experiences that he has ever had, because we spent almost a week in New York, just going back and forth from his studio to the apartment and going through everything and cleaning all this stuff out, packing up the van and eventually driving back. It was surreal in many ways, what we kind of had to do in his apartment, and then also in the studio. He had a big studio. There was a lot of stuff in there. ALEX: Was there anything surprising that you saw in there? MARK: For us, my dad and me and my brother going in there, it was like opening up some crypt, a vault that you’ve never been in, and you have no idea what’s in it that’s been buried in an Egyptian tomb, for thousands of years. That’s kind of the level of excitement. We finally, after about a half-an-hour of convincing the security guard and getting the building manager to come down to eventually escort us up there, we turn the key in the Steve Ditko door, 715, and you can’t open the door. You’re pushing and pushing the door, and it’s just packed with mail behind it, letters and stuff. We finally pushed it open. And they walk away, and we just sort of walk in to this first room and just piles of filing cabinet stuff, and then walk into the main room. And it was like, “Wow.” And it was so funny, because all of us, we kind of first [were] trying to
Squirrel Girl Created by writer Will Murray and Ditko, she first appeared in Marvel Super-Heroes vol. 2 #8, a.k.a. Marvel Super-Heroes Winter Special (1991). [Squirrel Girl, Iron Man TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
take it all in. And then my dad goes right to his desk and where he would sit and draw. And my dad sits down there and it was like one thing after another, he would be sitting down, and he’d go, “Look at this.” It is like, oh my gosh, he didn’t even just—one thing after another, one of us just finding something, and then eventually getting our heads wrapped around what our task really is, of how to clean this place out. But yeah, it was a real adventure that I’ll never forget. ALEX: That sounds like fun. MARK: As far as finding something that was unexpected, everything was kind of unexpected in a way. I don’t know that my dad was even in that studio [before]. My dad and my mom hooked up with him a couple of times in New York, but I don’t know if they were in his studio. I had never been; my younger brother never did. So it was all just like, “Wow.” Everything we looked at was a diamond, you know? ALEX: How fun. That sounds like it was less disappointing than Al Capone’s vault with Geraldo, right? This one should have been televised. MARK: Yeah. Right. Exactly.
Mark Ditko Interview
As Idiosyncratic As Ditko Himself Robin Snyder’s publications weren’t as widely distributed as some, but they were a perfect outlet for Steve to repackage old material like “Mr. A,” and produce new, extremely personal stories. [© Steve Ditko.]
ALEX: You’d mentioned this at the panel you were on with Matt Dunford. Did Steve Ditko ever get any money for the Spider-Man movies? MARK: Not that I’m aware of. ALEX: I’m not sure what they did legally, but with the Kirby estate, it took a lot eventually for them to say “Created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby,” but in the movies, it’s pretty established early on. It says, “Created by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko.” But it doesn’t seem like any of us are aware of what occurred to get that byline up there, right? MARK: Yeah. I don’t know. You don’t know. I think during that period, when those movies were coming out, then all of that was being done. I was writing back and forth with my uncle, but it wasn’t something that I had attention on or was asking those questions. That was all just something happening over there.
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MARK: You know what? I don’t know. Clearly, he knows who Steve Ditko is. He asked me, “What did you think about the tribute that I did at the end of the Spider-Man movie, where they have the signature of Steve Ditko & Stan Lee?” He was kind of proud of that. He said, “So, what’d you think of that tribute?” And I was like, “Eh.” And he said he really wanted to do something much more elaborate, but he didn’t want to keep showing the same old six pictures that are out there. He said he just didn’t have the material. So I think there was an intent to sort of do a much bigger, broader tribute. He just didn’t have the content—so I gave him my card. And I was like, “Hey, in the future, when you want to do something, I’ll get you all the content you need.” But to me, he was legitimately interested. And I’ll tell you, when we were talking out there in front of Grauman’s Chinese Theater, he was engaged, he was interested. He was happy to have met me enough to have this conversation, when I muscled my way in past those handlers. ALEX: Steve had a long publishing history with Robin Snyder, with The Comics, and why he left Marvel, and his history. What was your impression of their working relationship? Was it kind of similar, do you think, to him working with Jim Shooter, in that, “Okay, this guy’s fair to me. I’m going to work with him. He understands what I’ll work on and what I won’t”? Was it more like that was a vehicle to continue working on his own terms?
I’m pretty sure he does get some sort of a royalty type check on some of the reprints of things, but I don’t really know what those numbers are. And I think that’s as far as it goes, as far as the relationship. I remember early on, I was talking with Marvel, trying to get—I was kind of handling the legal side of the estate, and I was talking with Marvel to try to get their existing contract. And they said they didn’t have anything. There was nothing that I could find or get from Marvel, that there was an actual contract between them two.
MARK: Oh, I think it absolutely was. And of course, just the longevity of it, every year that would go by, every project they would do, solidified that relationship. So I think as the years went by, that true bond just grew and grew and grew, because here’s somebody sticking by your side and putting your material out the way you want that material to go out. So I think that just continued to solidify over the years. So I think it probably started out as a business relationship, because he had approached others prior to Robin, to have that relationship: Ron Frantz. So he asked him, would he be his publisher? And Ron was like, “The material, I just don’t see I can get the material out and then make it viable as a business.” But Robin had maybe some other things going on, and enough diversity with other activity Robin’s doing. So he took on my uncle’s publishing and then they sign a contract in ’99, where there was an agreement that he’s leasing the material to Robin Snyder to be able to publish, and just to split the profits basically, while he was alive. So I think that bond just kind of grew and grew, and then what that really allowed my uncle to do, and going back to his division of labor, it allowed my uncle to just keep his nose to the grindstone and do the artwork, and he didn’t have to worry about getting it out there. I know Darren Ford even approached him.
ALEX: And then you mentioned speaking with Kevin Feige of Marvel Studios. Did he indicate that he was a fan of the comics himself? Is that your impression of him as far as where he comes from when he’s making those movies?
And others I’ve talked to have approached my uncle about publishing his work and about the quality and different comments. And he would always redirect them and say, “Look, that’s not my area. Go talk to Robin. Robin is the
ALEX: And so now, is there currently any legal relationship of any kind between Marvel’s corporation and the Ditko estate, as far as royalties or any of those things? MARK: My dad handles the financial side of things, and has. So I do think that he gets a check from Marvel on royalties or commission on the comics. So I think he gets them from DC as well, but it’s five cents for a reprint here, or seven cents on this one. And it adds up to $1.25 or something.
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committed to doing this stuff. And I’m talking to people about doing more animated cartoons and trying to just get his name out there, connected to his creations. I think I would just say stay tuned, because we are going to continually do stuff. It’s like with this Bottle Works show. This is the first sort of launch point of trying to get his name out there broader, and what he has done. Then the Mr. A book, and then the Steve Ditko: The Man as a working title right now, that book out there, and then just getting people more access to who he was.
one that’s putting that stuff out there. So that question is for Robin, that’s not for me, I’m the artist, I’m the creative side.” I think as the years went by, that relationship became very attractive to him because he was able to just, like I said, keep his nose to the grindstone and just keep cranking out what he wanted, and didn’t have to worry about distribution and printing and all that stuff. ALEX: As far as what we’ve talked about your uncle; is there anything you feel is important about him that we may have missed today? I know it’s hard to capture someone in a bottle like that.
ALEX: You said that there were maybe six photos of him out there. Just out of curiosity, rough estimate, just from family gatherings, you guys probably have considerably more photos than that. Is that right?
MARK: Well, I think one of the things that we’re working on now is, when I first went off to Johnstown and my dad and me and my brother Patrick were sitting down, and my dad said, “Hey, we should do a book, Steve Ditko: The Man. And we should tell people who he was as a person,” just to kind of combat all those kinds of rumors that were out there, and innuendo, and all these other opinions. We have a draft version of that right now. I read it a couple of weeks ago. Bob Jeschonek from Johnstown is actually writing it. He’s an accomplished author. So he’s the one doing all the legwork and interviews and everything. So I think that is going to be an interesting book that will be coming out—just because of the whole kind of COVID lag, probably not done until 2022.
A Fuzzy Reception Static first appeared in Eclipse Monthly #1-3 in 1983. As shown in this 1985 ad, Charlton took over with Charlton Action Featuring Static #11-12 (reprinting the Eclipse issues with new material) before Renegade Press gave us the final new Static material in Ditko’s World Featuring... Static (1986). [© Steve Ditko.] (Below left:) Steve’s “Killjoy” first appeared in Charlton’s E-Man #2 (1973) as a back-up strip, but never quite made the big time. [© Steve Ditko.]
MARK: First time I went back to Johnstown, I went through our cabinet, just our personal one, the family one in Johnstown, and I found over 200 photos. Then my brother Patrick and my dad went to the relatives and to others. Then we started finding the movies, because everyone including my dad was filming 8mm videos. So we obviously have home movies that he’s in. And the photos, that kind of stuff. That’s going to be really interesting for some people to see this, the antics that he would do, all from a family perspective. I don’t know how much of that stuff will really make it in the first book, but eventually it will all just leak out, over time.
So I think that is one thing that (Bottom right:) Mark Ditko, Steve’s younger brother will give more insight into what we as a ALEX: I appreciate you sharing that one Patrick S. Ditko (center), and (right) Mark’s brother, family want to get out regarding Steve home video with the CBH channel. That Patrick J. Ditko, all carrying on the Ditko legacy. Ditko. So we would want to try to get was really nice of you. And I asked you people to understand who he was as a if you would share it with me, and you person. Beyond that, I just want to get his name out there more. were kind enough to say yes. I think it’s a little annoying when people I think his artwork, do that without asking permission. But I’ve always appreciated your his distribution has kindness to me and our developing relationship over the past couple been—I don’t want of years, and in the upcoming years. So, Mark, thanks so much for to say intentionally joining us today here at Comic Book Historians. throttled back, but it MARK: It was my pleasure, and I’m sure this is hasn’t been as broad just the start. as I think it should be for the caliber of artist that he was. So that’s why we’re doing the “Mr. A” stuff. I’m going to start doing more merchandise, and only just for visibility. Look, I’ll just say it: this is a money pit. I’m not in this for the money, but I’m
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One Life, Furnished In Early DITKO
An Imaginary Story Featuring Charlton Comics, Ibis The Invincible, Doctor Strange, & The Great Connecticut Flood Of 1955 by Brian Cremins for Harlan
T
hese are the facts as I know and understand them: The late Steve Ditko, legendary co-creator of Spider-Man and Doctor Strange, never worked for Fawcett Publications.
He was a few months too late. By the time he began drawing covers and stories for This Magazine Is Haunted, a title introduced by the Fawcett comics line in 1951, Charlton Comics from Derby, Connecticut, had taken over the title. In 1954, Ditko drew five covers for the series, along with four stories. Then, by early 1955, This Magazine Is Haunted ceased publication. Sort of. It carried on as a comic called Danger and Adventure, which, as the Grand Comics Database points out, picked up where This Magazine Is Haunted left off with issue #22. On the cover of that issue of the series is none other than Fawcett’s Ibis the Invincible. Unlike the members of the Marvel Family—which Fawcett, as part of its settlement with National, had promised never to publish (or allow to be published) again—Ibis
still had some life left in him, even if the story Charlton published had first appeared in Whiz Comics #45 a decade earlier. (And, just for the record, This Magazine Is Haunted returned to the Charlton lineup in 1957-58 for five more issues, though sporting a butchered numbering system that can confuse the unwary reader—and Ditko contributed heavily to the revised series’ covers and interior artwork.) Those are the facts. But we’re all friends and comicbook fans here. We love our What Ifs? and our Imaginary Stories (many of which Otto Binder himself wrote for DC’s Superman comics after Fawcett’s settlement with that company). When I began working on this article, P.C. Hamerlinck urged me to explore one of these alternate histories: What if Charlton had hired Steve Ditko to draw “Ibis the Invincible” for Danger and Adventure? What if Ditko had gotten a head start on ideas he later introduced with Stan Lee
Steve Ditko in his studio in the 1960s, flanked by his cover for This Magazine Is Haunted #21 (Nov. 1954), that comic’s final issue in its initial Charlton, pre-Comics Code incarnation—and the cover of Danger and Adventure #22 (Feb. ’55), which continued the TMIH numbering but cover-featured Ibis the Invincible, a sorcerer-hero, in an Alex Blum-penciled story reprinted from Fawcett’s Whiz Comics. Charlton had recently purchased many of Fawcett’s effects after the latter publisher left the comicbook business in 1953. Alas, this was far too early for Ditko get the opportunity to work his own particular brand of magic with the potent Ibistick! [Ibis the Invincible TM & © DC Comics; other cover TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
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ready” to publish. When Fawcett passed, Moldoff turned to publisher Bill Gaines at EC Comics. Eventually, the writer and artist found himself “back again [at] Fawcett, who finally,” he explained, “bought it after they saw the horror trend starting to grow” [59]. With a cover by Moldoff featuring the book’s eerie host Doctor Death, the first issue of This Magazine Is Haunted appeared with an October 1951 cover date. A year earlier, as Qiana Whitted points out in her groundbreaking new book on the “shock comics” of the early 1950s, Gaines and editor/writer Al Feldstein “experimented” with the genre “by placing their own original horror stories in two of EC’s crime comics,” which resulted in “a subsequent bump in sales” [Whitted 12–13]. The stories proved so successful, Whitted adds, that Gaines decided “to transform War against Crime and Crime Patrol into” what would become “The Vault of Horror and The Crypt of Terror (which later became Tales from the Crypt),” the company’s flagship horror titles [Whitted 13].
Sheldon Moldoff during the Golden Age of Comics—juxtaposed between covers for Fawcett’s Captain Midnight #37 (Feb. 1946) and the same company’s This Magazine Is Haunted #1 (Oct. 1951). He had brought the latter concept to Fawcett Publications. The first issue of Haunted was illustrated by Moldoff. Besides TMIH, the artist sold other horror titles to Fawcett. Even late in life, Moldoff claimed that EC publisher Bill Gaines lifted some of his horror-comics concepts after Moldoff had presented his ideas to him… and he had some paperwork (and published stories) to strengthen his claims. [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
at Marvel? What if his version of Ibis’ companion Princess Taia had looked just like Clea from Doctor Strange? Never happened, of course. Then again, we’re talking about magic and the supernatural here, right? We’ve got plenty of ghosts and tall tales in the Naugatuck River Valley, where Charlton was located. So why not daydream a little? But, before we try to answer these questions, let’s look at the history of This Magazine Is Haunted, first by turning to P.C. Hamerlinck’s interview with Sheldon Moldoff from FCA #178 [Alter Ego #119, pp. 57–60]. A few years after World War II, Shelly Moldoff had an idea for a new comicbook series. Back in New York, he tried to find work with DC, but found himself instead at Fawcett, where editor Will Lieberson offered him “plenty of ‘Captain Midnight’ stories, as well as a few for ‘Don Winslow of the Navy’” [qtd. in Hamerlinck 58]. Like other freelancers of the era, Moldoff shared with PCH his fond memories of Fawcett and its editors. The company, he recalled, “was less big business and more like one big happy family,” with great folks like “Ginny Provisiero, Roy Ald, Dick Kraus, Stanley Kauffman, Wendell Crowley,” all of whom were part of what Moldoff described as “a tight ship” with Lieberson as their tireless captain. Despite this strong working relationship with Fawcett and his friendship with Lieberson, however, Moldoff’s idea for a horror comic was something that the company’s editors “weren’t quite
For his part, Moldoff claimed in his FCA interview that Gaines’ company “ended up stealing some of my concepts after I had presented my ideas to them.” Nonetheless, as PCH notes in the FCA interview, Moldoff’s other horror titles for Fawcett, including Worlds of Fear and Strange Suspense Stories (1952–1953) “weren’t as gruesome as what EC and some other publishers were dishing up back then.” Moldoff agreed, noting that as Fawcett “test[ed] the waters with [these comics], Will Lieberson was always very careful not to go too far with anything” [58]. Like Gaines at EC, Lieberson and Fawcett could not afford to ignore the changing tastes of their readers who, in the late 1940s and early 1950s, shifted their affection from superheroes to crime, horror, and romance comics. As EC ushered in what Whitted and other scholars have described as “The Atomic Age of Comics” [13], Fawcett, with Beck, Binder, and Costanza’s mighty Captain Marvel still their most popular hero, struggled to remain relevant as the company defended itself in the copyright infringement battle with National/ DC. Coupled with the Senate hearings about the alleged links between comics and juvenile delinquency, Moldoff remarked that the lawsuit “was another fiasco!” [59]. In his opinion, not only did “Superman and Captain Marvel have a lot more differences than they do similarities,” but, as all good Captain Marvel Club members know, “‘Captain Marvel’ was by far the better strip of the two” [60]. Billy and the rest of the Marvel Family hung in there as best they could, but it appeared unlikely that the heady days of the 1940s, when Captain Marvel first captivated readers, would return anytime soon. The house ad that appears on the inner front cover of This Magazine Is Haunted #1, in both its horror and simplicity, sums up these sudden changes in the marketplace while offering a sense of the desperation Fawcett must have felt. Under a black-&-white banner that reads “Adventure for the Atomic Age!” is a mushroom cloud surrounded by the names of Fawcett titles ranging from Whiz Comics and Bob Swift, Boy Sportsman to Captain Video and Tom Mix. Each one, the ad reminds us, costs only 10 cents “on newsstands across the nation.” The image suggests the explosive entertainment packed into these pages, but it also hints at the very real and frightening landscape of the early 1950s: the splitting of the atom brought with it abundant new resources along with the possibility of Doomsday itself. Meanwhile, soldiers and their
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“The Atomic Age Of Comics” (Left:) A Fawcett house ad for October 1951—either hawking the power of the company’s comicbook titles, or else a prophecy of Doomsday! (Right:) The cover of Qiana Whitted’s EC Comics: Race, Shock & Social Protest, being published by Rutgers University Press in 2019, which refers to the comics of that era, especially EC’s, as “The Atomic Age of Comics.” [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
families continued adjusting to post-war life, as the trauma of the war, as Samuel R. Delany once put it, “circulated as an unstated and inarticulate horror” [186], a phantom presence in the movies, the comics, and the literature of the period. Take a look again at Arthur Miller’s All My Sons (1947) or at the nightmare sequences in Sloan Wilson’s The Man in the Gray Flannel Suit (1955) for a sense of the anxiety that floated beneath the placid surface of suburbia. Even Beck and Binder tried to get in on the act with stories like “Captain Marvel and the Creeping Horror” from Captain Marvel Adventures #126 (April 1951) and The “Creeping Horror” several later stories there, in Whiz Comics, and in The Genre Marvel Family. In a memorandum he wrote in 1952, Otto Fawcett’s Captain Marvel Binder even noted his desire to “[k]eep abreast of times Adventures #126 (Nov. and present [the] market with Korean war and horror ’51); cover by C.C. Beck. Chief writer Otto Binder stories” (for more details, see Alter Ego #123 / FCA #182, assimilated the horror March 2014). But it was all just too little, too late. By early trend into “Captain Marvel” 1954, the Marvel Family was gone, along with Fawcett’s stories, with what many other comics, victims of the seemingly endless fight consider less than satisfying with National. Meanwhile, Moldoff’s This Magazine Is Haunted, like so many of the undead ghouls and vampires who stalked its pages, returned from the grave thanks to Charlton. Significant in the history of horror comics in the U.S., the comic is probably best remembered for including some of Ditko’s earliest and most striking work. With his passing in the summer of 2018, interest in his work has only increased. Soon, for example, the University Press of Mississippi will publish Zack Kruse’s study of Ditko as part of Tom Inge’s Great
results. Of course, as the cover reveals, this story was also being played partly for laughs; others were scripted in a dead-serious manner, although the cartoon-style art by Beck or Kurt Schaffenberger was considerably less horrific than that of Graham Ingels! [Shazam hero TM & © DC Comics.]
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Comics Artists Series, and Andrei Molotiu is writing a book on Lee and Ditko’s Spider-Man for Rutgers. With Spidey and Doctor Strange now playing central roles in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, Ditko’s comics remain vital and inspiring, not just to comics fans and scholars, but also for innovative young cartoonists like Austin English, who finds Ditko’s problematic later work visually fascinating. In a recent e-mail to me, Austin added, “I’d, of course, assume that Ditko would find the lack of clarity in my work vexing,” to which he added a smiley face. I asked Austin to share some of his insights with me about Ditko’s continued relevance. In our e-mail exchange, he writes eloquently about the challenges that the cartoonist faced over the course of his long career: My friend Dylan Williams, a historian of the Golden and Silver Age in addition to being deeply engaged with contemporary avant-garde comics, had this great observation about Ditko: “People say so much about Ditko, that he’s crazy, that he’s eccentric, that he’s this or that. What they never ask themselves is, what is it like to be him, to go through everything he went through. How would they act if they had his life?” I used to associate Dylan’s observation as being about what it would mean to make a character like Spider-Man become this world-recognized symbol that didn’t represent your values and was out of your control. Now, I interpret it more as being a sharp statement on how Ditko had intellectual intentions for his work, he thought about things (i.e. the word THINK above his desk), and he had to work in an industry that was hostile to thought in many ways. The impact of Ditko’s sometimes grotesque but always controlled and compelling style is clearly on display in Austin’s 2016 collection Gulag Casual. The muted colors, the heavy black lines, the density of the compositions—read a story like “The Disgusting Room” from that book and I think you’ll discover what Ditko’s art might have looked like had he studied with Robert Rauschenberg or
Ditko Lives!? The impact of Ditko’s spellbinding style is found in Austin English’s 2016 collection Gulag Casual. [TM & © Austin English.]
Ditko’s Dreaded Debut! Ditko’s first cover for This Magazine Is Haunted—#17 (May ’54)—and the splash page of a Ditko-drawn story from that issue, “3-D Disaster Doom Death!,” a tale that helped set the stage for his later work at Marvel. Script probably by Joe Gill. [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
with photographer/performance artist Jack Smith. Like those two artists, Austin English ignores what most of us consider to be the limits of the comics form, while also, like Dylan Williams, celebrating the more obscure corners of its history. After kindly sharing these insights with me, Austin also urged me to read Joe McCulloch’s “The Avenging Page (In Excelsis Ditko),” published on the website Comics Comics in 2011, for other insights into the cartoonist’s complex body of work. McCulloch, Austin assured me, “has done the intellectual work on Steve” by analyzing everything from these early Charlton stories through the justly celebrated Marvel and DC books of the 1960s to the zine-like pamphlets published by Robin Snyder beginning in the late 1980s (see McCulloch). The roots of Ditko’s work on Spider-Man, McCulloch argues, lie in stories like “3-D Disaster Doom Death!,” “Triple-Header!,” “The Night People,” and “Bridegroom, Come Back!,” each one probably (according to the Grand Comics Database) written by Joe Gill and drawn by Ditko for This Magazine Is Haunted in 1954 (see issues #17 and 18). In addition to drawing those stories, Ditko also provided the covers for issues #16, 17, 18, 19, and 21. A few years later, Ditko would be strongly represented in the 1957-58 incarnation of the title. I’ll leave those later issues for you to explore on your own, dear reader, either in the lovely hardcover facsimile editions published by PS Artbooks in 2016 (of the Fawcett and both Charlton incarnations) or online at the Digital Comic Museum. In the stories published in 1954, you’ll find Ditko experimenting
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with page layouts, with light and shadow, with the geometric compositions that became a significant part of his work on “Doctor Strange” in the 1960s. In his analysis, McCulloch suggests that these innovations at Marvel can be traced to Ditko’s work on the revenge fantasies in these violent comics. “The crux of the Marvel revolution, you’ll recall,” McCulloch writes, was its revitalization of the super-hero concept through modification, and occasional generic cross-breeding. Ditko had worked primarily in pre-Comics Code horror comics and post-Code sci-fi and suspense shorts; as luck would have it, “Spider-Man” was not so much a product of the
super-hero tradition, as it had developed following WWII into the Silver Age, but “a child of the EC tradition, the cruel-twist aesthetic that presided over the pre-Code horror scene and informed much of the trajectory of Amazing [Adult] Fantasy [emphasis in the original].” To support his argument, McCulloch includes a panel from Spider-Man’s origin story in which Peter Parker, his face now exposed, weeps as he realizes that he could have stopped the thief who murdered his Uncle Ben. “The ol’ Parker luck, in its earliest incarnation” in the closing panels of Amazing Fantasy #15, McCulloch explains, “is distinctly moral,” another ghostly echo of those Charlton tales published a decade earlier. Take, for example, “Bridegroom, Come Back!,” the most chilling of the stories Ditko brought to ghastly life in 1954. Not only does it include the “cruel twist” ending so common in EC and other horror comics of the early 1950s, but it also includes numerous examples of what McCulloch, later in his essay, describes as one of the hallmarks of Ditko’s later style. In the comics published by Robin Snyder, the artist, McCulloch points out, makes “[use] of the revelatory iconographic values” that Ditko, nearing the end of his life, “[attributed] to the fundamental elements of his craft—lines, Here Comes The “Bridegroom!”
Ditko’s cover for This Magazine Is Haunted #18 (July ’54), and two pages from its otherworldly Ditko-drawn tale, “Bridegroom, Come Back!,” as probably scripted by Joe Gill. [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
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dots, marks—so that meaning is readily ascertainable apart from the usage of text or the sequential build of meaning across series of panels, or even the positioning of characters in-panel.” The “marks” themselves, McCulloch suggests, take on a life and a meaning of their own, one often more significant than the figures or the captions. With those persuasive points in mind, let’s consider two of the panels on the third page of “Bridegroom, Come Back!” that anticipate the melancholy closing images of abandoned streets in Antonioni’s 1962 film Le E’Clisse. While the story’s human protagonist, having been murdered by her husband, no longer has a voice (at least for now!), her wedding dress does, and, hanging in a closet, it speaks for her. It begins with the first panel on this page. Now discarded, the dress describes “the soundless closet” where it feels “oppressed by the darkness,” alone save for a few boxes and a white, frilly dressing gown beside it. Like the woman who once wore it, this dress expresses its desire for touch, “for her return” and the feel of “her soft hands….” The bridal gown, nostalgic for the light and good humor of its wedding day, does not trust the bridegroom, who, we soon learn, has murdered his young wife! To make matters worse, the killer returns, and pawns the gown for a mere “twenty dollars” at the shop Ditko includes in the second-to-last
panel of the page. Two word balloons convey the conversation between the shop’s owner and the murderer. The panel itself, with its triangles, circles, and squares, might be the doorway to one of Doctor Strange’s occult landscapes— or, for that matter, the geometric shapes adorning the panels in Austin English’s “Freddy’s Dead.” The thick, black, diagonal lines that shadow the sidewalk are early examples of those “elements of his craft” that Ditko, as McCulloch reminds us, would foreground to such unnerving effect in his late work.
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A Watershed Event The destruction caused by the 1955 Connecticut River flood was documented later that year in a booklet published by the Waterbury Republican-American newspaper. The communities of Connecticut’s Naugatuck River Valley, in which Charlton Comics was located, experienced one of the worst disasters in the region’s history. See Jon B. Cooke & TwoMorrows’ Comic Book Artist #9 for full coverage and several photos of that natural disaster. [© the respective copyright holders.]
These strange shapes give way in the last panel of this sample page to more familiar ones—a cistern, picture frames, a blood red curtain. “So now I hang in the gloom and dust of the pawnshop,” the caption reads. “The smells are sour here… and no bride ever enters.” The “gloom and [the] dust” are the remnants of this once promising marriage, now left to decay because of the bloodthirsty villainy of the bridegroom’s greed. Just as haunting as what comes next—as the bride returns from the dead to claim her dress and to fetch her husband—these two panels, I think, provide additional evidence for McCulloch’s already persuasive thesis. In his work for Charlton, Ditko conjured up the kinds of landscapes that would bring to The Amazing Spider-Man and to “Doctor Strange” the fragile, lonely, disembodied quality that distinguishes those books. In his brief profile of Ditko published in The Great Comic Book Artists (1986), Ron Goulart includes a passage from writer Will Murray that I think best sums up the haunting quality that continued to pervade Ditko’s work in the 1960s. Describing his memory of Marvel titles like Tales of Suspense and Journey Into Mystery, Murray praises Ditko as his “favorite of the Marvel crew” in part because of the “creepy, crepuscular style” of his inks [qtd. in Goulart 32].
But let’s put this history lesson aside for a moment. The facts are good enough, but limited. What good is comics history without a little imagination? What if Charlton had hired Ditko to draw “Ibis the Invincible” stories for Danger and Adventure? What would they have looked like? And how would that experience have shaped his career, and perhaps even his work at Marvel?
Face To (No-)Face! A page from “The Faceless Ones,” drawn by Ditko in the Comics Codeapproved This Magazine Is Haunted, Vol. 2, #12 (Oct. 1957). Probably scripted by Joe Gill. Perhaps a precursor to Ditko’s “The Question,” who was seen on earlier pages of this issue. [Page at left TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
Maybe Ditko drew a few sample pages as a try-out for Charlton. What if those pages were lost or destroyed in the flood? You do know about the flood, don’t you? Let me explain: In August 1955, the cities and towns in Connecticut’s Naugatuck River Valley experienced one of the worst disasters in living memory. In a booklet published by
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He Had Charlton Covered! The artist whom Stan Lee would later dub “Sturdy Steve” drew the pre-Code (from left to right) covers of This Magazine Is Haunted #14 (Dec. 1953), #16 (March 1954), & #19 (Aug. 1954). [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
This Magazine Is Haunted—Again! Steve Ditko drew—and signed—the covers of two issues of the second, Code-approved volume of This Magazine Is Haunted: #12 (July 1957) & #14 (Dec. ’57). At this point, he was definitely ready for not only “Captain Atom” and “The Question,” but for “Dr. Strange” and “Spider-Man”! Thanks to the Grand Comics Database. [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
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the Waterbury Republican-American newspaper later that year, the editors claim that “[n]ot even the hurricane of 1938 nor the Connecticut River’s record crests of 1936 or 1938 compared” with the destruction caused by the flooding. “From Winsted down to Ansonia, Derby, and Shelton there developed a maelstrom of malevolence,” they write. “Nothing was too sacred—parochial properties in Torrington, a church in Union City, two cemeteries in Seymour were devastated; nothing was too modern—a drive-in theater in Watertown evaporated before the floods.” In issue #9 of Comic Book Artist, published by TwoMorrows for August of 2000, Jon B. Cooke and Christopher Irving describe the terrible impact Hurricane Diane had on Charlton: “The 129 acres of building and land housing The Capital Distributing Company and its associate publisher, Charlton Press, were submerged in 18 feet of water” [16]. In their article on the history of the company, Cooke and Irving include accounts from Charlton employees, including Joe Gill, who remembered that “[t]he press was entirely underwater, the building was underwater” [15]. Imagine, then, in the midst of this destruction, Ditko’s “Ibis” pages being washed away, never to be seen again. After all, as Cooke and Irving point out, the flood damaged about “$300,000 [worth of] paper inventory, mats, comics art work, and plates,” all of it “destroyed by the flood in minutes” [15]. If those pages had existed, what would they have looked like? What stories did they tell? Maybe a Charlton employee, sensing their value, hid them away in the attic of her three-family house. Those pages might remain there, even today, waiting to be discovered, like Hester Prynne’s scarlet letter in the desk of Nathaniel Hawthorne’s Custom House.
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In New England, we tend to put our faith in stories like this. Saddened over the destruction of his work, and shaken by the senseless loss of so many lives in the flood, Ditko might have written notes of what he could remember from his thumbnail sketches: the magic wand known as the Ibistick, the lovely and ethereal Taia. A few years later, working for Marvel, maybe his imagination and his memory transformed Ibis’ weapon into the Wand of Watoomb, or Taia into Doctor Strange’s Clea. Maybe “The Wondrous World of Dr. Strange,” the story that first appeared in Amazing Spider-Man Annual #2 (Sept. 1965), is in fact a version of that earlier, destroyed “Ibis” story. Xandu, the villain in that issue, after all, is trying to piece together the fragments of the mysterious Wand of Watoomb. None of this is true, of course. Except for the flood. Then again, why tether ourselves to mere facts? As we celebrate Steve Ditko’s life and his achievements, why not leave a little room for the magical, the strange, and the impossible? We owe that to Ditko’s memory, and to the legacy he’s left for us.
Wondrous—And Waterlogged (Left:) A Ditko tour de force: “The Wondrous World of Dr. Strange” from Amazing Spider-Man Annual #2 (Sept. 1965), with script by Stan Lee. This tale brought together two of Ditko’s (and Lee’s) co-creations for the first time. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.] (Above:) Found floating on the Connecticut River during the great Naugatuck River Valley flood of ’55 was this snippet of “Ibis the Invincible” original art drawn by Steve Ditko. (Okay—just kidding! But Eric Jansen, channeling his inner Ditko, shows us what such a page might have looked like!) [Ibis the Invincible TM & © DC Comics; other art TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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Works Cited: Cooke, Jon B. and Christopher Irving. “The Charlton Empire: A Brief History of the Derby, Connecticut, Publisher.” Comic Book Artist no. 9 (August 2000): 14–21. Cremins, Brian. “Otto Binder’s Magic Words: The Writer’s Plan to Save Captain Marvel Adventures.” Alter Ego no. 123/Fawcett Collectors of America no. 182 (March 2014): 77–80. Delany, Samuel R. Times Square Red, Times Square Blue. New York University Press, 1999. English, Austin. “Re: Alter Ego Essay on Ditko.” E-mail to the author. March 10, 2019. English, Austin. “Re: Alter Ego Essay on Ditko.” E-mail to the author. March 16, 2019. Goulart, Ron. The Great Comic Book Artists. St. Martin’s Press, 1986. Hamerlinck, P. C. “‘A Job Is a Job’: Sheldon Moldoff’s Final FCA Interview.” Alter Ego no. 119/Fawcett Collectors of America no. 178 (August 2013): 57–60. McCulloch, Joe. “The Avenging Page (In Excelsis Ditko).” Comics Comics February 14, 2011. http://comicscomicsmag.com/?p=8320. Accessed 15 March 2019.
This Magazine Is Haunted, four volumes. PS Artbooks, 2016. Western Connecticut’s Great Flood Disaster. Published by the Waterbury, Connecticut, Republican-American, 1955. Whitted, Qiana. EC Comics: Race, Shock & Social Protest. Rutgers University Press, 2019. Thanks to P.C. Hamerlinck, Austin English, Allison Felus, and Scott Roberts for their help and advice on this essay. And thanks to Harlan Ellison for writing “One Life, Furnished in Early Poverty,” and for calling all those years ago.
Further Reading: If you’d like to read Steve Ditko’s work on This Magazine Is Haunted yourself, be sure to visit the Grand Comics Database, which will clue you in on the work he did for the series. The Database also includes information on where these stories have been reprinted. If you can’t get your hands on the originals or on those reprints (such as the four PS Artbooks volumes), visit the Digital Comic Museum or Comic Book Plus, which include scans of all of these comics, which are now, along with the original Fawcett series, in the public domain. According to the Database, Ditko provided the covers for This Magazine Is Haunted #16 (March 1954); #17 (May 1954); #18 (July 1954); #19 (August 1954); and #21 (November 1954). In 1957, Charlton discontinued a title called Za Za the Mystic. As the Database points out, what would have been Za Za’s 12th issue appeared on newsstands as This Magazine Is Haunted #12. Ditko did the covers for #12 (July 1957), #13 (October 1957), and #14 (December 1957). Ditko drew the following stories for the series. According to the GCD, Joe Gill most likely wrote most of these, with letters provided by Charlotte Jetter or by Jon D’Agostino (see the Database for full credits): #17 (May 1954) “3-D Disaster Doom Death!” “Triple-Header! “The Night People” #18 (July 1954) “Bridegroom, Come Back!” #12 (July 1957) “The Faceless Ones” “The Messages”
“The Thing on the Beach” “His Fate” “The Last One” #13 (Oct. 1957) “He Shall Have Vengeance” “The Drums” “Menace of the Invisibles” “ The Man Who Changed Bodies”
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Dr. Death—Meet Dr. Haunt! Ditko’s cover for This Magazine Is Haunted, Vol. 2, #13 (Oct. 1957). By the time Charlton rolled out the second volume of the title, the book’s host, Dr. Death, had had his name (and face) changed by the editors to those of the less menacing “Dr. Haunt”—undoubtedly to appease the recently-formed Comics Code Authority. [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
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#14 (Dec. 1957) “ From Out of the Depths” “The Green Man” “The Second Self” “ The Man Who Disappeared” #16 (May 1958) “The Man from Time” “The Green Peace” “ The Night Was Strange” “Impossible, But…”
Alter Ego #161 writer/editorial
The Last Gathering
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by John “THE MEGO STRETCH HULK” Cimino
A/E EDITOR’S INTRO: Yes, you read it right, above. This issue, because I wanted to place my own brief reminiscences of Stan Lee—in this edition primarily devoted to celebrating The Man—alongside those of other Marvel Age staffers, I decided to utilize a piece written by my friend and manager, John Cimino, as a guest writer/editorial. John’s comments lead into my own, anyway, since both deal largely with the last time I saw Stan in person, just a couple of days before his passing. And since it was John who, at least from our side, set the whole thing up, it seemed to make sense that his account be read first…
A
sk me something about math or world history and I probably couldn’t give you the right answer. But if you asked me something about super-heroes and comicbook history, well, then I could make even a genius like Albert Einstein proud. Even as a child, I always wished that “Comics 101” was a real school subject, because I was always intrigued how these comics—or, as I like to say, these “colorful love letters from Heaven”—came to be. Sure, the characters and stories always fueled my imagination, but they had to come from somewhere! Who created them? Who came up with the ideas? What was their story? I, of course, in later years, read a ton of books on comics history and never missed an issue of Alter Ego (was that a shameless plug?). That magazine in particular, because it was one of the definitive sources chronicling
Roy The Boy & Stan The Man Roy Thomas and Stan Lee at a Dec. 5, 2014 signing for Roy’s book 75 Years of Marvel: From the Golden Age to the Silver Screen, at the Taschen Books store in Beverly Hills, California. Photo by Josh Baker.
the back stories behind the comics creators and events that gave us this modern mythology without any fluff. And, being an obsessed fan, it always fascinated me to read about the legends and lore of what went on “behind the scenes” in the comic industry. The creators were a fraternity that no one else was privy to, and they were living a life that I could only dream of being part of. So, sitting here at my laptop to write this article, because I’m actually now a small part of that history—well, that’s something I couldn’t have ever imagined. But somehow it’s true. Somehow the fates allowed me to befriend Roy Thomas (or as he likes to say, I just kind of showed up and never left) and orchestrate a plan to get him and Stan together for one last time and bookend Stan’s illustrious career forever in the pages of time. So before I continue, I would like to thank Roy and Dann Thomas for letting me into their lives and giving this little dreamer from Massachusetts the thrill of a lifetime. Here’s my moment in comicbook history: Hopping on a plane with my daughter Bryn to the annual Roy and Dann Thomas Halloween party in South Carolina in late October is always a treat (especially since it often takes place on the weekend of the anniversary of when I got into this business). The food and festivities are a-plenty and the costumed ghouls and ghosts that swarm about are good people who bring warm smiles. My daughter was in charge of taking photos in 2018, because the year before, that task was left up to Roy and things didn’t go so well (something about a big blurry finger on the camera lens, but I digress). Bryn dressed up as one of Roy’s co-creations, Carol Danvers (aka Captain Marvel), while snapping pics and enjoying the animals on the Thomas spread. She did her job well and got
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paid very well. Things finally slowed down in the wee hours of the morning, and after my daughter fell asleep on the couch, Roy eagerly removed his Flipper the dolphin costume and met me in their upstairs entertaining area (and library) to talk business and our plans for the following year.
told Jon privately that I didn’t want anyone else around when Roy and Stan got together. This was a big moment for those guys, where they could just chill out without any pressure and talk about Roy’s new upcoming book from Taschen called The Stan Lee Story and whatever else they wanted. In recent years, the two legends mostly had e-mail correspondence with each other, and Roy hadn’t been to Stan’s house since the ’80s when he was there for only a few minutes, so this was long overdue.
After an intense conversation about achieving world domination, I said to Roy that we should call a fellow comics dealer/friend of mine named Chandler Rice to see if he could open up some avenues to get him and Stan Lee together When the time came and Smiles All Around! one more time. You see, since we were being driven to Stan’s (Left to right:) Stan Lee, John Cimino, and Roy Thomas in the last of the three 2016, I’d been trying to get Roy home, Roy confided in me that photos snapped during the visit to Stan’s Hollywood Hills home on November and Stan together, but there had he was a little nervous. I said to 10, 2018. Photo taken by Jon Bolerjack, with John C.’s phone/camera. been some major roadblocks him, “You don’t have anything (the less I say about those, the to worry about. Stan doesn’t better). So now, with certain people out of Stan’s life, this would have the power to fire you anymore.” He got a good laugh out of be the perfect opportunity to ask, because even though Stan had that. Soon enough, Roy and I were dropped off at Stan’s doorstep retired from doing appearances at comic conventions, Chandler and let in by Jon. For me personally, the experience was surreal. still did private signings with “the Man” at his Hollywood Hills Stan Lee and Roy Thomas were two of my heroes growing up. Their house. I told Roy that I was going to call him and see if I could set stories entertained me for literally decades and gave me the ability something up. to achieve much in my own life. Now to actually be in Stan’s house and setting up this “supa-dupa” reunion, I was able to give them Without hesitation I call Chandler, totally forgetting (or not something special back. Sitting on Stan’s couch in his living room caring) about time zone differences. “Hello, John—do you know and watching the two legends talk shop was nuts. I was just taking what time it is?” Chandler says as he groggily answers the phone. it all in and thinking, “Jeez, those are the two guys that thought up “Who cares?” I retorted with a smile. “I’m with someone.” Chandler Spider-Man and Wolverine.” then says “Who?” There’s a long pause as I pass the phone to Roy, who says, “Hello, Chandler, this is Roy Thomas.” With a gulp and When I eventually walked into the room where they were I’m sure some shock, Chandler says, “Hello, Roy.” Now all of the talking, the first thing Stan said to me was, “Hello, John.” I’m, like, sudden he perks up and is chock-full of energy. I eventually take he knows my name? I knelt in front of him and began to tell him my over the conversation and tell Chandler that I want to get Roy and feelings for Roy and that I’ll always have his back no matter what. Stan together as soon as possible. He informs me that Stan has a Stan held my hand and said, “God bless you. Take care of my boy new handler named Jon Bolerjack, who happens to be a really good Roy.” Then I literally sat at Stan and Roy’s feet as they continued guy, so he’ll talk to him for me. I was ecstatic because it had been so talking. It was magical, like I was a mere mortal at the top of Mount difficult getting to Stan in the past. After our conversation ended, Olympus. I have no idea how long it lasted, but it ended with me I sat back, crossed my arms, and looked at Roy with a triumphant taking two pictures of Stan and Roy and then joining in on the last yet sinister smile that would make even the late Martin Goodman one. Stan said “God bless” as Roy and I were leaving. Honestly, I proud. I knew the die was cast, my plan was in motion, and even couldn’t tell if anything that just happened was real. Roy’s pessimism wasn’t going to stop it. But reality set in soon enough, sadly, as Stan passed away less A week or so later, after getting a number from Chandler, I left than 48 hours later. a message with Jon. He soon called me back, saying that Stan hadn’t As I said at the beginning, when I look back and think about all been feeling well for a long time and hadn’t wanted to see anybody this, it’s astonishing to fathom that I really am part of a “timeless” in weeks. But when Jon mentioned to him that Roy wanted to drop moment in comicbook history. The last gathering of the two greats by for a visit, Stan happily made the exception. Jon and I decided will forever be mentioned when fans gather together and celebrate to get the two icons together as quickly as possible, because Stan’s the lives of Stan Lee, Roy Thomas, and comicbooks in general. And health was failing. The timing couldn’t have been better, as Roy’s after enduring a lot of stress and chaos in the later years of his life, birthday was coming up on Thanksgiving and Christmas was right Stan was able to just sit back and talk with his protégé one last time around the corner, so I figured I could save a few bucks and give without any pressure or concern and enjoy the moment. Yeah, I him this as a special all-in-one “bundle” present. When I told Roy helped make that happen. Not a bad accomplishment for a dreamer. the news, he was ecstatic and couldn’t believe I’d delivered on yet another “impossible” promise. Exactly a week later, on Saturday, Excelsior indeed… November 10th, Roy and I were in Beverly Hills, California. BOOM!!! Jon told me we could see Stan at 3:00 p.m., so Roy, Chandler, his sidekick Jason Howell, and I met up a few hours before to do a private signing at a diner called Mel’s Drive-In. It was a perfect location, because we were just a few minutes from Stan’s house. I
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Conducted On-Air By CAROLE HEMINGWAY, KABC-Talk Radio, October 1975 Transcribed by Steven Tice – with Additions by Rand Hoppe
CAROLE HEMINGWAY: Hi, everybody. The time is 9:05 at KABC-Talk Radio… this is ridiculous! Why did I invite you here? [chuckles; Lee laughs] Who can talk about comicbooks? Nobody can talk about comicbooks for an entire hour. They’re boring and violent… bloodshed!
A/E
EDITOR’S INTRO: In October 1975, Stan Lee, then still living on the East Coast and serving as Marvel Comics’ publisher, made one of his periodic trips to Los Angeles—in this case, to help promote the new Simon & Schuster/Fireside hardcover Son of Origins of Marvel Comics, the sequel to 1974’s Origins of Marvel Comics. Both books were composed of stories he had scripted in the 1960s for the early days of Marvel, with Lee also providing new prose introductions to each tale. One of his most memorable appearances was on talk-radio station KABC in L.A., where the nighttime hostess was Carole Hemingway. Hemingway had begun on the station a year earlier, and had quickly become a very popular presence on the nighttime air waves, remaining there until 1982, and later having another such radio gig (though in the afternoon) from 1986-93. She also later owned a media consulting firm operating out of Beverly Hills, California, and for some time wrote a nationally syndicated newspaper column of social commentary.
STAN LEE: Just ask me some questions. Just introduce the thing. There is violence, there is bloodshed, but these are Marvel Comics, which are a model of decorum. HEMINGWAY: No, no, no… I’ve been reading this… LEE: You lucky devil… HEMINGWAY: No, no, no… you’re the devil. LEE: The introductions that I wrote, did you know… HEMINGWAY: No, they are pretty bad, actually. LEE: Well, it’s been nice seeing you! I’m glad the settings are not turned on or anything. [chuckles]
Carole Hemingway & Stan Lee bookend the cover of the brand new 1975 Simon & Schuster/Fireside
HEMINGWAY: This is Stan Lee, by the way. He originated Marvel Comics and all those people with some sort of extra-fantastic power. We have Marvel Girl, Cyclops, Iceman, Iron Man, Magneto, Wasp, Silver Surfer, Ant-Man…
When I first read a transcription hardcover book that Lee had come west to ballyhoo: Son of Origins of of some of the latter part of this Marvel Comics, with its dramatic painted cover by John Romita. [Cover hour-long interview with Stan Lee, art TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.] I thought—as, apparently, did a few other readers as opposed to listeners— that Carole and Stan had gotten off on the wrong foot and were hostile to LEE: I love The Silver Surfer. each other. However, after the entire talk was transcribed, it was apparent that it was nothing but a good-natured verbal “love & insult fest,” perhaps HEMINGWAY: He’s mean and cruel. a welcome aperitif to all the radio shows on which Stan did little but plug LEE: No, he’s sweet and adorable—almost Christ-like in his aspect product. He and Hemingway made a good match—and when I discovered and demeanor, and the college kids are really into The Silver that none other than the legendary Jack Kirby had called in near the end Surfer. of the show to toss in his 2¢ worth (at a time when he had only recently returned to Marvel for what would become, alas, merely a three-year HEMINGWAY: They’re into The Silver Surfer… stay), I decided that it had to be spotlighted in this celebration of Stan the Man…. LEE: There’s a lot of philosophy… Your problem is…
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LEE: It is “Stan space Lee.” I hate everybody saying, “Stanley what?” I thought of changing of my name to “Stan Lee What,” so when people say, “Stanley what?” I can say, “You’re right. HEMINGWAY: We have Stan Lee What on the program. If you can possibly think of anything to talk about comicbooks, please call in. LEE: You’re too good-looking for radio. HEMINGWAY: Oh, really? LEE: I’d like you to have a TV show. HEMINGWAY: I like Stan Lee a little better. Go ahead… LEE: I’m mad about you. I’ve been interviewed by so many people and they’re just people. Then, I come in here, and here’s this doll who is speaking rotten to me over the microphone! [Hemingway chuckles] I’ve got fifty minutes left to make her a comic fan… to win her heart and her affections. And I have a cold in the nose to boot! [chuckles] There’s no way! HEMINGWAY: Let’s see. Can he, or can he not do it? LEE: This is the way we do our comic strips, see? Stay with us and see what happens. HEMINGWAY: Stay with us and I’ll give you some phone numbers: 870-7263 is our number in Los Angeles, in the Valley, 981-7900, in the South Bay area, 644-0790. LEE: You said that dramatically! HEMINGWAY: Wasn’t that beautiful? [Ad comes on about cutting taxes for 1975: Glendale Federal Savings]
“Sentinel Of The Spaceways!” The splash page of The Silver Surfer #1 (Aug. 1968). Script by Stan Lee… pencils by John Buscema… inks by Joe Sinnott. He was called the “Sentinel of the Spaceways” on the cover—even though, ever since Fantastic Four #50, he had been exiled to Earth by edict of his former master, Galactus. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
HEMINGWAY: Oh, yes, tell me about my problem…
HEMINGWAY: KABC-Talk Radio time is now 9:10. Now there are “Goodyear Tires”… “Goodyear makes the goin’ great!,” etc., etc. I have to ask you, Stan Lee: What kind of tires are on that fantastic limousine you drove up to the studio in? LEE: The only thing that would tear me away from you is if I had Hugh Hefner’s three-block long Mercedes limousine waiting outside.
LEE: Obviously, you’re not a comicbook buff, but we have about fifty-five minutes left, so I will proselytize you, if you’ll forgive me. I think we should do something with you and turn you into a real human being. HEMINGWAY: [belly laughter] LEE: You’re a nice person… a lousy human being, but a nice person. HEMINGWAY: This is Stan Lee from Marvel Comics... LEE: You go out for coffee and I’ll handle the show… HEMINGWAY: Daredevil and Marvel Girl and all these people… LEE: The X-Men… HEMINGWAY: What’s the matter with your voice? LEE: I’ve got this terrible cold. See, when I live in New York where it’s foggy and gloomy and smoggy and dirty and dingy and terrible, I’m as healthy as hell. I come out here to beautiful Los Angeles and I get sick. I’m going to sue the city of Los Angeles. HEMINGWAY: Please don’t. We have enough problems. [Lee chuckles] This is Stan Lee…
Forget The Fantastic Four! This Is The Fantastic Flivver! Stan Lee some years after this interview, with his 1987 Mercedes 420 SEL. Though he joked about his car that night being borrowed from Hugh Hefner (whom, by coincidence, he would wind up virtually playing in a 21st-century film cameo), Stan did have some posh cars over the years.
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HEMINGWAY: Will you marry me? LEE: Eagerly. Let me describe Carole to you [listeners]. Do the people know what you look like? HEMINGWAY: No! LEE: She’s got that short, fluffy, auburn hair and great lips! Sensational eyes. Tall, thin, and lean and very passionate-looking. [Hemingway chuckles] I’ve got to give you a lift in that Mercedes. This may be a great night of all time for Los Angeles romance. HEMINGWAY: Oh! How did you get in that Mercedes? Is it really Hugh Hefner’s? LEE: I got in trembling. Yeah, yeah. See, Simon & Schuster, which publishes the Son of Origins of Marvel Comics, which you’re going to talk about in great lengths very shortly… HEMINGWAY: Which we’re going to push for you so you’re going to sell a lot…
Cover Story (Left:) Marie Severin’s earlier sketch intended as the layout for the cover of the 1974 Simon & Schuster/Fireside book Origins of Marvel Comics, spotlighting Spider-Man, Captain America, et al. However, a different art approach was used for that one. (Right:) Instead, John Romita used Marie’s sketch as the starting point for the cover he drew and colored (as seen here) and later painted as the cover of Son of Origins of Marvel Comics. Both reproduced from the Al Bigley Archives. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
LEE: … so I can someday buy a Mercedes like that. They arranged for me to have a car to take me here, because obviously, this place is nowhere. [Hemingway laughs] Instead of the usual Cadillac limousine, I got a call: “Hello, Mr. Lee, this is Roger, your chauffeur.” “Well, okay, Rog. Look, I got a beige sweater, a mustache, and I’m kind of confused-looking. You’ll spot me when I come downstairs.” He said, “Well, I’ve got the only black Mercedes limousine in the courtyard; you can’t miss it.” I said, “You’re kidding!” I raced downstairs and he wasn’t kidding! It’s got one of these back seats where two seats face the other seats. It’s the biggest thing you ever saw! Everybody was staring! I almost said, “Forget the radio show; just keep driving!” HEMINGWAY: Ah! I’ve gotta see it! We never would have met! LEE: I’m so glad we made it. I’m so glad we did! HEMINGWAY: I can see how you originated. I spent the whole day reading comicbooks.
LEE: That’s probably why you’re so articulate and interesting! Were you here before I came on? HEMINGWAY: Not with the same vibrancy and intellectual timbre that you have brought to the show… [talks into phone] Carole Hemingway, you’re on Talk Radio. Welcome to the show. LEE: Mention my name, too… CALLER: Hello, Carole. This is Ed. HEMINGWAY: Yes, Ed. CALLER: I just gotta say, it’s an honor and a privilege to have this man in town. HEMINGWAY: [incredulously] Stan Lee?
CALLER: Yeah. LEE: Ed, you’re almost as wonderful as Carole! CALLER: Along with Confucius and other people like that. This is one of the movers and shakers of our time. HEMINGWAY: This is your brother, no doubt. LEE: No, no! I wish he were! CALLER: He is incredible. Among other things, he has shaped the whole lives of people… HEMINGWAY: Who is this calling? LEE: Be careful, Carole. I’ll snap my fingers and you’ll vanish. HEMINGWAY: Ed, who is this calling, saying all these things? LEE: I don’t know, but he’s a great guy. CALLER: I’m just somebody who’s been profoundly influenced by Marvel Comics. HEMINGWAY: Okay. Tell me why. CALLER: Let me tell you why. Here’s Spider-Man spending half of the comicbook trying to get enough plane fare to get to fight the villain. There’s a beautiful element of klutz that no other comic has ever thought to have done. HEMINGWAY: What did you say? LEE: “Klutz.” Our characters are the Woody Allens of the super-hero world. HEMINGWAY: In other words, for people who don’t know: they are super-heroes that are flawed.
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CALLER: Yes, you get it. You identify.
LEE: God bless ’em!
LEE: They’re like me. They may look perfect…
HEMINGWAY: Thank heavens for Ed. Ed, since Marvel Comics shaped your life, I want to know what kind of guy you are. What is a Marvel Comics guy really like?
HEMINGWAY: Yeah, you may… CALLER: I heard a rumor that he’s going to go into Captain Sticky, who was one of the great klutzes of all time. LEE: Ohhh… How did you hear about that? Do you know who Captain Sticky is? Captain Sticky is an old friend of mine. HEMINGWAY: Captain Sticky is going to save the world. LEE: Yes. With the help of Marvel Comics. HEMINGWAY: Captain Sticky weighs about 300 pounds and he is out to save the world with his peanut butter and jelly gun. CALLER: Right. HEMINGWAY: He’s going to shoot it at anyone who gets in his way. LEE: Now, do you ever know Captain Sticky well? Let me tell you. This will be a KABC first: a Carole Hemingway exclusive. I’d like everybody connected with other stations to turn your set off, please. Captain Sticky at Marvel Comics, through the good offices of Stan Lee, are negotiating to do, a nationwide, internationally distributed, Captain Sticky comicbook, which I know [talking over each other; unintelligible] HEMINGWAY: This has the same ring to it as saying Sonny and Cher are going to get back together again on CBS. LEE: Obviously, you’re unaware of these cultural endeavors sweeping the nation. If you were… HEMINGWAY: No, it’s amazing. People are really into comicbooks!
CALLER: I’m about five foot ten, 57 years old, and I’ve been deeply and profoundly moved about what Stan Lee has done over the years. Listen, Stan, remember, during World War II, the comicbook was taken as an instructional manual for people who had to learn real high skills real fast? LEE: I hate to say this in front of Carole, because she’ll think I’m over twenty… but, I was writing those things at the time. [unintelligible] and I and Will Eisner and others. CALLER: It’s not superficial; it’s really, really important. HEMINGWAY: Ed, I’m so glad you called. LEE: I’m even gladder. HEMINGWAY: I’m glad that you’re five feet ten and 57 years old! It was nice to talk with you. CALLER: Listen, it’s a very, very important art form. By the way, Carole, you’re kind of nice yourself. LEE: Is she ever! Thanks, Ed. HEMINGWAY: Somebody’s going to think you’re my father, brother, sister…? Sister? [laughter] This is Stan Lee What… LEE: “Stan Lee What”! Thanks a lot. HEMINGWAY: The book is Son of Origins of Marvel Comics. LEE: Ask me why it has this silly name. HEMINGWAY: Sigh. Why does it have this silly name? LEE: Because last year, I wrote a book, Origins of Marvel Comics, and it became a best-seller. This year, this is the sequel. What do you call the sequel? HEMINGWAY: The Daughter of the Origins…? LEE: [mutual laughter] No, because I’m a male chauvinist, I called it the “Son of the Origins”… Now, next year, we’ll do a third one, which may well be called the Brother-in-Law… HEMINGWAY: So you’ve got the whole family! You’ll have a million of them going out. It talks about how the characters were created… LEE: No, it doesn’t “talk” about. Those are stories that are published. We don’t say a book “talks” about a subject! HEMINGWAY: We don’t say a book “talks”? LEE: You’re talking to a comicbook person. HEMINGWAY: We talk about talking books. [to audience] It should be you asking questions; you can see I’m getting nowhere.
Stan & Captain Sticky pose for fan (and Comics Buyer’s Guide founder) Alan Light’s camera at the 1975 San Diego Comic-Con. The Captain’s real name was Richard Pesta, and he was a fixture at those early Southern California events… and apparently did some good simply by showing up at suspect places like abusive nursing homes. He claimed to get his powers (and his name) from his love for peanut butter. For various reasons, however, the promised Marvel Captain Sticky comicbook never did quite materialize. (Hint: They seem to have had to do with money.) Thanks to Ger Apeldoorn for the pic. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
[Lee begins singing nonsensically] HEMINGWAY: You can sing in the background… You want to know about The Silver Surfer? 870-7263 is our number in Los Angeles, in the Valley, 981-7900, in the South Bay area, 644-0790. Give me a call. LEE: You should see her profile! HEMINGWAY: [chuckles] Hello! Who is this? CALLER: This is Gary, Carole.
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CALLER: This is Bob. HEMINGWAY: Hiya, Bob. LEE: Hi, Bob. CALLER: I’ve read comics for about six years and unfortunately have been away from them for about a year. I’m wondering whatever happened to The X-Men? They were my favorite. LEE: Oh, am I glad you asked. We’ve been discussing Son of Origins of Marvel Comics and who do you think is the first strip that is mentioned and written about in glowing details in Son of Origins? None other than The X-Men. That’s where you can find out. It’s on sale now at better bookstores! No, no, it’s a funny thing, Bob. Things become glamorous these days, Bob, when they go out of circulation for a while. When we started The X-Men, they were a terribly popular strip. Carole is looking at it right now to see what I’m talking about. HEMINGWAY: I told you I was reading comicbooks today! LEE: That’s why you were all misty-eyed and dramatic with me. After a while, the sales started to slip a little and we had other fish to fry, so we decided to drop the book and go to other strips. HEMINGWAY: In other words, Stan, The X-Men didn’t do so well. LEE: The X-Men didn’t quite hack it after the first year, okay, but wait until I get to the point of this terribly earth-shattering tale… HEMINGWAY: Okay.
Father Of Son Of Origins John Romita’s painted cover for Simon & Schuster/Fireside’s 1974 tome Origins of Marvel Comics. Stan Lee was officially the author of all S&S’s Marvel-related books, since he wrote intros—and had scripted virtually all the stories in them. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
HEMINGWAY: This is Gary Carole? [to Stan] His last name is Carole. LEE: Oh, shut up.
LEE: We dropped the book for a while. After about six months, the fan mail started to come in: “Hey, what happened to The X-Men? When are you going to bring back those great X-Men?” After another few months: “Do you remember The X-Men from the great Golden Age of Comics? Whatever happened to them?” There seemed to be such a feeling of nostalgia in the air, but we didn’t want to do new stories—we didn’t have the time to draw them, so I said, “Just for fun, why don’t we reprint the old stories and publish them again.” Bob, would you believe that we sold the reprinted stories again and would you believe, the reprint version sold better than the original ones did? All of a sudden, we had a big hit on our hands. So, now we’re doing all-new original stories and it’s one of our best-selling books. All because we took it out of circulation for
CALLER: I’m doing a project right now for school, and I’m making costumes that are replicas of Marvel Comics characters. My question is, am I infringing on any copyrights? If so, who should I call? LEE: Let me put it this way: I’m the guy you’d come to for permission because I rule the whole world. But, if you’re doing this one project and you’re not going to make money by mass-producing them, you don’t have to worry about it. HEMINGWAY: Do you give him permission to do that, O “Ruler of the World”? LEE: Oh, shut up. You only need permission copyright-wise (as we say on Madison Avenue)—you only need permission if you’re going to make a business of it and sell them as a Marvel Comics character. You obviously can’t use our characters to go into a business. CALLER: Uh-huh. Okay. HEMINGWAY: Okay! Thank you for calling! LEE: The caller was a lot more polite to me than Carole. [chuckles] HEMINGWAY: [to next caller] You’re on Talk Radio. Okay, caller, you’re on the air.
Spider-Man Vs. Batman: The Photo Op Stan was not averse to fans (or professional actors) in costume—not even when it included both Marvel and DC heroes, as in this shot probably connected to one of the two companies’ crossovers of a decade or two ago. Thanks to Robert Higgerson.
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“X” Spots The Mark! This magnificent X-Men illustration by penciler Brent Anderson and inker Terry Austin (as colored by Patrick Oliff) was done as the wraparound cover of George Olshevsky’s X-Men edition of his Marvel Index series in the 1980s. From left to right, the original mutants of 1963 blend with those who came of age with the 1975-debuting reboot. Although Stan refers to the ’60s X-Men comic as “terribly popular,” they were really pretty much at the bottom of the Marvel totem pole, even under Stan and Jack, until the mid-’70s revamp/revival under writers Len Wein and especially Chris Claremont, with artists Dave Cockrum and then John Byrne. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
a while, and fandom today is so strange. Anything they haven’t seen for a while, they begin to glamorize and think it’s that great Golden Age product and project and if they could only see it again…. Somebody could do a great term paper about all this. CALLER: You’re not going to do that with Spidey, are you? LEE: No, no, never with Spidey! Spidey we never stop! [laughter] HEMINGWAY: Thank you for your call. Hey, a guy I liked after reading… LEE: You have the biggest eyes you ever saw, and the lashes I couldn’t begin to describe… HEMINGWAY: I’m a mutant! You know who I liked? I like the guy—is it the Daredevil? The blind guy? LEE: Nobody forgets Daredevil. HEMINGWAY: I’m sorry. LEE: Our super-heroes have strange failings. Daredevil is sightless. When we created Daredevil, we were drunk with power; we
thought we could do anything. I remember years ago, there was a detective character in novels—I think he was called Nero Wolfe, by Rex Stout. If I’m wrong, somebody will phone in and correct me. The stories always grabbed me, and this was way before the show with Tony Franciosa [sic], who played a blind detective. I always said, “Golly, if you can have a blind detective, why can’t you have a blind super-hero?” We came up with Daredevil; he became tremendously successful. In answer to your question… now you’re making some gestures… ? HEMINGWAY: No, I’m just scratching my hand! LEE: You’re scratching your hand? I thought you were making some radio gesture! HEMINGWAY: It is, actually. Barry Barber, my engineer, knows exactly what I’m doing… LEE: “Get rid of him!” HEMINGWAY: “Do anything! Get him off my show!” [both are howling with laughter] LEE: “He’s ruining the show!” Moving right along… HEMINGWAY: Moving right along to Daredevil. LEE: Where were we? HEMINGWAY: Well, he avenged his father’s death. I thought that was kind of nice. LEE: That’s right, that’s right. You’ve gotta avenge your father’s death at all times if you’re going to be a hero. And he has radar sense and sonar senses and he’s a lawyer and involved in politics. I don’t know what he’s been doing lately, because I’ve been travelling
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LEE: Yes. HEMINGWAY: [into phone] KABC, you’re on Talk Radio. CALLER: Hey! HEMINGWAY: Who’s this? CALLER: Paul. HEMINGWAY: Hi, Paul. LEE: What took you so long?
“In The Country Of The Blind…” (Left:) The Jack Kirby/Bill Everett splash page of Marvel’s Daredevil #1 (April 1964) heralded a story scripted by Stan Lee and illustrated primarily by Everett. He was the first truly blind super-hero, although the late-’30s pulp hero The Black Bat (and DC’s Dr. Mid-Nite who imitated him) could not see in daylight and needed special lenses to see in both dark and light. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
around so much, I don’t have time to read the stories, but he’s one of the modern mythological masterpieces created by Marvel Comics.
(Above:) In 1971 TV premiered Longstreet, a series featuring a blind detective and his German shepherd Pax. The star, however, was Jim Franciscus, not Tony Franciosa, as Stan misremembered. Before that, the 1956 film thriller 23 Paces to Baker Street had starred Van Johnson as a blind man who determines to solve a murder. But earlier magazine detective Nero Wolfe wasn’t blind, as Stan seems to think... just overweight and basically lazy. Thanks to Barry Pearl & Nick Caputo. [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
HEMINGWAY: “Modern mythological masterpieces”… He also talks in alliteration! Stan Lee What. Give us a call.
CALLER: I want to ask you a couple of questions about Howard the Duck, one of your new characters. LEE: Oh, yeahhhh… HEMINGWAY: Howard the Duck? LEE: You should see the expression on this child’s face when you said, “Howard the Duck.” You can just imagine… HEMINGWAY: Howard the Duck? LEE: She thinks that you and I conspired for this call…
LEE: …But she’s prettier.
HEMINGWAY: Who is Howard the Duck? He’s a duck and his name is Howard, I take it. What does he do?
[Hemingway reads a radio ad about TWA]
CALLER: He’s a duck.
HEMINGWAY: Talk Radio time is 9:26…
HEMINGWAY: What does Howard the Duck do?
[radio wine ad] HEMINGWAY: I can’t concentrate… you are screaming in my ear, Stan Lee. Your microphone wasn’t even on. There was a review of your book in Calendar [section of the Los Angeles Times]. LEE: I hope they were gentle and kind. HEMINGWAY: You didn’t see it?? LEE: No. HEMINGWAY: Of course, it was written by Ray Bradbury. This was your first one, Origins. LEE: This was Origins from Marvel. HEMINGWAY: He makes comicbooks sound like the new Greek mythology! LEE: Well, he’s very perceptive and deep. It’ll take you a while before you can get into those things. But Ray is one of the true people in the world. HEMINGWAY: One of the true humans.
CALLER: He’s a talking duck and he goes on adventures. LEE: Shall I explain to people not really into Howard the Duck? CALLER: Yes. HEMINGWAY: Yes, please. LEE: There are people out there who are not freaks yet for Howard the Duck. We haven’t reached everybody yet. [laughter] We have a magazine—and you will be thrilled to learn that we have a magazine—called Man-Thing. [speaks slowly and deliberately] I’m speaking clearly and deliberately because I have a cold. It’s called Man-Thing. Now, the idiot who writes it, a good friend named Steve Gerber— one day, when I wasn’t looking, I see he’s got a new character in the series.
Ray Bradbury in 1975. The best-known science-fiction writer, ever… author of The Martian Chronicles, Fahrenheit 451, etc. He was an inveterate enthusiast for comic art generally, though how many Marvel Comics he actually ever read is not known. Not too many, Ye Editor would guess.
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enough. We’re going to try to crazy me up. Help me! You’ve got a good point there. If an idea is crazy enough, people have got to love it! Its sense of humor. It’s almost as though—what? You’re writing me a note? [reading it to herself] Oh, you love me! Isn’t this wonderful? This is like grammar school. Don’t pull my pigtails. No, really. If you come up with an idea that’s nutty enough, and you’ve got the guts to follow it through, people are going to glom onto it. They love crazy people. That’s why they love you, Stan Lee. LEE: We’re doing a motion picture. I figure this is the place to mention it—Los Angeles. HEMINGWAY: Hol-LEE-Wood.
Steve Gerber tossed a fowl-looking E.T. called Howard the Duck into the book-length “Man-Thing” story in Fear #19 (Dec. 1973)—and by cover-date Jan. 1976 he had his own title. The former artwork is by Gil Kane (pencils) and Ernie Chan (inks), and of course doesn’t show the alien avian… while the latter cover is by Frank Brunner. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
It’s a little duck—not too unlike Donald Duck—and I say, “Hey, Steve, baby. What are you doing with a little animated duck in a serious, dramatic story called Man-Thing?” He’s kind of cute, you know? This duck, he’s not really a duck, he’s from a planet where everybody happens to look like a duck.
LEE: Swingin’ Hollywood. It’s Spider-Man. It will be a full-length, live-action movie of Spider-Man, but we’re going to do it crazy. Not like Batman, not campy, we’re going to make a rock musical out of it. CALLER: Animated? LEE: No! Golly, no! Not animated. How else am I supposed to…
HEMINGWAY: I see. LEE: And he comes down to Earth somehow. He speaks and smokes cigars. After a while, I said, “This is the cutest and cleverest comedy bit that has come along in comics. We’ve gotta do a whole book of him.” Well, everybody says I was crazy… HEMINGWAY: …but you’re not. LEE: You can tell that; you’ve known me long enough. We put out this book—and when I say, “we,” I mean the Marvel Comics Group, producers and purveyors of possibly the world’s greatest literature! HEMINGWAY: [laughter] Possibly. LEE: [laughs] You’re wonderful, Carole! Anyway, we put out this book and it has become such a hit. I cannot tell you. I realized Stan Lee has formulated a new law: If anything is crazy enough and different enough, it has to become an incredible hit! See, that’s the problem with you— you’re too lovely and ethereal. We’ve gotta crazy you up a little bit! We still have another half hour to go. HEMINGWAY: I’m not crazy
Rock Solid! (Above left & top right:) Turns out that, although Stan promised it to a caller over Carole Hemingway’s talk-radio show and a 1975 house ad in Marvel Comics plugged it, Spider-Man: Rock Reflections of a Superhero never made it beyond being a record album. (Directly above, right:) It took until 2011 before a Broadway musical starring the wall-crawler—Spider-Man: Turn Off the Dark—opened on the Great White Way. It ran through 2014. Here, Reeve Carney as Spider-Man battles an airborne Green Goblin to save Jennifer Damiano as Mary Jane Watson, while singing “Boy Falls from the Sky,” one of the musical numbers by Bono and The Edge. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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HEMINGWAY: A rock musical of Spider-Man? [talking over each other; unintelligible] LEE: Yeah. HEMINGWAY: Will somebody send me a comicbook of Howard the Duck? LEE: I will, I will! Give me your address! HEMINGWAY: Thanks for your call, Paul. Call me. 870-7263 is our number in Los Angeles, in the Valley, 981-7900. I don’t think anybody in Orange County would call in, but 638-6151. LEE: How does this show make it? HEMINGWAY: It’s a fantastic show! This is Stan the Man Lee… LEE: You do other things with your other guests. HEMINGWAY: Yeah, I do other things, as a matter of fact... Hello, you’re on Talk Radio; who is this?
Strip Maul Howard the Duck would later become a newspaper comic strip, as well, though it would run only a little over a year during 1977-78. This Sunday by writer Steve Gerber and artist Gene Colan appeared on October 16, 1977. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
CALLER: This is Russell. LEE: Hi, Russ. Another competitor… CALLER: Yeah. I just want to say that Howard the Duck is the most profound and provocative character in the Marvel Age of Comics.
it! And Carole is looking at me with those big blue eyes because she has no idea what we’re talking about! But the “Bullpen Bulletin” is written by whoever happens to be in the bullpen at the moment— usually the editor—usually Marv Wolfman. HEMINGWAY: What? CALLER: Yeah. Tell Carole what a “Bullpen Bull…” I can’t even say it.
LEE: I agree.
HEMINGWAY: Please do.
HEMINGWAY: Why? Tell me why!
LEE: I’ll tell Carole what a “Bullpen Bulletin” is. Before Marvel changed the entire course of literary history, your average comicbook was just a group of cold, impersonal stories. All of a sudden, Marvel Comics came on the scene, and we decided—and I’m using the editorial “we decided,” of course…
CALLER: There’s just no other character like him. LEE: There’s a lot of profundity, so unless you’ve read it, that’s like saying, “What’s so great about Elton John and his music?” HEMINGWAY: No, no, no. You can tell me what’s so great and profound about Howard the Duck. LEE: Well, we’ve got a literate guest on the show; let him. CALLER: It’s written by Steve Gerber, the best writer since Stan Lee. LEE: You’re a great man, Russell. CALLER: He’s the most original character that’s come out of comics. He’s dumb and he smokes a cigar. HEMINGWAY: He’s dumb. CALLER: And he smokes a cigar. HEMINGWAY: That is original. CALLER: There’s no character in the world that’s dumb and smokes a cigar.
HEMINGWAY: You decided... We know. LEE: We decided, “Let’s really get to know our readers and the public and let them know us and let’s sort of have a lot of fun with what we’re doing.” So, we initiated a page called the “Bullpen Bulletins,” in which I mentioned what’s going on in the Bullpen, which is our office, the staff of writers and artists: what we’re doing and what we’re trying to do, and how we feel, and who bought a new car, who has the mumps, and what’s going on—who had an allergy attack. HEMINGWAY: You’ll be in the latest “Bullpen Bulletin” then, because of your allergy attack. LEE: Well, I’m always in the Bulletin because I write some of them. You will admit, Russ, that I do a pretty good job of mentioning myself. CALLER: Oh, yes.
HEMINGWAY: He’s a duck who smokes a cigar. There are a lot of people in the world who are dumb and smoke a cigar, but not ducks.
LEE: Once in a while, the name “Stan” will crop up in a “Bullpen Bulletin” page. [laughter]
CALLER: Anyway, I just want to ask Mr. Lee…
CALLER: Every line…
HEMINGWAY: You can call him Stan.
LEE: [laughter] That gives Carole a rough idea. She’s doodling…
CALLER: Thanks! Stan, who writes the “Bullpen Bulletins”?
HEMINGWAY: This is too much for me. Oh! Howard the Duck! Russell, thank you for calling.
LEE: Well, I write the “Soapbox” column that has my name on it and I’m very jealous of my name and I won’t let anybody else touch
LEE: Thank you, Russ.
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HEMINGWAY: Yeah, but how do you think of things like mutants? How do you think of The X-Men? They’re human, but super-human… LEE: I’ll talk to you seriously because I think you’re desperately seeking the truth. HEMINGWAY: I want the truth. LEE: In this difficult workaday world, you’re looking for a path. The way to create original concepts and great science-fiction is you extrapolate; you project. You say to yourself, “Given a certain set of circumstances, what would happen ‘if’?” Then, you’re off and running. You grab that typewriter and say, “What would happen if certain mutants banded together and said, ‘We’re better than humans because we have mutant powers. We’re Homo Superior, which is different from Homo Sapiens, and we should rule the world.’ They become the evil mutants who want to rule the world. Then we give ourselves another mutant group of good guys: “We want to stop these evil guys.” So we have a comicbook. HEMINGWAY: Do you know Erma Bombeck? She’s really a funny lady. LEE: She’s good, too!
Marvel Bullpen Bulletins Although there had been a few so-called “Bullpen Pages” before that had plugged Marvel products, the first true “Marvel Bullpen Bulletins” page, which featured a mix of news items, plugs, a checklist of on-sale titles, and the names of 25 members of the new Merry Marvel Marching Society, appeared in issues dated December 1965. This version from Strange Tales #139 sported images of Dr. Strange, while the otherwise identical Bullpen Bulletins page that month from Tales of Suspense featured Iron Man instead, and so on and so forth. Repro’d from Ye Editor’s bound volumes. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
HEMINGWAY: I don’t know what I would have done with Origins, but Son of Origins… You can buy this for $6.95 if you so choose. LEE: I’ll describe all about it after the show. HEMINGWAY: On that note, we’ll take a break! [musical ad for Lucky’s Supermarket] HEMINGWAY: The time at KBAC-Talk Radio… I don’t know what happened to me. He originated comic characters. Did you ever think, in your lifetime, that you would come across anyone who originated comic characters? Now, I’m going to ask you a question. Are you ready for this, Stan Lee What? How do you make up a comicbook character? LEE: With great difficulty. Actually, no, it’s very simple. It’s easy as hell. Carole, do I say to you, “How do you talk into that microphone?” You’re so glib and articulate and masterful at it. You do it well and that’s why you have this job. I happen to create characters for a living. You’re in the business you’re in because you do things well.
Marvel Rules! Maybe Stan wasn’t kidding when he said that “Homo Superior” (a.k.a. mutants) “should rule the world”! Here’s the cover of a 1979 Brazilian publication, Almanaque Marvel #4, which spotlights The X-Men, though they share space with Daredevil and Spider-Woman. Thanks to Roberto Guedes. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
A 1975 Radio Interview With Stan Lee
HEMINGWAY: Well, not as good as Stan Lee! She does the same sort of thing in a different way, okay? She takes a normal, everyday situation: “Mom, where are my boots?” From there, I remember one thing… I had her on the show in Phoenix… LEE: “I had a show in Phoenix” sounds like a book. HEMINGWAY: It would never make it. LEE: Never make it…
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HEMINGWAY: Hey, man. CALLER: Will there be a third edition to Origins? LEE: Yes, it goes on sale early next year. The problem is, we don’t know what to call it. We have the Son of Origins. Do we call it the Brother-in-Law? I was thinking about naming it after the villains— something like Bring On the Villains. Would you like that title?
CALLER: Oh, yeah! What characters will it contain? HEMINGWAY: Anyway, she said one time she told her son, “You should wear boots.” He said, “Mom! LEE: Doctor Doom, the Red Skull… Nobody wears boots!,” as only a teenage son Erma Bombeck HEMINGWAY: Mag-net-oh… or it is Mag-neet-oh? would say to his mother. Then, he extrapolated— On the other hand, the above lady—a top nobody wearing boots meant businesses going out humor author of the day—was perhaps LEE: Carole, if you want to call it “Mag-net-oh,” of business, children going barefoot—what you do, Carole Hemingway’s candidate for “world versus “Mag-nee-toh,” from now until time is take a situation and make it totally insane! ruler.” She wrote such comedic best-sellers immemorial, that man’s name is “Mag-neet-oh.” as If Life Is a Bowl of Cherries, What Am I [Hemingway laughs; Lee speaks to caller] LEE: She does that and Russell Baker does that Doing in the Pits?; I Lost Everything in the Characters like that… and Art Buchwald. It’s really the basis of good Postnatal Depression; and When You Look humor—Woody Allen does that, if you think about it. Good humor is based on saying, “What is really happening and what would happen if you carried it a step further?”
Like Your Passport Photo, It’s Time to Go Home—all words to live by! [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
HEMINGWAY: People love villains. They do!
LEE: I like the villains. Did I ever tell you about Doctor Doom?
HEMINGWAY: Fantastic. LEE: But, I hope nobody else is listening… HEMINGWAY: Oh, no… nobody listens to this show. [into phone] KABC, you’re on Talk Radio; hi! CALLER: This is Joe in Torrance. I was wondering about the Superman/ Spider-Man book [Superman vs. the Amazing Spider-Man] out now and wondering how it came to be. LEE: You should see the expressions on Carole’s face when all these questions are thrown—the blank looks on her face. Now she’s thinking, “Superman/Spider-Man? What are they talking about?” I’m gonna tell ya. It goes on sale in January. It came to be because somebody came to us with the idea and said, “I know you’ll never do it.” We said, “Of course we’ll do it. If Superman will do it; we’ll do it.” Carole, I want to increase your comicbook knowledge, but you’re really not that bad. It’s the least I can do. [chuckles] Our top competitor is the Superman company, and we are launching a joint publishing effort in which our great character, Spider-Man, is going to be co-featured with their character Superman and it’s called Superman vs. Spider-Man and it’s going to be a milestone in the annals of history! How nice of you to have asked that. HEMINGWAY: You must have a lot of relatives in town! LEE: No! HEMINGWAY: This is Stan Lee What and we shall return. [ad about recycling] HEMINGWAY: The time at Talk Radio is 9:42 [inserts ad for See’s Candies] I’m sitting here talking with this nut, Stan Lee, who originated Iron Man, and I don’t know… We’ll be right back! [ad about Christmas wishes and Master Charge] HEMINGWAY: Carole on KABC. Go ahead, Robert. Robert, hi. What’s going on? CALLER: Nothing.
Mano-a-Mano Even the cover of the 1976 two-company tabloid comicbook Superman vs. The Amazing Spider-Man was a multi-talent collaboration, with DC editorial director Carmine Infantino providing the rough sketch for penciler Ross Andru, with Neal Adams making a few changes to Superman. The inking was by Dick Giordano, assisted by Terry Austin. Though most of these guys (including writer Gerry Conway) were working at the time for DC Comics, Marvel shared total approval of the finished product. [Superman TM & © DC Comics; Spider-Man TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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CALLER: Hi. HEMINGWAY: Who’s this? CALLER: This is Michael…, who’s this? LEE: Hi, Michael. This is Stan Lee What, which is “Whatever Her Name Is” calls me. HEMINGWAY: This is “What’s Her Name,” Michael. Go ahead. CALLER: Yeah, right. I really feel terrible, because I’ve been pronouncing it “Mag-net-oh” wrong for years! LEE: What do I know? It probably is. HEMINGWAY: If I’ve been pronouncing it “Mag-net-oh,” it’s “Mag-net-oh.” That’s it. I don’t care what the originator says!
Bring On The Bad Guys! That, not “Bring On the Villains,” as Stan was toying with on the 1975 talk-radio show, would be the final title of the third Simon & Schuster/ Fireside collection of Marvel stories, when it was released in late ’76. Well, it did have a subtitle: Origins of the Marvel Comics Villains. Both the sketch and the painted cover itself are by John Romita. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
CALLER: Well, I’ve also been pronouncing it “Sub-maREEN-er” for years! LEE: “Sub-MAR-iner”! Don’t
HEMINGWAY: I have a feeling you’re going to. LEE: What’s the guy’s name on the phone? HEMINGWAY: Robert. LEE: Robert, can I tell her about Doctor Doom for a minute?
Doom & Gloom A 1979 pencil drawing of Dr. Victor von Doom, as rendered by his co-creator, Jack Kirby. This illo appeared in the magazine The Jack Kirby Quarterly [#11] some years back. [Dr. Doom TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
CALLER: Yeah. LEE: Doctor Doom is the King of Latveria. When he comes here to take over the world, we can’t arrest him, because he has diplomatic immunity, right? CALLER: Yep. LEE: Also, if you want to take over the world, that’s not against the law. If you’re a litterbug, or you jaywalk, you can be arrested. But, you can walk up to any cop in the world and say, “Hey, Charlie, I wanna take over the world,” there’s nothing he can do to you! So, Doctor Doom goes blindly on his way, taking over the world, and there’s nothing anyone can do. He can’t be thrown in jail. HEMINGWAY: Oh, I like Doctor Doom! LEE: He wears a mask because he’s ugly and nobody knows what he looks like. And Jack Kirby, who used to draw him, once drew a picture of him taking off his mask, and guess whose face was inside? HEMINGWAY: Stan Lee. LEE: Stan Lee What. HEMINGWAY: Thank you for your call, Robert. LEE: Thanks, Robert! HEMINGWAY: KABC-Talk Radio; you’re on the air.
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ever say “Sub-ma-REEN-er”! Michael , you’re a terrible person! CALLER: I’m so sorry! That’s okay. You’re going back to New York and we’ll have the entire continent between us. It won’t affect you too much. LEE: [laughter] I’m never leaving, now that I’ve met Carole. HEMINGWAY: We’re going to live in the Mercedes. LEE: And we’re going to do a talk show together called “The Stan Lee and What’s Her Name Show.” CALLER: I think it must be interesting to think how much effect you’ve had on so many people’s lives. There have been so many people you’ve influenced, like Sharon the Mortician’s daughter in My Life. I read a lot of comics as a kid, and I think reading comics enabled me to grow up to be the very sane, stable person I am today. HEMINGWAY: Yes, Michael. You are a very stane and… oops, “stane and sable” person! LEE: The trouble with her is she’s not a believer, and with all you intelligent, articulate, wonderful people… HEMINGWAY: You can tell that Michael is not sane and stable.
A Prince Of A Fellow A fabulous color drawing done by Sub-Mariner creator/writer/artist Bill Everett for his son Rob, nearly half a century ago. (Bill passed away in 1973.) Michael T. Gilbert found it for sale in the online files of Heritage Comics. Stan and “Wild Bill” teamed up on a number of Prince Namor adventures in the latter 1960s. A/E’s editor blushingly admits that, until he was in his early 20s, he always pronounced the hero’s name as “Sub-MaREEN-er.” [Sub-Mariner TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.; other art © Estate of Bill Everett.]
LEE: If you only sounded like Michael. I’m sure you’re prettier than Michael… CALLER: I resemble that remark. LEE: I’m sure you are pretty, Michael. HEMINGWAY: Listen, Michael… CALLER: You get your words mixed up and I’m not sane and stable? HEMINGWAY: [laughter] Wait a second, Michael. Michael! LEE: Consider yourself no-prized.
X-Men: The Unlikely Saga Of Xavier, Magneto, And Stan In 2006 Stan scripted a new story in which he encountered the leaders of the “good” and “evil” mutants, for an otherwise reprint-laden digest-size book with the above unlikely title. By that date, it had been over forty years since Lee and Kirby had introduced both Prof. X’s little crew and Magneto in 1963’s The X-Men #1. Cover painting by Brandon Peterson. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
CALLER: Oh, my God! HEMINGWAY: I’m glad that Marvel Comics has made you a sane, sober, and stable member of the US of A, Michael. LEE: He’s also a member of the U.S. Senate, but he’s not telling you that.
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CALLER: No, pay attention! LEE: Steve started it, didn’t he? CALLER: He did? LEE: Yeah, you may have seen one of the subsequent ones, but I believe Steve started it. I may be wrong. Anyway, I thought it was kind of good. HEMINGWAY: But it wasn’t Marvel Comics… LEE: I really shouldn’t interrupt you when you’re saying nice things about me, Carole. It was done by who?
Sew What’s New? Many of the “problems” Stan would sometimes reel off to interviewers as belonging to Peter Parker even though he was secretly Spider-Man were never really evidenced in the comics (e.g., acne)… but Peter’s having to personally repair his costume with needle and thread did occur, in Amazing Spider-Man #4 (Sept. 1963)… after his face-mask had gotten badly torn in his first tussle with The Sandman. Script by Stan Lee; art by Steve Ditko. Seems to us that one of the great, never-related tales of the wall-crawler would be the one wherein he first designed and sewed his costume, at the same time taking a few spare minutes to invent his spectacular web-shooters! Thanks to Barry Pearl & Nick Caputo. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
CALLER: The reason it’s done that is because they were the first company to try for a humanistic character in comicbooks. It was an admirable thing; they were taking a chance. HEMINGWAY: You’re talking about that characters had to deal with everyday events, like paying rent? CALLER: Exactly. One of the things that I used to love was whenever Spider-Man would fight a super-villain, he’d have to go home and sew up his costume. LEE: It always got torn. HEMINGWAY: He’d have to sew them himself? LEE: Yeah, and he didn’t do a very good job, so you can imagine what it would look like in the next story. I have to tell you, seeing Carole put down these books, I wish you could see what she is doodling while we’re talking. I wanna tell you. HEMINGWAY: I’ve got “Howard the Duck,” “Doctor Doom,” “five foot ten,” and “57 years” written down here. LEE: You like Howard the Duck, Michael? CALLER: Very much. LEE: How do you feel about The Silver Surfer? CALLER: The Silver Surfer, when he had his own magazine, was one of my favorite characters. Not realistic and a little more heavy-duty, moralistic… LEE: You’re right. CALLER: I’d like to ask you about one of your competition’s characters. HEMINGWAY: Yeah, yeah, let’s talk about the competition… CALLER: There was one comic put out by Charlton Comics called E-Man. LEE: Oh, by Steve Ditko; I’m a big fan of Steve Ditko. CALLER: It wasn’t by Ditko. LEE: Yes, it was!
CALLER: It was done by Nicola Cuti and Joe Staton. They had some really nice bits of humor. LEE: We never claim that Marvel does the only good stories, just most of them. HEMINGWAY: Michael, thank you for calling. I’ll let you go. LEE: Thanks, Mike. HEMINGWAY: I told you nobody in Orange County reads comics. Nobody’s called on that line out there because they’re all stane and sable out there. Hello, caller. You’re on the air. CALLER: Hello. This is Kevin. LEE: Hi, Kev. CALLER: I’d like to ask Stan a few questions. What did you think about [unintelligible] LEE: It thought it was pretty good. CALLER: I liked it myself. It was one of my favorite Marvel Comics. HEMINGWAY: What else, Kevin? CALLER: Anyway, I draw cartoons myself. How do you get your work presented to a company? LEE: The best thing, Kev, is to take one of the company’s characters. I assume it would be a Marvel character. HEMINGWAY: That’s the goal of every stane and sable person… LEE: Take one like Iron Man, Daredevil, The X-Men, Conan the Barbarian… You do a couple of sample pages in pencil. Make up your own situation, your own drawings, and don’t bother putting in dialogue. Do a few panels, and shoot them in, address
Hey, Man, It’s E-Man! Frankly, Ye Editor admits to being startled at learning that Stan Lee had ever even heard of E-Man, the clever super-hero comicbook created by writer Nick Cuti and artist Joe Staton—let alone that he believed it was the concoction of Steve Ditko! But Stan was right about the ingenious nature of that series over the years, first at Charlton (as per this first-issue cover from Oct. 1973), later at other companies. [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
A 1975 Radio Interview With Stan Lee
them to John Romita, our editor. If he thinks you’ve got the stuff, you’ll hear from him. HEMINGWAY: Really? LEE: Yeah, even if thinks you don’t have the stuff, you’ll hear from him. HEMINGWAY: You really do that? Have you ever used some of these people? LEE: Yeah, it happens. We’ve picked up a few rather good artists. Barry Smith just sent some stuff over the transom and we found him. You don’t know Barry Smith, but the Congressman guy knows him. HEMINGWAY: Wow. So that’s the way you do it. When you get rich and famous, you have to still call the show. Thanks for calling! [into phone] KABC, you’re on the air. CALLER: Hi, Carole. Hi, Stan. My favorite superhero is The Silver Surfer. LEE: I was telling Carole that. CALLER: Whatever happened to him? LEE: What happened: After a while, I wasn’t able to write him anymore because I was involved in saving the world and the UN, and all that. I loved the character so much, I couldn’t bear having someone else write The Silver Surfer, so we put him in limbo. Whenever I get a chance, I’m going to do him in book form and get someone like Simon & Schuster to publish it and sell it for more money than anyone can afford and it’ll be a coffeetable book.
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heavy and preachy and moralistic all the time. HEMINGWAY: Bor-ring! Bor-ring! LEE: Yeah. You can tell, after two minutes, forget it! It’s over. CALLER: What’s with the truss on Silver Surfer? LEE: Oh, the truss! After a while we looked at him and realized, “Son of a gun, this guy’s naked!” Then, we drew the truss and said, “Oh, my gosh, this looks like an idiot again!” So we drew him naked again. CALLER: Thanks! Bye! HEMINGWAY: [into phone] Hello, caller. Who is this? JACK KIRBY: Hello, this is Jack from Thousand Oaks. I was just wondering how I could send some samples in from this area... LEE: Hey, wait a minute... [to Hemingway] You know who “Jack from Thousand Oaks” is? [over phone] Incidentally Jack, I phoned you earlier tonight, you were out... KIRBY: I know, I know! LEE: Why weren’t you at the drawing board? [to Hemingway] This guy on the phone right now is one of the greatest artists in the whole world! This is Jack Kirby, who does most of our top strips, and who started most of the characters with me. Of course, we’re
HEMINGWAY: Michael said he got tired of The Silver Surfer because it became kind of heavy, and I guess he meant kind of preachy and moralistic, I think he said. Is that because it reflected your own life at that time? LEE: Yeah, I was
Barry Smith (now Barry Windsor-Smith)—next to some of his very earliest work for Marvel, an action page from The X-Men #53 (Feb. 1969) inked by Mike Esposito, and his final splash page for Conan the Barbarian (#24, March ’73), only four years later, as autographed by the young Brit and Roy. Not bad progress for a guy whose work, as Stan relates, basically came in “over the transom,” huh? Scripters were, respectively, Arnold Drake and Roy Thomas. Thanks to Brian Kane for the CTB scan. [X-Men page TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.; Conan page TM & © Conan Properties International LLC.]
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Conducted On-Air By Carole Hemingway
Stan Lee & Jack Kirby (left to right) in a photo taken at the MiamiCon in December 1975, at a time when Kirby had returned to Marvel and all seemed well with the world. That, of course, is also the period during which the Carole Hemingway interview took place. Thanks to James Van Hise and John Cimino. At right is a page from the heights of the days of Lee-Kirby collaboration: Fantastic Four #56 (Nov. 1966), as inked by Joltin’ Joe Sinnott. On it, the besieged F.F. prepare to fight back against Klaw, Master of Sound, who has invaded the Baxter Building. ’Way too much dialogue, of course—and yet, by means of all those word balloons, Stan turned Jack’s splendid several-panel sequence of Reed Richards arming the Thing in a hastily concocted Counter-Sonic Harness into a real triumph. When he first proofread it at his desk in ’66, youngster Roy T. laughed out loud at the combined art and dialogue in panel 4. For Ye Ed, it never got any better than this—not even in the Galactus Trilogy. Thanks to Barry Pearl for the scan. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
talking about you to the wrong one... I could [tell Carole] you’re Michelangelo, and she’d say, “Mike who?”... I mean, culture she’s not dripping with. But anyway, it’s good to hear from ya! What are you doing listening to this nothing show? KIRBY: I’ve been drawing comics at a bar mitzvah here. LEE: I’ll be darned. Listen, I’m gonna be in San Francisco tomorrow. I’ll call you. Tomorrow night. It’ll be cheaper to call you from there. KIRBY: That would be fine. HEMINGWAY: Do you guys have anything else you’d like to say? While everybody’s listening... KIRBY: This has been a wonderful show really. I’ve been listening and... HEMINGWAY: Jack, you’ve got to be kidding. This has been probably one of my worst shows. KIRBY: Oh no, it’s just been great, because, well, because being in comics myself... LEE: “...being in comics”? He’s practically the whole comics business! KIRBY: Stanley’s covered a lot of details, and they’ve been extremely interesting, really.
HEMINGWAY: Thank you for your call. Bye-bye. LEE: Talk to ya later, Jack. KIRBY: So long! HEMINGWAY: That’s Jack from Thousand Oaks. LEE: You know, seriously... your listeners are gonna say, “My God, was that Jack Kirby? “You don’t know who you were talking to!? I’ve gotta spend hours with you later and tell you all about it. HEMINGWAY: In the Mercedes… I cannot believe… LEE: Hugh Hefner’s. Wait until Jack finds out. Hugh Hefner is probably listening and is going to call in and say, “Get that guy away from it!” HEMINGWAY: Jack, did you hear this? This is Stan Lee. The book is a paperback, a rather flimsy thing. LEE: Thanks a lot. HEMINGWAY: It’s called Son of Origins…
HEMINGWAY: Jack, you sound like a rather “stane and sable person.”
LEE: We’re giving it away later.
KIRBY: Well, I’ll buy that testimonial.
HEMINGWAY: Oh, my God, I would keep you on, but I can’t take anymore.
LEE: Jack, next time, call sooner and save me, will ya? KIRBY: Yeah, gee, I tried to get through and we all, you know… LEE: It was tough borrowing a dime way up there in Thousand Oaks!
LEE: I’ll tell you the whole history of the comicbook magazine. HEMINGWAY: You can tell me while we’re driving. [End of transcription; basically end of show]
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A Few Of Those Who Worked For & With Him Remember STAN LEE
A/E
Assembled by Roy Thomas
EDITOR’S INTRODUCTION: Because another issue of Alter Ego (#150, to be exact) was dedicated to Stan Lee in conjunction with his 95th birthday, just under two years ago, I felt freer than I otherwise might have in setting up the precise contents for this one, which will be on sale nearly one year after his passing on November 12, 2018. I invited a handful of key people who worked editorially for Marvel Comics in New York City when Stan was on the scene as editor and/or publisher to share their thoughts about working with him. I realize I could have approached any number more, and perhaps I should have. Maybe some of those folks will share their thoughts with us for a future issue. The first tribute-payers below are three of the surviving gents who served under publisher Stan as his editor-in-chief, presented in the order in which they served: myself, Marv Wolfman, and Jim Shooter. Two others, Len Wein and Archie Goodwin, sadly, have left us—and Gerry Conway, who served for a few weeks in early 1976, sent his apologies but did not at present feel up to putting his thoughts on paper. Others accepting our invitation were Tony Isabella, who came on staff in the early 1970s; David Anthony Kraft, who signed on a year or so later; and Steve Englehart, only briefly a staffer but another of Marvel’s top writers of the 1970s. Here are their thoughts, in roughly the order in which they were piped aboard, beginning with myself, because I came to work for Stan in July of 1965 and served as the company-wide editor (Stan and I agreed on the hyphenated title “editor-in-chief”) from 1972 to 1974… a period of a few months over two years….
A Trio Of Tributes by Roy Thomas Because I’ve written at length about Stan in many places, including in Alter Ego #150 and in the sizable Taschen book The Stan Lee Story (not to mention in 2014’s 75 Years of Marvel: From the Golden Age to the Silver Screen), I’ve decided to mostly limit my thoughts to those related to my final face-to-face meeting with him—on November 10, 2018—as it would turn out, less than two days before he passed away. First, though, I thought I’d reprint the few paragraphs I wrote in 2017 as an “Afterword” for the first, 1200-copy edition (counting 200 “artist’s proofs”) of The Stan Lee Story, which by sheer coincidence would go on sale at bookstores around the time of Stan’s death. That page would be replaced in the general edition of the book (published in July 2019) by a truncated account of our final encounter. Here is my original “Afterword,” by courtesy of copyright-holder Taschen: Stan Lee is a whirlwind I first encountered in the pages of Marvel Comics in 1961… then in person four years later. Ever since the latter day, he has been a dominant presence in my life, whether I was employed by Marvel at the time or not. For the next several years after 1965, he was for me a one-man course of instruction on the way to write—and to edit—thrilling yet humanized comicbook heroes.
Beyond “Bullpen Bulletins” The cover of the New York Daily News for Nov. 13, 2018, the day after Stan Lee’s passing. With thanks to Michael T. Gilbert. [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
Until I met him, I’d had other comics writers and editors after whom I might have patterned myself; but standing on his right hand, morning after weekday morning for years, mostly swept those other influences away, much like those rivers that Hercules channeled through the Augean stables. For here, I quickly realized, was a man who was very clearly in command of what he was doing as both writer and editor… and who knew how to get the best, the very best, out of writers and artists (and other editors) alike. This book, as was surely apparent long before you reached this page, is not and never was intended to be a biography. It is, rather, the story of one man’s—of Stan the Man’s—journey through the vine-encrusted jungles of 20th- and 21st-century popular culture, both reacting to what had come before and greatly influencing what has come after. In harness with some of the finest action and humor artists ever to wander into the mad, mad world of comicbooks, and working from his own personal and commercial instincts, only rarely with a preconceived road map, he charted a course that has been a pathway for all who have come since, whether they know it or not. (And mostly they do.) Working with and for him, in one capacity or another, for much of the past 50-plus years has been a privilege and good fortune of which a boy in the trans-Mississippi Midwest could scarcely have dreamed when first reading the four-color exploits of Captain America, the Human Torch, and the Sub-Mariner in the latter 1940s. Once, when it had abruptly occurred to him that there was an 18-year age gap between the two of us, Stan squinted at me and said, “You know, I could have been your father!” In many ways, Stan… you damn near were. My manager/pal John Cimino gave his POV of the events of November 10, 2018, in this issue’s guest editorial on pp. 93-94 of this issue. Here is my own, an expansion of the necessarily brief remarks that appear in the “Afterword” of the general edition of The Stan Lee Story. Both versions are based on notes I wrote on November 12th of last year— the day after I’d flown back from L.A. to South Carolina and the very morning I learned of Stan’s passing:
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Marvel Staffers Remember Stan Lee
Man & Boy (Above:) Stan (The Man) Lee and Roy (The Boy) Thomas smile for John Cimino’s camera/phone on the afternoon of November 10, 2018, at Stan’s Hollywood Hills home. (Right:) One of a handful of times Stan and Roy appeared together in the pages of Marvel comics was the humorous 3-page backup done for the 1968 Amazing Spider-Man Annual, at the end of which Roy arrives (clad in his vintage Nehru jacket) carrying his fat, finished synopsis for the latest issue of The Avengers—barely two seconds after Stan and artists John Romita and Larry Lieber (the latter in glasses) have come up with the identical plot for an issue of Spidey! A caption on the splash panel says there were “No credits for this one ’cause nobody will take the blame”—but it seems fairly certain Stan wrote the script, while Larry penciled (working closely with John) and Mike Esposito inked. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
I was fortunate enough to be able to talk briefly to Stan by phone a few times in his last year or so. One time was arranged with Keya Morgan, his then-“handler,” whom I’d dealt with for the past couple of years on other matters and with whom Dann and I had once had lunch. That phone call occurred soon after Stan returned from his trip to China in December 2017. I recall Stan mentioning how impressed he was with Hong Kong, in particular. He gushed, “I’ve always loved New York with all its skyscrapers, but you could put all of New York in one tiny corner of Hong Kong.” I told him I’d seen the online photo of him at the Great Wall of China, and he got a kick out of the idea of people seeing that picture. Around that same time, Keya and I were discussing my flying out to see Stan, which Keya said he thought would be good for Stan. I told him I was willing to fly cross-country, even though I knew the meeting would necessarily be brief so as not to tire Stan, and even though I knew that there was a fair chance that I’d arrive and Stan wouldn’t feel up to seeing me at all. However, soon afterward, the situation changed suddenly and Keya was out, and I kind of gave up on the idea that I’d get to see Stan again.
Not too long afterward, Michael Kelly, Stan’s conscientious and hard-working assistant, who by now served as the de facto editor of the Spider-Man strip I was ghosting, arranged for Stan and me to talk by phone another time. I believe that’s the occasion on which he and I discussed what a phenomenon the Black Panther film had become. Stan asked why I thought the character had suddenly become so big, when we’d never been able to make him that big a deal at Marvel. I told him what he probably already knew: that the time just hadn’t been right
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No Rest For The Wicked (Above:) The 1968 Avengers Annual featured a humorous backup scripted by Roy, penciled by John Buscema, and inked by Frank Giacoia whose ending basically turned the tables on Roy-the-Boy Wonder, who at the time sported an ill-considered goatee. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.] (Right:) A very fuzzy screen capture (and title card) from the episode of Stan’s 1976 cable-TV show Stan Lee’s Soapbox on which Roy guested, not long before he split for L.A. The show, alas, had such a poor range that Roy had to leave his apartment on East 86th Street in Manhattan and go ten or twenty blocks south to his girlfriend’s place in order to see it! Thanks to Jon Cornell, in whose studio it had been filmed. [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
before. Still, he was happy that T’Challa was making waves after all these years. Back on pages 2 & 3, John Cimino outlined how, through the good offices of Desert Wind dealer Chandler Rice, and those of Stan’s then-current companion Jon Bolerjack in Los Angeles, he and I finally made it all the way across the country (from Boston and South Carolina, respectively) just for the chance to see him, even just for a few minutes. Dann had encouraged me to go, and had made the airline arrangements, something I’m terrible at. On the way to Stan’s in the car with Chandler Rice and his associate Jason, I told John I was a bit nervous about precisely what to say to Stan. John quipped, “Don’t worry, Roy. He doesn’t have the power to fire you anymore.” We laughed at that—but actually, he still did have that ability, since I was ghost-writing the Spider-Man newspaper comic strip for him, as I’d been doing since 2000.
At around 3:00 p.m., John and I were greeted at Stan’s gate by Jon B. and a fit-looking young man who I assumed was there to help with any heavy lifting that was needed. With John hanging back, Jon B. escorted me in to see Stan, who was sitting dressed casually (but nattily) in a big stuffed chair, his trademark sunglasses firmly in place. He sat facing a gigantic picture window, with a swimming pool and patio directly outside. After a slightly weaker than usual but still jaunty “Hiya Roy,” he went on: “You know, this trying to live to be 100 isn’t turning out to be nearly as much fun as I’d hoped it would be.” I figured he might’ve greeted one or two others with that joke, but I appreciated it just the same.
With This Ring I Thee Web! One of the 6500-plus Spider-Man comic strips that Roy T. wrote for (and often with) Stan, this one for March 13, 2015… it’s basically a gag in between adventures. Pencils by Larry Lieber, inks by Alex Saviuk. It was great when many newspapers began carrying daily strips in color. By this time, the strip was basically the only place in our dimension in which Peter and MJ were still married. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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I told him he was looking fine—and, given what I knew of the fragile state of his health recently, that wasn’t too far off the mark. I gave him greetings from Dann. He asked how she was, and how our “farm” and all the animals on it were. I told him everything was going fine. I mentioned how amusing I found it that I’d be sitting in a tiny audience in Columbia, South Carolina, watching a Marvel movie (I usually go to matinees to avoid crowds) when suddenly that film’s “Stan Lee cameo” would come on, and there would almost always be someone even in that tiny audience who would laugh and/or start applauding. He said he wouldn’t mind doing more of them, if they could find a way for him to do them without his having to sit in a chair for hours having makeup applied.
Marvel Staffers Remember Stan Lee
Benedikt Taschen had come to see him a week earlier with a slightly smaller mockup of the book and had pointed out that very spread, saying it was from a time “when our two countries were fighting each other.” Stan says he’d immediately responded, “Yeah, and we beat your asses, too!” But it had been a good-natured exchange. That war was almost a lifetime away for Stan, and Benedikt Taschen had been born some years after it ended.
“Merry Marty Goodman”? This oft-reproduced photo of original Timely/ Marvel publisher Martin Goodman was taken in 1941, as he was scanning a proof of the cover of Captain America Comics #11, the first issue produced after Joe Simon and Jack Kirby had jumped ship for DC. By the later years of both men’s lives, Goodman and Lee had no kind words for each other, though they were related—twice over—by marriage.
After a minute or two, somehow the subject of Martin Goodman came up. Stan got a bit agitated, talking about how his publisher/uncle hadn’t liked the idea of Spider-Man, saying that people didn’t like spiders… how Goodman had thought that only adults, not teenagers, could be heroes… and how opposed Goodman had been to the idea of super-heroes having personal problems, which he didn’t think would interest people. I expressed the thought that perhaps the last big creative decision Martin Goodman ever made was commissioning Stan to make up a new super-hero group in 1961, and then getting out of the way. Stan kind of liked that. He abruptly spoke of how he couldn’t understand why the hell the original Spider-Man movie people hadn’t ever had Mary Jane say the phrase “Face it, tiger… you just hit the jackpot!” He was quite forceful about his feelings on that one. I concurred, because I’d had the same thoughts when watching the first film—although we agreed it was pretty good otherwise.
or wholly real.
I told him I appreciated the fact that the only change he asked for in the book’s text was for us to treat “comicbook” as one word—something I’d always been inclined to do, too. He repeated his preference for seeing it spelled that way. When Stan was told that the price for that 1000-for-sale copies of this special edition would be $1500 per, I could almost see his eyes widen behind those dark glasses. “Who the hell’s gonna buy it?” he asked with a shock that might have been partly feigned,
At about this point, I realized he was beginning to get tired. Jon B. ushered Bob Sabouni off first, so Stan and I could say a few more words. Then Jon brought in John Cimino, whom I introduced as my manager and friend. Stan grasped John’s hand earnestly and said, with all seriousness, “Take care of my boy Roy.” John and I both choked up at that, having no idea of what to say in response. With Stan’s and Jon’s permission, John took a couple of photos of Stan and me—then Jon B. snapped one of the three of us. After which John and I said our goodbyes and departed. Stan’s final words to us were, “God bless.”
He asked me how the Spider-Man strip was coming along, and I said fine. I mentioned that recently I had had Aunt May and The Mole Man almost get married, but that didn’t seem to particularly register with him. So I didn’t explain further; it didn’t matter. At this point, apparently by a prearrangement I knew nothing about, POW! Entertainment exec Bob Sabouni (from Stan’s company) dropped by, carrying what was the first true hot-off-the-presses copy of Taschen’s The Stan Lee Story, which I had written after Stan himself had recommended me for the job (back in 2013!). Because the huge book weighed fifteen pounds or more, Jon B. put a pillow on Stan’s lap so its edges wouldn’t bite into his legs, and Bob gave us a brief guided tour of it… even though we both knew that Stan’s macular degeneration didn’t allow him to see much of it that clearly. The book fell open to a double-page spread from the World War II years of Stan’s character The Destroyer battling a bunch of German soldiers. Stan related to us that Taschen publisher
Presenting—The Stan Lee Story! (Left:) Bob Sabouni, a major exec at Stan Lee & Gill Champion’s company POW! Entertainment. (Above:) German publisher Benedikt Taschen shows Stan a smaller, mockup version of The Stan Lee Story ten days before the latter’s death.
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Always Leave ’Em Laughing! Roy and Stan share a laugh just prior to RT’s departure on November 10, 2018. Seen in the background is Jon Bolerjack, Stan’s attentive caregiver and “handler” during the last few months of his life. Photo taken by John Cimino.
As we were about to get into Chandler’s car outside, Stan’s daughter J.C. drove up. We hadn’t seen each other in some years, and never really knew one another well, but we exchanged effusive greetings and I reminded her how around 1970 Stan had given my first wife and me the adorable little poodle, Samantha, that a younger J.C. had formerly carried around in her big handbag, even bringing her into the Marvel offices on occasion. Then it was time to go. A few hours later, I was on a big jet headed back to the Carolinas. And, sadly, less than 48 hours after our brief visit, Stan passed away. I was both surprised… and not surprised. I had half expected him to go ever since his wife Joan had passed away the previous year… but I could also have easily visualized his summoning up the strength (had he wanted to) to go on for several years more. I’m eternally grateful to John Cimino and Chandler Rice for their help in setting up that flying trip… and to Jon Bolerjack for being open to, even enthusiastic about it. It meant even more to me than you can imagine. A couple of months later, on January 30, 2019, Stan’s company POW! Entertainment joined forces with movie director (and Stan chum) Kevin Smith and others to host a memorial event titled “Excelsior!”at the TCL Chinese Theatre in Hollywood, where so many of Marvel’s recent string of hit films had played… and where, a few years earlier, Stan had had his handprints immortalized in cement. I couldn’t attend, but at their invitation (and arranged in part by Michael Uslan), Dann filmed me saying the few words I would have spoken, had I been there:
Stan Lee Memorial Remarks Hi, Stan. This is my chance to thank you for all that you’ve meant to my life these past fifty-plus years. First, as a reader back in 1961, you changed my view of what a comicbook could be, when you and Jack Kirby assaulted my senses with the very first issue of The Fantastic Four. Then, four years later, you hired me to be your assistant, your protégé, your… whatever. I was happy to go along for the ride, and I’ve never regretted making that decision. I’ve never forgotten that morning after the big power blackout on the East Coast in November of ’65. Denny O’Neil and I stumbled into the Marvel office after an evening of just sitting around in a restaurant… in the dark. You came in with most of an issue of Daredevil written. You and Joan had set up what you called a “candle brigade” at your house, and you had two-finger-typed out page after page of top-notch dialogue… and then you apologized to production manager Sol Brodsky because you hadn’t been able to write even more. That’s when I knew I was working for the right guy. You never let anything stop you. So thanks, Stan, for that bright July day when, maybe 15 minutes after we met, you stared out the window, down at the models strolling by on Madison Avenue, and you asked the question that changed my life forever: “So… what do we have to do to hire you away from National?” [Tributes continue on p. 120, after intervening photo & art pages.]
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Making Book On It! (Above:) Stan and Roy pose on December 5, 2014, with a copy of their previous joint project, the equally massive tome 75 Years of Marvel: From the Golden Age to the Silver Screen, in a room in Taschen’s Beverly Hills bookstore. Photo by Josh Baker. (Left:) In 1967 Jack Kirby penciled and scripted a short humorous feature for that year’s Fantastic Four Annual whose splash page spotlights himself, Stan, and “Rascally Roy Thomas, Muscle of the Midwest.” Inks by Frank Giacoia. It was Roy’s favorite of his various “cameos” in the pages of Marvel Comics—and yes, it ranks above “Houseroy” at DC as well. Thanks to Jim Kealy for the scan (below) of Houseroy and Funky Flashman from Mister Miracle #6 (Jan.-Feb. 1972); art & script by Jack Kirby; inks by Mike Royer. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. & DC Comics, respectively.]
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Spontaneous Tributes Robert Menzies of the UK sent us these tributes to Stan that sprang up soon after his passing. (From top to bottom:) Hard to see them here, but there are hundreds of messages to Stan on this page put together at a Tokyo comics convention… a Stan Lee mural at The Man’s old high school, DeWitt Clinton High, painted by Delania Alma, and sent by Nyla White, a junior there… a wall in the Gorbals, an area of Glasgow, Scotland (Robert says: “I love my city! My grandparents were married in the Gorbals.”).
Stan & Robert Menzies at the London Film and Comic Con 2014— Stan’s last European con.
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Cartoons For A Comicbook Man (Clockwise from top left:) a cartoon by Brazil’s Marco Tulio Vilela—an editorial cartoon done Nov. 12, 2018, by Marshall Ramsey—and an Israeli tribute magazine. Thanks respectively to Art Lortie, Dan Hagen, and Robert Menzies. [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
Spelling Stan A 1978 memo from Stan re the spelling he’d like for “comicbook” and “superhero” in the pages of Marvel Comics. This was posted by Herb Trimpe’s daughter Sara. Thanks also to John Cimino.
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[Art TM ^& © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Tributes To A Titan
Barry Pearl No stranger to these pages, Barry composed this montage of scenes of grief from the pages of Marvel Comics to represent his feelings at the passing of Stan Lee. We thank Barry for sharing this piece with us. Barry would also like to share one Stan anecdote that he’s held off telling for years: “I was at the New York Comic Con in 2008. I attended a panel on Timely and Marvel that featured Stan Lee, Joe Simon, Dick Ayers, Gene Colan, and a few others. At the end I went up to Dick Ayers, with whom I was friends. I wanted to get an autograph from Stan on his 1947 book Secrets behind the Comics. Little did I know that Dick had brought an edition of the very same book and was also trying to get an autograph from Stan! “Joe Simon had been sitting next to Dick. As I approached, Stan grabbed Joe Simon and gave him a big hug and whispered in his ear, ‘I never had the chance to thank you. You taught me so much, and I have used what you taught me throughout my entire career.’ “I wrote that down immediately because I didn’t want to forget it. I knew Stan intended it to be a whisper, but with both men near ninety years of age and their hearing diminishing, whispering can get quite loud! Stan was then mobbed and then whisked away by his handlers, so Dick and I never got the autographs!” But you got something far more valuable, Barry—a tale of two giants of the comics field, together for a passing moment—legends who had probably not had a chance to speak to each other in many years.
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[Continued from p. 115]
Marv Wolfman was the first person after myself to hold the title of editor-in-chief of both Marvel’s color and black-&-white comics, which he did for much of 1975 through early 1976. In 1974, after I stepped down from that position, Stan decided to name Marv “executive editor” of Marvel’s black-&-white comic magazines, of which he had already been officially the associate editor and unofficially the functioning editor… and his colleague/friend Len Wein the “executive editor” of Marvel’s color comics line. Len, sadly, passed away in 2017. At the time he wrote the comments below, Marv was basically sidelined by an injury to his head due to a fall at his L.A. home, but he very much wanted (and deserved) to be a part of this issue: I was a Stan Lee fan long before I met him, let alone worked as an editor, then editor-in-chief under him. Indeed, it is very likely that once I became a teenager, without him, I, as well as thousands of other fans, would have stopped reading comics altogether. Back then the books were written and drawn for eight-totwelve-year-olds and were no longer relevant to teens about to enter high school. The common wisdom was kids would read comics for about five years, then grow out of them, only to be replaced by a new crop of pre-teens. But Stan’s comics, created in partnership with so many brilliant artists, were written and drawn for older, high school and even college students. But I don’t want to talk about Stan the writer. Everyone reading this has his or her own opinions of the early Marvel comics, and my fannish opinion holds no more weight than anyone else’s. I want to briefly talk about working directly with Stan, something only a handful of us experienced. Story one: Roy Thomas had hired me as an associate editor and I showed my thanks by almost getting fired less than a week later.
Marv Wolfman at the San Diego Comic-Con, 1982—and the splash page of Marvel’s GiantSize Chillers Featuring Curse of Dracula #1 (June 1974), with art by Marv’s longtime Tomb of Dracula collaborators par excellence, penciler Gene Colan & inker Tom Palmer. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
I was writing for Marvel as well as acting as an associate editor when I was asked to proofread one of the comics I had actually written. A different assistant editor proofread my script while I went over the art. And I wasn’t happy with what I saw. Whoever inked the pages didn’t bother to ink most of the backgrounds the penciler had carefully and beautifully drawn. I went full-tilt Tasmanian Devil and complained to anyone who would listen and to even more who wouldn’t. That evening, at home, I got a call saying Stan wanted to see me first thing in the morning. Gulp!
take care of it. In a few calm words he explained how things worked and sent me back to my desk to continue my job.
Nervous, I went into Stan’s office. The inker was there, too. He had heard I was bad-mouthing him and wanted me gone. I told Stan about the missing backgrounds. Stan asked the artist if it was true. He said no.
Story two: (Please note I was not personally involved with this.) One evening, a bunch of writer, artists, and editors were goofing off, as they usually did at the end of a day, by pretendwrestling in the Marvel editorial offices. One of the participants tumbled ass-over-teakettle out of the office and into the hallway just as Stan was coming. Stan saw the “wrestler” skid into the wall and lie there. Stan calmly stepped over him and said, “Keep it up, men.” And continued walking down the hall, as if turning the Marvel offices into a Worldwide Wrestling Entertainment fighting ring was an everyday event. Because of Stan, the offices were fun to hang out at and why everyone loved working at Marvel. No serious corporate environment here.
Please note that this inker had worked at Marvel for years and was a personal friend of Stan’s. I was an easily replaceable kid Stan had never talked to before. But I had brought Xerox copies of the pencils and showed them to Stan, with backgrounds included. He looked them over, called in the head of production, and told him to have someone add back the backgrounds. He turned to me and said next time show them to production and they would
For causing trouble like that, especially to a friend of the boss, anyone else would probably have fired me. But Stan was not interested in pointing blame at me or the inker or anyone else. He was only interested in making sure that the books were the best they could be. Deal with the problem, he indicated by example, but there was never any reason to make it personal. Valuable life lesson in all situations.
Unlike most execs, Stan always kept his office door open. If you needed to speak to him, you could tell if he was in or out. And
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The Man Called Nova The first three words of the above heading weren’t officially part of the title of the new comic Marv originated with a Sept. 1976 cover date—but Stan’s contribution meant a lot to his young editor-in-chief! Pencils by Rich Buckler; inks by Joe Sinnott. Thanks to the Grand Comics Database. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
That Kid Inside by Jim Shooter Not Crazy About It, But… Ye Ed (that’s Roy—Marv’s an editor, too, after all!) recalls that publisher Stan felt that the Wolfman-scripted back cover of Crazy Magazine #2 (Feb. 1974) was a bit strong for his tastes, as he would’ve preferred to think that McDonalds’ top execs would chuckle when they spotted a Mad-style parody of their hamburger chain, rather than blanch—but Marv was the editor, and what he wrote stood, except his “Over 15 Billion Dead” got changed to “Over 15 Billion Hungry.” He and Stan basically got along just fine! Thanks to Barry Pearl. [Text TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.; photo TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
Stan was easy to talk to, because he had one of those personalities that made him very approachable. I’d usually go in seeking help when I couldn’t figure out the answer on my own. I had created a character named Nova, and it had been green-lit to be a new monthly Marvel comic. There was only one problem. More than a few people told me they thought the name Nova sounded more like a woman’s name than a man’s. I loved the name but was worried they were right. Days passed, and I couldn’t figure out what to do or come up with a better name. Finally, I went into Stan’s office and asked what he thought. Without hesitating, he said, “Call it The Man Called Nova.” Problem solved. The man knew what he was talking about. I could disagree with him, as I often did while I was editor of Crazy Magazine, but I’d never met anyone who so thoroughly understood the comic medium half as well as he. He loved comics and, through his editorials and the comics themselves, he filled us with that same love of the medium. As a writer he excited us with great, fun stories. As an editor he managed to get everyone to do their best work. As a boss, he encouraged us not to copy his style but to find our own. That and more was Stan. I doubt we’ll see his like again.
At the turn of 1978, after the tenures of Wein, Wolfman, Conway, and (for nearly two years) Archie Goodwin, Jim Shooter succeeded the latter as Marvel’s editor-in-chief… the last of the breed to work closely and personally with Stan while The Man still lived in New York City, before (around 1980) he and his wife moved to Los Angeles, after which they only returned to the East Coast for brief stays. Knowing that Jim and I have not always had the best relationship (although I think we’ve always held a respect for each other’s talent and work ethic), Stan told me on more than one occasion that Jim and I reminded him of each other, in that each of us was willing to do whatever it took to get the job done. Nobody in the comics field could wish for higher praise than that from the master. I invited Jim to write about Stan for this memorial issue…. I’ve been asked a number of times to write a tribute to Stan. Every word I write is a tribute to Stan. That’s not ’nuff said, though. Here’s some more words. Stan Lee was the guest of honor at the Chicago Comicon in 1995. To celebrate his appearance, they held a Stan Lee Roast. Peter David was the Master of Ceremonies. The other roasters chosen by the con organizers were Sal Buscema, Roy Thomas, John Romita, Chris Claremont, Julie Schwartz, and me. John, of course, worked closely with Stan for a long time. Roy probably knew him better than anyone. I think I knew Stan pretty well. But there were several inexplicable choices in that group. Sal lived 300 miles away from New York. During my 12 years at Marvel, he came to the office exactly once, and that was after Stan had moved to L.A. As far as I know, Sal never had much contact with Stan. Julie Schwartz knew Stan only as the head guy at the company that was eating DC’s lunch. Chris Claremont occasionally saw Stan in the hallways or the elevator but never worked with him directly. For that matter, neither did Peter David. I was a last-minute recruit. Apparently, somebody canceled.
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secret identity. Batman was still fighting The Penguin atop giant typewriters and toothpaste tubes. “So, I read the raggedy Marvels. “Drumroll…. “They were revolutionary.
Jim Shooter and Stan Lee in 1986—and Ron Zalme’s cover of the two of them for Marvel Age #8 (circa 1984). Thanks to Jim for both scans. [Cover TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Probably Charlton’s letterer, “A. Machine.” Sal made the usual, generic roast jokes. No real relevance to Stan. Julie reminisced about the rivalry between Marvel and DC (which, in realty, consisted of Stan and company clobbering DC; trust me, I worked at DC for much of that time). Chris recalled various hallway encounters and chats with Stan. Roy gave historical perspective and let his vorpal blade snicker-snack a few times in a reverently irreverent way. John, who is the most gentlemanly of men, told a few mild, funny stories. More than once he joked about Stan taking credit for everything. If you’re old enough to remember, you know that in ancient Bullpen Bulletins and letter columns, Stan himself occasionally kidded about taking all the credit—always as a punchline at the end of a heartfelt rave about a great artist like John.
“These days, lots of people forget, or they’re too young to remember, how amazingly different those comics were. A lot of the things that were revolutionary then are taken for granted now. However, 34 years ago Marvel comics were startlingly different. “Almost all the Marvels were written by this Stan Lee guy. “Boy, I wanted to do that. I wanted to be like Stan. “So, I studied—no, really, studied!—those Marvel comics. I learned to do a pale imitation of Stan. “That was good enough to get me a job writing comics for DC at age 13. “Marvel was taking off back then, in the mid-’60s. The people I worked with at DC—editors, writers, and execs—couldn’t understand why Marvel was succeeding and their sales were falling.
I think John didn’t realize that some people were promulgating the notion that Stan had actually, nefariously claimed creative credit that rightly belonged to Kirby, Ditko, and others. I’m very sure John wasn’t keeping up with the buzz in the fanzines. Well, he sort of inadvertently teed things up for me. Peter David’s introduction of me was: “Jim Shooter is to the creative community what Phillip Morris is to asthma sufferers.” Yes, I remember that word for word. Thanks, P.D. Here’s what I had to say, reconstructed from my notes. Forgive me for removing stutters and tongue tangles: “When I was 12, I spent a week in the hospital. No big deal. I lived. In any children’s ward in those days there were piles and piles of comicbooks. I’d stopped reading comics when I was eight, but I had time to kill. Some of the comics were familiar, like Batman and Superman. There were also this new kind I’d never heard of—Marvel Comics. “The DC comicbooks were in good shape, as if they’d hardly been opened. The Marvels were ratty and dog-eared. I took the road less traveled. The DC comics were the same as I’d gotten bored with years before. Lois Lane was still trying to discover Superman’s
Roasted! A group shot from the Stan Lee Roast held at the 1995 Chicago Comic-Con. (L. to r.:) Peter David, Chris Claremont, Roy Thomas, Jim Shooter, Stan Lee, Sal Buscema, John Romita, Julius Schwartz. Jim seems uncertain about Sal’s relationship with Stan, and it’s true they rarely worked together—but John B.’s little brother gave a hilarious account of his first meeting with Stan, in which he was terrified by his leaping on and off the furniture—while Julie and Stan had recently appeared at several conventions as what fans called “The Stan and Julie Show,” featuring the two most important Silver Age editors. Ye Ed’s real question is why he (Roy) looks as if he’s sticking his tongue out! The entire festivities were transcribed for Alter Ego, Vol. 3, #1, in 1999.
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“They just didn’t get it. “I remember being in the office and attending a meeting where the DC brain trust discussed the situation. Some writer held up an issue of Spider-Man and said, ‘Look! Two pages of Peter Parker talking to his aunt! The readers must be bored to tears.’ (No, we weren’t.) Another genius showed a page of The X-Men and said, ‘A whole page of the Angel blathering about the joy of flying…? Superman flies all the time!’ (Right. And, if it’s no big deal to him, why should we care about it?) “Aside: I could have told them why we, the readers, loved Marvel and were bored by DC, but being the newbie in the room I wisely kept my mouth shut. Second aside: Some DC people referred to me as their ‘Marvel writer,’ and they meant it as a dig. Bob Haney coined the insult, I believe. “Third aside: While DC sales were falling across the line, my regular book,
Fear Of Flying? Undoubtedly, the Angel flying sequence Jim referred to at that Roast is the one from The X-Men #17 (Feb. 1966), with script by Stan Lee, layouts by Jack Kirby, finished pencils by Werner Roth (as “Jay Gavin”), and inks by Dick Ayers. If A/E’s editor’s memory isn’t faulty, that full-page shot of Warren Worthington III winging it was added largely because Stan decided not to use a page Kirby had laid out earlier in the story—but it worked out gloriously, of course. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Adventure Comics, ‘featuring Superboy and The Legion of Super-Heroes,’ stayed at half a million copies sold a month during my four-plus years on the book. The ‘Marvel writer,’ though no Stan Lee by a long shot, held his own, a clue lost upon the DC intelligentsia. “Marvel heroes did things like launder their costumes. Get sick. Have fun. Screw up. Etc. “Stan’s sound-bite description of the Marvel style back then was ‘heroes with problems.’ But it was so much more than that. It was heroes with lives. “Revolutionary. “I finally got to work with Stan years later. I was hired as editor at Marvel and, two years after that, was promoted to editor-in-chief. During the 12 years I was there, I finally got to know the man who’d been my mentor by remote control, the man I’d tried to emulate.
My Name Is Legion One of Jim Shooter’s last Superboy [& Legion of Super-Heroes] issues before he left DC for Marvel was issue #212 (Oct.1975), with art by Mike Grell. Thanks to Bob Bailey. [TM & © DC Comics.]
“Most of you who don’t know him personally probably think of him as the ultimate pitchman—all hype, always exaggerating, sort of the Crazy Eddie of comics. Let me tell you how he really is. This is the truth, no joke. People think
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it’s a bluish green. “I practically had to twist George’s arm to get a green background once. I made the logo work. I showed the cover to Stan. He said, ‘Great!’ “George said, ‘See? Stan’s always changing his mind.’ “That’s another thing you’ll hear about Stan—that he changes his mind a lot. It’s not true. “One time, Stan was going over an Iron Man book with the then-current EIC. Stan said, ‘Doesn’t he have a nose?’
Jim Shooter Highlight Reel (Above:) Stan’s late-1977 memo announcing Jim Shooter replacing Archie Goodwn as Marvel’s editor-in-chief. Thanks to JS. (Above right:) While Jim Shooter had memorable runs on The Avengers and several other Marvel (and DC) titles, he’s most noted for writing (as well as editing, of course) the 12-issue limited series Marvel Super-Heroes Secret Wars, which set sales records. Cover pencils of #1 (May 1984) by Mike Zeck; inks by John Beatty. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
that his incredible enthusiasm must be a put-on, but no, let me assure you he’s always like that. It’s sincere. He’s an enthusiastic guy. He’s like the Energizer Bunny on speed. It’s not just when he’s talking Marvel. It’s his whole life. He walks like his pants are on fire. He used to run up the stairs, ten floors, because he hated waiting for the elevator. He had to have an office with a bathroom, because when he wanted to go, he wanted to go! “Stan does tend to speak in hyperbole. It’s natural to him. It gets him in trouble sometimes. You have to learn to interpret Stan a little if you work with him. ‘Never do that’ means ‘In this particular instance this idea doesn’t quite seem to work.’ “One time, Stan told George Roussos, the best cover colorist in the world, ‘Never make the background green.’ Well, I know what he meant. Most logos don’t show up well against mediumvalue colors like green, so usually it’s a bad choice. However, if you solve the logo problem, it’s fine. Yellow usually works, especially if
“Those Were The Days, My Friend…” Jim says of the above pic: “Stan gave me this photo. I don’t know when it was taken. Check out the rotary phone and that typewriter.” Jim says that he once sent Stan a birthday telegram which featured a “deliberately awful poem”: Remember how it used to be When you were only 63? We’ll be expecting much, much more Now that you are 64. And take it from a thirty-fiver Don’t drink tequila It’s bad for your liver. Stan sent his own double-telegram in response, which is depicted at right.
“What he meant was that George Tuska was drawing the mask a little flat and it didn’t look like there was room for Tony Stark’s nose under it. But what happened was that they started drawing Iron Man with this Tin Woodman nose. It looked like a bottleopener. Bad guys could open their beer with it.
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“A while later, Stan saw Iron man’s new beak and was not pleased. And everyone said, ‘See? He always changes his mind.’ “Nah. “Stan is sort of living proof of how easy it is to be misunderstood. “I was lucky. I got to spend a great deal of time with Stan, not only working on the comics, but also assisting him for a while on the Spider-Man newspaper strip, which was drawn by some Italian artist—Michelangelo, I think. “I also worked with him on a few non-comics but comics-related projects. “I think I got to know him and understand him pretty well. I found him to be sincere, honest, rational, thoughtful, considerate, and consistent. “And brilliant. “I guess the point at which I really felt I knew Stan was in ’86. I was at his house. We were standing on his terrace, looking out over L.A. I said to him, words to the effect, you know, ‘Somewhere inside me, there’s still that twelve-year-old kid who can’t believe that I’m editor-in-chief of Marvel Comics and I’m standing here with Stan Lee.’ He said he knew what I meant, that somewhere inside him was the little kid he used to be, who was awestruck by all that had happened to him. He couldn’t believe that big stars and Hollywood moguls called him on the phone, and that some of them were his neighbors. “It may not seem like much, but that little moment of rapport is
Anniversary Schmaltz The Barry WindsorSmith cover of Fantastic Four #296 (Nov. 1986), the 25th-anniversary issue—and the sincerely grateful note that Stan sent Jim Shooter concerning the plot the latter had done for it so Stan could script that landmark event. [Cover TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
on the highlight reel of my life. It crystallized to me how important it was to keep that kid inside alive. “That’s where the joy is. And love lives. “Well, it wasn’t too long after that Marvel went through a period of corporate takeovers, being bought and sold. I ended up outta there. “I haven’t seen much of Stan since then. However, I’ve managed to use what he taught me to make a living one place or the next. I wish he’d taught me how to keep a job.
Personna Not Grata Ad company’s photo/plan for Stan’s Personna razor-blade commercial, done in 1976. Thanks to Jim Shooter.
“Now, eight years have passed. Looking back…well, it’s interesting. I set out to emulate Stan. As it turns out, we’ve had many more similar experiences than I realized. We both started writing comics professionally in our teens. Stan was around 40 when he did the work that made everyone marvel. I was around 40 when I did the
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seem possible. I learned so much from him. So many of us in the business did; even those who never got to work with Stan owe a debt to his genius and inspiration. Long ago, speaking about comicbook writers, Steve Englehart wrote: “Stan is the father of us all.” Nice one, Steve.
Jim Shooter & Stan Lee at a big Denver convention, 2016. Also seen is a 1986 memo from Stan, in gratitude for a “Bullpen Bulletins” piece by JS about The Man. Courtesy of Jim S.
work that got me the most… Acclaim. Ahem. “Both of us suffered through being stabbed in the back by people we thought were close friends. People we trusted. “Both of us have been lied about, misquoted, slandered, libeled, and misjudged by people ignorant of the facts. Both of us have been falsely accused of taking credit for other people’s work. Both of us have seen credit for work we did, things we created, taken away. “Stan has borne it all with courage, grace, poise, and dignity. He’s remained a gentleman again and again, even when it was difficult. “I wasn’t there when the Marvel Universe and its characters were created. But I’ve spoken extensively with those who were, including Sol, Flo, Morrie, and others. I’ve worked with several of the key participants in that incredible creative collaboration, including Jack, Steve, Don Heck, Vinnie, and Michelangelo, to name a few. Although their contributions were huge, even indispensable, it’s clear to me that Stan was the guiding force, the linchpin, and the most important creator of the Marvel Universe. I worked with him closely. I saw him in action. He was and is The Man. “One thing I learned from Stan—actually, I guess I really learned this from Spider-Man—sometimes you just have to be content that you know the truth. “Stan, I want you to know that I’m still learning from you. By remote control again, unfortunately. You’re a hero to me and I’m still trying to emulate you. “Thanks to you, I’ll never lose that kid inside.” That was 1995. Now, here we are. Stan is gone. It just doesn’t
So, tell you what, fellow children, to honor him let’s give a good account of ourselves. So, if he’s watching, he’ll be proud. All you True Believers, too. He taught us all to face front.
Kid Stan – Outlaw by Tony Isabella Below, Tony Isabella remembers being hired as an assistant on the new Mighty World of Marvel magazine, which reprinted Marvel material for sale in the United Kingdom. My own memory is of Stan telling me he needed someone who could write press releases, Bullpen Bulletins-style pieces, and the like more or less in his style, and my feeling that Tony, whom I knew as a comics fan-journalist of some talent, could handle that assignment. Maybe Tony got bounced from one job to the other even before he walked in the door. What matters is that he became a writer and editor for Marvel for the next number of years, and he was good at it. Nowadays, he’s become best-known as the creator of Black Lightning, the DC super-hero who has his own WB TV series—but before he was the darling of the DC air waves, he was a Marvel man through and through…. I had two fathers. To put it more accurately, my career as a comics writer has two fathers. Louis Isabella encouraged my writing when I was young, building an “office” in the basement of our Cleveland home so I could write in relative peace. Stan Lee inspired my writing with his comics. I wanted to be part of the universe he created with Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, and others. It was one of the most satisfying moments of my life when I introduced Lou to Stan when the former visited me in New York. Stan was one of my first bosses in comics, along with Roy Thomas and Sol Brodsky. Roy had hired me to assist Stan and Sol on The Mighty World of Marvel, the British comics weekly reprinting the earliest adventures of the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, and the Hulk, and some other projects. I could not have had three better teachers. I wish I had been a much better student. Still, some of
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Tony Isabella today—flanked by a key page from Marvel’s Black Goliath #1 (Feb. 1976), with art by George Tuska & Vince Colletta, and the cover of the first issue of his most noted creation, Black Lightning (April 1977), with art by Rich Buckler & Frank Springer. [TM & © DC Comics.]
work. I figured it was my role to share Stan at his most playful. This is my all-time favorite Stan Lee story: I kept in touch with Stan through e-mail and the occasional visit to Los Angeles. The last time I spent any real time with him was in 2014 at his POW! Entertainment offices.
what I learned in my nigh-daily interactions with them did stick. Back in Ohio. For decades, when “civilians” learned I was a comicbook writer, the question they almost always asked me was: Does that mean you draw the pictures? Then, over a decade ago, they started asking a different question: Do you know Stan Lee? Their faces lit up when I answered. Stan was one of the best-known comicbook creators in comics history. Maybe even the best-known. People who only knew him through his countless cameos in Marvel’s movies loved him. So did I. Stan’s passing was not unexpected, but it still hit hard. I learned of his death when I came home from a convention and to hundreds of messages about the sad news. One was from a Cleveland TV station, which had interviewed me about Black Lightning, asking if I could drive down to the station to talk about Stan on their early evening news program. I threw on the cleanest suit I had and, on arrival, walked right onto the set a couple minutes before I was scheduled to go on. No time for makeup. Cleveland viewers got to see me as my hideous natural self. But I tried to do justice to Stan’s memory. He was and remains an inspiration to me. Tributes to Stan Lee have become commonplace at comics conventions and other related events. I’ve done some of them. So many talented creators sharing their thoughts about Stan and his
There was a framed enlargement of the photo cover of Black Rider #8 [March 1950]. No mistaking the eyes of the masked “Mystery Man of the Western Range.” Stan had posed for that cover. After answering Stan’s questions about my own life, I mentioned the cover and said he should have been a movie star. Stan chuckled and told me a story of his outlaw youth. Stan was an experienced rider. He used to walk through Central Park while playing “hooky” from his job at Marvel. He often passed the stables where people could rent horses to ride through the park, albeit on the approved riding trails. On one such day, Stan rented a big beautiful horse by the name of Redman. Stan yearned to let this gorgeous animal go full-tilt in violation of the law and the stable
How The Mighty Are Risen! Tony’s first assignment for Stan and company was to assist-edit on the first black-&-white Marvel-UK weekly reprint title The Mighty World of Marvel, as per this cover for the Dec. 12, 1972, issue, as penciled by Jim Starlin and inked by Joe Sinnott. Thanks to the Grand Comics Database. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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rules. He gave in to the temptation and they were off. The duo were spotted by a mounted police officer, who immediately gave chase, shouting obscenities at the unmasked mystery man of the Manhattan Plains. Now, Stan could have slowed down, but he was having too good a time. He and Redman kept going full-speed. Consummate actor that he was, Stan pretended he didn’t have control of his steed.
Stan Lee—Rider/Editor
The officer’s tone changed immediately. He followed the racing Stan and Redman all the way back to the stables, constantly shouting out encouragement to Stan that he wouldn’t let him get hurt.
Stan Lee, in a rented outfit, posed for the cover of Timely’s Black Rider #8 (March 1950), which was actually the series’ first issue. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
When they miraculously got back to the stables okay, the officer quickly dismounted and ran over to Stan. He asked if Stan was okay, if he needed medical attention. His concern moved Stan.
As much as I admire all that Stan Lee brought to comicbooks and to my own life, I think I will always cherish his impish side as much. Stan made comics great, but he also made them fun. Happy trails to you, my fearless leader. I’ll see you down the road when it’s my time for that last ride.
STAN LEE—As I Knew Him by David Anthony Kraft Dave Kraft was one of the last people I hired at Marvel before leaving the editor-in-chief job, and he stuck around to do a lot of writing and editing, including handling Marvel’s very own fan magazine, F.O.O.M. [Friends of Old Marvel]. He also conducted one of the better Stan Lee interviews, for that magazine. Stan was never anything but above board and honest in his dealings all the years I’ve known him, and was always willing to go above and beyond—even to providing a foreword to my Yi Soon Shin: Warrior and Defender graphic novel co-written with Onrie Kompan, with no interest in the property other than that he liked what he saw, at no charge of any kind, of course. That’s the Stan I knew and loved. His door truly was “always open,” and he gave freely of his time and advice—on stuff unrelated to comics, even. It’s a funny thing (as he’d say), but we had many long conversations—and never about comics! He stayed positive in the face of calumnies and accusations, was quick to admit error and to forgive and forget (I know firsthand!) when he was wrong (albeit couched in humor, of course). Stan had a terrific sense of humor and was bad to interrupt you in mid-sentence to correct mispronounced words (though not
Stan put his hand on the officer’s shoulder and said: “Officer, I was really scared out there. But, once I knew you were with me, I knew I’d be okay.”
“Stan The Man & Dave The Dude” That was the copyline beneath the photo of publisher Stan Lee and editor David Anthony Kraft in F.O.O.M. #17 (March 1977), Marvel’s own fan-club magazine. That issue also contained Dave’s excellent interview with Stan, which has been reprinted since. As seen at right, Stan wrote a foreword to Yi Soon Shin: Warrior and Defender, a graphic novel co-written by David Anthony Kraft and artist Onrie Kompan. Cover art by the latter. [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
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Creatures Features (Left:) The splash page of one of the earliest stories DAK wrote for Marvel: the “Man-Wolf” lead story from Creatures on the Loose #33 (Jan. 1975). Pencils by George Pérez, inks by Klaus Jason. (Right:) Dave had a fairly long run on Marvel’s The Defenders, as sampled by this splash from issue #46 (April 1977), which he co-scripted with his friend Roger Slifer. Art by Keith Giffen & Klaus Janson. Thanks to Barry Pearl for both scans. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
appreciative of the favor being returned, LOL). As I’m sure he’d have been first to say, his major flaw was impatience. He’d rather walk up six flights of stairs than wait for an elevator, as he often did at 575 Madison, and didn’t always allow time enough before losing patience. But that was also his strength, the reason he got so much done. I once said something to the effect that it must be nice having a secretary to straighten up and clear his desktop of work (Stan always had a spotless office), to which he retorted that he couldn’t stand having work waiting on him, so he did everything as soon as he could, immediately if possible. Then Stan shrugged and said it might not always be his best work, but by God, it was done and that’s why there weren’t piles sitting around everywhere. Roy Thomas and Sol Brodsky both attested to that unswerving dedication to getting things done, in awe that even during the 1965 NY blackout, Stan still completed his script for a story due the next day—by candlelight. Stan took a lot of credit but really doesn’t get nearly enough. He not only revolutionized comics, he’s really been the template for revolutionizing mainstream movies with crossovers and flippant but well-defined heroic characters that he established first with comics. If not for the influence of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby on me and countless others in our formative years, we’d all be the poorer for it today.
Steve Englehart Stan must be one of the youngest members of whatever afterlife he chose for himself. Sure, he was 95 when he died, but in his head, I imagine he was always 17. A lot of people do that—see themselves at a certain age even as their outer years go by, and 17 is popular. (I never talked to him about it, but maybe one or two of the others did.) In any event, Stan was in his 40s when he wrote about Peter Parker, and Peter Parker is a very accurate high school kid. Stan wrote everybody else, of course, but Peter has a real consciousness that rings true—truer, maybe, than his in-his-40s Reed Richards. Stan was 17 when he started filling inkwells at his uncle’s comic business, 18 when he got his first story published, and not yet 19 when he became editor. So somewhere in between there Stan said, “This is who I am,” and a teenager became a hero. When I came to work in the Bullpen, Stan was still in his office at the right rear (he was 49). He was cheerful and open to me—he was Stan—but we didn’t go out for beers. He was the editor-inchief, and I was a six-week fill-in editorial assistant. However, I ended up staying on, and a few months later, he called me into his office and asked if I had any Fantastic Four ideas. I didn’t, but the next day I had a complete plot for him. It was a follow-up to FF #39-40, when Daredevil guest-starred. Stan read it and said, “We’re in a different place now.” Then he created Gabriel, the new herald of Galactus. A few months later he gave up his writing and turned
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of us by then. Around the year 2000, he was running Stan Lee Media, which was going to produce webisodes of super-hero stories. In time, the Internet would prove too slow for decent animation, and his partner would run off to Brazil, but before that, he had a studio going with dedicated people—Steve Gerber, Russ Heath, among others. He hired me to write a series about a hero with vampire powers but not a vampire; it was, and is, a good idea. One day, we were talking about whether our guy was immortal, too, and he (age 78) told me about a thing he thought had helped his longevity: he liked to write standing up. I had heard of writers like that but had never seen one in the wild. If I were going to meet one, though, it didn’t surprise me that it’d be him. The last time Stan and I talked was at the Doctor Strange movie premiere. He was then 93. We were both enthusiastic about the film, and if the delivery of his thoughts was of a man who’d seen it all, the thoughts themselves were the thoughts of a teenager who loved comics. He really liked the floating cloak. It seems to me there are two types of comics fans: some are childlike and some are childish. Stan could be childish sometimes, as can we all, but mostly he was childlike. Maybe teenager-like, but young at heart for sure, for all of his nearly 96 years. That’s what I would credit for his longevity—how can you die of old age when you’re young? Well, nobody’s immortal physically, but some people are immortal historically, and Stan Lee was one of them. There are plenty of people who knew him better than I did, but I’m damn glad I got to know him in whatever way.
Steve Englehart back in the day, and the splash page of Marvel Premiere #14 (March 1974), with art by Frank Brunner. This was the issue whose makeshift defense led Steve to—well, we’ll let him tell the story, in his rhapsodic reminiscence. Thanks to Barry Pearl for the art scan. [MP page TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
his attention to Hollywood. So I had only a few months in the same bioregion with him, and that’s what they consisted of—but I am damn glad I got to know Stan Lee in whatever way. I posited Stan in an afterlife before. There’s a good chance he didn’t believe in one, but he had the editor’s eye for religion and politics. The story’s been told many times, but when Frank Brunner and I did a story about God in Doctor Strange, we heard from New York that Stan might want to soften it. It was right at Christmastime and I was about to fly to Indianapolis by way of Dallas, so I wrote a letter to Mr. Lee complimenting him on his wonderful story. I signed it Rev. So-and-So, gave an address in Dallas, mailed it in Dallas—leaving no trace for Stan’s crack team of investigators to track me down. It worked; Stan relaxed. The problem came later, when the occasional boasting at parties about this coup drifted far enough to get back to Stan. Fortunately, he’d had several years in California before I ran into him again at San Diego, and fortunately he did know me, so it was just a funny anecdote for both
Stan Lee Remembered by Richard J. Arndt Richard is an exception to our criteria for inclusion in this section. As Alter Ego’s chief interviewer for the past few years, he has talked to many people who worked with, for, or (competition-wise) “against” Stan Lee over the years—and we wanted to include his words here….
Have A Cloak! It’s The Real Thing! Stephen Strange’s cloak of levitation basically “comes alive” in the 2016 film with Benedict Cumberbatch—just as it had often seemed to be since it had been introduced in the old Lee-Ditko “Doctor Strange” feature in 1960s Strange Tales. Steve reports that Stan liked that facet of the flick! [TM & © Disney.] Steve is pictured in spring of 2016 at a con in Portsmouth, England, where he and Ye Editor last ran into each other.
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Stan Lee was a hero to young readers in the 1960s and 1970s. In later years, to some, he became something of a more controversial figure. But during the course of his life, he developed Marvel Comics into a powerhouse. Was he solely responsible for that? Of course not. But he, with considerable help from his artists and editorial staff, was at the forefront of a sea change in how comics were perceived and the respect that they deserved. Along the way he co-wrote the first explicit civil rights story (in Sgt. Fury) in comics since EC Comics’ color line was canceled eight years earlier. He co-created with Jack Kirby Richard Arndt comics’ first black super-hero. and the final panels of Fantastic Four #52 (July 1966), in which the Black Panther Their Fantastic Four comic unmasks for the first time. Script by Stan Lee, art by Jack Kirby, inks by Joe Sinnott. was the first indication that a Thanks to Barry Pearl. [F.F. page TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.] super-hero team could also be a family, with all its dysfunctional myths weren’t quite as true as the reality... well, so be it. The only aches and pains, and not just a possible way that myth can become reality is if people believe it collection of random heroes. It and work towards making the myth a genuine reality. The Stan was Stan Lee who wrote “With great Lee the public saw was likely part-myth and part-reality. Stan Lee power there must come great responsibility.” It is a declaration that wasn’t perfect, but what he gave us for so many years still has the holds as true today as then and is a much more far-reaching and potential to be as perfect as possible. He gave us so much. And bold statement about life in general, than simply a comics cliché. that’s worth remembering, which is what I plan on doing. His work, along with, first and foremost, Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko, while not neglecting the contributions of Larry Lieber, Don Thanks to Marv, Jim, Tony, Dave, Steve, and Richard Heck, Dick Ayers, Sol Brodsky, Flo Steinberg, Stan Goldberg and for being a part of this memorial issue to Stan. others, created Marvel Comics. Not just the mythic universe of the books themselves but the mythic Bullpen as well. And if the
Art by John Romita. Captain America TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.
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STAN LEE & MOEBIUS When Titans Clashed—Together! by Jean-Marc Lofficier
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only worked with Stan once—on the Silver Surfer graphic novel he did with Jean “Moebius” Giraud in 1987-88.
Jean and I, who were then business partners, first met Stan in a one-on-one at the American Booksellers’ Association convention in May 1987 in Anaheim, California, then again at the San Diego Comic-Con a couple of months later. Stan was very eager to find a way to work with Jean, and the feeling was reciprocated. The problem was that Jean was unfamiliar with most of the Marvel characters. He had first discovered them in their French editions in 1969 in the magazines Fantask, then Strange, published by Editions Lug, the current successor of which is Hexagon Comics, of which I am today editor-in-chief. The one series that had most impressed him was Stan and John Buscema’s glorious Silver Surfer of 1968-70, which had garnered much praise from French writers and artists, and had even been wonderfully parodied by top cartoonist Marcel Gotlib
Jean Giraud (aka “Moebius”) & Jean-Marc Lofficier That’s “Moebius” on the left, around the time of his and Stan Lee’s Silver Surfer: Parable graphic novel—while Jean-Marc is seen (on right) walking his dogs in the countryside earlier this year. Jean Giraud, of course, drew and colored the cover of the Marvel/Epic graphic novel. The two separate issues won the 1989 Eisner Award for “Best Finite/Limited Series.” Thanks to Jean-Marc for the photo of himself; the pic of Moebius was found on the Internet. We figure you know what Stan looks like by now—and alas, we have no photos of him and Moebius together. [Parable cover TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
in his humor magazine Fluide Glacial (which also published Carmen Cru, which my wife Randy and I translated for the US market under the title French Ice). So, when we had lunch at Comic-Con, I suggested the Surfer as the best “candidate” for a collaboration. This was greeted enthusiastically by Stan, since it was his favorite character. I also suggested to Stan that he should write a stand-alone story, with just the Surfer, without a plethora of other Marvel guest-stars, like the other stand-alone he had done with Jack Kirby to try to sell a Surfer movie, which had ended up being published by Simon & Schuster in 1978. This was, he said, something that fit his vision perfectly, and he wouldn’t have dreamed of doing otherwise. Jean was very intent on having his name on a “real” American comicbook, one printed on newsprint, colored with the Ben Day process. Archie Goodwin, who was then Epic’s editor, came up with the concept of publishing the story as two comics first, reusing the original Surfer logo from the ’60s, then collecting it in a jacketed hardcover with some additional features six months later. Stan went home to write the plot, almost suffering from stage fright, which I thought was both surprising and endearing. After all, if Moebius was Moebius, he was Stan “The Man” Lee. And Jean was not an intimidating figure; he and Stan had visibly clicked during the lunch and had found much in common in their philosophies of life. I genuinely don’t recall how long it took Stan to write the plot
Stan Lee & Moebius
“The Coming Of Gallic-tus?” (Above:) French cartoonist Marcel Gotlib’s parody of the Stan Lee/John Buscema Silver Surfer comic first appeared in L’Echo des Savanes #7 in 1974. Thanks to Jean-Marc Lofficier. [TM & © Marcel Gotlib.] (Top right:) The last real comics collaboration between Stan Lee and Jack Kirby was their 1978 Simon & Schuster graphic novel The Silver Surfer—which resembled a replay of 1966’s Fantastic Four #48-50, only with the F.F. replaced by a gal named Ardina. Inks by Joe Sinnott. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
of what became Parable. I’d say a couple of weeks, perhaps a month, but I’m not sure. Eventually, I did get the typewritten plot in the post (remember the post?) and took it to Jean who, at the time, lived in a lovely house in the hills near Topanga in the L.A. area. I liked it, but my opinion in the matter was irrelevant; however, I thought Jean would like it, too, and I was proven right. He was delighted with it. I remember that Stan called me a few days later and, sounding rather insecure, asked if Jean had liked his story; and he was over the moon when I reported that he had, indeed, very much loved it. Jean then broke down the plot in rough pencil breakdowns (some of which were reproduced in that first hardcover edition), ending up with 43 pages (the story was supposed to have 44), which provoked his admiration about Stan’s plotting ability. He often had to add or cut bits when working with his other writers. Truth to tell, I “plotted” the third
War And Pieces Penciler John Buscema rendered his own version of Edward Hicks’ famous 1826 painting “The Peaceable Kingdom”—for Stan Lee to script, and his brother Sal B. to ink—in The Silver Surfer #4 (Feb. 1969). Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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15—which took a few extra days to be drawn, as Jean was still figuring out how to make the Surfer “his” and not a pale copy of Big John Buscema’s. (One of his earlier attempts was later used as a cover for Marvel Age and was later issued as a poster, but Jean was never satisfied with it.) The Surfer eventually entered the story stage left, and the rest followed satisfactorily until the conclusion. Jean delivered fully inked, finished pages, and Stan wrote his script and did the balloon placements on photocopies. Jean insisted on doing the lettering himself, feeling that the line work of the letters had to match that of the inked art. The lettering was done on tracing paper, or ordinary paper, and superimposed over the art by the Marvel offices in New York. Despite his best efforts, English not being his mother tongue, Jean made a number of typos, which I fixed myself with liquid paper. If you ever purchase an original page of art with its lettering overlay, I’ll be happy to sign the latter! Jean laid out the coloring by writing the Ben Day numbers on another set of photocopies. It was very hot that summer, and the quality of the print run on #1 was affected by the high temperatures; but #2 came out just fine. Jean was thrilled to finally hold a “real American comic” with his name on it in his hands. I don’t think Stan ever saw the appeal in that, but he was happy to humor Jean; and he certainly was thrilled when he saw the beautiful hardcover that Archie, Margaret Clark, and Robbin Brosterman put together a few months later.
Surf’s Up! (Left:) The original art of one of Moebius’ earlier studies of The Silver Surfer, with which the artist, says Jean-Marc, “was never satisfied.” (Right:) The cover of the June 1, 2000, issue of Marvel Age, the company’s own “newszine,” which utilized that art. At some stage, the art was also turned into a full-color poster. Thanks to Jean-Marc Lofficier. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
page of the second comic to make up the page count. I initially intended it to be a flashback to #1, but when I showed it to Stan, after apologizing for the initiative, he was thrilled with it, said it was a great idea, but he’d script it as part of the ongoing narrative—and it worked. The funny thing is that Jean ended up mistakenly drawing two page 7s; the second one was cut from the comic and appeared only in the hardcover, with a bit of additional last-minute scripting by Stan. Jean also insisted on redrawing an entirely new splash page for #2, the original of which was printed in black-&-white in the hardcover. If Stan had experienced some stage fright before writing the plot, it was now Jean’s turn to feel the same at the prospect of having to draw the mythical Silver Surfer. Strangely, drawing Galactus was no problem, but he definitely had cold feet at drawing the famous “sky-rider of the spaceways.” Stan’s plot did not unmask Norrin Radd in his full silver brilliance until page
It was Jean’s idea to present Stan, as a gift, the beautiful painted cover he had drawn especially for the hardcover edition. Later, I saw it hanging in his office; I believe the New York people once needed to borrow the original, and Stan put them through the wringer to make absolutely certain he would get it back. There isn’t much more to add. We would discuss with Stan during our occasional lunches the possibility of another story, but I don’t think either his or Jean’s hearts were really into it. The two giants had met, like Cyrano and D’Artagnan, worked together to great effect, and any encore would have been entirely superfluous. And now for something completely different… This story happened long before I met Stan, but in a “six degrees of separation” fashion, it involved a number of people with whom Randy and I later worked and became friends: Len & Ann Mogel, Michael Gross, and Roy Thomas. During a trip to Paris in the mid-’70s, the ground-breaking French comics magazine Métal Hurlant, which was launched in 1975 by Moebius, Philippe Druillet, and others, caught the eye of Ann Mogel, the wife of then-National Lampoon publisher, Len Mogel. Len decided to license the rights to publish an American edition, Heavy Metal, which came out in 1977 and first introduced
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However, such threats were treated at the Lampoon with the scorn they deserved, and, being a merry band of pranksters (especially co-editor and co-founder Doug Kenney), knowing as we all do that dynamite is harmless when inert, the editors thought it funny to play with the sticks, throwing them around the office in mock panic, doing Yosemite Sam impersonations, and other hi-jinks. After all the fun had been had, someone decided to call the New York Fire Department to find out how to dispose of the dynamite. Clearly, the sticks couldn’t just be discarded in a wastepaper basket. The fireman at the other end of the line asked a number of routine questions, one of which was, “In what condition are the sticks?” When told by one of the editors that they were “a little damp,” there was a silence on the line. The kind of silence that precedes public executions. “It’s called sweating,” explained the fireman in a very slow, articulate and patient voice. “It means the sticks are old, the nitroglycerine is no longer stable, and it is coming out. They could go off at any time. You are going to leave them exactly where they are, not play with them, not touch them at all, evacuate the building, and we’re going to send a hazmat team to remove them.” And so it went: the entire building was evacuated; a crew of firemen with prongs and heavy steel boxes filled with sand came, and the threat was averted. I heard the other half of the story, much later and quite by accident, from Roy Thomas. For, you see, Marvel was, at that time, located in the same building as the Lampoon, just a couple of floors away, and Roy remembered well the day of the “bomb scare.” And that part of the story is his.
A Parable Beauty Is Born! A climactic page from the 1988 Lee/Moebius Silver Surfer: Parable graphic novel. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Moebius’ work to American readers. One of the early art directors of National Lampoon was Michael Gross, who left the company before Heavy Metal started. Michael was one of the creators responsible for the infamous January 1973 cover, “If You Don’t Buy This Magazine, We’ll Kill This Dog.” After leaving the Lampoon in 1974, he became associate producer on the Heavy Metal animated feature, which involved adapting a couple of Moebius stories, and Ghostbusters, for which he designed the famous logo. During our time as film journalists, Randy covered Heavy Metal for L’Ecran Fantastique and Ghostbusters for American Cinematographer.
It would appear that the building manager and a fire marshal went to talk to the Chief Officer of all the tenants in the building in order to tell them why they had to evacuate for a few hours, the time necessary for the NYFD to remove the dynamite. Roy’s office was close to Stan’s, and his door was wide open. The first clue he had that something unusual was going on was when he saw Stan zooming past his door in the direction of the exit like a rocket. Or as Roy later put it, “I never saw Stan walk that fast, with such long strides.”
Michael passed away in 2015, and the first half of this story is his. Back to National Lampoon in the early 1970s… When you publish a satirical magazine as sharp as the Lampoon was, one thing you’re going to get is hate mail—a lot of hate mail. Plus a few parcels from the hard-core haters, usually containing dog sh*t or bullets. But that day, what the Lampoon received in the mail was… sticks of dynamite! Mind you, there were no wires, no fuses, no timer mechanism, but the substance of the message was clear.
Buy This Magazine Or We’ll Shoot These Editors! National Lampoon co-founder Doug Kenney (left) and art director Michael Gross (right) flank the infamous cover of the Jan. 1973 issue—and Gross’ original sketch therefor. [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
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Somehow, in his haste to evacuate Marvel’s most precious asset, Stan appeared to have temporarily forgotten about the rest of the staff. Fortunately, the fire marshal took over, and the entire Bullpen was soon standing on the sidewalk outside, where they stayed for several hours, gossiping about what had happened. Stan had left and never returned that day. Roy himself eventually got bored standing around and wandered off to get a haircut. But—“the entire Bullpen”? Not quite. Colorist George Roussos, securely entrenched in a corner behind a wall of self-erected filing cabinets for his own privacy, ignored the threat, saw no reason to waste precious hours, and remained working throughout the emergency. And, being somewhat hidden, no one thought of forcibly removing him, until much later! I have always wondered if that scene wasn’t present in Jack Kirby’s mind (although he wasn’t there that day, he must have been told) when, at the end of the classic Mister Miracle #6, when Colonel Mockingbird’s house is about to explode, attacked by the Female Furies, the somewhat mean-spirited Stan Lee caricature that is Funky Flashman throws his manservant Houseroy to the Furies and runs away while his inherited home bursts into flames behind him. Sometimes life imitates art; or is it the other way around? Jean-Marc Lofficier is the editor-in-chief of Hexagon Comics in France, where he now resides once more with his wife Randy. In the 1980s they contributed to both DC and Marvel Comics, often in collaboration with Roy Thomas. At that time they were also Jean Giraud/Moebius’ partners in arranging for Marvel to publish much of the artist/writer’s output, both his “Moebius” work and his Western strip, Lt. Blueberry. NOTE: The rest of this page and the following one feature Jean “Moebius” Giraud’s pencil sketches for various scenes from Parable, courtesy of Jean-Marc Lofficier and, of course, Marvel Comics.
Stan Lee Was Dynamite! (Left to right:) Steve Englehart, Jean-Marc Lofficier, Roy Thomas, and the moderator (whose name, alas, we don’t seem to have) hold a slightly chilly outdoor “Stan Lee Tribute” panel at a con in Portsmouth, England, on May 4, 2019. This was the occasion on which first Jean-Marc, then Roy, told their POV tales of the dynamite sent to the National Lampoon offices in the early 1970s. Photo by John Cimino.
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Battleship Galactus Two more or less fully penciled sketches by Moebius of Galactus, from the artist’s 198788 sketchbook— accompanied by two of his chrome-coated herald. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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STAN LEE, AL LANDAU, & The Transworld Connection by Rob Kirby
Stan Lee and web-headed friend in a photo taken in 1974, during the period when Lee and Landau were publisher and president of Marvel Comics, respectively. Thanks to Ger Apeldoorn.
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Al Landau in a photo taken sometime in the 1980s. Courtesy of his grandson, Robert Landau. Albert Einstein Landau was the godson of Albert Einstein... named after the renowned physicist in honor, Rob Kirby discovered, of his having helped to raise funds to keep The Jewish Telegraphic Agency going between the world wars.
hile greater knowledge and insight into comics’ history has been accumulating in print during recent decades, both in book form and in magazines such as this one, there are possibly have become aware of the Mighty World Of Marvel #2 (Oct. 14, 1972) undoubtedly many other tantalizing Transworld name. The same holds We showed you the cover for MWOM #1 (Oct. 7, 1972) in secrets still waiting to be uncovered equally true for those aficionados conjunction with Robert Menzies’ article on Marvel UK in Alter and deciphered. One such mystery has Ego #150—so here’s the Jim Starlin/Joe Sinnott cover for issue #2, of the many and varied reprint long surrounded a company known as which spotlighted the ever-Incredible Hulk. Thanks to the Grand comics published in Australia, Transworld Feature Syndicate, Inc., and Comics Database. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.] New Zealand, and on mainland how exactly it became involved with Europe—likewise the products Marvel’s global expansion. Through my of a variety of local publishers—where the Transworld name researches into the origin and development of Marvel’s own line would again often be displayed somewhere within their copyright of British comics, it’s now clear that, despite Transworld Feature information. Beyond that, there was little to go on. Syndicate being involved with the comic giant’s overseas activities Who, and what, exactly, was Transworld? The puzzle seemed until the 1980s, it was never owned by Marvel, or indeed by any unsolvable. of the companies that later bought Marvel. This discovery is somewhat at variance with what, for example, Roy Thomas seems The origins of the Transworld family were equally a mystery to have assumed when writing 75 Years of Marvel: From the Golden to me when I first began research for a history of Marvel UK after a Age to the Silver Screen (p. 494), but as you’ll discover in these pages, decade-long search to index every single story published by Marvel Transworld initially operated in quite a different area altogether. in Britain since 1972—not an easy task, pre-Internet. There was next to nothing to be found about who Transworld were; and. after the Read All About It! birth of the web… actually, there still wasn’t that much extra to go on. I would eventually find out more, but only after widening my If you’ve ever read any of Marvel’s own British reprint comics purview to take into account all those licensed comics referred to from the first half-decade or so of their existence—or indeed above that preceded Marvel’s creation of The Mighty World of Marvel any of the earlier licensed comics pre-1971, which used material in 1972, a lineage that went as far back as 1951. from the Marvel/Atlas vaults, hailing from companies such as Thorpe and Porter, Alan Class, Odhams, and IPC—you might
In looking back right to the beginning, there were hints that
Stan Lee, Al Landau, & The Transworld Connection
Transworld could well have played a vital role in the genesis of the entire British project, although final confirmation of that came only after tracking down one elusive key player in the story. As I started to piece things together, it also became clear that I needed to track the development of Marvel from its origins as Timely Comics, to help explain how it seemed to me that parts of Stan Lee’s career, in hindsight, led almost inexorably towards their later British invasion on their own terms. Although I touched upon Transworld in my previous article on Marvel UK’s early years in TwoMorrows’ Back Issue #63, with Stan’s recent passing it seems an ideal time to look further at the company, and how his connections to Transworld helped set in motion the events leading up to Marvel’s adventures in the United Kingdom.
What’s In A Name? To begin with, I should make it clear that we’re not talking here about the similarly named “Transworld Publishers.” That entity was founded by Bantam Books, Inc., back in 1951 (and later purchased by the Bertlesmann group), and published paperback lines such as Corgi. The Transworld Feature Syndicate, Inc., in the frame here had been formed a year earlier by Ida Landau. A graduate of New York University, she had not long begun work as a lawyer before meeting and marrying Jacob Landau in 1921. The Viennese-born Jacob ran The Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA), which had other offices situated all around the world, from Warsaw to Jerusalem. In a far-sighted move, during the inter-World War years, the JTA had originally been set-up as a way of propagating the experiences of Jewish people right across the globe, and they are still active online today. Ida would eventually switch careers and join the JTA as its business manager until 1942, after which she went on to manage the Overseas News Agency (ONA) for Jacob until 1951, reporting on the plight of refugees towards the end of World War II. After setting up Transworld, and following the death of her husband the previous year, she began travelling around the world during 1953. In October of that year, she sustained head injuries in a car crash, which eventually led to health concerns that forced her to take a backseat in the new company. Based in midtown New York at 23 W. 47th Street during the
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early 1960s, as its name suggests, Transworld Feature Syndicate, Inc., provided a photo-and-features service for the international press. It employed illustrators to create magazine artwork and syndicated work by many photographers, such as the awardwinning Peter Skingley (who netted the UPI’s Overseas Press Club Special Award in 1968 for his news reportage). Transworld joined a long line of specialist agencies such as Rex Features, Magnum, and Getty Images, in providing such services to the news trade. It had taken the company a while to build up to this level of diversity, though, having started out as a syndication agency re-selling material in Central and South America, along with illustrative material destined for women’s glossy magazines.
Syndicated Adventures It wasn’t long before Transworld had branched out into comics as well, after coming into contact with Marvel publisher Martin Goodman, who also produced a whole host of magazines through the rest of his company Magazine Management. Transworld soon began handling the worldwide syndication of Goodman’s comicbook features, which grew into a much bigger concern as the new super-heroes forged in the Marvel explosion came to prominence. Any comics company wishing to use material from the Timely/Atlas/Marvel archives, or indeed any of the other American publishers that they would eventually represent (including Tower, Charlton, and the American Comics Group), would simply contact Transworld, requesting to purchase the rights to incorporate the strips they required for their own comics. Whatever they purchased appears usually to have been supplied in the form of prints, although Alan Class has previously mentioned that he received negatives, too. As foreign publishers began to latch on to the sales possibilities inherent in this new wave of super-heroes, it made sense for comics companies to have such outside agencies handling the time-consuming demands of licensing specific material to interested publishers around the world, and specialist companies such as Transworld Feature Syndicate, Inc., became vital. In time, this elusive organization would also help provide the key to unlocking the full potential of the UK marketplace for them. In the meantime, Ida’s health was now worsening and she naturally turned to her son, in the hope that he’d take over the business, keeping the company firmly within the family. This happened gradually, though, as Albert Landau was still studying for a law degree at Columbia University at that time.
All Around The World
Ida Landau
Jacob Landau
(1899-1986). Photo of Al Landau’s mother, founder of Transworld Feature Syndicate, Inc., located on Internet.
Al’s father died in 1952. Decades earlier, he had founded The Jewish Telegraphic Agency, which connected people of Jewish heritage all around the world. This photo appeared in The New York Times, and is from its online archive. [© the respective copyright holders.]
As the 1960s swung by, Albert Landau would assume complete control over the business. Expanding now on what I wrote in Back Issue #63, that “there were actually two separate businesses sharing the Transworld name, along with a network of subsidiary offices spread across the world”—these were located in various key cities including Milan, Paris, Helsinki, Mexico City, Stockholm, Munich, and Buenos Aires, amongst others. Landau then became permanently based in London as he built up the business there, punctuated by visits home to New York to oversee the head office. Understandably, he became increasingly keen to return home for good, and the means to do so came during his return visits to New York, after meeting up with the recently resident Ray Wergan. A former British sports reporter of note, Wergan [see photo on p. 143] had begun his career as a trainee reporter on The Manchester Evening Chronicle in 1957, before moving over to Thomson Newspapers in 1960. A year later, he took up the post of syndication manager at the Express newspaper group, and after their New York
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return to New York, but more immediately it would allow Wergan to bring his family back home to Britain. “We’d casually discussed this for a year,” Ray discloses, “but it was suddenly on. It was a huge commitment for both of us, based on a very significant trust between us.” Thus, suitably inspired by the possibilities, Ray left The Express Group and returned to London in June 1964, helping to “set-up syndication of Life based in Transworld’s London office,” which was then located up at High Holborn.
Magazine Mayhem By the mid-1960s, Ray records that Al had turned Transworld in London into “the major supplier of material to the woman’s magazine market through publishers such as Odhams, Newnes, and Fleetway.” This comprised anything from cookery features, knitting patterns, material for home improvement magazines, to huge double-page art illustrations for romantic fiction magazines. Yet, despite this, they had far less reach into Fleet Street. With newspapers such as The Daily Express selling four million copies and The Daily Mirror in the region of three million, this was too large a sector to miss out on. “My job at Transworld was to do in Fleet Street what Landau had done with the women’s magazines,” Ray declares. Obviously, he was already well-connected with people in the news trade, but, he says, “after the first announcement of what I was handling every week, everyone wanted to know me. It was frantic.” This freed up Landau’s time to expand the US operation further, as he built up their photographic sales to take in “Australia and South Africa, and then Germany and Holland.”
Britain’s Class System This comic (Uncanny Tales #108, sometime in the 1960s) was published by Alan Class & Co., Ltd., of London, sold for 10 pence... and contained 48 black-&-white pages of mystery comics that had originally appeared in the comics of the U.S. American Comics Group. Chances are that the pages were provided by Transworld. The Ogden Whitney cover art is from ACG’s Forbidden Worlds #91 (Oct. 1960). [TM & © the respective copyright holders.]
syndication manager had resigned to join Fleetway, he brought his young family across the Atlantic and took over from him. Seeking to build up firm contacts in the States for the Express—whose New York office was “massive,” Wergan declares—he soon established himself as a leading agent for the syndication of British content among the most popular US magazines of the day. After he and Landau met, they soon became firm friends, and “whenever he was over from London,” Wergan now explains, Landau would tell him how he “wanted to change the direction of both Transworld in London and his European business, and also wanted to return home to New York.” This longing for home also coincided with Wergan’s own feelings, finding himself torn between enjoying the buzz of New York and wanting to bring his wife and two very young children (then aged just one and two) back home to enjoy a “full English education” instead. One of his new clients would provide the solution. Life magazine was seeking to make major changes to its London operation, and wanted Wergan to be “their independent agent in London, provided that I could find the backing of an established agency which was not already in the news field.” When he confided with Landau about Life’s offer, the solution seemed obvious. Ray should come and work for him in London. They’d both benefit from dealing with Life, and the tie-up would also provide a means whereby Landau could eventually arrange a
Seeing all those who came to visit Landau allowed Wergan the opportunity to regularly exchange pleasantries with visitors from the comics world, too. “I knew Chip Goodman casually, and would say ‘Hello’ to Stan Lee, but I had so much on my plate,” he admits. Thus, he remained unaware of any of the details of Al’s meetings during this time. With everything going so well, Landau was then finally free to make the break he’d been seeking for years, and by 1968 he’d moved back to New York, leaving Wergan in sole charge of the High Holborn office. Nevertheless, Ray would still see Al from time to time. “He came back to London many times during 1970-72,” Wergan continues, “and Chip Goodman came as often as Al did. Chip and Stan kept on about Stan’s international dream.” As I previously wrote, that would eventually come about almost by accident. A failed collaboration with Leonard Matthews’ company Martspress—which packaged comics for various publishers, such as IPC’s recently canceled second volume of TV21—left Marvel with a substantial investment that needed recouping after an electrician’s union strike had forced them to abort the launch of their planned new UK comic.
Far Too Tempting To Resist Unlike Marvel’s former owner Martin Goodman, both Stan Lee and Sol Brodsky had always been keen on doing more with the magazine format. When Lee was promoted to President/Publisher in 1972 and freed of his subservience to Chip Goodman (who remained for a time, however, in charge of the rest of Magazine Management’s line), this presented the perfect opportunity, not only to save the British project, but also to recommence the publication of magazines in the US. Envisioning a new “Special Projects” division as the way to encompass both ventures, Stan knew exactly who he wanted to helm it: Sol Brodsky. Since the mid-1960s Brodsky had excelled as Marvel’s production manager, and had more recently helped to shepherd into print both editions of The Spectacular Spider-Man magazine before Goodman had
Stan Lee, Al Landau, & The Transworld Connection
Pow! And Wham! (Above:) The Ditko & Kirby cover of the first “merger” issue, #59 (dated 2nd of March, 1968)—i.e., when the previously separate weekly comics Pow! and Wham! were combined henceforth into a single every-seven-days publication. Roy Thomas remembers Stan explaining to him in the early 1970s that this was the way such mags tended to go in Britain—they started out with higher circulations, generally wound down slowly, and then combining two magazines into one would raise the circulation again... for a time. Roy recalls thinking that things seemed to work backward in England from the way they did in the States! It seemed that way to Stan, too, but he was determined Marvel would live and thrive under the system—and it did, for some years. Courtesy of Rob Kirby. (Top right:) The first page in Pow! and Wham! #59 was a black-&-white rearrangement of two pages from Fantastic Four #29 (Aug. 1964), with script by Stan Lee, art by Jack Kirby & Chic Stone. But where are the credits? [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
ingloriously squashed the project. There was only one problem— Brodsky no longer worked for Marvel.
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capable of replacing him as editor. Contrary to what has previously been written elsewhere, Skywald continued after Brodsky’s departure until 1975, closing only after losing a circulation battle that they felt was squeezing them off newsstands. It’s undoubtedly a mark of Stan’s respect for Sol’s abilities that he was the first person to be approached as part of this new drive to expand beyond the boundaries of traditional color comicbooks (honoring Lee’s personal spelling here). By late spring, a meeting was held in Ray Wergan’s office in London, and it was here that Landau, Lee, and Chip Goodman, representing Magazine Management,
Keen to expand his own interests in magazine production further, Sol had left Marvel in 1970 to form a company called Skywald in partnership with publisher Israel Waldman, leaving John Verpoorten to take over his former position at Marvel. Stan was undaunted, though, and succeeded in dangling Happy Families this enticing new project in front of Sol and winning him back at a time when Brodsky had become disillusioned Al Landau with his wife and children in with the new company he co-owned. Informing Waldman a photo taken c. 1967. that he had decided to return to Marvel, Brodsky’s parting Courtesy of grandson recommendation was that Al Hewetson (coincidentally, Robert Landau. another former Marvel employee) would be more than
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The Man Who Succeeded Stan Lee As President of Marvel
Charles (“Chip”) Goodman in a candid photo snapped by comics artist Alan Kupperberg in 1975, when Chip and his father Martin were putting out the Atlas/Seaboard line of comics to compete with Marvel.
all agreed on a rescue plan. They would dissolve the partnership with Martspress and go it alone… oh, and they needed to launch the comic that same autumn, too. Ray Wergan had been asked to sit in on their discussion “as a courtesy,” he notes, “seeing as it was my office.” Because of this, when it came to deciding who should supervise the London end of the operation, it seemed obvious that Ray should oversee things until a permanent manager was appointed. That never happened, and Wergan would become integral to its success.
With an editor, and former Odhams employee, named Pippa Melling already on the payroll as part of the abandoned Martspress project, Wergan immediately began setting up print and distribution contracts, while attending to all the other tasks needed to run a magazine. Meanwhile, over in New York, the returned Brodsky would quickly hire a dedicated “British Bullpen” (made up of Americans, of course) to assemble all the material needed for every issue, including the production of new covers and posters. This would be run out of a small area of the main New York Bullpen. Following some early help from various hands, including the recently arrived Jim Salicrup, their first comic hit newsagents across Britain on the final day of September 1972. The Mighty World of Marvel was an immediate success, shifting around 500,000 copies a week to begin with, and by Halloween the New York office had added a new member of the team, as Tony Isabella became the first associate editor on the British comics to receive an in-print credit. My earlier article in Back Issue picks up the story from here.
All Hail The (New) Chief! At some point during 1973, Stan would step down as President, but instead of Chip being asked to take over the now vacant role of President, as he and his father still hoped, Sheldon Feinberg, the head of Marvel’s new owner, chose Al Landau instead. While I’ve yet to come across any documentation relating to this sudden change, given both Martin Goodman’s
Ol’ Greenskin Goes Global! This free gift showing a full-color Kirby Hulk was a transfer that you could put onto a notebook or locker or whatever—and was given away with the very first edition of Marvel UK’s The Mighty World of Marvel #1 in 1972. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
previous, and Lee’s then-current, close working relationship with Landau, it seems reasonable to suggest that Stan may well have been asked to nominate his replacement. Any shock at Al’s appointment would have been understandable, but he was evidently happy to accept the position in addition to his continued management of Transworld’s many activities. Again, Sol Brodsky contrary to what has (on right) with Stan Lee and The Green previously been thought, it Goblin, at a 1970s Easter Egg event at the transpires that Chip would White House. What can we say? Guess remain with Marvel until at you had to be there—and Stan and Sol least late 1973; his presence were! Thanks to Ger Apeldoorn. is recorded in the summary of a meeting with a London advertising agency, where Marvel’s future plans for their British division were discussed. With scant knowledge within the busy Bullpen at the time with regards to the role Transworld was actually playing in expanding the Marvel brand, this has led to subsequent speculation that a conflict of interest may have been created by the overlap between Landau’s two jobs. The implication being that publishing decisions were now being made in ways that would also be favorable to Transworld. Having worked closely with Al for many years, Ray Wergan is uniquely placed to reveal the truth of the matter—“it’s just not something he would have ever done,” he replies in (the now, long since deceased) Landau’s defense. If anything, Marvel’s success simply meant more material that Transworld could supply to other countries—hence Al’s 1974 suggestion that Marvel create an international band of heroes, which led to the regeneration of the X-Men comic—so everyone benefited. Thanks to their close connections to the press and broadcast media, the Transworld organization was also perfectly placed to provide a suitably nurturing environment for its UK division to prosper. This made it easy for its London office to link up with other companies for competitions, procure manufacturers to produce exclusive merchandise, and to arrange comprehensive media coverage for new title launches. Stan Lee would
Stan Lee, Al Landau, & The Transworld Connection
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Ray Wergan is the gent more or less in the center of this 1976 photo, talking to Stan Lee (on right) on one of the latter’s numerous trips to Britain in conjunction with Marvel UK. Also seen, at left, is Ted Polhemus. As was pointed out when this photo ran in Back Issue #63, Wergan—who contributed it—is wearing a “Make Mine Marvel” button from 1966! The pic was taken at London’s Roundhouse Theatre. Above left is a note from Wergan. Rob Kirby says: “The message from Ray to Stan and Ivan Snyder, etc., is a good example of his vigilance with regards to keeping costs down, a trait which I gather Brodsky shared.” Indeed! Above right is what Rob calls a “small, jokey memo from Stan to Ray (Wergan), refer[ring] to the recently launched Whoopee comic from rival IPC, which was begun at the start of March 1974. All these notes are courtesy of the Stan Lee Archive at the University of Wyoming’s American Heritage Center.
then fly over and scoot around the country, talking to newspapers, doing radio interviews, and appearing on both local and national TV stations, all of which he naturally took in his stride. By now, London also had a small Bullpen of its own, overseen by art editor Alan Murray from 1973 to 1978, and staffed by a number of young production artists fresh out of college. During his time as editor, Neil Tennant threw himself into promotional activities and was closely involved with Stan’s visits to promote The Titans at the Roundhouse in 1975, and the following autumn when Lee toured the country for the launch of Captain Britain. With paper shortages a growing problem in Britain then, another advantage of Transworld’s global network was that Wergan could rely on the skills of his print buyer, John Howe from Alsace, to secure better deals overseas. For a time, its comics would be printed in Barcelona, and then in Finland. Eventually, a more
favorable deal was reached on the UK mainland, with a company based in Alloa, Scotland. Yet, as Wergan was keen to point out, despite using a Swedish-based plant, which meant that extra time had to be factored in for the sea crossing, “the New York Bullpen coped brilliantly. Despite the distances involved, we never had a serious problem with the Finnish operation.”
What Happened Next Al Landau would continue as Publisher at Marvel until 1975, and, after Jim Galton took over, he gradually eased away from the now successful UK comics line. His mother would live to see his success, dying in 1986 at her home in Los Angeles at the age of 86, having survived her husband by over three decades. By 1976, British Marvel were issuing seven regular comics a week, before easing back as markets on both sides of the Atlantic began to contract. Ray Wergan’s association with Marvel would end in 1978, after Stan Lee commissioned Dez Skinn to write a report suggesting ways they could turn sales around, and then persuaded Skinn to put the ideas into action himself. Wergan would continue
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The Man Who Succeeded Stan Lee As President of Marvel
Letters From The President to run Transworld (UK) Ltd. until his retirement in 1986, selling the picture library to another agency called Scope. As for Stan Lee, the siren song of Hollywood was calling, and two years after helping Skinn promote Hulk Comic in the spring of 1979, he would help set up Marvel Productions in Los Angeles. It was left to incoming editor-in-chief Jim Shooter to assume overall responsibility for Marvel’s British division. Shooter and his successor Tom DeFalco would visit the London offices on occasion, but were much more hands-off than had previously been the case, mainly because production of the comics had been completely transferred to Britain after Skinn had taken over back in 1978. While Marvel would ultimately be forced to sell off its pioneering British division to Panini in late 1999, after miraculously escaping from Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, the variety of formats, content, and publication frequencies now employed by Panini would have seemed an impossible dream back in the mid-1970s. In seeking to spread the Marvel wor(l)d right across the world, Lee’s British legacy can perhaps best be observed in the flourishing careers of all those artists and writers who’d once read the British comics before coming to prominence in the field in the 1980s and beyond. If Stan hadn’t lived his British dream, then I would have undoubtedly spent the last three decades in a very different way, too, if only because I wouldn’t have ended up researching what they published, and the history behind it all. It’s impossible to say if it would have been a more enjoyable time, but I doubt it. I’m just sorry that an opportunity never arose for me to personally convey to Stan just how much those early weekly comics meant to so many of us over here. I have a sneaking feeling he knew that already, though!
to the Publisher, on Transworld stationery, on business matters relating to the sale of Marvel’s pages abroad. Note Stan’s handwritten notice to Sol Brodsky. Thanks to Rob Kirby, who found these, as well, in Stan’s archives at the U. of Wyoming’s American Heritage Center.
When not working for a local college, Rob Kirby is feverishly laboring to conclude the final writing for the history that now forms the bulk of From Cents to Pence! – The Definitive Guide to Marvel’s British Comics (1951-2018). He also keeps threatening to finally release another edition of re: VOX, the specialist music magazine devoted to Ultravox and all their related solo artists and bands. The first Marvel UK comic Rob bought was #142 of Spider-Man Comics Weekly (1st November 1975), with a memorably atypical cover, and he became a regular reader about forty issues after that, although by then the comic had transmuted into a weird, but wonderful, landscape format as Super Spider-Man with the Superheroes. This was just in time to catch The Invaders’ debut in Britain.
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Stan Lee, Al Landau, & The Transworld Connection
Sidebar
Al, Myself, & Others by Roy Thomas
I
seem to be one of the relatively few early-1970s Marvel people besides Stan Lee who ever reflected on his own relationship with Al Landau—but perhaps that’s not too surprising, since my two-years-plus stint as editor-in-chief overlapped roughly the first half of his tenure, and few other Marvel editorial staff besides Stan, Len Wein, and Marv Wolfman ever had many dealings with him. At the start of this intriguing and much-needed study, Rob Kirby seems to refer obliquely to my “assuming” in the 2014 Taschen tome 75 Years of Marvel: From the Golden Age to the Silver Screen that Transworld was owned by Cadence Industries (which of course did own Marvel at that time), because I wrote of it as being “another company within the Cadence umbrella.” I’m not sure I ever actually believed Cadence owned Transworld, as opposed to the two of them having a relationship; but my imprecise writing at that point does make it seem as if I did. Fact is, I don’t believe I ever thought much about the matter, one way or the other. The few other commenters and their statements about Al Landau, mostly known from Sean Howe’s basically fine 2012 book Marvel Comics: The Untold Story, include:
though it didn’t make me think the better of him, since I felt his motivation mean-spirited. Marvel wound up acquiring most of the artists we wanted anyway, without my having to go globe-trotting at a time when I was trying to keep my first marriage together. I don’t specifically recall the occasion Howe recounts on which I broached to Landau the suggestion of “selling comics directly to comic stores at a discount” and Al supposedly looked at me “as if I were an idiot... [and told] me that that would just make the wholesalers and retailers mad.” But it does sound like me... and like Laudau. You tell me which of us was right. I also suspected Landau of being behind—or at least favorably disposed toward—the notion foisted on me one day by Connie LaRocca, the woman who sold ad space in our comics, that we sell advertisers every right-hand page in the interior of Marvel’s comics. I managed to scotch that idea, to her considerable annoyance. Again, you tell me if I was right or wrong in suspecting that such a plan would have rendered our stories all but unreadable. On one thing, though, Al was at least partly right. Stan recounted to me, not long before I stepped down, that Landau didn’t feel I was a “team player.” I objected—and by my lights, I was right. But probably so was Al, by his. We had different ideas of what loyalty to Marvel Comics meant, and in his view (and, partly due to his influence, probably that of Stan himself), I was increasingly wanting in that department. I felt myself ever more trapped between the need to promulgate the official policies of
Magazine Management president/publisher Chip Goodman’s wife Roberta is quoted as saying how upset the two of them were in 1973 at learning that Landau, rather than Chip, was being tapped by Cadence head honcho Sheldon Feinberg to take Stan’s place as Marvel’s president. Former Marvel publisher Martin Goodman and his wife Jean, Roberta Goodman said, were “very upset about this.... They thought Al was a total bulls***ter. He didn’t know anything about the business at all; it wasn’t his background. He’d used Chip as a way to get to Shelly, and snuck in between the two of them.” Additionally, according to Howe’s account (the source of which the reader must assume to also be Roberta Goodman): When Chip’s contract was about to expire and he and Landau had a disagreement, Landau pointedly asked Chip: “Do you want to be fired or do you want to quit?” Howe (see pp. 149-150 of his book) slightly misreports the details of one of the initial rifts between Landau and myself. The author/historian reports (and it’s hard to figure what other direct or indirect source besides myself he might’ve had besides myself, since only Landau, Stan, and I were involved) that, because of “the threat of an industry-wide artists’ union” in 1973 or ’74, I “wanted to fly to the Philippines to recruit artists who’d work at cheaper rates,” and that Landau nixed the trip on the grounds that it would be “too much like a vacation” for me. The latter quote from Landau—at least as Stan relayed it to me at the time—is 100% accurate; but I recall the relative inexpense of such talented artists as Tony DeZuniga and Alfredo Alcala and the others working out of the DeZunigas’ studio in Manila as being our main motivation, although it’s not impossible that attempts to form a comicbook union may have played some part in the decision. But the plan to send me halfway around the world to a nation where a Communist insurrection was going on rather noisily (at least on some of the outlying islands) was hatched pretty much by Stan on his own, and I merely acquiesced reluctantly, having no desire whatever to go to the Philippines for business or pleasure at that time. I was actually relieved when Landau vetoed what he deemed my “vacation”—
(L.) Miller Time! The cover of the L. Miller company’s Mystic #30 (1963), which contained primarily reprints from Charlton’s pre-Code This Magazine Is Haunted! [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
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management and my background as a writer (and even fan), and I found myself unable and unwilling—unlike Stan—to completely take the company’s side against staff and/or freelancers. So it was probably best that I left the editor-in-chief job, which I did, around Labor Day of ’74. Whether or not Landau was in favor of Stan’s agreeing to my insistence on having a writer/editor contract if I were to remain working for Marvel, I again have no idea. Nor did I care. One of the most interesting stories about Landau in Howe’s tome (p. 166) is one I don’t even recall hearing about at the time. Reportedly, in 1975, Len Wein, then editor of the color comics, objected to Landau’s decision to remove artist Ross Andru from his regular Amazing Spider-Man assignment so he could draw the Marvel/DC joint project Superman vs. Spider-Man—with Al snapping to Len that that decision was “none of your f***ing business.” [Asterisks added.] Len, according to Howe, “hurled himself at Landau,” and his buddy/co-editor Marv Wolfman had to separate them. This apparently was one of the final straws that led to Wein leaving the main editorial job—but you’d have to ask Marv what transpired that day. Maybe one of these days I’ll ask him. The most controversial assertion Howe makes (pp. 169-170) is that Landau, while succeeding in giving Cadence Industries the impression that he had “turned Marvel around,” was actually engaged in what one unnamed Cadence executive later is quoted as calling a sort of “Ponzi scheme” that manipulated print-run and sell-through numbers to hide the fact that “his estimates [of sales] were way overblown. He was running the company into the ground.” Once again, I’ve no personal knowledge on this matter, since I wasn’t intimately involved with those numbers when I was editor-in-chief and, by 1975, I’d left that job several months and all thought thereof behind. I’ll have to let others hash out the truth of the thing.
Nor do I have any more information than Howe gives that Cadence head Feinberg, his suspicions raised about the above matter, dispatched Barry Kaplan as Marvel’s chief financial officer and named “a recently hired Curtis Circulation consultant named Jim Galton” as vice-president. Reportedly, the pair examined Marvel’s profit-and-loss statements “and didn’t like what they saw,” so that ere long Landau returned from a vacation to find Galton sitting in his presidential chair. “Didn’t Shelly [Feinberg] tell you?” Galton reputedly asked. Howe goes on: Galton and Kaplan took Landau out to the Players Club for lunch. At the table, Galton broke the news that he was personally replacing Landau as president of Marvel and Magazine Management. Landau grabbed his chest and fell to the floor as Galton and Kaplan looked on. Whatever the precise facts behind the above scenario, Al Landau’s reign as Marvel’s president came to a sad end; and, despite my animosity toward the man, I took scant pleasure in reading Howe’s account years later. I suspect that, if Al and I had met in some other time and place, and under different circumstances, we might have gotten along well enough. But Marvel Comics in 1973-74 was definitely not that time and place. All the same, I’m happy to be able to utilize this Stan Lee tribute issue of Alter Ego for Rob Kirby (and, to a lesser extent, Sean Howe and myself) to lay out the history, and the various pros and cons, of Al Landau’s work at Transworld and for Marvel/ Magazine Management. He was most definitely a part of Marvel’s long and colorful history—and history should always be as all-encompassing as possible.
X-Men Marks The Spot! It’s often been related (mostly by Roy Thomas, admittedly) that, in mid-1974, in a Marvel editorial meeting consisting of himself (as editor-in-chief), publisher Stan Lee, president Al Landau, and production manager John Verpoorten—and possibly art director John Romita—Landau ventured the opinion that it might be smart for Marvel to launch a mag featuring a team of super-heroes from various foreign lands in which Marvel wanted to sell more comics. He pointed out that, even if said title only broke even financially in the US, it would almost certainly turn a profit because of sales of that material to comics publishers in the various nations involved—which, though not discussed in detail that day, would have been places like the UK, Ireland, Canada, Australia, maybe New Zealand and South Africa, and even a few non-English-speaking countries such as Mexico, Brazil, France, West Germany, Spain, Japan, or whoever. All present immediately realized the notion’s worth. Sure, it would also benefit Landau’s own company Transworld—but all that really mattered was that it would probably be a good thing for Marvel. Since Stan and Roy (especially the latter) had been consciously looking for a way to revive The X-Men, who hadn’t had their own mag for nearly half a decade—and since Ye Editor had already directed writer Len Wein to develop a Canadian-origined character called The Wolverine in an issue of The Incredible Hulk—Roy at once proposed a new version of The X-Men comicbook, in which a couple of the original team would go on a worldwide hunt to gather mutants from various nations. Stan instantly approved the idea... Roy quickly assigned writer Mike Friedrich and artist Dave Cockrum to develop the concept... and the result, some months later, was Giant-Size X-Men #1 (May 1975), although by then Roy had resigned as editor-in-chief, and new color-comics head Len had decided to script the new series himself. Sure, The X-Men would almost certainly have found a regular berth again sooner or later, with or without Landau’s suggestion, since everyone from Stan on down wanted them to return... and it’s true that, somewhere along the way, the idea that the new mutants would hail from Englishspeaking or at least “Western” nations (and not, say, Kenya, let alone the Soviet Union) got lost... but the irrefutable fact remains that Al Landau’s tossed-out suggestion led to the particular time and form the revived magazine took. And, of course, the new X-Men, especially as soon helmed by writer Chris Claremont and artists Dave Cockrum and (ere long) John Byrne, went on over time to become one of the biggest sales successes in Marvel history, spawning a virtual four-color industry—and, not so incidentally, the company’s first successful big-screen super-hero franchise. Art by Gil Kane & Dave Cockrum. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Stan Lee, Al Landau, & The Transworld Connection
Postscript by Rob Kirby
Two Sides To Every Story?
I
n creating this extract on Albert Landau that stresses the importance of his role in helping to sell Marvel’s work overseas, as well as in helping Stan Lee set up the company’s British division, I realize that—in plucking a few paragraphs here and there from the working draft of my (admittedly) long-overdue book From Cents to Pence!—I’ve painted quite a different picture of Landau from what many Alter Ego readers may have read elsewhere… at least in the few places that anything has been written about his career. Getting the balance between differing points of view, or conflicting reports, is the major challenge in writing any history. Most of the information about Landau and his family background presented here came initially from the many conversations I’ve had with Ray Wergan, who had worked closely with him for some years, as you’ve now read; that was further fleshed out by my own research as I began looking further into various aspects of the story Ray was revealing. This is how I came to discover the full story behind Landau’s first and middle names, Albert Einstein—which I’d first learnt from Sean Howe’s engaging and forthright 2012 book Marvel Comics: The Untold Story. Basically, the famed physicist Albert Einstein had struck up a friendship with his father Jacob Landau and had later provided some funding to support The Jewish Telegraphic Agency during the inter-war years. A close friendship had come out of their regular correspondence, with Einstein later being asked (and accepting) to be the godfather to their firstborn son.
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the perspective of his interactions with staff at Marvel in New York after he took over from Lee as president for two-plus years. Based on a myriad of personal conversations (not with Landau himself) conducted by Howe, the overall impression formed from reading Marvel Comics: The Untold Story paints a different picture of Landau as president of Marvel—that he forcefully made snap decisions over creative placements, over the heads of editorial—in the case of the Superman/Spider-Man team-up for instance, where he and editor Len Wein nearly came to blows—and was also keen to sue Martin Goodman’s Atlas-Seaboard Comics for any overt plagiarism, at least until that rival line rapidly imploded. With the passing of time, and with no personal interviews or contemporary accounts to dig into, building a fuller picture of the man from these differing impressions is much more difficult now. As you’ve seen, I’ve suggested another possibility, based on what I’ve uncovered, as to how Landau could have been selected to become president of Marvel, given his previously unrecorded close working relationship with Goodman, and then Lee. In the end, the difficulty with writing about certain folks who crop up in comics history is that they often weren’t interviewed at all (e.g., Ray Wergan had never spoken about his deep involvement with the UK division, so tracking him down was a landmark moment, and added a whole new dimension to my work, reshaping what I’d already written into something far more complex than I could have guessed), whereas Stan Lee and others were regular fixtures in the fan press, and in Lee’s instance the national and international press as well. Landau’s departure from Marvel was certainly a sudden one. From the only published account thus far, those speaking to Sean Howe show someone trying to stabilize Marvel but getting caught up in the way business was conducted before the direct market came into existence as a potential method of solving distribution discrepancies. Returning from vacation in 1975, Landau is said to have been shocked to find Jim Galton at his desk, and collapsed in shock at a subsequent lunch with Barry Kaplan and Galton after being told that Sheldon Feinberg had decided to replace him. I’ve since discovered that Landau, by 1981, took a step back from Transworld, with Elsa Zion appointed to take over as president.
I also, briefly, came into contact with Beryl Clampton, who’d joined Transworld (UK), Ltd., two years after Ray Wergan, and who provided Who Do That Voodoo? secretarial services for Landau This undated 7th issue of the British reprint title Voodoo (from whenever he was visiting the UK. L. Miller) contained mystery stories from several different Apparently, “he always stayed at the publishers, including a Kirby-penciled story and others from Savoy,” Clampton discloses. “I would late early-’60s, plus other yarns that look to be from Charlton get a phone call at some ungodly and Ajax/Farrell. It was this type of multi-company mishmash hour to get there as soon as possible. that Marvel-booster Stan Lee started Marvel UK to avoid. [TM & He expected 110%, but he was very © the respective trademark & copyright holders.] generous financially.” One thing in Had I been working on my book particular stands out for her about some decades earlier than I did start, and discovered at that time Landau: “He was so ethical—even to the point of not handling his involvement with the UK side of Marvel, I would have loved some material that would have made him a fortune. Ray taught me to have spoken to Al Landau, and with Sol Brodsky, too. Still, at a lot, too—a very interesting and amusing person. He had a lot of least I’ve been lucky enough to talk to many, many others, on both friends on all the newspapers, and his experience with them was sides of the Atlantic, who all played their own parts in the story of invaluable.” Marvel in Britain over the decades. Recording the Apart from a few lines in passing in various interviews over thoughts, stories, and history of the medium for the years, including by the editor of this very magazine, it fell to posterity remains a vital task as the years pass, lest Howe’s book to contain the first overview of Landau, mostly from that information be lost forever.
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My (Admittedly Minor) Encounters With STAN LEE by Bill Schelly
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Bill Schelly & Stan Lee\ That’s Bill on the left in a recent pic, and Stan Lee “at home in the early 1960s” on the right, not long before he and artist/co-plotter Steve Ditko produced the superb Amazing Spider-Man #7 (Dec. 1963). This was the first Marvel comicbook that Bill ever bought, drawn in by Steve’s excellent artwork and Stan’s seductive verbiage. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
f there hadn’t been Stan Lee, then someone would have had to invent him.
Wait—that’s exactly what happened: A Jewish kid from New York City named Stanley Martin Lieber invented “Stan Lee,” the character most of us grew up admiring—the fun-loving uncle who shamelessly bragged about Marvel Comics, who wrote many of them, who loved comicbooks and, yes, who loved us, his fans. I first heard of Stan Lee in the fall of 1963, when I pulled a copy of Amazing Spider-Man #7 from the dark recesses of a giant magazine rack at my local drugstore. The first cover blurb by Stan that I read was: “Here is Spider-Man as you like him… Fighting! Joking! Daring! Challenging the most dangerous foe of all, in this—the Marvel Age of Comics!” I thought: that’s different. DC comics didn’t have cover blurbs like that, except maybe putting the title of the story on the cover –certainly nothing so seemingly personal, addressing me, the potential reader (“as you like him…”). Intrigued, I opened it and read: “Never let it be said that the Marvel Comics Group doesn’t respond to the wishes of its readers!” And then, outright bragging: “A tale destined to rank among the very greatest in this… The Marvel Age of Comics!” “What’s ‘The Marvel Age of Comics’?” I asked myself. “It sounds like there’s a whole bunch of different comics being published that I’ve never heard of!” By the time I finished reading Spidey #7, I was thoroughly bowled over by the fabulous Ditko artwork and Stan’s deft, humorous script. Turning to the letter column, “The Spider’s Web,” I found letters that were fairly typical of a Green Lantern or The Flash letter column, but the answers were “straight from the shoulder” responses that seemed to take me inside the comicbook business. The “Special Announcements Section” began: “Here it is, the section we like best! A place for us to get together, relax a while, and chew the fat about comic mags.” It then went on to talk about the two newest Marvel comics, The Avengers and The X-Men, and the changes in a couple of their other titles: “Don’t delay in letting us know how you like the big changes in Tales to Astonish and Tales of Suspense.” Ant-Man had become Giant-Man, and Iron Man had a new suit of armor. “Hope you like it!” Stan said, adding, “That’s probably the most unnecessary phrase ever written! If you don’t like the mags we edit for you, we’ll shoot ourselves!”
The column ended with: “Okay, time to close shop for now. So let’s put away our little webs till next ish, when we’ll bring you another book-length epic which all you armchair critics can tear apart to your heart’s content! Till then, keep well, keep happy, and keep away from radioactive spiders!” Suddenly I realized I had a grin on my face. I really
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One of those copies was sent to Stan Lee, c/o Marvel Comics Group. Why had I sent Stan a copy? To my (by this time) 13-year-old mind, it was no more complicated than “I love Marvel comics” so if I send one to Marvel, maybe Stan—or more likely Flo Steinberg, whose letters had appeared in Yancy Street Journal— might respond. I somehow had the temerity to include a request for an interview with Stan for the next issue of my fanzine. Flo responded, and said Stan would answer a few written questions if I would send them along. When Stan’s answers to my questions arrived, I was disappointed that he had merely scribbled very brief answers to my questions. But, they were still from “Smilin’ Stan,” so I dutifully included them in Super Heroes Anonymous #2 (May 1965). As essentially worthless as the “interview” is today, it’s still among the earliest ones Stan did for a fanzine. But not as early as the one in Crusader #1, which was conducted in late 1964. (See pg. 39 of Stuf’ Said! from TwoMorrows for a portion of it.) I seem to recall that there were one or two other “questionnaire” interviews that appeared in fanzines around this time, much like mine. And Stan was famously interviewed by Ted White for Castle of Frankenstein magazine in 1965 (not published until 1968). (That talk was
That’s Really “Special”! The “Special Announcements Section” was unlike anything at DC comics. Lee managed to make the plugs for upcoming Marvel publications into what felt like a personal interchange with the reader. The illo nicely reminds the reader who The Sandman was—although it was all news to Bill! The last paragraph “sealed the deal” as far as he was concerned! [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
liked this guy, whoever Stan Lee was. But, er … “Next ish”—What’s an “ish”….? I contend that any comicbook fan who read Amazing Spider-Man #7 as his first Marvel title would be instantly, irrevocably hooked—all in one fell swoop (of The Vulture)! Because not only was the story astoundingly good and incredibly well-drawn, but the hero was a teenager, and the people who wrote the book seemed to respect my intelligence. Seduction, thy name is Stan Lee! I was just 12 years old when I discovered this comicbook, and the world of Marvel Comics. I would have been shocked if I’d known that I would have a few encounters with Stan in the ensuing years. No, I don’t claim to have been a friend or fan who knew Stan quite well… but, in remembering what Stan means to me, I do recall these minor encounters quite clearly. That being the case, as a tribute to Stan and what he meant to me in my life, I’m going to share them now.
Encounter #1 It’s February 1965, about the time Fantastic Four #39 (“A Blind Man Shall Lead Them!”) hit the stands, when the first encounter took place. I had discovered the wonderful phenomenon of comics fandom several months earlier, had received my first fanzines (Batmania, Yancy Street Journal, RBCC), and had published my own. Thirty-five copies of Super-Heroes Anonymous #1 were shoved into a neighborhood mailbox, and—voila! I was a publisher!
And Stan The Man Shall Lead Them! Time jump: By the time Bill was publishing fanzines in early 1965, Fantastic Four #39 was on the stands. (And a great issue it was!) Pencils by Jack Kirby, inks by Chic Stone and (on Daredevil figure) Wally Wood. Thanks to the Grand Comics Database. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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Sounds Like The Editor Wishes He’d Been Anonymous! Super Heroes Anonymous #2 featured a cover based on a sketch Jack Kirby sent to me, which Bill feels “I traced and essentially ruined it. Inside, I did a little better on the Dr. Strange illo that Steve Ditko had sent me, running it opposite the pulse-pounding interview with Stan the Man.” [Captain America TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
“SHA”-Zam! Bill says: “This is it, fellow fans— my earth-shattering interview with Stan Lee (under the column title ‘Tidbits’) in SHA #2 (May 1965). It was sure nice of Stan to respond to my questions, even if briefly.”
My (Admittedly Minor) Encounters With Stan Lee
reprinted in its entirety in The Stan Lee Universe from TwoMorrows, edited by Danny Fingeroth and Roy Thomas.)
turned and continued wherever he was going.
In any case, the silly little interview in 1965 was, for the time being, the last contact I had with Stan for years. The next communiqué I received from Marvel was written by our own Rascally Roy, several months after he was hired as a staff writer by Stan. But that’s a story for another time (and is recounted in my interview with Roy in Bill Schelly Talks with the Founders of Comic Fandom, Vol. 2, from Pulp Hero Press).
Dumfounded, I wondered where or how Stan had seen a copy of the book. I don’t think I would have sent him a copy. More likely, someone showed it to him, and he remembered what the cover looked like. (The cover of the first edition was by Nils Osmar.)
Encounter #2 Jump into your time machines, and meet me in 1995. Hey, that was easy, wasn’t it? Thirty years had passed. Marvel Comics changed my life, as had the experience of being part of comic fandom in the 1960s and early 1970s. My second contact with Stan Lee had two parts. In 1995, I was sitting at a table at the San Diego Comic-Con, selling copies of my new, self-published book The Golden Age of Comic Fandom. Who should come wandering along sans entourage but Stan Lee, who noticed me sitting there. He walked up, pointed to my publication, and said, “That’s a wonderful book!” Then, with a brief wave, he
The Fandom Menace In 1999, when Bill published his second edition of The Golden Age of Comic Fandom, he put Stan’s remark about the book in giant letters on the back cover—without asking his permission. But Stan didn’t mind, as his subsequent postcard (reprinted at top right) revealed. [The Eye, The Eclipse, Human Cat TM & © Bill Schelly. Doctor Weird TM and © Gary Carlson & Edward DeGeorge; other art © Michael T. Gilbert.]
Part 2 of this encounter was through the mail. When the book went back to press in 1999, with a new cover by Michael T. Gilbert, I was assembling some blurbs for the back cover, and remembered Stan’s remark. I thought, “Oh, what the hell, I’m sure Stan won’t mind,” and emblazoned (in large letters) “‘A wonderful book!’—Stan Lee” on the book’s back cover. I intended to write Stan for permission, but I think I just figured, “Well, he said it—and I have a witness!” (The aforementioned Mr.
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All In Color For A Crime! Bill writes: “Unrelated to anything else in this article, I was honored in 1999 to be asked by Roy Thomas to draw up his idea of a ‘Stan Lee Roast’ cover, homaging Jack Kirby’s for Fantastic Four #1. (Text by Roy, obviously.) It appeared in Alter Ego, Vol. 3, #1 (1999)— but, for its appearance here, it has been specially colored by Randy Sargent.” See photo of the Roast octet on p. 122. [Art © Bill Schelly.]
Encounter #3 A few years later, I was writing a biography of Harvey Kurtzman. Since Harvey had worked for Timely from 1945 to 1948 or so, I asked Stan for a quote about him and received this on February 10, 2013: Hi, Bill, How’s this for Harvey K---? Harvey Kurtzman was one of the most talented, creative people in comics—or anywhere else. He was both an incredibly gifted humorist and a superb story-teller. His artwork and layouts were totally unique and his writing ability was awesome. His was a huge and inspiring talent and I’m grateful to have known him. – Stan Lee
Encounter #4 This isn’t actually a single encounter; it’s an amalgam of several e-mails I traded with Stan in 2013 and 2014 when I needed permission to use certain photos of him in my upcoming books, including The American Comic Book Chronicles: The 1950s. Stan always said “yes,” for which I was grateful. One time, he asked for a copy of a photo, because he hadn’t seen it before (or had forgotten seeing it).
Osmar, founder of the miniscule Marvel Fan Club a Go-Go, had seen the whole thing.) I did have enough class to send a copy of the printed book to Stan, hoping he wouldn’t object to the quote. I think I even enclosed a note about it. A few days later, I received one of those Spider-Man notecards that Stan was using at the time (there are probably hundreds of them out there, with this or that scribbled answer). On it, he wrote, “Hi Bill, The Golden Age of Comic Fandom is every bit as good as I said it was. Many thanks for sending me a copy. Wishing you much luck and success—Excelsior! Stan.” Thirty-three words that made my day! –week! …year! … decade! And, of course…. Stan’s personalized autograph.
Hence, my last interaction with Stan Lee was sending him a print of the photograph of himself for his own purposes. I can’t express how good it felt, giving something—even if just a small photograph— to a man who had given so much to me –not personally (since these encounters are small), but the “me” who was one of the legions of fans of Marvel Comics in its greatest era. NOTE: Please check out the series of new books that I’ve done through Pulp Hero Press: Bill Schelly Talks with the Founders of Comic Fandom, Vol. 1 & 2 (collected interviews, including new ones with the late Grass Green and the very present Roy Thomas). Also, don’t miss The Bill Schelly Reader, a trade paperback that collects my best prose pieces on the history of fandom and comics. If you’ve enjoyed my writing about Joe Kubert, Otto Binder, Jim Warren and Harvey Kurtzman, and the history of fandom, you’ll want this collection of my short pieces which come from such disparate magazines as The Comics Journal, Alter Ego, ACE magazine, Comic Buyer’s Guide, Big Bang Comics, and Paperback Parade (and maybe a couple of others). You can order these Pulp Hero Press books from Amazon.com, either in print form or as Kindle books. There’s info on them on my web site: www.billschelly.net, where you can find my e-mail address if you want to write to me. —Bill.
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STAN LEE In 1968 Transcribed by Steven Tice
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his interview was conducted in the Marvel Comics offices on either February 8 or 18th, 1968, for WRSU, the radio station broadcasting from the campus of Rutgers University in New Brunswick, New Jersey, and serving the greater Central New Jersey area. Further specifics are lost to time, but enjoy this conversation with the face of Marvel Comics, speaking to his beloved college audience. STAN LEE: Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to welcome you to the home of Marvel Comics, the Batty Bullpen. And now, as I look at this sea of happy, smiling faces and contented readers… I hope we’re not on. ANNOUNCER: That was Stan Lee, editor of the Marvel Comics Group. Over the past few years, Marvel comics have become some of the most popular reading matter on virtually every college campus in America today. WRSU went to New York to discuss the success of, and future plans, of Marvel Comics with Stan Lee. Here’s what he had to say to our panel of experts. INTERVIEWER #1: I was wondering, there may be some people who have maybe just seen them on the stands and figured they were another one other comicbook, or another brand of comicbooks, and I wondered how exactly you got started, and how did you revitalize some of the new characters that have been floating around, or how did you create your new ones? LEE: Well, actually, I think, for the first twenty years of our publishing history, it would be honest and fair to say that we were just another group of comicbooks. And then, about six years ago or
Photo Synthesis 1968 Marvel comics sported a house ad (above) where, for a measely $1, you could order an autographed photo of Marvel’s fearless leader. A planned series of pix of other Bullpenners never materialized. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
The School Of Hard Rocks English guitarist, singer, and songwriter Marc Bolan (frontman for the group T-Rex) began following Marvel Comics around age 20— and Stan played up their meeting in the Bullpen Bulletins page, in an onging effort to court the college-age audience. Above is Bolan’s interview from the UK’s Mighty World of Marvel #199 (July 21, 1976). Thanks to Robert Menzies for the scan. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
whenever, when we first brought out the premier issue of The Fantastic Four, we were kicking around ideas and wondering what to do, and it occurred to us, as I say, “Let’s try and do the kind of books that we would enjoy if we read comics. Let’s not try to do something that we think a ten-year-old will buy.” And we introduced the Fantastic Four, and our objective there was to violate all the rules, and to violate all the clichés. Heretofore, any books involving teams of superheroes had heroes who got along beautifully with each other, and were always successful, and always acted and reacted in very predictable ways. So we thought, “Why don’t we get a team of super-heroes who argue among themselves, and fight occasionally, are dissatisfied, want to quit, maybe they have money troubles, and so forth? They won’t wear costumes.” The first two issues of the FF, they didn’t even wear costumes. I learned that was a mistake. When the mail started coming in, the readers said, “Gee, that’s the greatest book in the world! Oh, we love it! You gotta get a lot more like it! But give them costumes. They gotta have costumes.” That was one of the little rules I learned that I wouldn’t have suspected: in a super-hero strip, you just need costumes, because the avid fans can’t really relate to them or something unless they’re
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year, and I don’t want to—. Really, the reason I’d like her to have a miscarriage is that I don’t have any idea what kind of baby to have, or what to do with him once she has the baby. I’m sorry we ever started this darned thing, although we’re going to have to go through with it. We and Sue are going to have to go through with it. INT #1: I’ve noticed that a lot of the characters have been developed athletically since they first came out, referring mostly to Spider-Man, The X-Men, and Johnny Storm. Do you want to keep bringing them out until they look more and more like regular comicbook characters, but they look less and less like people?
Meat On Their Bones As Kirby’s work got more impressionistic over time, even his scrawny, bookish Reed Richards packed on some serious muscle. From The Fantastic Four #83 (Feb. 1969), inks by Joe Sinnott. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
wearing colorful costumes—the characters, that is, not the fans. We then learned another rule. We learned that what we have to do with these characters is treat them like fairy tales for grown-ups. They all have some super-power, because that’s sort of the shtick. That’s the hook we hang the plot on. One fellow can walk on walls, or can burst into flame, or whatever. But if we can accept the fairy tale quality of the super-power, then we try to write everything else as realistically as possible. We sort of added another dimension to comicbook characters, and the college kids were the first ones to realize this, and to become fanatically fond of them. Thank goodness. INT #1: One thing that I noticed, I’ve never seen in any comicbook, and very rarely in a comic strip, whereby the main character, or one of the head characters, in the Fantastic Four, referring to getting married, and now Sue Storm is pregnant, and how the whole thing has just given a whole new dimension, family life. When they take off their costume, they’re still a character you can follow. LEE: Well, I would say that’s a key word, the unexpected. If we could make a reader feel that he doesn’t quite know what he’s going to get, that a character might die, or might get married, or—I’d love to have Sue have a miscarriage, but I dasn’t, because we announced earlier to some fans that they would have a baby this
LEE: Well, I’m sorry to hear you say that, because that was not my intention, and I think the artists, the different artists, just get a little overzealous. We have that trouble. Jack Kirby is so good at drawing muscular people, and he loves to do it so, that we have continuing arguments about it every month. He’s making Reed Richards look like Thor now, and, you know, originally Reed was sort of a slim, scientific type of guy. Marie Severin very often does that with the Hulk. She has—when the Hulk turns to Dr. Bruce Banner, he doesn’t look much less strong than he does when he’s the Hulk. This is just something that we try to catch. We’re not doing it intentionally, but, unfortunately, I guess the artists are so used to drawing muscular people that it’s hard for them to—now, you’re right about Spider-Man, and I have to talk to John Romita about that. He should look like just an ordinary, slender fellow, but he has been getting kind of stronglooking, himself. That’s our fault. It’s an oversight on our part. Not intentional. INT #1: But it looks like, just lately, they’ve been getting more and more handsome and muscular. LEE: Well, I’m glad to hear you mention that, and I’m going to make a note to go over this with a lot of the artists as soon as you leave, because this is a failing on our part. INT #1: Where would the ideas come from for a particular story? LEE: Well, I’d love to say they all come from me, but, actually, you never know. I’ll talk to an artist, or I’ll talk to one of our other editors or writers, and—you know, it’s a funny thing. Most of the ideas—people usually say, “How do you get your ideas? How do you think these things up month after month?” I sometimes wonder if the ideas are as important as the execution, because I think the ideas are about the easiest thing. Some of our best stories had ideas that were fairly simple and commonplace, but I feel, more than the idea, it’s the way you tell it, the way you present it. We’ve done stories that were quite successful with the readers, judging by the sales we’ve had and the mail we get, and then, after rereading the story, I would say to myself, “Well, the story was really nothing. It was just the hero meets a villain, fights him, defeats him, and then goes off into the night.” But I suspect it was the little subplots, and the little asides, and the little things and
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realism is having the characters talk and react, and, of course, you can only tell their reactions by what they’re saying, like real people. Therefore, the thing that we spend, I guess, about 99% of our time on is the dialogue. I will rewrite one sentence a dozen times if I don’t feel I’ve got it right. Now, I’m sure nobody else, certainly nobody at any other comic company, does this or worries about this. They’re—many of them are still writing these things the way they were being written twenty years ago. The hero sees the villain running down the street, he says, “There goes the monster! Let’s get ‘im!” That’s it, and it doesn’t matter what character it is, they all speak the same. They don’t have any different speech mannerisms. So we’re really hung up on this business of everybody has to talk in his own distinctive way. We wouldn’t have Daredevil really speak the way Captain America speaks, and we wouldn’t have Spider-Man speak the way Iron Man would speak. We try to get a shade of difference in each one, and we feel we know the characters that way. INT #1: There was a Captain America, and he’s not the same character now. What exactly made you bring him back instead of a new character. LEE: Oh, he’s really the same character. We’ve just tried to treat him like a real, living, breathing, rational human being instead of a cardboard figure. No, I felt, again, by reading the fan mail, and seeing how the readers liked costumed characters and the type of characters they liked, I felt that they would like Captain America. They would like his costume, they would like the concept behind Captain America, and we felt, well, let’s try it. And we proved to be right, because he’s terribly popular now. INT #1: I was wondering if there were any plans in the future to bring back Bucky?
Silent Stan When you’ve got a cover as powerful as this Kirby/Sinnot beaut from Daredevil #43 (Aug. 1968), no need to clutter it up with word balloons. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
depth, the characterization, and so forth, that we throw in that, if anything, makes our books a little better than some others. I think it’s those extra little touches rather than the basic ideas, because I think most of our ideas are pretty much the same from issue to issue. It’s practically the same plot all the time, just tackled from a different direction. INT #1: I noticed that you switch from writer and artist and everything, but they still manage to keep the same continuity of character from month to month. LEE: Well, I, of course, in the beginning, I tried to set the pace and to set the style, and now we’ve sort of got that established. The dialogue I have always felt is the most important thing. Just as in a radio show, certainly the dialogue is the most important thing, I think in a motion picture, or in a television show, it’s what the person says that matters. Good dialogue can make a very banal plot seem very important and very profound, and I think bad dialogue can make the greatest plot in the world seem corny and hackneyed. The one thing that everybody seems to go for is realism. It seems the more realistic you can be, the more successful you are, in any media. Now, to me, the thing that gives a story
LEE: No. I think—this is my own feeling, but I’m not crazy about teenage sidekicks for heroes. To me, there’s something a little corny about it. I’ve never even been able to sink my teeth into the whole Rick Jones, or Rick—you know, I never can remember his name, if it’s Rick Jones or Rick Brown. But in the relationship between the Hulk and Rick—somehow a teenage kid running around with an adult, to me this belongs with Batman and Robin, and it belongs with the old time comics. Unless they are really needed, unless it fits in with the characterization and with the plot. To just bring it
Just For (Side) Kicks... (Left:) Writer Roy Thomas likewise didn’t feel sidekicks were needed, and instead morphed Rick Jones into a modern Billy Batson who could “become” Captain Mar-Vell in 1968’s Captain Marvel #17 (Oct. 1969, with art by Gil Kane and Dan Adkins). (TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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in by the skin of its teeth, I would rather not. Maybe This lovely Don Heck/Wally Wood we’ll bring Bucky back page from The Avengers #20 someday, but, again, I think (Sept. 1965) showcases the evil this even would destroy the alliance between The Mandarin realism. Okay, they’re both and The Swordsman—except thought to be dead. We can The Swordsman would soon turn get away with some muddy much less evil. [TM & © Marvel excuse on how Captain Characters, Inc.] America came back to life, but to have to do the same thing with Bucky again might be straining the readers’ credulity just a little bit too much.
Villains Unite
INT #1: I’m finding the same thing—not necessarily the same thing, but quite close to the same thing—with your villains. LEE: Mm-hm. We bring them back, yeah. But that’s just one single villain at a time, and it’s almost like a game we play with the readers. If you read about Zemo coming back in the Captain America one, he didn’t. That’s not Zemo, that’s somebody taking his place. INT #1: I wish you hadn’t said that. LEE: Why is that? INT #1: You just ruined the comic now, next month. LEE: Forgive me. But I only mention that because we have had so many indignant letters from readers: “We thought you guys level with us, and you promised us months ago, when Zemo died, that he was dead, and when you kill a guy, he stays dead. Here he is, back again. We’ll never be able to trust you again.” And I’m heartbroken. I’d like to take all these guys by the hand and say, “Honest, you can trust us. It isn’t really Zemo.” INT #1: I’ve found that a lot of the villains that do come back, come back out of such things as atomic explosions, and cosmic energy, curtains put up in the sky by Galactus, and things like that. Kinda the way that Dr. Doom came back just recently. LEE: Well, we try to explain it. We may not always succeed. INT #1: Well, like, in the Mandarin special, the sole explanation given that I can remember was, “Do you think an atomic blast can stop The Mandarin?” LEE: Roy must have written that, bless him. INT #1: Actually, I would have been able to stop him. LEE: I would have thought so. I’ll have a little talk with Roy. INT #1: When I started reading these, I noticed that continued stories were not quite as prominent as they are now. When did you first start coming out with continued stories? LEE: Well, actually, we started it for two reasons. One, we felt we got better plots that way, because we were able to get more detail, and more depth, and so forth. Two, it made it easier for us. Instead of having—I was so busy in the beginning, I didn’t have a staff the size that it is now. I was doing just about everything myself, with a few artists, and the time it would take to discuss
a plot, maybe an hour, two hours, was time that I could ill afford. Now, if I could discuss a plot once with an artist and say, “Break this into two parts,” this would keep him going for forty pages, and it would be only one discussion for those forty pages, rather than having to discuss two plots to take care of forty pages. So somewhere along the line I saved a couple of hours, which was valuable. Now, many readers think that we do continued stories just to hook the reader and make sure he comes back next month. Actually, I think more readers dislike them than like them, so if we were just interested in keeping the readers happy and having them come back, I think we would discontinue the continued stories. But it is easier for us to turn out the books. If we’re working on one storyline for a few months, we can move a little faster. And, also, as I say, qualitatively, I think we can get better stories, just as we can get a better story in a magazine-length twenty-pager than we can in a ten-pager, and a ten-pager is better than a five-pager, and I think you’ll see the rationale behind that. If we have more pages to work with, we can tell the story a little more leisurely, get more character development, plot development, and so forth. INT #1: We’d like to know exactly just what goes on in the operation here. I see you’ve got all your covers and things posted up there, a lot of them that have not come out yet. I just wonder how far ahead you work on these. LEE: Well, I guess we work, you would consider it three months ahead. From the time that we start on a magazine, stat to write and draw it, it’s about three months before it hits the newsstands. And
1968 Stan Lee Interview
Reissues For Readers (Left:) Ditko cover to Marvel Tales #18 (Jan. 1969). As college students latched onto Marvel in the late 1960s, the company wisely reprinted their characters’ early adventures, to help readers get up to speed. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.] (Below:) The “split” books like Tales of Suspense (#62, Feb. 1965, shown here, with a Kirby/Ayers cover) became a thing of the past around 1968, as a new distribution deal meant Marvel was no longer limited in the amount of titles it could publish. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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because I don’t know it, but I usually head down there on Tuesdays and Thursdays and pick them up, and it’s amazing the stack they have. It’s easily three feet tall, just one magazine. LEE: Is that so? INT #1: The twenty-, twenty-five cent ones. I believe Marvel Tales was the last one I saw, stacked three feet high there. The next time I went back, a couple days later, it was about half that height. Of course, it was only after two days, so it was really amazing. LEE: Let me ask you a question. When you say that there are big stacks of our books on your campus door, do they carry the competition, also?
INT #1: Oh, yeah. Well, I never really noticed the size of the stacks, because I just see a stack of them over there. I just happened to look at this, though, and it seemed like they were, all the way down, the same name. In fact, it was. A three-foot stack of Marvel Tales. It was quite impressive. INTERVIEWER #2: A girl I knew was working in a news dealer service, and they used to get back all of the other brands, but very few of the Marvels came back.
the covers that are up there, you say a lot of them haven’t come out yet, I guess none of them have come out yet. They’re all the advance copies. The reason I keep them up there is, I have such a bad memory, if I didn’t look at them all the time I wouldn’t remember what they were, and what the last stories were. So I keep reminded of what our stories were, and also what our titles are. Sometimes I have a way of forgetting that, too. INT #1: Well, there’s so many of them, is it really hard to keep track of all the different…? LEE: Well, it’s sweet of you to give me an excuse. Actually, I’ve just got a bad memory. I’m sure somebody else could keep track of them. We have associate editor Roy Thomas in there who’s—he’s wonderful. He can remember what some character said in a story five months ago. I can’t remember what I just said to you when you walked in. INT #1: I think you could hire somebody, most people from around the Rutgers campus, to keep track of them and tell you exactly what’s going on. The issues come out Tuesday and Thursday in New Brunswick, and usually by Wednesday and Friday morning they’ve all been glommed up by the various students on campus. LEE: Well, I’m delighted to hear that. We’ll have to check our sales figures from that one particular area. INT #1: Well, there’s one particular place, which I won’t mention a name
LEE: I see. That’s great. INT #1: I’ve noticed that just recently you’ve been announcing some of your characters were going to go into their own magazines. For instance, you’re splitting up Captain America and Iron Man, and putting Captain America in his own magazine, and I see the first issue cover up there now. What is the reason for this? Basically, I thought that, before, you had them in there, split in magazines, because you couldn’t carry them out for twenty pages in a month or something. LEE: Oh, no, no. Never. Never. We could carry them out for 5,000 pages a month. The only reason was just time. The ones that were in their own ten-page strip, we just didn’t have time. Whatever artist was drawing them was either too slow or had too many other things to do. And this was a thing that we tried to explain in our letters pages and Bullpen pages from time to time—many readers would say, “Why don’t you give Iron Man his own book? We love him!” Or, “Why don’t you give Captain America his own book,” or the Hulk, or blah. Or, “You’ll take a character that we don’t even like as much and give him his own book, and the Hulk is still in only ten pages.” Well, the reason we gave another character his own book might have been because we had the artist for that character, who had the time to do it, and the writer who had the time to write it, but the artist who was doing the Hulk, for one reason or another, didn’t have
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the time to do a twenty-pager, and so forth. Our biggest problem is time. We do not have enough writers. We very rarely have enough artists around here. And we’re always working against the clock, and that’s—all of our characters, I think, now are going to have books of their own. Dr. Strange will, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. will, Iron Man, Sub-Mariner, Captain America, and the Hulk. And that doesn’t leave anybody sort of stranded as part of a book, I’m happy to say. We’d like to give—many readers have said, “Why don’t you give the Inhumans a book of their own?” Well, I know as I sit here, it would be one of our best-selling books, but I don’t have anybody to do it. I would like Jack Kirby to do it. He doesn’t have time, because he’s busy full-time with his three books now, so until the right artist comes along, we can’t do it. And, as soon as we get the artist, and soon as I get somebody—I hope myself—who has time to write it, then will have an Inhumans book. INT #1: Do you find you have a large turnover in staff? Like, I’ve seen some artists come from different magazines, and then you don’t see them after a couple months or so. LEE: Two reasons. Sometimes they quit. Sometimes they just didn’t work out and we’re forced to let them go. Luckily, we haven’t had too many who quit. We’ve only lost, I think, two artists who I was sorry to lose because they quit. One was Steve Ditko, and one was Wally Wood. Most of the others, while they were good men, or women, as the case may be, they just didn’t draw in the style that we were looking for, and we were forced to let them go. Actually, we live from emergency to emergency, and crisis to crisis. As I say, we never have enough writers, and very often don’t have enough artists, and the men work so close to the deadline date. For example, Jack Kirby, if he were to be ill one day, we might
miss a book, because he does three books, and he just has enough time to do those three books in a month. Now, sometimes an artist wants to take a vacation, or he has to attend his son’s graduation, or something comes up. Lo and behold, we have to get another artist to do that strip. Sometimes one artist is ill for a while, someone else has to pitch in. Now, it’s like falling dominos. As soon as something happens to one artist, we have to take another fellow, who’s also busy, and give him that strip to fill in on. Then we have to take somebody else to do the strip that the second busy fellow had to do, and so forth. Consequently, it is very difficult to keep one artist with one book. We’re always shuffling, and it isn’t always because we’re dissatisfied with the work an artist is doing. Very often, we’re tremendously satisfied with what an artist is doing, but we still have to take them off a particular book, because another book is more of an emergency, and it’s easier to get somebody else to do the book this fellow is doing, you see. So, very often, when you see us shuffling artists or writers around, it isn’t always that we were unhappy with the way the strip was going, but there might be any number of reasons why this was done, and it’s usually because of an emergency that came up, and this happens every day. The same goes for the writing, I might add, that between Roy, and Gary [Friedrich], and myself, we’re very hard-pressed to write all the stories, and we’re always trying to get new writers. INT #1: How many of them do you write? LEE: Well, right now I’m writing less than I ever have. I’m writing The Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Thor, Daredevil, the Captain America book… [laughs] and Millie the Model. And that’s about it. INT #1: How does that seem to fit in, with the Millie the Model? LEE: Oh, we’ve had Millie for five million years, and we haven’t got the heart to drop it, and just lately—I hadn’t written it for, oh, so many years, but just a couple months ago I figured, maybe if we tried to make it a humor book, sort of like Archie, really a little bit lively and funny, it might start selling well. So we changed it around a little. It just came out two or three months ago, the new style Millie, and I’ll be darned if it isn’t selling as well as our super-heroes now, out of left field. So I’m kind of excited about that, because it’s the type of book I can turn out in one-fifth the time that a regular super-hero book takes. But, actually, Millie is like a standing gag around here. Nobody really knows why we’re keeping it. Except, if it sells well now, as seems it will, then we have a valid reason for keeping it. INT #1: Do you have any estimates on how many women or girls read your magazines? LEE: I would say we have quite a few female readers, because we get quite a few letters from females, but, of course, the majority of the mail is from boys, men. INT #1: What age group do you think Marvel Comics mostly appeals to. Is it aimed toward any particular age group?
Mad About Millie Stan Goldberg gives a “new look” to Millie the Model ( #165, Dec. 1968), in keeping with the times. We all think of Marvel Comics being about superheroes, but this series lasted till 1973. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
LEE: Yeah, it’s aimed toward me. This whole thing started with me saying I want to do the kind of stories that I would enjoy if I read comics. And, as far as whom we appeal to now, I have a feeling that we’re very fortunate. We have many, many readers, six years old, five years old, just learning to read, who seem to love our books,
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because we can tell from the fan mail we receive, a lot of it written on crayon, almost illegible.
The Fantastic Four and Spider-Man, but also I know that, starting last year, there were some other films that weren’t quite the quality of these, but they were Iron Man, and the Hulk, and Captain America, and Thor. How did they come about? Did you have any really control of them?
INT #1: That may still be the college student.
LEE: No, unfortunately, we have almost no control. We assign or sell the rights, and, financially, it’s pretty good for the company, I guess. You asked how I feel? I feel terrible about them. I feel embarrassed they’re not—they’re good for what they are. I mean, Spider-Man and The Fantastic Four on the ABC Network now I think are as good as any children’s show, maybe better than most. But the older reader who hears about them and then tunes in expecting to see something with the same type of feeling and appeal as our magazines is inevitably disappointed to learn that they’re just for kids. The network compels the studio who does this show, the studios, to use the most elementary language. The plotting that we use is almost all watered down and cut down so it’s just a one-level plot, the hero fights the villain, and that’s all. And it’s a shame. I don’t think it’s doing our image any good as far as Marvel being for the older reader, but, at the same time, it may be doing us some good just in the sense that it’s making us a little better known throughout the country. So I don’t know whether it’s really on the plus or minus side, having it. But certainly we’re not proud of the stories or the way they’re done. We would do them differently if we were producing them.
LEE: Well, you may be right. Incidentally, I meant written “with” crayon. But I would imagine, and I hate to say this, I would imagine that the younger reader, from 13 years and younger, is still in the majority of our readership. However, we have an unbelievable amount of college students and people beyond college adults, and certainly a fantastic amount of older high school students who read our books, which we can also tell by the fan mail we get. I mention the fan mail because we’ve never really taken the time or trouble to take a real survey, which we neither have the time to do, nor probably the finances. And fan mail, to me, is the most important thing of all. I have a little folder right here. Every few hours, my secretary, Fabulous Flo, brings me in this mail as it comes in, and I’m probably the only fellow idiotic enough, in a job like mine, to read all of it. And we try to answer as much as we can, and I feel this gives us a tremendous edge. By reading what the readers like and what they don’t like, why, you’d have to be a simpleton not to be a reasonably good editor. All you have to do is—I don’t have to be a genius to put a lot of copy on a cover and then get a thousand letters saying, “We don’t like all that copy on the cover, get rid of those word balloons.” Ergo, a few months later, I take off the word balloons, and everybody says, “That Lee knows what he’s doing.” And I just read it in the mail. INT #1: From what my younger brother and his friends tell me, they miss half of the intricacies of what’s going on. LEE: I’m sure they do. As a matter of fact, I might just add, as far as understanding, I don’t understand most of this stuff myself. [chuckles] We seem to have found that the very younger reader enjoys the action, the exciting drawings, and the exciting concept of the story, and if he misses many of the details, or many of the philosophical sidelights, it’s no great loss. He’s still enjoying it more than possibly he would enjoy a book published by another company where even the basics, even the action and the artwork, aren’t as good. So we feel the thing to do, as I say, you shoot for a reader who might be a fellow like me, fellows like you. We’re not going to lose the young ones. They’ll still be understanding more and getting more out of our books than they will out of others. Maybe they’ll be learning more, and learning faster. Certainly, the older ones, we feel, appreciate what we’re giving them. So I haven’t any reason to think we’ve been wrong, yet. INT #1: I was wondering how you feel about the television series that are now being shown? The ones I’m referring to are
INT #1: I just noticed most of them [reuse] the old plots. They are right from the old magazines. LEE: Well, it’s easier for them to do that. They’re trying to get as close as they can within the boundaries of what they’re allowed to do, but you can tell by the sponsors they are supposed to appeal to six-year-old kids. So how mature can the stories be? INT #1: What inspired Not Brand Echh? LEE: [laughs] I think I was sitting around one day and I said, “Gee whiz, it looks like the competition is always ribbing us. Why don’t we show them the way to really rib characters?” And it was just done as an in-joke, and the darned thing caught on. It’s one of our top-selling books now. As a matter of fact, we used to argue about the book here. I guess I was the only one who thought it would do anything. Everybody else thought I was absolutely crazy, and I sort of twisted everyone’s arm into putting the book out, and now I think we’ve got a little bit of a winner on our hands. INT #1: At one time you had Thor, Hulk, and Iron Man in [The Avengers]. Did it get too crowded in the panels? LEE: No, the problem was, it’s this darned realism hang-up that we have.
Echh Marks The Spot! Instead of actually going after DC, Marvel mostly parodied its own characters. But Stan forgets—it was Roy Thomas and Gary Friedrich who gave him both name and idea for the Brand Echh mag. Here’s Not Brand Echh #10 (Oct. 1968). [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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Other companies can get away with this, but we have difficulty. For example, you can take Superman and have him in his own book, and he can be in other stories in other books, and one story will take place on the planet Krypton, and one will take place on Earth, and nobody seems to care. With us, if we have Thor appearing in The Avengers, having a fight in New York City, in a book that comes on sale in February, and in the month of February, in his own book, Thor, which goes on sale in February, if he happens to be up in Asgard having an adventure, we’ll get a million letters from readers saying, “Now, how can this be? There he is fighting in New York, and how can he be fighting in Asgard at the same time?” And we realized that the readers seem to think of these characters as really existing in the here and now, and if we have them in two different places at the same time, this is hurting the image of reality, and that’s the reason that we find it very difficult to have a character co-existing in two places, or in two books, at once. And that was the reason we took Thor, Iron Man, and the Hulk out of The Avengers, because—the book would have sold magnificently with them. I mean, they were strong characters and the readers loved them. But it was too difficult for us to justify why they’re doing one thing in their own book, and one thing in another book. INT #1: My favorite mag is The X-Men. What about additions to The X-Men? LEE: I think we’d like to. It just gets a little cumbersome. It’s a little difficult to write and draw a story when there are too many characters. We may eliminate a few and add some new ones. Again—now, let’s see, who’s writing it? I think Gary is writing that now. I try to give the writer free rein. Whatever writer does a book, whatever he wants to do, as long as it’s within the scope of our general policy—so I’m not trying to be evasive, but I’m really not too familiar with what the future plans are on any of the books that I don’t write. I learn about them about the same time you fellows do. INT #1: I read a lot of them. In fact, I read all of the Western magazines. Do you find that they go over as big as the super-heroes? LEE: Oh, no, there isn’t as big a market. In fact, we’ve just eliminated two of them. We’re only left, now, with the Rawhide Kid. And it’s a shame, because I think, if we had the time, and we don’t, if we had the time to devote to the Westerns, I think we could
make them almost as popular as the super-hero books. I think if we plotted them the same way, and gave them the same characterization and dialogue and so forth, but there are just so many hours in a day, and we’ve let the Westerns just sort of drift. Now, Larry Lieber, who does the Rawhide Kid, I think does a pretty good job and puts a lot into it, and that’s selling about the best, but there just doesn’t seem to be the market for a Western. INT #1: You had the Ghost Rider, and he’s gone now. LEE: That was a mystery to me, because we got the greatest mail on that book. Everybody seemed to love it, and yet the sales figures came in bad. And we got a lot of mail from kids saying they couldn’t find it, that, “We want to read it, and we can’t find it anywhere.” So I suspect one reason that didn’t do well was it may have just been distributed badly, which is always another problem that we face. But, no, we had to drop that, also. INT #1: How did the No-Prize come about? LEE: Oh, just the way everything does. I thought it might be kind of funny. You know what it is? I feel that you can treat your audience in two ways. Either they are customers who are making you rich, or they’re people that you’re talking to when you tell a story, and you sort of think of them as friends. Now, I don’t want to sound corny, but I sort of think of our readers as friends. I feel I know them, and I feel they like us, and goodness knows we like them because they like us. And I don’t like to do anything to disturb or to disappoint a reader. Now, I’ve always felt, with contests, that, oh, sure, there’s a winner, or there’s ten winners, or there might be a hundred winners. But what about the thousands of losers who are disappointed? And people were always asking us to have contests for this, that, and the other, and I couldn’t see any way to do it without feeling there’ll be a lot more disappointed people than other kinds. So it occurred to me, why not—I felt that our readers had a sense of humor anyway, and I felt, “Why not do it so that nobody can lose?” Now, the only way nobody can lose is not to give a prize. Let everybody be a winner. Well, you don’t just say, I’m going to give you a “not prize,” I’ll give you a “no-prize.” And it caught on. I think it’s one of the best little things we’ve come up with. In fact, we now have envelopes that say “No-Prize” on them, and we occasionally mail them to people. And they’re empty. You know, you open it up, “Congratulations, your No-Prize isn’t enclosed.” It’s kind of cute. ANNOUNCER: You’ve been listening to a special program presenting Stan Lee, editor of the Marvel Comics Group, the man behind the current popularity explosion of comicbooks on the college campuses of America. We would like to express our deep thanks to Stan Lee and the Marvel Comics Group for presenting this program for production and presentation on WRSU.
The Envelope, Please! Were you a lucky non-recipient of this iconic Marvel treasure? [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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Fawcett Collectors Remember Stan The Man
STAN THE MAN
Fawcett Collectors Remember Marvel’s Smilin’ Leader Edited by P.C. Hamerlinck
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P.C. Hamerlinck
discovered Stan Lee’s work when I began reading super-hero comics in 1973 at the age of 11. I was absorbing his often-profound “Soapbox” installments (where it became clear that Stan was just as much a hero as The Mighty Thor or The Invincible Iron Man) before stumbling across Lee and company classics within the pages of indispensable reprint titles for us newcomers like Marvel Tales, Marvel’s Greatest Comics, Marvel Double Feature, and Marvel Triple Action. In addition, my parents—knowing that I had a soft spot for Captain Marvel and, under their assumption that the Big Red Cheese Cap and Marvel Comics were all one and the same—purchased for me in 1975 at B. Dalton Bookseller Son of Origins of Marvel Comics. Out of the book’s grand re-presentation of those seminal stories, I found myself the most captivated by Stan and Gene Colan’s “Brother, Take My Hand.” In his illuminating essay for this Vietnam War-era Daredevil tale, Stan wrote: “It touches on man’s inhumanity to man, one of the biggest problems which faces us today. I admit it… I was trying to really say something in this story, and to say it softly.” He sure did.
P.C. Hamerlinck found the gateway to Marvel’s past through reprint titles like Marvel Double Feature #8 (Feb. 1975); art by Jack Kirby & Frank Giacoia. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Later on, Mom and Dad Hamerlinck gifted me with some of the Marvel Pocket Books—paperbacks of vintage, full-color excitement starring Spider-Man, Dr. Strange, and the Hulk in their earliest stages, courtesy of Lee, Ditko, Kirby, and the Bullpen. I really believed at the time that it legitimized my taste in literature simply when these works finally became accessible at our local shopping mall bookstore. C.C. Beck, in a 1979 letter to me, spoke highly of Stan. The two of them had hit it off at a Miami comic convention in April that same year. Beck credited Stan for “putting some humor back in comics”… but Captain Marvel’s co-creator couldn’t grasp the rationality behind Stan’s “Marvel Method” of putting comicbook stories together.
C.C. Beck The artistic co-creator of the original “Captain Marvel” (on right) and Stan Lee (co-creator of another “Captain Marvel” in 1967), in spite of their dueling Captain Marvels, manage to enjoy each other’s company at the Miami Con in April 1979.
Fast-forward to adulthood: I had seen Stan several times over the years on convention panels discussing his many achievements. My nearest interaction with him was nine years ago when I was writing an article for Michael Eury’s Back Issue magazine about a 1975 record album tie-in oddity called Spider-Man: Rock Reflections of a Superhero [see p. 102]—where Stan had recorded stage-setting narratives in between the record’s musical tracks. Through Roy, I asked Stan about the project, but he couldn’t remember a thing about it. But I remember putting that LP on the turntable back in ’75… and I can still hear Stan’s voice through the speakers joyfully hamming it up for young listeners (and fans) like me.
FCA [Fawcett Collectors Of America]
Jim Engel Stan Lee made the Marvel Comics of the ’60s the most exciting thing of my youth. He created THE CLUB. He made me feel like an insider in a most incredible universe of characters—and their creators. Stan, more than anyone WAS Marvel. Even IF all Stan ever did was dialogue and editorial content (and nobody disputes THAT), that was half the appeal of Marvel (at least for ME). Even if you believe he had nothing to do with the stories/plots (and I don’t believe that), he gave Marvel’s characters their voices and their personalities. I never read ANY Kirby-only book after the 1960s Marvel years that held anything LIKE the appeal of his work with Stan. Kirby ALONE at Marvel in the ’60s, dialoguing his own stuff, would NEVER have grabbed me the way the same work with the Stan dialogue, titles, and editorial persona did. Ditko alone wouldn’t have, either. Or anyone ELSE in the “Bullpen.” Without that Stan Lee “polish,” “veneer,” “personality”—whatever you want to call it—I truly do not believe there’d have been a “Marvel Age of Comics” and the huge industry-wide super-hero boost that resulted from it. His contribution cannot be overestimated.
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comicbooks were quite literally “seducing the innocent.” In 1948/49, Lee wrote a series of editorials that were published in all of Timely’s titles that defended his life’s work against Wertham-esque critics who saw comicbooks as causing juvenile delinquency. It is important to note that this was a fight that Lee was bound Brian Cronin. to lose, as Timely-rebranded-as-Atlas Comics eventually co-founded the Comics Magazine Association of America (CMAA) and helped create the self-policing and restrictive Comics Code Authority in 1954 to prevent the government from policing the comicbook industry. Lee knew that his was not a necessarily popular viewpoint and yet he still fought for it. His most powerful response to Wertham occurred in “The Raving Maniac,” in the final issue of Suspense (#29, 1953), with art by Joe Maneely, as Lee wrote himself into the story as the head of a comicbook company who is dealing with the titular maniac, who wants to bring the editor’s comicbook company down. Lee, as the editor, argues against censorship and defends comicbooks as harmless escapist fiction that gives their readers comfort in the increasingly dangerous real world,
Jim Engel with Stan Lee in 1994. You can see some of his art on p. 168.
Brian Cronin When people think of Stan Lee taking an idealistic stand, they typically have in mind one of his late-1960s “Stan’s Soapbox” columns that would run every month in Marvel Comics, starting with the introduction of the company-wide “Bullpen Bulletins” beginning in 1967. Those columns, especially the ones where Lee decried the evils of bigotry, are powerful reading today and likely had an even greater impact when they were first published. However, it is worth noting that, by 1968, Lee was writing from a position of strength. Marvel Comics was riding not only high in sales, but also in cultural relevance. Despite being in his mid-40s, Lee was suddenly an icon among college students and he knew it. Therefore, while I admire Lee’s views from that period, I am even more impressed by Lee’s actions during the late 1940s/early 1950s as he became one of the most vocal critics in the comicbook industry against the attacks on comicbooks by concerned parents who were turning against comics based on the writings of Fredric Wertham and people of his ilk who were convinced that
A Marvel Maniac—1950s Style! Brian Cronin was impressed with Stan Lee’s defense of comicbooks in “The Raving Maniac” from Suspense #29 (1953); art by Joe Maneely. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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Fawcett Collectors Remember Stan The Man
especially the ever-present threat of nuclear annihilation. At the time, Atlas Comics was best known as a company that copied the trends started by other companies. Lee once noted that the company’s output was “usually based on how the competition was doing. When we found that EC’s horror books were doing well, for instance, we published a lot of horror books.” Here, though, Lee stood on his own, in a losing fight for the sake of an ideal. It was one of the most heroic actions that I could think of during Lee’s long career in comics.
Ron Frantz About twenty-five years ago, when the late Dr. Jerry Bails was still publishing paper editions of his Who’s Who of American Comic Books, he asked me to fill out a questionnaire listing all my writing and publishing credits for inclusion in the latest edition. Not that I have ever considered myself as any kind of a public figure worthy of such recognition. This included his request for some personal background information, such as who my major influences had been. It took only a bare minimum of thought for me to realize that my greatest influence had been none other than Stan “The Man” Lee. For me, this adulation began in 1963 at the age of nine when I first started reading dozens of super-hero stories written or edited by Stan Lee for Marvel Comics. I think Stan would probably have been flattered to know that many of the characters he co-created with Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko became heroes and role models for a multitude of children. I just happened to be one of them. Two decades later, while I was publishing my ACE Comics line and attending various conventions and trade shows around the country, I always hoped that I might meet Stan Lee in person. Sadly, I never did. Somehow, as things worked out, we were never at the same place at the same time. Had I been so fortunate as to meet Stan, I would have been proud to shake his hand. I only wish that I could have told him how his comics had brought a little joy and happiness to my often miserable childhood. His comicbook stories provided me with the inspiration to explore new interests, far beyond the scope of anything ever published in a comicbook. More than almost anyone else, Stan set me on a path of learning and avocation that has lasted my entire life. For this, I can say at this much belated date: “Thank you, Mr. Lee, from the bottom of my heart. I will Ron Frantz forever be in your as drawn by longtime comics pro Pete Morisi. debt.” [© Estate of Pete Morisi.]
Shaun Clancy and The Man in Seattle, Washington… November 24, 1991.
Shaun Clancy Stan Lee was the first comicbook professional I ever met. I had decided to attend my first-ever comicbook convention in Seattle on November 24th, 1991. It featured Stan as guest of honor. I brought my copy of How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way with a few comics to have signed and stood in a line of about 20 people. Directly in front of me was a lone kid of about eight holding one item. When it came time for him to get his item signed, I saw the real Stan Lee I admired. The kid asked Stan to sign a baseball card. Stan tried to explain nicely that he had nothing to do with that item, but once he saw the kid’s pained expression, Stan signed it anyways. That kid probably has the only sports card signed by Stan. When my turn came, he signed my items and, after a brief chat, realizing this was my first comicbook show, he demanded I get my photo taken with him, which I did. A few years later I mailed the photo to Stan and received it back signed by him. We later shared many e-mail exchanges over the years. Stan, I am so glad for the chance to have known you. You are the symbol of inspiration for successful people to never give up on their dreams.
Bill Black It was a day that changed my life. Way back in 1957, Atlas Comics (Marvel) imploded and lost distribution here in Central Florida. In 1962 I moved to North Florida to attend FSU and was alone fending for myself for the first time. After settling in, I headed for a shopping center to find comics. I hit pay dirt, a comiclovers dream come true! Here was an array of super-characters I had never seen before. The Mighty Thor! The Astonishing Ant-Man! The Incredible Hulk! The frosting on the cake was FANTASTIC FOUR (#9) that had two old favorites on the cover… SUB-MARINER and THE HUMAN TORCH! Atlas was alive, and to my astonishment every book was drawn by my favorite artist, Jack Kirby! Reading these books, I discovered that I was no longer alone.
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favorite artist, and the fastest artist who ever worked for me. I loved the guy!” I’ll always remember that Stan Lee took the time to talk to me, someone he didn’t know at all, about an artist who had worked for him many years before. Stan shared something else with me I had not thought about. He said, “If Joe had lived, he probably would have drawn the first issue of The Fantastic Four, or even The Amazing Spider-Man, and history as we now know it might have changed dramatically.” I suspect he was right.
Bill Black in 1963—the year after he had discovered Thor, Ant-Man, the Hulk, and the Fantastic Four. (Right:) Bill Black will never forget his brand new wife reading his entire stack of Fantastic Four comicbooks in 1968, beginning with issue #9. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
All were written by Stan Lee and his characters were different. Sure, they were incredible, but they (as well as the villains) all had personal problems that made them so relatable to the reader. The FF had been evicted! That would happen to me in years to come! It was obvious that Stan was writing to an older audience… the college crowd… to me. I had found new friends… Richards, Pym, Banner… and they would stay with me, lending support, throughout my years at Florida State. Jumping ahead to June 1968, and, freshly married, I knew it was vital that my young bride understand my love of comics. I asked her to read my entire stack of Fantastic Four from that first No. 9 to the present. She graciously did and nervously I awaited the results… acceptance or rejection. It took a while… but when she finished the current issue she looked up and asked, “Where’s the next one?” How’s that for a testimonial for what Stan Lee created in the 1960s?... “Where’s the next one?” Rebekah’s understanding and support for the driving creative force within me led to a lifetime career in comics and now, more than 50 years later, we are still going strong. STAN LEE! EXCELSIOR!
Roger Hill In 1987 I started doing research on one of my favorite artists, Joe Maneely, who tragically died in 1958. I had already located and called Maneely’s mother, who still lived in Philadelphia; a very sweet lady with whom I corresponded for a while and who always referred to her son as “Joey.” I followed up with Stan Lee by calling his office in Los Angeles. His Roger Hill. secretary told me he was very busy, but when she told him I was calling about Joe Maneely, he picked up right away and exclaimed, “He was my
Bud Plant I have no doubt that I owe my career in comics retailing to Stan. It was those amazing Marvel comics, which I discovered at the beginning of 1964, that turned me from an occasional comics fan into a passionate collector. I combed three different newsstands watching for new releases. I subscribed to many of the titles. I began haunting used bookstores Bud Plant. and riding my bike to the giant San Jose Flea Market every weekend, looking for back issues. This led directly to meeting other collectors with the same passion and discovering fandom, and The Rocket’s Blast, and back-issue dealers like Buddy Saunders. My buddies and I opened comicbook stores beginning in 1968, when I was in high school and too young to drive. But within a year we were driving to comic-cons—first in Houston, then Oklahoma City, then New York in 1970. We published fanzines, and many of us became life-long friends that I still am close to more than 50 years later. If it wasn’t for those amazing stories in The Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, The Avengers, The X-Men, The Mighty Thor, Tales of Suspense, and Tales to Astonish, I hesitate to think what I’d be doing today. 50+ years later, I still love Stan’s work, from those screwy Atlas monster and sci-fi stories to so many fondly remembered issues of those hallowed titles that I read and read again through the ’60s and early ’70s. Stan, thank you with all sincerity, for how much you brought to the world of comics and to all of us readers. The closest parallel might be Harvey Kurtzman’s Mad, and how he influenced a generation of fans and creators, including R. Crumb. For kids my age—eleven or twelve when I fell in love with Marvel—Stan and the Gang became a world of our own, where we shared in adventures and knew all the players. We even had the Merry Marvel Marching Society, got our names printed in the comics, and perhaps even a letter every so often. Comics became my career, from collector to dealer, to distributor and publisher. I owe it to the talent at Marvel, and Stan was the central spark in that whirlwind of talent that pulled it all together. The magic they gave us, for just twelve cents an issue!
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Mark Voger
Mark Voger His first exposure to the world of Marvel Comics and Stan Lee was Amazing Spider-Man #42 (Nov. 1966); art by John Romita. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Joe Musich Somewhere between 1956 and 1961—between when I was 10 and 13—I started to “collect” comicbooks. Didn’t everybody? There are three comics-related influential points in my life: Captain Marvel teaching me to read at almost 4 years of age … eventually discovering that there was a entire world of comics before I existed, particularly with the Superman Annual #3 in the summer of ’61 … and Fantastic Four #1 later that same year. Thanks to Stan Lee’s eloquence in “speaking to me” through his sidebars and carnival promotion in the books, along with Mr. Kirby’s out-of-bounds art, I became a full-blown, no-room-in-the-house hoarder. Stan’s inculcation still survives in my very soul. I never met “The Man” or churned in a line for a signature. Did I need to do either? It might’ve been a story to tell. But the myth-maker still survives in this 13-year-old boy’s heart. And isn’t that what’s important? Thanks, Stan!
Joe Musich. In 1961, Fantastic Four #1 became one of the top comics-related influential points in Alter Ego reader Joe Musich’s life. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Stan was the Man. More than any other writer or editor, he made you feel like part of a community. I’ll never forget reading my first Marvel story. It was The Amazing Spider-Man #42 (1966). I was 8. I didn’t understand why, in the opening splash, people were yelling “Stop, thief!” at Spider-Man, who appeared to be absconding with a bag of money. (Actually, it was a bomb.) Weaned on DC Comics, my thought was, “Why do they think the hero is a villain?” Welcome to the Marvel Universe! This issue also had the first appearance of Mary Jane Watson, in gorgeous art by “Jazzy” John Romita. The sad part of Stan’s legacy is the acrimony between himself and some artists, chiefly Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, and Wally Wood. The happy, glorious part is what these gifted men achieved together. To this day, those 1960s Marvel books have no equal. They are entertainment for the ages. Thank you, Smiley.
Will Murray Over the decades, Stan Lee was very generous to me when I interviewed him or needed an e-mail question answered quickly. I loved his writing as a kid. I consider him to be a seminal influence on my own writing. Without taking anything away from his artistic collaborators, with whom he shaped and molded some of the greatest characters of the last sixty years, I think one of Stan’s most important and unsung traits was that he never gave up on a character.
Will Murray. He’s a longtime comics historian, who’s contributed regularly to Alter Ego and many other comics history publications.
We live in a century in which the Marvel Universe is the dominant milieu of global popular culture. Yet most of these million-dollar properties nearly failed after launch. The Incredible Hulk was canceled. Lee kept him alive as a guest-star. Publisher Martin Goodman killed “Spider-Man” after only one appearance. Lee knew in his gut he could be a hit. When Goodman wanted to revive the Golden Age Daredevil, Lee correctly reinvented the character. Daredevil, Ant-Man, and even The Avengers had to be revamped to keep them going. To his eternal credit, he never gave up on a Marvel hero. Even with a capricious publisher who wielded a very sharp axe, Stan did everything possible to keep his characters going. This vision dates back to the late 1940s, when he reinvented Sub-Mariner, Captain America, and others in order to keep them relevant. Even when Lee was forced to give up on properties like The X-Men and others, the value of those properties was redeemed in subsequent years. Most comics publishers simply killed a disappointing title and never looked back. Stan was forever striving to improve his. He once told me he was never satisfied with Iron Man’s armor, and so over the years, he instructed his artists to improve and update it. Now look where we are. One of the reasons I know I’m dwelling in the future is that two successful Ant-Man movies exist. “Ant-Man” was a flop. He is a flop no longer. This was unimaginable in the 20th century. Thank you, Stan Lee, for believing in your co-creations. History has vindicated your faith in the Marvel Universe.
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Jay Wilson Stanley Martin Leiber. Stan Lee. A name known worldwide today, a fact that would have floored my young mind when I first determined who this man was in the credits of an issue of Fantastic Four. During the ’60s and early ’70s, Lee formed Marvel Comics plot lines from his illuminated and reactionary mind, bringing the voice of the times into his stories. Jay Willson. He also had an uncanny ability to write editorials that made readers feel as though they were reading comics written by one of their best friends. In what may have been his greatest accomplishment, however, Lee funneled all Marvel storylines to Marvel writers through his supervision, creating a world of synchronized comicbook heroes that all co-existed within New York City. This was a fantastic accomplishment and unparalleled in the history of comicbooks. It also proved to be too much for one person over time, which led to the Marvel line of comics expanding and the gradual reduction of Stan’s involvement with that cohesive world of characters. Comics companies have attempted to world build for
Will Meugniot Over the years, I knew Stan Lee in many capacities. First as a reader and a fan, then as an artist working with him on the ’80s Marvel cartoons, a few years later as the supervising producer director of X-Men: The Animated Series, and finally as the creative director of the ill-fated Stan Lee Media. We shared a good many adventures, all of which I am certain had greater meaning to me than to the guy who was my childhood idol. But it’s my very first meeting of Stan in person that feels like the story to share. That cosmic (for me) moment transpired at the 1976 San Diego Comic-Con. I’d penciled my first pro work for Marvel, two issues of Tigra’s solo strip, and my future with the company was dim, still undetermined. Being painfully shy, I didn’t know what to say to the Marvel guys I ran into at the con and kept my head low for fear of a negative engagement with them. My wife Jo, still a few years away from becoming a pro colorist, and I stepped into a
Will & Jo Meugniot in the fall of 1991, shortly before the start of production on X-Men: The Animated Series. Also seen is his “Tigra the Were-Woman” in Marvel Chillers #3 (Feb. 1976), as inked by Frank Chiaramonte & Sam Grainger and scripted by Tony Isabella. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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their characters in the same universal manner since that time, but only Lee truly succeeded. By the same token, the attention that Stan received for these wonderful comics also moved him more into the role of company mouthpiece—a role that he was suited for externally, but poorly chosen for internally. As Stan moved more into the limelight as the voice of Marvel Comics, he knew less and less about what the company was actually publishing. I can still remember asking him a question about the alcoholism of Tony Stark (Iron Man) at a convention in 1979, only to have him look at me like I was crazy. He had no knowledge that such a change had occurred, making it obvious that he was no longer a part of the daily comics development at Marvel. Following those amazing days of formulating Marvel Comics into one of the two comics powerhouses in the industry, Stan moved on to Hollywood and focused most of his efforts there. His skills as an editor rallying creative staff uniformly was not as effective in Hollywood, and years of awkward business deals followed. He even left Marvel Comics at one point. Nonetheless, Marvel was smart enough to settle old debts and to return Stan to his hallowed role of figurehead of Marvel Comics, introducing a whole new audience to his unifying personality through Marvel film appearances. Godspeed and Excelsior, Stan. You will be remembered. near-empty elevator, and lo and behold, our fellow traveler was none other than Stan Lee, whose eyes had fallen on Jo in her very ’70s halter top. Well, we had his attention, so I scrounged up my courage and blurted out, “Hello, Mr. Lee! I’m Will Meugniot and I just started penciling ‘Tigra’ for Marvel!” Stan shifted his gaze to me: “Tigra? Is that one of ours?” The elevator stopped and he exited before my answer. About 15 years later, we were having creative issues on X-Men: The Animated Series, so Stan and I were in a private meeting, having a hard time sorting our problems out. During a break, I told him the story of our first meeting, and we had a good laugh. We knew then that, when we were done with the hard and sometimes hurtful decisions we were making that day, there would be a time when we laughed about them as well. And from that point we were smiling again, even when we butted heads.
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Joe Piscopo This artist’s tribute to Stan Lee is his illustration of The Destroyer—one of Stan’s earliest creations, who first appeared in Mystic Comics #6 in 1941, co-created with artist Jack Binder. [The Destroyer TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Walt Grogan I first met Stan Lee at the Chicago Comic-Con, way back in 1977, at the Pick Congress Hotel in Chicago. One of the things I remember so vividly is how accessible he was, along with DC publisher Jenette Kahn. I still have the program book that he autographed for me, right next to a wonderful caricature of him by the talented Jim Engel. I couldn’t believe that I was meeting the Walt Grogan co-creator of Spider-Man, The Fantastic Four, The Hulk, and other Marvel heroes. When Walt met Stan in Those were the heady days of comicbook person for the first time at the 1977 Chicago Comic-Con, conventions, prior to the Internet, where The Man autographed the all the pros just walked around and you caricature below, drawn by could talk to them… and they would talk then fan-artist Jim Engel (see to you! Stan was a pioneer in that arena… p. 163) for the con’s program building a persona for himself and Marvel book. [Art © Jim Engel.] that changed the face of comics and made you feel part of an exclusive club. Stan turned comics into something they had rarely been… an art form to aspire to and not be ashamed of. It took a long time for the rest of the world to catch up and, for that, I’ll be forever grateful to “The Man”!
Mark Lewis As a kid, I was definitely much more of a “DC Kid” than a “Marvel Kid.” And I didn’t get Stan’s tongue-in-cheek jibes at “Brand Echh,” a.k.a. “The Distinguished Competition.” It put me off because, “Hey, I like some of those comics!” But by the time I entered high school, I started getting attracted to more of the Mark Lewis. Marvel material. More so that, in recent years, one friend was actually surprised to hear I was a DC kid when I was young. Here’s the thing: I have the utmost respect for Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko. Without them, and their creative contributions lighting the way, you don’t have a Marvel Comics. But there is no getting around the fact that, without Stan, you also don’t have a Marvel Comics! Stan had a gift for dialogue, a tone that hadn’t been seen before on a comicbook page. We’ve seen people parody it in the years since, but it can’t be forgotten how revolutionary it was for readers at the time. Kirby and Ditko would put their best into their part of the job, and Stan would rise to the occasion. Stan also had this instinctual way of promoting Marvel that made the company just seem tremendously fun and down-toearth—like it was some kind of clubhouse that you wanted to be part of. Stan, thanks for your part in shaping and co-creating so many wonderful characters and stories that have stayed with us, and will stay with us for years to come! Few people can claim such a legacy.
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that book, and to Stan himself, I find myself writing this brief tribute, a small thank-you to one of the writers and editors who got me interested in that “world of make-believe” and in all of the arcane, footnoted mysteries that it contains.
John Pierce
Brian Cremins In his tribute piece to Stan Lee, Brian notes the impact that 1975’s Son of Origins of Marvel Comics had on him—so what the hell, we’re showing you its Romta cover again! [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Brian Cremins Across from Hamilton Park, not far from the corner of East Main Street and Meriden Road, Jim’s Comic Book Shop once stood a few miles from the site of the Eastern Color Printing Plant in Waterbury, Connecticut. At Jim’s, where my father and I made regular stops in the early 1980s, I discovered Matt Wagner’s Mage, Don Simpson’s Megaton Man, Terrance Dicks’ Doctor Who novels, and names like Trina Robbins, cat yronwode, Hugo Pratt, and Reggie Byers. I also came across a creased and yellowed copy of Stan Lee’s Son of Origins of Marvel Comics. Although I recognized his name from the splash pages of my favorites Marvel titles, I was a little startled to see it on the cover of a book. A long one, too— almost 250 pages filled with the debut stories of characters like The X-Men, Daredevil, Iron Man, and The Silver Surfer. What also distinguished this book from the others in my collection was that Stan had included an introduction to each one of these adventures, a short essay in which he revealed how he’d gone about crafting these stories with artists like Jack Kirby and John Buscema. I found myself as fascinated by these essays as I was with these classic super-hero stories. My love of historical footnotes and digressions has its source, I think, not only in Peter Haining’s The Art of Mystery & Detective Stories or David A. Kyle’s A Pictorial History of Science Fiction, but also in Roy Thomas’ All-Star Squadron and in Stan’s other books for Simon & Schuster. Not long after reading Son of Origins, I was studying carefully the pages of Don and Maggie Thompson’s Comics Buyer’s Guide, especially issues featuring Will Murray’s articles on pulp heroes like The Shadow. Thanks to Stan, I enjoyed myself as I wrote book reports for my middle school teachers. I already loved reading, but he’d introduced me to something else—a love of research. In the exuberant prose of his essays, I sensed a calling: I wanted to know how these pieces of fiction worked, who’d created them, and why. Stan made this process of discovery seem just as exciting and as colorful as the comics themselves. In the book’s Epilogue, there is also a note of optimism. Stan encouraged his readers to forget about nostalgia; there are other stories yet to be told. Published in 1975, Son of Origins, less than a decade old when I first read it, closed with a hopeful view of the future: “Our world is the world of make-believe—and so long as men can think,” Stan wrote, “so long as men can extrapolate, so long as men can fantasize, the rich and rewarding lode of Marvel legends will never die.” Thanks to Jim’s Comic Book Shop, to
I have to admit that I’ve never been one of Stan Lee’s legion of admirers. To me, his stories mainly seemed to be loosely-plotted soap operas interrupted by long fights (or maybe it was the other way around). My own preference was for the tighter plotting and less melodramatic tales of DC. Another problem for me was that Marvel’s heroes usually won by outmuscling or outlasting their foes, whereas DC characters won by outthinking theirs—and again I preferred the DC style. However, there were some areas in which Stan shone brightly. One was his sparkling and somewhat more realistic dialogue, as contrasted to the often stilted speech of DC and other extant writers. Heroes (especially Spider-Man) and villains often engaged in witty banter while fighting. So, if the fights were often too long, and the winner determined mainly by stamina and muscle power, at least there was some entertainment value in the word balloons! Stan was quite skilled in capturing the zeitgeist of the eras in which he wrote, and yet without ever pandering or condescending. Contrast that with attempts of DC editors and writers when they tried to get in touch with the teen and college markets. In different ways, John Pierce. both the “Teen Titans” stories, with their embarrassing “hip” dialogue, as well as the later “relevant” tales of “Green Lantern/ Green Arrow” with their pedantry and preachiness, demonstrated that Stan knew what he was doing, while others did not. Finally, I don’t want to overlook the fact that Stan created a whole host of inventive new characters as well as brought a few classic heroes (most notably Sub-Mariner and Captain America) back from the Golden Age. Most of those characters live on, not only in the printed page, but also on the big screen, the latter in particular adding to the lustre of Lee!
Mike Tiefenbacher Back in 1980, I was editing one of fandom’s oldest fanzines, The Comic Reader, for publisher Jerry Sinkovec, and giving over several pages each month to comic strips done by my friends Chuck Fiala and Jim Engel. One of Jim’s strips was a photo-comic called Fandom
Fawcett Collectors Remember Stan The Man
Less than a week later, we received Stan’s reaction: Now you’ve gone and done it! Now I’ve gotta sue—for millions! Not ’cause I’m offended. Not ’cause I didn’t like it. No—because I just got fired! Marvel said they’ll be damned if they’ll hire a cadaver as publisher! One way you can save yourself the lawsuit—got a job for me?
Mike Tiefenbacher recounts in his essay what Stan Lee’s reaction was to the April Fool’s Day cover of The Comic Reader #179 in 1980. [Heroes TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Since it sounded just like one of his Bullpen Bulletins, I had no doubt of its authenticity. We ran it in the next issue. My momentary misgivings regarding the wisdom of running the cover vanished with the arrival of his short note. It cleared me of, anticipating the worst, instigating an actual heart attack and death (which turned out to be, amazingly and happily, nearly forty years premature). It was my only personal interaction with the man I’d admired since the summer of 1964 when I bought my first Marvel comic. So thank you, Jim Engel—and thank you, Stan, for having the sense of humor I hoped you’d have.
Paul Power
Confidential, a flat-out hilarious fumetti comic strip which poked fun at virtually every aspect of the comics industry and its fans. I expected some blowback from his blunt sense of humor from professionals, but the usual reaction was the opposite (well, almost; Bill Gaines didn’t like the Graham Ingels episode). It seems like everyone was a Jim fan. So when Jim submitted a cover idea which, as he put it, was born of him wanting “to prank fandom through something shocking,” I didn’t object (because it was funny), and I didn’t turn it down; but in mid-March I was looking at the cover in paste-up while Jerry was doing the color seps from Jim’s color guide. (See above for what the finished version looked like.) Jim tells me that he got Stan’s picture from an issue of FOOM. Uncertain of his own ability to do the Marvel hero vignettes justice on each side of the cover, Jim enlisted the aid of his friend (and future Marvel inking workhorse) Hilary Barta (who himself questioned his ability at the time of handling super-heroes). It was one of our best covers, but looking at it nearly finished, my imagination was working overtime. I was having second thoughts. Even though it was meant as an April Fool’s joke, it wouldn’t be so obvious to everyone. In fact, until I dug out the issue, thanks to my geriatric memory, I’d completely forgotten it was the April issue! All I remembered was thinking how risky using the cover would be. Someone who just glimpsed it on the comic shop’s newsstand might not figure it out—and in fact, that’s exactly what happened! Jim tells me, “When I walked into Frank Kraft’s Clark Street store [in Chicago] the afternoon of the day he got the issue in, he yelled at me: “ENGEL!!! You #%!?*!!—do you know how many times today I’ve had to explain to someone it was a JOKE?!?” That was probably going on all across the country, and with our voluminous freebee list of professionals, it might have even affected Stan himself. I thought that perhaps it might behoove me to give him advance warning of our intentions—both because it was kind of important for us not to endanger our connection to one of two of the major companies who were providing us advance news of their coming releases, and because it was the right thing to do.
I was lucky to have worked with Stan Lee on one piece of production art for Marvel Animation at their Sherman Oaks studio back in 1982. I interviewed with Stan and Jerry Eisenberg, a cartoonist whose dad (Harvey Eisenberg) used to draw Ruff’n’ Reddy comics for Dell. Jerry drew like his dad. Stan Lee could not have been a nicer person. A real gentleman. I inked and colored a nice-looking “Captain America” pencil job by Rick Hoberg. I enjoyed the job, and I recall Rick telling me that he liked my inking of his work. I was offered more work by Stan Lee but got very sick and had to refuse. Every time I would meet Stan Lee, he was always enthused about life and Marvel. I noticed Stan at Jack Kirby’s funeral. You could see the sadness on his face. I recall Roz Kirby telling me how nice it was for Stan to come and pay his respects to her “Jackie.” Stan was the engine that drove Marvel to success. He sparked Jack Kirby’s imagination and was smart enough to not get in the way of Kirby’s original ideas and storylines but to add more fun to the many four-color adventures. He made us fans feel like we were a part of the International Merry Marvel Marching Society! See this page for a photo of actor/director Michael Town, Stan “The MAN!” Lee, and myself at a CAPS banquet some 10 years ago. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the ones who sparked my desire
Paul Power at right, with Stan Lee and Michael Town.
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to become a working artist, and that adventure continues. Thank you, Stan and Jack. You will not be soon forgotten.
Michael Uslan I knew the name and signature “Stan Lee” before I ever knew the name “Marvel.” Growing up in the 1950s, so many stories in so many comicbooks I read, even those I picked up in flea markets going back decades, had that name scrolled somewhere in the opening panels or splash pages. I came to know that I would like any comicbook story by Stan Lee, even when I naively thought these comicbooks were published by a company called “MC,” which was stamped in a little rectangular box on each cover, or by a company called Magazine Management, a name I spied at the bottom of each inside cover or first page. It wasn’t until the publication of Marvel Tales Annual #1 that I actually saw your picture and finally had the following answer to my long-burning question, “Yes, Virginia, there is a Stan Lee!” A casual reader of the Marvel monster, Western, war, spy, and humor comics of the 1950s and early ’60s, I became a Marvelite with Fantastic Four and Hulk #1s. By the themes you incorporated in your super-hero works, I grew up confident not only that good ultimately triumphs over evil, that teamwork leads to success, that gumption sees us through hard times, that belief in myself will be the path to achieve my goals, that brains can always defeat brawn, but also (and most importantly), that if I lived by the ethics and morals modeled for me by your super-heroes, I could be as good and upright a person as Spider-Man or Thor or the others. For that, Stan, and speaking for entire generations of readers, I owe you a big thanks in a way that nearly matches my thanks to my parents, teachers, and religious leaders who tried to convey the same precepts to me, only they could never do so in the entertaining and effective way you were able to do through the magic of your comicbook stories. You didn’t desert me when I grew older and went to high school and on to college. In the tumultuous ’60s and ’70s, my philosopher king was not Plato or Aristotle, but The Silver Surfer. Through your pen, his observations and clarity as he reflected on man and life on Earth influenced my own thinking and personal philosophy. They increased my sensitivity toward the planet and the people on it. The only other philosophic look at life and human behavior that impacted, influenced, and inspired me to this degree was “Stan’s Soapbox.” Through that medium, you did far more than plug the next Marvel comicbook. You very often made me think, and in the process made me feel like you were talking to me personally on those pages. Everyone I know who was a Marvel reader in that era feels the same way to this very day. What about what you did for me personally in life? I was 7 years old when I read my first Marvel/Atlas comicbook and saw that “Stan Lee” signature scrawled sidewards in a panel on the first page. That was the moment you became my idol. I was 13 when I read in a fanzine that if a fan mailed you a stamped, self-addressed envelope along with a typed interview with space for you to answer after each question, you would
Michael Uslan and Stan Lee—juxtaposed with Jerry Ordway’s cover for Just Imagine… Stan Lee with Jerry Ordway Creating JLA, showing Smiley’s versions of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, and The Flash. Kind of ironic that Stan ended up writing such a comic—since it was the Justice League of America that indirectly led Stan Lee to co-create Marvel Comics! Thanks to the Grand Comics Database for the scan. [TM & © DC Comics.]
respond. I still have that interview with all your handwritten answers. That was the moment you became my mentor, introducing me to the history of Marvel and the comicbook industry. I was 16 when I met you for the first time after hearing your talk at Phil Seuling’s Comic Art Convention in New York City. That was the moment you became my inspiration. I was 20 when you called me at Indiana University to congratulate me for teaching the world’s first college-accredited course on comicbooks, offering to help me in any way. That was the moment you became my friend. I was 36 when you and Margaret Loesch signed me to create the fourth segment of the syndicated animated Marvel Universe TV series, Commander Video. That was the moment you became my creative boss. I was 49 when I approached you to join me at DC Comics to create your Just Imagine comicbook series. That was the moment you became my creative partner. You have always remained my idol, mentor, inspiration, friend, and role model. You have changed the world, entertained so many generations, impacted the American and world cultures, and inspired legions of youth while positively influencing their own forming moral and ethical codes. You have elevated the American comicbook and all graphic storytelling from its years of denigration to a respected art form that has taken its rightful place in the world’s great art museums, galleries, and universities. You have created a new, modern-day mythology that will live on in the traditions of Homer, Aesop, Grimm, and Walt Disney. And you have accomplished all this with integrity, honor, and humanity toward your fans. I cannot begin to imagine what this world would have been like without the magic of Stan Lee. [Courtesy of Smithsonianmag.com; reprinted by permission of the author.]
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A
Alter Ego #170 writer/editorial
A Jack For All Seasons
s I say in my article that begins on p. 225, I’ve been a fan of Jack Kirby’s art and concepts since at least 1947, when I was six or seven years old. Back then, of course, his byline was always shared with his partner, Joe Simon, so few people knew just who did what in that talented twosome… nor did we worry much about it.
Kirby’s work and influence have been a part of this magazine at least since founder Jerry G. Bails’ third spirit-duplicator issue of the then-hyphenated Alter-Ego [Vol. 1] (Fall 1961), wherein he adapted a “Simon + Kirby 1941” figure to illustrate an essay on the 1944 Captain America movie serial. In addition, Jack became the first pro artist ever to send Jerry a drawing for inclusion in the fanzine:
The first photo-offset issue, #4 (Fall 1962), printed a wonderful pencil illo of the Thing (inked by Jerry), holding up a sign that plugged A/E. (See p. 185.) A few years ago, TwoMorrows publisher John Morrow asked me a question that took me aback: “If TwoMorrows didn’t have The Jack Kirby Collector, do you think you’d be featuring Jack more in Alter Ego?” My answer was a resounding yes; the only reason there haven’t already been several issues devoted to the work of the guy Stan Lee dubbed “The King” is that TwoMorrows’ flagship title is totally built around Kirby, and I didn’t figure there was much left for A/E to say about a man celebrated thus far in 80 editions of a mag named for him! Still, I figured that sometime, someway, there should be an Alter Ego that was centered around Jack. But I dillied and I dallied for years, since so many other pros and concepts vied for attention. The notion of a Kirby issue of A/E was consigned to the back burner of my over-stretched mind. And then my manager and friend John Cimino sent me a scan of a Kirby drawing that was being auctioned off, and which had been brought to his attention by Heritage Auctions co-chairman Mark Halperin. It depicted both Jack and his (to me) greatest Marvel Comics creation, the Thing, sharing a laugh as Dr. Doom and The Red Skull attempted to sabotage them. It was even inked by Joe Sinnott, the ultimate FF embellisher. When I learned that illustration had never been printed, I told John Morrow that I’d like to make that art the cover of an entire Kirby issue. John immediately gave his blessing, and I set about to line up material that didn’t simply duplicate what had already appeared in TJKC. Thanks to the efforts of Will Murray, Barry Pearl, Nick Caputo, Aaron Caplan, John Cimino, Robert Menzies, Michael T. Gilbert, Peter Normanton, Mark Lewis, P.C. Hamerlinck, and a host of generous scan-senders, this became a wall-to-wall Kirby issue. Even more so than #169, this is a one-subject issue—and the subject is the greatest super-hero/action artist in the history of comicbooks. Yes, we’re sorry to lose, for the second issue in a row, both the letters section and John Broome’s memoirs—but it had to be done. For Jack was an artist for all eras, and it was high time we made certain that everybody knew that we knew it, too!
Bestest,
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THE SECRET KIRBY ORIGIN OF IRON MAN JACK KIRBY, DON HECK, Ol’ Shellhead, & Marvel Comics
by Will Murray
Heavy Metal— Early Editions
N
ow an essential Marvel Universe super-hero, in the beginning Iron Man straggled in late, struggling to find his rightful place in the Marvel Universe, ultimately becoming one of the few spinoffs of Marvel’s fantasy titles whose own comicbook title has run uninterrupted to this day.
The Usual Suspects The Jack Kirby-penciled, Don Heck-inked cover of Tales of Suspense #39 (March 1963), flanked by the four men credited with bringing the future “Golden Avenger” to life, as pictured in the 1964 Marvel Tales Annual. Will Murray says that Heck claimed to have done a bit of redesigning of the armor, with editor Lee’s tacit permission, when he inked Kirby’s pencils. Thanks to the Grand Comics Database. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
The origins of the character are complicated, and many behind-the-scenes details have either never been fully reported or are in dispute. According to Mark Evanier (friend and early-1970s assistant to Jack Kirby), who got the story from the artist himself, Kirby created the character design for Iron Man and brought it to Stan Lee sometime prior to the creation of Thor, Spider-Man, and Ant-Man. If verified, this` may date from the period during which he brought in the original version of Spider-Man. Little if any thought was given to who the man inside Iron Man’s bulky armor would be. Kirby’s concept sketch ultimately became the cover to Tales of Suspense #39 (March 1963).
Mark Evanier in a photo from his informative website www.newsfromme.com. Since the 1970s, Mark has had an enviable career in first comics, then TV.
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The premise was a recycling of a 1961 one-shot Tales of Suspense #16 (April 1961) character, Metallo, who was also dubbed “the Hulk.” That two-part tale was drawn by Kirby from a script (probably) by Stan’s brother Larry Lieber, off (probably) a Lee plot. In the story, a convict agrees to test a giant lead-lined, radiation-proof suit of armor and becomes a destructive, cobalt-colored monster. This story is itself a variant retelling of a Don Heck-drawn tale with an identical premise: “I Made the Hulk Live,” from Strange Tales #75 (June 1960). Lieber quite likely scripted that story from a Lee plot as well, suggesting that the concept of a man in a suit of modern, mechanized armor might well have originated at Timely with plotter Stan Lee. The idea pre-dates Lee, of course. Writer Norvell W. Page had pitted the pulp-magazine hero The Spider against similarly armored criminals in the 1939 Spider pulp-magazine novel titled
“A Giant Lead Hulk” “The Thing Called Metallo!” was the 13-page lead feature in Tales of Suspense #16 (April 1961). At story’s end, the criminal within the power-bestowing armor faces a dilemma: he can only go on living if he doffs the armor and receives radiation treatments… but if he does remove it, he’ll be sent back to prison. In some ways, this foreshadowed the future plight of Tony Stark as Iron Man. Art by Jack Kirby & Dick Ayers; plot & script uncredited in comic, but probably respectively by Stan Lee & Larry Lieber. Thanks to GCD & Barry Pearl, respectively. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Satan’s Murder Machines. Stan was a faithful reader of The Spider from its first rough-edged issue. The villain in Page’s story styled himself… the Iron Man. Back to Metallo: The reason he was called both “Metallo” and “Hulk,” I suspect, is that the skyscraper-sized alien monster known as “the Hulk,” pure and simple, had returned in the previous month’s Journey into Mystery (#66, March 1961), after having been introduced four issues earlier. There were a lot of Hulks running around at Timely in those days! Indeed, at the conclusion of his origin story, Iron Man was referred to as “that metallic hulk who once was Anthony Stark….” At this point in the development of the nascent “Iron Man” feature, some context is necessary. Remember that, when the
“I Made The Hulk Live!” In Strange Tales #75 (June 1960), the above statement could’ve been made either by probable plotter Stan Lee, probable scripter Larry Lieber, or positive artist Don Heck. It was an even earlier antecedent of both Iron Man and the ever-incredible Hulk. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
The Secret Kirby History Of Iron Man
Marvel Universe was first forming, The Incredible Hulk was introduced into the lineup while Fantastic Four was still a bi-monthly title. The latter status would quickly change during the momentous year of 1962. The Hulk’s magazine floundered in its first year. According to Kirby, publisher Martin Goodman nearly canceled the title with issue #3. As a precaution, Goodman ordered Along Came The Spider… Lee to abandon Rafael M. DeSoto’s painted cover for the Dec. 1939 full-length stories issue of The Spider pulp magazine, which featured in favor of two an armored villain called… the Iron Man! Thanks to David Saunders. [TM & © the respective trademark & shorter “Hulk” copyright holders.] tales in every issue. That way, if The Incredible Hulk folded, the inventory could be used up in one of the fantasy titles. But those anthology titles were fast filling up with new superstars. Spider-Man took the top spot in the retitled Amazing Fantasy. However, that magazine was then abruptly and prematurely canceled, orphaning the unpublished inventory, which included at least one “Spider-Man” story. Thor and Ant-Man took over Journey into Mystery and Tales to Astonish, respectively. The Human Torch spun off from Fantastic Four into his own feature in Strange Tales, probably because the latter comic was the top seller of the surviving fantasy quartet.
Putting Some Iron In The Diet Somewhere during this period, Jack Kirby allegedly offered Stan Lee the new character idea eventually known as Iron Man. Although the Metallo and Heck/Hulk stories had already appeared by then, Kirby may have been inspired in part by Goodman’s learning about the sales success of a new DC series phenomenon, “Metal Men,” which reportedly outsold company star Superman during its Showcase tryouts early in 1962. Goodman may have asked Stan Lee to come up with an original robotic super-hero. According to Kirby, it was common practice in those days for him to bring in concept designs for Lee and Goodman to evaluate. “I came in with presentations,” Kirby once claimed. “I said, ‘This is what you have to do.’ I came in with Spider-Man, the Hulk, and the Fantastic Four.” (It must be stated up front that this version of their working relationship was never confirmed by either Goodman or Lee; and Lee, at least once, positively denied it.) “My understanding is that Iron Man was conceived, and there was a sketch of Iron Man sitting on the shelf, before
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there was any thought that the fantasy books would have heroes,” reports Mark Evanier. “Jack’s recollection was that it was going to be a stand-alone book.” Kirby believed that the new character was strong enough to carry his own title. But, given the restrictions that Independent Distribution had then placed on the number of titles Goodman could publish every month, something would have to be canceled to make room for any new title. So the empty shell that was the prototypical Iron Man languished for a time, the personality within the bulky armor as yet uncreated. “Jack’s version of it was that they had talks about doing Iron Man, but the book did not go forward because Goodman wasn’t ready for it,” explains Evanier. “So they put it on the shelf for some indeterminate period. Then the decision was made to add the characters to the anthology titles. At some point, Jack came in and Stan said, ‘We’re doing ‘Iron Man’ in Tales of Suspense with Don Heck.’” It’s entirely possible that, given the timing, “Iron Man” was under consideration to replace the Hulk magazine. Fan David Seigel remembers Kirby once remarking that he preferred the original Iron Man armor to any later iteration because the earlier version was like a “mechanized Hulk.” Meanwhile, The Incredible Hulk lumbered on, while Fantastic Four shifted to monthly frequency. And Goodman, for reasons known only to himself but perhaps motivated by the launch of DC’s “The Atom” in his own title after a very successful Showcase run, began talking about giving Ant-Man his own book. When the Hulk’s solo book was finally canceled around the turn of 1963, Lee assigned Steve Ditko to draw the final issue, telling him that he didn’t want to “waste” Kirby on a canceled magazine. Kirby went on to originate Sgt. Fury and His Howling Commandos instead. In the interim, sales figures had come in on Amazing Fantasy #15 from the summer of ’62, and Goodman realized that the unlikely Spider-Man was a hit, one deserving of his own title. If Iron Man had had a shot at his own title at that stage, the surprise success of Spider-Man killed that possibility. But the company’s new line of super-heroes were all selling, so Goodman green-lit “Iron Man”—as a half-a-book lead feature in one of the anthologies. Over Kirby’s objections, Don Heck was assigned to draw the first “Iron Man” story for Tales of Suspense from a Larry
Man—Or Monster? The Jack Kirby cover of The Incredible Hulk #1 (May 1962). Inks attributed to George Roussos. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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Lieber script based on a Stan Lee plot. Given the origin’s Vietnam background, Heck was an appropriate choice, if only because he had drawn a number of Atlas war stories set in the Korean War. Conflicts in Asia were familiar territory for him. In subsequent interviews over the years, Lee would often cite Heck as the strip’s co-creator, neglecting to mention Kirby’s formative contribution.
It was up to the artist to visualize what Stark looked like. “I would be thinking along the lines of some character I liked,” Heck said, “which would be the same kind of character [Alex] Toth liked, an Errol Flynn type. The features I’m thinking of here––a handsome good-looking guy who was rich.” Jack Kirby used to call Tony Stark “the handsomest man in comics.” We don’t know if Kirby suggested any ideas for who Iron Man would be in his other identity, but Heck recalled that Kirby contributed “some ideas” beyond the prototype design. Mark Evanier notes, “Jack was at that point very interested in Howard Hughes. Hughes was one of the celebrities that Jack was always fascinated with. He used to talk about Howard Hughes a lot. I think that Jack at some point saw Iron Man as Howard Hughes, and that was probably what prompted Heck to draw Errol Flynn.” Heck had received a Photostat of the already-designed Tales of Suspense cover, but didn’t like what he saw. Iron Man was a human tank with a neckless cannon-shell helmet and a metallic apron. With Lee’s tacit permission, he inked the cover, redesigning the armor in part.
As Lee once put it, “So, DC editor Robert Kanigher conceived and wrote working with “The Metal Men”—which many fans at the time my old friend, saw as an early response by that company to the artist Don Heck, overnight success of proto-Marvel’s Fantastic I modeled Iron Four—to debut in Showcase #37 (March-April 1962), Man after Howard with art by Ross Andru & Mike Esposito. The DC Hughes, who had series is said to have “outsold Superman” during designed, built, its several-issue Showcase run, although surely that and flown his own would’ve been merely in terms of percentages, not total number of copies, since the Man of Steel’s main plane and had title would’ve had a far larger print run. Will Murray been a billionaire theorizes that such success might’ve led publisher industrialist Martin Goodman to admonish Stan Lee to introduce inventor. Don was a metallic/robotic hero. Thanks to the Grand Comics my first choice to Database. [TM & © DC Comics.] draw Iron Man. I knew that his combination of realistic storytelling and sophistication was just what a strip about a handsome playboy/adventurer needed.”
Testing Their Metal
The Heck Factor Don Heck told me what happened next: “Stan called me up and told me that we were going to have this character, and the character’s name was Iron Man,” he said. “That his name was Tony Stark and the way he was wounded in Vietnam. It was just a synopsis over the phone. We didn’t actually sit down and work out the character and the rest. I knew what the costume looked like because I got the cover in the mail.” Larry Lieber’s contributions may or may not have been limited to inventing the name “Anthony Stark” and scripting from Lee’s plot. “The idea of Iron Man wasn’t mine,” Lieber averred. “I added, but I didn’t make it up. It was just getting a synopsis, and maybe [Stan] told me what he looked like or something. But I didn’t even have to know what he looked like––a guy in an iron suit––and then I would just write the story.” In any event, Lieber almost certainly wrote a full script, from which Heck drew the origin story.
“Iron Man Is Born!” Don Heck’s splash page for the first “Iron Man” story, in Tales of Suspense #39 (March 1963). Plot by Stan Lee and script by Larry Lieber—but reportedly Jack Kirby played a major, officially unheralded part in Ol’ Shellhead’s creation… including designing the hero’s armor, although Heck made subtle changes to it when drawing the actual story. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
The Secret Kirby History Of Iron Man
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According to Mark Ellis, who later worked with Heck at Millennium Comics, “Don told me that when he was given the first ‘Iron Man’ story to pencil and ink, as well as Jack Kirby’s original design of the armor, he had problems with the helmet and the ‘metal mini-skirt.’ His words. So, he made some slight alterations in both, making Iron Man’s helmet less like a gun-turret and changing the skirt into something closer to trunks. He said he did this mainly to make it easier for him to draw, but he also felt it streamlined Jack’s original armor design, which nevertheless continued to be featured on the covers of Tales of Suspense.” Among Heck’s modifications was replacing the bullet-shaped helmet with an oval one that had a neck, jutting jaw, and skull-like look, complete with a sinister grilled grin. He also dropped the sheet-metal kilt and simplified other elements. While these changes helped, they did not eradicate the difficulties in animating the cumbersome character for his origin story. Heck had such difficulty drawing Iron Man’s rigid armor that he petitioned Lee to let him further modify it for the second story. “Don said he suggested to Stan a more astronaut/space-suit kind of thing... much more streamlined that didn’t have as much look of weight to it,” Mark Ellis recalled to me. A concept sketch was reportedly produced, but Lee rejected it, preferring to stay with the Kirby-as-modified-by-Heck design. Unfortunately, that origin story misfired. Goodman didn’t care for it, especially the scene in which the powerful Iron Man is temporarily knocked down by having a steel filing cabinet thrown at him. Lee or Lieber covered for that misfire by indicating that the cabinet had been weighted down with rocks. Ironically, Goodman reportedly wondered why Lee hadn’t assigned Kirby to the kickoff story. “The first story was not well liked in the office,” Mark Evanier told me. Not surprising, coming as it did from a publisher who once complained that he never made any money off the three Rs of science-fiction: “rockets, robots, and rayguns.” This, and the lack of Kirby dynamics, apparently caused “Iron Man Is Born!” to be delayed at least a month. According to its job number, X-51, the first “Iron Man” story was drawn at the
Skirting The Issue This eighth page from the “Iron Man” intro in Tales of Suspense #39 is the first to feature several panels of the brand new armored hero, sporting the Heck-designed metal “trunks” in place of the “metal mini-skirt” Kirby had given the character. Artist Heck also gave the helmet a more oval shape, with several other changes in what passed for its “face.” Story by Lee & Lieber. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
same time Jack Kirby was doing Incredible Hulk #5, and between FF #10 and #11, which makes it contemporary with January or February 1963 cover dates. By that reckoning, the origin should have debuted in Tales of Suspense #38, last surviving fantasy title without a hero strip. Instead, it appears to have been held up at least one month, and finally appeared in issue #39, dated March 1963 and going on sale the same December day as Amazing Spider-Man #1.
Kirby Redux
Errol Flynn
Howard Hughes
Anthony Stark
Handsome and super-popular film star Errol Flynn and the dashing inventor/aviator/ magnate Howard Hughes were both men after whom Anthony Stark might have been modeled, moustache and all; it’s not impossible that each influenced the look of the man inside Iron Man’s armor. The panel from Tales of Suspense #39, provided by Barry Pearl, is the work of writers Lee & Lieber and artist Heck. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
So disappointed was editorial with the “Iron Man” origin story that Larry Lieber was taken off all the super-hero strips and Jack Kirby was tasked to continue the feature, despite his busy schedule, in hopes of salvaging it. Heck recalled Lee breaking the news to him this way: “You did a great job, Don. Kirby’s doing the book from now on.” (Of course, Kirby was only going to pencil the series, not script it. More about that in a moment.)
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member of the Metal Men, Lead. Colorist Stan Goldberg commented, “The color of iron is gray. But we changed it to yellow because it looked better. Now he doesn’t look like a robot and wasn’t as scary-looking.” Veteran writer Robert Bernstein was brought in to replace Lieber as “R. Berns,” but Heck was retained to ink Kirby on the second published “Iron Man” story. Apparently unaware that Heck had partly redesigned the armored suit, Kirby drew his original design, which Heck largely followed—though occasionally he slipped up, giving Iron Man an incongruous chin. On the third story, Dick Ayers was brought in as inker. Here, we see the unmodified original Jack Kirby Iron Man armor design. It’s denoted by many extra joints in the fingers and open mouth slot, in contrast to Heck’s more sophisticated grilled-grin design.
Follow The Bouncing (Iron) Ball Talk About A Whacky Filing System! It doesn’t make any sense, of course, that Wong-Chu would have “weighted each drawer of this cabinet with rocks”—but, at some point, original writer Larry Lieber or editor Stan Lee added the final word balloon on p. 12 of the origin story, when publisher Goodman objected to the company’s newest hero being bowled over by a mere filing cabinet. Art by Don Heck. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Uncertainty over the strip’s sales potential led to some confusion over which “Iron Man” story was prepared next. Lee and Goodman sometimes built up inventory before releasing the first adventure of a new character. For example, the first “Human Torch” story in Strange Tales (#101, Oct. 1962) was apparently not the first one drawn. That seems to have been “Prisoners of the Fifth Dimension,” which sports an earlier job number on its splash page. Why that story was delayed while another was prepared in its place is unclear, but it explains why there were two different retellings of the Fantastic Four’s origin in the early days of the “Human Torch” strip. In any event, the first order of business was to brighten up Iron Man‘s Hulk-gray armor. With his second appearance, “Iron Man versus Gargantus!,” Stark coats the old armor a heroic gold because the public recoils in fear from his forbidding gray. I suspect that this second appearance was not actually the one drawn second. That was probably the “Stronghold of Doctor Strange!” story in Tales of Suspense #41 (May ’63), which devoted several of its early pages to establishing Tony Stark and his dual identity. I’ve often wondered why Iron Man was originally colored the same dull gray as the Incredible Hulk. After all, in the first issue of the latter, Lee had quickly learned that gray was not a good hue for a protagonist, and had had the Hulk recolored green without explanation in issue #2. So why did Lee make that same mistake just a few months later? And why was Iron Man gray in the first place? A cool cobalt blue would have been more appropriate. This had been the color of the robotic Hulks that had preceded Iron Man, such as Metallo. In the color language of comics, iron is usually rendered as a dark or cobalt blue. The reason may go to the commercial motivation for the creation of Iron Man. One of the members of DC’s Metal Men was a robotic strongman called Iron, who is colored dark blue. Had Goodman released a metallic blue Iron Man, a lawsuit might have been deemed likely. Gray may have been the only metallic color available—even though that was the hue that DC used on another
With the fourth published story, “Trapped by the Red Barbarian,” Don Heck returns to pencil and ink, and so does Iron Man’s ominous death’s-head helmet. Heck retains the metallic apron in an anti-Russian tale that goes back to Iron Man’s Cold War origins. Over the course of the strip’s first year, Kirby and Heck fought a low-level version of “armor wars” over how the Golden Avenger should be depicted. I doubt that Kirby noticed, but no doubt Heck fretted every time he had to reconcile Kirby’s pencils with his own inks! Nowhere is this disconnect more in evidence than in issue #43 (July ’63), wherein Iron Man battles Kala, Queen of the Netherworld. In several scenes, Iron Man is depicted putting on a bullet-shaped helmet which appears to be made of flexible metal and is obviously devoid of a chin. Heck inked those panels faithfully, but when Iron Man dons that same helmet, suddenly the Golden Avenger sports a Don Heck chin! The metallic kilt comes and goes until Heck surrendered, retaining it as a permanent feature. Iron Man’s shoulder antenna comes and goes at random. Belt elements kept changing. So it went all through 1963. The armor design switched back-and-forth. It was rarely consistent. The closeness of the job numbers indicate that Lee was stockpiling inventory at a faster clip than usual, probably to keep Heck busy. Forgotten in the rush was the villainous Doctor Strange, who had been set up as a recurring foe in the third strip. He would not be seen again for the rest of the Silver Age, a collateral victim of the success of Steve Ditko’s new “Doctor Strange” feature over in Strange Tales. With Tales of Suspense #45 (Sept. ’63), the lagging feature expands to 18 pages when Pepper Potts and Happy Hogan are introduced. The figure of Iron Man on Heck’s cover is replaced with a pastedown of Kirby’s Iron Man figure from the “Kala” splash page, a move made less obvious by the Heck inking of both. Stan Lee takes over the scripting chores in an effort to give the strip a fresh new direction. Two issues later, Heck is replaced by Steve Ditko, who introduces The Melter. In one of the strangest artistic mismatches of that era, Ditko is inked by… Don Heck! Kirby’s cover shows the familiar bullet-headed Iron Man, but inside strides a version of the Don Heck armor. According to the newszine The Comic Reader, this issue was supposed to introduce a modified version of Iron Man’s armor. Here’s the squib:
The Secret Kirby History Of Iron Man
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Jack Is Back! (Above left:) When Kirby took over the penciling of “Iron Man” with Tales of Suspense #40 (April 1963), he restored the “metal mini-skirt” and other aspects of his original concept drawing—whether the latter had been the art used as the cover of TOS #39 or a wholly different illustration. Heck, in inking, didn’t alter Jack’s drawings overmuch; but the hero’s armor was suddenly colored “golden” (i.e., yellow). Plot by Stan Lee; script by Robert Bernstein (as “R. Berns”). (Above right:) Will Murray posits that “The Stronghold of Doctor Strange!” in TOS #41 (May ’63) was actually prepared before “Iron Man vs. Gargantus!” Same credits as previous, except the inking was by Dick Ayers. He hewed to Kirby’s pencils more closely than Heck had. Thanks to Barry Pearl for both scans. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Not By The Steel Of My Chinny-Chin-Chin! Robert Bernstein (a.k.a. “R. Berns”) with his wife Beverly and daughter Alison. Courtesy of Julia Brown-Bernstein, with special thanks to Art Lortie.
Dick Ayers from Marvel Tales Annual #1, 1964.
(Above:) In the top two panels in this sequence from TOS #43 (July ’63), Heck faithfully inks Kirby’s pencils depicting a bullet-shaped Iron Man helmet. But, in the next two, any reader who’s paying attention can spot that the armored hero’s headgear has grown a bit of a chin. Apparently Dashin’ Donnie just couldn’t help himself! Plot by Lee, script by “R. Berns.” Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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Jack Kirby, Don Heck, Ol’ Shellhead, & Marvel Comics
Seeing Red—While Wearing Yellow Don Heck returned as full artist, complete with his own version of the Kirbydesigned armor, in Tales of Suspense #42 (June ’63). Plot by Lee, script by “R. Berns.” Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
impervious to his melting ray. Made from extruded aluminum, this new armor was otherwise indistinguishable from what had gone before. It could have been that this issue was intended to showcase a new version of the Golden Avenger. I interviewed Don Heck, who recalled this story as having been lightly penciled, suggesting that Ditko expected to ink it himself. In any case, when Heck took a brush to it, he may simply have not noticed or ignored any new Ditko flourishes. “I was shocked when I saw what he sent me, the pencils when I was inking them,” Heck remembered. “I couldn’t believe it. It was stick figures…. I had to draw over most of it.” For his part, Ditko was not happy with Heck’s inks and mentioned to me his displeasure with one panel where the battling antagonists were rendered in silhouette form. He also said that a lot of his details were lost in the inking, which probably included any armor modifications.
Avengers Assembled But there may have been a more compelling reason for the failure to launch a new Iron Man armor in that issue. The Avengers had been launched as a new title, with Iron Man as a prominent member. In the sequence of Marvel’s publishing schedule, there appears to have been a problem coordinating the introduction of the new Iron Man in the two concurrent titles. Tales of Suspense stars Steve Ditko at the drawing board of Ironman [sic]. He changes Ironman’s costume a bit. This should make some fans I know very happy. Indeed, the storyline seems intended to set up an improved suit of armor. When The Melter proves he can melt Iron Man’s armor with impunity, Tony Stark forges a new suit that’s
A Double Dose Of Iron (Man) The cover of TOS #45 (Sept. ’63), at near right, is mostly by Don Heck—but the Iron Man figure is the Kirbypenciled, Heck-inked one at far right, seen two months earlier on the splash page of #43! Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
The Secret Kirby History Of Iron Man
Evidence for this can be found in The Comic Reader once again. Here is a news item from the August 6, 1963 issue: The second issue of The Avengers (which is a bimonthly despite the misprint in the indicia strip) will have this new group battling the Sub-Mariner and the Hulk. (No comment.) The story sees the Ant-Man in his new role as Giant Man [sic], and Iron Man in a new costume. Personally, I liked both characters the way they were. Regarding Iron Man’s costume, it looked just as I thought it should, although it was a little too compressible to suit me. Evidently, fan-bigwig Jerry Bails got an early peek at the new design, courtesy of Stan Lee, with whom he had been exchanging letters for a couple of years. But—which design? Was there a Ditko sketch of the modified version that was intended for the Melter story? Of course, events didn’t unfold as TCR had reported they would. Avengers #2 did not feature the Sub-Mariner. Instead, the villain was The Space Phantom. The new Giant-Man did make his first Avengers appearance there, but Kirby drew the familiar Iron Man armor of his own creation. Judging by the job numbers, Kirby started drawing Avengers #2 before Ditko commenced penciling the Melter story.
had to produce an effective portrayal of them working together–– closely. Of course, they’d argue. They might even come close to killing each other, but the idea worked and we managed to make a convincing story out of a very improbable situation.” Lee and Kirby realized that changes were in order. There seems to have been a coordinated plan to beef up the Avengers lineup between issues #1 and #2. Ditko’s Melter story and the debut of Giant-Man appeared a week apart during that interim. Had the first Ditko armor modification survived into print, it would have been reflected in the Space Phantom story. Instead, a completely redesigned red-and-gold Iron Man armor was first seen in Tales of Suspense #48 (December ’63). In another bizarre artistic mismatch, Dick Ayers inked Ditko’s “The Mysterious Mr. Doll,” wherein Iron Man’s new flexible suit is introduced. Once again, the Lee-Ditko storyline was designed to force Iron Man to create a new suit of armor in order to defeat a new and otherwise-unbeatable foe. Even there, the design would not remain consistent over
The Space Phantom story is odd in that Henry Pym shows up early on as Ant-Man, riding a pair of ants, takes one of his new size-changing pill and pops up to human size. He wears Giant-Man’s costume, but I would not be surprised to learn he had originally been penciled as Ant-Man. Several pages later, the character is re-introduced, but this time as GiantMan, and his new origin is footnoted as if he had not been seen previously in that issue. How to explain this? It’s difficult to do so. But Kirby sometimes drew partial stories and page sequences out of order as a means of managing plot pacing. He might have submitted the beginning of the Space Phantom story prior to the Giant-Man transformation, leading to some necessary revisions. Lee and Kirby seem to have swiftly realized that the makeshift Avengers, as originally configured, didn’t work as a team. Ant-Man was too weak. Thor, Giant-Man, and the Hulk were not very far apart in their physical strength. Once again, the original Iron Man was essentially a mechanized Hulk. Kirby once observed, “Here were several personalities that were designed to be solo heroes, and we
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A Couple Of Red-Letter Days (Above:) Even as Stan Lee both plotted and scripted the “Iron Man” feature for the first time ever in Tales of Suspense #48 (Dec. ’63), penciler Steve Ditko gave the hero his new streamlined, red-and-gold armor… as seen in this finale of a three-page sequence of Tony Stark donning it for the first time. Inks by Dick Ayers. (Center right:) The Kirby-penciled cover of TOS #48 was fans’ first glimpse of the new armor, before they opened the issue. Inks attributed to Sol Brodsky. (Bottom right:) Only weeks later, The Avengers #3 (Jan. ’64) featured “the new Iron Man” on the cover with his fellow Assemblers. Cover art by Kirby & Paul Reinman. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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subsequent appearances in his own strip and in The Avengers. Ditko’s conception, especially the “horns” of his faceplate mask, rarely looked the same, as different inkers interpreted them differently, and Jack Kirby also took liberties—or drew from a concept sketch subsequently rethought. The late Greg Theakston reportedly discovered a helmet redesign on the back of one of Ditko’s “Iron Man” pages that suggests that originally the horns were rounded—which is how they appear on certain covers. Stan Lee himself may have added the horns, Theakston thought. Ditko himself told me that his original helmet design was not used, although he did not specify details. I suspect that the helmet that first appeared in Tales of Suspense #48 was a conceptual compromise. It’s hard to account for the delay of the Sub-Mariner story, but it may have come down to scheduling issues, as well as the problems in introducing a definitive new Iron Man and settling on a final version of Ditko’s streamlined design for the character. One of the peculiar elements included in Avengers #2 was a full-page ad for the next issue, showing a Jack Kirby Sub-Mariner surrounded by the heads of the Avengers—one that depicted the bulky, golden Iron Man, suggesting that when that page was published, the new Iron Man had not been conceived. This image looks like a rejected cover, but Marvel covers–– unless they were merely mocked-up concept sketches––were usually drawn after the contents were completed. So what could it have been drawn for? The Comic Reader #16, dated Feb. 23, 1963, carried this teaser: EXPECT TO SEE: A meeting of all the Marvel Comics heroes.
[sic] and other heroes of The Marvel Group (including some new ones) is being considered at this time. That concept somehow morphed into Marvel Tales, an all-reprint annual published the following year. So who would have been the “new” heroes hinted at in the TCR Extra? Perhaps Daredevil, who had lost his printing slot in the Marvel schedule to either The Avengers, would have debuted in this title. It’s a mystery. As is that Sub-Mariner art. That dynamic Sub-Mariner image resurfaced on the splash page of Avengers #3, but it’s obviously a pastedown, surrounded by entirely different heads, including the new Iron Man, inked in a different style by Paul Reinman. Strange that it was reused that way. Splash pages were invariably originals, except for the notable exception of the Daredevil #1 splash, which was probably a concept sketch and also appeared on that first cover. Periodically, that dynamic Sub-Mariner image by itself was recycled for foreign reprints. Inexplicably, the story in Avengers #3 ran 25 pages. At that time, a full-length Marvel story averaged 22 pages, and rarely ran 23 pages. Why? It’s another “Marvel mystery” that will probably never be satisfactorily solved.
Rivets & Remonstrances Steve Ditko left “Iron Man” after only three installments. Years later, he told me that he had found Tony Stark’s recurring heart issues unheroic and had decided to move on. He may also have been unhappy with the ever-changing procession of inappropriate inkers, culminating in Paul Reinman on issue #49.
No such story was forthcoming in 1963. This sounds like a hint of the nascent idea that became The Avengers. But, combined with the premature announcement of an Avengers #2 featuring Prince Namor, I wonder if originally an annual was contemplated wherein virtually all of the new Marvel super-heroes battled the Sub-Mariner, and this idea was turned into the regular Avengers title when it had to be hurriedly substituted for the delayed Daredevil book (as detailed in A/E #118). Or perhaps a Sub-Mariner title was under consideration, and The Avengers’ heads were added later. The above is rank speculation, but a similar annual idea was teased in Comic Reader Extra #1 in the spring, months before The Avengers debuted. It read: MARVEL STORIES, an 80-page comic featuring the FF, Thor, Spiderman
Sea Change? Oddly, a full-page next-issue ad at the end of The Avengers #2 (Nov. ’63) utilized the same Kirby-penciled Sub-Mariner figure that would be reused in the splash page of #3. Inks by Sol Brodsky and Paul Reinman, respectively. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
The Secret Kirby History Of Iron Man
Perhaps it shouldn’t be so surprising that Don Heck returned once again to guide Iron Man’s destiny. He was happy to resume that role, having now a new version of the character closer to his own vision to work from. “I found it easier than drawing that bulky old thing,” he admitted. “The earlier costume, the robot-looking one, was more Kirbyish.” Unlike Ditko, Heck appreciated the inherent drama of the character’s limitations. “If a guy can’t get hurt at all, it limits the interest as far as I’m concerned. You know nothing’s going to happen to him––that’s why Iron Man in the beginning was good, because of the fact that his battery would drain down, and the guy could be in the middle of something, and have to get the hell out of there.” Upon his return, Heck created an important new opponent based on Lee’s suggestion of a Fu Manchu-style character, The Mandarin. The artist also reintroduced the death’s-head look to Iron Man’s helmet that had been absent for so long. “I always tried to put a face, almost like a skull, on Iron Man. I was thinking of a skull look, especially when he got the new
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costume,” Heck stated. A few issues later, he modified Iron Man’s helmet yet again. Gone was Ditko’s flip-up faceplate. In its place was a solid-looking helmet with a weird pattern of rivets. Surviving original art indicates the helmet rivets might have been added after the inking stage. Heck himself was unclear whether he created them, or if they were added by Sol Brodsky during the production stage. “Suddenly rivets were pushed into it,” he recalled. “That was stuff that I got in: ‘We’re changing this.’ I guess it wasn’t selling that well. I was always thinking of a skull-type look. Maybe I did it and Stan said, ‘No, that’s not what we want.’” The facial rivets harkened back to the short-lived riveted side seam on Heck’s original skull-like helmet. After a while, they were scaled back to a simple widow’s-peak array. A year later, they vanished. I asked Stan Lee about the constant changes to the armor design. “I was never happy with Iron Man,” he admitted. “We must have tried a million things. But I never felt like we had the perfect Iron Man costume. All I can tell you is––I was always trying to change Iron Man’s costume! No matter who drew it or who designed it, I was never satisfied.” Gene Colan replaced Don Heck with issue #73 (Jan. 1966) for a long interlude. He, too, did some retooling. Although he retained the basics of the Ditko-Heck version of Iron Man, he made
A Riveting Alternation (Above:) After a few issues of a pair of golden “horns” perched atop Iron Man’s helmet, as per the splash of Tales of Suspense #53 (May ’64), they were suddenly replaced by an odd “rivet” effect with #54 (June ’64), seen at right. Art by Heck, scripts by Lee. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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adjustments in how he portrayed the character in action.
might be found in some of the robot fantasy stories Heck had done in prior years for Stan Lee.
“My approach was that Iron Man needed to be flexible enough to fly around and do the things he was able to do,” Colan said. “The way they had him bulked up, there was no way he could look good. My idea was to thin him down. I tried to make him look as athletic as he could in spite of the armor.”
Absent that lost sketch turning up, we can look at some of his pre-hero robot stories for clues. Characters such as Heck’s pre-hero Hulk, Metallo, Orogo, and similar robotic menaces all have streamlined, sophisticated looks with big square chest or back vents. Otherwise, one can only imagine the possibilities….
Colan struggled to animate Iron Man’s helmet mask: “I thought about his helmet a bit, and I considered how metal can’t move, so I took poetic license with his face mask to show emotion. Not a lot, but just enough to put emotion across.”
But, whatever the details, one element is certain: Iron Man would never have been as blue as his X-Men doppelgänger, Cobalt Man.
Sources:
It was a solution that went back to Jack Kirby’s depiction of the character, which Stan Lee recognized as necessary. “The hardest thing was getting expression on Iron Man‘s mask,” Lee told me. “It looked too dull if it never expressed any emotion such as anger, fear, confusion, whatever. Yet, how do you get an iron mask to change expression? We finally took whatever liberties we could by changing the angle of the eye slits, which helped a little.”
The Art of Jack Kirby. Ray Wyman, The Blue Rose Press, 1992. Don Heck: A Work of Art. John Coates. TwoMorrows Publishing, 2014. “The Goldberg Variations.” Jim Amash, Alter Ego, Vol. 3, #18, Oct. 2002.
Madam, I’m “Adam”! Gentleman Gene Colan’s very first “Iron Man” cover and story were done for Tales of Suspense #73 (Jan. 1966) under his “Adam Austin” pseudonym. Colan’s “crested” look for Ol’ Shellhead largely followed the most recent version by Don Heck and lasted for quite some time. Inks by Jack Abel. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
The Colan armor lasted all through the Silver Age, and beyond. But it was really just an elaboration of the Ditko design, as refined and finalized by Heck.
Conclusion—& Queries Looking back on Iron Man’s difficult genesis, Don Heck seems to have been a key player in the development of the Golden Avenger, even if his most significant contributions were to tweak the armor designs of others. Jack Kirby apparently agreed. He cited Heck and not Ditko as having been instrumental in developing the character when he observed: “Iron Man was a concept of survival. This guy could not survive without a specially designed suit––so with this suit he made himself more powerful than he could ever imagine himself to be. He was almost like a god, but he was also a prisoner of his own invention. Don [Heck] did an excellent job of interpreting Iron Man. He redesigned the costume and strengthened the character. I think what he did was very professional. A character like this should evolve, and I couldn’t have done the job any better.” One wonders: Had Stan Lee accepted Heck’s early redesign, what would a pure Don Heck Iron Man have looked like? Probably not like The Crimson Dynamo, which was a villain design. Or The Titanium Man, who was the last major Iron Man villain created by the team of Lee and Heck. Those designs were even more bulky and cumbersome than Kirby’s Iron Man. Heck might have kept the bullet helmet that he had redesigned. Clues
The Illustrated History of Superhero Comics. Mike Benton, Taylor Publishing Company, 1991. “Iron Man: Almost 44 years later, Don Heck Is Still Drawing Comics.” Will Murray, Comics Scene #37, Sept. 1993. “The Iron Man Mystery.” Will Murray, Comic Book Marketplace #72, Oct. 1999.
“Monster Master.” Will Murray, Comic Scene, Vol. 2, #52, Sept. 1995. “Origins in Iron.” Will Murray, Starlog #364, April 2008. Son of Origins of Marvel Comics. Stan Lee, Fireside Books, 1975.
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JACK KIRBY & The Early-1960s Fanzines by Aaron Caplan
The Golden Age of Comics Fandom
T
he early 1960s were a period of extraordinary growth for comics fandom. Founded by Jerry Bails with an assist by Roy Thomas in March 1961, Alter-Ego (yes, hyphenated for the first four issues) was not the first comics-oriented fanzine, but it was the first to support the super-hero revivals begun at DC in the latter ’50s. At the tail end of the month, Bails sent the spirit-duplicatorprinted Alter-Ego #1 to fans whose addresses had been printed in DC comics and to science-fiction fans whose letters had been printed in SF fanzines he happened to see. Shipped just one week after the first issue of Alter-Ego, but doubtless in preparation earlier, Don & Maggie Thompson’s Comic Art #1 was more of a crossover zine focused on funny-animal comics and newspaper strips, and distributed to a more intellectual group of seasoned sci-fi fans (who absolutely hated the term “sci-fi”). Unlike the Thompsons, who restricted the circulation of Comic Art because they lost money on every mimeographed issue distributed (free), Bails wanted to distribute A/E #1 to as many comics
fans as possible and had soon amassed a huge mailing list… and following. The result was explosive: Alter-Ego had a huge, immediate impact, jump-starting comic fandom, with the fanzine itself splintering into Bailscreated offshoots (On the Drawing Board/The Comic Reader for news, and The Comicollector for ads) that became additional key publications of the new fan movement. As the late and great Bill Schelly wrote, “The golden age of comic fandom had begun.”
The Thing Is… The first artwork ever done by a pro artist for one of the 1960s wave of comics fanzines was the above drawing by Jack Kirby of the Thing, from The Fantastic Four. His pencil sketch was apparently inked (and rather well, too) by editor/publisher Jerry Bails for Alter-Ego [Vol. 1] #4 (Fall 1962). All art accompanying this piece, unless otherwise noted, was provided by Aaron Caplan. [The Thing TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Many of these early publications were considered crudzines: amateurish fanzines that were crudely produced by teenagers using a mimeograph or spirit duplicator (a.k.a. “ditto printing”) process, usually with a maximum print-run of 25 to 200 copies. Crudzines (noted for bad spelling and grammar, often-shallow articles, and abysmally amateurish art) were often, nonetheless, charming in their simplicity, honesty, and zeal for comicbook collecting.
Early Fanzines Featuring Original Kirby Art
Them’s Fighting Words! Kirby penciled this striking pose of his and Joe Simon’s 1950s hero Fighting American for the fanzine Super-Adventures #9 (Fall ’68). [Fighting American TM & © Estates of Joe Simon & Jack Kirby.]
As the popularity of the DC (and then Marvel) super-heroes grew in the early ’60s, the number of comics fanzines increased exponentially. And so did fan interest in Jack Kirby. With an estimated 3000+ comic fanzines produced between 1961 and 1972, there were hundreds that featured Kirby-focused material: feature articles, news stories, interviews, and artwork, along with early analysis, reviews, and commentary on his work. The earliest fanzines with Kirby content originated with that first generation of Marvel fans, writing glowing and enthusiastic articles about Simon & Kirby, Fantastic Four, or Golden Age Captain America. As prolific an artist as Kirby was, he rarely contributed to early fan publications. Even the seemingly “inaccessible” Steve Ditko was heavily engaged in fandom at that time; he actively submitted artwork, covers, fully illustrated comic strips, letters, and opinion pieces to fan editors prior to 1968. While many Kirby illustrations
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were published in the latter part of the decade, these were likely due to his increased participation in such conventions as the New York comics convention (he was the guest of honor in 1966 at David Kaler’s second self-styled “Academy Con”) and the San Diego Comic-Con which was founded in 1970, at which Jack drew many convention sketches. Let’s talk a bit about printing methods, which have a direct bearing on why early fanzines rarely featured Kirby artwork. Many 1960s zines used ditto printing as their primary production method. Ditto machines (also known as spirit duplicators) used a “ditto master,” which was a sheet backed with an inky dye. You would type or draw on the front of the master, which would impregnate the ink onto the back side of the sheet. The image on the back of the sheet appeared in reverse. You would load the ditto master into the machine roller, which used a smelly solvent (ahhh… the smell of purple ink…) to dissolve some of the blue/ purple dye onto your copy paper. Voilà, up to 200 copies could be printed this way. Unfortunately, this made it difficult for fanzine
editors to solicit art contributions from pro artists, as they would have to meet them directly and somehow convince them to draw directly on the ditto master. Yet, that’s exactly what fandom legend Bernie Bubnis and future Wolverine co-creator Len Wein did! Bubnis, who lived in New York City, published two different ditto fanzines with Kirby art: Super Hero Calendar 1964, a calendar in which each page celebrated a month, with top artwork by notable pros including Kirby, who drew the “January” page of “The Cyclops” and Russ Manning (“December” Tarzan back page). Bubnis also published the New York Comicon Booklet 1964, a dittozine commemorating the first official comic convention, held on July 27, 1964, of which he was one of the principal hosts; the zine included a full-page Thor pin-up by Kirby. Wein, another native New Yorker, produced five issues of his fanzine Aurora, some of which included Kirby ditto art. Aurora #3 (July-Sept. 1963) included a Kirby pin-up, while Aurora #4 featured a beautiful multicolored cover of Captain America!
Fans Analyze Kirby’s Style How do you identify various artists, their styles and their techniques? What do you look for? What is it that differentiates Gil Kane from Joe Kubert, Carmine Infantino, or Jack Kirby? Early fanzines attempted to answer these questions. While many fans contributed thoughtful and detailed analyses of Kirby style and techniques (e.g., Kirby expert Bob Cosgrove of Champion and Comic Crusader fame comes to mind), Super-Hero #4, dated Fall 1966, includes my favorite article on the subject, “Artists Anonymous.” The piece was written by editor Mike Tuohey and illustrated by a young 17-year-old Rich Buckler, and accurately described some key Kirby characteristics. “Kirby’s male hands are quite singular. The fingers usually have a stubby look to them; the bones in them seem to extend from wrists to finger tips very frequently. The inner finger is very rarely next to the middle finger…“ [see Figure 5 in
Early Simon-&-Kirby-centric Fanzines… In Glorious Multicolored Ditto! (Above:) A typical feature article by Kirby fan Mike Tuohey (“Look, Mike,” says Aaron, “at least I spelled your last name right!”) and illustrated by future pro Richard “Grass” Green, from April 1963’s Masquerader #4, published & edited by another future pro, Mike Vosburg. The image at left is probably based on a Golden Age pose by The Shield’s originating MLJ artist, Irv Novick—but the one at right is definitely inspired by the short-lived 1960s Archie Comics revival The Double Life of Private Strong, where The Shield was illustrated by Kirby. [The Shield TM & © Archie Comics Publications, Inc.] (Right:) Fan-artist Jim Gardner’s Valor #1 from May 1965 focused on Golden Age comics, in particular the Simon & Kirby super-heroes—but there’s definitely some Silver Age content in there, too! [Shield & Fly TM & © Archie Comics Publications, Inc.; Stuntman, Fighting American, & Speedboy TM & © Estates of Joe Simon and Jack Kirby.]
Jack Kirby & The Early-1960s Fanzines
Kirby Goes Ditto! (Above:) Len Wein’s classic fanzine Aurora #4, with awesome Captain America cover (in color, which required two extra ditto masters). (Top right:) Kirby Thor pin-up published in Bernie Bubnis’ New York Comicon Program Booklet 1964, plus Kirby’s Cyclops illo from Bubnis Super Hero Calendar 1964. Aurora #4 image provided by J. Ballmann; Cyclops & Thor images courtesy of B. Bubnis. [Captain America, Thor, & Cyclops TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
the drawing elsewhere on this page]. Tuohey went on to describe typical Kirby mouths, hair (“always parted on the right side”), eyes (“the left eye is always slightly larger”), faces (“defined cheekbone in the left cheek area is always apparent”), and more.
Early “Interviews” During the first half of the ’60s, most of the interviews published in fanzines were, in one word: lame. Fans had extremely limited access to comic writers and artists; long-distance telephone calls were outrageously expensive, comicbook conventions were not regular events, and unless you lived in New York City and were lucky enough to tour the Marvel or DC offices, you would probably never meet any comicbook creators. A fanzine editor’s only option for interviewing comic pros was to send a list of questions through snail mail. The typical result (if the comic pro would even respond) was a list of inane questions followed by one-word “yes” or “no” answers! As I said: LAME. One of the first people to interview Jack
Since When Was Kirby “Anonymous”? (Right:) From Mike Tuohey’s “Artists Anonymous” analysis of the Kirby style, as greatly enhanced by the awesome artwork of Rich (then “Rick”) Buckler, in the latter’s fanzine Super Hero #4 (Fall 1966). [© the respective copyright holders.]
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Kirby in an entertaining fashion was future pro Len Wein in Mike Vosburg’s fanzine Masquerader #6 from Spring 1964.
Fan Artists Emulate Kirby Speaking of Rich Buckler, who became a serious student of Kirby’s storytelling techniques, take a brief look at some of his early work from Gary Acord’s Dolfin Comics #1 from 1968, seen below. Can you spot the Kirby influence? The first Dolfin issue also showcased the Kirby-esque talents of a young Jim Starlin in his “Dolfin vs. The Big Man” strip. Interestingly, this strip is a reprint of Starlin’s first published comic strip (signing his name as “Jim Star”), which had been published in the dittozine Amateur Komix #3 in 1966!
The “Is Kirby King?” Controversy While most fans of that day adored Kirby, disputes as to whether he was “the best” comic artist were quite common, particularly in the latter half of the ’60s. For example, in The Marvel Tribune #6 (May 1968), Mike Robertson wrote an opinion piece called “Is Kirby Really King?” Robertson, an influential BNF (“big name fan,” a term from SF fandom) and prolific fanzine editor/ columnist, maintained: “For one thing, you find that he draws an unrealistic pose; how many times in real life have you seen anyone stand, walk, or jump with their legs at least four feet apart? Also… ever notice how his characters’ hands are almost always out of
proportion with said characters’ other features?” This generated a thoughtful rebuttal from popular fan artist Don Dagenais in Marvel Tribune #9 (see p. 190). Even “big name fans” who would eventually idolize Jack would argue whether he was the “King” of comic artists. In his “Graphic Traffic” column in Marvel Mirror #5 (1968), 16-year-old Mark Evanier, then known for his DC vs. Marvel rants (Mark was pro-DC), viciously slammed both Kirby and Marie Severin. Regarding Marie, Evanier wrote: “That slop which Miss Severin laughingly calls artwork is the worst ever at Marvel, and the only reason she’s drawing anything is that she’s Stan Lee’s friend.” His Kirby comments were also disparaging: “‘Jack Kirby is the greatest artist in the business!’ says [Stan] Lee… Bullfeathers!” This particular column elicited a caustic letter of comment (LOC) in the next issue from Roy Thomas, then Marvel’s associate editor. Roy’s letter starts with mild accolades on the previous issues’ content, but ends with a no-holds-barred refutation of Evanier’s anti-Kirby/ Severin tirade (again, see p. 190). This was not the first or last time Evanier and Thomas came to verbal blows on the subject of Kirby. Previously, Mark had written anti-Marvel/Kirby letters in the Yancy Street Gazette #10 & 11 (July 1967), published by Steve Ziegler, John Hoecker, & Jan Bertholf. Roy responded by writing a 2-page column in YSG #18 (May 1968) titled “View from the Top: Pros Rank Kirby #1.” In the article, Roy exclaims: “I’m curious… just where does Mark get his (quote) information (and unquote). He must have inherited a cracked
Jim Starlin c. 1969.
Rich Buckler late 1960s.
Channeling Kirby Future pro artists Rich Buckler & Jim Starlin let their Kirby influence shine through in a pair of “Dolfin” stories in the fanzine Dolfin Comics #1 (1968). At left, Buckler ably captures the Kirby style… while, at right, Starlin displays his own Kirby chops! Within a few years, Buckler would be penciling Marvel comics starring such Kirby co-creations as Fantastic Four and The Avengers, and Starlin would debut with work on Iron Man. [© the respective copyright holders.]
Jack Kirby & The Early-1960s Fanzines
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Pro To Future Pro (Left:) Len Wein, who would be a full-fledged professional himself in a very few years, interviewed Jack Kirby for Mike Vosburg’s Masquerader #6 (Spring 1964). Rather than send a list of questions, Wein actually visited Jack’s house! [© Estate of Len Wein.] (Above:) This fan-handwritten version of a Kirby interview appeared in the 1968 fanzine Excelsior— and no, that isn’t Stan Lee’s handwriting! In fact, we’re not sure who wrote it! [© the respective copyright holders.]
crystal ball from Dr. Strange… or, since he’s a DC fan first and always, from whoever it is that Mark Merlin changed into for a few dreadful issues.” (Sorry… I can’t help but snicker, LOL.) Ironically, just two years later, Mark Evanier would quit his job as editor of Marvelmania Magazine, the more or less official Marvel “fanzine,” to work for Kirby, who would very soon migrate to DC. Mark developed a very close, personal relationship with him, wrote Jack’s definitive biography, and is now considered the foremost expert and advocate for Mr. Kirby!
Acknowledgements The author would like to thank the following fanzine historians for their significant input and advice: J. Ballmann and Manny Maris.
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And I Quote… Re Greg Kishel’s Marvel Mirror #6 (June 1968): Marvel associate editor Roy Thomas offered a few choice comments of his own on some remarks by California fan (and future fellow pro) Mark Evanier that had been quoted in the preceding issue. Those two guys are on considerably better terms nowadays (and have been for most of their professional careers); and, based on things he’s since said in public, we kinda suspect Mark’s had a sincere change of heart about the talents of not only Jack Kirby but also Marvel artist Marie Severin. Well, it’s no big deal. Roy’s said (and thought) a number of things he regrets, as well. [© the respective copyright holders.]
“Is Kirby King?” During the ’60s, big name fans incessantly argued whether Kirby was the best comic artist. In Marvel Tribune #9 (Jan. 1969), published by Ron Liberman, fan Don Degenais responded to a piece written three issues earlier by a Mike Robertson that had been less than enthusiastic about Jack’s artwork—and the debate could go on forever! Artist unknown, but at right is the real deal: Kirby’s 1969 Marvelmania selfportrait. [Characters TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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Not STAN LEE’s Soapbox, But STAN LEE’s JACK-In-The-Box! “The Man” Talks About “The King”—1961-2014 by Barry Pearl, F.F.F. Aided and Abetted by Nick Caputo, F.F.F. A/E EDITOR’S INTRODUCTION: The two comicbook professionals with whom Jack Kirby’s name will be forever linked, of course, are the late Joe Simon and Stan Lee—the first his official partner for a decade and a half during the 1940s and the first half of the ’50s, the other his boss but also his de facto “senior partner” for a little over a decade from the late 1950s through 1970 (with a considerably more distant relationship during the latter ’70s). So I recently sent Barry Pearl, who’s spent the past few decades collecting and collating material about the Lee-coined “Marvel Age of Comics,” an e-mail which might (or might not) have been worded precisely as he phrases it directly below....
G
ood Afternoon, Mr. Pearl:
Stan Lee spoke or wrote about Jack Kirby many times over the years. Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to write an article assembling the major instances of these statements and quotes. As always, should you or any of the Yancy Street Gang be caught or clobbered, Ben Grimm will disavow any knowledge of your actions. Please dispose of this message in the usual manner. Good luck, Barry.
Bestest,
Jack Kirby & Stan Lee May I start by explaining why Roy asked me to write this piece? After Stan Lee and Flo Steinberg sent me a stack of comics during a long hospital stay in 1963, I decided to write a book about Marvel. My collecting articles, books, and now videos has never stopped. I didn’t know where to begin on the above assignment, but then I remembered Lewis Carroll, who wrote: “Begin at the beginning and go on till you come to the end; then stop.” So let’s start at Stan’s beginning:
(top of page) Kirby and Lee both speaking at the 1967 New York Comicon. Photos by Mark Hanerfeld and Andy Yanchus. (Left:) The splash of Rawhide Kid #17 (Aug. 1960), probably the first time their names appeared together in print—albeit on opposite sides of the picture (thanks to Barry Pearl for this scan). (Above:) The cover of Fireside/Simon & Schuster’s Silver Surfer graphic novel (1978), perhaps the last occasion on which the two giants collaborated on masterworks that bore their names inside. Thanks to the Grand Comics Database. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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Overstreet: At one time you were an assistant to Simon and Kirby at Timely… What were they like? STAN: Oh, that’s the way I started… They were fine. They were funny. Joe Simon was apparently the boss, and he walked around puffing a big cigar. He talked in a very deep voice and he was great. I liked him, he had a lot of personality. And Jack would sit hunched over the drawing board and do most of the actual art work, also puffing a big cigar. I liked him, too, and it was great watching him draw. They were terrific! In those days, everybody was real busy doing their work. There was a lot of pressure to turn those things in on time, and there wasn’t too much time for anything else…. STAN: Jack was about the best. He was really the most creative artist of all, because he was more than an artist. I call him a great conceptualizer. He could conceive of stories and follow them through. All I would have to do with Jack is give him a very brief outline on what to do, and he would just do the whole story. After a while when we were rushed, I didn’t even give him an outline, he just did whatever story he wanted and I’d come back and put in the copy. He also was an incredibly fast artist, and he had great integrity. Everything he did was his best. He never did less than his best.1 (About Kirby’s speed, Stan states in Marvelmania Magazine #1 that Kirby is a speed demon, drawing three pages a day!)
everywhere refer to the jolly one as Jack King Kirby.3 STAN: [quoting Martin Goodman] “‘You know, Stan, I’ve just seen some sales figures for this DC [Justice League of America] magazine. It’s doing pretty well.… Let’s do a team like the Justice League.’ And I said, ‘Fine.’ I went home and wrote an outline, a synopsis for The Fantastic Four. I called Jack [Kirby], handed him the outline... and said, ‘Read this. It is something I want to do. And you should draw a team.’ Jack, of course, contributed many, many ideas to it and I would venture to say Jack and I created The Fantastic Four, in a way, although the name was mine, the characters were mine, and the concept was mine, originally. But he never pushed me to do super-heroes. Jack was at home drawing these monster stories.”4
STAN: No!2
STAN: It was natural for me to choose Jack Kirby to draw the new superhero book that we would soon produce. Jack had probably drawn more superhero strips than any other artist and he was as good as they come. We had worked together for years, on all types of strips and stories. Most importantly, we had a uniquely successful method of working. I had only to give Jack an outline of a story and he would draw the entire strip, breaking down the outline into exactly the right number of panels replete with action and drama. Then, it remained for me to take Jack’s artwork and add the captions and dialogue, which would, hopefully, add the dimension of reality through sharply delineated characterization.... After kicking it around with Martin and Jack for a while I decided to call our quaint quartet The Fantastic Four. I wrote a detailed first synopsis for Jack to follow, and the rest is history.5
Cal Caputo [1964 interview]: Do you think that Simon and Kirby were a better team than Lee and Kirby?
3 Bring On the Bad Guys, Simon & Schuster; 1st edition (October 1, 1976)
STAN: Nope.
4 New York Times, May 2, 1971
Mike Hodel: Do you think that Simon and Kirby were better than Lee and Kirby?
STAN: Much as I hate to admit it, I didn’t produce our little Marvel masterpieces all by myself. No, mine was the task of originating the basic concept, and then writing the script—penning the darling little dialogue balloons and cuddly captions that have been such a source of inspiration to scholars and shut-ins everywhere…. Heading the list of such artists who have helped create what has come to be known as the Marvel Age of Comics is Jolly Jack Kirby. I originally dubbed him Jolly Jack because it was impossible to tell if he was smiling or not behind Joe Simon & Jack Kirby the massive cigar which formed a protective smoke screen (the latter seated at the drawing board, as usual) in an late-1940s around him while he worked. publicity shot—framed by (above However, to prevent you from right) the lead splash panel from worrying needlessly, I’ll hasten to Novelty’s Blue Bolt, Vol. 1, #2 (July add that he did eventually come ’40), the first time Simon and Kirby up for air, and later on, because teamed up, with Kirby clearly doing of his cataclysmic creativity the penciling—and (bottom right) the and countless contributions to splash from Blue Bolt V1#5 (Oct. ’40), our Marvel mythology, I hung Jack’s first byline with Joe, though he’d the sobriquet of King before his also penciled most of the intervening last name. Thus today, readers “Blue Bolt” stories. Inks by Joe Simon. 1 Overstreet Comic Book Quarterly #4, June 1994 2 Excelsior (fanzine) #1, 1968
Thanks to the Comic Book Plus website for the comics scans. [Art & story © Estates of Joe Simon & Jack Kirby.]
5 Origins of Marvel Comics, Simon & Schuster/A Fireside Book; (September 30, 1974)
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character floating around the artwork—a silver-skinned, smoothdomed, sky-riding surfer atop a speedy flying surfboard. When I asked ol’ Jackson who he was, Jack replied something to the effect that a supremely powerful gent like Galactus, a godlike giant who roamed the galaxies, would surely require the services of a herald who could serve him as an advance guard. I liked the idea. More than that, I was wild about the new character. It didn’t take long for us to christen him with the only logical appellation for a silver-skinned surfboarder—namely, The Silver Surfer.8 STAN: [about laying out a story for a new artist] I can call Jack… I can say, “Jack, make it a 12-page story, and, roughly, this is the plot.” Jack can go home, and the next day he has the whole thing broken down. He gives it to the artist, and the artist just has to worry about drawing his work on the breakdowns. They’d rather have Jack break it down for them once or twice until they get the feeling of it.9 STAN [in a 1962-63 letter to Alter Ego founder Jerry Bails]: ...As for Jack starting strips and then turning ‘em over to less talented artists— well, it’s not quite that simple. The poor guy only has two hands, and can only draw with ONE! I like to have him start as many strips as possible, to get them off on the right foot—but he cannot physically keep ‘em all up—in fact, I sometimes wonder how he does as much as he does do. At present he will concentrate on FF and our new war mag. SGT. FURY—as well as pinch-hitting for other features if and when needed. AND he does almost all of our covers, of course. FF is easily our favorite book at the Marvel bullpen. It’s my baby and I love it. People have asked for original scripts—actually we don’t even HAVE any. I write the story plot—go over it with Jack—he draws it up based on our hasty conferences—then, with his drawings in front on me, I write the captions and dialogue, usually right on the original art work! It seems to work out well, although it’s not a system I’d advise anyone else to try... .10
“…The First Time I Have Found It Necessary To Give The Signal!” Despite the afore-depicted Rawhide Kid and various stories that Stan plotted and Jack penciled, the yarn in The Fantastic Four #1 (Nov. 1961) was the true launching of the Lee-Kirby team. Script by SL; pencil by JK; inking probably by George Klein. Thanks to Bob Bailey. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
STAN: Jack is the greatest artist in the world. He also is a great story man. He does all the breakdowns and basic plots and I provide the dialogue. He didn’t start that way but Jack and I think so much alike.6 Cal Caputo [from same 1964 interview as above]: Who conceived the Fantastic Four, you or Jack? STAN: Both—’twas mainly my idea, but Jack created characters visually. STAN: Some artists, of course, need a more detailed plot than others. Some artists, such as Jack Kirby, need no plot at all. I mean, I’ll just say to Jack, “Let’s let the next villain be Doctor Doom”... or I may not even say that. He may tell me... he just about makes up the plots for these stories. All I do is a little editing.7
COMICS BUYER’S GUIDE: During the Silver Age, you worked a great deal with Jack Kirby. How much of a collaboration actually existed between the two of you? STAN: A tremendous amount. In the beginning, I would give Jack the idea for the character. I would describe the characters and give him an idea on how I wanted them to be. Jack would then draw the story and give me the exact rendition that I was looking for in the character. After a while he was so good at it that I only had to tell him a few words. I mean I would say something like, “In the next story let’s have Dr. Doom capture Sue and have the other three come and get her.” I would tell him a couple more things, and that was about it. He would then draw the whole story and add a million things that I hadn’t even told him. I would get the story back, and some of the things in it I would have liked, and some other things I would have felt he shouldn’t have done. It didn’t matter, though, because it was fun— even the parts that he drew which I felt weren’t quite right for the story. I would try and figure out a way when I was writing the story to make it seem as if I wanted those parts included from the start. I made them seem as if they fit in perfectly. I think we had a great collaboration. Whatever he drew, I was able to write and I was able to enjoy writing it. 11
STAN: After we had discussed the plot for (are you ready for this?) “The Galactus Trilogy,” Jack spent the next few weeks drawing the first 20-page installment. When he brought it to me so that I could add the dialogue and captions, I was surprised to find a brand-new
8 Bring on the Bad Guys, Simon & Schuster; 1st edition (October 1, 1976)
6 WFMU-FM Radio, 1967
10 The Comic Reader #16, February 1963.
7 Castle of Frankenstein #12, 1968
11 Comics Interview, 1999
9 Castle of Frankenstein #12, 1968
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For Marvel Age readers, the beginning is The Fantastic Four #1 in 1961. At that time, it was not common to have an artist’s name on the splash page, but Kirby’s was there near the border, and by issue #11 it was part of an actual credits list. On Fantastic Four #3’s Fan Page, Stan writes: “Considering that our artist signs the name JACK KIRBY on everything he can get his greedy little fingers on, I think we can safely say that’s his name.” In issue #4 (May 1962), a (supposed) writer to the letters page, Jim Moony, asks Stan for a picture of Jack Kirby. Stan’s reply: “Every time Kirby poses for a picture, the camera lens breaks.” [NOTE: Jim Mooney—with an “e”—was a longtime comics-artist associate of Stan’s, so it’s not unlikely that Stan wrote both letter and answer.]
Just Another Day At The Office The cover of Fantastic Four #10 (Jan. 1963) and the first two interior panels from that issue that feature “Lee and Kirby,” four months before the name “Marvel Comics” would be slapped on any of their work. In the very next panel, the pair will be interrupted by none other than Dr. Doom himself. What? You didn’t know that Stan and Jack had help on their efforts from real-life heroes and villains? Inks by Dick Ayers. Thanks to the Grand Comics Database and Barry Pearl, respectively. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
FF #10 not only shows Lee and Kirby on the cover, but on page 5, panel 1, Lee’s caption reads: “…And that, dear reader, is as far as Jack Kirby and I got with our story…” Then the panel displays “the offices of Kirby and Lee.” (It is probably the only time that Stan put Jack’s name first!) Then, atop the “Fantastic 4 Fan Page” in that issue, Lee writes: “Look, enough of that ‘Dear Editor’ jazz from now on! Jack Kirby and Stan Lee (that’s us!) read every letter personally, and we like to feel that we know you and you know us!...” From that point on for the next several years, missives on the letters pages for books the two men worked on together were almost always addressed “Dear Stan and Jack”—even, one suspects, on occasions when the reader may have written “Dear Editor” or some other salutary phrase. As Lee said on a Los Angeles radio program in 1967: STAN: When [fans] write a letter, they don’t say “Dear Editor,” they say “Dear Stan and Jack,” “Dear So-and-So.” They call us by name, and we give ourselves nicknames. We started this as a gag and they’ve caught on. Uh, the fellow here at my right isn’t just Jack Kirby, he’s “Jolly Jack” or… or Jack “King” Kirby.12 In another issue Stan, responding to another letter, writes: “You must be the only reader left who doesn’t know that Stanley writes the stories and Jackie Kirby draws them.”
he still calls him “Jolly” in #32. Beginning in #56. individual credits disappear from FF; henceforth that comic (plus Thor and their other collaborations) is said to be “Produced by STAN LEE & JACK KIRBY.” Mark Evanier: Stan told me something interesting. There was one point in the Spider-Man books when the credits changed from “Art by Steve Ditko” to “plotted and drawn by Steve Ditko…” Stan said that simultaneously he offered the same thing to Kirby— to give him a co-writing credit—and Jack, instead, asked that the credits read “Produced by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby” or some variation of that. If you look at the credits, very rarely after that did it say “Written by Stan Lee.” Jack asked to keep it ambiguous, and Stan went along with it.” 13
Stan plays the credit box straight until Fantastic Four #24, when he begins to write comments along with the credits. He now writes: “Tenderly Drawn by JACK KIRBY,” followed in the next issue by “Astonishing Art by JACK KIRBY”… then “Powerfully Drawn in the Heroic Manner by JACK KIRBY.” Importantly, it’s in Fantastic Four #28 (July 1964) that Stan first refers to Kirby as “The King” in the credits, the initial use of that future regular nickname… though
Marvel’s regular “Bullpen Bulletins” page began in issues dated December 1965, although Stan had been writing a “Special Announcements” section in the letters columns since October 1963. Most often, when Jack Kirby was mentioned in the earlier format, it was regarding a particular comic he was working on. Beginning in October 1964’s letters section/Special Announcements in FF #30, Stan would often refer to Kirby as “Jack (King) Kirby,” picking up on the splash-page credits reference two issues earlier.
12 Stan Lee & Jack Kirby interviewed by Mike Hodel on WBAI FM, NYC, 1967
13 Comic Interview
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inker can really do it justice. 16 WILL MURRAY: Did you have a preferred Kirby inker? STAN: I liked all of our inkers. Dick Ayers was very good on Kirby’s stuff. Sinnott I felt was wonderful. I liked Sinnott, Ayers, Paul Reinman, and Sol Brodsky even, because all four of them could also pencil. Reinman was good because he was also a painter and he inked in masses like a painter. Most of the plots, [Kirby] had much more to do with them than I did. When he did give me the artwork, a lot of times the plots were not the way I would have wanted to do it. So I would change them in the copy and the story ended up not being what I’m sure Kirby expected. It was fun doing them. But I don’t miss the sitting and dreaming up the plots. 17 In an answer to a letter-writer in Fantastic Four #35 (Feb. 1965), Stan says, “We honestly feel that Chic [Stone]’s inking is perfectly suited for Jack’s penciling, and that the ‘King’ has never been better.” Bullpen Bulletin: DIDJA KNOW that most of our amazin’ artists work at home and sometimes don’t visit the bullpen more than once 16 Crusader (fanzine), 1964 17 Interviewed by Will Murray, 2000
This Is No Bull! This Is A Bulletin! Amazingly, it just recently sunk in on A/E’s editor, Roy Thomas, that the regular “Marvel Bullpen Bulletins” page only commenced with the December 1965-dated issues (as seen here), which were in preparation around the time he started working for Stan Lee in early July of that year. Stan had been edging up to such a thing for some time, so that when a full official fan-page officially appeared, the response was less “How great!” than “What took you so long?” And there’s a reference to “JACK (King) KIRBY” in the fourth item on the left. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Bullpen Bulletin: The Fantastic Four… Drawn as usual by Jack (King) Kirby… inked by Chic Stone who seems to have become everyone’s favorite almost overnight.” 14 Bullpen Bulletin: Everybody’s been clamoring for a sample of JACK (King) KIRBY’s inking as well as his pencilling. So, if you’ll remind us next spring, we’ll try to get him to pencil and ink a special pin-up page for one of next year’s annuals. Of course, it will mean our buying him a brush, but no sacrifice is too great to make for you Marvel madmen. 15 Both the above items, of course, were written by Stan. STAN: It’s a funny thing with Jack’s artwork. You never know just how good Jack really is. If he gets a good inker, he looks good. If he gets a bad inker, he looks bad. But Jack Kirby’s penciling is so magnificent no 14 “Special Announcements” section on letters pages in Amazing Spider-Man #15 (Aug. 1964) 15 Marvel Bullpen Bulletins: December 1965
A “King” Comes Riding! Fantastic Four #40 (July 1965) had been the first time that the “Jack (King) Kirby” appellation was used on an actual splash. Before that (and often afterward), it was either just plain “Jack Kirby” or “Jolly Jack Kirby.” Script by Stan Lee; pencils by Kirby; inks by Vince Colletta. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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a month!... And JACK “KING” KIRBY drops in, loaded down with a new mess of masterpieces, once a week. Poor Jack! He is so absentminded that he usually goes home with someone else’s hat, portfolio, or train ticket! Stan wanted to put a label around his neck reading: “If found, please return to the merry Marvel bullpen,” but he couldn’t— Jack lost the label! 18 Stan would often imply that Kirby was okay with changes in artists: Bullpen Bulletin: Dashing DON HECK takes over the pencilling chores on Agent of Shield for this ish, after which JACK KIRBY, the king himself will carry on in following issues. 19 Bullpen Bulletin: JACK (KING) KIRBY himself insisted that Jazzy JOHNNY ROMITA was the only logical illustrator to handle Capt. America in the master’s own style. 20 Bullpen Bulletin: Jolly JACK KIRBY’s ears must be really burning. Every comic mag fan has his own personal favorite among all the artists employed by all the different companies—but, when it comes to the opinion of the pro’s [sic] themselves—when it comes to naming the ARTISTS’ ARTIST, there isn’t even a contest! Every time the conversation here at the Bullpen gets around to artwork (and what ELSE is there to talk about?), you should hear the top men in the field lower their voices when the name of King Kirby comes up. It’s generally agreed that, when you talk of super-hero illustration; of action drawing; of imaginative conceptions; of dynamic, doublebarreled drama; Marvel’s many-faceted master simply has no peer! There is hardly a pro pencil-pusher in the field today who hasn’t been influenced by Jolly Jack’s memorable masterpieces—or by the constantly shattering impact of his creativity. Don’t be embarrassed, Jack—this is just Stan’s cornball way of telling you that it’s been a ball all these years, pal—and the best is still ahead. 21 Bullpen Bulletin: If STAN (The Man) LEE and JACK (King) KIRBY happened to meet the street, they might not recognize each other! The two characters have been so busy lately that they haven’t seen each other in weeks. Can you imagine producing sensational strips like theirs by collaborating over the phone? Well, you better believe it! 22 Bullpen Bulletin: All of Marveldom assembled sends best wishes to Jolly JACK and ROZ KIRBY on their 25th wedding anniversary! We’re beginnin’ to suspect that these two have a good thing going. 23 STAN: Philosophically, there was another thing, and I had a big argument with Kirby about this once. We were being interviewed by Barry Gray in New York. He had a talk show. Jack and I went up there. He wanted to talk to us about Marvel and how it was selling. This was in the middle 1960s. Barry said, “I understand you people are starting to pass DC.” And I said, “Well, we’re doing the best we can, but they’re such a big company and so rich, and we’re just this little company.” And Jack said, “That isn’t true, Stan! Why don’t you tell him we’re better than them? And bigger than them.” And I’m trying to shut him up. I said, “Jack, nobody likes anybody who’s bigger and better. Let them think we’re Avis. We’re just trying harder.” And Jack never understood that. You’ve got to use a little psychology. 24 18 Marvel Bullpen Bulletins: February 1966 19 Marvel Bullpen Bulletins: January 1966 20 Marvel Bullpen Bulletins: May 1966 21 Marvel Bullpen Bulletins: April 1967 22 Marvel Bullpen Bulletins: May 1967
“Friends, Romans, Countrymen…” One of the many colorful costume designs that Jack Kirby drew in 1969 for a production of Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar at the Vera Cruz University Theatre… in fact, this is the one for Julie himself! Matter of fact, a whole 13 plates’ worth of these designs has recently been published in an 8½" by 11” portfolio, which are being sold on the site of the Jack Kirby Museum. Thank to Rand Hoppe. See p. 234 for an ad for the Kirby Museum. [Art © Estate of Jack Kirby.]
Bullpen Bulletin: Jolly JACK KIRBY won three “Best Artist” awards from different fan groups in just one week. 25 Bullpen Bulletin: This we’ve gotta tell you! The world-famous Society for Comic Art Research and Preservation, the largest group of comic-book fans in the nation, recently completed their annual International Convention of Comic Art at New York’s famed StatlerHilton Hotel…. [Among the awards it handed out were:] Best Editor: STAN (The Man) LEE; Best Writer…Smilin’ STAN, again!... Best Pencil Artist: JACK (King) KIRBY… Best Inker: Joltin’ JOE SINNOTT. 26 On a more personal note, the Bullpen Bulletins for Jan. 1969 (in, e.g., Fantastic Four #81) announced that “JOLLY JACK KIRBY’s handsome son Neal has just announced his engagement….” Bullpen Bulletin: Here’s an announcement we make with mixed emotions. JACK (King) KIRBY and family are leaving New York and moving to California. In fact, by the time you read this, the King will already be settled on the shores of the blue Pacific! But don’t panic, pilgrim—he’ll still be doing his bit for the Bullpen,
23 Marvel Bullpen Bulletins: December 1967
25 Marvel Bullpen Bulletins: November 1968
24 Interview with Will Murray, 2000
26 Marvel Bullpen Bulletins: December 1968
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same as ever. It’s just that he’ll be spending most of his extra cabbage on air-mail stamps rather than those king-size cigars he loves to sport. Actually, it’s a terrific deal for the Great One, who certainly deserves his place in the sun; but poor ol’ Stan has conniptions every time he thinks of the long-distance phone bills he’s going to run up each month when he calls his pantin’ partner to discuss their latest plots! Hooo boy!27
Bachelor: To what do you attribute Jack’s loyalty throughout all these years?
Bullpen Bulletin: Speaking of JOLLY JACK, many longtime fans have been writing to say that THE FANTASTIC FOUR is getting better with each issue—with the stories reading more like the memorable masterworks of the FF’s early years. This kinda breaks us up, because it’s beginning to seem as though we have to take a few steps back in order to surge forward!
Bachelor: How would you feel if Jack Kirby ever left?
Incidentally, on the same Bullpen Bulletins page, Stan mentions that Kirby has done the costume designs for the Vera Cruz University Theatre’s Shakespeare production of Julius Caesar.28 Bullpen Bulletin: And how’s this for an eye-opener? JACK (KING) KIRBY has done both the script and the pencilling for a dynamite thriller in the current issue of CHAMBER OF DARKNESS! For those of you who never knew that the Jolly One is as gifted a writer as he is an artist, this will be a real serendipity. And, speaking of J.K., he and his radiant Roz are now building their own home in sunny California. He should worry about how much we have to spend on postage stamps!29
STAN: Basically, Jack’s a loyal person. He’s had a hand in so many of these strips. I know the way I feel about them. To leave would be almost like abandoning your children. If you are happy and doing well somewhere, there’s never any reason to leave.
STAN: I’d cry a little. Bachelor: Do you feel Marvel Comics would quite be the same if he did leave? STAN: Fortunately, I don’t think any one person’s holding the whole place up. For example, Spider-Man with John Romita is one of our best-selling books… Daredevil with Gene [Colan] is doing well, and down the line we do have others. But I think there is no doubt that Jack has set the pace. 30 STAN: Jack is the greatest mythological creator in the world. Well, we—we kicked Thor around and we came out with him. And I thought he would just be another book. And I think that Jack has 30 Bachelor College Magazine, 1968
27 Marvel Bullpen Bulletins: June 1969 28 Marvel Bullpen Bulletins: January 1970 29 Marvel Bullpen Bulletins: April 1970
If I Had A Hammer… (Left:) Stan and Jack, aided by the scripting of Stan’s brother Larry Lieber, brought a super-hero version of Thor, the mythological Norse god of thunder, to comicbooks with Journey into Mystery #83 (Aug. 1962). Inks by Joe Sinnott. Thanks to Doug Martin. (Above:) Lee felt “Thor” had been his initial idea, while Jack (who had previously drawn a couple of other one-time versions of Thor and his hammer for DC Comics) maintained that he brought the notion to the editor. However it happened, and despite a whizbang of an origin tale, “Thor” didn’t really take off until Lee began scripting the stories with issue #97 (Oct. 1963)—even more so after Kirby soon became the resident penciler— after which it steadily rose to become a continuing work of increasingly epic grandeur. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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…When Jack drew, you had the feeling that Jack had the entire drawing in his mind, and when he put the pencil on the paper, he was just “tracing” what he already had in his mind. Most artists would draw a circle for the head and a circle for the body, and then they’d start filling it in, but Jack would just start with the head and he would draw it, and every line was right there from the start. He didn’t make little rough drawings first… it was the most eerie feeling, watching him draw—you felt he was tracing what was already in his head. Jack Kirby… was the most dependable artist in the world. He never missed a deadline. He never did a bad job… all his jobs were great. It’s hard to talk about Jack without sounding as if you’re exaggerating, because that’s how good he was. 32 A sad chapter in the relationship between Lee and Kirby was ignited by a newspaper article by Nat Together Again For The First Time! Freedland of the New York Herald Since there was just a passing reference in Stan’s Soapbox that month of Kirby’s departure, readers would certainly Tribune, published at the turn of 1966. have been forgiven—especially by an anxious Stan Lee—if they had believed that the stories in Fantastic Four #103 In explaining Marvel’s success, he and Thor #180 (both Sept. 1970) had been drawn by the same artist who’d drawn most previous issues—but in fact they had been done, respectively, by the teams of John Romita & John Verpoorten, and Neal Adams & Joe Sinnott. just concentrated on Lee, whom he Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.] called “an ultra-Madison Avenue, rangy look-alike of Rex Harrison.” turned him into one of the greatest, uh, fictional characters there But notice how Freedland puts down Jack Kirby even while are. Somebody was asking him how he gets his authenticity in the making a nod to Kirby’s contribution to Marvel’s success: costumes and everything. And I think a priceless answer Jack said was, “They’re not authentic. If they were authentic, they wouldn’t be Here he [Stan Lee] is in action at his weekly Friday morning authentic enough.” But he draws them the way they should be, not summit meeting with Jack “King” Kirby, a veteran comic the way they were. 31 book artist, a man who created many of the visions of your childhood and mine. The King is a middle-aged man with STAN: When you talk about Kirby, you really run out of baggy eyes and a baggy Robert Hall-ish suit. He is sucking superlatives. Jack was a writer as well as an artist (as many of the a huge green cigar, and if you stood next to him on the legends were). He was incredibly imaginative, and he did his most subway you would peg him for the assistant foreman in a important writing with his drawing. When I say that I mean, if 1 gave girdle factory. Jack a very brief idea of what I wanted for a story, he would run Mark Evanier: That article did enormous damage to Jack, personally with it. I could say, “Jack, in this next story, I think I’d like to have Dr. and professionally…. It convinced Jack he couldn’t get the proper Doom kidnap Sue Storm and bring her to Liberia, then the Fantastic recognition there [at Marvel]…. [Stan would] say, “I never fully Four have to go after her, and in the end Dr. Doom may promise that understand why Jack or Steve [Ditko] left.” Steve’s reasons were pretty he won’t hurt Sue if they do something, and Reed says, OK, I agree, obvious, and so were Jack’s, and I’d explain them to Stan. He would and the Thing would say, how can you trust him, and Reed would nod. And then three months later he’d say, “Can you explain to me say, despite all of his faults Doom is a man of honor, he would never what Jack is upset about?” 33 lie.” I would discuss the idea with Jack like that and that was all I had to do. And then Jack would go home and he would draw the story It was not Stan’s fault that newspapers wrote what they wrote, and he would add a million elements that I hadn’t told him about, and he was always trying to get the most publicity possible. From so he was really writing in pictures and dreaming up ideas along the my personal point of view, the writers of these newspaper stories way. And then when I did write the copy [the words, dialogue, and knew nothing of comics and mostly never read one. Here are just captions], it was such a joy, because all 1 had to do was look at the a few of the articles that ignored the artists, which will give you illustrations that Jack had done and each picture gave me a thousand some insight as to why Kirby was upset: new ideas. Jack never did a dull panel. Every drawing of his contained an expression on the character’s face that almost told me what kind of Dallas Times Herald [1975]: In the beginning was Stan Lee. And Stan dialogue to write. Jack could get more drama into a few lines than any Lee created the Fantastic Four. And he saw that it was good. And the artist I knew. His imagination and the things he came up with were Fantastic Four begat the Hulk and Spider-Man. wonderful… and on top of all that, he was fast! I don’t know how anybody could have been that good and that fast…. There was only one other artist I knew who was as fast as Jack, perhaps even a little 32 Comic Book Marketplace #61, July 1998 faster… that was Joe Maneely. 33 “It’s Stan Lee’s Universe,” article by Abraham Riesman for 31 WBAI Radio, 1967 Vulture online magazine, 2016
Not Stan Lee’s Soapbox, But Stan Lee’s Jack-In-The-Box!
New York Times Magazine [May 2 1971]: The turnabout came in 1961, when Stan Lee metamorphosed the Marvel line and very likely saved comic books from an untimely death. The Press Telegram Newspaper of Long Beach, CA [Aug. 19, 1977]: First he begot The Fantastic Four, a cosmic powered quartet… and the Fantastic Four begot The Hulk and The Hulk begot Spider-Man, who begot a whole lot of success for Stan Lee. Newsday, of Long Island [June 8th, 1978]: It was Lee’s fertile mind that created the many superheroes who were eventually to make Marvel mighty. As late as the Bullpen Bulletins page in Fantastic Four #100, a mere two months before he decamped for DC Comics, the following item appeared: “We just had a visit from JACK (KING) KIRBY, who winged his way eastward from sunny California to rap it up with Stan about the new INHUMANS series the Jolly One will be producing in the forthcoming AMAZING ADVENTURES. Sly ol’ Stan not only conned Jack into doing two yarns at once, but even cajoled the King into doing the script as well as the penciling for this great new series.” There’s another reference to this upcoming feature by “King Kirby” in the following issue of FF.
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illustrating at that point). But there’s nary a mention of Jack Kirby amid the Bulletins, or in any of the magazines’ letters pages. So far as we could find, Kirby was not mentioned again on the Bullpen Bulletins page until he returned to Marvel five years later. Marvel’s then associate editor Roy Thomas says that, while Stan Lee never discussed the matter specifically with him, he suspects his boss didn’t know quite how to tell readers that Jack had left—because it had been so totally unexpected by him at the time, unlike Ditko’s exit several years earlier—so Lee decided to barely mention it, and mostly to deal verbally with all the changes and artistic musicalchairs that Kirby’s departure had caused. The reader had to puzzle out the rest for himself. Kirby’s leaving Marvel in 1970 was, however, a question Stan was often asked about in the days and years to come. Here is his fullest reply: STAN: I hated losing Kirby. To me, the FF has never been the same since Kirby left… I really don’t know why he left. I think it was a personal thing. Jack never told me. I think it could be as simple as that he got sick of everything he did saying “by Stan Lee and Jack
Some comics readers (most of whom didn’t read fanzines, the only real source of comics news in those days) must have been confused when not only did John Romita rather than Kirby pencil the cover of Fantastic Four #102 (Sept. 1970), but the “Stan’s Soapbox” in that issue began: Who says lightning never strikes twice? Remember a few years back when Steve Ditko suddenly left the hallowed halls of Marvel to seek his fortunes elsewhere? Well, at the time of this writing (early in March), Jack Kirby has unexpectedly announced his resignation from our surprised but stalwart little staff. The rest of the Soapbox is basically a commitment to continue to provide “some of the wildest and wackiest surprises yet to electrify your eyeballs and stagger your senses!” In the rest of the Bullpen Bulletins page, which many probably read before the Soapbox, Stan wrote that Marvel was “so wrapped up in changing our schedules, juggling our artist-writer team-ups, and planning a whole plethora of pandemonious new projects for you, that we’re afraid to make any definite pronouncements right now”—followed by a fairly lengthy biography of John Romita, without mentioning that he was taking over the penciling of Fantastic Four. (#102’s letters page, prepared before the Bulletins page, was still composed of letters addressed to “Dear Stan and Jack,” though by #103 that had been changed to simply “Dear Stan.”) It was left for the Bulletins page appearing in FF #103 and elsewhere to sound a more triumphal note, if a rather non-specific one: Bullpen Bulletins: ITEM! Let’s face it—this is probably mighty Marvel’s proudest and most crucial hour! Even here, at the worldfamous House of Ideas, we’ve never made so many sudden, cataclysmic changes, or taken so many unexpected, unprecedented gambles! Never before has any leading magazine company dared to switch the artist line-ups of some of the world’s best-selling mags! But, despite our countless other faults, we’ve never been accused of being timid… and the announcements that follow will show you why—
Not To Be Nega-tive About It…
The rest of the page (which appeared in all Marvel comics that month, of course, not just FF) belatedly reveals that Romita is now the penciler of Fantastic Four, with Gil Kane relieving Romita on Amazing Spider-Man, while Neal Adams will be drawing Thor (the only full comic besides FF that Kirby had been regularly
Not long before Kirby quit Marvel, he had penciled another issue of Fantastic Four, with which Stan was less than satisfied… so it had gone on the shelf, until such time as Stan could ask Jack to do a bit of redrawing. A few months afterward, with “revisions, deletions, and addenda” by John Buscema and John Romita, that story and art were the basis of FF #108 (March 1971). Inks by Joe Sinnott. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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“The Man” Talks About “The King”—1961-2014
STAN: The one thing I remember and felt bad about when Jack left was that I had been thinking about—and maybe I even talked to him about it—that I wanted to make Jack my partner in a sense; I wanted him to be the art director, and I thought that he could serve in that function and I would serve as the editor. Maybe this was way earlier, but I was disappointed when he left, because I always felt that Jack and I would be working there forever and doing everything. 36
Kirby.” Maybe he just wanted to do his own thing and have the book say “by Jack Kirby.” But as far as I was concerned, if he had told me he wanted to do his own book, I’d have said fine and let him write it and draw it, but he never said it to me. I’ve heard that he was tired of doing things that he never owned a copyright on, shares of the profits, and so on. I wish I had the same thing, I don’t blame him. But what surprises me is that he doesn’t have any copyright now at National [DC] as far as I know. So, I really don’t know why he left. And I will say in all honesty that I’d like Jack to come back, I want him to come back eventually. I sort of half expect that he’ll come back when his contract ends, I think he’d be making a mistake not coming back. I say he did his best work at Marvel, his style is pure Marvel. I also must admit that he has so many books at National that have failed, whereas if they had been for Marvel, I think they still would be published, especially New Gods.
Lee and Kirby had actually said similar things about collaborating on comics and with each other: Comics Journal: Would you ever do a book all by yourself… do the pencils, inks, story, everything? KIRBY: Not necessarily, no. I don’t feel that I should do everything myself... you know, everybody has that feeling, that ‘boy, if they could let me by myself.’ Nobody does anything by themselves; nobody ever does. When a guy comes out and makes a statement ‘I did this,’ you can be sure 50 people helped him. It’s true. The only time you do something by yourself is when you’re in trouble.37
The thing about Jack is that, though he’s a very good story man and good artist, he tends to get Jack Is Back! too wrapped up in what he wants When the “King” returned to Marvel, Stan played up his becoming the to do that he forgets what readers writer/artist of Captain America, a character he had co-created, beginning might want. I think his material with issue #193 (Jan. 1976)—with a story inked by Frank Giacoia. Thanks to was a little better with us because Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.] STAN: Comic books are a we exercised some control. I collaborative medium. Had I not remember on the very first issue of The Fantastic Four I suggested the worked with artists like Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko... all those guys… my synopsis of a monster and Jack drew 100 red monsters. I said, quote, stories would not have looked as good. OK, I might have had the first Jack it’s more dramatic to have one monster that the reader worries idea for the characters, but after I would tell Jack about it, or Ditko about, unquote. The trouble with Jack is that he is so imaginative he about it, or John Romita, I didn’t have time to write fully fledged tries to put every idea he can think of on every page. He tries to make scripts. So I would tell them roughly what I wanted the story to be every page a whole new original thought and action. That isn’t a good and they would draw it any way they wanted to. I didn’t give them story. You have to build up a mood. You’ve got to take one idea and a script that said, “Panel one, draw this, panel two, draw that.” I just stretch it over a few pages and milk the utmost drama out of it. It’s a said, roughly, “This is the story I want to tell, go to it, guys.” These matter of pacing. Jack goes too fast, you don’t have a chance to catch guys were writers themselves. But they would write with pictures. And 34 your breath reading his stories. they would give me the artwork. I would put in the copy, I’d write STAN: I really don’t know, why [Jack Kirby left]. We really never had an argument of any sort. I think Jack thought he wasn’t getting paid enough. And of course that was not up to me; that was up to the publisher who paid him. And I did not want Jack to go. I said at the time, “Jack, instead of being a freelance artist, why don’t you join the staff? I’ll tell our publisher to make you my partner.” You see, I was the editor, and art director and the head writer. “I’ll make you the art director. I’ll be the editor, we will work together as a team, you’ll make the same salary as I do and we’d be a team.” I would have loved that. He didn’t want to do it. He said that he wanted to be a freelancer. He thought he could make more money, I think, at DC. And he worked there. I don’t think it worked out; he eventually came back to us.35 34 Great Britain’s Fantasy Advertiser #55, 1975 35 Video of Stan Lee, October 1, 2008
the dialogue and the captions. It was a total collaborative affair and sometimes I feel a little guilty, you know, “Stan did this, Stan did that.” I did it, but I did it with them. And they really deserve as much credit as I ever get.38
STAN: I think if he comes back I’d like someone else to write the stories the way we always did. I’d like Jack to plot them—he’s great at plotting them, breaking them down—but I’d like someone else to put in the dialogue and so forth. We can’t have people doing their own thing, because in the Marvel world, everything meshes with 36 Interview with Roy Thomas, Comic Book Artist #2, 1998 37 Comics Journal, 1975 38 The Comic Art Professional Society (newsletter), 2008
Not Stan Lee’s Soapbox, But Stan Lee’s Jack-In-The-Box!
everything else, so it all has to tie in. 39
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emotion that you put in. To me, nobody could convey emotion and drama the way you could. I didn’t care if the drawing was all out of whack because that wasn’t important. You got your point across and nobody could ever draw a hero like you could. And I just want to say without getting too saccharin that one of the marks I think of a really true great artist is he has his own style. And you certainly had and still have your own style and it’s a style that nobody has even been able to come close to. And I think that’s something you can be very proud of and I’m proud of you for it.
Bullpen Bulletin: This month’s news is too big to hold off for another minute! Jack Kirby is back! Yup, that’s right! Ol’ King Kirby (and don’t forget, it was at Marvel that he got that sobriquet) has returned to the bosom of the blushing bullpen. This is where his heart is—this is where it all started—and this is where one of the greatest talents and comics belongs…. And, just to prove the master’s hand still hasn’t lost its touch, he’ll be taking over the strip he started more than three decades ago—the one and only CAPTAIN AMERICA! Jack’ll KIRBY: I have to thank you for be writing and drawing the whole helping me to keep that style, magilla by his lonesome…. But, as Stanley, and helping me to evolve soon as Jack and I get a breather all that and I’m certain that and when you least expect it, whatever we did together, we got watch for a gigantic special edition sales for Marvel and I – of—you guessed it—THE SILVER SURFER! Anyway, one of the most LEE: I think it was more than that, dramatic moments at the Mighty Jack. We got the sales, and no Words, Words, Words… Marvel Con, which was held at matter who did what, and I guess During an August 1989 radio exchange between in-house guest Jack Kirby Easter time, was when most of that is something that will be and phone-in Stan Lee, a query was raised about the authorship of the the Bullpen was on the stage for a argued forever, but I think there precise lines spoken by Galactus (his “exit speech”) on p. 10 of Fantastic panel discussion of The Fantastic Four #50 (May 1966). The question was not settled... but it still seems safe to was some slight magic that came Four, and I mentioned that I had a say that the script was by Lee, the art by Kirby, and let folks argue about the into effect when we were working special announcement to make. As rest in some other place. Inks by Joe Sinnott. Scan courtesy of Barry Pearl. together and I am very happy that I started telling about Jack’s return, [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.] we had that experience. to a totally incredulous audience, everyone’s head started to snap around as Kirby himself came KIRBY: Well, I was never sorry for it, Stanley. It was a great experience waltzing down the aisle to join us on the rostrum. You can imagine for me and certainly if the product was good, that was my satisfaction, how it felt clownin’ around with the co-creator of most of Marvel’s and I’ve, I’ve felt like that and I, I think it’s the feeling of every good greatest strips once more…. 40 professional. And it’s one of the reasons I respect you is the fact that, you know, you’re certainly a good professional and, and you’re STAN LEE, interviewed by Jules Feiffer [1998]: Nobody drew like certainly fond of a good product, and I feel that’s the, that’s the mark Jack Kirby. He was not only a great artist, he was also a great visual of all of us. storyteller. I would say, “Look, Jack, here’s the story I want you to tell.” And Jack would bring back the story that I had given him, but At one point, Reece made a statement that ended by voicing he would also add a lot of imaginative things of his own. He should in passing an uncertainty about whether the dialogue in Galactus’ have been a movie director. He knew when to make a long shot, a “exit speech” in Fantastic Four #50 had been written by Stan or close-up. He never drew a character who didn’t look interesting or Jack… and Stan’s quick response (followed by Jack’s response to it) excited. In every panel there was something to look at. (Reprinted in soon made it clear the pair had quite different views on how they Dr. Jeff McLaughlin’s Stan Lee: Conversations, 2007, from Civilization, had done their comics, and even about what they had done in them. June-July 1998.) The following exchange is virtually verbatim, omitting only a few short remarks interjected by Reece and/or Knight, which were In August 1987, on WBAI Radio in New York, Stan phoned basically ignored by the other two, who at one point were talking in to a talk show hosted by Robert Knight on which Jack Kirby over each other as well: was the major guest, on the occasion of his 70th birthday, also via phone. Likewise present, in the studio, was 1970s Marvel staffer LEE: Oh, I’ll say this: Every word of dialogue in those scripts was Warren Reece. By this time, Kirby had left Marvel and, for the most mine. Every story. part, the comicbook field: KIRBY: I can tell you that I wrote a few lines myself above every LEE [to Kirby, via phone]: You know, you were talking earlier about panel… your drawing and people sometimes criticized your figures and LEE: They weren’t printed in the books. Jack isn’t wrong by his own so forth. I always felt that the most important thing about your rights because—Jack, answer me truthfully— drawings—I remember when I was a kid and I first saw Captain America, it wasn’t the correctness of the anatomy, but it was the KIRBY: I wasn’t allowed to write… 39 Comic Book Marketplace #61, 1998 40 Marvel Bullpen Bulletins: October 1975
LEE: [continuing from previous] —did you ever read one of the stories after it was finished? I don’t think you did. I don’t think you ever read one of my stories. I think you were always busy drawing the next one.
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“The Man” Talks About “The King”—1961-2014
STAN: I just want to say that Jack has, I think, made a tremendous mark on American culture if not on world culture, and I think he should be incredibly proud and pleased with himself, and I want to wish him all the best, him and his wife Roz and his family, and I hope that ten years from now I’ll be in some town somewhere listening to a tribute to his 80th birthday and I hope I’ll have an opportunity to call at that time and wish him well then too. Jack, I love you.41
The Wedding-Crashers While their faces weren’t shown, Jack Kirby and Stan Lee tried to gain entrance to the wedding of Reed and Sue Richards at the end of the story “Bedlam in the Baxter Building” in the 1965 Fantastic Four Annual. Was this the last time Jack and Stan appeared together in a Marvel story before 1978? [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
That was the last time that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby ever spoke on the same forum. And, from a 2005 interview with Stan Lee: DAN EPSTEIN: Are you sorry you were never able to patch things up with Jack Kirby before he passed? STAN: We did patch things up. Everything was fine. I met him at a convention and we talked for a while. I even spoke to his wife. In the later years, people had been telling Jack that he had been cheated and not treated well, so he sort of lumped me in with the rest of management. But at the end, he realized I wasn’t management in those days. 42 Finally, from a Playboy interview that Stan Lee gave in 2014:
You never read the book when it was finished. KIRBY: [continuing from previous] …dialogue, Stanley… my own dialogue. And that, I think that’s the way people are. So whatever was written in them was—well, it, you know, it was the action I was interested in. LEE: But I don’t think you ever felt that the dialogue was that important. And I think you felt, well, it doesn’t matter, anybody can put the dialogue in, it’s what I’m drawing that matters. And maybe you’re right. I don’t agree with it, but maybe you’re right.
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There was a bit more of an exchange—without any sort of agreement or meeting of the minds—and Lee made his exit from the phone call thus:
STAN: I’ll tell you, the last thing Jack Kirby said to me was very strange. I met him at a comic book convention right before the end. He wasn’t that well. He walked over and said, “Stan, you have nothing to reproach yourself about.” He knew people were saying things about me, and he wanted to let me know I hadn’t done anything wrong in his eyes. I think he realized it. Then he walked away. 43 Barry Pearl was awarded the status of being a “Fearless Face Fronter” by Stan Lee himself for his book The Essential Marvel Age Companion: 1961-1977, a 1400-page interactive volume covering every single Marvel comic and story during that period… a total of more than 5000. A full blog is at: https://forbushman.blogspot.com/. He has written for The International Journal of Comic Art; 75 Years of Marvel (Taschen); The Stan Lee Story (Taschen); The Jack Kirby Quarterly; The Stan Lee Universe (TwoMorrows); Kirby, King of Comics; The Art of Steve Ditko; Alter Ego; and Ditkomania. He has also written introductions for editions of Marvel Masterworks and for PS Artbooks’ Pre-Code comics reprint series. 41 “Earth Watch” with Robert Knight, WBAI radio, 1987 42 Exclusive interview by Daniel Robert Epstein, 2005 43 Playboy, November 2014
A Good Cast Deserves A Curtain Call… (Left to right:) The two gents responsible for the foregoing article, plus the third member of the self-styled “Yancy Street Gang”… Nick Caputo, Barry Pearl, and Dr. Michael J. Vassallo, with a copy of the 2015 Taschen volume 75 Years of Marvel: From the Golden Age to the Silver Screen. When this photo first appeared in A/E #136, Ye Editor accidentally misstated that it was taken at the publishing company’s New York bookstore; however, it was actually snapped at the New York Book Fair that year. Courtesy of BP.
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The Top 10 JACK KIRBY Marvel Slugfests (1961-1970) According To John “The Mego Stretch Hulk” Cimino
T
he Slugfest. That’s a term used in the comicbook world, where costumed characters engage in battles so grandiose that they capture the imagination of readers for years to come. The slugfest was first brought to life by the greatest comicbook artist of them all, Jacob Kurtzberg, best known by his pen name Jack Kirby. Throughout the 1940s, Kirby began revolutionizing what was to become known as dynamic storytelling. But who could’ve predicted that he would raise the bar even higher some twenty years later, in the 1960s, when he began collaborating with his former gofer Stan Lee and co-created the Marvel Universe? Whether it was just “time” or whether Lee brought it out of him, somehow at the age of 44, Jack Kirby was able to reinvent himself and leap to unprecedented new heights of creativity and transform his already unique storytelling style into a magnificent symphony of comicbook calamity that set the standard for not only Marvel Comics, but the entire industry. When his heroes clashed, the Earth shook, buildings came crashing down, and crowds ran for cover. Yes, Jack Kirby was the undisputed king of comics, and he would inspire new comic artists unlike any other. Being a young impressionable kid from Waltham, Massachusetts, it was no different for me. I gravitated to Jack Kirby’s work the moment I saw the reprinted cover of Fantastic Four #25 in the pages of the Simon & Schuster hardcover collection Marvel’s Greatest Superhero Battles as a ten-year-old back in 1984. Kirby’s art was like nothing I had ever seen before and much different from the art in most comics on the racks at the time. The way the Hulk and the Thing looked, the way they were locked in combat, the way everyone stood back and watched, it was all, dare I say it—so Kirbylicious. For more than a year, that book never left my side, and the more I dug into it, the more I fell under the Kirby spell. To this day, Jack Kirby’s action-packed battles are the stuff of legend. They’re talked about in comic shops, at comic conventions, and all over social media. You can see their influence in not just the comics stories of today, but in video games, cartoons, and major motion pictures (next time you see a super-hero get punched through a few buildings at the movies, be sure to give Mr. Kirby a silent thank-you). In writing this article, I went through literally hundreds of comics by Jack Kirby, and getting my list down to just ten of my favorite fights was a daunting task indeed. You’ll notice they’re all from Marvel comics between 1961 and 1970—’cause that’s when I feel Kirby’s slugfests reached their peak. I’m sure there will be a few readers out there who will disagree with some of my choices, but hey, Roy Thomas chose me to give you my list, and who am I to argue with “The Boy” when it comes to honoring “The King”? So sit back, get comfortable, and enjoy the Kirby Krackle, because these are THE 10 GREATEST JACK KIRBY SLUGFESTS OF ALL TIME!
Cimino Discovers Kirby (Left:) Little Johnny Cimino in 1984, reading his copy of Marvel’s Greatest Superhero Battles—and (below) Jack Kirby’s cover for Fantastic Four #25 (April 1964), which JC says was a life-changing event for him. Inks by George Roussos. Thanks to John for the images. [Cover TM & ©Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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Kirby’s Greatest Hits—Literally!
10.) THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #8 (1963): Spider-Man vs. The Human Torch The first (or, to phrase it another way, the tenth) fight on my top ten list may be a little bit of a surprise to most of you. While the Hulk will toss around buildings and punch holes through battleships in his slugfests to prove he’s the strongest one there is, Spider-Man tackled The Human Torch over something with a little more substance: the attention of Torch’s girl friend Doris Evans (can you blame him? she was a hottie). With the rare combination of Jack Kirby’s pencils, Steve Ditko’s inks, and Stan Lee’s dialogue, this was a six-page hormone-filled story/fight that flowed perfectly to grab the attention of the teenage reader. It was like Archie Comics meshing together with Marvel Comics, and it totally captivated me. I felt for Spidey, as he was this “creepy” costumed hero on the outside, facing the “cool kid” that was Johnny Storm and his brand new XK Jag that all the girls swooned over. Matter of fact, the early interactions between the Torch and Spidey (in The Amazing Spider-Man #1 and Strange Tales Annual #2) were stellar scraps, filled with teen-angst and fun that captured the magic of the early Marvel heroes.
I Lick Ulik! Kirby’s cover for Thor #137 (Feb. 1967). Inks by Vince Colletta. Scan from JC. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
9.) THOR #137-139 (1967): Thor vs. Ulik Jack Kirby had Thor clashing with many super-heavyweights during his run on this title. Why does Ulik, the big bad Rock Troll, get the nod over the others? Well, Thor brawling it out with Ulik was always tremendous in my eyes. While this 3-part (or 3-round) story was their first and best slobber-knocker, IMHO, historically, all their fights were incredibly entertaining. Each one was consistently action-packed, brutal, and full of sheer mass destruction! You had to love Ulik’s insane eagerness to fight the Thunder God and to prove he was better than Thor in every way. With that kind of ego-driven-motivation, all their fights were long battles of attrition that Thor usually won in the end. But Ulik was a stubborn, proud bully who always returned for more with renewed vigor. Kirby laid the foundation of their rivalry in these three issues, and both God and Troll never looked better.
Torch Song The back-up “slugfest” between rivals Spidey and The Human Torch in Amazing Spider-Man #8 (Jan. 1964) ran only six pages—and that’s counting when the rest of the F.F. got in on the action for the final two pages—but it was a real revelation to J. Cimino. Pencils by Kirby, inks by Steve Ditko, script by Stan Lee. Thanks to Barry Pearl for the scan. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
8.) FANTASTIC FOUR #57-60 (1966-1967): The Fantastic Four and The Silver Surfer vs. Dr. Doom Many would argue that Jack Kirby’s best work is in the pages of Fantastic Four comics, especially when the FF clashed with their arch-enemy and Marvel’s greatest villain, Dr. Doom. Doom’s thirst for ultimate power and to make the Fantastic Four (especially Reed Richards) grovel at his feet knew no bounds. In this 4-part epic clash of maniacal manipulation, Doom cons The Silver Surfer, steals
The Top 10 Jack Kirby Marvel Slugfests (1961-1970)
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7.) TALES OF SUSPENSE #80-81 (1966): Captain America vs. The Red Skull The rivalry between Captain America and The Red Skull started in the 1940s. By the mid-1960s, both characters returned to clash once again in front of a new generation of comic fans. The difference was that, this time, Jack Kirby’s art and dynamism had increased tenfold, and by 1966 he was at his creative peak. Throw in the power-lusting psychosis of The Red Skull wielding the unlimited power of the Cosmic Cube, and you have a tremendous obstacle for the Sentinel of Liberty to overcome. Was this battle one of the reasons why it was the Marvel Age of Comics? You betcha!
6.) FANTASTIC FOUR #39-40 (1965): The Fantastic Four and Daredevil vs. Dr. Doom As I stated before, when the Fantastic Four clashed with Dr. Doom, it was always an event. Readers knew Jack Kirby was going to be going all-out drawing Doom as menacing and imposing as ever, and the gadgets he was going to create to try to thwart the Fantastic Four with were always a visual delight. The last segment of this epic battle, in which the Thing makes a triumphant return and humbles Doom, is a masterpiece and one of the greatest moments of the Silver Age. It should be noted that, while Frank Giacola is listed as the inker in issue #39, it was Wally Wood who did the inking on the Daredevil figures and on his other identity, Matt Murdock. In the next issue, Vince Colletta took up the main inking duties over Kirby. Either way, this was a classic battle of a humbled Fantastic Four, who needed the assistance of Daredevil to overcome the menace of their greatest enemy—Dr. Doom!
5.) FANTASTIC FOUR #55 (1966): The Thing vs. The Silver Surfer Thing + Doom = Boom! While the entire F.F. and The Silver Surfer got into the act in this four-issue story arc, it was Dr. Doom’s freewheeling combat with the ever-lovin’, blue-eyed Thing (commencing in Fantastic Four #57, Dec. 1966) that brought out the unequivocal best in the King—that, and some of the Surfer scenes! Script by Lee; pencils by Kirby; inks by Joe Sinnott. Thanks to Barry Pearl for the scans. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
his Power Cosmic, and then shows the naïve herald of Galactus how that power should be wielded. The result is a surfboard-flying Dr. Doom showering the landscape with bolts of pure energy and bellowing to the heavens that the world is his to command. The action is fast-paced, and the Fantastic Four are, of course, up to the task to take Victor down.
With no threats to currently deal with, Ben Grimm arrives at his girlfriend Alicia Masters’ home. When he enters, he’s startled to find that The Silver Surfer is already there visiting her. Jealous and enraged about this, Ben attacks the Surfer and begins to wreck everything in the process (perfect start to a slugfest, IMHO).
Danger Cubed! The storyline in which The Red Skull first obtained the all-powerful Cosmic Cube (can we spell “Tesseract,” boys and girls?) was another of the timeless slugfests selected by longtime Marvel editor Roy Thomas to be reprinted in a gorgeous upcoming volume of Captain America’s greatest exploits published by the UK’s prestigious Folio Society. Will it shock anybody to learn there’ll be plenty of Kirby artwork in that tome? Cover of Tales of Suspense #80 (Aug. 1966) and a panel from #81 (Sept. ’66)—inks by Don Heck and Frank Giacoia, respectively. Script by Stan Lee. Thanks to JC. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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Kirby’s Greatest Hits—Literally!
The Baxter Building Needs More Comprehensive Insurance!
Surf’s Up!
Kirby’s cover for Fantastic Four #40 (July 1965) was inked by fabulous Frank Giacoia. Thanks to John C. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Benjamin J. Grimm faces the Power Cosmic on the Kirby/Sinnott cover of Fantastic Four #55 (Oct. 1966). Scan courtesy of John C. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Eventually, Reed Richards and Sue Storm enter the scene and stop Ben from finishing the fight. Reed has to talk some sense into Ben and convinces him to help Surfer out of the rubble and to apologize for his actions. Ben feels terrible for letting his insecurities get the best of him. But let’s be honest here: the Thing never catches a break. In this fight, he’s greatly overmatched by the Silver Surfer and yet still manages to beat him up pretty good. Then know-it-all Reed Richards comes along and says, “You don’t know how lucky you are, Ben! He only used a fraction of his power against you.” Jeez, Reed, give ol’ Benjy a break, he already apologized. Sheeesh! Man, how can you not love these comics?
4.) TALES TO ASTONISH #82 (1966): Iron Man vs. the Sub-Mariner What makes this fight so interesting is the legend behind the making of this comicbook. Artist Gene Colan drew the first of two parts of this epic fight in Tales of Suspense #79 & 80—and then only the first two pages in Tales to Astonish #82 before reportedly coming down with the flu. Stan Lee had to scramble to make the deadline and asked Jack Kirby to finish the art for the story (our pal “Rascally” Roy Thomas wound up writing the actual dialogue). The ten pages that Mr. Kirby drew in such a short amount of time are a true testament to the man’s unmatched skill. What readers got to witness that month was an absolute genius piece of work that
By Land Or By Sea… Gene Colan penciled the cover and the first two pages of this climax of a two-part Iron Man vs. Sub-Mariner brouhaha—but then Kirby stepped in for the final ten pages in Tales to Astonish #82 (Aug. 1966)! Inks by Dick Ayers; plot by Stan Lee (surely aided and abetted by JK); script by Roy Thomas. Scans courtesy of JC. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
The Top 10 Jack Kirby Marvel Slugfests (1961-1970)
had Namor and Iron Man fighting back and forth in a momentous manifesto of mayhem that was the pinnacle of super-hero action. I need say no more about this slugfest, as it was just another example of why Jack Kirby is the King of comicbooks.
3.) JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #125/ THOR #126 (1966): Thor vs. Hercules Another unforgettable rivalry between two super-heavyweights in the annals of Marvel history is Thor clashing with Hercules. Both of these immortals are considered the strongest and greatest warriors of their respective pantheons (Asgardian and Olympian). When they had first clashed in Journey into Mystery Annual #1, the results had been inconclusive. Here, in the rematch, things got a bit spicier because they weren’t fighting for honor and pride; they were fighting for the affections of Jane Foster! Both immortals usually had flocks of women eager to embrace their “godhood,” so this was uncharted territory for them. The result? The two Casanovas battle it out harder than ever to impress a girl as New York City suffers. Jane Foster eventually runs back to Thor after daddy Odin strips him of half his powers, which gave Hercules an unfair edge at the end of the fight. After the final beatdown, Thor shuns Jane’s affection and must return to Asgard to get his powers back. Talk about love and drama? This fight had that in spades!
2.) JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #112 (1965): Hulk vs. Thor Not since the Hulk squared off with the Thing had a fight been so highly demanded by readers. But, to be honest, everyone knew that the Hulk was eventually going to pummel the Thing, no matter how hard Ben fought back. This one was way different! Thor and the Hulk were the two physically strongest characters in the Marvel Universe, and fans demanded to know which one of them was the In Gods We Truss! stronger. Readers flooded the Marvel offices with letters, seeking an (Above:) 1966 was clearly a banner year for Kirby-drawn clashes! Thor answer. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby pay homage to the insanity in the #126 (March ’66) saw the greatest Thor vs. Hercules battle ever—and opening splash page, with Hulk and Thor fanboys arguing over who Thor lost! ’Course, neither he nor Herc knew till later that Loki’s trickery the real champion of the Marvel Universe is. Thor drops in and tells had robbed him of half his strength, though never of his innate nobility. Script by Stan Lee; inks by Vince Colletta. Scan courtesy of Barry Pearl. them the tale of the encounter he had with the Hulk back in Avengers [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.] #3, when they were both off-panel. The two “royal” powerhouses of Marvel engaged in a tremendous combat to see who was the stronger. Thor asked Odin to take away the enchantment of Mjolnir for five minutes so he could challenge the Hulk hand-to-hand. But as that happened, the Hulk never took his eyes off the hammer and wanted to destroy it. They went back and forth in an absolutely
“Who’s Stronger—Thor Or The Hulk?” Perhaps one of the most audacious of Stan and Jack’s ideas was to re-visit an earlier Thor-vs.-Hulk hullaballoo (in The Avengers #3) in Journey into Mystery #112, so readers could see the fight there strung out to its natural length. Even so, it still didn’t quite answer the above eternal question. (John Cimino thinks he knows the answers—but then, he’s prejudiced, as can be seen by his byline.) Inks by Chic Stone; script by Stan Lee. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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spectacular battle that shook the entire industry to its very core. Kirby’s pacing of the fight is nothing short of pure genius. The Hulk eventually throws Thor against the underground cavern wall, causing an avalanche to separate them. Soon, the Hulk digs himself out and would find Thor fighting the Sub-Mariner and the rest of this scrap continues back in Avengers #3. Later, we see the Hulk in the desert shouting out to the world that he will one day defeat the Thunder God. How could any comicbook reader not shout “Make Mine Marvel!” after reading this issue back in the day? This is super-heroic storytelling at its finest.
1.) FANTASTIC FOUR #25-26 (1964): Hulk vs. Thing (with the Fantastic Four and The Avengers) The Hulk slugging it out with the Thing goes by many names: “The Battle of the Behemoths,” “The Clash of the Titans,” and so on. But whatever you want to call it, it has to be considered “The Brawl That Started it All!” Even before the Hulk clashed with the Thing, comics fights had come a long way under Jack Kirby’s guidance. But, despite his innovations, nothing really special had happened yet. After the two brutes first fought in Fantastic Four #12 and showed a dynamic between them that captured the imagination of the fans, Kirby set the standard of what a true comic slugfest was supposed to be, while taking the meaning of “city-leveling action” to a whole new stratosphere, when he gave them a rematch in Fantastic Four #25 & 26. Needless to say, once “Hulk vs. Thing” entered into the Marvel-mythos, the comicbook world was never the same. Not only is this Jack Kirby’s greatest slugfest, it has to be considered the greatest slugfest in Marvel history. If that’s not enough praise, it can also be considered the greatest slugfest in the history of the medium! Can anyone prove me wrong?! After Fantastic Four #25 & 26 hit the newsstands, Jack Kirby was officially crowned “The King of Comics,” because these are the issues that set the standards for what a super-hero slugfest is in comics, cartoons, video games, movies, whatever! Never was a battle so grand, so epic, and so influential! It really was a total game-changer. The sense of wonderment that a reader felt taking this all in is something that can never be replicated. With Stan Lee’s brilliant dialogue meshed together with Kirby’s unparalleled storytelling, it represents heroic drama on a level very few comics have ever achieved. Stan Lee billed this as “The Battle of the Century” on the cover of issue #25, and who am I to argue with that?
Hail, Hail, The Gang’s All Here—And Fighting Like Hell! One of the first of Marvel’s infamous “continued stories” was the clash between the Fantastic Four (especially the Thing) and the Hulk in FF #25 (April 1964), whose cover is seen on the first page of John Cimino’s article… which segued the next month (#26) into an FF/ Hulk/Avengers free-for-all that set the pace for all Marvel battles to follow! Inking by Sol Brodsky. Thanks to JC. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
John Cimino is a Silver and Bronze Age comic, cartoon, and memorabilia expert who contributes articles to RetroFan, The Jack Kirby Collector, Back Issue, and now Alter Ego, for TwoMorrows Publishing. He runs The Roy Thomas Appreciation Boards on Facebook and likes to drag Roy and Dann Thomas away from their daily chores on the farm to a comic convention. Check out his blog at Hero-Envy.blogspot.com, contact him at johnstretch@live.com, or follow him on Instagram at megostretchhulk, because he likes the attention.
From Ben Grimm—To Grimlock! (Above right:) When Ye Editor asked John C. which photo of him to stick on the end of this piece, JC insisted it be this one, wherein the erstwhile Rascally One is considering slitting JC’s throat as he holds up two 2020 issues of Marvel’s Savage Sword of Conan written by RT—in the first of which appeared a suspiciously slimy character named “Simino.” Photo by Dann Thomas. (Left:) The cover of Songs of Immortality, a new 12” vinyl record that contains material by the 1990s hardcore band Grimlock, from a CD originally released in 1997. And yes, the front man at left (possessor of what one recent review called “one of the angriest voices in hardcore”) is indeed the same John Cimino who authored this Kirby-clash retrospective. [Album cover TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]
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JACK KIRBY 1976 Interview conducted by Peter Smith
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ublisher’s Note: The following is from a questionnaire concerning various aspects of Jack Kirby’s life and work, submitted by Peter Smith to the artist in November 1976, with Kirby’s answers from December 10, 1976. Peter was working on a dissertation about Kirby while attending Leeds Poly (a public university in Leeds, West Yorkshire, England) in 1977, and that full thesis will appear in an upcoming 2023 issue of The Jack Kirby Collector. Our thanks to Peter and Ian Blake for sending this in, and for their patience waiting for it to finally see print. PETER SMITH: Which artists would you say have had the greatest influence upon the development of your style of drawing? JACK KIRBY: Milton Caniff and Alex Raymond were veritable inspirations for style and motion. Hal Foster seemed more like a camera to me, but his storytelling was great and well worth studying. SMITH: After your work for the Max Fleischer Animation Studios, which newspaper strips did you work on, and for which newspapers? KIRBY: I worked for a small newspaper syndicate which serviced
700 weeklies Not So Near Term throughout the (Above:) Jack’s May 23, 1977, letter to Peter Smith, in States. It was response to receiving a copy of Peter’s doctoral thesis. called Lincoln It took Pete a full five months to submit it after getting Newspaper Jack’s answers. [Captain America TM & © Marvel Features Characters, Inc.] and offered (Left:) Circa 1937, an unfinished Kirby pencil panel for everything his Abdul Jones newspaper strip. from editorial cartoons to comic strips. I became involved in all this variety which included two good strips called Socko The Seadog and Abdul Jones. SMITH: What was your first comicbook sale? KIRBY: My first comicbook feature was called “Lightning And The Lone Rider”. If it sounds like a Western... it was. SMITH: When and how did you first meet Joe Simon?
Holiday Horror? From December 25, 1937, came the Hal Foster inspiration for Jack Kirby’s Demon. [Prince Valiant TM & © King Features Syndicate; Demon TM & © DC Comic.]
KIRBY: I met Joe Simon when he was an editor at Fox Features, one of the very early ventures in comics publishing. SMITH: It is often written that your own methods of storytelling have been influenced by the narrative techniques of the cinema. Are there any films or filmmakers which form a conscious inspiration for your work?
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The First Kirby Comic? (Left:) Kirby produced The Romance of Money for Lincoln News in 1937. Some consider this give-away used by banks to be Kirby’s first comicbook work, but at 5” x 6.5” and only 24 pages long (including the covers), that’s perhaps a bit of a stretch. (Below:) 1930s gangster movies were a big influence on Jack, and they even made their way into this 1969 Fantastic Four #91 story, wherein the Thing is kidnapped by Skrulls who’ve taken on the guise of classic Earth mobsters and are conducting an outer space competition he’s forced to compete in. The January 12, 1968, episode of Star Trek television show titled “A Piece of the Action” was the obvious inspiration for the multi-issue story that ran from FF #91-93. Pencil art courtesy The Jack Kirby Collector. (Next two pages:) Even Rascally Roy Thomas got into the act, helping resurrect the basic idea for the 1979 Fantastic Four animated series episode “The Olympics of Space”, where a gangster-less alien race snatches the Thing to be their combat champion. Both Stan and Roy wrote these animation scripts Marvel-style. Kirby storyboards also courtesy The Jack Kirby Collector. [Fantastic Four TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc..]
find the Marvel Group to be most compatible with your particular creative outlook? KIRBY: I’ve been fighting for my own slot in comics for many years. I’m still at it and hope to maintain it. Marvel treats me just fine and works with me. It’s a good basis for turning out good books.
KIRBY: The movies probably influenced everyone of my generation. If you didn’t emerge from the theatre as Jimmy Cagney, you were certainly Humphrey Bogart. However, the ’30s were chock-full of imaginative filmmaking and continuous innovation in story-telling. Visual impact is strong. It lingers in the mind. It is there to draw upon when needed. SMITH: During your long career in comics, which strip do you consider your finest, and why? KIRBY: I work on every feature as if it were my finest. It is impossible to come up with a Captain America or a Silver Surfer without the initial drive to produce them. SMITH: Who are your own favourite comicbook artists? KIRBY: My favourite artists are the fellows I compete with. SMITH: Which are your favourite comicbook titles, and why? KIRBY: My favourite titles are the ones that sell. I am salesoriented in order to remain in business. SMITH: What were your reasons for your move to National Comics in 1970, and your subsequent return to Marvel this year? Do you
SMITH: In my opinion, your Fourth World Saga represents the peak of artistic achievement in your work, both in its complex and imaginative scriptwork and in its powerful graphic realisation. However, it seems that the very complexity of the plot may have been beyond the grasp of the average reader, leading to the discontinuation of the series. Do you find this limitation upon your work inhibiting? KIRBY: Doing anything like the Fourth World Saga in a limited medium is always a risky affair. However, at DC, I found myself with the opportunity of trying something “deep” and “heavy.” It was a chance to add some meat to the standard fantasy fare. I utilized four books to create the first comic novel. And despite the fact that time ran out on me before I could shape its climax, the response to this attempt was not only encouraging, but overwhelmingly gratifying. In short, the New Gods would have survived, had it been mediocre. Its success was intolerable to an organization geared to selling Superman.
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script come first, or the visuals, or do they evolve simultaneously? KIRBY: In deference to a pressing schedule, my work evolves simultaneously. While I’m working on a book, the stories for the next two have already been worked out. SMITH: Do you feel at all restricted when producing artwork by the technical limitations imposed by the method of reproduction involved in the printing of comicbooks? KIRBY: The comic page is too small to hold my personal view of comics. I feel that the comic illustration is tremendously strong in visual effect and should be rendered in six foot panels. SMITH: Do you work in direct collaboration with the inkers and colourers of your stories, or are these jobs done separately? KIRBY: The story and art are done by myself. The inker provides a service by darkening my lines and black areas to facilitate proper reproduction. The colouring is done at the publishing house by competent people who take that burden from my mind. At any rate, if I personally desire a special effect in colour, I will do it myself. SMITH: Have you ever produced work for any other field of illustration outside comics?
Pleading The Fourth (Above:) Named “Robot Defender” either by Jack, or by fans who first saw this piece exhibited at his convention apperances, this character was one of many presentation pieces Kirby created in the mid-1960s, while biding his time waiting for a better offer than Marvel’s publisher Martin Goodman would make. When DC Comics came a-callin’, this dude could well have ended up in Jack’s New Gods series, had it continued a year or two longer. [Robot Defender TM & © the Jack Kirby Estate.]
SMITH: The concept of alien superbeings appearing on Earth in the guise of Ancient Gods forms a central theme throughout your work. What is it about this theme which you find so appealing? Do you see the comicbook tradition as the popular mythology of the present age? Will your forthcoming strip 2001: A Space Odyssey be an extension of the “Gods on Earth” theme? KIRBY: I believe that all of life is riddled with cosmic questions. We shall live with them until we die. Reality will toss us a grain of truth here and there and save the rest of it for our progeny to chew on. However, we’re all fascinated by the surrounding mysteries and enrich our existence with speculation, parable, and the general grandeur of the subject. 2001 is selling well, because it contains elements of mythology. SMITH: How do you go about the actual creation of a story, and does the
Six Feet Over (Right:) The art exhibit “Comic Book Apocalypse: The Graphic World of Jack Kirby”) ran at California State University, Northridge, from August 24–October 10, 2015. Coordinator Charles Hatfield assembled a massive exhibit of Kirby originals and oversize graphics, and featured speakers (such as Mark Evanier, shown here) discussing Kirby’s importance in the field. [Silver Surfer TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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enough to produce any changes. SMITH: Finally, do you see your role as comicbook artist to be primarily that of an entertainer or a moralist? And what would you define as the central motivating force behind your enormous creative output? KIRBY: Your question is both valid and perceptive. We’re basically all entertainers. The size of our audience depends on our personal drive to gain attention. In fact, the most spectacular performances in history generated the kind of popularity that leaves large holes in continents. I trust you and I never merit that kind of grand finale.
Kirby Does Kubrick (Above:) Rather than use collage as he’d sometimes do in his 1960s and early 1970s work, Jack actually drew the pivotal special effects scene in his 1976 adaptation of 2001: A Space Odyssey. [Captain America, Thor, & Cyclops TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
KIRBY: I’ve done a bit of that throughout the years. They involve pulp and slick paper mags, newspaper panels and illustrations for toy packages. SMITH: Does your move from New York to Los Angeles signify a new direction in your work? KIRBY: California provides a more tranquil atmosphere. Thought, here, inspires many things... mostly awareness. SMITH: The West Coast has over the past decade become the centre of an alternative source of comicbook art from the hitherto unchallenged dominance of the New York companies. Do you see the function of “Bullpen West” in this light? KIRBY: Bullpen West can prove to be very fruitful. I’ve found an abundance of fine talent here, including Mike Royer, a truly fine inker. The challenge to the East is self-evident, but not potent
Who’s Bigger Than Jack? (Right:) The 1976 Mattel toy line “Big Jim’s P.A.C.K.” launched with advertising art and packaging illustrations by Kirby. Fellow Marvel bullpenner Big John Buscema also handled some of the illustration chores for the line. [© Mattel.]
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Discovering Kirby in the ’60s! by Shane Foley
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began reading Marvel comics sometime in 1967 (I was about 10) and was quickly hooked. I didn’t immediately understand how Kirby was such a creative cornerstone to the line, because most artists were doing their best to imitate Kirby’s dynamism in their art. But clearly he was best. I still remember being stunned—skeptical even— that the man who drew Fantastic Four #62 (one of my all time favourite Kirby books) was the same man who, about five years earlier, had drawn Fantastic Four #3 (which I saw in a reprint)! But there it was!
I remember collecting reprints of FF #3, 9, 10, 15, 18, 23, 28 and so on, and being astounded by the development in the art... the evolution and reinvention (to quote Tim Sale’s insightful comment from the Jack Kirby: Storyteller documentary) was astonishing! By the mid ’60s, Kirby was at his greatest! He had slowed his output to a mere 50 pages per month (!)— no longer doing layouts on other strips and so many covers—and the effect was explosive. Issue after issue, month after month, unbelievable creative genius was on virtually every page. And it wasn’t only in his dramatic action storytelling, or his amazingly creative designs for costumes and machines and cities that boggled the mind… it was even in the minutiae. It was there in lesser elements where he needn’t have bothered. But bother he did—and it’s mind-blowing! It was then—and it is now.
Thor #137 Take Thor #137 (Feb. 1967, one of the first Kirby books I ever owned). After seeing all those wonderful armour designs, after witnessing the dramatic-looking and beautiful Sif being introduced, after the power and wonder of the full page drawing of Ulik, and the battle with Thor that followed, suddenly, there are the trolls ready for invasion. “Throw open the doors of... the invasion shaft!” comes the order from the King. And there, Kirby has drawn, for one panel only, a most unique and powerful, out-of-left-field design for that switch to be thrown (page 15, panel 2). He could have just drawn a lever being pulled— but no. He drew something more ‘out there’ than that! Then on the next page, the creative fountain explodes again with the trolls’ flying invasion machines, one with those glorious tentacles writhing beneath. What a brilliant panel. What a brilliant issue! But it’s not over. The five “Tales of Asgard” pages that follow
Confounding Colletta Though fans at the time often praised the inking of Vince Colletta over Kirby on Thor (it gave the strip an almost Prince Valiant-like weathered look), only much later did readers learn the extent to which Vinnie omitted or blackened out details in Kirby’s penciling. That giant all-black area in the top panel from #137 surely didn’t lack Kirby Krackle when Jack drew it. [Thor TM & ©Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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are equally creative, with a further two new and equally evocative character designs (Mogul and the jinni) behind a spectacular splash page. Did Kirby ever get tired? Yet the well spring continued in the next issue, and the next and the next. (Though the flying machine with the tentacles was never seen again.)
Fantastic Four #62 At the same time, the Fantastic Four was at its finest as well. I previously mentioned #62 (May 1967). A dramatic story—incredibly well illustrated? Sure (even if it did repeat a scenario used less than a year earlier). But the incidental detail is also stunning. Look at that communicator on page 1—a super sci-fi, gloriously balanced (and never repeated) design. Page 3—suddenly, there’s Lockjaw licking his lips. How unnecessary to the story (after all, it could have been a bit more wonderful Kirby-tech to act as the frame for
Johnny and Crystal!)—but what character-filled perfection.
Saved By Sinnott Comparatively, look at the level of detail of these Joe Sinnott inks in Fantastic Four #62. Although drawn at nearly the same time, Joe’s masterful work lets these FF panels far outshine the Colletta-inked Thor work on the previous page—and a thorough examination of pencil stats confirms that, while Colletta routinely omitted details, Sinnott was consisently faithful to what Kirby put down on his pages. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Page 6—Kirby draws a terrifically original alien craft where he didn’t have to, and which could have been the design for a main ship for a whole series by itself. This is followed on page 7 (shown on next page, top) by its equally wonderful control panel, followed by a panel where even the craft’s extending arm is intricately and uniquely designed by Kirby.
Discovering Kirby in the ’60s!
Page 12, panel 2 (right)—beneath that powerful pose for Triton, there’s dynamic, writhing, totally unrealistic—but extremely effective—shadowing, cast over great design work on that segment of the sub. Page 14 (below)—only Kirby can draw shattering glass like that! Page 16 (bottom right)—a brilliant, unearthly Sub-Space creature Kirby didn’t have to draw. But he did. And it goes on and on. All this in one 20-page issue. He drew 30 other pages that month too. Then 50 more the next. And the next. (Until soon, he upped it to 60 pages!) I don’t think we readers at the time realised just how good we had it. Or that it would ever end. I think Arlen Schumer is exactly right when he speaks of Kirby being an American artistic creative genius—full stop. Not just in comics—in all art! For comic artists, this man’s output is totally inspiring on the one hand, and totally intimidating on the other. What can we say? Except—thank you, Jack!
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“The Marvel Age Of Comics Started On September 30, 1972!” “W by Robert Menzies
hat on Earth are you on about?” you’re thinking. “Everyone knows ‘The Marvel Age of Comics’ started with The Fantastic Four #1, which was on the stands in New York City on August 8, 1961, and soon elsewhere across the States!” Well, we’re both right. It’s a question of geography. And age. In 1967 Marvel had licensed out their characters to British publisher Odhams, who released the comics Wham!, Smash!, Pow!, Terrific, and Fantastic, the first issue of the latter coming out the day my parents married. By the end of the decade, all were gone. Jump
forward a few years. On the last Saturday of September 1972, the youth of Britain saw a new comic on newsagents’ shelves— The Mighty World of Marvel. Inside The Mighty World of Marvel (MWOM) #1, Marvel returned to Ground Zero with Fantastic Four #1, adding the first appearances of Hulk and Spider-Man. Even using only one colour, and dividing American editions into installments, this was a blockbuster package. One suspects that, of those readers who were lucky enough to pick up issue #1, the majority came back for the second. A new generation of True Believers had been born and were facing front. Due to the traditional weekly schedule of British comics, and the telescoped, accelerated continuity that had the Fab Four, Greenskin, and Spidey debut on the same day, growing up a Marvel fan in the 1970s was like drinking from a fire hose. In those early months, no artist’s work appeared more often than Jack Kirby’s, and for years his art graced the British titles as they reprinted his runs on the World’s Greatest Comic Magazine as well as Hulk, Ant-Man, Thor, The Avengers, Captain America, Nick Fury, and what seemed like a thousand other characters— despite the fact that, from sometime in 1970 through 1975, Kirby was under contract to DC Comics and did no new work
“Age” Is Just A Number! In the United States, the Stan Lee-christened “Marvel Age of Comics” began with The Fantastic Four #1 (Nov. 1961), behind a Jack Kirby/George Klein cover seen above, even though the name “Marvel” wouldn’t appear on comics covers again till ’63… But, in Great Britain/the UK, that “Age” can be said to be have been birthed when The Mighty World of Marvel #1 (dated Oct. 7, 1972) went on sale—with the John Buscema-penciled (though certainly Jack Kirbyinspired) cover glimpsed at left. Thanks to Robert Menzies for all art spots printed with his article, unless otherwise noted. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.] Incidentally, the Stan Lee side of the “Marvel UK” launch and its aftermath were covered by Robert M. back in Alter Ego #15; the two pieces can be considered bookends.
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Pencils by Kirby; while Marvel Database has no inker credit, the GCD identifies Frank Giacoia as the inker. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Captain Britain #16 (January 26, 1977) Am I Blue? The Odhams company that began reprinting Marvel stories in weekly instalments circa 1967 not only eliminated all mentions of the word “Marvel” on its covers, but also worked in a couple of coloring errors all its own. Perhaps it’s just as well that the interiors were black-&-white !? This is the cover of Terrific #20 (Aug. 26, 1967). [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
for Marvel. Throughout the ’70s, nonetheless, Jack’s 1960s art was endlessly recycled for pin-ups, letters-page art, annuals, even activities and games, a tiny percentage of which will appear in this edition of A/E. This trend continued even into the 1980s, with reprints of the reprints, and reprints of the reprinted reprints. One of these, I confess, has weighty sentimental value for me, as in 1983 my family were in the Highlands visiting our clan castle for the first (and only) time, and 15-year-old me was delighted to find a lonely British reprint of The X-Men #4 in a cupboard-sized village shop. So, you see, for my generation, growing up in Britain—or bonny Scotland, in my particular case—the Marvel Age was a 1970s phenomenon, with Jack Kirby the vanguard artist. I unfortunately never had the opportunity to say this to the man in real life, but thanks, Jack. From me and all the other British fans still in awe of your genius.
Jack Kirby UK Credits Assembled by Robert Menzies, 2020 Avengers Annual 1975 (UK), contents page
Art taken from cover to Tales of Suspense #86 (February 1967).
Recycled pin-up taking art from cover of Captain America #112 (April 1969). Kirby & Giacoia art. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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Captain Britain #19 (February 16, 1977) Fantastic Four pin-up. I can’t seem to find the original U.S. source for this. However, there is a re-inked and re-coloured version of this by J.A. Fludd on the Kirby Museum site called “Four & Foes” and something posted by Josh Morrows on the Comics Horizon website from July of last year. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
The Mighty World of Marvel #6, Vol.7 (September 19, 2018) Splash page (page 6) from Fantastic Four #72 (March 1967). Kirby & Sinnott. Colour art probably recycled from the variant cover for Silver Surfer #14 (Kirby 100 Variant) from 2017. (Incidentally, Philippe Queveau on the comicartfans. com website owns the original art.) [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Titans Annual 1978, contents page Thing waving a fist at Galactus in the first panel from page 3 of Fantastic Four #75 (June 1968). For reasons unknown, they have removed Johnny Storm and Reed Richards, who in the original art are standing behind Ben on his left and right. Kirby & Sinnott. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Marvel Comic Album (pictured at left) Not sure about the main art’s source—it’s very similar to the pose from the cover to The Mighty Thor #177 (June 1970), although it’s a different piece—but the original art was used for the Kirby variant cover to Generations: The Unworthy Thor & The Mighty Thor #1 (2017), with new colours by Paul Mounts. Captain America is closely modelled on the pose from page 5, panel 3 of Captain America #108 (December 1968) by Kirby & Syd Shores. The Iron Man pose looks very like a Gene Colan swipe to me. Not sure about Ol’ Greenskin; may be a Marie Severin or (more likely) Herb Trimpe swipe. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Jack Kirby UK Credits
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“Among Us Wreckers Dwell!” splash page taken from Tales of Suspense #64 (April 1965). Art by Kirby & Giacoia (the latter pseudonymously as “Frank Ray”). [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
“Captain America, Living Legend of World War II” Leaping Cap and Bucky excerpted from the cover of Tales of Suspense #65 (May 1965). Kirby pencils, no inker listed in Marvel Database but GCD credits Chic Stone. Image at left of Steve Rogers and Cap from cover of Tales of Suspense #63 (March 1965). Kirby & Giacoia. Top right image from cover of Tales of Suspense #74 (February 1966). Kirby pencils. Sol Brodsky credited as inker on GCD. [All art on this page TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
“‘4’ Power” (Fantastic Four Annual 1970, UK) This page, which is the quartered double-page spread with awful puns, has recycled the four separate battle images of the team fighting the Mad Thinker’s android on the cover of Fantastic Four #71 (February 1968). Cover by Kirby & Joe Sinnott. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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“Battle of Wits” (Fantastic Four Annual 1970, UK) The negative image of Doctor Doom (bottom right) has been lifted from the opening splash page from Fantastic Four #58 (January 1967). Art by Kirby & Sinnott—but note the mislabelling of Johnny Storm as “Johnny Richards.” [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
“Mission Impossible” (Fantastic Four Annual 1970, UK) The central art with Blastaar is taken from the page 8 splash from Fantastic Four #63 (June 1967). The small image of him running, located below his right leg, is panel 2 from page 12 of the same comic. Kirby & Sinnott art. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.] Mr Fantastic, Invisible Girl, and the Thing all from the cover of Fantastic Four #59 (February 1967). Kirby & Sinnott art. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Robert Menzies in a COVID mask, to “commemorate” the fact that he wrote this article in 2020… though, so far, 2021 hasn’t looked all that different, has it?
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Addendum:
Jack And The Angel by John McShane (as told to Robert Menzies) TRANSCRIBER’S INTRODUCTION: On the Scottish comic scene, no one has met or worked with more comic creators than John McShane. Former co-owner of the “aka comic shop” in Glasgow—of which I was a dedicated visitor—he has met many of the legends of comics and encouraged a generation of Scottish creators like Frank Quietly (Vincent Diegan), Grant Morrison, and Mark Millar. He has even popped up in print as a character in Captain Britain, Vol. 2, #4 (Feb. 1986), story and art by Alan Davis!
T
he story behind my first encounter with Jack [Kirby] really begins at a London convention in 1980. The big American guest for me that year was Archie Goodwin, but I was so awed by this great writer and editor, and he was so shy, that it was a little awkward when we met. Flash forward to San Diego Comic-Con 1989, and I’m there representing Trident Comics. I was in a private bar before the public arrived, possibly on the Thursday. It was quite empty, but I spotted Archie. He recognised me and this time we had a much better blether [Scots for “chat”]. Then we noticed this guy who was there by himself. We didn’t know him but we invited him to join us anyway. He told us his name was Glen Kolleda, and during the conversation he mentioned his project with Jack, a small statue based on one of Jack’s prints with a Biblical theme called “Jacob and the Angel.” The next day I met up with Igor Goldkind, Fleetway’s representative for 2000 AD, Crisis, and Revolver, and we went for a drink. When I was there I saw Glen come up with a small gentleman beside him and a slightly taller woman. I said, “Excuse me, Igor!” and shot away faster than Barry Allen! I “innocently” [McShane winks] said, “Hello, Glen!” and Glen said, “Oh, hello, John! Have you met Jack?” [McShane laughs loudly.] Jack’s wife, Roz, looked at me slightly suspiciously, but Jack was absolutely lovely. We talked about the fact we hadn’t had the privilege of seeing him at a convention in Britain, and I know you’ve talked, Robert, about how various circumstances had prevented him from coming [see “JK in the UK” in The Jack Kirby Collector #73]. He said
that he had never been in Scotland, only in England. His ship had docked in Liverpool for training before he went into combat. I’ve seen his war sketches from foxholes: if anyone should be doing war comics, it’s Jack. I had business cards with me, but Jack always deferred everything to Roz, who was very solicitous of him, and she took my card. She made sure no one was exploiting him. Jack was so open and we spoke for some time. I certainly never expected to meet Jack Kirby in a random bar in San Diego. Later, when I saw Glen’s little statue—probably at Jack’s table, although Glen may have had a separate table; I don’t recall exactly after all this time—I thought it was lovely and said to myself, “I’m buying one of them!” I also picked up a pre-signed copy of the print that the statue is based on. I still have both. After that, I never saw much of Jack privately, even though I attended the next two San Diego Cons in August 1990 and July 1991, both of which had Jack as a guest. He was always surrounded by people. People were always at Jack’s table asking him questions, and it was nice just to stand there and listen to the King. That’s why I took those two photos, as a memento. I turned the flash off for the photos as I didn’t want to bother him. I didn’t want to
John McShane with the small statue carved by Glen Kolleda based on a Biblically-themed Kirby print, “Jacob and the Angel”—which is seen below, retrieved by layout guru Chris Day from the Internet, is the original Kirby art! [© Estate of Jack Kirby.]
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Beast Rider Glenn Kolleda did actually produce a second statue, “The Beast Rider,” based on Kirby’s drawing shown here—but with a more limited run than the 2500 quantity of “Jacob and the Angel.” [Beast Rider TM & © Jack Kirby Estate.]
flash in his face or be obtrusive, because he was such a lovely, lovely man. I did attend a great panel Jack did with Will Eisner, whom I’d known for a while. I think that was 1990. Jack got quite sentimental about Will, calling him the best boss he ever had. It was very moving. During the con Will and I planned to go for a drink and he said, “Hang on a minute. Jack will be here and we can go for a coffee or something.” I said that was fine. But Jack was surrounded by about fifty people and was moving at a rate of centimetres. Time ran out. Forty-five minutes later and Jack hadn’t managed to get to the square, so we had to go our separate ways, but it was nice to be invited.
Jack “King” Kirby in one of the photos taken by John McShane at the 1989 San Diego Comic-Con—and, to finish off with some “UK content,” the cover of The Titans Pocket Book #4 (1980), with reprinted pencils by Kirby. [Cover TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
Jack wasn’t looking poorly the first time I saw him, but, sadly, he did decline after that and was looking a bit frail. Roz was very solicitous and tried to follow him around, but when you’re surrounded by fifty people that isn’t easy. If Will Eisner can’t get a cup of coffee with you, things are a bit tight! [laughs]
I was very privileged to have met Jack. If it hadn’t been for me knowing Archie, and us inviting Glen Kolleda over, I would still have met Jack but I wouldn’t have had that lovely conversation.
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From Jasper Sitwell To Houseroy—And Back Again! Or, JACK KIRBY & Me, 1947-2021! A Personal Appreciation by Roy Thomas
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mong a certain small (and clinically insane) coterie of otherwise perhaps laudable Jack Kirby fans, I seem to have the reputation—unsought, unappreciated, and totally undeserved—of being a Kirby-hater. Or at least (and it’s pretty much the same thing to the above folks) of being a guy who believes that writer/editor Stan Lee contributed something to his and Kirby’s decade-plus association besides “just” putting precise words in the mouths of Kirbyanimated characters. Well, on the last count, I’ll admit—I’m guilty as charged. But this article is about my relationship, both as a comicbook fan since 1947, and since 1965 as a fellow pro, to Jack “King” Kirby... so let’s concentrate on that aspect of things, shall we?
“Simon&Kirby” I’m not sure, frankly, exactly how old I was—or where and how it happened—that I became aware of Jack Kirby. Joe Kubert’s name adorned most of the latter-1940s “Hawkman” stories in which I reveled—Gardner Fox’s, E.E. Hibbard’s, Jerry Siegel’s, Joe Shuster’s, and Bob Kane’s names, among a number of others, were likewise on tales they either wrote or drew or had ghosted for them. Actually, I didn’t become aware of Jack Kirby in the 1940s at all—not really. What forced itself upon my consciousness, probably in late 1947 when I was just turning seven, was the team I knew as “Joe Simon and Jack Kirby”—virtually as one entity, “Simon&Kirby.” Like most people, young or old, who weren’t professionals in the comicbook field, I had no idea of who did what when I saw those two names on a “Stuntman” splash page—probably not in Stuntman #1 in early ’46, more likely when the origin story was
The Kirby Trilogy? (Left:) Roy Thomas, on right, and his manager/pal John Cimino attacked by—or are they attacking?—a huge Galactus display at the TerrifiCon held at the Mohegan Sun Casino, NY, on Aug. 19, 2017… which is about as close as RT ever came to having a personal photo taken with Jack Kirby! Photo courtesy of JC. (Above:) Jack Kirby himself, with a peaceable pipe.
reprinted in Black Cat Comics #9 (Jan. 1948), in late ’47. Of course, I suppose I could’ve seen Stuntman #1… I was certainly buying comics by spring of 1946, at age five. During that period, I simply had to learn to read before I started school in fall of ’46 (first grade—no kindergarten for this kid, or most kids I knew, back in the mid-’40s)… because I just had to know what those gaudily clad characters were saying, which would help explain what they were doing. I do remember being very confused by the triple-identity aspect of “Stuntman,” since at the time I didn’t really know anything about real stuntmen and their relationship to the equally mysterious movie industry that was the backdrop of the series. Mostly, I think I simply rejoiced in the thrill of the drawings… first of the circus acrobats (whose colorful costumes were the general inspiration that formed the basis of not only Stuntman’s costume but of those of Superman, Batman, and the rest as well)… and of the super-hero outfit that the aerialist mutated his carnival gear into. I’m pretty sure I devoured other “Stuntman” reprints when they popped up—but I probably missed some. All I really knew over the next few years after 1947 was that, anytime I saw those magic names “Simon and Kirby” on a comics story, it meant that the artwork would be “good”—by which I meant exciting, lively, dynamic. Sometimes other people drew most or all of those stories, and as I got older I could tell that Simon and Kirby had some unattributed helpers—and sometimes I believe I recognized the S&K style on unsigned stories. In fact, one of my favorites of “their” 1940s stories, a “Boom Boom Brannigan” yarn in Prize Comics wherein an imitation (and alien) costumed Superman type who called himself “Superior Male” came to Earth and got knocked out
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Why Did You Pull A Stunt Like That? Actually, this splash page from Harvey Comics’ Stuntman #1 (April-May 1946) was probably not the source of barely-five-years-old Roy’s first exposure to the “Joe Simon and Jack Kirby” byline. It’s more likely to have been when this origin story was reprinted in Black Cat Comics #9 (Jan. 1948), on sale just before he turned seven. [TM & © Estates of Joe Simon & Jack Kirby.]
by the titular four-color prizefighter, only looked to my inexpert eyes like a “Simon and Kirby” job—it was, in actuality, all Joe Simon. But I loved it just the same. Matter of fact, I may have been a closet Simon and Kirby fan even before I saw that first “Stuntman” story. When the pair briefly came back post-WWII to DC Comics, even though much of that work was unsigned, I recognized their “look” on the “Newsboy Legion” (co-starring the Guardian, whom I liked better than the boys themselves) in a few issues of Star Spangled Comics. And, when I was given a few “old” comics by relatives, I recall seeing a house ad for Adventure Comics #93 (Aug.-Sept. 1944), with a very much S&K Sandman and Sandy sitting atop some sort of muzzled dragon on a cover titled “Sleep for Sale”—though I never, till this day, have read the story inside, which in any case wasn’t by Simon and Kirby. For the next decade, I continued to at least glance at anything I saw on the newsstands that either claimed to be (or simply looked like) the work of Simon & Kirby. Some of it was “true crime” or mild horror—two genres I generally eschewed as not interesting me, except for the artwork, which was rarely reason enough in and of itself for me to part with one of my too-scarce dimes. The Simon & Kirby romance comics, if I even noticed them, I wouldn’t have touched with a ten-cent pole. Ditto the war comics. Just as was the case with the many EC horror or crime or war comics I perused briefly before putting them back on the shelf, I didn’t buy them.
I probably purchased one or two science-fiction entries by S&K, though. SF I liked. And I bought at least one or two issues of Boys’ Ranch, too. Nice stuff, even though it wasn’t super-heroes. At least Westerns weren’t horror or “true crime”! And then there was Harvey Comics’ Captain 3-D #1-andonly! When I saw that hero leaping at me from the stands, I had to have it—even if it cost a quarter instead of the usual dime and the insides were only in approximations of black-&-white after you donned those red-and-green “glasses.” Beautiful stuff, and a great origin—even if the good Captain’s outfit was a little silly with those striped pants and the little knob on the top of his helmet— and even though I wished he had some real super-powers. What I was coming to realize about the Simon & Kirby heroes was that, while they might be idealized athletes in terms of conception, they were rarely much more than Batman in a brighter costume. (I’d have felt the same way about their early Captain America, but of course I didn’t see any of their work on him until I was in my early twenties.) Then came—Fighting American! I was already stoked by the return of The Human Torch, Sub-Mariner, and Captain America at “Atlas”—in Cap’s case, mostly because of the artwork of John Romita, who I recognized even at age 13 had combined Simon-&-Kirby dynamics with the look of Milt Caniff’s Terry and the Pirates and Steve Canyon. But
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3-D Or Not 3-D, That Is The Question! (Right:) No “Simon and Kirby” signature on this de facto one-shot from December 1953, but there was no mistaking these patented Kirby poses and dynamics in Captain 3-D #1. And if you’ve still got your 3-D specs left lying around from Alter Ego #115 & 126, you’ll get a clearer look at Cap’s encounter with Iron Hat McGinty and his blockbustin’ bulldozer! From RT’s own collection. (He’s got two copies!) [TM & © Estates of Joe Simon & Jack Kirby.]
Harvey’s (and S&K’s) Fighting American was even more dynamic, even if the hero was clearly “only” a copy of Captain America. I had no notion, of course, that Simon & Kirby were the guys who had created Cap around the time I was born, and that they were out to “show them [‘Atlas’] how it’s done,” to employ Joe’s phrasing. Fighting American—even though he, too, was mostly just an athlete in a stars-and-stripes costume—was one of the greatest visual concepts to come out of comicbooks in the mid-1950s. I loved his origin—in which a weakling’s mind is transferred into the revitalized body of his murdered, physically perfect big brother. I saw, even then, the parallels with Cap’s origin as briefly recounted by Romita in Young Men #24—even if I didn’t know the real
connection between the two sentinels of liberty. Every couple of months, I looked forward to the new issue of Fighting American as much as I did the latest Torch/Namor/Cap offering from the “Atlas” guys. But when the latter soon vanished from the newsstands, I suppose I wasn’t too surprised that the even more dramatic Fighting American swiftly followed them into oblivion. (I bought an issue or two of Harvey’s Thrills of Tomorrow during that period, too, and even then realized that it was made up of reprinted [actually, they were re-reprinted] “Stuntman” stories—and that “Stuntman” was far and away superior artwise to most of the rest of the stuff on the shelves. But it didn’t last long, either.)
Joe Simon seated at a New York City comics convention a decade or so back, flanked by Roy (on our right) and publisher J. David Spurlock. Joe passed away in 2011, at age 98… and he was mentally spry and feisty right up to the end!
Clearly, I soon began to realize, most of the rest of the comics-buying public—i.e., other kids—did not share my refined tastes. After that, Simon and Kirby mostly vanished from
Simon & Kirby Go Down Fighting! (Left:) For some reason, there was no byline up front in Fighting American #1 (April 1954)—but by #2 (June ’54), pictured here, and through #5 of its original 7-issue run, a big “Produced by Simon & Kirby” box appeared on the first splash page in each issue. Then, in #6 & 7, it was back to zero credits. The Simon & Kirby byline, alas, was losing its considerable once-luster. Thanks to Barry Pearl & Dave Armstrong. [TM & © Estates of Joe Simon & Jack Kirby.]
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my consciousness… and indeed, from nearly everybody’s, since the team broke up soon afterward, a victim of changing times. One of the last things I remember by them was Bullseye, a Western hero I loved. (What? You forgot that I’ve said I got the idea for Iron Fist’s dragon chest-brand from that S&K hero?)
Kirby, Period Still, when “Challengers of the Unknown” debuted a year or so later in Showcase #6 (Jan.-Feb. 1957), I recognized that “Simon & Kirby look,” despite the lack of any credits on the stories. Little did I suspect that this was Jack working minus Joe (albeit with a concept the pair had reportedly co-created earlier). I followed “Challengers” for as long as Kirby was drawing it; as soon as he checked out, so did I. I remember admiring his handful of “Green Arrow” art jobs, too, even if they were too short to really sink your teeth into. Why weren’t Simon & Kirby doing whole magazines like Challengers of the Unknown any longer? And then—something weird happened. I began to notice Kirby’s work—sometimes signed, sometimes not—in the “Atlas” line (even if, by then, the Atlas seal had disappeared from that company’s covers; but what else was I going to call it, unless it was “Marvel,” the name I’d known it by as a kid in the late 1940s?). This “Atlas” art was cruder, more rushed-looking than the old S&K stuff, but at least now I was finally beginning to realize that the team art I’d loved had mostly been the stylings of Kirby. (Made me wonder what that guy Simon had done… and was doing, now that he and Kirby had clearly parted ways.) Kirby was mostly drawing these tales of King Kong- or even Godzilla-sized monsters with ludicrous names and equally ridiculous stories… over-sized critters who were created, wreaked havoc, and were defeated all in stories that were never over about a dozen pages long and often quite shorter. I admired the artwork to a certain extent, especially the design of the monsters, but I never spent a dime on a single one of those comics. I’d occasionally page through one, but then I’d put it back on the shelf and pick up the latest Flash or Green Lantern—
now, Joe Simon was the comics’ editor—and he’d hired his talented ex-partner as artist. Jack, alas, was gone after an issue or two… and Joe, not long afterward… but they’d done enough superb spadework that The Fly limped on for several years in lesser hands. Meanwhile, Kirby seemed to be ever more confined to the pages of the once-Marvel/once-Atlas line, drawing those cockamamie monster mish-mashes. I mostly consigned him, I suppose, to my memories of his past glories.
Jack “King” Kirby And then, one day at the turn of August 1961, I walked into the Metro News store in Cape Girardeau, Missouri, where I was just graduating from college—and here were copies of this comic called The Fantastic Four #1 staring back at me. It looked like one of the “Atlas” monster comics, yet it had a logo that read like a super-hero group, as if it were inspired by, oh, let’s say, DC’s Justice League of America. Where the JLA had fought a giant starfish on their very first cover, these four guys were battling a gigantic Kirby monstrosity that was ripping a huge new manhole in a city street. And what four guys! I probably spotted the (truly awful, by my lights) new version of The Human Torch first, because it was bright red; but I quickly focused on the second, smaller monster on the cover—and realized from the box at the right that he must be called “The Thing.” art.
I paged through the comic and bought it—for the concept and
—or, just for a little while there, a couple of characters coming out of, of all places, the Archie Comics Group! Yep, I was on hand in 1959, still reading comics at age eighteen, when two issues of The Double Life of Private Strong heralded a too-brief revival of The Shield, a hero I remembered vaguely from stories in a few issues of Pep Comics I’d seen as a kid. Nice stuff! No credits— but I knew it was “Simon & Kirby,” of course. Just a couple of weeks later, there was Adventures of The Fly, a great new character, with an origin that echoed the wonderful Fawcett “Captain Marvel.” What I didn’t know at the time, of course, was that these two titles were, in a sense, the last proud echo of the Simon & Kirby team. As I know
Monster Sale! (Left:) Kirby’s cover for the first “Challengers of the Unknown” story, in Showcase #6 (Jan.-Feb. 1957), reportedly inked by Roz Kirby & Marvin Stein. It was, though nobody knew it at the time, a bit like a foreshadowing of the Fantastic Four before they gained super-powers and switched companies (just like Jack did). [TM & © DC Comics.] (Right:) A couple of years later, following a reversal of fortune too complicated to be gone into here, Jack was working mostly for the rump company that had once been Timely/Atlas Comics (and would soon become Marvel Comics), on giant-monster extravaganzas such as the one in Amazing Adventures #5 (Oct. 1961). Thanks to John Cimino & the Grand Comics Database for both scans. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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Lee, and about other aspects of the comicbook business. And I was soon thrilled to learn that, when Jerry sent a copy of CC #1 to Stan, he sent back a letter that mentioned my review— and me by name. It just couldn’t ever get any better than that! I soon began to have a far greater appreciation than before of both Lee and Kirby—but again let’s concentrate on Jack here. He was all over the comics that came out from once-Atlas over the next year or so: The Incredible Hulk, “Thor,” “Ant-Man,” “Iron Man,” even a “Human Torch” solo feature. While Lee didn’t fully write everything, and Kirby didn’t pencil everything, those two seemed to
There’s A Star-Spangled Banner Fly-ing Somewhere! And, as a matter of fact, it was flying at the Archie Comics Group! This was—except for DC’s Sandman #1 (Winter 1974)—the unheralded “last hurrah” of the Simon & Kirby team, though it’s not known if Joe S. did any actual scripting or artwork for either Archie title, but he was editor/ packager of The Double Life of Private Strong #1 and Adventures of The Fly #1 (both Aug. ’59). Thanks to John Cimino & the GCD. [TM & © Estate of Joe Simon.]
I fell in love with the Thing before I’d finished reading the origin story. And, upon that reading, I’d fallen in love with the writing as much as with the art. The dialogue had a different tinge to it, somehow—a bit more realistic, and certainly more full of drama and emotion, than the Julius Schwartz-edited DC mags that I liked (but, I quickly realized now, on a quite different and more juvenile level). Yeah, it was Stan Lee’s writing that made me an instant fan of The Fantastic Four— But it was Jack Kirby’s art, too, that did that— especially his visual representation of the Thing—and to a lesser extent of the Mole Man, a far more sinister-looking villain than the Mirror Master and Sinestro from Julie’s books, bless ’em. I immediately sat down and wrote what got printed, Stan Lee & Jack within 2-3 weeks, as a “review” of FF #1 in the first issue of Kirby the ad-fanzine The Comicollector, from my Alter-Ego editor (left to right) at a 1966 Jerry G. Bails… dated September 1961, but actually out in meeting of the National the mails by late August. In it I identified the artist as “Jack Cartoonists Society. Kirby (of the oldtime Simon-Kirby team, which originated Thanks to Sean Howe. Captain America, the Guardian, Stuntman, Challengers of the Unknown, and many others),” and noted that the new “Together For The First Time”—Down Under! comic stood “somewhere between the Challengers and the new Justice We figure you probably spotted the Jack Kirby/George Klein cover for 1961’s League of America.” Otherwise, I didn’t comment on the artwork as Fantastic Four #1 back on page 39, so here’s an Australian edition of that such. But my love for the Thing was evident in the review. Within a short time, through Jerry and other fans, I learned far more than I’d ever known before about Simon & Kirby, about Stan
iconic image, which appeared in 1974 from Newton Comics. It’s almost as garish as one of those early-’70s “Day-Glo” posters, but it gets the job done! [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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be the real powerhouses behind this new conglomeration of super-heroes, and I was on board for the duration. But I only ever exchanged a couple of letters with Stan—and, not knowing where he lived or if “Atlas” would forward letters to him, I never sent any kind of missive to Jack Kirby.
Jasper Sitwell—“Muscle Of The Midwest” And then, one early-July day in 1965, Stan Lee hired me at what by now was known as Marvel Comics—and everything changed for me. Strangely, I don’t recall the precise first time I met Jack Kirby, the way I do my first encounters with Stan and with artists John Romita and Bill Everett. But it was surely on a Friday, as that’s the day Jack usually came into Manhattan to deliver work and to talk over upcoming assignments with Stan. I wasn’t any more awestruck meeting Jack than I had been meeting Stan or John or Bill—well, that is fairly awestruck, actually—and I’m sure I gushed a bit about my love not just of the Marvel work he was doing but of his earlier efforts on the likes of Fighting American, et al. I recall that he remembered (and pronounced for me) the name of the villain called “Super-Khakalovitch” from FA #6; he seemed to appreciate the fact that I recalled names like Poison Ivan and Hotsky Trotsky—but how could I not have? At the same time, it never occurred to me what Jack might’ve thought of me, this underweight, under-sized young hayseed from Missouri who often talked too fast and, without purposely doing so, probably used more multi-syllable words than the average comics professional he’d met before. I guess I learned that later, when his early-1970s assistant, Mark Evanier, stated that Jack had said he’d based the loquacious, if not downright prissy agent Jasper Sitwell in “Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.” at least partly on me. I was, I suppose, both flattered and deflated. But I was totally thrilled when Jack tossed me onto the splash of a three-page humor story he wrote and drew for an annual or something, and had me referring to myself as “Rascally Roy Thomas—Muscle of the Midwest.” The “Rascally” appellation had come from Stan, but the rest was pure Jack. I was sorry to see I wasn’t in any other panels in the story…and was even sorrier when, because he didn’t much like the story, Stan delayed its publication for several months, so that it wound up in a different magazine
“Don’t Yield—Back S.H.I.E.L.D.!” The introduction of new S.H.I.E.L.D. agent Jasper Sitwell in Strange Tales #144 (May 1966). Script by Stan Lee; layouts by Jack Kirby; pencils by Howard Purcell; inks by Mike Esposito. Jack later told his early-1970s assistant Mark Evanier that he’d based Sitwell partly on Marvel then-newcomer Roy Thomas. Truth be known, it was a far from flattering portrait, but of course Silver Age comics were painted with broad strokes. Besides, Stan wrote the dialogue, and he may not even have realized whom Sitwell was based on. Thanks to Bob Bailey. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
from whichever one it had originally been intended for. But I was ecstatic to finally see it in print… and if Kirby wanted to also use me as the basis of Jasper Sitwell, well, that was (retroactively) okay with me, too. Because Jack and Stan were always each other’s main order of business when he came into the office, I don’t really recall having any real one-on-one conversations with Kirby during that era. But on occasion, on Fridays, a bunch of us would go to lunch—only rarely with Stan in attendance—and I was thrilled (that word again!) to be seated at a table with the likes of Jack Kirby, John Romita, Sol Brodsky, Stan Goldberg, occasionally Frank Giacoia or Bill Everett. They talked about the good old days, the bad old days, the new times, shop talk, not-shop talk, whatever. The only thing I remember pretty much verbatim from any of that is when someone (probably Goldberg or Romita) asked Jack what he thought the next big trend in comics would be. Without missing a beat, he replied something very close to: “I don’t know… nobody knows. But I do know one thing…it won’t come from Jack Kirby and it won’t come from Stan Lee. It’ll be two guys in a basement somewhere, with some big new idea.” I thought of that particularly when the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles hit. “Two guys in a basement,” indeed. I was there, to my happiness (as a comics historian) and my sadness (for what it meant to the Lee-Kirby team), that Friday in late 1965 when a New York Herald Tribune interviewer with more self-esteem than insight talked with Stan and Jack in the former’s office. I wasn’t present for nearly all the conversation, but Stan did call me in at some point, for some reason—and then I was there
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“You Just Slip Out The Back, Jack… Make A New Plan, Stan…” I didn’t see much of Jack after the Kirbys moved to California in 1969. Nobody back East did.
“Muscle Of The Midwest” The publication of the three-page story “This Is A Plot?,” penciled and written by Kirby, was delayed for some months because Stan didn’t much care for it… so it’s uncertain whether it was done before or after the debut of Jasper Sitwell. Still, Roy was chuffed to see himself lampooned by the King on its splash panel, which saw print in the 1967 FF Annual. Inks by Frank Giacoia. See the entire page in A/E #161. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
for the rest of the confab. And I was as shocked as anyone—well, probably not as shocked as Jack and his wife Roz—when, a couple of weeks later, the reporter’s account was published and he heaped all his praise on Stan (probably because Stan had been so animated, as was his wont) and dismissed Jack as just a guy in a cheap suit who looked like the “assistant foreman in a girdle factory,” I think it was. The reporter, damn him to hell, had been too obtuse, too full of his own “inspired” interpretation of what he was seeing, to realize that he was in the room with two pop-culture geniuses, not one—and that it was simply that one of them was more outgoing, more “on” than the other. Would that numbskull have dismissed Leonardo da Vinci as a lesser talent if he’d proven less verbal than Michelangelo? Probably. That interview’s publication, I’ve been convinced from 1970 onward, was one of the real, insoluble nails in the coffin of Stan’s and Jack’s relationship. Not that there weren’t other problems between the two of them… and if I had missed them myself, I’d have had my new friend [artist] Gil Kane, at least from 1969 on, to tell me how much Jack vented on Stan when Stan wasn’t around. But then, Gil said, Jack had been the same way towards Joe Simon years earlier. Gil felt that, while Stan could be rather heavy-handed and insensitive at times regarding the way he was relating to those who worked for him, Jack himself was a collector of grievances, real and imagined. It’s a not uncommon human failing, no less prevalent in creative geniuses than in girdle-factory foremen. Gil had it right, I think. There were no pure-white heroes, no pure-black villains in the Lee-Kirby relationship. Sure, Stan should have talked more with Jack about the problems that were arising between them… except that, whenever he did (like when Jack wanted future Marvel credits to read “a Lee-Kirby production” or after the Herald Trib debacle), I strongly suspect that Jack would assure him everything was settled… and Stan was only too happy to believe him and not look too hard to see what might still be simmering beneath the surface. If Jack didn’t speak up, was it really so surprising that Stan couldn’t read his mind? Two great and talented guys—who couldn’t sustain their unequal partnership forever. Tell it to Gilbert & Sullivan—Laurel & Hardy—Abbott & Costello—Martin & Lewis—or, for that matter, to Simon & Kirby!
I do recall the day in early 1970 that Stan Lee called production manager Sol Brodsky and me into his office and told us that Jack had just phoned him and quit—had informed him, in fact, that he was already working for DC Comics. (As it would turn out, probably on the very concept he had tried to sell Stan some time before, which was probably the Fourth World or at least the New Gods part of it, only to be verbally patted on the head by Stan and told to just keep working on FF and Thor. As if you can just turn a mind like Kirby’s on and off whenever you have a particular need of it.) Stan was so startled and taken aback by Jack’s leaving—far more so than when Steve Ditko had quit a few years earlier—that he mentioned the Kirby departure in a single sentence in the “Stan’s Soapbox” in Fantastic Four #102, and in #103 simply announced a month after the fact, that henceforth John Romita would be drawing Fantastic Four and that Neal Adams was taking over Thor for the nonce. I think he just didn’t want to give Kirby any additional publicity— although, before that, up to the very end, Kirby would figure at least as prominently in the Bulletins’ various “items” as anybody this side of Stan himself. Jack’s abrupt departure led to the second and last time I ever wrote dialogue for anything drawn and/or plotted by Jack Kirby. Earlier, I had dialogued an Iron Man/Sub-Mariner clash that Stan had intended to script before he’d had to rush off on a vacation or some such thing… and this second dialoguing was of Jack’s final “Ka-Zar” story in Astonishing Tales #2. Stan didn’t want to script it, under the circumstances, so it fell to me… and I was excited to do it, even though it was hardly one of Jack’s more inspired jobs. But it was Kirby! Cut to: A year or so later. I recall when I first saw his Mr. Miracle #6 (Jan.-Feb. 1972) come out from DC, and was horrified and, yes, at least mildly
The Plot Thickens… When Jack abruptly left Marvel, Roy stepped in to dialogue the Kirby-penciled “Ka-Zar” story for Astonishing Tales #2 (Oct. 1970). He regrets that it didn’t occur to him to give the artist credit for the plot… though, at just that moment, he was hardly trying to think of ways to ingratiate himself with Jack Kirby. Inking by Sam Grainger. Thanks to John Cimino. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
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disgusted by his thinly veiled attack on Stan in the guise of the distinctly less-than-admirable Funky Flashman. I wasn’t too happy with his turning me into Houseroy, Funky’s feckless flunky, either—but at least I quickly realized that the burlesque wasn’t really aimed at me; in fact, Houseroy was almost a sympathetic character in the end, being abandoned and betrayed by Funky in a way that reminded me instantly of the fate of poor Chop Chop Chop in Harvey Kurtzman’s “Blackhawk” parody back in Mad #5. I know Stan was both hurt and, even more so, lividly angry, whatever he may have told people (or himself) later. I heard Kirby’s name even less from his lips after that story was published. And yet, I always sensed, without his having to say it often, that he’d love it if Jack changed his mind and came back. But he wasn’t about to approach Jack with the suggestion, directly or indirectly. It would have to come from Jack.
they were, and I didn’t ask. I wanted to know… and I didn’t want to know, because I’d have lost a lot of respect for whoever had said that.
“You Don’t Need To Be Coy, Roy…”
And so Jack did come back to Marvel—although, of course, mostly remaining at a respectful geographical distance in the L.A. area. He and Stan made a show of it, first at that Marvel convention in Manhattan where Stan breathlessly announced Jack’s return and then in walked Jack, then in the comics themselves, with The Eternals and several other projects that were never going to make
Then, in the summer of 1974, when as Marvel’s editor-inchief I was a special guest of the fifth San Diego Comic-Con, I was approached by someone (Jack’s son Neal, I think) asking me to have a drink with him and Jack… probably Roz, too, I don’t recall. At that time, Jack clearly wanted to feel me out about whether the way was open for him to return to Marvel. He was quite direct about it… no beating around the bush. I’d already figured the bloom had to be off the rose between Jack and DC editorial director Carmine Infantino—but this was the first solid proof of that.
“They’re idiots,” I told Stan unequivocally. “Hire him back— but don’t let him write.” Neither Stan nor I had changed our minds about Jack’s dialogue on New Gods, et al. “Well, he says that if he comes back, he has to write all his own material,” Stan rejoined. “Okay, then get him back anyway,” I said without hesitation. “Better to have him working for Marvel than for DC or anyone else.” “That’s what I thought, too,” Stan said, “but I just wanted to see what you thought.”
I hadn’t particularly expected to be approached as a go-between—not that I was overly surprised, either—and I hadn’t prepared an answer. But I found myself saying something very, very close to the following: “Jack, I know Stan would love you to come back. But there is that one little matter—he was very hurt by your portrayal of him as that Funky Flashman character a while back. Now, I didn’t mind all that much about the ‘Houseroy’ character—I never felt it was really aimed at me—but Stan did feel Funky Flashman was aimed at him.” Jack laughed nervously, and said, basically, “Well, you know, that was all just in fun.” I decided to ignore that line of conversation entirely. If there was one thing Jack and I both knew, sitting there opposite each other that day, it’s that there had been nothing “in fun” or good-natured about the Funky Flashman sequence. I just repeated to him that as editor-in-chief, I—and more importantly, Stan as publisher—would love to see Jack back at Marvel, and that the two of them would be able to get past any difficulties. As it happened, I left the editor-in-chief job a couple of weeks later, and Jack (for unrelated reasons) decided to delay his attempted return for a little while.
Jack Is Back—Sort Of! Several months later, in ’75 now, on an errand in to Marvel, I found myself hailed by Stan from his office. I went in, and he closed the door behind us. “Jack wants to come back,” he told me… knowing, of course, of our meeting months before. “That’s great,” I said. Stan then told me, to my surprise, that there were “a couple of people out there”—he gestured vaguely toward his doorway—who didn’t think he should allow Jack to return. He didn’t say who
A Houseroy Is Not A Homeboy The Funky Flashman/Houseroy story in Mister Miracle #6 (Jan.-Feb. 1972) didn’t exactly make Roy (let alone Stan!) feel all warm and fuzzy toward Jack, either. Here, Funky sacrifices Houseroy in order to effect his own escape. Inks by Mike Royer. Thanks to Barry Pearl & Nick Caputo. [TM & © DC Comics.]
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me forget Fantastic Four, but which were still welcome additions to the Marvel canon. I myself found every excuse I could to work with Jack, mostly by arranging for him to pencil covers for early issues of my new series The Invaders, so he could draw the WWII versions of The Human Torch, Sub-Mariner, and especially Captain America. I was really pleased with those covers—and with his rendition of one character I had visually designed myself, Union Jack. Jack gave me the original art for that cover (#8) when I asked him if I could buy it, and I had it for a couple of decades. I was a fool ever to let it go. Around this time, I also became the scripter of Fantastic Four, and I had a minor brainstorm. With Stan’s blessing, I phoned Jack and invited him to become the artist and plotter of that comic. I don’t recall our discussing how payments would be divided, but, since the plotting was by now counted more officially as part of the writing, it meant that his name could come first, before mine… I figured he might like that. Of course, I’d still be the editor, under my contractual deal with Marvel, so I could ask for changes if needed… but I felt I’d be able to give Jack his head as much as Stan had a few years earlier. Probably more so, because I’d have been less likely to insist upon extensive changes after an entire story was penciled, the way Stan often had. I knew how much those late, often unpaid-for changes had angered Jack, and I figured it would rarely be worth it to me to insist upon such things. Jack, though, informed me that he would pencil FF only if I would write out for him a detailed plot—panel by panel—for each story. I don’t recall even thinking about how that might have affected the proffered credits, because his counter-offer was an instant non-starter for me. If I wasn’t going to get any of Jack’s thinking in terms of pacing and storytelling, then at that stage I figured I’d just as soon have Rich Buckler or someone else draw the comic in a Kirby style. I felt Marvel would wind up getting more for its money the latter way. So, regretfully, I gave up on the idea of a Kirby-Thomas Fantastic Four. Not long before, I had also launched a new title, What If?, with its parallel-world tales of Marvel heroes, and I invited Jack to be the artist and de facto co-plotter of one issue I would script and, of course, co-edit—I don’t recall any conversation re credits, payment, etc., but there may have been one. I wanted a story in which Jack, Stan, 1963-68 corresponding secretary Flo Steinberg, and I myself would get zapped by cosmic rays and become the Fantastic Four instead of Reed and the gang… I don’t think there was ever any doubt in anyone’s mind that we four would wind up as the Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl, and Human Torch, in that order. Jack took the assignment… then double-crossed me. When the pencils (and the plotted story) came in, Jack had erased me from the whole thing and had made Sol Brodsky the Torch instead. For a little bit, I was mad as hell. After all, this concept had been totally my idea, not Jack’s… I was the series’ editor, and he had disobeyed my instructions. I could’ve insisted on major changes, even if it had meant having someone else redraw Sol (who had left Marvel in 1970 but soon returned to become a vice-president and special assistant to Stan for various projects) into my likeness. But, after a bit of thought, I realized that Jack’s version— however he had intended it, and whatever unspoken motivations lay behind it—was really a better idea than having me be the Torch. After all, Sol had been around, as Stan’s associate and an artist, at the time of FF #1. Sol had even designed that upper-and-lower-case Fantastic Four logo… and had wound up inking issues #3 & 4… several years before I wandered into Marvel’s Madison Avenue digs.
“What If The Fantastic Four Were The Original Marvel Bullpen?” Well, in that case, Roy Thomas would have conceived the story idea, Jack Kirby would have written and penciled it, and Mike Royer and Bill Wray would’ve inked it. Scan sent by Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
So I let the story stand, and had Kirby dialogue it. (Or perhaps he had already written dialogue, unbidden… I forget, and it doesn’t matter much at this point.) It worked out pretty well—a fairly good story, even if the “S” People turning out to be the Skrulls was a pretty lame excuse for a mystery. Jack got off some funny bits of dialogue, too. It became the last time Jack would draw the Fantastic Four for comicbooks. But of course I had to run the whole thing by Stan, and he insisted on one change throughout. Jack loved to refer to Stan, in person or in print, as “Stanley,” perhaps as a diminutive, perhaps as a way of reminding him that he’d once been Simon & Kirby go-fer Stanley Lieber rather than Stan Lee. Whatever the reason, Stan would hit the roof whenever Jack did that in writing… and he instructed me to change each and every “Stanley” in the story to “Stan”—something I (reluctantly) did. I kind of liked Jack’s calling him Stanley in that What If? yarn, since it sounded more like the way Jack spoke. But I didn’t mention that to Stan. And since by then I had moved to Los Angeles, he and I never had that much occasion afterward to discuss Jack Kirby, except in general “I-really-don’tunderstand-why-he-ever-left” terms. Probably it’s just as well.
You Don’t Know Jack… But… Soon, Jack was gone from Marvel… and before long from mainstream comics… for good. It had to do with, as I understood it, non-return of artwork (much of which had been stolen from Marvel’s warehouse anyway) and/or because he wouldn’t sign a work-for-hire contract which we all had to sign in the late 1970s. Before long, Jack was bad-mouthing Stan again to the fan press, but Stan—at least for the most part—tried not to respond in kind. He finally came to realize and fully accept, I think, that he and Jack weren’t on the same page—never would be—and, really, never had been. The same was doubtless true re Jack and me, as well, though that wasn’t 1% as important. I consider myself lucky to have been hired by Stan and David DePatie, around 1979, to plot and script several episodes of the Marvel/DePatie-Freleng animated Fantastic Four TV series for which Jack did storyboards, including for a
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Thomas) while Jack and I were on some panel, Roz told Danette that I was “the best writer.” I don’t know if that came from Jack, or was just Roz’s way of being polite, but it made me feel good to hear it. Because Jack was the best there was at what he did. And I don’t mean just drawing. For my own part, in recent years I’ve made a belated discovery. I’ve said for decades, and meant it, that Joe Kubert was and is my favorite comics artist, and Kirby my second-favorite.
An Olympian Feat Kirby penciled the storyboards for all the several animated Fantastic Four episodes that Roy scripted for TV circa 1979, including these for the one titled “The Olympics of Space.” Special thanks to John Morrow. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
couple of original stories of mine. Oddly and relatively uniquely for television, we did those stories the old plot-first “Marvel-style” way, which was already slowly fading from Marvel itself—to comics’ detriment, I’ve always believed, seeing what Stan, Jack, Ditko, and others, including myself, turned out back in the ’60s and ’70s and even afterward. I’m glad to say that Jack and I (and Roz and I) were always friendly when we encountered each other at cons and the like. He and I served on panels and as costumecontest judges together, and though we never really had an extended private conversation, we were always civil and more. Once, at a San Diego Con in the late 1970s, when Roz was standing next to my ladyfriend Danette Couto (a.k.a. my future wife Dann
We Go Ego! We had to forego our letters section till next issue, but we knew you (like us) would want to see Shane Foley’s illo for it, featuring alternating “maskots” Captain Ego and Alter Ego as they might have been if drawn by Jack Kirby. Roy confesses it kinda make his mouth water. [Captain Ego TM & © Roy Thomas & Estate of Bill Schelly—created by Biljo White; Alter Ego hero TM & © Roy & Dann Thomas—costume designed by Ron Harris.]
I finally came to realize, though, that what I really should have been saying all along was that Joe Kubert’s “Hawkman” and “Tor” were artwise my favorite Golden Age comicbook features… …but that Jack Kirby was, overall, my favorite comics artist ever. It just took me a few decades to totally realize it. Like I said above: Jack was the best there was at what he did. He always was… and he always will be.
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by Peter Normanton
That Old Black Magic—Plus! Two early “Joe Simon and Jack Kirby” concoctions of eeriness were Black Magic and The Strange World of Your Dreams, both series for the Prize/Feature comics group. The covers of Black Magic, Vol. 2, #9 (a.k.a. #15, Aug. 1952), and TSWOYD, Vol. 1, #2 (Sept.-Oct. ’52) were pencilled by Kirby; the inker is unidentified, though some or all of it may have been done by Kirby himself and/or by his partner Simon. [TM & © Estate of Joseph H. Simon & Estate of Jack Kirby.]
I
f there had never been a Jack Kirby, I wonder how comics would have evolved, for without his innovation, the eminence of the Silver Age may never have been. Those of you with the good fortune to have savoured the excitement of the Golden Age or the ensuing years of the Silver Age will know how
Jack’s vision made it that extra bit special. As special as these comics were, my long-held affection for them curiously waned around ten years ago. The four-coloured treasures that had once shimmered with such lustre no longer shone quite so brightly. It was a strange period in my life, yet the
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Captains Outrageous
sight of a vintage Marvel hero, invariably drawn by Jack, would occasionally rekindle some of those fading embers, engendering a smile as I recalled the days of my youth. Those embers finally began to burn anew when, one afternoon while sprucing up my loft, I came upon a box of early British Marvel reprints, mostly Mighty World of Marvel and Spider-Man Comics Weekly. I hadn’t bothered with these comics in such a long time, since first becoming enamoured of their US counterparts in the snowbound month of January 1977. My tidying up was soon forgotten, as the fifth issue of Mighty World of Marvel, dated November 4th, 1972, insisted I partake of its content. With each turn of the page, their enchantment began to work, exposing me once more to Jack’s artistry from The Incredible Hulk #3, followed by The Fantastic Four’s third appearance, along with an equally exciting Steve Ditko “Spider-Man” episode dating back to Amazing Spider-Man #2, each of course scripted by Stan Lee. Less than half an hour later Mighty World of Marvel #5 became Mighty World of Marvel #6, and so it continued, leaving my loft as jumbled as ever. Between them, Jack, Stan, and Steve had saved the day, having reached out through the years to return me to the fold. It wasn’t long before my appetite for comics had been wholly renewed, prompting me to resume my dubious acquaintance with their darker side. This should have come as no surprise, because the villains Jack created alongside Stan Lee were in every respect as diabolical as the pre-Comics Code abominations for which I have such a fascination, alluding to the fact he, too, at some point in his career had dallied in this tenebrous domain. This portion of his time in comicbooks has too often been overlooked, overwhelmed by the exploits of his super-heroes; yet, together with Joe Simon, he played an unusual part in promulgating the odious tide that consumed the newsstands of the United States at the dawn of the 1950s. From their earliest days, the vampire was plying its malfeasance in the handful of comics being readied for publication. This blood-sucking infestation was in evidence in a “Dr. Occult”
(Left:) Jack makes at best slight concessions to the style of Captain Marvel co-creator C.C. Beck for the hero’s battle with Bram Thirla, one of comicdom’s earliest vampires, from Fawcett’s 64 Pages of New Captain Marvel Adventures [“#1,” 1941], although his own style is evident in his rendition of the vampire, etc. Inks by Dick Briefer, of Prize “Frankenstein” series fame. As for Joe Simon, surely he was doing something locked down in a hotel room with Kirby and Briefer for several days! [Shazam hero TM & © DC Comics.] (Above:) The covers to Timely’s Captain America Comics #5 & #8 from the August and October 1941 issues reveal so much more of Kirby’s style and his panache for horror. Inking by Syd Shores & Al Gabriele, respectively. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
adventure created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster for New Fun #6, cover-dated October 1935. Five years later, one of the greatestselling heroes of the age was pitched into battle with “The Vampire” as the finale for the highly prized premier of 64 Pages of New Captain Marvel Adventures, from March of 1941. While Jack may have lacked confidence at this embryonic stage in his career, his (and partner Joe Simon’s) emulation of C.C. Beck’s cartoon-like style was indeed admirable, with Dick Briefer also to be applauded for his masterful embellishment. It is highly likely pulp writer Manly Wade Wellman was assigned to write this tale, which detailed Captain Marvel’s altercation with the vampire Bram Thirla. Although Thirla managed to sink his fangs into our hero, the Big Red Cheese refused to succumb to his vampiric curse, living on to bring this foul creature to heel, thanks in part to Billy Batson’s discovery of “The Vampire Legend,” penned by one H.P. Lovecraft. There was one other occasion during the Golden Age when the undead slipped from the shadows to plague Jack’s drawing board, in the pages of Timely’s Marvel Mystery Comics #20, cover-dated June 1941. The unworldly creature skulking in the panels of the “Vision” episode “The Vampire Killer of Star City” was not what it seemed, in a tale oozing with an atmosphere presaging the terrors of the pre-Comics Code years by almost a decade. This newly established duo had dabbled with the darkness some months before, in the pages of Daring Mystery Comics #6’s Fiery Mask encounter with the “Legion of the Doomed” in September 1940, where deep in the bowels of the Earth a host of demons colluded with malice aforethought. The artwork in the
The Jack Kirby Macabre!
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The Horror? The Horror? (Above:) The covers to Captain America Comics #9 (Dec. 1941) and #10 (Jan. 1942) reveal an appreciable glee to Jack’s excessive artistry; however, though Kirby himself said he thought of that series as “horror,” it was a rare event to witness anything truly gruesome in the pages within. Inks for #10 by Joe Simon; inker of #9 unidentified. (Top right:) The chessboard splash from Captain America Comics #1 (March 1941) set the tone for so many of these Timely stories, teasing with a terrifying image before delivering an action-packed thriller devoid of any real horror. Joe Simon may have contributed to this splash in terms of either pencilling or inking; Syd Shores is credited with co-inking. Scripter unidentified. (Bottom right:) However, the scene in the netherworld from the “Fiery Mask” story in Daring Mystery Comics #6 (Sept. 1940) was indeed a disturbing spectacle. Simon is credited with pencilling the first four pages of this story, Kirby with the remaining six pages (as per page depicted), as well as scripting and inking. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
final six pages of this tale has been attributed to Jack, a sequence evocative of the cinematic melodrama of what even then was a bygone age, with Joe Simon providing the script throughout and the art for the first few pages of this descent into the netherworld. Having returned the Fiery Mask to this mortal plane, there was a suggestion the menace of the last few pages had all been but a figment of his imagination in an ambiguous denouement, whose cunning conspired to aggravate the readership’s sense of perturbation. For a while, the reader may have lingered over this unease, but not so for the team of Simon and Kirby, who were already preparing to unleash yet another terror for the next installment of “The Vision” in Marvel Mystery Comics #14. There is uncertainty as to which of the team provided the script for this tale, but the heroics of The Vision were very much to the fore as the aforementioned terror ripped and clawed its way through this seven-page embroilment. Such was the volume of titles hitting the newsstands at this time, the gallantry of the super-hero fraternity completely swamped the modicum of horror found in their pages, allowing their gruesome display to pass largely unnoticed. As the chill of the December of 1940 fell upon the streets of North America, the newsstands buoyed with ever-greater excitement, for nestled amongst the scores of comics on sale that month was the first appearance of Captain America Comics, cover-dated March 1941. This latest addition to a fledgling industry exploded onto the scene as a patriotic rallying call destined to become the team’s finest moment. In these pages they gave comicbooks a monumental figure, whose presence would champion the cause of the free world, undermining the dread Axis, before steadfastly marching on into the next century. From its inception Captain America Comics flirted with this dark genre, but let’s keep things in perspective:
this was never truly a horror comic. Captain America’s nemesis, The Red Skull, may well have been a character of the most ghastly ilk, whose visage would have been entirely suited to the macabre of the next decade, but
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A Decade And A Half Of Kirby Terror Running across the bottom of this page and the next come the rampaging zombies from the “Captain America” entry in Timely’s All-Winners Comics #1, dated Summer 1941, with Al Avison assisting Kirby on the pencilling, and inking credited to Simon, Gabriele, and Shores—scripters officially Simon & Kirby… …followed by the splash to “The Return of The Red Skull” from Captain America Comics #3 (May 1941), which would have been perfectly suited to any of the horror comics of the early 1950s. Art & script attributed to Kirby & Simon, with some inking by Gabriele and Shores. [Preceding two covers TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.] The “Boy Commandos” splash from Detective Comics #134 (April 1948) is a rare example of the macabre at DC [and is TM & © DC Comics], with pencils attributed to Kirby and inking to George Klein… …while Jack’s cover for Prize’s Justice Traps the Guilty, Vol. 2, #1 (Oct.-Nov. 1947), pushed the boundaries as to what was acceptable in comics just that little bit further. Pencils by Kirby; inks may be by Simon. [This and the following two covers TM & © Estates of Joseph H. Simon & Jack Kirby.] In a six-pack column at far right on the facing page, we have the Kirby-pencilled covers to Black Magic #1 (Oct.-Nov. 1950) and #6 (Aug.-Sept. 1951); inkers uncertain. Below those are Jack’s cover to the Mort Meskin-inspired debut for the short-lived Strange World of Your Dreams (Aug. 1952; inker uncertain), alongside one of the titles that presaged a new age in comics: Marvel’s Tales to Astonish #1 (Jan. 1959), with inks by Christopher Rule. At bottom right are seen two of Jack’s lesser-known post-Code covers, the first a collaboration with Joe Simon for Harvey’s Alarming Tales #1 (Sept. 1957)—with central figure and flying chair by Simon and the rest of the piece by Jack—plus a return to the waxworks for DC’s House of Secrets #3 (April 1957), with Kirby reportedly both pencilling and inking. [Final two covers TM & © Estates of Joseph H. Simon & Jack Kirby, and DC Comics, respectively.]
the horror manifest in these issues was little more than a ruse. Jack would have been familiar with the way in which the film promoters of the day used advertising campaigns to induce fear in their unsuspecting audience. Similarly, he manipulated the horror motif to spice up his splash pages, using abominations of the foulest kind in a masquerade threatening acts of indescribable butchery. However, these tales were essentially thrill-packed yarns awash with customary super-heroics, deftly orchestrated to keep the reader hanging on until the very last. When Captain America Comics debuted, Cap was almost immediately pitted against a deathly chessboard. Then, just a month later, issue #2 ran with a splash for “The Ageless Orientals Who Wouldn’t Die!” whose imagery would have been quite at home in any of the Marvel monster comics of the early 1960s. Jack’s predilection for highly advanced machinery was also revealed later on in that same issue’s “The Wax Statue That Struck Death,” as he drew upon Paul Leni Leo Birinsky’s silent masterpiece of 1924, Waxworks, and Michael Curtiz’s more recent Mystery of the Wax Museum, released in 1933. And so it continued, but the horror in these Simon and Kirby issues rarely lived up to expectation. Not surprisingly, the ensuing issues of Captain America Comics rendered by Al Avison would carry on in a similar vein. Despite this subterfuge, there was one Simon and Kirby story from the period that would endure, foreshadowing the horror of the next decade, and furthermore pre-empting the zombie apocalypse accredited to a certain George Romero. This episode took place in the pages of All-Winners Comics #1, during the summer of 1941, when Captain America was thrown headfirst into “The Case of the Hollow Men.” Having crafted a characteristically chilling splash, Jack, aided and abetted by Al Avison, then set about detailing the strangulation of a police officer at the hands of a deranged zombie. Could George Romero and those that followed him have been exposed to these pages? We can only wonder, for, like the zombies of their films, this putrescent horde were hell-bent on mindless slaughter as epitomised by Jack’s memorable panel dominating page eight of this demented encounter. This surely has to be the blueprint for the zombie carnage that has since followed. The team’s departure from Timely would bring an end to this ghoulish experimentation, as their new employers at DC had recently learned to keep their distance from the excesses deployed by their rivals. Nevertheless,
The Jack Kirby Macabre!
amid the huge volume of work he produced for the company, Jack did manage to sneak in the occasional spooky splash page, as early as Star Spangled Comics #24’s “Newsboy Legion” story “Death Strikes a Bargain,” dated September 1943. Lamentably, these images were few and far between, and by the winter of 1947 this dynamic pairing had turned their attention to crime comics, beginning with Clue Comics #13 (March 1947) for Hillman and Prize’s Headline Comics #23 (March-April 1947). Later that year they debuted the gritty Justice Traps the Guilty, again for Prize, with an unequivocally horrific electric chair cover, a scene they wisely avoided in the pages within. Jack had previously used a harrowing electric chair splash in Captain America Comics #9’s “The Man Who Could Not Die” from December 1941, somehow getting away with it, but on this occasion he chose to observe a degree of caution. The excess on show in this cover reveals the extremes to which creators would go to in a marketplace flooded with comics, consequently paving the way for the debauchery of the coming decade. When that decade finally did arrive, it wasn’t long before Prize Comics announced their “True Amazing Accounts of” Black Magic, its premier coverdated October-November 1950. Having packaged Black Magic from their studio, just as they had with Justice Traps the Guilty and Headline Comics, Joe Simon and Jack Kirby left it to their readers to ascertain the truth behind these “true amazing accounts.” Their audience would have also discerned an absence of gore in this content, a feature synonymous with the disreputable comics of the period. Messrs Simon and Kirby had taken a gamble in avoiding the bloody onslaught relished by their competitors, which paid off owing to some rather inventive stories depicted by a regular team of in-house artists, amongst them Mort Meskin, George Roussos, Marvin Stein, and Bill Draut. As able as this team was, only Jack’s artistry abounded with any real sense of verve, in what was an adequately house-styled package. From the outset, Jack’s layouts for “Last Second of Life” adhered to a seemingly static six-panel grid, a format observed in most of his stories for this series. However, the energy in his artwork, along with his compelling narrative, allowed him to succeed in a way few of his contemporaries ever would. While not as gruesome as his competitors, Jack certainly had his moments, notably in Black Magic #6’s (Aug.-Sept. 1951) macabre blood transfusion splash for “Union with the Dead,” a scene conspicuous by its absence in the accompanying story, echoing his guileful approach at both Timely and DC. The skeletal remains of a group of long-dead miners carried a damning impact in Black Magic #10’s “Dead Man’s Load” (March 1952), in a page of artwork which for once deviated from the six-panel grid. Black Magic #18’s “Nasty Little Man” (Nov. 1952) was indeed a
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chiller, threatening for the duration of its telling, leaving the atrocities inflicted on its protagonists to the imagination of the erstwhile reader. The cover to this issue also hinted at Jack’s ability to draw monsters, as had the “Angel of Death” cover adorning Black Magic #15 (Aug. 1952), the pair appearing several years prior to the iconic Marvel monster comics of the early 1960s. By comparison to its counterparts this title was fairly innocuous, but it did manage to attract the attention of the Senate Subcommittee Hearings into Juvenile Delinquency when Richard Clendenen, from the United States Children’s Bureau, was called upon as the opening witness on the Wednesday morning of April 21, 1954. In a series of slides he cited the tale “The Greatest Horror of Them All!” from Black Magic #29 (Nov.-Dec. 1953), which he mistakenly referred to as “Sanctuary,” as a typically gruesome story, along with another six comics which we will evaluate at a later date. Over 60 years later, this tale of a sanatorium for people with severe deformities, labelled freaks, End Of An Eerie Era rendered by the Simon and Kirby team would still The cover to Black Magic #29 (March-April 1954) hid a be considered controversial, as a consequence of dark secret, which, once exposed in the shooting scene the finale when the girl at the centre of this story, shown above right, nearly doomed the comicbook industry! Pencils by Kirby; inker(s) uncertain. [TM & © who is revealed to be the most seriously deformed Estates of Joseph H. Simon & Jack Kirby.] of these unfortunates, is shot dead by the doctor Issue #16 of DC’s The Demon (Jan. 1974), inked by Mike who supposedly loved her. Somehow, I think Royer, would be Jack’s last horror-related cover of the Richard Clendenen missed the point of this story; era. [TM & © DC Comics.] surely “The Greatest Horror of Them All!” had to be the misguided gun-toting doctor, or maybe I The Atlas/Marvel monster have been reading too many EC comics. It didn’t comics and the attendant matter… the horror comic was doomed, with Black Magic having science-fiction tales would played an unexpected role in the industry’s downfall. become the stuff of legend, Twelve months later, Joe Simon and Jack Kirby would step deserving a lengthy article of down from Black Magic as of its 33rd issue, dated Nov.-Dec. 1954. their own, but they weren’t Although this title was never the match of those being published the horrors of just a few years by EC, Atlas, and Harvey, it did garner a favourable readership, so past. From 1968, horror would much so that, a couple of years before, the Simon and Kirby studio once again acquire a degree had introduced the perplexing The Strange World of Your Dreams, in of popularity, but Jack had the August of 1952, based on an idea conceived by Mort Meskin, little interest in its revival, who for its duration was promoted to Associate Editor. submitting just one cover and the story “...And Fear Shall Follow” for Chamber of Darkness #5 (June These were somewhat unusual supernatural stories, 1970). By then he was immersed in his Fourth World series for containing an element of psychoanalysis pertaining to the realm DC, but in the summer of 1972 he did agree to create The Demon in of dreams. Alas, Mort’s concept failed to catch on, enduring the response to the company’s request for a horror-hero title. The idea humiliation of cancellation after just four issues, with three of may not have been entirely appealing, but his character proved far Jack’s covers never seeing print. However, Mort’s idea wasn’t quite more successful than he could have ever imagined, achieving a run laid to rest. Soon after joining DC in 1970, Kirby advocated they of sixteen issues before its cancellation in the latter months of 1973. look to expand their line, with a view to embracing the culture During this period there would be infrequent Kirby appearances in of this new decade and attracting a more mature audience. The DC’s highly successful horror anthologies along with the reprint of result was Spirit World, a supernatural-styled magazine published the stories he created with Joe Simon for Black Magic, but Jack’s time in the Fall of 1971. As with The Strange World of Your Dreams, this in horror had come to an end. magazine wasn’t to last, mothballed after just a single issue, with few people ever getting to view the one that did see publication. While it may be considered a failure, Spirit World remains a unique collector’s item.
As with so many of his fellow creators, Jack would part company with horror for the duration of the 1950s, working instead on an abundance of war and romance comics. His association with Joe Simon now at an end, he supplied the occasional cover and stories to Harvey’s Alarming Tales and Black Cat Mystic and DC’s House of Mystery, House of Secrets, and Tales of the Unexpected, along with a few tales for Atlas, before joining the latter when they began to rebuild in the wake of the implosion of 1957.
The name Jack Kirby isn’t one you would automatically associate with horror comics. However, there is no denying his contribution to the genre, most notably his collaboration with Joe Simon and Al Avison on All-Winners Comics #1’s “The Case of the Hollow Men.” So, Black Magic may not have been a particularly grisly affair, but it did present its share of unsettling lore in a style that would help many creators move forward in the years following the introduction of the Comics Code. Jack will quite rightfully be remembered for his imaginative superheroes, but it was that same imagination that has allowed his darker works to stand the test of time.
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Simon & Kirby’s Recycled Masterpieces! by Michael T. Gilbert
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aving produced best-selling titles for DC, Timely, Harvey, Hillman, Prize, and Crestwood, Joe Simon and Jack Kirby decided in 1954 that it was time to strike out on their own by forming Mainline Publishing. Their Mainline titles included Bullseye (a Western), Foxhole (war), In Love (romance), and Police Trap (crime). Now all they needed was a good super-hero title to add to the mix. The team came up with two new characters: Sky Giant and Night Fighter. Scans of both surfaced on the online Heritage Auction site, providing a rare peek at some unrealized Simon & Kirby masterpieces. Kirby’s unpublished pencils to the Night Fighter comic suggest that suction cups on his boots allowed him to scale a wall with ease, Spider-Man style. I’m also guessing the goggles were the infra-red type, so he could see in the dark (the better to bash baddies!). But since the comic never got beyond the cover stage, we’ll never really know. The backup feature, “Sky Giant,” appears to be in the general ballpark of Marvel’s “GiantMan” a decade later. Cover notes indicate a hoped-for print date around September 1954. A second unused Night
See Creature! (Above:) On the left are two scenes from Showcase #12 (Jan. 1958) featuring a giant Kirby octopus from DC’s “Challengers of the Unknown.” Michael T. appropriated Jack’s sea creature when he drew his imaginary Simon & Kirby Mr. Monster cover—based on Kirby’s unpublished “Night Fighter” pencils, seen above. [“Challengers” material TM & © DC Comics; Night Fighter art © Estates of Joe Simon & Jack Kirby.]
In Fighting Shape (Far left:) Color guide to the Prize group’s Fighting American #8, which was canceled before it could see print in 1955. It was finally published in Harvey Comics’ double-sized Fighting American #1 (Oct. 1966, seen at near left). [© Estates of Joe Simon & Jack Kirby.]
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Fighter sample also showed up on the site. It was a great line-up. But, as Simon & Kirby soon discovered, 1954 was a lousy time to launch a new comic company. Between attacks on comics from the 1954 Senate Subcommittee Hearings into Juvenile Delinquency, the creation of the Comics Code that same year, and the increasing popularity of TV, comics companies were dying at an alarming rate. Despite some stellar work, Mainline went under in less than a year. And with that, the two unused Night Fighter covers were gone. Gone, but not forgotten.
Recycle! Recycle! Recycle! Simon & Kirby were never ones to waste work. They’d previously reformatted a failed syndicated strip to fill an issue of their In Love romance comic. In that spirit, I thought it would be fun to take Jack Kirby’s unpublished pencils from their 1954 Night Fighter proposal and create an imaginary Simon & Kirby Mr. Monster cover. Ever since I first saw Night Fighter’s goggles, I thought, “Give that boy a fin and he’s Mr. Monster!” So I printed the scanned art from the Heritage site and (using my copy machine) blew it up to a 10” x 15” original art size (though some Golden Age originals were even larger). I then lightboxed Kirby’s Night Fighter onto a sheet of Bristol board, and converted him into my monster-fighting hero. Naturally Mr. Monster had to battle some Kirby monster, so I added one of his cool octopi from an early “Challengers of the Unknown” appearance, drawn in roughly the same time period. Finally, I inked the art, then scanned it into Photoshop, where I lettered and colored my all-new faux-1950s Mr. Monster cover. You can see the finished product on our intro page.
Now, How About Night Fighting American? (Left:) Another Simon & Kirby Night Fighter sample page, which the team had recycled from an unused Fighting American cover of the mid-1950s. (Above:) Michael T. redrew and colored the Night Fighter sample page, reworking the hero into Fighting American—as Simon & Kirby originally intended. [TM & © Estates of Joe Simon & Jack Kirby.]
But wait! We’ve got more recycling—this time from Simon & Kirby themselves! And it involves one of my favorite S&K heroes, the Commie-bashing Fighting American. Fighting American was published by Prize Comics, beginning in 1954, shortly before the team started Mainline. Simon & Kirby produced eight terrific issues—only seven of which were published before the title was canceled. So now Simon & Kirby had an entire Fighting American issue lying around unused, plus a penciled cover for issue #9. What to do? The Fighting American #8 art sat on their shelves for a decade. Then, in 1966, Harvey Publishing produced a single double-sized Fighting American comic featuring reprints of earlier issues, plus the stories intended for issue #8. That issue’s original cover (featuring the villainous Round Robin!) was used for the one-shot, though sporting a completely different color scheme than originally intended. Joe Simon, a Harvey editor at the time, produced the book. Kirby, being otherwise engaged creating roughly half the Marvel Universe, was unable to contribute any new material.
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Ch-Ch-Changes! One question remained. Whatever happened to Jack Kirby’s un-inked Fighting American #9 cover? Well, that, too, got recycled. Since the team was reluctant to waste a good cover, they converted part of Kirby’s penciled art into a second Night Fighter cover, presumably as samples to show distributors their upcoming title. Simon or Kirby changed Fighting American into Night Fighter before inking the figure. However, on the preceding page you can still see FA’s kid partner, Speedboy, in the background! It’s a great cover, and I found myself curious to see how it might have looked had it remained a Fighting American cover (if the title hadn’t been canceled in 1955). So, once again, I re-created the
Kirby Recycles! (Above:) A famous 1944 watercolor illustration by Joseph Hirsch entitled “High Visibility Wrap”— and Jack Kirby’s reworking of it at right as the basis of the powerful cover of Foxhole #1 (Oct. 1954). [TM & © Estates of Joe Simon & Jack Kirby.]
Another Day At The Beach? (Above:) The newly-formed Comics Code Authority rejected the original cover produced for Mainline’s Foxhole #5, so it remained unpublished. (Charlton took over publication with that issue, and #5 appeared with a new and different, Code-approved Simon & Kirby cover, not seen here). Michael Wuhl recently inked and colored Jack’s initial, unused cover for that issue, as seen above. [TM & © Estates of Joe Simon & Jack Kirby; inks & colors © Michael Wuhl.]
War Always Was Hell! (Above:) It appears this Kirby cover was originally intended for Foxhole #4 (though Heritage says #5) but was rejected by the Comics Code for its violence. [TM & © Estates of Joe Simon & Jack Kirby.]
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cover, changing the altered Night Fighter back into Fighting American before inking and coloring it in Photoshop.
Warfront Is Hell!
Fix Bayonets!
And then there was Foxhole, Mainline’s shortlived war title. There were apparently two unpublished covers for that one. One beachfront battle scene penciled by Kirby was likely intended for issue #5, but rejected by the Code.
A second unused Simon & Kirby cover (believed to be originally intended for Foxhole #2) wound up being recycled as a cover for Harvey’s Warfront #28. Using a little Photoshop magic and a scan of the original art, I re-colored the cover and added the Foxhole logo, approximating how it might have looked had it been printed on that title’s second issue for Nov.-Dec. 1954. The published S&K cover for Foxhole #2 (Nov.Dec. 1954), from their Mainline company. Michael T. believes this was the replacement for the original, scrapped cover (the one that would later have “Warfront” scribbled on it, to indicate logo replacement). [TM & © Estates of Joe Simon & Jack Kirby.]
Chute The Works! (Left:) Simon & Kirby’s original (unused) cover art, and the colored version that was published a year later as that of Warfront #28 (Jan. 1956). [TM & © Estates of Joe Simon & Jack Kirby.] (Above:) Michael T. recolored this cover, adding a Foxhole logo in the process. It’s believed that this S&K cover, published up front in Harvey’s Warfront #28 (Jan. 1956), was originally intended to illustrate the “Hot Box” story in Foxhole #2 (Dec. 1954).
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MORT TODD BONUS SECTION!
Sweet Dreams, Baby! (Above:) Simon & Kirby’s unpublished covers to Prize’s The Strange World of Your Dreams #5 & #6. The title actually ended with issue #4 (Jan. 1953), but Mort Todd recently inked a photocopy of #5’s cover, and colored both #5-6. [Main art © Estates of Joe Simon & Jack Kirby; inks & colors © Mort Todd.] (Left:) Mort also added hues to an unused Simon & Kirby cover intended for Prize’s Black Magic #34. The original run of that S&K title ended with #33 (Nov. 1954). When it was revived (with a Sept. 1957 date), their cover was apparently considered too intense by the Comics Code. A tamer Joe Orlando cover (see right) replaced it. [Main art at left TM & © Estates of Joe Simon & Jack Kirby; coloring © Mort Todd; Black Magic #34 cover at right © the respective copyright holders.]
That’s it for now. Hope you enjoyed Alter Ego’s own Kirby recycling! Till next time…
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CAPTAIN AND THE KING JACK KIRBY At Fawcett Publications, 1940-41 by Mark Lewis Edited by P.C. Hamerlinck & Roy Thomas
Prehistory: A Study In Scarlet
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wice during its first two years of publishing comicbooks, Fawcett Publications sought out Jack Kirby to contribute his enormous talents to the company’s fledgling four-color efforts. It all began with editor France “Ed” Herron. During his time in the editorship, Herron made significant contributions to Fawcett’s comics line. Most importantly, he further developed the idea of a teenaged Captain Marvel-related character as a spinoff from the original Shazam hero that had been launched in late 1939 by writer/editor Bill Parker and artist Charles Clarence Beck. Believing that the new strip should have a different style from the main (“Captain Marvel”) strip, he pushed to have the illustrative Mac Raboy be the artist to render the adventures of “Captain Marvel Jr.” Herron was also instrumental in bringing Otto Binder over to Fawcett as a main writer, and likewise had a hand in launching the “Mary Marvel” feature, assigning Binder and artist Marc Swayze the task of bringing her character to life. But, even before all that: In the latter half of 1940, Fawcett was preparing a brand new title, Wow Comics—one of Herron’s earliest editorial assignments for the publisher. For the first issue’s lead feature, he invented Mr. Scarlet—a crusading District Attorney by day… by night, a costumed hero pursuing the bad guys who’d slipped through legal loopholes. It’s an idea not all that far removed from Joe Simon & Jack Kirby’s later “Newsboy Legion,” co-starring The Guardian, done for DC Comics; in the latter case, it was a beat cop doing double duty.
France “Ed” Herron The only photo we could turn up of the editor of Captain Marvel Adventures #1 (1941)— from the photo-cover of DC’s Gang Busters #10 (June-July 1950), whereon he posed as a cop about to make a collar. [TM & © DC Comics.]
Though Fawcett had a standing policy of editors not also writing for the comics they edited, Herron secretly assigned himself the scripting duties for the first appearance of “Mr. Scarlet.” He then hired freelancer Jack Kirby to produce the art for the story… probably during the latter days of the artist’s time working for Fox Comics, before he and new partner Joe Simon would take their considerable talents to another new company, Timely Comics. At this point, Kirby and Simon had already teamed up on Novelty’s “Blue Bolt” series, but apparently they were not
Young Jack Kirby (at top) in a photo found on the Internet by Mike Mikulovsky… and some nice early examples of “Kirby tech” from the Captain Marvel Adventures #1 which he and partner Joe Simon “ghosted” circa 1941, with some help from Dick Briefer and others. In “The Monsters of Saturn,” Kirby seems to have been taking at least some of his inspiration at this point from newspaper strips like Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon, but his tech designs ultimately evolved into things no one else had ever done! Script by Manly Wade Wellman; inks by Briefer, et al. [Shazam hero TM & © DC Comics.]
yet fully committed to being a steady writing-and-drawing team, so that each was free to pursue some assignments on his own. Some researchers have mistakenly assumed that Kirby was the “co-creator” of “Mr. Scarlet”—i.e., that he also designed the character visually. But C.C. Beck handled the job of Scarlet’s design (as he did for many of Fawcett’s characters), as he once confirmed to FCA editor P.C. Hamerlinck. Beck also illustrated the cover of Wow Comics #1.
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facial expression over in the second panel of page 3. This was the kind of shot Kirby would use often during this period of his work. Why not? It was effective. Though it is a bit surprising to see our incognito D.A. threatening to shoot the guy in order to get information out of him! The fifth page gives us some great Kirby figure action! You’d soon see a lot of this over in Captain America Comics, or in Simon & Kirby’s later work for DC. Well-intentioned or not, though, bursting into your secretary’s bedroom unannounced in the middle of the night like that might give her cause to call Human Resources in the morning. The whole story is executed very quickly and efficiently, almost breathlessly. If you want to get a feel for what Kirby’s work on his own was like at this point in time, this first outing of “Mr. Scarlet” is not a bad example of it. Of course you can find others wherein he pushes things just a little further, but many of the main Kirby Golden Age hallmarks are present here in the debut of yet another red-suited Fawcett hero.
Good Deeds Publishers in the Golden Age soon came to recognize that the names “Simon & Kirby” on their comics attracted attention and sold well.
Scarlet Dreams
“The Coming of Mr. Scarlet” is vintage early Golden Age Kirby. Unlike the work he would do just a month or two later for Captain Marvel Adventures #1 (see below), he’s not restraining himself or following anyone else’s lead. This is Kirby just being himself. There are only eight pages for Mr. Scarlet to take care of business, so things start off fast—and stay that way throughout the whole story. We get a nice dramatic reveal of Scarlet in costume in the middle of the second page, as one of the bad guys lights a match for him. And there’s a great, intense
(Counterclockwise from above left:) C.C. Beck’s cover for Wow Comics #1 (Winter 1940), featuring Mr. Scarlet, a hero he visually designed—and two pages of the Kirby-drawn “Mr. Scarlet” debut story in that issue. On p. 3, the hero gets very intimidating in the second panel; this is a type of shot Kirby used often during this point in his career. On p. 5, Kirby draws some terrific leaping, energetic figures, of the kind he was becoming known for. Script by Ed Herron. [Mr. Scarlet TM & © DC Comics.]
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Joe and Jack had first met while at Fox Publications. Kirby had already been working there as an artist when Simon answered a help-wanted ad in 1940 Joe Simon & Jack Kirby for an artist/ (from left to right) on an outing with their wives, editor at the in a pic taken in the summer of 1941—perhaps the company. Simon only photo known to exist of the two comics titans together during the period when they were on was interviewed staff at Timely Comics (while also doing a spot of by publisher moonlighting for Fawcett Publications on Captain Victor Fox (the Marvel Adventures #1). From Greg Theakston’s fanzine self-proclaimed Pure Imagination #2. “king of the comics”1) as well as his associate Bob Farrell, and was hired as Fox’s editor-in-chief a week later.2 Handling the art as it came through, it didn’t take long for Simon to realize that one of the Fox artists had something special going on: one Jacob Kurtzberg (he hadn’t yet officially changed his name). Kirby-to-be was looking for additional freelance work to help with the family’s bills, and Simon had taken on more freelance than he could handle. They were, as Simon admitted, visually something of an odd couple: Simon being a skinny 6’3” and Kirby a stocky 5’6.”3 But they liked each other from the start and worked well together. They rented space, and started collaborating in earnest. It was the beginning of a fruitful partnership that lasted for a decade and a half, resulting in the creation of a number of popular characters and concepts—some of which continue on today. One day, Simon met with Ed Herron, who had come into Fox Comics looking to get hired as an artist. Simon found Herron’s artwork awful and told him he needed more training. Herron was desperate, and pleaded with the editor for any kind of work he could get. “Look, Ed,” said Simon, “we have enough lousy artists
as it is. Would you like to try writing for some of them?” While he didn’t like Herron’s artwork, the editor noted that the guy’s stories were better than most of what he was currently getting. Herron leapt at the opportunity, starting off his career as a comics writer/ editor.4
The Captain Calls By late 1940, Simon and Kirby had moved on from Fox to Martin Goodman’s Timely Comics, where the team created a new character you may have heard of: Captain America. Around the time S&K were finishing up the debut issue of Captain America Comics for Timely, Simon got a call from editor John Beardsley at Fawcett Publications. Beardsley wanted Simon to come by and talk with him (and Fawcett art director Al Allard) about doing a comic issue for them, featuring Fawcett’s own Captain character: Captain Marvel. Where did things stand with Captain Marvel when Simon got the call from Fawcett? It was still early in Captain Marvel’s development, but the Fawcetts already knew they were onto something with their Whiz Comics star. The publisher sought to capitalize further on his growing popularity with an all-Captain Marvel title. In June of 1940, Fawcett had taken an early run at this idea with Special Edition Comics (released the same month as Whiz Comics #7). That one-shot had featured stories by the same Cap-creators team from Whiz: writer Bill Parker and artist C.C. Beck (with some inking and background assistance by Pete Costanza). The standout component in the “Captain Marvel” stories was Beck’s artwork. The artist in later years had a tendency to downplay his contributions to the character. He felt that a comicbook artist was merely an “extension of the writer,”5 a craftsman who would simply build according to the blueprint they were given, with no personal statement attached. I would have to take slight issue with Beck on this. If you look at the stories contained in Special Edition, the scripts were fairly run-of-the-mill for the era. But because it was Beck drawing them, this gave them a different tone.
A 1942 Fawcett Editorial Meeting A 1942 Fawcett editorial meeting held by (left-to-right) Mercedes Shull, John Beardsley, Otto Binder, Tom Naughton, and Rod Reed—and an early-’40s photo of artist C.C. Beck—frame the latter’s cover for the 1940 Special Edition Comics one-shot, only half a year after Captain Marvel’s debut. [Shazam hero TM & © DC Comics.]
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Beck’s art was already having a profound influence on the strip—shaping it and pointing toward the endearing direction it would ultimately take.
Fawcett), but they chose not to. For them, it was back to their day job working on the other Captain for Timely.
Back to Simon: Without attracting attention at Timely (since he was on staff, and publishers frowned on the idea of staffers freelancing for their competition), he took a walk over to the Fawcett offices. It turned out that Ed Herron was also a part of the meeting—having just been assigned as their new comics editor and to spearhead a new, ongoing all-Captain Marvel title6 —and wanted to see if Simon and Kirby might be interested in doing the first issue of the new book. In Simon’s words, “Their problem was they had one week to get the first issue of Captain Marvel Adventures to the printers…. Jack and I got a hotel room around the corner from where we were doing Captain America.”7 “[We] set up shop with drawing boards propped against the small writing desk, between chairs, and even on the beds. After working a full day at Goodman’s office, and gulping a quick sandwich, the night shift would begin. Jack Kirby and I would lay out the script and art on the boards, Kirby would ‘tighten up’ the penciling. Inkers and letterers were called in to push out the pages to meet the tight deadline.
Beck’s later comment about the early issues of Captain Marvel in the 1940s. He Adventures was wrote all the that “Jack Kirby scripts for CMA did the first issue #1. (For lots more about the pulp of that. And a author’s Fawcett couple of other comics work, see guys did the the FCA section of second issue [sic], A/E #163.) but they were so bad that Fawcett decided to have it all kept in the shop where we could keep control.”12 This was the beginning of Fawcett dividing the labor on the title among multiple artists and assistants, assembly-line style. Beck was the chief artist and supervisor, going over everything to make sure it all had a consistent look sustainable for the long haul. The evidence is that this policy was fully in place around Captain Marvel Adventures #5.
Manly Wade Wellman
Well, He Did Have The Speed Of Mercury, Right? The cover of Captain Marvel Adventures #1 (March ’41), with the running figure of Cap by C.C. Beck, looks very much to have been a last-minute, slapdash affair. [Shazam hero TM & © DC Comics.]
“It [was] a week of seemingly endless work which was terminated each morning only when we dropped off to sleep against the drawing board or on the littered bed, in complete exhaustion.”8 Pulp writer Manly Wade Wellman authored the stories (or “squinkas,”9 as he termed comicbook scripts) for Captain Marvel Adventures #1… most likely under the same tight deadlines that Simon and Kirby were contending with. It’s unknown who all of the inkers and letterers were that Simon and Kirby enlisted for this marathon sprint, but according to artist/historian Greg Theakston, Kirby later identified at least one of the inkers as Dick Briefer.10 Simon and Kirby were aware of Briefer’s cartooning abilities (his “Frankenstein” feature, among others, had already begun) and were hoping he might be able to bring a more polished, cartoon look in line with what Beck was achieving on “Captain Marvel.” What about the CMA #1 cover? Even that appears to have been a last-minute thing. As relayed to FCA editor P.C. Hamerlinck, Beck said he was simply asked to draw a figure of Captain Marvel and had absolutely no knowledge that they were doing the book… and that the action shot he had rendered would wind up as the cover of a comic entirely drawn by other hands.
Analysis & Verdicts So, what was the verdict on the end product? Simon felt, “The final pages were disappointing to us. They didn’t match Charlie Beck’s polished style we had been striving for.”11 Simon and Kirby had been given the option to sign their work (something unusual for
There’s no denying that Beck and Kirby were coming from very different places as artists. Beck was all about storytelling clarity, opting for a clean, simplified cartoon approach to comics. And Kirby might not have invented all of what I’ve come to think of as the “visual grammar” of super-hero comics, but he sure did perfect it! You’d be hard-pressed to come up with a comicbook artist whose work was more powerful, dynamic, and interesting than Jack Kirby’s. So it’s somewhat fascinating to see him here, early in his comics career, trying to play in another artist’s playground by his rules. CMA #1 opened with an untitled story that has come to be known as “Captain Marvel vs. Z.” Dr. Sivana (who was already shaping up to be Captain Marvel’s arch-nemesis) produces an opponent named “Z” to give Marvel a run for his money. And Z does! The story is non-stop action from beginning to end, with Cap and Z repeatedly slugging it out with increasing intensity. The story is pretty much a literal slugfest. At one point, Cap thinks he’s definitively beaten Z, only to be shocked to have him come back stronger than ever. I’m not sure that even Superman had yet dealt with a foe quite like this, one who could battle it out with him toe-to-toe. Though the panel layouts are deliberately kept simpler than the work Simon and Kirby were doing on Captain America (they almost seem to foreshadow the standard six-panel grid Kirby would use during the Silver Age at Marvel and beyond), the figures within those panels were very dynamic and powerful. Both his Captain Marvel and Z were a bit longer-limbed, which was how Kirby tended to draw his heroic figures in those days.
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When “Z” Didn’t Stand For “Zorro” Two consecutive “Captain Marvel vs. Z” pages from Captain Marvel Adventures #1, wherein Kirby shows his skill at doing all-out action! Inking & additional art by Joe Simon, Dick Briefer, et al. Script by Wellman. This sort of slugfest was very unusual for a “Captain Marvel” story. [Shazam hero TM & © DC Comics.]
The rendering on these drawings is stripped down, but there’s no mistaking the energy there! The issue’s second entry, “Captain Marvel Out West,” felt a bit strange, having the World’s Mightiest Mortal plunked into the midst of a Western story about cattle rustlers; but this was the early days of the super-hero genre, and publishers were still figuring out what types of stories did or did not appeal to readers, and trying to offer some variety. Westerns in comics wouldn’t reach their zenith until much later, but there was still enough interest in them at the time. This tale is quieter in some ways than the Z story, but Kirby looks for ways to keep it interesting. For example, on the second page, he has Cap riding a bucking bronco, and the figure is actually bursting out of the panel borders. He and Simon would do that fairly commonly in their other work, but it’s unusual to see that done in a “Captain Marvel” story. You’ll also notice in this tale that Cap doesn’t seem to be flying. Instead, he’s running around chasing cattle, occasionally making high leaps over rocks and cacti. In fact, he’s merely running or leaping during most of the CMA #1 stories—and sometimes falling great distances. The only spot in the whole book where he’s definitely flying is on the last page of the last story. CM clearly already had the power earlier in Special Edition Comics. Perhaps Wellman wasn’t up to speed on Cap’s abilities. After all, he was having to write it all on the… fly.
Kirby got some nice active figure work in the Western story, especially all the poses with Cap on the horse on the first two pages. It’s simpler than Kirby’s usual style, but the strength of the drawings comes through loud and clear. The fourth page has a very nice panel in the middle of it, depicting people having fun at an outdoor barbecue. In some cases in this story, the camera is staged farther back and Cap is surprisingly small in the frame. But this is most likely a conscious storytelling choice, wanting the reader to see and feel the “wide-open spaces” and vistas of the Western setting. The third story, originally untitled but having come to be referred to as “The Monsters of Saturn,” is a science-fiction outing in which Billy Batson picks up a radio call for help from humans on the ringed planet, who’ve been enslaved by Dragon Men. The fantastical elements of this one feel slightly more at home in a “Captain Marvel” story, though it’s played a lot straighter than how something like this might have been executed later on by writer Otto Binder working with Beck. It’s interesting that the villains are Dragon Men. Kirby must have liked that concept, as he recycled it years later for Fantastic Four #35. Only, that Dragon Man was a lot less evil than these guys! Simon and Kirby let themselves get a little freer with their panel designs on this story, not sticking to a strict six-panel grid. It’s not quite as freeform as what you would see them do over in Captain America and in other strips, but you have pages with a nine-panel grid, panels with stair-step edges, circular panels, and even a
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triangular one! Again, some great action poses occur here. But one of the particularly enjoyable aspects of this story is that you get to see Kirby doing the kind of machinery and architecture he usually drew around this time. “Kirby tech” is always fun, in any era.
Cap, either. Thirla’s teeth won’t penetrate Cap’s skin. They do get to play a bit here with vampire lore (garlic and all that), and you get to see Thirla’s vampire army transform into wolves (something that has rarely been done in vampire films; usually you just get bats).
The rocket Captain Marvel uses to make his trip to Saturn is referred to as one he seized “from a wicked scientist.” I have to wonder why they didn’t just identify him as Sivana, as that would seem to be whom they were referring to. The ship looks as though it might be very loosely based on the one Beck did for Special Edition, for the story “Sivana the Weather Wizard”—only it’s become much more Golden Age-Kirby in appearance here. It has that big, heavy, streamlined art deco sand-cast look that Kirby’s spaceships and machinery had at this point. This rocket wouldn’t have looked out of place in the Buck Rogers or Flash Gordon comic strips, which were probably at least something of an influence on his approach to the design here.
There’s a bit of humor in the inscription on Thirla’s tombstone: “Here Lies Bram Thirla: Good Riddance.” And at one point, Captain Marvel is swallowed by a giant wolf; he then proceeds to dance around inside the wolf and makes wisecracks audible from outside, until he forces it to explode back into the smaller wolves it was composed of, freeing him.
Wrapping up the book was “Captain Marvel Battles the Vampire.” While “Captain Marvel” stories would on occasion veer into the supernatural (as they had in “The Haunted House” in Special Edition Comics), usually there was some humor or tongue-incheek aspect to how it was executed. However, this tale was played straight—dark enough to the point where several people die in this story! It almost feels more like something they would have done in the pages of Captain America, where many of the villains appeared inspired by the “weird menace” genre of pulp magazines. Of course, Wellman was at home with this story, as he was still writing tales of the occult for Weird Tales and other pulps. The vampire is named Bram Thirla (you get a no-prize if you can figure out where the name “Bram” likely came from). Cap finds he’s not able to do much to Thirla, but the vampire can’t do a lot to
Once again, panel layouts for this story are a bit more restrained than they were in the previous one. It’s mostly done on a six-panel grid, but you have spots like the next-to-last panel on the yarn’s second page, where Thirla is rising out of his coffin and his wings are allowed to extend beyond the panel borders. Or the large panel at the bottom of the eighth page, where Thirla is summoning his vampire army. Again, this story displays some nice, dynamic figure work and posing. The thing that I really feel is missing is… shadows. The drawings were kept open for color, and the color tries to carry it, but you really feel the lack of black shadows. My suspicion is that Simon and Kirby were afraid that, if they went in that direction, they’d lose the clean cartooning style they were shooting for. But when you look at how Beck had handled a similar theme in the earlier “Haunted House” in Special Edition, he did use blacks. It was done very carefully; often treated more like another color than like shadows. But the blacks were there, and they added to the atmosphere of that story. More black-spotting would have helped in “Captain Marvel Battles the Vampire,” too. CMA #1 was a not entirely successful, but not entirely unsuccessful, experiment. And it’s fascinating to see an artist of Kirby’s stature—still somewhat in his formative stages—taking on a character also still in its formative stages. There are things of value here, not just on an entertainment level, but lessons and techniques that a writer or artist could pick up that would be of benefit to them.
Not The End You might think that, since Simon and Kirby moved on from Captain Marvel after the one issue, that was the end for either one ever being associated with the character again. Not so!
Cowpoke Marvel Adventures (Left:) A lively page from CMA #1’s “Out West” where Kirby shows that not only can he do great vibrant and dynamic human figures—he can do it with horses, too! (Above:) Rather than flying, the script for “Out West” had Captain Marvel running around and leaping. He’s depicted very small here, most likely a choice to emphasize the wide-open Western spaces. Inks by Simon, Briefer, et al; script by Wellman. [Shazam hero TM & © DC Comics.]
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Dragon Around (Left:) More vintage “Kirby tech” here, from “The Monsters of Saturn,” in the design of the gun. And we have a non-flying Captain Marvel, as he is through the majority of the issue. Script by Wellman. Inks by Simon, Briefer, et al. [Shazam hero TM & © DC Comics.] (Right:) Later, in the Silver Age, Kirby (with writer Stan Lee) revisited the idea of a Dragon Man character in the pages of Marvel’s Fantastic Four #35 (Feb. ’65). This Dragon Man was not inherently evil but a simpleminded android, often easily duped by bad guys into doing their bidding. Inks by Chic Stone. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]
After the unhappy demise of Fawcett’s entire line of comics in 1953, Captain Marvel flew off into the sunset—becoming a happy memory for those who grew up reading his adventures. Later on, in 1972, DC Comics announced they were bringing back the World’s Mightiest Mortal. And Jack Kirby had a hand in it.
downtown L.A., [DC editorial director Carmine] Infantino was out there, and we sat in a room… Steve Sherman was with me, Carmine, Carmine’s then-ladyfriend, and Jack and Roz, and [Jack] told this idea, ‘Let’s bring back Captain Marvel.’ And Carmine was open to it.
Kirby biographer Mark Evanier told the story as part of 2020 San Diego Comic-Con’s online Jack Kirby Tribute Panel, which he moderated. I feel it’s best to just let him tell it, as an eyewitness participant:
“I contacted C.C. Beck. I had a friend named Gary Brown… who will remember me writing him, saying ‘Hey, will you give me C.C. Beck’s phone number?’ He got it for me, and I called C.C. Beck, and he was interested in drawing it again, and we presented this as a package to DC. And Carmine says, ‘This is a great idea; we’ll do it,’ and then a week later, he says, ‘We really kind of have to have it
“Jack loved Captain Marvel: the original Captain Marvel. Not just because he did an issue of it, but he just thought that was one of the greatest comics ever done. If there was any comicbook that he admired that was not Simon & Kirby in the ’40s, it was Captain Marvel… “When Jack was doing New Gods, Forever People, Mister Miracle for DC, he wanted to edit comics that he would not write or draw! DC said, ‘Oh yeah; we’re open to that,’ but they really weren’t. They wanted the books controlled editorially in New York, and they just wanted Jack to do the page quota he had, which was roughly 15 pages a week of his own work, and hand it in, and… comics by other people could be edited by other people. “But before Jack gave up on that, he was trying to think of a comic that he could add to the DC line-up that he could supervise… somebody else could write it (possibly me or Steve Sherman), somebody else could draw it. In this case, C.C. Beck! He said, ‘Why don’t you bring back Captain Marvel? You’re the only company that can do it.’ Because, the way Fawcett settled the lawsuit, Fawcett agreed not to ever publish Captain Marvel again without DC’s permission. So DC was the only company around that could publish Captain Marvel…. “We were at a convention [in]
The Vampire Strikes Back! (Left:) Page 2 of “Captain Marvel Battles the Vampire,” from CMA #1. You’ll notice that Thirla’s likeness changes even in the context of this page: In the first panel (as well as on the opening page) he’s drawn fairly straight. Then suddenly, for the rest of the page, he becomes more cartoony in his depiction. In the fifth panel the vampire’s wings break the panel borders—something that Simon and Kirby would do often, but it was uncommon in “Captain Marvel” stories. Some inking by Dick Briefer; script by Manly Wade Wellman. (Right:) This was a pretty clever and original way to introduce the idea, from vampire lore, that they have a severe garlic allergy. Billy Batson might be the only individual ever whose life was saved by a spicy meat sandwich. Nice dramatic, energetic posing here, on what would likely have been a far more static page in someone else’s hands. Billy Batson & Shazam hero TM & © DC Comics.]
FCA [Fawcett Collectors Of America]
edited by the people back here,’ and they took the project away from Jack. And… it was not the success they were hoping for.
With One Magic Word…And It Wasn’t “Captain Marvel!” C.C. Beck’s cover for Shazam! #1 (Feb. 1973). Although DC Comics seems to have taken Kirby’s advice about reviving the original Captain Marvel with C.C. Beck art—even if it had to be in a comicbook titled Shazam!—the company wound up doing just about everything else differently from the way the King had recommended… with less than stellar results, in terms of comics sales at the time. Still, there was the success of the 1970s live-action Saturday morning TV series—and of the 2019 blockbuster film Shazam! Cover art by Beck (Cap and Billy) and Curt Swan (Superman).[TM & © DC Comics.]
“I’m not saying that it would’ve been with Jack in control of it, but that’s how it started. And Jack was never credited for that. Nobody ever said that it was his idea. Mr. Beck was upset because he thought he was going to be working with Jack as his editor, and he did not get along with Julius Schwartz. Mr. Schwartz was a lovely man who did some great comicbooks, but he wasn’t a fan of Captain Marvel.
“There was this idea that DC had at that point: ‘Well, since Captain Marvel’s like Superman, we should have it done by the same office that does Superman. So let’s get Denny O’Neil to write it,’ and they were originally going to have Bob Oksner draw, and they were originally going to have Julius Schwartz edit it, which I think he actually did. And Jack’s point was, ‘No, no; the idea is that Captain Marvel is not like Superman! It should be done by different people; have a different feel and a different flair.’ “Fortunately, there was this wonderful gentleman who worked for DC named Nelson Bridwell, who I think is an unsung hero of ’70s comics, who understood Captain Marvel and persuaded DC to get Beck. I gave Nelson Beck’s phone number, and Nelson wrote some of the better stories that were done of that character in that series, but [he] was hampered by the fact that Julius Schwartz was not an editor who appreciated the old stories, and therefore wasn’t interested in doing the old type of stories.”13
Evanier’s story explains a lot about what was going on with that revival. Jack did so many things for comics that we can thank him for. We can certainly add his contributions to Captain Marvel to that list, and the fact that the character is not just another relic of a dim and distant but fondly remembered past.
Footnotes 1.
Joe Simon with Jim Simon, The Comic Book Makers (New York: Crestwood/II Publications, 1990), p. 39
2.
Simon, The Comic Book Makers, p. 40
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3.
Simon, The Comic Book Makers, p. 47
4.
Simon, The Comic Book Makers, p. 40
5.
Will Eisner, “C.C. Beck,” in Will Eisner’s Shop Talk (Milwaukie: Dark Horse Comics, Inc., 2001), p. 73
6.
John R. Cochran, “Joe Simon: the FCA Interview,” Fawcett Collectors of America, no. 65 (Autumn 2000): p. 30
7.
Cochran, “Joe Simon: the FCA Interview,” p. 30
8.
Simon, The Comic Book Makers, p. 61
9.
Richard J. Arndt, “Manley Wade Wellman: David Drake Discusses His Friend and Fellow Writer,” Fawcett Collectors of America, no. 222 (March 2020): p. 74
10. 64 Pages of New Captain Marvel Adventures [#1]. The Grand Comics Database, last modified May 16, 2020. https://www. comics.org/issue/1178/ 11. Simon, The Comic Book Makers, p. 61 12. Eisner, Will Eisner’s Shop Talk, p. 61 13. Comic-Con International, “The Annual Jack Kirby Tribute Panel | Comic-Con@Home 2020,” YouTube video, 1:12:05, posted July 24, 2020. https://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=qI0z4tUHe_s Mark Lewis has drawn several comics, but primarily works in the TV/ direct-to-video side of the animation industry in Southern California. The first show he worked on was X-Men: The Animated Series. Visit him at marklewisdraws.com.
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