Comic Book Creator #14 Preview by TwoMorrows Publishing

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A Tw o M o r r o w s P u b l i c a t i o n

No. 14, Winter 2017

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82658 00064

All Shadow characters TM TM & Comics. The &©©DCCondé Nast.

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also: RAINA TELGEMEIER • THE GHOSTS OF BOB KANE • SONNY LIEW • DREW FRIEDMAN

W i n t e r 2 0 1 7 • Vo i c e o f t h e C o m i c s M e d i u m • N u m b e r 1 4

T DEAD-WOODY CBC mascot by J.D. KING

Ye Ed’s Rant: Keeping Up with Jones............................................................................... 2 COMICS CHATTER

About Our Cover

Comic Book Zeitgeist: Talking with Singapore’s Greatest cartoonist, Sonny Liew, about his life and recent magnum opus, The Art of Charlie Chan Hock Chye............ 3

Art by KELLEY JONES Colors by GLENN WHITMORE

Incoming: Extra-long letters o’ comment section on our Gil Kane ish........................... 12 The Trouble With Bob: Will Murray examines the troublesome legacy of Bob Kane, spurned Batman co-creator Bill Finger, and the caped crusader’s many ghosts...... 18 Raina Telgemeier’s Smiling Army: Correspondent Eti Berland looks into the phenomenal success of the lauded graphic novelist and her cadre of fans............. 24

Characters TM & © DC Comics.

Comics in the Library: Rich Arndt on Marc Tyler Nobleman’s books about comics..... 27 Drew Friedman’s Hero Worship: Rob Smentek talks to the amazing caricaturist and recent author of More Heroes of the Comics..................................................... 28 Hembeck’s Dateline: Our Man Fred on forgotten Brit artist Leopold “Lee” Elias........ 31 THE MAIN EVENT Above: Kelley Jones graces his CBC cover with three of his signature characters at DC Comics, Batman, Swamp Thing, and Deadman. Memorably, the artist would join with writer Doug Moench, inker John Beatty, and letterer Todd Klein, to produce 34 issues of Batman in the mid-’90s within a 37-month time frame. His Deadman, of course, was featured in Action Comics and in two mini-series, all written by Mike Baron. Of late, Kelley has drawn Swamp Thing for a two-issue Convergence run in 2015, as well as a six-issue series written by Len Wein, published in 2016. If you’re viewing a Digital Edition of this publication,

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COMIC BOOK CREATOR is a proud joint production of Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows

Bloodwork: The Art of Kelley Jones. In a massive and totally geeked-out rap session, longtime Jones pal Peter Quinones conducts a thoroughly exhaustive, career-spanning interview with the comic book professional in a conversation that covers the artist’s love of movies, music, and weird fiction, as well as Kelley’s enormous body of comics work. The chat details his earliest years as Micronauts inker, breakout with his two Deadman prestige format mini-series, mind-bending “Elseworlds” graphic novels (starring Batman as a vampire), threeyear stint as monthly Batman artist, and his forays outside DC, including his work on the creator-owned The Hammer and other Dark Horse assignments, along with recent Swamp Thing work and upcoming Batman: Master of Fear. We also include a breathtaking gallery of Kelley Jones artwork courtesy of the artist......... 32 BACK MATTER Creators at the Con: The debut of Kendall Whitehouse’s photo feature........................ 76 Coming Attractions: Announcing the Archosaurs and Automobiles of Mark Schultz.... 77 A Picture Is Worth A Thousand Words: Kelley Jones’ Deadman presentation art.... 80 Right: The creation of Doug Moench and Kelley Jones, the Elseworlds vampire Batman. Here is a detail of Kelley’s cover art for the collection, Elseworlds: Batman Vol. 2, which includes all the vampire stories.

Comic Book Artist Vol. 1 & 2 are now available as digital downloads from twomorrows.com! Comic Book Creator ™ is published quarterly by TwoMorrows Publishing, 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, NC 27614 USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344. Jon B. Cooke, editor. John Morrow, publisher. Comic Book Creator editorial offices: P.O. Box 204, West Kingston, RI 02892 USA. E-mail: jonbcooke@aol.com. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Four-issue subscriptions: $40 Standard US, $60 elsewhere. All characters are © their respective copyright owners. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter ©2017 Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows. Comic Book Creator is a TM of Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows. ISSN 2330-2437. Printed in China. FIRST PRINTING.

comic book zeitgeist

Singapore’s Greatest CBC talks with graphic novelist Sonny Liew about The Art of Charlie Chan Hock Chye

by JON B. COOKE CBC Editor The appeal of the art of Sonny Liew isn’t easy to simply state, but suffice to say I know what I like and I’ve loved his work for quite some time now, ever since we first met and he opened his portfolio at a Comic-Con International: San Diego, in the early 2000s. One look at the Singapore artist’s charming, engaging, humorous, and tremendously energetic work made me a fan for life, and I immediately enlisted him to share sketchbook pages for a Comic Book Artist feature back in ’04, and I’ve been an avid follower ever since. So to say I was stunned to pick up an advance copy of The Art of Charlie Chan Hock Chye [Pantheon, ’16] at a Niantic, Connecticut, used bookstore is an understatement. Sonny’s first bona fide graphic novel is, in the apt words of NPR’s Fresh Air, a “tour de force,” one that gives us a biography of a fictional Singapore comics creator while simultaneously depicting the very real political history of the Southeast Asian island city-state. This ambitious story is partly told through extraordinary pastiches of a diverse array of sources — Walt Kelly’s comic strip, Pogo; Batman: The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller; Carl Barks’ Uncle Scrooge; and even the E.C. war comics of Harvey Kurtzman — all culminating to give a moving and effective masterwork by a supremely talented artist who has matured into a creative force to be reckoned with. Thus this past spring, when Sonny visited his alma mater, the Rhode Island School of Design, I jumped at the chance to attend his presentation and the artist kindly agreed to sit for an interview. The following biographical profile had been distilled from his lecture and our talk and has been copyedited by Sonny for accuracy and clarity. Top inset: The U.S. edition of Sonny Liew’s excellent new book, The Art of Charlie Chan Hock Chye. Above inset: Detail from Sonny’s Doctor Fate #2 cover. Top right: Cover for the Singapore edition of Sonny’s latest book. Right: Photo of Sonny taken during his visit to the Rhode Island School of Design this past April. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2017 • #14

The Early Years

Though he and his older sister, Cheryl, were born in Malaysia, they had moved to the tiny city-state of Singapore when Sonny was about five years old. “My parents sent us over because they thought that Singapore had a better educational system, which was taught in English, while Malaysia’s schools used the Malay language.” Their father was a practicing physician and the Liew siblings experienced a middle-class upbringing. Sonny (whose Chinese name is Jing Xian) and his sister would copy stuff from comics and illustrated children’s books, he said. “Dennis the Menace, Mickey Mouse, all those things… everything we saw, we would make drawings. Back in those days, she would win prizes in school for her art.” He adds with a laugh, “She never had a real interest in it, but she was definitely a better artist than I was.” (Cheryl, who studied economics at Cambridge, England, and attended Harvard, worked at Morgan Stanley and is today a tech search recruiter, in San Francisco.) While there wasn’t much of a comics scene to speak of in his adopted country while he was growing up, “In the ’80s,” Sonny says, “there was a bit of a boom, because of the influence of Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, and some comics were being brought in from Hong Kong and Taiwan. There was a slight increase of creators doing original work in Singapore, but before that there really was not a lot of stuff being produced (though there were ample newspaper strips).” That is, in comparison with another Asian comics pro3

a ghost story

The Trouble with Bob

Though professing to be sole producer of Batman, Bob Kane had much “ghostly” help by WILL MURRAY

Below: Given Bob Kane’s predilection to sign work that was not made by his hand, it’s unknown whether the Batman co-creator was the true artist behind this painting, a pastiche of the immortal Detective Comics #31 [Sept. 1939] cover. Whatever the provenance, Kane is credited on this image used as one of a set of five lithograph produced in 1978.

Above: Cover for Otto Binder: The Life and Work of a Comic Book and Science Fiction Visionary by Bill Schelly. Published by North Atlantic Books, the biography features a forward by Richard A. Lupoff.

#14 • Winter 2017 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Batman, Detective Comics TM & © DC Comics.

Bob Kane would have turned 100 on October 24, 2015. A solid century after the self-proclaimed creator of Batman was born, he is remembered today as two entirely different personalities. There is the celebrated Bob Kane who created Batman. Period. Then there is the Bob Kane who co-created Batman with writer Bill Finger, and who early on all but bowed out of drawing his own creation, leaving the task to a small army ghost artists, as well as other writers. It has been fashionable these days to minimize Bob Kane’s contributions to his own character, and elevate writer Bill Finger to the status of the true creator. Kane himself made self-serving statements during his life that he was the main originator of the Guardian of Gotham City have helped to relegate his seminal role to that of mere observer or enabler status for more talented people.

The truth behind Bob Kane is more complex than that. Batman began when Detective Comics editor Vincent Sullivan asked Kane for a strip similar to “Superman” in late 1938 or early 1939. “I was at DC Comics doing fill-ins for an editor named Vincent Sullivan,” recalled Kane. “I was doing slapstick comics, funny drawings like Mutt and Jeff, rather than the illustrative type. Superman was born, and the year of 1938 is historic. The character changed the whole complexion of the comic-book industry at that time. In January 1939, we were speaking and Vince said, ‘Do you think you could come up with another super-hero?” I had shown him sketches of Flash Gordon that I copied. I was a very good copycat. Although I preferred the comic slapstick stuff, I was able to do the illustrative type if I wanted to. “So, I said, ‘Of course, Vince. How much are they making a week?’ I think they were making $800 apiece and I was making $35 or $40 a week. I said if I can come up with a super-hero and make their kind of money, I sure will! He wasn’t looking for another Superman. He was looking for another super-hero. He said not to copy it, but to emulate it. I took the figure of Superman and started putting tracings over it. First, I called him Bird-Man. He had bird wings.” Comic book history might today remember Bob Kane as the creator of an early version of Hawkman, but the artist recalled a film he had seen, The Bat Whispers. “The story was about a lot of murders in an old mansion,” admitted Kane. “I remember shadowy-like figures on the wall when he was about to kill someone. They caught up with him in the attic––he wore a costume that looked a little like my early Batman’s, with gloves, a mask, and scalloped wings. He looked like a bat––very ominous.” Over a weekend, Kane toiled on what he dubbed “The Bat-Man,” tracing an Alex Raymond Flash Gordon pose and noodling it. He called in a friend, Bill Finger, who had aspirations to become a writer. “So, I came up with a very crude drawing. Bill came over on a Sunday and he looked at the sketch. It had bat wings attached to the shoulders to look like a bat. Of course, that would inhibit him in his actions during fighting scenes. So, we rearranged it so that it would become more of a cape and swoop about like wings and flight when he’s was swinging on a rope. “I knew that of that should be dark and I had a black mask on him. But I think I might have had a red union suit instead of the gray one. The initial colors were not the colors that finally emerged. They were much brighter. Bill told me to subdue them. I got it down pretty much the way you see it on the Detective Comics [#27, May 1939] cover.”

Captain Marvel, Shazam! TM & © DC Comics

Finger’s recollections closely match Kane’s: “He had an idea for a character called Batman, and he’d like me to see the drawings. I went over to Kane’s, and he had drawn a character who looked very much like Superman with kind of… reddish tights, I believe, with boots… no gloves, no gauntlets… with a small domino mask, swinging on a rope. He had two stiff wings sticking out, looking like bat wings. And under it was a big sign… Batman.“I got Webster’s Dictionary down off the shelf and was hoping they would have a drawing of a bat, and sure enough they did. I said, ‘Notice the ears, why don’t we duplicate the ears?’ I suggested he draw what looked like a cowl. He experimented with various cowls. I suggested he bring the cowl nose-piece down and make him mysterious and not show any eyes at all. I was very much influenced by The Shadow and Doc Savage, the Phantom, things of that sort.” Finger did not mean Lee Falk’s Phantom, but the hero of The Phantom Detective pulp magazine. The January 1939 issue, probably not by coincidence, pitted the Phantom against a cloaked and masked villain calling himself the Bat. In later years, Falk himself singled out Batman as a blatant imitation of his pioneering costumed hero. “The Phantom started in New York, in 1936, in the Journal American. These guys all read it, and within ten years they had started direct copies, and they gradually developed their own things. And then others copied them, and then the whole super-hero school began. Batman was an imitation of the Phantom. The Batcave versus the Skull Cave. It was a direct imitation. The Shadow was the rich playboy, and Batman took that direction. He is a playboy, you see. He could not have copied the character of the Phantom more closely than if he had taken it out and pasted it in his strip, I think.” While Kane and Finger freely admitted that they were most influenced by The Shadow, it was not until long after their passing that the truth came out. For the Batman’s debut, “Case of the Chemical Syndicate,” both men ransacked the November 1, 1936, issue of The Shadow, featuring “Partners of Peril.” Finger compressed the novel into six pages. Nor was Kane ignorant of that fact. His art, normally full of swipes from Alex Raymond and elsewhere, also copied one of Tom Lovell’s Shadow interior illustrations! “My first script was a take-off of a Shadow story,” Finger admitted. Detective Comics #27 featured the strange character’s debut. A month later, the Thrilling pulp chain released a COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2017 • #14

new masked and cloaked hero called the Black Bat, who looked uncannily like Batman’s cousin, and a lawsuit was avoided through the intercession of Whitney Ellsworth, who had worked for both companies. It was agreed that the Black Bat would stay in the pulps and Batman would never leave the four-color realm. But Kane and Finger were not above purloining the Black Bat’s finned gauntlets for their Gothic hero. Similar gloves soon appeared on Batman. “They stole our character, so we stole their gloves,” insisted Finger.

Above: Bob Kane during the Batman TV era posing with a painting of the Dynamic Duo that was quite likely not painted by the man. Below: Among the influences that spawned Batman were pulp crimefighters The Shadow and Black Book Detective’s Black Bat.

Batman was an instant hit, and Kane realized he needed help, inasmuch as he had been working in the big-foot cartoon style up until then. Sheldon Moldoff was the first ghost Kane hired for Batman. A fellow Bronx resident, Moldoff was only 16 when they began working together. Initially, Shelly did backgrounds and lettering, starting with the second Batman story. 19

the telgemeier allure

Raina’s Smiling Army Eti Berland examines the appeal of Raina Telgemeier’s popular graphic novels by ETI BERLAND

A Huge Thank You!

Eti Berland extends her appreciation to all who contributed to this article, including Raina Telgemeier, Rebecca Oxley, Michael Gianfrancesco, Laura Given, Carol Tilley, Jennifer Billingsley, Ronell Whitaker, Scott Robins, Elisa Gall, Tom Spicer, and Alice Son.

Inset: Raina and just some of her young, enthusiastic fans.

Below: Portrait of the graphic novelist herself, Raina Telgemeier, taken by Kendall Whitehouse at the 2016 Comic-Con International: San Diego.

explains Laura Given, a K–8 library media specialist from Minnesota. “The palette is bright with light colors. Many of the shadows in Smile are done with a darker color block and not hatching, which makes the pages feel more open and light.” Carol Tilley, comics scholar and professor at the University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana, points out, “Her use of bold, flat colors, along with a nearly iconic representational style, draw in readers. All together it’s an enticing, comforting, and delicious bowl of comics mac-and-cheese.” Telgemeier’s superior attention to detail supports an immersive reading experience. She creates entire worlds within her stories that captivate readers’ senses. “The beauty of the Raina-verse is that the works are all so cohesive,” says Jennifer Billingsley, a librarian at Lake County Public Library District, in Indiana. “Even when she jumps from autobiography to fiction, the difference in narrator’s perspective is not jarring. Readers get the same feel from her works, so if they like the first one, they will keep coming back for more.” Comics open doors for young people to the joy of reading since the blend of text and images support their literacy skills. When Ronell Whitaker, a high school English teacher at Eisenhower High School, in Chicago, asked his students to rate Smile, they responded with, “I liked the drawing style,” or “It was funny,” or “That was real, Mr. Whitaker,” or his favorite response, “I knew I could finish it.” This last comment made the biggest impression on Whitaker, who works primarily with at-risk freshmen. “So many of my kids are intimidated by reading, “ he explained, “and I love that Smile put them at ease almost immediately.” Whitaker adds, “I sometimes come across readers, young and adult, who are reluctant to try comics. Telgemeier’s work does a great job of breaking down those barriers because her characters are approachable, her style is not overly complex, and the self-contained novels she writes don’t require a ton of knowledge about backstory.” Readers of all shapes, sizes, and ability levels enjoy Telgemeier’s stories. Scott Robins, a children’s librarian at Don Mills Branch of the Toronto Public Library, shares, “I’ve had discussions with parents about Raina’s work and how much they appreciate it as well, and how much they love how her books have inspired their children to read — boys, girls, strong readers, and reluctant readers. It just goes to show the wide appeal her books possess.” #14 • Winter 2017 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

In a cavernous theater packed to the gills with young people and their families, excitement is mounting as the horde eagerly awaits the appearance of the guest of honor. Since the author event was first announced, they have been counting down to this very moment. And they have arrived prepared; some even go as far as cosplaying characters, bringing handcrafted fan art, and of course, carrying multiple copies of books to get signed. So, when graphic novelist phenom Raina Telgemeier takes the stage, her ardent fans cheer with wild abandon, their love for their favorite author knowing no bounds. During the next hour, Telgemeier shares an unforgettable program of interactive readers’ theater, behind-thescenes stories, and an audience Q&A that allows fans a chance to ask their most pressing queries. She then manages the vast signing line with grace and aplomb, engaging with each reader who tries to express why her books mean so much to them. With eyes aglow of wonder and glee, they declare that they are her biggest fans. But what inspires Telgemeier’s army of young aficionados who are each obsessed with her graphic novels and comics, re-reading them repeatedly until the pages are frayed and the binding is worn (a sure sign of true love)! What are the elements of Telgemeier’s stories that encourage continued and new readership and intense loyalty? And what provokes passionate librarians and educators to integrate Telgemeier’s work into their collections and classrooms, and advocate for the importance of her comics in young readers’ lives? This throng of fans is legion and powerful, and they have a pivotal role in the story of Telgemeier’s great success. Any discussion of Telgemeier’s kid appeal must begin with her exceptional art. Telgemeier uses sophisticated artistic techniques to show deliberate body language, expressive facial expressions, and pitch-perfect dialogue. Rebecca Oxley, a teacher-librarian in Prince George’s County Public Schools, in Maryland, shares, “Stylistically, her character design is appealing and approachable; her linework is elegant and expressive.” Young readers are drawn to her visual storytelling that allows them to read the pictures. “The style is inviting — especially to new comics readers,”

Captain Marvel, Shazam! TM & © DC Comics

In a variation of that old adage, give a child Smile and they’ll read graphic novels for the rest of their life. Elisa Gall, a lower school librarian at the Latin School of Chicago, emphasizes the importance of Telgemeier’s work to the development of young readers’ understanding of visual texts. “For many kids, Smile bridges the gap between their perception of short picture books and longer forms of visual rhetoric,” Gall explains. “Experiencing one of her graphic novels for the first time tells them that reading pictures is a life-long thing and isn’t something one leaves behind in second grade.” As young readers age, they can find stories by Telgemeier that connect to the emotional truths of each milestone in their journey. By telling her own stories, she shows a vulnerability that feels authentic and relatable, which, as Scott Robins sees it, “Creates a real intimacy between reader and writer that kids rarely get with reading other books.” Everyday real-life stories of childhood, from the horrors to the glories, are presented as valuable and worthy of being told. “It’s a formative time of life where kids are just starting to really discover who they are, who they want to be, and what’s important to them,” says Rebecca Oxley. “The reader can identify with moments in Raina’s life while experiencing the excitement of someone else’s story.” Laura Given adds, “Raina (the character) feels like a real, flawed and likable kid. She feels like a friend.” Telgemeier conveys not only what happened to her, but how she felt at the time, as Tom Spicer, teen services supervisor at Arlington Heights Memorial Library, in Illinois, points out. “Her effectiveness at portraying exactly how she felt when she was that age is very powerful.” Children need that sense of validation and respect, where stories serve as windows and mirrors in their lives. Alice Son, a teen librarian at Arlington Heights Memorial Library, asks, “Remember when the most important thing in your life was whether or not your crush liked you back? It consumed you! But for teens who are living it, the failures, embarrassments, and victories of these characters are felt with a greater intensity because, for them, the panels are a mirror to their lives.” Telgemeier’s stories resonate with readers, encouraging empathy for others and a deeper understanding of one’s own experiences. By creating stories that are rich in unique details, they become universal in appeal. “She has found the pulse of adolescents,” asserts Michael Gianfrancesco, a teacher at Rhode Island’s North Providence High School and co-host of the League of Extra-Nerdy Parents podcast. “When a kid picks up one of her books, they see some part of themselves in the characters COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2017 • #14

she presents.” In Smile, young Raina’s mother explains that “lots of kids wear funny stuff to help fix their bodies… You probably don’t realize it because no one talks about it.” Frustrated, Raina yells, “Well, maybe someone should start talking it!!” And then she thinks to herself, “Maybe it would make us feel less like freaks.” This exchange captures the ethos of Telgemeier’s work as she sheds light on painful moments and awkward incidents with humor and sincerity. The accessibility of her stories, both in format and content, lets young readers know they are not alone as they struggle with the dramas of adolescence. As a creator of stories that provide authentic portraits of adolescent lives, Telgemeier has been highly regarded for her inclusion of diverse characters in her graphic novels. Educators are particularly appreciative of her portrayal of queer characters in Drama, a story set in middle school, which reflects the realities of adolescent development. When Drama was listed as number 10 on the American Library Association’s list of frequently challenged books, librarians rallied to support it, writing articles and taking to social media to protect young people’s right to read. Rebecca Oxley argues, “Raina’s earnest portrayal of life as a kid has drawn light upon comics as an influential agent for diversity. To me, the fact that Drama made this year’s ‘ALA Top 10 Banned/Challenged Books’ is just further proof that Raina’s comics have made a major and lasting impact as a whole and get people talking.” Telgemeier is aware of her audience, the range of their experiences and backgrounds, and responds in kind in her stories. Oxley shares a powerful story that illustrates this fact. “I did a read-aloud of Dave Roman and Raina Telgemeier’s story ‘The Rainy Day Monitor,’ from Comics Squad: Recess, to grades first through third grade using a document camera,” she explains. “One of my Muslim students exclaimed, “Look, Mrs. Oxley! She has a headscarf just like me!” Raina’s decision to depict diversity in her work helps kids to see themselves in her stories.” Telgemeier’s books appeal to all kinds of readers, including readers, as Laura Given puts it, “who are not normally drawn in by fantasy, super-hero, and adventure stories,” but who enjoy contemporary realistic fiction and memoir. In an industry that has often been dominated by male creators

This page: Raina Telgemeier is that rare bird in the world of graphic novels: a popular as well as critical favorite, and her books have earned her a legion of fans, both young and old (though, admittingly, mostly young). Smile (A Dental Drama), her autobiographical story of Raina’s middle school and high school years was followed up with a sequel, Sisters. Both books earned the cartoonist Eisner Awards, as well as innumerable other accolades in the publishing world. In May of 2015, four of her efforts took the top spots on the New York Times “Best Selling Paperback Graphic Books” list, an unprecedented achievement. As seen below, the artist/writer has also produced a number of Babysitters Club graphic novels, published by Scholastic Books.

the friedman treatment

Drew’s Hero Worship Talking with the great caricaturist about his new book, More Heroes of the Comics by ROB SMENTEK

Above: The creators of the super-hero genre, Joe Shuster and Jerry Siegel adorn the cover of Drew Friedman’s latest collection of comic book creator portraits, More Heroes of the Comics, published by Fantagraphics. Below: Its predecessor, Heroes of the Comics, was published in2014. Inset right: One luminary to emerge from the comics biz was Patricia Highsmith, who would go on to become a prolific novelist.

#14 • Winter 2017 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All art © Drew Friedman.

For Drew Friedman, the real comic book heroes aren’t the caped crusaders or wall-crawlers found within the pages of the magazine. Forget Superman, Batman, and Spider-man, the acclaimed illustrator — known for his hyperrealistic portraits that have graced the pages of diverse publications like Spy, The New Yorker, and National Lampoon — is way more interested in the men behind the heroes… more specifically, the pioneers who essentially created the comic book medium in the period between 1935 and ’55. Recently, Fantagraphics released More Heroes of the Comics, a follow-up to Friedman’s 2014 book Heroes of the Comics, featuring exquisitely crafted portraits and biographies of various artists, writers, editors, and money-men from the golden age of comic books. Although the sequel includes 100 more additional profiles — ranging from comics’ giants like John Buscema and Curt Swan to long-time workhorses like Larry Lieber and Jerry Grandenetti, and even little-known figures such as Orrin C. Evans and Abe Kanegson — Friedman had no plans to assemble a second volume after Heroes of the Comics was published. “I was kinda done with the subject when I put out the first book,” explained the artist, “but I knew I was leaving out some people, so that kept nagging at me. Then people kept contacting me and asking ‘how come Nick Cardy isn’t in the book’ or ‘How come Gene Colan isn’t in the book?’ And I had really no answer other than ‘Yeah, they should be in the book… I just ran out of time and space.’” Brisk sales of Heroes of the Comics afforded the artist with the opportunity to give those artists left out the first time to get exposure via Friedman’s pen and brush. “For the first book,” he shared, “it was the people you would assume would be in it, the cream of the

crop, the legends, the essentials, the innovators. So, of course, you had to include Jack Kirby, Siegel and Shuster, and Will Eisner, Harvey Kurtzman, Jack Davis, Wally Wood, and the Gaineses,” said Friedman. “The second book has a lot more obscure people, but all of them certainly talented, some of them incredibly talented, many of them unheralded, and some of them cult figures. I have to say I still had to leave out people from the second book, mainly because I couldn’t find reference material.” Although Friedman claims that he is, by no means, an expert in comics, they have been a ubiquitous part of his life. As a boy, Drew and his brothers were exposed to comic books through their father, acclaimed novelist, playwright, and screenwriter Bruce Jay Friedman, who would bring home comic books each week… directly from their source. “I was a comic fan from the get-go because my dad worked at Magazine Management,” Drew said, “which, of course, was Martin Goodman’s company. Stan Lee worked in the office next to my dad for 12 years [1954–66] when he was editing men’s adventure magazines. As a kid, my dad would deposit stacks them in our bedroom every Friday night when he got home from work. And, when we’d visit him in the office, I’d make a beeline for Marvel Comics, where Stan was the emperor and held court.” These visits remain special memories to Friedman. “[Stan] couldn’t have been more charming or nicer, especially when he learned I wanted to be an artist,” he recalled. “He paid special attention to me and would say ‘Someday Drew is gonna draw for Marvel,’ which I loved hearing.” But it wasn’t just Marvel comics that captivated the young Friedman, it was the entire medium. Friedman cites MAD, the Warren magazines, and even the mid-’60s Mort Weisinger-edited DC comics as heavy influences. “They just spoke to me,” he admitted. “It was if they were calling directly to me and were being published just for me, that’s how essential they were to my life. And from a very early age, maybe as early as six, I just knew that I wanted to be involved in that kind of work, that world, visual storytelling.” Alas, as the Marvel Age exploded, Friedman lost interest in mainstream comics, and instead looked to be an artist for Topps trading cards or become one of the “Usual Gang of Idiots” behind MAD magazine. However, in 1972, he found himself back in the legendary House of Ideas as an employee… of sorts…for a week-long work study program through his high school. While he was essentially put to task as an errand boy, Friedman has some fond memories of being in the bullpen. “Herb Trimpe was there, and John Romita was especially great,”

All art © Drew Friedman.

Drew said. “He was so nice to me: ‘Oh, you want to be an artist? Help me with this panel.’ He obviously didn’t need my help, but he was attentive… a really sweet, terrific guy. I’m forever grateful.“ The artist added, “Roy [Thomas] was there too. He had been at my father’s retirement party in ’66 and he took photos… I have some of them. Mario Puzo was there, and Martin and Chip Goodman. We talked about that, in ’72, when I was in the office. Marie Severin was also there that week working in the bullpen.” While the spinner racks no longer held the same appeal for Friedman, he remained interested in comics, largely due to his discovery of E.C. Comics (which he confessed to fanatically collect), Friedman then connected the dots to find that MAD actually started out as a comic book, and then later he was exposed to ZAP Comix: “R. Crumb’s work completely threw a deranged monkey-wrench into my brain-works, which I still haven’t recovered from.” Though Friedman was frequent introduced to celebrities and famous people through his father (many will recognize the elder Friedman’s name as screenwriter for the hit film Splash), it was the four-color illustrators that always impressed Drew the most, and often left him star-struck. “Comic artists were the true super-stars to me. I would go to the Phil Seuling comic conventions in the ’70s, in New York City, and I would keep my distance when I saw Harvey Kurtzman or Wally Wood or Will Eisner. I was just too intimidated. I could approach the publishers and writers… [but] the artists were, like, whoa, I couldn’t fathom it. They were the true rock stars. Even the younger guys like Barry Smith — he would have groupies around him. And Vaughn Bodé, he would come in with entourages.” Later, when Friedman attended the School of Visual Arts, in New York, his instructors would include Kurtzman and Eisner, which of course is somewhat ironic given his hero worship of the two men. Later, the artist would come full circle, doing work for National Lampoon, R. Crumb’s Weirdo magazine, and ultimately becoming one of the Idiots at MAD. As with the first volume, an extensive amount of research was put into More Heroes of the Comics, which COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2017 • #14

not only provided Friedman with visual reference for each creator, but also gave him the opportunity to learn more about the industry’s icons and uncover some new talent he hadn’t been familiar with. “When I go into a project, I want to learn along the way,” admitted Friedman. “For example, I went in researching Will Eisner, but then I found out the guy doing the lettering for Eisner [Abe Kanegson] became a folk singer, and the more I learned about him, I realized I had to include him too. He didn’t work that long in the industry, and died young, but the more I read, he was brilliant and I knew I had to include him too. What he was doing was innovative, and he made the lettering special.” Chief among the obscure creators Friedman wanted to illustrate are brothers Bill and Hy Vigoda, who are the siblings of famed character actor Abe Vigoda, best known for his roles as Tessio in The Godfather and Detective Fish on the TV sitcom Barney Miller. “Some people know that Bill Vigoda worked at Archie for years,” Friedman revealed, “but most don’t know the third brother, Hy, who wrote for comics for decades. In fact, Bill was frequently seen as the ‘success’ of the family before The Godfather came out and made Abe famous (or infamous).” Finding reference material on the Vigoda brothers was neigh impossible, especially for Hy, but Friedman made a

Left and above: Two of three Vigoda brothers worked in the funnybook business. At far left is Hy, left is Bill, and above is a photo of the most well-known of the siblings, Abe, who gained fame playing Sal Tessio in The Godfather and in his portrayal of New York City police detective Phil Fish in the situation comedy Barney Miller. The character was later spun off into his own show for a season. Below: Self-portrait of Drew Friedman as young comics aficionado.

“Don’t let us be mild or drab. Malevolence and terror, the glare of evil faces, ‘the stony grin of unearthly malice,’ pursing forms in darkness, and ‘longdrawn distant screams’ are all in place, and so is a modicum of blood, shed with deliberation...” — from a 1929 essay by M.R. James, ghost story writer of yore.

Interview Conducted by Peter Quinones Transcription by Steven Thompson & Peter Quinones 32

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Batman, Swamp Thing TM & © DC Comics.

It’s almost as if James were describing a vampire Batman story from his Eton township grave. Montague Rhodes James is considered the finest writer of ghost stories by everybody from H.P. Lovecraft to Stephen King. He is also Kelley Jones’ favorite writer of horror. I won’t indulge in a scholarly essay of comparing and contrasting the M.R. Jamesian influence on Mr. Jones, but just know that Kelley is a great student of horror literature. While Kelley’s talents are mostly in the visual arts, and he has steeped himself in the work a diverse group that includes medieval and Renaissance painters and pop culture artists like Kirby, Wrightson, and Frazetta; countless hours watching and dissecting Universal and Hammer horror movies, Kelley knows the primacy of pure imagination, on what can be learned from the great masters of horror stories, and the way to create dread and fever dreams by combining the words on the page with the reader’s conjuring mind. It’s the book-is-always-better-than-the-movie phenomenon. And besides M.R. James being a horror writer, he was also a preeminent medieval scholar. He translated a number of apocryphal tales (stories that didn’t make it into the mainstream Bible), and Kelley shares this love for the whispered, clearly meant-to-beforgotten tales from the spectral side of human nature. The skeletal Deadman and the Elseworlds Vampire Batman stories are examples that work outside the established super-hero canon and are yet connected. But while James led a cloistered, scholarly, bachelorhood of a life, Kelley leads a normal existence in the suburbs: married and with two teen-aged boys. He loved being his sons’ Little League coach (Kelley is a big baseball fan), going on family trips to the coast,

A career-spanning chat with the renowned artist about movies, music, weird fiction… and, oh yes, comics! and supporting his wife in her career. And if you ever spend any amount of time with him during a rare convention appearance or signing, you will be delighted with his quick wit and humor. Don’t let his penchant for dark tales fool you: Kelley is one of those naturally gifted humorists. He is flat-out funny, and is able to laugh at himself. When you meet him, ask him to tell you the “Elton John Greatest Hits” story. It will embarrass him and amuse you. One of the things I had been missing over the years, as paths started to diverge — the marriages, the mortgages, the careers, priorities being shifted — was the camaraderie of our comic book group. Besides an occasional meeting at a local Sacramento convention, or a signing at a comic shop, I hadn’t really spent much time talking with Kelley in the last 20 years. Before that though, there was a group of wanna-be artists who would meet at the Comics & Comix in the Birdcage Walk Mall and become tight friends. The shared love of comics, movies, science fiction, and fantasy created an instant bond for that small band of geeks that aspired to work in the field of comics. Kelley was first among the crew, in the mid-’80s, to break into the professional ranks when he got an inking gig on Marvel’s Micronauts. We were all envious, but not surprised. When we gathered at Kelley’s house back then (and every house he’s moved to since), our friend was always perched at his drawing board. I never saw him sit at a couch or a kitchen table. He always had a pencil or brush in hand, and there was always a drawing in progress as we visited and talked about Frank Frazetta or Christopher Lee or John Byrne or Howard Phillips Lovecraft. Previous page: Kelley Jones, expressing solidarity with Charlie Hebdo, Jan. 2015. Details from Batman #515 and Swamp Thing #1. This page: Details from Batman Unseen and Deadman: Love After Death. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2017 • #14

on the Swamp Thing mini-series, and then a wrap-up session in this past January. Eight-plus hours of interview and several hours more of just shooting the breeze. . . I didn’t get to cover all of the books and characters that Kelley had worked on, since those pages stretch into the thousands by now. There was a span of years I had stopped reading and collecting comics, except for occasional storylines. So I missed some of Kelley’s work, because he never stopped creating. And I’ll be honest, as a fan of Neal Adams version of Deadman, I did not like Kelley’s rendition, so I didn’t pick it up back then. But preparing for this interview, and going back to reading the books, including all the Deadman, I see the genius in Kelley’s artistic vision, how its atmosphere fits perfectly the tone of the story. There’s a concept in art called the Shock of the New when you see something that you’ve always taken for granted, such as the traditional nude figure in painting, and then it becomes something else in the cubist brush of Picasso (Les Demoiselles d’Avignon, 1907): planes, angles and distortions. It’s shocking. It’s new... like Kelley’s decayed Deadman or Batman’s exaggerated ears and expressionistic cape. But Kelley will tell you it’s no big deal, that I’m reading too much into his stuff. If he’s going to sit there all day, he wants to enjoy himself, to have fun. So read the interview and find out what is fun, monstrous fun, to one of the premier horror artists of the day. -- Peter Quinones

Peter Quinones: Let’s start with some background. Where are you from, Kelley? Kelley Jones: I was born in Sacramento and have lived my whole life in California’s capitol. I’ve never had the desire to leave Sacramento. Pretty boring. I’ve traveled a lot, but that only made me like it here more. I really began to appreciate the area. It’s not like I’ll never leave; it’s just that traveling gives you something to compare, and you realize it isn’t bad here. We’re close enough to everything and yet far enough from everything. It’s a good place to grow up. Peter: Were you an only child? Kelley: No, I have an older brother and he’s probably the one who got me into comics, because he had a class in junior high, and if you were done with your work, the teacher would let you read what you want. And, in this class, they had an old box of mostly old Marvel comics, old back then so major collector’s items now. For whatever reason, they didn’t want them anymore, and they

told him to take them home. He wasn’t really into comics, though, so he threw the box into my room and I fell in love at that moment. Peter: Is this when you first picked up a pencil? Kelley: No. I was always drawing something. Even when I was really, really little, they said I was always drawing, so I don’t really know how old I was. The things I remember drawing were telephone poles (who knows why) and then dinosaurs and Frankenstein all the time. Peter: Dinosaurs seems to be a common theme with comic book artists. Kelley: I guess. For me, it’s probably because my dad took to me to go see those kinds of movies as a kid. He liked those movies, so I saw Ray Harryhausen films, like Valley of the Gwangi, When Dinosaurs Ruled the Earth, One Million Years B.C. Peter: With Raquel Welch…

Top inset: Kelley Jones Batman illustration. Above inset: Fifteen-year-old burgeoning artist Kelley Jones at his brand-new drawing table in a photo from 1977. 34

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We were working on our stuff, too, but Kelley seemed to have more confidence in his skills. He had a knack for drawing, and a single-mindedness and sureness about his craft. He started showing his stuff to editors and other professionals, and the feedback was becoming more praise than pointers. And somehow, that helped us elevate our skills. All of us eventually broke into comics or video games. I was the only writer in the group, and I would give them my chapters-in-progress. Jim Sinclair, Kelley’s best friend, had a long run as the primary inker/finisher on Sam Kieth’s The Maxx. Glenn Johnson took one of my chapters about a royal artist and presented me with four beautifully drawn pages and became my first published comic (Against Blackshard 3-D). I saw those pages at Kelley’s house, which was the nexus, the dry pub gathering place of the group. My first article sales were interviews with Kelley for Comics Scene, Comics Interview, and Amazing Heroes (remember those? If you do, you are showing your gray-haired age.) And Kelley, Jim, and I were co-creators of TerraFormers (Wonder Color Comics, 1986), a big robot sci-fi comic where we spent hours spit-balling ideas, and where I watched in amazement as Kelley penciled awesome pages, and then again when Jim applied his gorgeous inks. And these lead to other connections and friendships with artists in the area, such as Ron Lim. Oh, it was an exciting and splendid time. So maybe now you can imagine my excitement and joy in interviewing Kelley once again, three decades later. We got together in October and November of 2015, as he was working

But then he quit, walked away, and that’s why people don’t remember him probably. And that seems a shame. Peter: Seems there’s a resurgence of interest in Wally Wood. Kelley: Yeah, because they put out that great artist edition of his stuff. For many years, I would say Wally Wood is a huge influence. And people would say, “Wally who?” That is distressing. I don’t have a favorite Wood period because he was always good. But he was working with Jack Davis, Frazetta, Williamson, Torres, Kamen, and he was the best one. And they were saying, “That guy’s the best one.” When the others were taking two months to do their things, Wood was bringing them in every few weeks. I still look at his stuff and wonder at what he did. He was great at putting a lot in, when he would finish a page, then go back and add more. But he also took out a lot. He was a master of light. He knew what didn’t need to be there. He textured things. Right now, comics are all shiny to me, but Wood could do trees, he could do water, any texture. We overuse the word “genius,” but he was a genius. Peter: Thoughts on John Buscema? Kelley: If there was a guy whose talent I could acquire, it would be his, because he could draw anything, at any time. I had the good fortune to spend a day with him, and he could just draw, flat-out draw. He didn’t need his… what is it in fantasy books who are adept? You know, a box of stuff that an amateur magician needs to his thing. Well, John was a master, he could move his hands and perform miracles. If you see his work with Don Heck as his inker, it is unbelievable. They would do these little horror stories, harking back to the old 1950s’ stuff. Nobody saw those stories then, but I did!. I was buying these reprint books, looking for that one little story by them. Don Heck was underrated, majorly underrated. He was terribly savaged, for whatever reasons. In fact, I just wrote an intro for a book on Don Heck’s horror work in the ’50s. I’m amazed to see how nasty the comments could be, for no reason, just to be sadistic. For certainly, if we’re going to take artists to task, there’s a long list before you get to Heck. Peter: He’s all over early Marvel. Kelley: Right, and clearly there was Kirby and Ditko, but there was also Heck, inventor of Iron Man, Hawkeye, Black Widow… He held “Thor” together with Kirby in those early years. Some of the classic “Thor” stories are drawn by Heck. And he invented characters for that, too. Stan Lee went to him and said, “You have to come over and work with us.” And he did. There’s so much really great work he did that stands the test of time. His “Iron Man,” especially in Tales of Suspense, is remarkable. Peter: Storytelling-wise? Kelley: Everything. He was a terrific penciler, a great storyteller, good at hitting all the beats. A fabulous, all-around finished artist. If he inked his own work, it was tremendous. He could do everything. If it was spy genre, horror, Western… he could do it. In those days, I know you had to, but he stood out. And, later on, when he went to DC, well, I didn’t know he had health issues, all the things going on with his life. I just remember picking up Batman Family because of the cool stories he was doing. It was one of the reasons to get it. So I didn’t understand when I read things like: “Why is he working? He’s the worst artist ever.” Really? Because I can think of 25 artists right now that I avoid like the plague, that they are telling me are great. But Heck is an artist I can still look at. And what a class act! He never responded, he just kept doing his thing. You don’t have to when you invent Iron Man and half of the Avengers. Peter: Of course, back then, the artists didn’t really get the credit. The fans didn’t know. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2017 • #14

Kelley: It isn’t what it is now, but for us who do it, we knew who everyone was. I’ve never believed in eating our own. It’s a hard job. First you have to think, spend all day realizing something and not repeat yourself. And then you have to make a deadline that is usually unreasonable. And no one is going to read that book and say, “I’m going to give him extra credit because he penciled and inked it in three-and-a-half weeks,” right? Peter: Right. Kelley: When it’s an incredible job, they should acknowledge that. Old Marvel did. Old Marvel would say this guy did this great job. Bang. And they would protect their artists and their writers that way. Now, the end result is all that matters. And it’s been bad for comics, because you have guys who should know better, taking months and months to do a book, miss deadlines, and they aren’t exercising that muscle on them. Look: fear is a great motivator. Peter: And hunger. Kelley: And that. And out of that comes wonderful things. These miracles come out of those desperate hours that I

This page: For editor Barbara Kessel, writer Mike Baron and penciler Kelley Jones (with inker Tony DeZuñiga) produced the Deadman serial for Action Comics Weekly. Top is Kelley’s photocopy of his pencils. Inset left is Esteban Maroto’s cover for Action #619 [Sept. 27, ’88] 41

Above: As described The MLJ Companion, in the late ’80s, Archie Comics developed a mature comics line called Spectrum, with writer Len Wein and artist Kelley Jones producing The Hangman. Due to bad publicity, the entire line was scrapped and artwork shelved.

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Kelley: It did. Comic book art is reduced so small. I like the eyeball perspective. I like the organic-ness of it. I like that there’s drawing going on. I like to physically draw my stuff just a little bit out and follow perspective. I can eyeball it pretty good. When it’s that small, it’s foreshortening. I figured it had to be small enough in case you had to get it around cars. I mean, I’m thinking like that and I went and found old shots of guys like Barney Oldfield in their Formula Ones from a long time ago and I thought that would be cool. Whether it’s cool or not is debatable, but I loved doing it and I always figured Batman was a guy who maybe two wheels touch the ground when he’s driving, y’know? There’s a lot of impracticality with a car where you have to get out of it and go do something. Someone may steal it, stuff like that. So I made it as wonky as I could so if they stole it, it would be really obvious. I don’t know. It’s just silly stuff.

Peter: Of the Batman movies then, which one would fit closest to your vision? Kelley: Probably the first two Tim Burton movies that came out. Later on, they asked if I would draw and design and I knew they were using a lot of the comics. But they did that a lot. They did that with the Mr. Freeze one, which they took that design and used it. It didn’t look like anything I’d done. So I know they’re looking at a lot of guys, but when it came out, I went, “The weird cape and the long ears?” There were certain things I just went, “That’s really cool!” I don’t know if they got it from me, but we were on the same page. I loved it because with the sound off, it looked like a Batman movie. Peter: Are there any other characters that you haven’t drawn yet but would like to? Kelley: God, there are tons! I always wanted to do Superman. I always would kill to do Superman, but that ain’t never gonna happen, though I know theres a sigh of relief that hasn’t happened!… The Spectre… The Demon… I love Doctor Fate. I love Thor (not the new one, but the classic Kirby one!), whether he’s on the streets of New York or off in the furthest galaxy fighting a cosmic menace. I love that range! There’s a lot of stuff I could do. Peter: About your Batman… Gothic, haunted, skulls everywhere. How did that begin? Kelley: Red Rain started it. That came out of Deadman, which had gotten me noticed. Well, around that time, [editor] Archie Goodwin had me do a fill-in cover for Detective Comics. Then I went on to do Sandman. Malcolm Jones was inking me on that and he was working with Doug Moench on another book. And he said, “Doug would like to know if you’d do a Batman story with him.” And Doug, was, well… Doug. So that was a huge moment for me, where someone who had read and followed my work… well, you disassociate yourself from that moment, because I’m not really part of that club. Even though I knew what I was starting to build, I was not part of that club. And, as good as Mike Baron was, he was my generation. Doug Moench, to me, was from that period where you are a fan, you’re collecting, you are starting to know names, so it was very intimidating. Of course, I had to say yes and Malcolm gave Doug my phone number. And he called, and said, “I have this idea, I like what you are doing. I enjoyed Deadman. Would you have an interest in this Batman story I’ve been thinking about?” I said, “Absolutely!” Peter: That’s what you say when Mr. Doug “Master of Kung Fu” Moench is

what the copyrights are on these things.” I said, “Well, all of ’em have been dead for 700 years!” Right? They’re woodcuts and prints. So I had to show them where I was getting that material. So they were afraid that it was somebody else’s art and I said, “No. It’s Albrecht Dürer or some unknown guy from the 13th century in outer Germany.” So, once I showed ’em what that was, they said, “Yeah, you can do that.” It became so much of a nightmare that I wouldn’t do it again. Peter: [Laughs] It adds a certain flavor to it. Especially since this particular issue is a little too clean! Kelley: Well, there you have it. This new style of printing. Everyone was trying to overcompensate for this new style — this Baxter printing or whatever you would call it — of printing. You didn’t know what you were going to get. And they were going from plate printing to digital printing so you really didn’t know unless somebody was there looking at it. You didn’t know what you were going to get. We were afraid of everything closing up. That’s what was going on. So you had to build in for potential production problems until it was all worked out. Because if you look at the early ones, those weren’t the issue. The plate printing and colorists per book. I mean, everything’s working the way you know. Later on, though, I was looking at books and having other artists call me just freaking out! They would say I had nothing to complain about, but I was able to see what their problems were and try to avoid them. My style would lend itself more to adapting to that as opposed to someone who’s very… less lighting, less rendering, that kind of stuff. I could get… well, if it’s gonna get that way, I’ll darken it up! If it’ll get that way,

This page: Before being recruited as the monthly artist on Batman, Kelley Jones was the cover artist during the “Knightfall” era of the early 1990s, and he produced the iconic “broken bat” image (below) of Bane fracturing the back of the Darknight Detective (Batman #497, late July ’93). Above is his Detective Comics #651 [early Oct. ’92] cover.

man, you know? In my head, I thought, “I have got to get the assignment!” So, when Bloodstorm came to an end, that’s when Denny O’Neil asked me, “Would you want to do the regular series?” And that took over for the next three years. Peter: Staying with the vampire Batman, different colorist on the third one, Crimson Mist? Kelley: Well, Les had switched from how he colored books to a pretty different style. Also, he had gotten some job offers to work for a video game company and he was teaching painting. He’s a painter. The good thing was, working with him, I never gave him color notes, other than “night” or “day,” if it wasn’t clear. He did his thing and I gave him as much leeway as I did with John on the inks. “Do what it takes.” I think he had told me once breaking in to comics he got used to getting a lot of leeway. But he had these other opportunities and he moved on. Peter: Crimson Mist doesn’t seem as moody. The colors are… Kelley: Well, it’s a different colorist. And you have to realize, they also switched techniques of printing. They went from newsprint four-color to the new computer laser stuff on slick paper, which was a shock for a lot of people. When I first saw it, it was in the regular pages of Batman so I went from the newsprint Batman to this slick stuff. It threw a lot of people because it simplified things immediately. You couldn’t watercolor anymore. They didn’t blue line, so there are fundamental changes in how you do it. If you look at coloring at that time, a lot of books are very monochromatic, just homogenized-looking coloring. Gregory Wright actually put in a lot of different colors. And that was the direction I said to go; back-lighting, two-tone coloring, a lot of stuff like that — stuff like you’d see in Hammer films. I still give that advice to any colorist I work with, to this day! Keep it bright and simple, and black is a color. How many colors do they have now? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? I always go, “Y’know, how about eight colors?” Very simple. Peter: In Crimson Mist, you have all these marginal illustrations. Kelley: Oh, the little graphics? I saw it as infection and in the medieval sense Gotham was becoming this… It was weird place before and it’s really weird now. Essentially, it’s been reduced to this medieval town with a plague. There was a big to-do on that because I had gotten these all from these old books with prints and whatnot, and at first DC said, “You can’t reproduce these because we don’t know

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who is perceived as this playboy ne’er-do-well. There are the many different personalities that make the one person. Doug was a big anti-drug guy, so his view was the MKUltra view of it, right? He wasn’t like, “Drugs are evil, kids.” He wasn’t that. This was to warn about the danger of what you could unleash. Peter: Did you and Doug co-plot on these books? Kelley: We would talk about all of them on the phone. Clearly they were Doug’s stories, but he’d say, “Who do you want to draw? Who do you want to do? What do you think?” He was going to use Killer Croc, so I said I had always wanted to do Swamp Thing. That worked together, right? I always wanted to do The Scarecrow. I loved The Scarecrow. I loved that he was a psychiatrist, you know? You could do a lot with that! So we’d go from there. But a lot of it was just talking on the phone, mostly to discuss moments—if this incident should happen or this complication should happen or this scene should happen. And then you weave them together, you know, and that’s what he would do. You discuss it, but he would still always throw me a surprise! Peter: So, out of all the Batman villains, which is the one that Batman should be most scared of? Is it The Joker? Kelley: The Joker he’s not afraid of. The Joker’s probably the least fearsome to him. I would say, to me, it had always been potentially The Scarecrow because he was a psychiatrist and he had that fear gas. You yourself would be your own antagonist, but I don’t really know that he’s scared of anyone. I think he is frustrated that it just keeps going on. I mean, if I were Batman, I’d be like Tony Soprano, and my enemies would be disappearing. But he doesn’t do that, so… The things that make Batman work for me are so multi-faceted. The city is a character to me. The city will be whatever I want it to be at that time, so it can look like Manhattan or it can look like Prague. It depends. And that’s to get across different districts in this very old city. That part I really like. Nice little pieces. It’s just that I love the comic book nature of a comic, which I don’t know why we get away from. But you know what? I got so much reaction to those things, that I found that if I wasn’t doing it, I would get a lot of mail, “You’re not doing that!” Peter: Your Mr. Freeze design [#525]. His jaw is basically always… Kelley: He’s just basically always up-lit and whatever’s in there. But it’s creepy to me, and I think freezing people is creepy to me! Peter: Yeah, because they shatter into little pieces. Kelley: Yeah, they shatter! It seems to me he’s almost alien because he can’t live in our atmosphere, or can’t live in our temperature, I should say. But they disliked the character of Mr. Freeze quite a bit in the office in those days, so to use him… Initially, it came up when Doug said, “Who do you wanna do?” I said, “Mr. Freeze.” Just that idea of him freezing cold does something to me. What I didn’t know, because I was a latecomer to all this… was that Denny O’Neil’s been there since 1968 and he just had this aversion to the character. No one does a Mr. Freeze story anymore because of the TV show or whatever. I didn’t know any of this. So Doug had wanted to do a three-parter or a two-parter (I forget) and the book now was doing very well on its own. We weren’t connected to anything. Sales had gone up and it was doing good and COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2017 • #14

I had done a lot for them! And I wasn’t goin’ in there sayin’, “Aw, man, I really wanted to do it.” So anyway, I said, “Okay, no Mr. Freeze.” I didn’t know how they felt about him. I really wanted to do it. So Denny said, “How about one issue? I’ll let you do it for one issue, and that’s it. You don’t get to ask for the character anymore and I don’t want to have to deal with this anymore, all right?” I said, “Look. I appreciate it.” He then called Doug and Doug said fine. And I love the idea of doing one-and-dones anyway. Single issues which are not connected to anything, I think, are good for readers. It’s good for creators. It’s just good. Short stories you really have to hone it and get your point across. Luckily, I got to do some of those. So he wrote the Freeze issue and it was a big, big

This page: As mentioned, Kelley Jones was a regular cover artist on the Batman family of titles during the early 1990s, receiving the assignment from editor Dennis O’Neil, who saw in the young talent the makings of a legendary Batman artist. Above is the original art for Detective Comics #663 [early July 1993] and inset is the printed version.

when you don’t feel like it and it will quit being a thing of moods.” Now, I didn’t say anything like, “I work in moods,” or anything like that, but he made sense to me. It made a lot of sense. He said, “You’re going to find a lot of guys can’t do it. There’ll be the guys who are really good but they can’t produce.” And he says, “And, in the publishing world, who needs ’em?” Peter: Right. Kelley: He says they would be useless. On the other hand, if you just blast it out and it doesn’t do anything, that’s also useless. But there’s this middle ground. The only way he knew to do it was this kind of crucible you had to go through. And that stuck with me when Denny O’Neil called and asked, “Would you like to do Batman?” Of course, I’m used to doing a graphic novel or a mini-series. That’s easy! Right? What Doug Wildey said kind of took the wind out of my sails and it changed how I looked at other artists, you know? Now, I’ve always admired Kirby, Wood, and Ditko. I always admired them. I still do! They’re still my favorites, but I never thought of them in that context. It forces you to rely on your imagination. So, when that offer came from Denny, I took it. I know Doug Moench was not happy about that decision. A number of people were not happy about that decision, because they wanted me to keep doing these special projects and stuff. At that time, it was a big deal to do a prestige mini-series or a hardcover one-shot. At that point though, when it was all said and done, I surpassed something like 36 issues in 36 months. And it was the best thing I ever did. It was boot camp for horror. Being in some kind of service. There were times when I couldn’t tell if I liked what I was doing or not. Peter: Were these full-script? Kelley: Some parts would be and some parts would be paragraphs. It would depend on what mood Doug was in or what point he was trying to make. He was always very visual but left it up to me what I wanted to do, so it was a great working relationship. So I just hit it and came out of that with 36 issues in 36 months. Barring DC and Diamond moving stuff around the schedule, we were always working about three or four months ahead. That was due partly to Doug Wildey and partly to Marvel in the old days. When I first came to Marvel, they had a great teaching tool: draw a page a day. Even if you can’t finish it, draw as much as you can, go on to the next, and by the end of the IF YOU THISone PREVIEW, week, you’ve got five pages. When you ENJOYED do a page, pick CLICK THE LINK TO ORDER THIS panel and make it really great. Get the others done. If you ISSUE PRINT OR DIGITAL can do that for an entire story, you’llINhave 22 great panels! FORMAT! When you hear that…! At first you say, “Well, one panel per page. That’s good! That sounds easy!” But think of a comic book and doing a Peter: Any particular challenges in that book? monthly. You’re lucky if you get three or four panels, really. Kelley: Making the deadline. Because, the scenes with And I knew there are great artists so I would think that magic in them, I wanted them set up for a different look. those things affected me — what Marvel had said and Unfortunately, that took a long time to execute. And each Wildey about ten years later saying what he said, and then issue was 30 or 40 pages. It was a lot of work per issue. So the imagination thing. I always had an idea where I knew I it was a tight deadline, but it came out good because the couldn’t draw as well as Frank Frazetta or Jack Kirby or any story was so interesting to me. of those guys, but what I could do is come up with an idea that would be uniquely mine. Such as on Deadman, making Peter: Is there anything you won’t draw? Like an Archie story, or… him a skeleton. Because that was great cheek. He was Kelley: I did an Archie cover, with Predator on it. I love interesting then all the time. [laughs] animation style. I can do that really easily. I did a pin-up Peter: Your Conan-related material, Thoth-amon… how once for Batman Adventures and it was one of my favorite did that happen? COMIC BOOK CREATOR #14 Comprehensive KELLEY JONES interview, years as I ever did. Of course, done how I see it. I’m a fanatKelley: Kurt Busiek and Len Wein were working on from earlythings Marvel inker to present-day greatness at DC depicting BATMAN, ical Chuck Jones fan. I love his stuff because it’s violent, something, and I was finishing up a Steve Niles story for of rarely-seen DEADMAN, and SWAMP THING (chockful artweird, and all from that really great period of Warner Bros. I work)! Plus WILL MURRAY examines the nefarious legacy of BatDark Horse, and they liked my stuff. I was thinking of doing love all those guys. man co-creator BOB KANE in an investigation into tragic ghosts creator-owned stuff for Darkand Horse, so they asked and, rapacious greed. We also look at RAINA TELGEMEIER and Tex Avery? Peter: though it was another tight deadline, the story was really her magnificent army of devotees, and more! good and a lot of fun. It wasn’t about(84-page Conan, but I likemagazine) the $8.95Kelley: Yeah, of course. I always thought that Calvin and FULL-COLOR Hobbes came out of the Ralph cartoons. (Digital Edition) $3.95 villain’s backstory. I’m always attracted to the thing around http://twomorrows.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=98_132&products_id=1249 Peter: I can see that. the hero’s world. Because you see what makes them, and Kelley: In fact, a lot of my art gestures, expressions, come it changes how you look at that character. And, just for from animation. It’s visual and it just works. At that time, I drawing sake, that’s interesting to me. There’s some pity was so into my artistic universe and thoroughly enjoying involved in the story. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2017 • #14

Above: Kelley Jones wrote and drew the Zombie World: Eat Your Heart Out one-shot, in ’98.