THUNDER Agents Companion by TwoMorrows Publishing

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T WO M O RROWS

PUBLISH ING

RALEI GH , NO RTH

CAROLINA

COVER & FRON T I SP IE C E B Y JERRY ORDWAY

THE

COMPANION

EDITED & DESIGNED BY JON B. COOKE

THE

COMPANION

Dedicated to Neal Cino & Jerry Bails Edited & Designed by Jon B. Cooke Published by TwoMorrows Publishing T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents ©2005 John A. Carbonaro Used With Permission September 2005 First Printing ISBN #1-893905-43-8 (pbk with flaps) Front cover art by Jerry Ordway Coloring by Tom Ziuko Portions of this book originally appeared in the magazine Comic Book Artist Vol. 1, #14 (July 2001), edited by Jon B. Cooke. Transcriptions by Jon B. Cooke, Sam Gafford, Jon B. Knutson, Aaron Kashtan, Brian K. Morris. Proofreading by John Morrow, Eric Nolen-Weathington, Richard Howell & Aaron Kashtan. Unless otherwise noted all material ©2005 Jon B. Cooke.

Contributions by and special thanks to: JOHN A. CARBONARO Jerry Ordway Dan Adkins, Eric Agena, Jim Amash, Murphy Anderson, Marc Andreyko, Terry Austin, Dick Ayers, John Backderf, Mike W. Barr, Vinnie Bartilucci, Pat Bastienne, Blake Bell, Will Blyberg, Charlie Boatner, Brian C. Boerner, Paul Bonanno, John R. Borkowski, Frank Borth, Jerry K. Boyd, William Bracero, Gary Brown, Len Brown, Kurt Busiek, Nick Caputo, Dewey Cassell, Dave & Paty Cockrum, Steve Cohen, Woody Compton, Dale Crain, John M. Crowley, Paris Cullins, Dan DeCarlo, Rich DeDominicis, Alan Davis, Dan DiDio, Buzz Dixon, Shel Dorf, Dave Elliott, Steve Englehart, Mike Esposito, Mark Evanier, Michael Feldman, Ron Frantz, George Freeman, Mike Friedrich, Mike Gartland, Jeff Gelb, Dave Gibbons, Keith Giffen, Michael T. Gilbert, Dick Giordano, Al Gordon, Ron Goulart, Jackson Guice, Paul Gulacy, James Guthrie, John Harrison, Dean Haspiel, Dan Herman, Christopher Irving, Larry Ivie, Rich Johnston, J.G. Jones, Marc H. Kardell, George Khoury, James Kochalka, David Anthony Kraft, Alan Kupperberg, Batton Lash, Bob Layton, Garry Leach, Dave Lemieux, James E. Lyle, Lou Manna, Angel Marcana, Louis Morra, John Morrow, Lou Mougin, Lee Nail, Paul Neary, Will Nyberg, Bill Pearson, Sal Quartuccio, Jordan Raskin, Gene Reed, Bill Reinhold, David A. Roach, Michael Sawyer, Bill Schelly, Pat Sekowsky, Kelly Shane, Lou Silverstone, Steve Skeates, Robert J. Sodaro, J. David Spurlock, Jane L. Stallman, Kevin Stawieray, Jay Stephens, Bhob Stewart, Scott Stewart, Andrew Steven, Chic Stone, Hugh Surratt, Mark Texeira, Dann Thomas, Roy Thomas, Steve Thompson, Mike Tiefenbacher, Alex Toth, George Tuska, Bill Vallely, Marv Wolfman, John Workman, cat yronwode, Mike Zeck, Dwight Jon Zimmerman, Tom Ziuko, and Jeff Zornow

Opposite page: Dynamo pin-up by Wallace Wood. From Heroes, Inc. #2.

1984-86: THE DELUXE COMICS YEARS Dave Cockrum, Steve Englehart, Keith Giffen, Jerry Ordway, George Pérez, David M. Singer, Dann Thomas and John Workman ..................125 Jim Shooter on T-Agents Ownership ................147

T.H.U.N.D.E.R. AGENTS: CONTEXT & CHARACTERS T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Road!: Those Timeless, Titanic Agents of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. ..................7 Distant Thunder: James Bond 007 & Marvel Comics Setting the Stage for T-Agents ............................................8

1987: THE SOLSON INTERLUDE John Carbonaro, James E. Lyle and Michael Sawyer ....................................148

Those Halcyon Days of the 1960s’ High Camp Heroes ........12 T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents 101: In-Depth History of the Heroes of Tower..............................14

1987: BLUNDERS OVER T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Boris the Bear & Thunder Bunny....................156

Death of a Hero: Demise of the Man Called Menthor............24

1995: PENTHOUSE COMIX “T&A”GENTS Terry Austin, Paul Gulacy, John Carbonaro and Jordan Raskin ................158

Days of Blunder: Mocking the Men from T.H.U.N.D.E.R.........26 THE T.H.U.N.D.E.R. FILES The Curious Background of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents ................30

1995: T.H.U.N.D.E.R. AGENTS ANIMATED? Dan DiDio and Marv Wolfman........................162

The Ultimate T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents Checklist ......................31

2003: THE “ALMOST” NEW T-AGENTS: Marc Andreyko & J.G. Jones ........................164 DC’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Hype..............................165 Death of the DC New T-Agents’ Deal ..............167

T.H.U.N.D.E.R. ARTISTS SECTION T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents by Dave Gibbons..............................41 1965-69: THE TOWER COMICS YEARS A Man Called Wood: The Masterful Artist Behind T.H.U.N.D.E.R. ........42

2005: JOHN CARBONARO’S T-AGENTS ........168 Elvira and The W.I.N.D.Y. Agents ....................171

Witzend and Mr. Wallace Allan Wood ..............45

John A. Carbonaro v. David M. Singer A Look at Their Thunderous Legal Battle ..........................174

Jack Abel, Dan Adkins, Dick Ayers, Len Brown, Reed Crandall, Steve Ditko, Mike Esposito, Frank Giacoia, John Giunta, Larry Ivie, Gil Kane, Sheldon Moldoff, Joe Orlando, Bill Pearson, Paul Reinman, Samm Schwartz, Mike Sekowsky,Harry Shorten, Lou Silverstone, Steve Skeates, Manny Stallman, Chic Stone, Sal Trapani, George Tuska, Ogden Whitney and Al Williamson....................46

The Curse of T.H.U.N.D.E.R.? The Helter Skelter Ride of Wood’s Heroes ........................176 ADVENTURES IN THE THUNDERVERSE Iron Maiden by Garry Leach ..........................................178 T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents by Alan Davis ................................179 Post-Modern T-Agents Art by Jay Stephens, John Backderf, James Kochalka, and Dean Haspiel..................................180

The Secret Origin of Tower Comics....................85

“Dreams Past” Art by Garry Leach ..................................182

1981-84: THE JC COMICS YEARS Will Blyberg, Charlie Boatner, Paul Bonanno, John Carbonaro, Lou Manna, John Workman ..109

“Cold Warriors Never Die!” Art by Paul Gulacy & Terry Austin Script by George Caragonne & Tom Thornton ....................189 “Prologue to Zero” Art by Paul Gulacy & Terry Austin Script by George Caragonne & Tom Thornton ....................216

1983: A NOBLE EXPERIMENT Justice Machine Annual #1 and T.H.U.N.D.E.R. John Carbonaro and Bill Reinhold ..................124

Gratitude: For the Love of T.H.U.N.D.E.R.! ........................224

Upper right: Cover detail from T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #12. Art by Wallace Wood. Right: Altered panel from “Superdupermann,” Mad #4. Layouts by Harvey Kurtzman, inks by Wallace Wood. ©2005 the Estate of William M. Gaines.

Introduction by Jon B. Cooke C’mon, admit it! Never mind the Marvel Age or DC’s era of the daring and the different! The comic book exploits of Dynamo, NoMan, Lightning, Raven, Menthor, Weed, Kitten, and all the other operatives of The Higher United Nations Defense Enforcement Reserves—that’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents, natch!—were the kinchiest group of super-heroes to ever grace a four-color page in the funny books of the 1960s, and, for that matter, they just might be the most fab gathering of costumed spies of that swingin’ decade or any period since! And ya gotta confess that what made those characters so bitchin’ was not only the clever melding of the spy and super-hero genres, but also the high quality of the art and writing, right? Hey, if that wasn’t true, why, pray tell, are you standing there in the bookstore, checking out this definitive guide to those swell comics? (Nope, don’t even think of blaming it on Menthor mind-control!) But if, by odd circumstance, this volume does find its way into the hands of the uninitiated, we promise to all lucky neophytes that you’re in for a treat. And, fear not, longtime Dynamo aficionados and lovers of Wallace Wood’s art out there! This tome is guaranteed to knocken your sockens off, as well! While those true fans of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. may detect that some portions of the enclosed first appeared in the July 2001 issue of Comic Book Artist magazine (Vol. 1, #14), edited by yours truly, rest assured there’s lots new stuff herein, including previously unpublished T-Agents tales, chats with creators of the post-1960s resurrections, a significantly expanded checklist (now with listings of the post-Tower books), exclusive features a’plenty (including looks at aborted T-Agents comics and the never-produced animated series, as well as sidebars on T.H.U.N.D.E.R.-related stuff!), not to mention scads of rarely-seen artwork. Relax… this is THUNDER? The the ultimate compendium, fully authorized by owner VAS IST DAS HIGHER of the T-Agents franchise, Mr. John Carbonaro (who THUNDER? United helped out us out immeasurably, not only by generNations ously giving permission to present this book-length Defense examination, but also in opening up his extensive Enforcement Reserves files of T-Agent curiosities!). Thanks, J.C.! So whether a newbie to the super-spy mythos or a veteran fan of Woody and his crew of brilliant artists and writers, be warned and be quick, brave reader: Find a safe spot, strap yourself in, and stay alert for a maelstrom of adventure, the culmination of four decades-worth of breathless excitement!… Wait! Can you sense it? The gathering storm clouds approaching on the horizon, that electricity coming ever closer? The advancing tempest is your cue, brave reader, to summon courage, turn the page, and partake in a cataclysmic ride, one that spans four decades, taking you from the subterranean depths of planet Earth and up into the intergalactic void of space! Prepare, fellow armchair adventurer, for the onslaught of… T.H.U.N.D.E.R.! 7

T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Road!

Those Timeless, Titanic Agents of T.H.U.N.D.E.R.

In examining the appeal of Wallace Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents, we need to not only look back at the man and his team of exceptional co-creators (as well as those artists and writers who helmed the subsequent revivals) but also to give consideration to that long-gone era which gave birth to the unforgettable heroes in question. We need to remember that Dynamo and his crew came from the Super-Decade, those years of promise tinged with despair. The iconic super-President, John F. Kennedy, opened the 1960s with an invigorating hope (however real or delusional), one shared by much of the country, to grow beyond the fears of the Atomic Age and aspire to better the nation. Super-spies, super-rock ’n’ roll groups, super-cars, super-drugs, and— of course—super-heroes, all became crazes with kiddie consumers in those days, each category cultivating the same pattern of emerging as hot trends, followed by frenzied Baby Boomer consumption, and just as quickly boring artifacts of last week’s mania. Hot today, not tomorrow. Try as they might, comics publishers often could not recognize trends fast enough to entice America’s increasing fickle youngsters in the ’60s. Given the considerable lagtime between a title’s conceptualization and its final appearance on the newsstand, hot genres were increasingly difficult to anticipate. Still, history shows, once the “Next Big Thing” was correctly identified, the entire industry scrambled to jump on board, flooding the racks with knock-offs— whether in the ’30s (comic strip reprints and costumed characters), ’40s (kid groups, teenage humor, crime, and romance), or ’50s (Westerns, space opera, horror, and satire)—and thus everyone (in theory) would share in the profits, though just as quickly cooling off whatever novelty du jour by over-saturation. And that thinking—”Who needs originality when one could more easily just rip something off?”—remained a mantra among all comics publishers going into the turbulent ’60s. But, as Bob Dylan warned, the times they were a’changin’. For all the hoopla given by fans over the rise of Marvel’s self-conscious super-heroes of the ’60s, the entire comics industry was in desperate shape during those years, severely wounded by the notoriety heaped on by Dr. Fredric Wertham and his fellow anti-comics crusaders in the previous decade. Readership continued to plummet as TV and film offered increasingly fantastic entertainment (once the exclusive purview of funny books). Entrepreneurs and savvy manufacturers competed wildly, vying for the pocket money of every American kid. And, as was their modus operandi, instead of innovating—trying something new and refreshing to salvage the ailing business—the comics people did what they did best: They copied one of their rivals. It would be a mistake to assume that the Great Super-Hero 8

Distant Thunder!

James Bond 007 and Setting the Stage for

the Marvel Age of Comics: the Agents of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Revival of the 1960s was singularly a result of the Batmania craze of ’66, though the William Dozier-produced, twice-a-week TV sensation was a huge factor in the onslaughting barrage of “high-camp heroes” that flooded the marketplace. More properly, credit—or blame, if you prefer—needs to be given to Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, and all the Marvel Bullpenners who perhaps brought comic book entertainment to a new level of self-awareness and pure joie de vive. As beautifully delineated as DC’s super-hero and war books were, they were humdrum compared to the sheer exuberance of the Marvel Age of Comics. And the kids responded by paying their 12¢ to Martin Goodman’s House of Ideas. But—funny thing this—Marvel’s revolutionary approach to super-heroes, as envied and copied as it would become by the mid-’60s, was itself the result of a Goodman directive to duplicate their main competitor’s hot new title. Oft-told legend has it that during a golf game with DC Comics publisher Harry Donenfeld, Goodman took note of his rival’s boasting. Seems DC’s latest book, one teaming up Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and other DC super-characters, is getting some action on the newsstand… how ’bout that, eh? Well, Goodman, whose own company had a considerable cast of once formidable, now dormant costumed-characters, went back to the office, hung up his golf cap, and gave cousin-in-law and editor-in-chief Stan Lee instructions to put together a Marvel Comics super-hero team to compete with Harry’s Justice League of America. But, instead of raiding the house inventory and forming a super-squad with Captain America, the Sub-Mariner, and Marvel Boy, Stan—with the essential input of his frequent collaborator, the genius artist also known as “The King,” Jack Kirby—decided on a quartet of new characters… sorta. Throwing in a twist that this crime-fighting group was actually an extended family, Lee and Kirby ushered in The Fantastic Four, the first title of the publisher’s great second act, the Marvel Age of Comics. Still, as cool as Stan and Jack’s team of Mr. Fantastic, the Thing, Invisible Girl, and the Human Torch were, the new Marvel hero that most effectively captivated comic book readers was Stan and artist/co-creator Steve Ditko’s friendly neighborhood web-slinger, the Amazing Spider-Man. It was Peter Parker, the angstridden teen riddled with self-doubt, burdened with too much power and too much responsibility for such a tender age, who resonated with fans. In comparison, Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne were, well, corny with a capital “K” compared to the emerging relevance of Marvel’s anti-heroes. But we all know how DC cashed in on corny, right? The all-encompassing success of the Batman TV show, as over-the-top and hokey as all get-out, proved that there was plenty of money to be made in camp, and so with the Dynamic Duo and Spidey showing the way, a flood of costumed tights paraded across the stands, much of it pure drek (remember the short-lived Captain (“Let’s Split!”) Marvel?), but some titles held more than a hint of inspiration. (Interestingly, 1965’s most important innovator, publisher James Warren, of Famous Monsters of Filmland and Creepy fame, resisted the temptation to exploit the trend—at least in sequential form, if not in merchandising!) It was an ex-Bullpenner (albeit a member of Stan’s team for mere months) who gave Marvel real competition in the creativity department. 9

gun-toting playboy spies suddenly invaded nearly every aspect of culture. Celluloid knock-offs included a pair of Our Man Flint flicks, a Matt Helm movie trilogy, two Dr. Goldfoot comedies (melding espionage with the beach party genre), and even the animated feature, The Man Called Flintstone. But it was on television where the fad had the biggest impact. Shows sporting the Bond influence included I Spy, Secret Agent, Mission: Impossible, The Saint, Wild Wild West, Get Smart, and Saturday morning fare, such as Jonny Quest, Secret Squirrel, and Lancelot Link: Secret Chimp. And the most significant TV spy show of all was The Man from U.N.C.L.E. (a series that spawned The Girl from… spin-off), which popularized the novelty of adding clever acronyms to the fad. Sure, Bond fought agents of SPECTRE (the SPecial Executive for Counter-intelligence Terrorism Revenge and Extortion), but it was the heroes of the United Network Command of Law and Enforcement, in their battle against the villains of T.H.R.U.S.H. (the Technological Hierarchy for the Removal of Undesirables and Subjugation of Humanity) which inspired a plethora of letter combinations, including Derek Flint’s agency, ZOWIE (Zonal Organization for World Intelligence and Espionage). And, of course, comics jumped on the same aspect when cashing in. Marvel updated its howling sergeant of WWII with Nick Fury fighting baddies as an agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. (the Supreme Headquarters International Espionage Law-Enforcement Division). And so the joining of such trappings of the spy sensation—nifty acronyms, gadgets galore, sexy bad girls, and ruthless and shadowy worldwide conspiracies to combat—with the newly-invigorated costume crimefighter genre was a natural approach for the funny books to adopt, and the best of the lot were those adventures of the agents of The Higher United Nations Defense Enforcement Reserves. Now, let’s discuss the brilliant comic book creator responsible for Dynamo and Co., the head artist behind the artifacts, Mr. Wallace Wood:

Regardless of the legendary artist’s professed disdain for costumed characters, Wallace Wood, fresh from a brief but exceptionally memorable stint as artist and re-designer on Marvel’s Daredevil, accepted Tower Comics publisher Harry Shorten’s directive to create a totally-new super hero comics line with vigor and obvious enthusiasm. Melding the then-au currant James Bond 007 spy craze with the Marvel Method, Tower’s art director—and, importantly, the line’s de facto editor—gathered the best available artists (Reed Crandall, Gil Kane, George Tuska, Mike Sekowsky, neophyte Dan Adkins, Chic Stone, later Steve Ditko and Al Williamson, among others) to create the unforgettable T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. Woody’s comics could be grim (featuring the first-ever death of a leading super-hero!), funny (the antics of headliner Dynamo’s alter-ego, Len (ahem) Brown, still evoke a chuckle today), sexy (sometimes decidedly on this side of S&M, judging by the femme fatale to beat them all, the Iron Maiden), angst-ridden (every time Lightning ran at super-speed, he shaved minutes off his life), wonky (as we shouldn’t neglect Manny Stallman’s gloriously strange “Raven” strips), and just plain fun! All in all, they were a superb part of American comics in the ’60s and, for those willing to gamble an entire 25¢ for each bi-monthly issue (a hefty price, one usually reserved for the annuals of Marvel and DC!), Woody’s heroes would leave invaluable and lasting memories in many an American kid. Let’s delve for a moment on the other significant cultural influence, one outside of comics, that resulted in the development of the colorful team of superspies in question, the spy craze if the 1960s: If the youth culture of the mid-1960s was about anything, it was about manic obsession. Whether Bridget Bardo, The Beatles, boss rides, or bitchin’ waves, kids consumed fads in a big way. And few trends were as big as Bond… James Bond. Ian Fleming’s series of British spy novels depicting the violent exploits of espionage agent 007 (licensed to kill, natch), would lead to a killer cinematic and merchandising phenomenon that has been rarely matched in retail history. Spurred on by the incredible success of the third Bond film, Goldfinger, dozens of suave,

running a studio, with payrolls to meet and bills to pay? Too much attention paid to detail? Too much vital energy burned off in an obsessive pursuit of perfection? Just… too much EVERYTHING? Examining the myriad reasons behind the death of one of the greatest American comic book artists of all time—the physical, psychological, sociological, and environmental possibilities—do matter, but we shouldn’t neglect those aspects that made Wallace Wood a great artist: his work and his vision. So it is here, in this book, where we devote a good number of pages to minute (perhaps agonizingly over-wrought) attention to but a mere sliver of Woody’s body of work and the legacy he spawned with his T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. Much is focused on his output as the creative director of a fledgling comic book publisher, an outfit eager to simultaneously jump on the super-hero bandwagon and into the spy craze by securing the guidance of a man passionate about the art of comics and instilled with a love of the adventure genre. As creative head honcho, Woody recognized the brilliant work of his peers by hiring them, making good on a vow to make a line of cool characters appealing to readers who dug the cool stuff, just like he did. Because in turn, y’see, we—the older fans of Wallace Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents—realize today, as much as we suspected 40 years ago, that underneath that crusty, wearied, overworked breast beat the eternal heart of a child, ever wondrous and enthusiastic, one that always yearned for the ultimate victory of the heroes in their eternal quest to right wrongs and for good to always triumph over evil. The T-Agents appeal is certainly timeless, as evidenced by their periodic revivals over the years and by the current success of a series of pricey hardcover volumes. And subsequent artists and writers, many of the highest caliber, were inspired by the unforgettable quality of the original series, enough to jump at the chance and share their versions of Woody’s heroes. Born of the fleeting spy-craze of the ’60s, and of the great super-hero revival of days long past, somehow the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents endure. And, in our fanboy heart-ofhearts, we know why these super-powered characters have such resonance: Because they’ve aged well… in Wood.

Say what you will about Wallace Wood. You might puzzle over the curious choices he made during his long career as an artist not only in comics, but in magazine illustration, advertising—even pornography! —as well, decisions that seem to reveal a downright pathological aversion to success. Anyone with even a passing understanding of the real-life difficulties faced by comic book artists in those pre-independent, pre-profit-sharing days of mainstream funny books will admit that Woody’s unique style was as recognizable to the general U.S. public, as was the respective work of fellow sequential art geniuses, Jack Kirby and Carl Barks, peers who enjoyed the middle-class success afforded to very few at the industry’s creative end. Arguably, Woody could have parlayed his many achievements—as the quintessential science-fiction comic book artist, for instance, given his EC Comics and Mars Attacks! work, never mind the guy’s equally iconic humor material for Mad (magazine) and Mad(ison) Avenue—into a comfortably sedate, suburban lifestyle, one that exemplified the celebrated American Dream of the New Frontier. And even though Wallace did envy the status attained by former collaborators and bosses Stan Lee, Harvey Kurtzman, and Will Eisner, and even though he was a man of many schemes and innumerable dreams, hoping… yearning to carve out his own niche, whether it be as a publisher or by creating characters he alone would own and profit from, the artist proved, in the final analysis, to be his own worst enemy, ending his overworked, disease-ridden days by committing suicide. Comic book historians may long debate on whether Woody took his own life to end the physical pain he suffered, a man trapped in a body ravaged by being chained to the drawing board, one who commuted a self-inflicted life sentence to final rest, or whether it was the culmination of having his essence—figuratively and perhaps literally—sucked out of him by an abusive and exploitative industry, one all too used to ensnaring enthusiastic creators, working them to the bone, draining their fertile imaginations—the lifeblood of the business—and just as callously spitting ’em out when the flow of talent wanes, moving on to exploit the next poor, unwitting bastard. We can ponder endlessly on what—beyond a bullet to the brain—killed Wallace Wood. Was it too many cups of coffee? Too many allnighters spent working in service to his art? Too many cigarettes? Too many bottles of booze? Too many tight deadlines? Too many bouts of stress caused by the burden of 11

Those Halcyon Days of the

The Great Super-Hero Revival of mid-1960s American comic books was an era when the exploits of costumed adventurers flooded U.S. magazine shelves, a period rivaled only by the “Golden-Age” years following the 1938 debut of the character who single-handedly created the genre, Superman. Publishers, some old, some brand-new, were suddenly eager to catch the wave of renewed interest in masked crimefighters that swept the nation, a fad generated (perhaps ironically) by an instantaneous—and idiotic—smash-hit TV show, Batman.

And while Stan Lee and his Bullpen were achieving no small degree of success with the college crowd through Marvel’s unique take on capes, cowls ‘n’ secret identities, the camp-saturated approach of ABC’s twiceweekly, corny-as-all-get-out series starring the Dynamic Duo proved the one more usually imitated. Thus silly super-heroes prevailed on the airwaves and in the funny books between 1966 and ’67, albeit with some notable comicbook exceptions (though the—thankfully!—shortlived sit-coms Captain Nice and Mr. Terrific prove that broadcasters were apparently invulnerable to even the most moderately intelligent presentation). There were some well-intended and handsome titles: Former chroniclers of Captain Marvel—the “Shazam!” version—including legendary artist C.C. Beck, produced two issues of the charming and quaint Fatman, The Human Flying Saucer; his salad days as top

camp (kãmp) n. 1. An affectation or appreciation of manners and tastes commonly thought to be outlandish, vulgar, or banal. 2. Banality or artificiality, when appreciated for its humor. — adj. Having the qualities or style of camp. To act in an outlandishly or effeminate manner. [Origin obscure.] — camp’y adj. —American Heritage Dictionary.

1960s’ High Camp Heroes

comics writer behind him, Superman co-creator Jerry Siegel scribed an earnest run of Paul Reinman-drawn titles for the “Mighty Comics Group” (actually an Archie Comics imprint); and American Comics Group’s renowned editor/writer Richard Hughes joined with artist Chic Stone on some cute “Magicman” and “Nemesis” stories (behind spiffy Kurt Schaffenberger covers), but much of the Batman-era material looked rushed and usually suffered from weak concepts. A few examples: Venerable Dell Comics released a trio of Tony Tallarico-drawn titles in a ghastly attempt to fuse super-heroics with classic monster icons, Werewolf, Frankenstein, and Dracula; Fly-bynight publisher Myron Fass dumps four issues of his atrocious “Let’s Split!” version of Captain Marvel; and legendary editor/artist/writer Joe Simon helms a half-hearted attempt by Harvey Comics to cash in on the craze with its Thriller line (though Gil Kane, Al Williamson, and

Wallace Wood do manage to give us some smooth work among the rough). Crowded as the newsstand comic-book racks were between 1965 and ’67, so over-populated with all too many lame characters, there were a few stellar, if relatively short-lived, super-hero imprints that retain a lasting impression. Worthy of note is the Charlton Comics’ titles helmed by editor/artist Dick Giordano starring the “Action Heroes” crew, especially Steve Ditko’s Blue Beetle, Captain Atom, and The Question, and Pat Boyette’s Peacemaker. But, in the final analysis, of all the Marvel wannabes and DC pretenders, time will quite likely prove that the most memorable superhero comics from that hyper-kinetic era will be found in work produced by Wallace Wood and his talent crew of Tower comics’ contributors, in the pages of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents.

by Lou Mougin [This fine overview of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents and the Tower comics line appeared in slightly different form in The Comic Reader #197 back in 1982. Please note it contains some personal opinions some may not agree with—Ye Ed takes exception to Lou’s characterization of Manny Stallman’s delightfully bizarre artwork—but it is a clear and thoughtful retrospective of the high points (and low) of Wally Wood’s glorious super-hero comic books.—JBC] Let us turn back the clock to that Wonderful Year, 1965. A new comics company was about to be born. DC had, for the past nine years, shown that super-heroes were once again a viable market. Marvel Comics had sparked a revolution that made their books prime college-age reading fodder. Archie had retooled its Adventures of the Fly title to feature an Avengers-like team of revived heroes. Best of all, news had leaked about a new TV show to debut in early ’66 featuring Batman. Nobody knew if it’d be a hit yet, but the fact of its existence proved that attention, favorable attention, was finally being paid to comic books. Considering the fact that the industry had almost gone belly-up ten years earlier and were only saved by the advent of the Comics Code, that wasn’t bad news at all. So, in this era of The Beatles, Sean Connery’s James Bond, Lyndon Johnson, and early renewed commitment to the Vietnam War, a paperback publisher named Tower Books decided to hit the racks with a new comic series. Its publisher was Harry Shorten and its editor was Samm Schwartz, both veterans of the Archie comics group. For a chief artist, they hired away a mainstay of the EC/Mad bullpen from Marvel, where he was winding up a short but acclaimed run of Daredevil. Given the freedom to write and design characters, Wallace Wood came over, and brought others with him. And the product of their labors soon became available on spinner racks across the country, in a hope of challenging Marvel, DC, and the competitors who were shortly to flood the market with new super-hero books as soon as the debut of the Batman television show. Its title was T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents # 1, dated November 1965, hit the ground running. With a 25¢, 64-page package of six superbly-drawn tightly-plotted stories, the book packed in three new super-heroes, a horde of secret agents, mystery men, super-villains, monsters and action, action, action! One look at the book and the reader could tell that here, indeed, was the king of the backseat comics; it was the only mid-’60s title to successfully compete with Marvel and DC super-hero fare. It set the pace for two years of giant-sized comics that most fans of that period recall as fondly as anything from the two major publishers. 14

This page: Detail from Dynamo pin-up, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #3. Art by Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins.

T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents 101

In-Depth History of the Heroes of Tower

This page: Panel detail, “A Day in the Life of Dynamo,” Dynamo #1. Art by Mike Sekowsky & Frank Giacoia.

Basically, Tower Comics, which published T.H.U.N.D.E.R. and the several spin-offs, boiled down to one person: Wallace Wood. As creator of the series, major artist and writer and self-admitted freelance editor, Wood produced his best commercial comics work of the ’60s while at Tower. The nearly two-dozen books he worked on during the 1966-68 period showcase some of the finest super-hero art of the “Second Heroic Age,” particularly his numerous Dynamo stories. As a result, Tower became the only third-force publisher to equal, and at times, surpass Marvel and DC in art quality. Others who wielded the pencil and brush at Tower were equally renowned. Gil Kane, Reed Crandall, Steve Ditko, Dan Adkins, John Giunta, Al Williamson. Few super-hero books would ever boast such a distinguished crew. “I was not only Tower’s top artist, I created the characters, and wrote most of the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents stories,” admitted Wood. “As to why Harry Shorten (head of Tower Books) decided to publish comics, I don’t know. But he came to me and asked me to work up a super-hero book. I then functioned as a freelance editor and did as much of the art as I could.” The concept of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. was a skillful blending of two separate genres that had each, in 1965, been proven sure-fire successes. Secret agents had ridden a wave of popularity since the first James Bond films of the early ’60s, and the Bond/Flint/Solo cult was never bigger. (The popularity of The Man from U.N.C.L.E. in particular seemed to have the greatest impact on this book.) And super-heroes were the rage in comic books; that went without saying. Well, then, why not a cloak-&-dagger type who wore a costume beneath the cloak? That line of thinking resulted in T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1. The cover, drawn by Wood, introduced a triad of new arrivals to the super-hero biz: a blue-clad Superman-type lifted an armored villain overhead, surrounded by a complex of machinery. He was flanked by a cloaked, transparent man on his left, and on the right was a late-comer who apparently had ripped off the Atom’s uniform. The cover, colored only in various shades of red, blue, and yellow, and devoid of any blurbs, was perhaps less flashy than it should have been. Compared to Marvel’s slam-bang broadsides of the period, it looked positively static. But it served to showcase Dynamo, NoMan, and Menthor for their first public appearance. And the greatest back-seat heroes of the mid-’60s were born!

Page one opened with a battlefield scene as we glimpsed a squad of landing UN paratroopers through shattered glass. A caption informed us: “A team of special U.N. agents lands at a remote mountain lab…” In the space of two pages we learned that the unit was on a rescue mission, intent on saving the life of Dr. Emil Jennings, the greatest scientist of the Western world. As fate would have it, the bad guys escaped unharmed in a helicopter, and Jennings was cold meat on his laboratory floor. “This has to be the work of the Warlord!” muttered a squad leader. “Just who is this Warlord, sir?” asked a soldier, thus allowing us to be introduced to the villain of the piece. The Warlord proves to be the mysterious leader of a SPECTRE or T.H.R.U.S.H.-like organization, with every available criminal and spy at his beck and call. His objective: The theft of every scientific development on Earth. Masked by a purple hood, the weird spy-chief held congress only with his top lieutenants, and not even they had seen his true features. “Now he’s gotten to this experimental station and our most advanced research, and since the professor never kept notes, all these devices will be his sole property… we can never duplicate them!” finishes the officer. “They didn’t have time to get everything, sir,” says another crewman. “Look at these!” The scene immediately shifts to a high-level conference room in New York. A wall is decorated with a figure of the Western Hemisphere and the words, “The Higher United Nations Defense Enforcement Reserves.” T.H.U.N.D.E.R.’s Inner Council stands assembled, considering the three recovered devices from Jennings’ laboratory… a metallic belt, a blue-black cloak, and a rigid helmet in the form of a headmask. “The first is an electron molecular intensifier belt which will make the wearer’s body structure change to the consistency of steel!” says a speaker, holding up the belt. Next, he gestures to the cape, and explains its ability of becoming absolutely black, reflecting no light and rendering the wearer invisible. “And this one we’re not sure of,” he says, fondling the strange helmet. “It seems to be a cybernetic helmet… it could be dangerous, but it could amplify a man’s brain power many times over…” Quickly, the heads of the free world’s greatest 15

Unsuspectingly, Len Brown follows his guide through several checkpoints to Level Seven, the meeting place of T.H.U.N.D.E.R.’s Inner Council. Confronted by a semi-circle of the West’s top spy-chiefs, he is offered a chance at becoming an agent, and, in the best comic book hero tradition, accepts. One panel later, Brown is stripped down to blue trunks and boots and offered Jennings’ blue metal belt with the strange dial in the buckle position. “Because of your physical stamina, you’ve been selected to use the Thunderbelt,” says one attendant. “It will change your body’s atomic structure,” explains another. “Put it on!” (Tower was never noted for excess dialogue, as you can tell.) After allowing the belt time to adopt itself to his metabolism, Brown turns the dial. Abruptly, a surge of electrical discharges bathe him in blue fire as the energy released rends the air with a spectacular CR-RACK! Shades of Captain Marvel! It was obviously derivative of the Big Red Cheese, and just as fun in 1965 as in 1940. With a weight of over 1,000 pounds, and a density approximating that of titanium steel, Len Brown was setup to become T.H.U.N.D.E.R.’s first super-agent. The attendants instruct Brown to take a poke at a wall target with an impact gauge attached. “Okay… here goes. I’ll probably wind up breaking my hand… WHA…!?” KRUMF! One panel later, Brown steps into the adjoining office through the hole he has just made in the wall. Instant super-hero! In the final steps of the super-hero ritual, Brown is informed of the necessary Achilles Heel: That prolonged use of the belt can so drain his physical energy as to be fatal. (In later stories, the belt would be outfitted with a timer to turn itself off after a half-hour had passed.) The brownhaired Brown is provided with a blue-and-white costume of metallic fabric and dubbed “Dynamo,” for obvious reasons. And none too soon… for, at the bottom of the page, the Warlord strikes again! A pair of armored trucks proceeds to blanket New York City under a dense fog composed of iron particles (?). Under cover of the mist, teams of armor-clad raiders stage snatch-and-grab raids of radioactive materials. At this point, the reader first glimpses Dynamo’s longest-lived ally and adversary… the Iron Maiden, Tower’s version of the Dragon Lady. A beautiful redhead who wore a suit of gleaming metal that hugged her curves like a body-suit, the Iron Maiden played Catwoman to Dynamo’s Batman. In over nine separate clashes with T.H.U.N.D.E.R.’s big blue blockbuster, she represented the ultimate and 16

Left: NoMan illustration, Gosh Wow! #2. Art by Reed Crandall.

semi-secret defensive organization come to an agreement. A full-scale assault must be led against the Warlord, spearheaded by three agents who will employ the inventions of Dr. Jennings against the man who ordered his murder. “…And so the search begins,” reads the final caption. The four-page introductory sequence fairly breathed clichés, from the doomed scientist who creates super-heroes to the opposed agencies locked in global Cold War conflict. But the plot was solid, the concepts didn’t stretch reality to the breaking point, and, of course, Wood’s art pulled the entire thing together. It set several concepts that T.H.U.N.D.E.R. would follow to their final issue: Tight, pulp-like plotting, an economy of dialogue (word balloons were kept to two per panel most of the time) and believability. The T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents, rather than gaining power from radioactive spiders or gamma bomb explosions, were human beings whose abilities were augmented by mechanical devices. It was a welcome touch of conservatism in a comics universe already top-heavy with sorcerers, omnipotent entities, parallel dimensions and heroes with every super-power conceivable. T.H.U.N.D.E.R.’s biggest blockbuster was introduced two pages later with a one-page Wood splash panel. The blue-&-white-clad figure from the front cover grimly towered over a pile of rubble, hands on hips. Behind him was a hole he had made in a brick wall at least two feet thick. Dynamo was unleashed! Tower’s steely superman was originally dubbed “Thunderbolt,” but a last-minute change substituted the name “Dynamo” instead and his new name was lettered over the old one. [Cf. the reprint of page 10, panel 2 in the Dynamo paperback, where the caption reads, “Even Thunderbolt’s iron frame is shaken by the concussion…”] Undoubtedly Charlton, whose Thunderbolt debuted a short time later, was grateful for the change. The 12-page origin story was scripted by Len Brown and drawn by Wood and opened with a waist-shot of our hero as a desk-bound administration official in T.H.U.N.D.E.R. H.Q. An obvious secret identity type you could recognize at 20 paces. “This paperwork isn’t for me!” he muses. “I’m afraid I made a mistake when I accepted this job!” Suddenly, his superior enters the room. “Leonard Brown, will you come with me, please?” (How’s about them apples? The above is the only case I can find in comics history in which a scripter named a major super-hero himself! But, after all, Leonard Brown is at least as believable a moniker as Clark Kent or Peter Parker, so it was allowed to stand.)

Right: Panel detail, “The Enemy Within,” T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1. Art by Gil Kane & Mike Esposito.

unattainable love interest; by issue #4, she was as much smitten by Dynamo as he with her, yet she steadfastly refused to let it get in the way of her criminal career. One must, indeed, admire such dedication. Besides, it kept her coming back time and time again when most other villains usually made one-shot appearances. But in this first clash, Iron Maiden was more hellcat than harlequin. In the meantime, Dynamo is dispatched to rid the city of the fog (which he does) and capture the raiders (one out of two isn’t bad). The four-page fight looked like a 1942 Siegel and Shuster Superman outing; Dynamo merrily demolished a truck, shed bullets like peanut shells, bounced back from a grenade explosion and took on the Iron Maiden’s metal-clad thugs, only to be beaten when his power drain forced him to turn off the Thunderbelt. Dynamo is captured and taken to the Warlord’s island, where the Iron Maiden prepares to dope the secret of his belt out of him. Part One ends with Dynamo in chains, to be resolved in the last story of the issue. In the main, Dynamo did bear resemblance to an early Golden Age Superman figure. He was powerful and as durable as a tank, but never invulnerable. Adventure after adventure ended

up with a scene of his hospital bed, where he recuperated; he was hospitalized three times in one month alone. Moreover, Dynamo carried a spirit of boyish buffoonery into his stories: he was fun. Never bested in battle, Len Brown would regularly report in for a ritual chewing-out by the Chief, a combination of Perry White and J. Jonah Jameson and one of the funniest Big Boss caricatures of that period. In one particularly funny ending, Dynamo’s mother called up the Chief to complain about the way he was treating her little boy! After Dynamo nervously phoned back to beg his mother to please, please never do that again, he received a familiar tap on the shoulder. “There you are, Brown. Step into my office, please….” Brown, about as effective with girls as Captain Marvel, fumblingly carried on a love interest with the strip ingenue, Alice Robbins, the boss’s secretary. More than anything else, Dynamo was the picture of the junior executive super-hero. It was Tower’s most entertaining strip, and Dynamo rated several stories per issue in the earliest and latest T.H.U.N.D.E.R.s, besides spinning off into four issues of his own book. Dynamo was backed up in T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents by Tower’s number two super-star, who debuted immediately after him in issue #1. In the “android hero” department, Tower beat The Vision and the Red Tornado to the punch by more than three years. Enter the Android Agent… NoMan! The blue-skinned humanoid with the darkened eye sockets was another Wood creation, introduced in his initial story with art by Reed Crandall. Without a doubt, NoMan was one of the unique super-heroes of his time, and became their most fully-rounded character as well. In the origin story, Dr. Anthony Dunn volunteers to have his mind transferred into an android body he created jointly with the late, lamented Dr. Jennings. Dunn, as we first see him, is the diametric opposite of Dynamo: An aged, infirm, balding scientist bound to a wheelchair. He may have been the most unlikely alter ego ever considered for a super-hero. Dunn gives up human existence a page later to enter a synthetic body. “For the first time in years I feel young and strong!” The catch was, Dunn had more than one body at his disposal. In fact, he had an army of mass-produced androids, each of which he could transfer his mind-essence into at will. Whenever one body was destroyed, he just shuttled his mind into a new one. This led to the cliché of having him killed at least once each issue, but as clichés go, it was pretty unusual! (Once, when his last spare was destroyed, his line was, “If they kill me now I’m dead!”) This power was augmented by the invisibility cloak of Dr. Jennings. “From now on, call me NoMan,” he declared on page three. It fit. The rest of the story pitted NoMan against Demo, “the Warlord’s most formidable underworld agent,” who commanded an army of simian “Sub-men.” The fight that ensued allowed NoMan to strut his stuff by defeating the caveman gang, using his invisibility cloak, and transferring to another body when Demo shot him in the chest. While he made his way to the scene of the crime in his new corpus, the villains took it on the lam. The pattern was set for all of NoMan’s subsequent adventures. 17

Mike Sekowsky, Wally Wood, and Paul Reinman lent their artistic hands to NoMan’s adventures. The third member of T.H.U.N.D.E.R.’s triad debuted in the next story, with pencils by Gil Kane and George Tuska and inks by Mike Esposito. Menthor appeared in a Jack Kirby pose, legs four feet apart and on the verge of throwing a haymaker. Since Kane was also drawing The Atom at the time, the similarity in their costuming was made even more evident. And, strangely enough, T.H.U.N.D.E.R.’s third hero started his career as a traitor. “The Enemy Within” introduced John Janus, whiz-kid applicant, who passed T.H.U.N.D.E.R.’s initiation exams with the highest scores ever. (Janus: “This is child’s play!” Other applicant: “You have to be a genius to answer these questions!”) On the side, he moonlighted for the Warlord as a double agent. (In this story, the Warlord wore a green headmask and had a human face!) His assignment: Shut down the defenses in T.H.U.N.D.E.R. H.Q. preparatory to an invasion. Meanwhile, when the Council seeks volunteers for a test of Jennings’ mysterious cybernetic helmet, Janus plays applepolisher by offering himself. Not only did the blue-mask device endow him with psychokinetic power, it also changed Janus’s personality, making him a staunch supporter of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. (Initially, whenever he removed the helmet, Menthor could remember nothing that occurred under its influence.) T.H.U.N.D.E.R. dubs him “Menthor” and gives him custody of the device. Predictably, after Janus lets the Warlord strike force in, he dons the helmet, does a Jekyll-Hyde split, and beats the enemy squad and a giant monster single-handedly. Menthor used his psycho-powers sparingly in the fracas, limiting himself to mind-reading and sapping the strength of his fallen opponents. The rest was a typical Kane fist-to-chin punch out. The Warlord was ignorant of Menthor’s direct involvement and still held him as a trusted agent at the end of the story. The series concept began to change with the next issue. The scripters decided to take the easy way out and make T.H.U.N.D.E.R.’s telepath a full-time hero. Janus becomes predominantly good, renounces the Warlord (“I must help T.H.U.N.D.E.R. stop this fiend!”) and shambles through an action-filled but pointless episode. It was one of his few weak outings, as Menthor’s stories soon surpassed the rest in intricacy of plotting. A two-part story, which ran in #3 and 4, involved 18

Left: Panel detail, “The Deadly Dust,” T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #4. Art by Mike Sekowsky & Frank Giacoia.

T.H.U.N.D.E.R.’s synthetic super-hero was the least derivative of the entire lot. Naturally, the gimmick of placing a human mind in an artificial body had been around at least as long as Frankenstein, and had a clear pair of genre antecedents in DC’s two versions of Robotman, but NoMan was clearly not a copy. And he soon gained the best characterization of the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. cabal as writers began to play up the psychic crisis of adjusting to life in a non-human body. (Oddly enough, nobody in the series except NoMan seemed to notice the difference! To Dynamo, Menthor and Lightning, he was just “one of the boys.”) NoMan’s character was subtly hinted at in several issues—in particular, #4, when he ogled a pretty blonde and gave thought to being human again—but the understated tensions finally come to a head in #7’s “To Be or Not To Be.” This story was one of the few Tower pieces that centered on character development rather than goodguy-vs-bad-guy plot. NoMan rebelled against his own android identity, and against T.H.U.N.D.E.R., which he held responsible for creating it. He recklessly drove his excess bodies on a suicide binge around the world. Trying to fit into human society again, NoMan even proposed marriage to a girl. She turned him down, not because of his android form, but for his failure to face life’s realities. NoMan subsequently become involved in a plot to destroy his remaining spare bodies, only to realize his error, turn on his co-plotters and rejoin T.H.U.N.D.E.R. As NoMan prepared for a space mission at the end of a ten-pager, he mused, “The only thing I regret is Trudy… I guess it was impossible… but whatever I am, my soul has a destiny as valid as any… and I must play out the role I’ve chosen.” It was about as close to a statement of the human condition as Tower ever got, and the blue-skinned android become Tower’s most three-dimensional figure as a resuIt. As T.H.U.N.D.E.R.’s number two hero in popularity, NoMan earned a two-issue try-out in his own magazine and rated one story per issue in T-Agents right up to #19, the last non-reprint issue. He was cover-featured more times than any other character except Dynamo. The offbeat character of his strip accommodated weirder villains than his fellows, such as aliens, a reincarnated Egyptian princess, and a number of mad scientist types. Besides Reed Crandall, who handled the first three issues, Gil Kane, Steve Ditko, Ogden Whitney, John Giunta,

Right: Panel detail, “Wonder Weed, Super-Hero,” Dynamo #1. Art by John Giunta.

the loss of the helmet to his evil brother Conrad, who promptly imitated Menthor and hypnotized Dynamo into running amok at full power through T.H.U.N.D.E.R. headquarters. The phony perished when his bullet ricocheted from Dynamo’s body back into his own chest. He failed to reveal John Janus’s whereabouts. The next story, rendered by Giunta and Wood, had the thickest plot of any Tower ten-pager ever published: Menthor develops amnesia and is rescued by the Great Hypno, a carnival mentalist, who discovers the residual powers in Janus’s mind and hypnotically causes him to steal back the helmet. Menthor eventually regains his memory and the story climaxes with a helmetless Menthor and a helmeted Hypno playing human pawns against each other in Fort Knox. After that, the helmet would be stolen twice; it become as big a cliché as NoMan’s mandatory “death” per story. (In issue #6, Menthor lost the helmet and still hadn’t recovered it by the end of the story. One character remarked that they “had a good lead on (the thief’s) whereabouts.” It must’ve been a great lead; he had the helmet back in the next issue with no explanation whatsoever.) Menthor ran for seven stories in T-Agents #1 through 7, and his series ended in one of Tower’s most excellent climaxes. But that’s a tale for later on in this piece. At the other end of the spectrum, T-Agents #1 introduced the fourth and final feature that was anything but spectacular. It was derivative, dull, and poorly done. Tower must have gotten the message quickly, because it only ran four issues. Of course, the feature was the “T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Squad.” The weak sister of an otherwise excellent group of strips, the Squad was drawn in all four issues by Mike Sekowsky. It starred a group of five (later four) non-super specialists who cooled off hot spots around the globe. Each one was pretty stereotyped: Guy Gilbert was the squad leader and matinee idol; “Dynamite” John Adkins (renamed Dan Adkins in #11) played Big Dumb Muscleman and demo expert; “Kitten” Kane, a girl, was the token sexpot and software expert; Weed Wylie, the most engaging of the bunch, was a weasel-like, chain-smoking, shifty-eyed safecracker short on intellect but long on cunning; and Egghead… well, his name says it all. He ended up by being snuffed unceremoniously in the second issue. Nobody in the story seemed to notice. On their own, the group was about as exciting as white bread. They were soon phased out and became fairly interesting supporting characters in other strips. The first

adventure set them against the Warlord and his zombie army to recover a stolen laser gun. They were successful, but the Warlord boasted of his capture of Dynamo to them, allowing a tie-in with his earlier story. Finally, in Dynamo’s second outing in the book (he was to have two stories per issue until #5), the entire cast and crew assembled in Justice Society-fashion to reunite Dynamo with his belt and drive the Iron Maiden from her island base. The last caption in the book promised, “See the criminals brought to justice in the next issue of T-Agents!” All in all, it was one of the best-illustrated first issues of the mid-’60s, and even if the dialogue was wooden, the art was Wood. It was to set the format for the next 18 issues of the book. Issue #2, like #1, was largely a four-part novel centering on the Dynamo story. Len Brown and company took on the super-robot Dynavac, Iron Maiden, Demo and a horde of zombies; T.H.U.N.D.E.R. headquarters was destroyed; and a final confrontation was had with the Warlord. Unmasked, he turned out to be a bug-eyed, greenskinned humanoid who committed suicide with an atomic bomb. (Now, that’s committing suicide!) In #3 it was revealed that the Warlord was but one member of a subterranean race who had it in for the surface world; one of their cities had been devastated by an underground nuclear test, and in the finest Sub-Mariner tradition, they were about to return the compliment. Dynamo disposed of the Warlord’s first successor by neatly sandwiching him between ceiling and floor. By this time, having introduced the next evil counterpart to T.H.U.N.D.E.R., the book’s storylines were independent of each other. New costumed villains like the Red Dragon and Vibraman owed no allegiance to any organization. At this point, it is pleasant to reflect on several trademarks of Tower scripting. The restraint displayed in avoiding the supernatural had already been discussed. Tower characters were little more than two steps away from reality, and their world was not beset by the super-hero population explosions of Marvel and DC. Also, the good guys were not tied down to Metropolis or New York City. As members of an international peacekeeping force, they ranged over the entire world. Dynamo, NoMan, Menthor and their chums traded punches in the Middle East, Vietnam, island chains, the Himalayas, and even that strange and half-mythical land the ancients call Texas (and I’m still burned up about that one, so don’t ask me about it!). It provided an interesting contrast within the strip, and convinced the reader that T.H.U.N.D.E.R. 19

deathtrap. “The machines you see here are a battery of laser guns trained on that doorway,” gloats Menthor’s captor. “When anything crosses that electric eye, it is blasted… instantly! Faster than even super-human reflexes can react! This time we put an end to T.H.U.N.D.E.R. … for good!”

Desperately, Menthor makes a grab for his helmet; a Warlord shoots him in the side. With the lives of his approaching friends at stake, Menthor stumbles across the room. Subterraneans from all sides pump hot lead into his body. “Must do something… can’t let them kill… Len… Kitten… Weed… NoMan… Guy… got to warn them….” Shot point-blank six times, the telepath forces his body to take one last step into the doorway, and in full view of Dynamo, NoMan and crew, a triple burst of ruby energy cuts through his body… and Menthor dies! The shocking death scene was the most violent snuffing of a super-hero ever recorded in the comics. Certainly, it was the most memorable scene in the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. saga. Consumed with mindless rage, Dynamo and company turn on the Subterraneans and wipe out the entire installation, herding their last victims into the doorway deathtrap. Grimly, the story closes with Menthor’s funeral; from here on in, the war against the green men is total. (Total war against aliens was nothing new for Wally Wood, though; from his participation in the famous ’60s Mars Attacks trading card series through Gold Key’s Total War/M.A.R.S. Patrol, the idea of mankind vs. ruthless alien creatures was a recurrent one.) Many companies have used the death of a hero as a major springboard for a story. But in almost all cases, the victim is a cancelled character who meets the Reaper while guest-starring in somebody else’s strip. Menthor, a strong member of the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. line-up since #1, met violent death in his own story and so increased the drama a thousand-fold. No more than a handful of death scenes in ’60s and ’70s comics can match the impact of Menthor’s, and none surpass it. The story was a foreshadowing: In the very next issue, the death of the Subterranean Overlord at the hands of NoMan brought the series to a close.

Left: Cover detail, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #14. Art by Gil Kane.

was indeed “international,” more so than, say, the American-based S.H.I.E.L.D. ever did. (Curiously, though T.H.U.N.D.E.R. was a U.N. task force, aIl the member agents chosen to become super-heroes were Americans. Tower couldn’t quite escape provinciality completely.) The few stories utilizing alien (meaning from other worlds) beings were great. The situation was handled credibly, with the feeling of First Contact that has long since been lost in these days of Skrull-Kree Wars and Galactic Federations. The well-done Dynamo “alien-trilogy” (Dynamo #1, 3, and 4) by Wood is a case in point. The eeriness of the encounter is played to the hilt by never letting the reader actually see the invaders until the last page of the third story; nor do they communicate with man until the very last panels. The object lesson, that man is a stranger in a hostile universe, was made more chillingly effective in this fashion than if a billion invading Skrull fleets had been shown. Also, Tower was never afraid to be fun. Dynamo and Weed played it for laughs every time they got the chance. “Now to get back up to the penthouse… in a single leap!” thought Dynamo in one story as he took a single bound from street level. He landed on a ledge halfway up: “Hmmm—might take two leaps.” In the same issue, Len Brown jumped through the roof of a getaway car: “I’ll just put me in the driver’s seat!” (parodying a popular car rental commercial of that time). Driver: “That hurts!” Two paneIs later, he rolled the baddies home inside auto tires. Weed faced villains who gained super-powers after being bitten by radioactive moles (!), buried Dynamo under a vat of molten peanut butter, and stopped a fracas between T.H.U.N.D.E.R. and the Red Star by spraying both sides with stupidity gas. Tower held the humor down to a tongue-incheek level, rather than the excessive approach of Not Brand Echh! or The Inferior Five, and induced more belly laughs than both of them. It was, once again, the Captain Marvel approach re-tailored for the ’60s. But it wasn’t all fun and games in T-Agents. Far from it. The seventh issue presented one of the rarest breeds of super-hero stories ever: The death of a major character in his own strip. The story, drawn by Ditko and Wood, was titled “A Matter of Life and Death!” In the splash panel, Menthor, stripped of his helmet, faced two armed Subterranean Warlords. No cover blurb advertised this story, and grimmer splash pages can be found by the carload. The reader was pretty well unprepared for the following ten-page epic. A cadre of Warlords discover a means of jamming Menthor’s helmet and capture him, hoping to lead the other super-agents into a

Right: Panel detail, “Sink the Carrier Gettysburg,” Undersea Agent #1. Art by Ray Bailey.

By this time, two new super-heroes had been added to the book. Neither matched Dynamo in popularity or quality and both strips were eventually dropped. Lightning was Guy Gilbert of the ill-fated T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Squad. To combat a weapon that slowed human reactions to a standstill, he was outfitted with a costume which made him a hundred times as fast as a normal human. Accordingly, it aged him at the same accelerated pace. Obviously an imitation of The Flash, Lightning’s strip wasn’t half bad, but never attained greatness. Perhaps the fact that two artists who are rarely associated with drawing graceful, stream-lined humans, Mike Sekowsky and Chic Stone, handled the art may have been the reason. The Raven, who took over Menthor’s slot, showed promise at the outset. Originally a mercenary, Craig Lawson was recruited by T.H.U.N.D.E.R. to employ a jet-pack device against flying Subterraneans. He become a loyalist after Lightning saved his life. After the first strip, the art, (and it is charity to call it that) was handled by Manny Stallman. Stallman had drawn DC’s Big Town for the last five years of its run, but had been inked by John Giunta there; his mystery tales for Atlas during that period were pretty tightly inked though. For Tower, with its smaller original art size, though, Stallman switched to a heavy, brush-dominated style which was met with heavy dislike by the readership. (Stallman’s current occupation is drawing Adventures of the Big Boy—and he’s little better-suited to do that.) Tower dumped the strip in #13 to substitute an “Undersea Agent” filler drawn by Paul Reinman. In the next issue, a totally new direction was taken, as Gil Kane wrote and drew a ten-page Raven feature. He also did the cover, making this Raven’s only featured appearance. The airborne agent battled a Communist psychic-spy called The Prophet in this story; it was the last Raven outing to see print, and by far the best. After the fall of the Subterraneans, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. promptly found itself faced with another cliché-driven evil organization. This time the baddies called themselves S.P.I.D.E.R., which stood for the Secret People’s International Directorate for Extralegal Revenue. A military figure assured us in their first appearance that “This is an organization of professional criminals all dedicated to the destruction of the American way of life.” “The rats!” observes Dynamo with characteristic profundity. Eventually, Iron Maiden, Demo and all the rest of the

Warlord’s old hirelings ended up in the pay of T.H.U.N.D.E.R.’s version of T.H.R.U.S.H. It was easier to keep S.P.I.D.E.R. around than to destroy it and think up a new Evil Menace. They were still around by the Agents’ last battles. The last important continuing character was Andor, a human child brought up under the evil auspices of the Subterraneans and who constantly suffered brainwashings by them so that he would attempt to destroy T.H.U.N.D.E.R. He guest-starred first in Dynamo #1 and made many appearances afterward, nearly taking over the focus of the strips he appeared in, usually battling Dynamo. He was an extremely tragic figure, losing his memory and his sight and constantly losing women he loved. The Subterraneans gave him super-strength enough to battle Dynamo to a standstill, the latter somewhat sympathetic to Andor’s plight and continually finding himself unable to finish Andor off for good. Had things progressed, it’s quite possible that Andor might have become a member of the group. Tower’s growing success caused a few spin-offs by 1966; all were 25¢ giants like the parent T-Agents. Dynamo had four issues of his own book, featuring some of Wood’s best art. NoMan, with slightly less excellent work, lasted for two solo outings. A war book, Fight the Enemy, stayed for three issues; and Tippy Teen, a nominal Archie-type offering, ended up outlasting T-Agents. Debuting the some month as T-Agents #1, Tippy Teen eventually ran 27 issues, as it was able to weather the backlash period of 1968-69 which virtually wiped out the back-seaters. Undersea Agent proved to be the longestlived non-T.H.U.N.D.E.R. adventure book from Tower with six issues between January, 1966 and March, 1967. Basically, the series was a rough cross between The Man from U.N.C.L.E. and Sea Hunt. Lt. Davey Jones was featured as the crack agent of Undersea, an experimental domed city on the ocean floor. Jones battled various underwater menaces and gained magnetic powers in #2, but floundered due to poor art and worse writing. Gil Kane arrived by #3 to stage an underwater rescue mission; by #5 and 6 he had contributed some effective art and covers, especially the Wood-inked beauty fronting #6. But it just wasn’t help enough and the book went down for the third time when Tower devoted all its resources to shoring up T-Agents. Up to this point, emphasis has been placed on Tower’s good aspects. And T-Agents was the highestquality super-hero book from a minor company during this period. But there were weak points in the series: for one thing, the lead characters were never very 21

Left: Detail, Andor the Humanoid pin-up, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #4. Art by Dan Adkins.

acknowledged editor besides Wood was teenage-humor artist Samm Schwartz, who drew Tippy Teen, having served his apprenticeship by drawing Archie for years before that. Thus, Menthor lost his helmet and got it back without an explanation; NoMan undertook a space mission in #7 which was never so much as mentioned afterward; Lightning was injured by flak in the same issue and turned up hale and hardy in #8; Raven changed his flight gear and uniform twice without even a caption to acknowledge the fact; and Dynamo was shot, blown-up and hospitalized many times during the same month. (Blue Cross must’ve loved him!) Footnotes were as rare as a purple dodo. In an era in which continuity has become a Holy GraiI to fans and scripters alike, and the Omniversal Theory threatens to make comics-reading an Einsteinian task, Tower’s lack of cohesive storylines seems barren indeed. But it resulted in well-plotted, entertaining, self-contained short stories, at least five per issue in 19 issues. Only a handful of T-Agents tales ran to two parts, and the only three-parter, the “alien trilogy,” was composed of three separate but related stories. Modern comics writers, with their penchant for stretching serials out for two years at a time, might do well to study Tower techniques. When Tower Comics, gave up the (new story) ghost in 1968, poor sales were not the reason. “Harry [Shorten] told me later that the books always made money,” wrote Wallace Wood. “He was forced out by his distributor [PDC], who also handled another comic book company [Harvey].” The finger of suspicion is cast, however, more likely at DC and Marvel, who were said to have had something to do with the demise of Charlton’s action-hero line—despite the fact that Charlton was self-distributed. DC’s Independent News arm had apparently asked the largest wholesalers to overlook the competitors’ books which they felt were directly siphoning off their share of the super-hero market—and must have had the clout to achieve their goal. As Tower’s output spiraled down

Left: Detail, Overlord pin-up, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #8. Art by Wallace Wood & Ralph Reese.

deep. Personality development was minimalized in favor of plotting and action, so that the only heroes with a chance at well-defined characters were Dynamo and NoMan. Even in these cases it depended on the whim of the individual writer. Secondly, the existence of an entire monolithic organization working for “good,” such as U.N.C.L.E., T.H.U.N.D.E.R. or S.H.I.E.L.D., required a similar and equallypowerful organization dedicated to evil. Thus T.H.U.N.D.E.R. was always fighting the same enemy: The evil worldwide agency out to conquer Earth. The Warlord menace and S.P.I.D.E.R. had a dreary sameness, but the series could no more stray from the concept than can S.H.I.E.L.D. finally destroy Hydra. The good guys have to have someone big enough for them to fight. Naturally, the series suffered at times from poor continuity. All the writers were free lancers and thus were not encouraged to leave plot lines dangling at the ends of stories. After the first two issues, individual stories bore little relationship to each other. Perhaps this has to do with lack of editorial experience with non-humor material; Tower’s only other

Right: Panels from “First Encounter,” T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1. Art by Wallace Wood. T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1. Art by Wallace Wood. Right: Panel detail, “Menace of the Iron Fog,”

to two Summer issues in 1968, the talent had to look elsewhere to find work, and Wood, Kane and Ditko ended up plying their trade for DC, leaving the T-Agents to the hands of the likes of Mike Sekowsky, Paul Reinman, Chic Stone and Ogden Whitney. Not to mention the fact that the final issues were plagued by irregular distribution. There was a gap of several months between #10 and 11, during which most readers thought the book had been cancelled. At other times, particularly from issues #12 to 16, the books seemed to come out every three weeks. With the shelving of Lightning and Raven, the book’s line-up became too unstable, and Dynamo was forced to carry a disproportionate share of the comic. His stories (probably prepared for the by-then cancelled Dynamo title) increased from one to three per issue; in the last books, they were offset only by one NoMan story and a reprint. As Tower’s older and better artists moved on to other companies, the book become dominated by second-stringers.

Where do they stand in retrospect? Actually, more favorably than most. In T-Agents, Wallace Wood unleashed his best post-EC comics work; his run of Daredevil is hardly comparable. The Wood Dynamo still stands as one of the best-drawn super-heroes of that period. T-Agents also featured equally high-quality work by Crandall, Kane and Ditko. Too, T-Agents was the first regularly-published giant-sized comic featuring original material to survive for an extensive run; Tower was the exception at the time when the 32-pager was king. In the increasingly complex world of super-hero scripts and soap-opera characterization, Tower proved that solid plots, selfcontained stories and ten-pagers could be effective. And, of course, they gave us Dynamo, NoMan, and Menthor, whom most ’60s fans remember as fondly as most of the Marvel and DC horde of that time.

Moreover, Tower had proven that a third-force comics company could compete with the two established superhero publishers, and win. Most of the minors were willing to pick the crumbs from the DC-Marvel table; Tower stood beside the two giants in terms of sales and quality. Of the second-stringers, Tower was the only first-rate group.

Finally, in 1968 they threw in the towel along with the other minor super-hero lines. T-Agents #17 was dated Dec. ’67; #18 bore a Sept. ’68 cover date, and #19, for all intents and purposes the last issue, was dated Nov ’68. A year later Tower made a half-hearted comeback with T-Agents #20, a book of reprints with a four-page recap of [The author thanks Wallace Wood for information, George Olshevsky Dynamo’s origin. Except for one more Tippy Teen reprint issue dated Feb. for inspiration, and Marvin and Elizabeth Slaughter for editing, advice, 1970, this poorly-distributed issue was the last gasp for Tower Comics. loan of their collection, and much beer and good conversation.—LM] 23

Top & bottom left: Panels from “A Matter of Life and Death,” T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #7. Art by Wallace Wood, Dan Adkins & Steve Ditko.

It simply was not done… at least not in the “Silver Age” of American comic books. Sure, Marvel had Captain America’s World War Two-era boy sidekick, Bucky Barnes, fall to his (ahem) untimely—and off-panel—death in a flash-back when the star-spangled hero was resurrected in The Avengers #4 (Mar. ’64), but ’60s funny-book editors just didn’t instruct freelancers to kill off their super-hero players. And though it seemed every other issue of Superman depicted the Man o’ Steel as suffering from some fatal Kryptonian malady or in some particular stage of super-rigor mortis (surrounded by the obligatory crowd of mourning pals and girlfriends), it always turned out to be a cheat of some kind (phew!), whether in the form of an “imaginary story” or a ruse to outwit some murderous scoundrel. Even supporting cast members readers could only dream of seeing iced (Snapper Carr anyone?) who lived on, never aging, never changing, always annoying. Understand that the Grim Reaper was hardly a stranger in “non-imaginary” costumed hero exploits—these were the hyperbolic comic books of the overwrought ’60s, after all—as Marvel founding fathers Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, for instance, crafted a melodramatic gem in Avengers #9 (Oct. ’64), a tale that introduced one Simon Garth, a novice good guy known by the sobriquet Wonder Man. The Lee & Kirby spin? The newly-born super-hero dies in the very same ish. For good. (At least until second generation writers at the House of Ideas got their hooks into the cadaver, bringing the character back from the dead nearly a dozen years later.) But standard practice assured that regular stock characters were assured eternal life (at least until cancellation). But in the late Spring of 1966, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #7 changed all that. Shocking captivated fans to no end, Wallace Wood and company did the unthinkable when the Master of Mental Force, Menthor (“Is he hero? Is he turncoat?”), bites the Big One in the cave lair of the villainous Warlord. In that issue’s final story, “A Matter of Life and Death”(written, layed-out and inked by Wood and Adkins, with tight pencils by Steve Ditko), the valiant wielder of T.H.U.N.D.E.R.’s cybernetic helmet struggles to

Death of a Hero!

Demise of The Man Called Menthor

Right: Page from “A Matter of Life and Death,” T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #7. Art by Wallace Wood, Dan Adkins & Steve Ditko.

warn his fellow T-Agents of a trap laid by the green meanies, but John Janus is plugged with at least six shots from a Subterranean gun (with—to seal the deal—a lethal dose of voltage courtesy of the Warlord’s force field thrown in), falling dead before his comrades. Several days after Dynamo and company apparently massacre countless minions in a savage rampage to avenge their ally’s murder, the team lays to rest Menthor (“yep, he’s a hero!”) with a stormy night burial. But— and here’s the amazing aspect that makes the grim story unprecedented in its day—the character actually remains dead, never to use his mental powers again. Avid readers were flabbergasted. “I was astonished! I never thought that you would kill off one of your best agents, much less one as wonderful as Menthor,” raged Thomas Chicarella of Brooklyn, New York, in #11’s letter column, adding “The next time you pull a trick like that, I’m going to quit reading T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents forever!” But, to the relief of Tower staffers (who confessed in the same letter col that “we were afraid to venture out of the office for fear of being lynched because of what happened to Menthor. We’ve even had letters addressed to us as ‘Dear Murderers’”), numerous readers were impressed by the innovative twist. Danny Lynch wrote: “Having Menthor killed was a stroke of pure genius on your writer’s part. I think it added to the realism of your magazine a whole lot.” The Louisville, Kentucky scribe also revealed that T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents had won the the 1965 Alley Awards for “Best Giant Comic” and “Best New Book.” “A Matter of Life and Death” would be considered a high water mark for super-hero comics and an indicator of more creative times to come for the field. Future Deluxe Comics publisher David Singer wrote in his T-Agents history in Amazing Heroes #7 (Dec. ’81) that the story “has gone down in comics history as one of the all-time classics.” Though neglecting to mention the writers and primary artists behind the tale—Wallace Wood and Dan Adkins—Men of Tomorrow author

Gerard A. Jones and Will Jacobs enthused in their book, The Comic Book Heroes (rev. ed., ’97), “No super-hero who’d been around for more than one issue had ever been killed before—[writer] Jim Shooter’s Ferro Lad story [“The Doomed Legionnaire,” Adventure Comics #353, Feb. ’67] was still six months away—and it happened with brutal Ditko intensity. There was a message here: the artists had something to say, and they were restless to say it.” The tragic saga of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. agent John Janus, a.k.a. Menthor, with its novel infusion of permanent death into a super-hero milieu, doubtless had an impact on future comics creators who would go on to inject their own super-hero epics with a similar sense of reality. Starving readers of the ’60s were increasingly hungry for relevancy in their comics fare and here Woody and his able crew delivered.

Days of Blunder!

Certainly the heroes of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. had an impact on the other comic book publishers of the mid-1960s. The Tower Comics’ line sported a consistent level of quality that not only attracted the fickle attention of increasing sophisticated readers, but undoubtedly the concerns of the Big Two, as well. Wallace Wood’s titles—T-Agents, Dynamo, and NoMan— were among the best-looking comics on the stands, the covers artdirected to perfection, often exquisitely colored, rarely marred by any hyperbolic blurbs of the Stan Lee sort. And the interior work… well, we all know how extraordinary the level of art in those inside pages. Yet Tower’s marketshare—or lack thereof—limited due to newness, lousy distribution, and their gamble to price all titles at 25¢ apiece (even if they were all-new giants, but still twice the price of DC and Marvel’s 12¢ books) must have given some comfort to the more established publishers weary of the upstart. But any solace didn’t stop them from poking fun at the competition. The first issue of The Inferior Five [Mar.-Apr. ’67] mocks Woody’s heroes (and The Man from U.N.C.L.E.) with “Five Characters in Search of a Plot!” (written by E. Nelson Bridwell with Mike Sekowsky pencils and Mike Esposito inks), as DC’s goofy super-powered team does battle with a crime organization called H.U.R.R.I.C.A.N.E., an acronym for Heinous, Unscrupulous Rats and Rogues Initiating Criminal Anarchy and Nefarious Evil. (See if you can guess the source of the parodied agents’ names: Powerhouse, Missing Fink, Mr. Mental, Yellow Streak, Blackbird, “Tabby” Katz, “Nitro” Gleason, and “Crabgrass” Wilde.) Later that year, in September, Marvel’s Brand Echh #2 gives us writer Gary Friedrich and artist Marie Severin’s take on Dynamo and company with a Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. caricature—Knock Furious, Agent of S.H.E.E.S.H.—(aided by his howling “coldbricks”) duking it out with an abbreviated crew of B.L.U.N.D.E.R. Agents, Dynaschmoe, and NoBody (with mention of agent “Pussycat”). The seven-pager is particularly effective in satirizing Tower Comics, especially the Wallace Wood clichés, mocking Woody’s rendering of handsome heroes always effortlessly smashing through brick walls, as well as his perpetual use of lighting effects. The difference between company writing styles is also tweaked, with Dynaschmoe exclaiming, “Over at B.L.U.N.D.E.R. we just fight… and let the competition talk themselves silly!” (Oh, and the House of Idea’s take on the agents’ organization name? Bedraggled League Uv Nations Defenseless Encroachment Reserves. Nuff said?)

Mocking The Men from T.H.U.N.D.E.R.!

This spread: Montage by Jon B. Cooke. “Life” cover illustration by Dan Adkins. Life is a registered trademark of Time Life Warner, Inc.

The adventures of those colorful and beloved operatives of The Higher United Nations Defense Enforcement Reserves— the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents to those of us in the know—traverse the decades, beginning in the waning months of 1965 with a crowded rebirth in the ’80s, and continuing (sporadically, to be sure) into the mid-1990s. The beleaguered and supremely talented crew who produced these celebrated sagas of the initial Tower Comics run (of whom you’ll learn quite a bit more about in the sections to follow) were obviously having a blast at their job, as Wallace Wood and team included numerous in-joke references throughout the series’ initial ’60s appearance. For instance, Woody named the headlining hero code-named Dynamo’s alter-ego after young Topps Bubble Gum copywriter Len Brown with whom the artist had worked on the Mars Attacks! trading card set in the months prior. (And, as the fates would have it, the real Leonard Brown also moonlighted as a scripter on T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents, as you’ll later see!) However much fun the creative folk were having, Wood and company—as well as those to follow: the artists, writers, and editors who were responsible for the ’80s and ’90s revivals of Dynamo and his fellow operatives—worked their fannies off to bring the heroes to life on the comic-book page. But though credit lines in the stories themselves (detailing contributions of the various talents involved in producing a comic book) are commonplace today, back in the ’60s, that wasn’t always the case. And so it was at Tower Comics, where many artists and writers aided creator/ writer/artist/art director/de facto editor Wood, but often with no acknowledgement. (Please also keep in mind that Wood ran a studio with assistants coming and going, some like Dan Adkins who was able to execute an entire story, but also others who were assigned background work and the like.) In the following checklist, as exhaustive and comprehensive as it is, there’s no absolute guarantee that every reference is authentic. With the indispensible assistance of many helpful people, some who worked on the material themselves, others experts in identifying uncredited work, we have done our best to correctly peg the creative personnel behind every issue of T-Agents and its associated titles. Given that the Tower work is nigh-on 40 years old today , there is bound to be some oversight and mistakes found (and if you find some questionable listings, please send any corrections to the editor in care of this publisher), but rest assured this is the most complete checklist of all T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents appearances to date.

The T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Files

A Complete Checklist of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents

The Curious Background of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents Wallace Wood has been frequently credited as being the creator of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents (abbreviated throughout this volume as “T-Agents,” in deference to the typesetter, who would otherwise wear out the period key!) and this same tome is no exception. But, in truth, creative minds other than just Woody were involved in formulating concepts and characters within the series. In addition, there have been other influences—some from outside comics— which have made their ways into the respective origins of our heroes, a few revealed many years after the initial appearances. Longtime pop-culture fans can immediately recognize the archetypical basis for numerous characters in T-Agents: • Though sans cape and flying ability, Dynamo is reminiscent of the Man of Steel, Superman, by way of a Hourman-like story device—albeit Thunderbelt in place of a pill—granting super-powers only for a limited period • With cloak, invisibility, capability to possess other humanoid vessels, and otherworldly skin color, NoMan has The Spectre written all over him, with a nod to Robotman • Menthor, a bad guy forced to be good by a cybernetic mask, is an inverse of the Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde tale, with a mind-controlling helmet in the Doctor Fate mold • Who else but The Flash provided a template for super-speedster, Lightning, although the agent has his own disability of dying a little every time he uses his powers • A modern-day Dragon Lady best describes Iron Maiden

• The Raven is a generic soaring hero, à là Hawkman, though one with a hidden jet-pack • T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Squad, minus Kitten, might be mistaken for a red-clad version of the Blackhawks (only without one airplane per member)… or the cliché characters of virtually every single World War II movie made up to that time • Andor, the tragic anti-hero who sojourned through the titles, perhaps can be described as a Tarzan knock-off (only raised by malevolent Subterraneans, not affectionate apes), by way of Doc Savage, if one plagued with Job-like tribulations As for actual development of the characters, memories of some Wood associates differ. “Dynamo was a mutual creation,” Len Brown told Christopher Irving in CBA V.1, #14. “I named the character because of the belt. I was going to call him Thunderbolt, and have him wear a ‘Thunderbelt.’… I remember maybe even suggesting Thunder Riders, and Wally suggested T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. My hero’s name was Thunderbolt, and Wally changed it to Dynamo… originally the name of the villain).” (Irving added, “Interestingly, Dynamo is mistakenly referred to as ‘Thunderbolt’ in one panel of the character’s debut story.”) As homage to his young friend, Woody gave the civilian name of T-Agents leader Dynamo, Leonard Brown. Larry Ivie, sometime Wood assistant, remembers being the one —simultaneously but separate from Brown—to come up with “The Thunderbolt“ (as well as compatriots “The Thunderbird” and “The Thundervision”), as well as quite a few other aspects of the series, including the name of the group and being the one to define the acronym. The name Dynamo was substituted because, Ivie says, Wood was concerned with DC’s Western hero, Johnny Thunder. (Ivie’s extensive comments are in the “T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Artists” section.) While he says the name NoMan, chosen by Wood, was taken from the stories of Homer, the character’s ability to transfer consciousness from one body to another was Ivie’s concept. But Russ Jones, another Wood assistant from the ’60s, recalls, “Wood’s love for [science-fiction author] A.E. Van Vogt gave birth to NoMan; [Vogt’s novel] The World of Null-A. Woody loved ol’ A.E., [and] the Null-A books were his very favorites. The hero [of Null-A] switched bodies; the origin of NoMan.” Disagreements over who specifically originated what will doubtless go on, as new details may also emerge, but regardless, few of his associates would argue that the one, truly creative powerhouse behind T-Agents was no one less than the late, great Wallace Wood.

T.H.U.N.D.E.R. AGENTS (TOWER) #1 NOVEMBER 1965 COVER: Wallace Wood THUNDER: “First Encounter” 4 PGS. ART: Wallace Wood SCRIPT: Larry Ivie Dynamo: “Menace of the Iron Fog” 12 PGS. ART: Wallace Wood SCRIPT: Len Brown & Larry Ivie NoMan: “THUNDER Agent NoMan” 10 PGS. ART: Reed Crandall (with Wallace Wood) SCRIPT: Larry Ivie NoMan: “Face to Face” (text) 2 pgs. WRITTEN BY Larry Ivie Menthor: “The Enemy Within” 12 PGS. ART: Gil Kane, George Tuska & Mike Esposito SCRIPT: Lou Silverstone THUNDER Squad: “THUNDER Squad” 10 PGS. ART: Mike Sekowsky & Frank Giacoia SCRIPT: Larry Ivie T-Agents: “At the Mercy of Iron Maiden”10 PGS. ART: Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins SCRIPT: Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins

#2 JAN. 1966 COVER: W. Wood & D. Adkins Dynamo: “Dynamo Battles Dynavac”13 PGS. ART: W. Wood & Richard Bassford/W. Wood SCRIPT: Len Brown NoMan: “In the Warlord’s Power” 10 PGS. ART: Dick Ayers/Wallace Wood & Joe Orlando Menthor: “Menthor” 10 PGS. ART: Sekowsky/Giacoia SCRIPT: Lou Silverstone Dynamo: “D-Day for Dynamo” 13 PGS. ART: W. Wood & D. Adkins/Wood & Coleman THUNDER Squad: “On the Double” 10 PGS. ART: Mike Sekowsky/Frank Giacoia SCRIPT: Lou Silverstone Junior THUNDER Agents: (text) 2 PGS. ART: Mike Sekowsky TEXT: Lou Silverstone #3 MARCH 1966 COVER: Wallace Wood Dynamo: “…Battles the Subterraneans” 10 PGS. ART: W. Wood & D. Adkins/Wood & Coleman NoMan: “…Faces the Threat of the Amazing Vibraman” 10 PGS. Art: John Giunta/W. Wood & Tony Coleman

SCRIPT: Bill Pearson Dynamo: “The Red Dragon” 10 PGS. ART: W. Wood & D. Adkins/Wood & Coleman THUNDER Squad: “Invaders from the Deep” 10 PGS. ART: Sekowsky/Giacoia SCRIPT: Lou Silverstone Dynamo/Menthor: “Dynamo vs. Menthor” 10 PGS. ART: W. Wood & D. Adkins/Wood & Coleman SCRIPT: Lou Silverstone (?) Dynamo: PIN-UP 1 PG. ART: Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins/W. Wood NoMan: PIN-UP 1 PG. ART: Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins/W. Wood The Thunderbelt: PIN-UP 1 PG. ART: Wood & Adkins (or Ayers?)/W. Wood Menthor: PIN-UP 1 PG. ART: Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins/W. Wood THUNDER Squad: PIN-UP 1 PG. ART: Wood & Adkins (or Sekowsky?)/Wood LETTERS 2 PGS.

#4 APRIL 1966 COVER: R. Crandall/W. Wood Dynamo: “Master of Evolution” 12 PGS. ART: Wood & Adkins/Wood, Adkins & Coleman SCRIPT: Len Brown NoMan: “The Synthetic Stand-ins” 10 PGS. ART: Sekowsky/Giacoia SCRIPT: Steve Skeates T-Agents: “The Deadly Dust” 10 PGS. ART: Sekowsky/Giacoia SCRIPT: Steve Skeates Dynamo: “Return of the Iron Maiden” 10 PGS. ART: Reed Crandall/Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins Menthor: “The Great Hypno” 11 PGS. ART: John Giunta/W. Wood & T. Coleman SCRIPT: Lou Silverstone NoMan in Action: PIN-UP 1 PG. Art: W. Wood & D. Adkins/Wood & Coleman The Origin of THUNDER: PIN-UP 1 PG. ART: W. Wood & D. Adkins/Wood & Coleman LETTERS 2 PGS. #5 JUNE 1966 COVER: Wood/Wood & Adkins Dynamo: “Dynamo and the Golem” 10 PGS. ART: Reed Crandall/W. Wood & D. Adkins

NoMan: “In the Caverns of Demo” 10 PGS. ART: Gil Kane/Wallace Wood & Tony Coleman SCRIPT: Bill Pearson Lightning: “Return of Baron Van Kampf” 10 PGS. ART: Sekowsky/Giacoia SCRIPT: Steve Skeates Menthor: “…vs. The Entrancer” 10 PGS. ART: John Giunta SCRIPT: Lou Silverstone T-Agents: “Double for Dynamo” 14 PGS. ART: Wood & Adkins/Wood & Coleman SCRIPT: Steve Skeates Lightning: PIN-UP ART: Dan Adkins 1 PG. LETTERS 2 PGS. #6 JULY 1966 COVER: Wood & Adkins/Wood Dynamo: “Dynamo & the Sinister Agents of the Red Star” 14 PGS. ART: W. Wood & D. Adkins/Wood & Adkins Lightning: “Origin of the Warp Wizard” 11 PGS. ART: Sekowsky/Giacoia SCRIPT: Steve Skeates T-Agents: “THUNDER vs. Demo” 10 PGS. ART: Giunta/Wood & Adkins Menthor: “The Carnival of Death” 10 PGS.

ART: J. Giunta/Carl Hubbell SCRIPT: L. Silverstone NoMan: “To Fight Alone” 10 PGS. ART: Steve Ditko SCRIPT: Steve Skeates #7 AUGUST 1966 COVER: Wood & Adkins Dynamo: “Wanted: Leonard Brown, Code Name ‘Dynamo’, Suspicion of Treason”10 PGS. ART: Wood, Adkins & Ralph Reese/Wood & Adkins Lightning: “Warp Wizard’s Revenge” 10 PGS. ART: Sekowsky/Giacoia SCRIPT: Steve Skeates T-Agents: “Subterranean Showdown”10 PGS. ART: George Tuska NoMan: “To Be or Not to Be” 10 PGS. ART: John Giunta/Sal Trapani SCRIPT: Bill Pearson Menthor: “A Matter of Life and Death” 10 PGS. LAYOUTS: Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins SCRIPT: Wood & Adkins TIGHT PENCILS: S. Ditko INKS: Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins The Iron Maiden: PIN-UP 1 PG. ART: W. Wood & D. Adkins/Wallace Wood LETTERS 2 PGS.

#8 SEPTEMBER 1966 COVER: Wallace Wood Dynamo: “Thunder in the Dark” 10 PGS. ART: Wood, Adkins & Reese/Wood & Adkins NoMan: “Pyramid of the Warlords” 10 PGS. ART: John Giunta/Joe Giella SCRIPT: Bill Pearson Lightning: “The Blue Alien” 10 PGS. ART: Sekowsky/Giacoia SCRIPT: Steve Skeates Raven: “Enter… The Raven” 10 PGS. ART: George Tuska SCRIPT: Steve Skeates T-Agents: “Final Encounter” 11 PGS. ART: Dan Adkins/Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins The Overlord: PIN-UP 1 PG. ART: W. Wood & Ralph Reese/Wallace Wood LETTERS 2 PGS. #9 OCTOBER 1966 COVER: John Giunta/Wood Dynamo: “Corporal Dynamo, U.S.A.” 10 PGS. Art: John Giunta/Wallace Wood Lightning: “Andor” 10 PGS. ART: M. Sekowsky/F. Giacoia (ODD PAGES), Joe Giella (EVEN PAGES)

NoMan: “Secret of Scorpion Island” 10 PGS. ART: John Giunta T-Agents: “The Black Box of Doom” 10 PGS. ART: Dan Adkins/Chic Stone Raven: “…Battles Mayven the Poet” 11 PGS. ART: Manny Stallman SCRIPT: Manny Stallman LETTERS 2 PGS. #10 NOV. ’66 COVER: Al Williamson & Wood/Wood Dynamo: “Operation Armageddon” 10 PGS. ART: Wallace Wood Lightning: “The Air Laser” 10 PGS. ART: Mike Sekowsky/Joe Giella (ODD PAGES), Frank Giacoia (EVEN PAGES) NoMan/Andor: “Three Deeds of Evil” 10 PGS. ART: Ogden Whitney T-Agents: “Kitten or Killer?” 10 PGS. ART: George Tuska Raven: “The Return of Mayven” 10 PGS. ART: Manny Stallman SCRIPT: Manny Stallman 2 PGS. LETTERS

COVER: Wallace Wood #11 MARCH 1967 Dynamo: “The Death of Dynamo” 10 PGS. ART: Dan Adkins/Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins Lightning: “Lightning vs. The Vortex”10 PGS. ART: Sekowsky/Giacoia SCRIPT: Steve Skeates NoMan: “The Trap” 10 PGS. ART: John Giunta SCRIPT: Steve Skeates T-Agents: “Understudy for Dynamo” 10 PGS. ART: Chic Stone Raven: “The Case of Jacob Einhorn” 10 PGS. ART: Manny Stallman SCRIPT: Manny Stallman LETTERS 2 PGS. #12 APRIL 1967 COVER: Wallace Wood Dynamo: “Strength is Not Enough” 10 PGS. ART: Steve Ditko/Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins Lightning: “Speed Demon” 10 PGS. ART: Sekowsky/Giacoia SCRIPT: Steve Skeates NoMan: “The Rock” 10 PGS. Art: John Giunta/John Giunta & Frank Giacoia T-Agents: “The Road to Spider HQ” 10 PGS. ART: Mike Sekowsky/F. Giacoia & J. Giella SCRIPT: Steve Skeates

Raven: “The Raven Battles the Storm Troopers of Xochimilco” 10 PGS. ART: Manny Stallman SCRIPT: Manny Stallman LETTERS 2 PGS. #13 JUNE 1967 COVER: Wallace Wood Dynamo: “A Bullet for Dynamo” 10 PGS. ART: Dan Adkins/Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins NoMan: “Escape from Destiny” 10 PGS. ART: Ogden Whitney Lightning: “Quick and the Changing” 10 PGS. ART: Chic Stone SCRIPT: Steve Skeates T-Agents: “The Black Helmet” 10 PGS. ART: George Tuska Undersea Agents: “Second Atlantis” 10 PGS. ART: Paul Reinman SCRIPT: Steve Skeates LETTERS 2 PGS. #14 JULY 1967 COVER: Gil Kane Dynamo/Andor: “Return Engagement” 10 PGS. LAYOUTS: W. Wood TIGHT PENCILS: Steve Ditko INKS: Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins Lightning: “To Fight is to Die” 10 PGS.

ART: Chic Stone SCRIPT: Steve Skeates NoMan: “On the Other Side” 10 PGS. ART: John Giunta SCRIPT: Steve Skeates Raven: “Darkly Sees the Prophet” 10 PGS. ART: Gil Kane SCRIPT: GiI Kane T-Agents: “The Fist of Zeus” 10 PGS. ART: George Tuska LETTERS 2 PGS. #15 SEPTEMBER 1967 COVER: Gil Kane Dynamo/Andor: “Collision Course” 10 PGS. ART: Ralph Reese(?)/Wally Wood Lightning: “While Our Hero Sleeps…” 10 PGS. ART: Chic Stone SCRIPT: Steve Skeates NoMan:“Starflight to the Assassin Planet”12PGS. ART: Ogden Whitney SCRIPT: Bill Pearson Dynamo: “Hail to the Chief” 10 PGS. ART: John Giunta/Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins Weed: “Dig We Must” 10 PGS. ART: George Tuska NoMan In Action: PIN-UP (r: TA #4) 1 PG. NoMan: PIN-UP (r: TA #3) 1 PG.

#16 OCTOBER 1967 COVER: Wallace Wood Dynamo/Andor: “Dream of Doom” 10 PGS. ART: Steve Ditko NoMan: “One of Our Androids is Missing”10 PGS. ART: Gil Kane/Kane & Jack Abel (ABEL PGS.1-5) Lightning: “The Whirliwig” 10 PGS. ART: Chic Stone SCRIPT: Steve Skeates T-Agents: “The End of the THUNDER Agents?” ART: George Tuska Dynamo: “A Slight Case of Combat Fatigue”10PGS. ART: Adkins & Wood/Wood & Adkins #17 DEC. 1967 COVER: Ogden Whitney?/Wood T-Agents: “First Encounter” (r: TA #1) 4 PGS. Dynamo: “Return of the Hyena” 10 PGS. ART: Wallace Wood & Ralph Reese/Wood NoMan: “The Locusts are Coming” 10 PGS. ART: Ogden Whitney Weed: “Weed Out West” 10 PGS. ART: George Tuska Dynamo: “Put Them All Together They Spell S.P.I.D.E.R.” ART: C. Stone 10 PGS.

#18 SEPTEMBER 1968 COVER: Reed Crandall Dynamo: “…Meets the Amazing Mr. Mek” ART: Steve Ditko 10 PGS. NoMan: “The Sinister Schemes of Professor Reverse” ART: O. Whitney 10 PGS. Dynamo: “The Arena” 10 PGS. ART: Reed Crandall Dynamo: “The Secret of the Abominable Snowmen” ART: Chic Stone 10 PGS. Menthor: “A Matter of Life and Death” (r: TA #7) 10 PGS. No-Man In Action: PIN-UP (r: TA #4) 1 PG. #19NOV. ’68 COVER: VIGNETTES TA #7,8,14&16 Dynamo: “Half an Hour of Power” 10 PGS. ART: Wally Wood & Ralph Reese/Wally Wood Dynamo: “Dynamo vs. The Ghost” 10 PGS. ART: Paul Reinman Dynamo: “All-Girl Gang” 10 PGS. ART: George Tuska NoMan: “A Matter of Transmitters” 10 PGS. ART: Paul Reinman

“Food, the Cycle of the Sea” 2 PGS. ART: Ray Bailey “Underwater Exploration” 2 PGS. ART: John Giunta TEXT 2 PGS. #2 APRIL ’66 COVER: M. Sekowsky/F. Giacoia “Return of Dr. Fang” 10 PGS. ART: Ray Bailey/Sheldon Moldoff “The Secret of the Flying Saucers” 11 PGS. ART: Ray Bailey/Sheldon Moldoff “Double Jeopardy” 11 PGS. ART: Ray Bailey/S. Moldoff (MOLDOFF SPLASH) “The Richest Man in the World” 11 PGS. UNDERSEA AGENT (TOWER) ART: Ray Bailey/Sheldon Moldoff 10 PGS. #1 JANUARY 1966 COVER: Ray Bailey “Buried Beneath the Sea” “Sink the Carrier Gettysburg” 14 PGS. ART: Mike Sekowsky/Frank Giacoia (EVEN PAGES), Joe Giella (ODD PAGES) ART: Ray Bailey 1 PG. “Undersea Agent Meets Dr. Fang” 14 PGS. “Mysteries of the Deep” ART: ? ART: Ray Bailey 1 PG. “The Adventures of Skooby Doolittle” 9 PGS. “Ocean Oddities” ART: ? ART: Ray Bailey Lightning: “Speed Demon”(r: TA #12)10PGS. Dynamo: PIN-UP (r: TA #3) 1 PG. #20 NOVEMBER 1969 COVER: Chic Stone Dynamo: “The Origin of THUNDER Agent Dynamo” 4 pgs. ART: Chic Stone Dynamo: “Return of the Iron Maiden” (r: TA #4) 10 PGS. NoMan: “Threat of the Amazing Vibraman” (r: TA #3) 10 PGS. T-Agents:”The Deadly Dust”(r: TA #4)10 PGS. Dynamo: “The Red Dragon”(r: TA #3)10PGS.

#3 JUNE ’66 COVER: M. Sekowsky/F. Giacoia “To Save a King” 14 PGS. ART: Ray Bailey SCRIPT: Steve Skeates “At the Mercy of Dr. Mayhem” 16 PGS. ART: Ray Bailey SCRIPT: Steve Skeates “The Panther Whales” 10 PGS. ART: Mike Sekowsky/Frank Giacoia “The Will Warp” 10 PGS. ART: Gil Kane SCRIPT: Steve Skeates “True or False” 7 PGS. ART: John Giunta SCRIPT: Steve Skeates “Submarines” 2 PGS. ART: John Giunta #4 AUGUST 1966 COVER: Gil Kane “Introducing Dolph” 14 PGS. ART: Ray Bailey “To Save a Monster” 13 PGS. ART: Gil Kane SCRIPT: Steve Skeates “The Haunted Shipwreck” 14 PGS. ART: Ray Bailey “Bait-Can Caper” 10 PGS. ART: Frank Bolle SCRIPT: Steve Skeates 1 PG. LETTERS #5 OCTOBER 1966 COVER: Gil Kane “Born Is a Warrior” 20 PGS.

ART: Gil Kane SCRIPT: Gil Kane “Death Darts from the Ocean Floor” 14 PGS. ART: Ray Bailey Merman: “Merman” (PART ONE) 10 PGS. ART: Manny Stallman Merman: “The Showdown on Venue” (PART TWO) 10 PGS. ART: Manny Stallman LETTERS 1 PG. #6 MARCH 1967 COVER: Wallace Wood “Doomsday in the Depths” 20 PGS. ART: Gil Kane SCRIPT: Gil Kane “The Sea Stalag” 10 PGS. ART: Ray Bailey Merman: “Lobster Island” 10 PGS. ART: Ray Bailey LETTERS 2 PGS. DYNAMO (TOWER) #1 AUGUST 1966 Cover: Wallace Wood “Menace from the Moon” 14 PGS. ART: Dan Adkins/Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins “A Day in the Life of Dynamo” 10 PGS. ART: Mike Sekowsky/Frank Giacoia

“Back to the Stone Age” 10 PGS. ART: Reed Crandall/Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins “Dynamo Meets the Amazing Andor” 10 PGS. ART: Steve Ditko/Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins Weed: “Wonder Weed, Super-Hero” 10 PGS. ART: John Giunta #2 OCTOBER 1966 COVER: Wallace Wood “The Web of S.P.I.D.E.R.” 10 PGS. ART: Chic Stone/Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins “S.P.I.D.E.R. Strikes at Sea” 10 PGS. ART: Dan Adkins/Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins “The Priceless Counterfeit” 10 PGS. ART: Dick Ayers/Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins “Between Two Enemies” 10 PGS. ART: Mike Sekowsky/Chic Stone Weed: “The Hyena” 10 PGS. ART: George Tuska Red-Star: PIN-UP 1 PG. ART: Mike Sekowsky/Mike Esposito(?) Andor the Humanoid: PIN-UP 1 PG. ART: Dan Adkins #3 MARCH 1967 COVER: Wallace Wood “The Unseen Enemy” 10 PGS. ART: W. Wood & D. Adkins/Wood & Adkins “Bad Day for Leonard Brown” 10 PGS. ART: Chic Stone SCRIPT: Ralph Reese “The Feats of Samson” 10 PGS. ART: Chic Stone “Honeymoon or High Noon?” 10 PGS. ART: Paul Reinman Weed: “Weed vs. THUNDER” 10 PGS. ART: George Tuska LETTERS 2 PGS. #4 JUNE 1967 COVER: Wallace Wood “The Maze” 10 PGS. ART: Dan Adkins/Wallace Wood “The Secret Word Is…” 10 PGS. ART: Dan Adkins/Wallace Wood “Dynamo’s Day Off” ART: Chic Stone 10 PGS. “The Weakest Man in the World” 10 PGS. ART: Chic Stone

Weed: “Once Upon a Time” 10 PGS. ART: Steve Ditko/W. Wood SCRIPT: W. Wood LETTERS 2 PGS. NoMAN (TOWER) #1 NOV. 1966 COVER: Al Williamson/W. Wood “Fingers of Fate” 10 PGS. ART: Gil Kane/Paul Reinman “Secret in the Sky” ART: John Giunta 10 PGS. Lightning: “Warp Wizard’s Master Plan” 10 PGS. ART: Chic Stone SCRIPT: Steve Skeates “Trapped in the Past” 10 PGS. ART: Ogden Whitney SCRIPT: Steve Skeates “The Good Subterranean” 10 PGS. ART: Ogden Whitney #2 MARCH 1967 COVER: Wallace Wood “Dynamo vs. NoMan” 10 PGS. ART: Ogden Whitney “The Weird Case of the Kiss of Death”10 PGS. ART: Ogden Whitney

Lightning: “The Web Tightens” 10 PGS. ART: Chic Stone SCRIPT: Steve Skeates “Target NoMan” 10 PGS. ART: Ogden Whitney “A Quick Change of Mind” 10 PGS. ART: Ogden Whitney SCRIPT: Steve Skeates PAPERBACK COLLECTIONS DYNAMO (TOWER) (#42-660) 1966 COVER: W. Wood (r) FRONTIS “Menace of Iron Fog” (r: TA #1)1 PG. “First Encounter”(r: TA #1) 12 PGS. “Menace of the Iron Fog”(r: TA #1) 34 PGS. “Noman Battles Spawns…” (r: TA #1) 27 PGS. “The Enemy Within” (r: TA #1) 35 PGS. “At the Mercy of Iron Maiden”(r: TA #1)29 PGS.

NoMAN (TOWER) (#42-672) 1966 COVER: Stone & Wood (r) “In the Warlord’s Power” (r: TA #2) 31 PGS. “NoMan Threat of Vibraman”(r: TA #2)29PGS. “The Synthetic Stand-Ins” (r: TA #4) 29 PGS. “NoMan in Action” (r: TA #3) 3 PGS. “In the Caverns of Demo” (r: TA #5) 30 PGS. BACK COVER: NoMan PIN-UP (r: TA #3) 1 PG. MENTHOR (TOWER) (#42-674) 1966 COVER: Ditko & Wood (r) “Menthor” (r: TA #2) 30 PGS. “Dynamo vs. Menthor” (r: TA #3) 29 PGS. “The Great Hypno” (r: TA #4) 33 PGS. “Menthor vs. Entrancer” (r: TA #4) 30 PGS. BACK COVER: Great Hypno splash (r: TA #4)1 PG. TERRIFIC TRIO (TOWER) (#42-687) 1966 COVER: Dan Adkins (r) “Dynamo Battles the Subterraneans” (r: TA #3) 28 PGS.

“Dynamo Battles Dynavac” (r: TA #2)39 PGS. “The Carnival of Death” (r: TA #6) 31 PGS. “To Fight Alone” (r: TA #6) 28 PGS.

JCP FEATURES (JOHN C. PRODUCTIONS) #1 DECEMBER 1981 COVER: Mark Texeira THUNDER Agents: “Prelude: “The THUNDER Chronicles” 7 PGS. ART: Lou Manna/Mark Texeira & Pat Gabriele PLOT: Lou Manna SCRIPT: Chris Adames “Chapter One: The THUNDER Chronicles” 5 PGS. ART: Mark Texeira/Pat Gabriele SCRIPT: Kevin Duane “Chapter Two: The THUNDER Chronicles” 5 PGS. ART: Mark Texeira/Pat Gabrielle SCRIPT: Kevin Duane & Pat Gabriele “Chapter Three: The THUNDER Chronicles” 4 PGS. ART: Pat Gabrielle PLOT: Pat Gabriele SCRIPT: Richard J. Lynn “Chapter Four: The THUNDER Chronicles” 6 PGS.

ART: Pat Gabrielle/Mark Texeira PLOT: Pat Gabriele SCRIPT: Richard Lynn “Chapter Five: The THUNDER Chronicles” 4 PGS. ART: Pat Gabrielle PLOT: Pat Gabriele SCRIPT: Richard Lynn “Chapter Six: The THUNDER Chronicles” 5 PGS. ART: P. Gabrielle/M. Texeira PLOT: Pat Gabriele

HALL OF FAME FEATURING THE T.H.U.N.D.E.R. AGENTS(JOHN C.)

#1 MAY 1983 COVER: Lou Manna/Rich Buckler “Carbon Copy” (TEXT) by John Carbonaro 1 PG. “First Encounter” (r: TA #1) 4 PGS. “Menace of the Iron Fog” (r: TA #1) 12 PGS. “THUNDER Agent NoMan” (r: TA #1) 10 PGS. T.H.U.N.D.E.R. AGENTS (JOHN C.) “The Enemy Within” (PARTIAL r: TA #1) 5 PGS. Vol. 2, #1 MAY 1983 “At the Mercy of Iron Maiden”(SPLASH r: TA #1)1PG. COVER: Lou Manna/Willie Blyberg #2 AUGUST 1983 COVER: Steve Ditko “Carbon Copy” (TEXT) by John Carbonaro 1 PG. “Carbon Copy” (TEXT) by John Carbonaro 1 PG. T-Agents: “The Invasion Begins” 28 PGS. “At the Mercy of Iron Maiden”(r: TA #1) 10 PGS. “T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Control” LETTERS 1 PG. “The T.H.U.N.D.E.R. File” LETTERS 1 PG. ART: Lou Manna/Willie Blyberg “In the Warlord’s Power” (r: TA #2) 10 PGS. SCRIPT: Chris Adames “The Enemy Within” NEW SPLASH 1 PG. Vol. 2, #2 JANUARY 1984 COVER: Willie Blyberg Art: B.C. Boerner/Steve Austin “Carbon Copy” (TEXT) by John Carbonaro 1 PG. “The Enemy Within” (PARTIAL r: TA #1) 7 PGS. T-Agents: “Battle in D.C.” 20 PGS. “Dynamo Battles Dynavac”(SPLASH r: TA #2) 1PG. ART: Lou Manna & P. Bonanno/Willie Blyberg #3 DECEMBER 1983 COVER: Bob Layton SCRIPT: Charlie Boatner “Carbon Copy” (TEXT) by John Carbonaro 1 PG.

“Dynamo Battles Dynavac”(r: TA #2) 13 PGS. “Fingers of Fate” (r: NoMan #1) 10 PGS. “The Enemy Within” (PARTIAL r: TA #1) 8 PGS. “NoMan in Action” PIN-UP (r: TA #4) 1 PG. “Menthor”(retitled “Turnabout”) (PARTIAL r: TA #2) 5 PGS.

WALLY WOOD’S T.H.U.N.D.E.R. AGENTS(DELUXE)

#1 NOVEMBER 1984 COVER: George Pérez “Quality” (TEXT) by David M. Singer 1 PG. The Raven: “Code Name: The Raven” 10 PGS. ART: George Pérez/Dave Cockrum SCRIPT: Dann Thomas JUSTICE MACHINE Lightning: PIN-UP ART: Jerry Ordway 1 PG. ANNUAL (TEXAS COMICS) 1 PG. #1 ’83 COVER: Michael Golden/Mike Gustovich NoMan: PIN-UP ART: Steve Ditko 10 PGS. T-Agents: “An Echo of T.H.U.N.D.E.R.”43 PGS. Menthor: “A Change of Mind” ART: Keith Giffen/Rick Bryant ART: Bill Reinhold/Jeff Dee & B. Anderson SCRIPT: Bill Loebs SCRIPT: Stephen Perry Iron Maiden: PIN-UP ART: Stan Drake 1 PG. BLUE RIBBON COMICS (ARCHIE) Dynamo: PIN-UP ART: Pat Broderick 1 PG. Vol. 2, #12 SEPT. 1984 COVER: Willie Blyberg 20 PGS. THUNDER Agents: “Counterattack”18 PGS. THUNDER Agents: “Untitled” A RT : Dave Cockrum S CRIPT : Steve Englehart ART: Paul Bonanno(w/C. Boatner)/Willie Blyberg SCRIPT: C. Boatner PLOT ASSIST: John Carbonaro “Matter of Life & Death”(PARTIAL r: TA #7) 1 PG. NoMan: “The Making Of A Monster” 10 PGS. “Only the Good Die Young” (TEXT) by David M. Singer? 1 PG. ART: Steve Ditko/Willie Blyberg SCRIPT: C. Boatner PLOT ASSIST: John Carbonaro W. Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #2 COVER 1 PG.

#2 JANUARY 1985 COVER: George Pérez “Potpourri” (TEXT) by David M. Singer 1 PG. The Raven: “Code Name: The Raven” 10 PGS. ART: George Pérez/George Pérez & Bill Wray SCRIPT: Dann Thomas “L.E.T.T.E.R.S.” LETTERS 2 PGS. Lightning: “And What a Time It Was” 10 PGS. ART: Keith Giffen/Rick Bryant SCRIPT: Tom & Mary Bierbaum Iron Maiden: PIN-UP ART: George Pérez 2 PGS. T-Agents: “When Lightning Strikes” 20 PGS. ART: Dave Cockrum/Murphy Anderson PLOT: S. Englehart DIALOGUE: David M. Singer Menthor: PIN-UP ART: George Pérez 1 PG. W. Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #3 COVER 1 PG. #3 NOVEMBER 1985 COVER: George Pérez “Welcome Back” (TEXT) by David M. Singer 1 PG. The Iron Maiden: “The Iron Maiden” 20 PGS. ART: Dave Cockrum/Murphy Anderson SCRIPT: Dave Cockrum PLOT: David M. Singer

Phoenicia: PIN-UP ART: John Workman 1 PG. 10 PGS. Lightning: “Blood and Anarchy” ART: Keith Giffen/Rick Bryant SCRIPT: T. & M. Bierbaum CO-PLOT: Keith Giffen 4 PGS. “L.E.T.T.E.R.S.” LETTERS NoMan: “Work…Work…Work…” 12 PGS. ART: Steve Ditko/Greg Theakston SCRIPT: Stephen Perry #4 FEBRUARY 1986 COVER: George Pérez “Deadline Blues” (TEXT) by David M. Singer 1 PG. The Raven: “The Night the Lights Went Out on Wall Street” 10 PGS. ART: G. Pérez/Dan Adkins SCRIPT: Dann Thomas “L.E.T.T.E.R.S.” LETTERS 2 PGS. Lightning: “A 101 Things to Do with a Dead President” 10 PGS. ART: Keith Giffen/Rick Bryant SCRIPT: T. & M. Bierbaum CO-PLOT: Keith Giffen NoMan: “An Alien Nation” 10 PGS. ART: Steve Ditko/Greg Theakston SCRIPT: Steve Perry THUNDER Agents: “Well, I Guess I AM That Kind of Boy” 10 PGS. ART: Rich Buckler SCRIPT: David M. Singer PLOT: Brian Marshall #5 OCT.’86 COVER: Mike Machlan & Jerry Ordway “Family” (TEXT) by David M. Singer 1 PG. T-Agents: “THUNDER on the Moon” 15 PGS. ART: Jerry Ordway SCRIPT: Roger McKenzie “L.E.T.T.E.R.S.” LETTERS 3 PGS. Lightning: “Kiss of the Gauntlet” 8 PGS. ART: Keith Giffen/Rick Bryant SCRIPT: T. & M. Bierbaum CO-PLOT: Keith Giffen Dynamo: “Look! Up in the Sky! It’s a Bird… It’s a Plane… It’s…” 10 PGS. ART: Mike Harris/José Marzan, Jr. SCRIPT: David M. Singer Dynamo: “Refuge From 8 PGS. Tomorrow Eeeeek*” ART: John Statema & Ron Lim/Mike Witherby SCRIPT: Anthony Pereira LETTERS 3 PGS.

BORIS THE BEAR (DARK HORSE) #11 JUNE 1987 COVER: James Dean Smith “Who in THUNDER Are All Those Agents?”14PGS. ART: James Dean Smith/Dan Adkins SCRIPT: Mike Richardson

THUNDER BUNNY (APPLE/WARP) #11 SEPT. 1987 COVER: Brian Buniak “T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Bunny” 30 PGS. ART: Brian Buniak (pgs. 1-10, 21-30 Gary Kato (pgs. 11-20) SCRIPT: Martin L. Griem THUNDER (SOLSON PUBLICATIONS) #1 1987 COVER: James E. Lyle/Ron Wilber “Acknowledgments”(TEXT) by M.Sawyer2 PGS. THUNDER: “Rumble” 32 PGS. ART: James E. Lyle/Ron Wilber SCRIPT: Michael Sawyer

OMNI COMIX (PENTHOUSE INTERNATIONAL) #3 OCT. 1995 COVER: Rich Corben & M. Texeira T-Agents: PIN-UP ART: Mark Texeira 2 PGS. T-Agents: PIN-UP ART: Dave Gibbons 1 PG. T-Agents: “Cold Warriors Never Die” 27 PGS. ART: Paul Gulacy/Terry Austin SCRIPT: George Caragonne & Tom Thornton NoMan: PIN-UP (r: Hall of Fame #2 COVER)

T.H.U.N.D.E.R. AGENTS ARCHIVE EDITIONS (DC COMICS) Vol. 1 DECEMBER 2002 ISBN #1-4011200-1 COVER: Wallace Wood (r: TA #1 COVER DETAIL) Hardcover full-color reprinting of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1-4. INTRODUCTION by Robert Klein & Michael Uslan. 209 PGS.

ISBN #1-56389970-1 Vol. 2 JUNE 2003 COVER: Wallace Wood (r: TA #7 COVER DETAIL) Hardcover full-color reprinting of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #5-7, Dynamo #1. INTRODUCTION by Robert Klein & Michael Uslan. 224 PGS.

Vol. 3 MARCH 2004 ISBN #1-4012001-5X COVER: W. Wood (r: Dynamo #2 COVER DETAIL) Hardcover full-color reprinting of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #8-10, Dynamo #2. INTRODUCTION by Bill Pearson. 209 PGS. Vol. 4 MAY 2004 ISBN #1-4012015-20 COVER: W. Wood (r: Dynamo #3 COVER DETAIL) Hardcover full-color reprinting of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #11, NoMan #1-2, Dynamo #3. INTRODUCTION by Bhob Stewart. 216 PGS. Vol. 5 JANUARY 2005 ISBN #1-4012016-44 COVER: Wallace Wood (r: TA #12 COVER DETAIL) Hardcover full-color reprinting of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #12-14, Dynamo #4. INTRODUCTION by Bill Schelly. 216 PGS. Vol. 6 NOVEMBER 2005 ISBN #UNKNOWN COVER: Wallace Wood (r: TA #16 COVER DETAIL) Hardcover full-color reprinting of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #15-20 (minus reprints). INTRODUCTION by Len Brown. 244 PGS. Editor’s Note: Many thanks to all who contributed to this checklist, especially Dan Adkins, Mark Evanier, Steve Skeates, Larry Ivie, Bill Pearson, Jeff Clem, and Al Gordon

A Man Called Wood

Wallace Allan Wood was born into a creative and talented family, on June 17, 1927, in Menahga, Minnesota, and he later told interviewer Shel Dorf, “I was born in Minnesota, but I grew up in Wisconsin and Michigan.” In these rural environs, the boy and his older brother, Glenn, reveled in the newspaper adventure comic strips of the Depression-era—Flash Gordon, Prince Valiant, Captain Easy, and Terry and the Pirates—and the siblings would while away the hours endlessly drawing. (Tellingly, by 1942, Wallace would study the increasingly innovative storytelling of Will Eisner in The Spirit newspaper supplements.)To quote EC’s “Artist of the Issue” feature in Weird Science #12 [Mar. 1952], “[Wood] has worked as pin-boy, bus-boy, usher, dental lab assistant, printing plant apprentice, factory worker, lumber-jack, stevedore, and truck loader!” During World War II, Woody—who despised being called “Wally”—became a widely-traveled Merchant Marine and later a paratrooper in the 11th Airborne. Returning to the states after completing his service, the fledgling artist began making rounds of New York City’s comic book publishers, where in a lobby waiting a portfolio review, Woody had a chance—and fateful—meeting with fellow young artist, John Severin. The future EC contributors discovered mutual interests and John invited the newcomer to visit the studio he shared with Harvey Kurtzman and Will Elder. There the trio put Woody in contact with none other than Will Eisner, one of the young artist’s idols, which led to a short first stint on The Spirit, as letterer and eventually background inker. In 1948, Wallace enrolled in New York’s Cartoonists & Illustrators School, a veritable factory that pumped out innumerable comic book artists, courtesy of luminary instructors Burne Hogarth, Roy Krenkel, Jerry Robinson, and Paul Reinman. Attending the art school was a seminal event not only in his artistic development, but also in meeting an astounding array of talented fellow students. At C&I (later to be renamed the School of Visual Arts, which still thrives today), the young artist’s classmates included Al Williamson, Jack Abel, Dick Ayers, Marie Severin, Ross Andru, Mike Esposito, and future partner (and later science-fiction author) Harry Harrison. During the early Wood era, the artist contributed to a number of comics for various publishers (sometimes with Harrison or oft-partner Joe Orlando), among them Avon, Fox Comics, American Comics Group, Magazine Village, as well as perhaps his highest profile work at that time, returning to work for Eisner—this time as full-fledged artist—on three weeks worth of The Spirit (for the story-arc, one of the long-running series’ final storylines, “The Outer Space Spirit,” as referred to today). But in what would prove to be a most important event, it was during this time when young Wallace Wood began freelancing (initially with cohort Harrison) for Entertaining Comics, the struggling outfit run by publisher William Gaines and editor Al Feldstein. It was at EC Comics where the Wood legend was born. Proving versatile in virtually every genre, the artist particularly excelled at drawing the quintessential science-fiction comic book story, as well as becoming one of 42

Left: Prior to the character’s name change to Dynamo, original splash page intended for T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1. Art by Wallace Wood.

The Masterful Artist Behind T.H.U.N.D.E.R.

Harvey Kurtzman’s finest “finishers” on many of the best beloved Mad satires during its comic-book beginnings. The artist’s EC material (subsequently called by snooty fans—shades of Stardust Memories!— “Wally’s better, early stuff”) gave truth to the (albeit misspelled) phrase, one intended as a self-deprecating joke, “When better drawrings are drawrn… they’ll be drawrn by Wood. He’s real gone.” With his exceptional work at Gaines’ imprint, Wallace Wood would become one of the most significant influences on every stripe of cartoonist, and inspiring comics work in so many genres, whether humor, sci-fi, war, historical, or superhero. At EC, Wood became an American icon, or as close as a comic book artist could get in the Eisenhower years. After the mid-’50s Wertham/Kefauver/Comics Code debacle, which forced the closing of dozens of comics publishers (including the oppressors’ most sought-after target, horror/crime comics publisher EC Comics, which switched to producing Mad magazine), Woody would toil in just about every available venue then open to someone of his considerable talent: newspaper comic strips, magazine illustration, advertising work, trading-card design, pulp mag illos, and whatever scarce four-color funnybook work available during those lean years. No doubt, Woody’s frustrations over the inequities between struggling creative freelancers and comfortable “fat-cat” publishers started to emerge during the Mad magazine years. The humor publication was attaining unheard of circulation numbers, even with the departure of its genius creator, Harvey Kurtzman, and with those phenomenal sales, scads of wealth for the suits (and endless knockoffs by rivals), who reprinted the material in every conceivable form— over and over and over—and sold rights to innumerable foreign markets, all the while hogging growing media attention, profiting alone from the publicity. And what did the powers-that-be give in return to those artists and writers who produced such wildly popular content, work that was recycled into countless paperbacks, specials, hardcover books, and foreign editions? A one-time page rate, however “generous” for the time, plus the indignity of not having the original art pages returned to the artist. Surely, Wallace Wood began to realize the exploitation he and his peers suffered.

Another frustrated and brilliant cartoonist, who would continue to be bitter about the injustice ’til his death, Kurtzman did attempt quasi-creator-owned magazines after departing Mad, hoping to repeat his earlier success with the superbly over-produced Trump (published for a mere two issues by Hugh Hefner, a Kurtzman admirer awash with Playboy riches) and the tragically underproduced Humbug (financed by Harvey and his collaborative team of artists, in an early effort at independence), 1950s efforts to which Woody contributed. But the artist must have become increasingly cynical by witnessing former editor Kurtzman’s failure at achieving independence. Into the ’60s, Woody would work for Topps Bubble Gum (where he first met a young Leonard Brown, another future T-Agents cohort), as well as Galaxy magazine, as well as continuing as one of the “usual gang of idiots” at Mad. During that time, costumed super-heroes began to grow in popularity, reemerging as a profitable genre in the comic book business long after their 1940s’ heyday. And yet with the masked characters’ return, it is interesting to note how little of Woody’s work appears in the milieu until his work in the mid-’60s for Stan Lee. The artist’s masterful grasp of adventure was breathtaking, his anatomy spot-on (not to mention sensual), and combined with his commanding sense of storytelling, he was obviously a natural choice to delineate the exploits of DC and Marvel’s

I did as much of the art as I could. But by the time we had a Dynamo book, and a NoMan book, I was spread pretty thin. But it was fun.” He also told interviewer Shelf Dorf in The Buyer’s Guide #403 [Aug. 1, ’81], in response to a question whether the Tower deal was profitable, “It wasn’t that great, but I had a lot of freedom.” And why did the Tower Comics line close up shop? Woody told Pearson, “I ran into Harry Shorten years later, and asked him. He told me the books always made money. [But] he was forced out by his distributor, who also handled comics for a big company. I was glad to hear that my books weren’t a failure.” During the Tower years and for the remainder of his life, Woody would be assisted by an astonishing talented crew endlessly arriving and departing his studio. Bhob Stewart—himself a one-time assistant and editor of Against the Grain: Mad Artist Wallace Wood—attempted a list of Wood workers, including associates and those who shared space in his various studios, in Bhob’s book (which is slightly modified here by omitting his added references): “Jack Abel, Dan Adkins, Steve Austin, Richard Bassford, Michelle Brand, Roger Brand, Tim Battersby-Brent, Len Brown, Howard Chaykin, Sid Check, Tony Coleman, Nicola Cuti, Leo and Diane Dillon, Steve Ditko, Randy Elliott, Larry Hama, Harry Harrison, Wayne Howard, Peter Hsu, Larry Ivie, Russ Jones, Paul Kirchner, Bob Layton, Joe Orlando, Bill Pearson, Ralph Reese, Jack Robinson, Marty Rosenthal, Joe Rubinstein, Augie Scotto, Syd Shores, Dom Sileo, A.L. Sorois, John Stevens, Bhob Stewart, Muriel Wood, Tatjana Wood, and Mike Zeck.” The 1970s were a decade of steady decline for the artist (a chronic smoker and sometime speed freak) as his periodic struggles with alcoholism and depression—and eventual dire health condition—began to have an impact. His inability to support his family left his second marriage in shambles, as Woody found less and less work at the major publishers, and he even delved into pornography in attempting to make ends meet. But, ever the dreamer, the creator still retained his best concepts for his own benefit and continued to work diligently on creator-owned projects, including the graphic novel, The World of the Wizard King, the first of a projected series, and FOO, the Friends of Odkin, a Wood fan club established by the artist to subsidize living expenses while he devoted attention to Wizard King, but there just never seemed to be enough money. Still, Woody would

characters. (Of course, Woody may surely have resisted slaving for the industry’s paltry page rates, perhaps until lack of work or promise of increased pay lured him to the House of Ideas.) Wallace Wood’s full-fledged debut as a super-hero artist came in 1964, with a well-ballyhooed arrival as artist on Daredevil, and he also found additional jobs inking The Avengers, Tales of Suspense, and spot work on Fantastic Four. But in short order, after only seven issues as artist of “The Man Without Fear,” Woody would depart the Marvel Comics Group in ’65. Perhaps it was because the often-obstinate artist butted heads with demanding editor/art director/writer Stan Lee, or maybe it was an irresistible offer made by Tower Publishing’s Harry Shorten and Samm Schwartz (eager to jump into the super-hero game), enabling him to scratch an itch to form his own comic-book line-up, bringing in longtime pals to finally do super-heroes right. Whatever his reasons, Woody took on the Tower assignment as creator, writer, artist, art director, recruiter, and de facto editor of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents with obvious gusto and determination. Though a Hall of Fame’s worth of talent contributed mightily to the comic books, it will always be the name Wallace Wood most associated with Dynamo and company, given the overwhelming percentage of the ’60s T-Agents comics were produced by him and his army of assistants. T-Agents and its related titles would only last a few short years after the line’s introduction in late ’65, but the quality of art, playful writing, dramatic interludes, and the overall coolness of the characters obviously made for a lasting impact. Still, a lack of sales caused by Tower’s inability to be distributed adequately, and burdened by a market glut of costumed characters, must have dulled Woody’s enthusiasm, as he would soon be doing work for Harvey Comics, Warren Publications, King, Wham-O, DC, the Armed Services’ Overseas Weekly, and even (by the early ’70s) another stint at Marvel, as well as developing his ambitious, self-published effort, witzend. Of his Tower Comics experience, which occurred smack-dab in the middle of his professional career, Woody said very little for the record (as well as on any other subject, as the artist was a reluctant interview subject), but some comments do exist. When asked about the series, Woody said to Bill Pearson, “Harry Shorten called me when he started to publish comics, and I had a dream set-up. I created all the characters, wrote most of the stories, and drew most of the covers.

entertain company, sometimes shooting firearms for amusement by day, and playing folk songs for them on his guitar at night, proving himself a character more colorful than he ever created. (In later years, on a wall in his studio, the artist tacked up a sign with the legend: “There is only one Wally Wood and I’m him!”) Suffering a serious kidney ailment, despondent over the fact that his talent had evaporated, and refusing to be a burden to anyone, Wallace Allan Wood took his own life on Nov. 2, 1981. Though it was assuredly a tragic end of a brilliant artist, Woody did not live an entirely tragic life, and the legacy he left behind—the work—will be

remembered for eons to come. Wood’s tale is a cautionary one perhaps—on how not to physically drain oneself to exhaustion; how not to be dependent on drugs, alcohol, and cigarettes to get through endless all-nighters; how not to focus on work ahead of family; and on and on—but his love for and devotion to comic book art, so clearly evident in T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents, as well his sense of deep camaraderie held for his artist brethren, will continue to live and breathe on the pages of those Tower comics, a continual testament to the life and art of a man called Wood.

Witzend and Mr. Wallace Allan Wood Imagine: The man at Tower who created and designed their entire T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents super-hero comic book line, and was also responsible for assigning all of the art jobs, supervising scripts, trafficking all production work—the lettering, coloring, corrections, etc.—never mind drawing and/or inking (albeit with a crew of assistants) an ungodly amount of the publisher’s output, this overworked, over-burdened, under-paid and super-duper artist, Wallace Wood, was working nights on his ambitious, self-owned project, a new magazine he dubbed et cetera (though changing at the last minute to witzend). Upon the release of its first issue in 1966, the prototypical “prozine,” witzend, was certainly a notable event in the history of sequential art. Outside of the amateur-produced comic book fanzines so prevalent in the 1960s, the irregularly produced black-&-white anthology was an early example of a seasoned comics professional self-publishing his own material (as well as showcasing idiosyncratic and non-mainstream work of peers and newcomers), thereby making a brave move towards artistic and (hopefully) financial independence. (Gil Kane, a friend of Wood and another longtime veteran weary of treatment received by the established comic book publishers, would also release a self-published effort, His Name Is… Savage, in 1968, though it contained a single character’s exploits set in the crime genre, all drawn by Kane.)

Witzend is clearly a link between mainstream comics and the groundbreaking underground comix that was beginning to take hold in the mid-’60s, and its editorial page in the inaugural issue was an early battlecry in the upcoming struggle for creator rights. “There is a matter of copyrights,” Woody’s editorial declared, “and this was a prime factor [in conceptualizing witzend]. Everyone in this busi-

ness has given away characters and ideas [in exchange] for pages rates, which then belong to the publishers. This will be a place to print, and therefore protect, an idea… It is a comic book — and it is not… It is a platform, a vehicle, for any idea in any form.” Though witzend’s page rate was zilch, Woody’s widespread reputation and promises of editorial freedom, plus the fact that contributors 45

retained ownership of their material, the prozine attracted the best artists in the field, including many freelancers who had worked with him on T-Agents, including Al Williamson, Steve Ditko, Reed Crandall, Ralph Reese, Richard Bassford, Roger Brand, and Bill Pearson. Other luminaries signed up: Frank Frazetta, Archie Goodwin, Roy Krenkel, Steranko, Dan Adkins, Gray Morrow; as well as young cartoonists, including Art Spiegelman, Vaughn Bodé, Bernie Wrightson, and Jeff Jones. Though the majority of material in the Wood-produced issues of witzend was genre work, there were some notable exceptions, including a parable on religious intolerance by Goodwin, “Sinner,” and Ditko’s “Mr. A” is not only an example of the creator’s finest artwork, but his strongest and most courageous philosophical endeavor to date, showcasing his espousal of Ayn Rand’s Objectivist creed—”black is black; white is white”—as never before, its appearance fitting in a b-&-w mag. Wood helmed the publication until its fourth issue, selling witzend to its current owner (and executor of the Wallace Wood estate), Bill Pearson, but the artist/writer would continue to contribute. Was witzend a ground-breaking prozine essential to the development of comix and the alternative comics? Probably not, but it does remain a milestone in the artistic growth, at the very least, of a good number of the creative crew responsible for T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents.

1965-69: The Tower Comics Years What follows is an eclectic potpourri of essays, remembrances, interviews, and overviews of most of the major contributors—the artists behind the artifacts (though this also includes writers, editors, and a publisher, here and there)—to the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents in all the varied incarnations our beloved super-heroes have manifested over the last 40 years. Listed alphabetically by name and separated into distinct eras, your humble editor has scoured his files, magazine collections, assorted fanzines, yellowing comic books, NCS albums, encyclopedias, as well as searched the Web far and wide, never mind the extensive phone calls and multiple e-mails made to gather and verify data, and we hope you enjoy the results. Ye Ed is especially grateful to have referenced the following: The indispensible Who’s Who of American Comics, edited by the equally indispensible Jerry Bails and Hames Ware (both the four-volume1970s edition—courtesy of Mike Friedrich—and the online version); the 25-plus year run of Gary Groth’s essential magazine, The Comics Journal; The Grand Comic Book Database, available online at <www.comics.org>; and Randy Scott’s phenomenal bibliography of the Michigan State University’s comic book library found on the Web at <www.lib.msu.edu/comics>; as well as a nod and wink to Mr. Peter Coogan, magazine indexer extraordinaire.

Jack Abel

Dan Adkins Born in 1937 in West Virginia, Daniel L. Adkins moved at the ripe old age of seven to the state where he currently resides, Pennsylvania. He is probably best known for his superior inking over the work of such artists as Jack Kirby, Neal Adams, Barry Windsor-Smith, and many others. Also an accomplished penciler, Dan performed art chores on a memorable run of Doctor Strange stories in the late 1960s, a period when he also freelanced for Warren Publications. In the 1970s, he also served as art director at Marvel Comics. Today, Dan draws the occasional commission while chatting about the wacky world of funny books. The following interview, excerpted from CBA V.1, #14, was conducted by telephone on Jan. 11, 2001. Jon B. Cooke: Any idea how Tower Comics came about, Dan? Dan Adkins: I don’t know exactly how Wally Wood learned that they wanted to put out comics, but I assume he heard and took up a package to them. I don’t think he’d just approach them out of the blue. So, he must’ve heard they were looking to put out comics. Jon: Who was Samm Schwartz? Dan: He was a previous editor of Archie Comics, I believe, and he was the editor of the Tower Comics line. Samm was the guy I had to deal with. If Wally was busy, it was me that had to deal with Samm. “Well, Samm, I don’t know, Wally’s doing something. I think he’s taking a nap.” [laughter] Anyway, Samm called me up after the death of Menthor and gave me a dressing-down for killing him. I said, “Sam, you okayed the idea!” But he had a bunch of kids down there in the office that were after me, and he wanted to know what to tell them! “Tell them to get out of your office, Samm!” [laughter] Jon: They marched into his office? Dan: Yeah, they were gonna do something. They wanted to know who’s the guy responsible for killing Menthor! [laughs] Jon: Did you deal with the guys at the Tower offices? Dan: I was the freshman on the block, a kid working with Wally and the guys in his studio, so I didn’t know any of the people at the editorial office. I never met Harry Shorten or Samm Schwartz in person.

Left: Splash page detail, “One of Our Androids Is Missing,”, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #16. Art by Gil Kane & Jack Abel.

Jack Abel was born in Harlem, New York City, on July 15, 1927. After attending Burne Hogarth’s legendary Cartoonists and Illustrators School between 1948-51 (alongside a young Wallace Wood), Jack toiled as a professional artist for any number of publishers, including Fox, Timely, Fiction House, St. John, and Gilberton. After working extensively as both penciler and inker on DC’s war books, in the mid-’60s he joined the growing Marvel bullpen, where he inked under the pseudonym Gary Michaels. For many years until his death on Mar. 6, 1996, Jack was an exceptionally well-loved member of the House of Ideas, where he worked not only as a production artist, but as the company proof-reader, as well. In a rare interview, Jack said, “Around 1972, I was sharing a studio with Wally Wood [inking the Overseas Weekly comic strip, Shattuck], and Woody was [an] extremely impressive [artist]… [During our student days] we used to go into a bar on 89th Street and Amsterdam Avenue, near C & I. All the guys from C & I used to hang out there, watch the fights and drink beer until we got too disgusting and they threw us out. Then we’d go over to [artist] Moe Marcus’ home… and we would sit there all night and work on pages, and listen to Symphony Sid, a jazz disc jockey of the time. We were young. It was a nice

time. Kind of fun.” [Interview with David Anthony Kraft, Comics Interview #7, Jan. ’83] T-Agents work: Inker: T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #16.

Right: Detail of re-creation by Dan Adkins of Wallace Wood & Adkins’ “Menace from the Moon” splash page, Dynamo #1.

Jon: You just dealt with Samm over the phone? Dan: Yeah, I never met the guys at Tower. I was just Wally’s assistant, you know? I was never working for Tower. Jon: So you just worked for Woody? Dan: When I first got there, Wally was putting out the first issue, and the last story wasn’t done. It had been penciled, and Wally was redrawing it. I don’t know who that penciler was. Jon: Was it Larry Ivie? Dan: No. [laughs] It wasn’t Larry Ivie, but Larry was to blame for the mess at the beginning! We had to do the first four pages over. The last story, I never did find out who that penciler was, but it didn’t look like anything like Larry Ivie. It looked more like John Giunta, but I knew it wasn’t. Dick Ayers penciled “The Counterfeit Traitor.” It ends up looking like Wally Wood, but it was penciled by Dick Ayers. He didn’t want credit, because I guess he was still doing Sgt. Fury for Marvel. So we didn’t tell anybody Dick was working on the Tower stuff, and he wasn’t quite as bad as the guy who penciled that first Iron Maiden story. Anyway, I had to redraw it all over and did a little inking on it. The first story was messed up by Larry Ivie—the first four pages—the so-called “Introduction.” Larry had been down at the offices, and saw Samm, and Samm gave a call and told Wally about Larry. But Wally did not know Larry at this time, he never met him, so I don’t know how that fits in with the Creepy stuff, but I guess the Creepy stuff came later. Right? Creepy wasn’t along until about six months later, I guess. But I don’t think Larry Ivie and Wally Wood ever met, you know? [Editor’s note: In a letter of comment to CBA V.1, #15, Bill Pearson wrote in reference to the latter statement, “I found some comments in my buddy Adkins’ interview that contradict some in mine, and I know both of us were trying to remember things as exactly as possible. (Woody did know Larry Ivie, of course, and when he said, ‘Who is Larry Ivie?,’ it was meant rhetorically, meaning Larry Ivie doesn’t have any significant professional credits, so why should he have any influence with Harry Shorten)…”] I think all that stuff was done through Samm. Anyway, Larry was given the four-page script and the breakdowns by Wally for the first four pages. They were sent over to Samm, and Samm gave them to Larry. Larry gave the stuff back to Samm, but it came back to Samm penciled and inked! Well, the book was supposed to look like Wally Wood had drawn it, so we had to fix it up, you know? And we did it completely over. There was nothing left of the Larry Ivie in that story. Jon: I’ve seen Larry’s version which he sent to me. They were completely done, even lettered!

Dan: He did the inking, but he wasn’t asked to do the inking! [laughs] He also did a cover of three of the characters running towards you, which we used later on. But there wasn’t anything new in that idea, because Mac Raboy and everybody had done covers of heroes running at you at that point. So, Larry took credit for that cover later on. On the layout he did of the first cover, he had a little banner across it that said “Crandall/Ivie/Wood.” We didn’t use the banner. Jon: Did Larry come into the studio later? Dan: No, he was never at the studio. He wrote scripts which were given to Samm. Jon: I read an essay by Ralph Reese, and he was describing a time when Wally Wood was inking “Captain America”—which I ascertain must’ve been when Woody was inking The Avengers— and Larry Ivie took it upon himself to ink Cap as the Golden-Age Captain America, without the stripes down his back. [laughs] Apparently, Woody was not too happy about that. Dan: But that wasn’t done at Wally’s studio. He was never up there. There’s only one room in the studio, and I had a desk there. Jon: Samm Schwartz was point central for Tower as editor of the books? Dan: Well, he was like the manager of Wally! [laughter] Wally was basically the editor of the book. Jon: Artists came to the studio with their finished assignments? Dan: Well, no… they dropped the stuff off down at Samm’s all the time or mailed it to Wally. Nobody came up to the studio! [laughs] Nobody bothers Wally. Ditko dropped stuff off down there, and Samm called up and says, “This guy is terrible, Wally! He draws weird stuff!” Jon: [Laughs] Good old Samm! Dan: Yeah! And Wally says, “This guy’s got a great following; he’s very popular!” Jon: Ditko was never better than at that time! [laughs] Dan: Yeah, that’s true. It was real good stuff. In fact, we inked a couple of Steve’s jobs just to please Sam. Jon: Oh, really? [laughs] That was a beautiful job! Dan: Hell, Ditko drew “The Death of Menthor”… he’s the one that killed Menthor! Jon: [Laughs] “It’s all Steve’s fault!” Dan: Wally and I just wanted to ink it. Of course, we wrote the script, too. Jon: But Wally would do breakdowns for Steve at times? Dan: Wally would for almost everybody, because he did a lot of the storytelling, so he did all the breakdowns. He would draw the

and we’d get his stuff in the mail, so that came to us first. Jon: Sometimes Reed would pencil and ink? Dan: Oh, yeah. Jon: Do you know what happened to the original art after the job was printed? Dan: Well, I don’t know what happened to the art, but I used to own some pages which I sold for peanuts—$10 or $15 a page— but I don’t know where I got that stuff from. Anyway, I inked two Crandall stories that I can remember. The first one was where the story took place in the desert—Iraq or someplace—do you remember that? With dinosaurs in the front? The other was where they were under the Earth; where there were railroad cars. That’s the second one I inked. I remember being inhibited inking Crandall’s pencils. Jon: Those are your inks? Dan: Wood and me. Wood did the better stuff! [laughter] He did all the main figures. That doesn’t mean I didn’t do some of the muscles on them, like Dynamo, which I did. But I was mostly doing the guy’s hats! [laughter] Weed’s or something, or a train. Jon: Did you chat at any length with Reed? Dan: No, I didn’t. Jon: It was just pretty much it’s in the mail? Dan: Well, Wally had a whip, and if I talked long… crack! [laughs] Actually, I don’t even think we had music on in the studio, you know? Jon: Was he a taskmaster? Dan: Well, only by example. He constantly worked! That’s all he did was work. Geez, besides eating, that’s all he did. Jon: That was an extremely busy time for Woody, wasn’t it? You guys didn’t really get any break, did you? Dan: When I came in, he was just finishing up Daredevil at Marvel. Jon: Do you recall meeting Larry Ivie for the first time? Dan: I lived with the guy my first two weeks in New York. I was his roommate. That’s how I know he had nothing to do with Wally,

Left: Splash page, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #4. Art by Wallace Wood, Dan Adkins & Tony Coleman.

breakdowns on this 81/2" x 11" typewriter paper. For us in the studio, he’d do the breakdowns on big sheets. We had to job a few stories out sometimes. The one about China is inked by Chic Stone, one of the stories we never had a chance to ink, but it was originally penciled by me. It’s the only story in T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents that I penciled and somebody else inked. Wally did all the breakdowns on all the other ones. I don’t think Wally liked my layouts very much, and that was the reason we kept putting that story aside! [laughs] We finally needed a story, so we sent it to Chic Stone to ink. Jon: As far as you recall, did Steve Ditko immediately come over to Tower after he quit Marvel? Dan: Well, the reason he worked for Tower is Wally Wood asked him to. Samm insisted on seeing his work, so he went down to see Samm. [laughs] Samm didn’t like the art! But he gave him work, anyway. It was real good work, too. Jon: Did Gil Kane visit much? Dan: When I was up there—I don’t know who visited when I wasn’t there, you know—but the only people who ever came were Al Williamson and Leo Dillon, the sciencefiction illustrator. Jon: If Woody was editor of the books, when did he see the final work? Did Samm send the finished pages over to him for approval? Dan: No. We didn’t see the finished work when Ditko would hand in a job, for instance. We did most of the jobs because we inked them. We inked Crandall, Dick Ayers, even Orlando did a story we inked, and we inked our own stories… there wasn’t a hell of a lot that was not touched by us. Jon: Oh, I see, all the stories came through the studio anyway. Dan: You know, we depended on Gil Kane. He would sometimes drop off a story. [laughs] It was a five flight walk up to Wally’s! You could take an elevator up to Samm’s, you know? So, I don’t think those other guys wanted to walk up five flights. [laughter] We talked to Crandall by phone—he lived out in Kansas—

Right: Cover detail, The Comic Artist #3. Art by Dan Adkins.

because Wally kept saying, “Who the hell is this guy?” [laughter] At the time, Larry Ivie and Tim Battersby-Brent—who committed suicide at 19, I think—and Ralph Reese were all good friends. They were all lying their asses off in the fanzines about what they were doing on T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents! And Wally was madder than hell! But he was trying to help Ralph, because Ralph had problems at the time—he was only 15—and Wally was an alcoholic (who was on the wagon at the time) and he was always trying to help Ralph, but Ralph would come over there, and he wouldn’t even know who in the hell Wally was some of the time! He kept calling him Larry! [laughter] Anyway, at a sciencefiction convention, Larry Ivie showed this slide show, and he had my stuff and Virgil Finlay and a bunch of guys, he was showing our swipes, or sources. Like when Virgil Finlay would swipe from the Saturday Evening Post or something, he’d show that. He’s show me swiping Frazetta or someone. So, I wasn’t at the convention, but I heard this from Steve Stiles, so I went up to see Larry and talk it over, “What the hell are you doing, smearing my name?” [laughs] This wasn’t the first time, he was also writing letters to Celia Goldsmith, who was the editor at Amazing Stories, and she would show me the letters from Larry Ivie, where he would show my swipes and stuff to her. And then, he would show her how to draw! [laughs] He would point out, “This is comic book art, this is illustration, this is fine art,” he would do examples. She was saying, “You’ve got to straighten Larry Ivie out! I don’t need this!” [laughs] So, he was working for Galaxy at the time, doing a couple of illustrations for Galaxy, but I don’t think he ever worked for Amazing. Anyway, I went up to talk to Larry, because he was writing Celia letters, and he was running me down… . Jon: Bad-mouthing you? Dan: Yeah, at the conventions… . He put me in good company! He was showing Krenkel, [laughs] and everybody. I knew that Larry was always broke, so I stopped at the corner pharmacy to get sandwiches and sodas for both of us, and so I went up there, and I said, “Do you want this tuna fish and the soda?” He said, “I’ll take the

soda, put the tuna fish in the refrigerator.” I went over to the refrigerator, opened it up, and it’s empty! Completely empty, except for one little upside-down clay dinosaur, on a rack down there! It’s only as big as your hand. This is from one of the little movies he used to make, stop-motion movies. I just couldn’t argue with the guy, I couldn’t do it that day. [laughter] Other stories, like we’d have parties, and Larry would give parties, and all kinds of people would show up, and I don’t know if you know who Marvin Frenzel was, but Marvin was sitting over in the corner—this was during hippie time, in the ’60s—and Marvin was playing with cooked spaghetti with his feet! [laughs] He had a plate there, and he was playing with spaghetti with his feet! That’s the kind of people that showed up at Larry Ivie’s. Jon: People would just come and crash at Larry’s place a lot? Dan: Yeah, he lived in Manhattan. Bill Pearson was there at the time. Bill Pearson moved out of Larry’s and Bill and I lived together for maybe six months. Jon: Who is Bill Pearson? Dan: He put out witzend, and is head of the Wally Wood estate! He’s got all that Wood art out there and papers! He’s got all these sketches by Wally, Jesus, all these little doodles, thousands of them! Anyway, Bill is the guy I met when we were both teenagers, and we wrote letters to fanzines. We put out a fanzine together, Sata. He was also editor up at Charlton for a long time. Bill also wrote some of the first stories in Creepy and Eerie. As a matter of fact, Russ Jones wrote a story with him, and Joe Orlando illustrated it, and it was about voodoo or something. Read the byline there: “Russ Jones and Bill Pearson,” and what was Russ Jones’ contribution? “Hey, Bill! Do a story about the voodoo guy!” That was his contribution! [laughs] Bill also wrote some stories for T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. So did Larry Ivie and Len Brown. Jon: Do you remember Len Brown? Did he come around? Dan: I don’t think he ever came around. I met Len, but not there. I think I met him in Manhattan someplace. He worked for Topps, you

great thing. I used to sleep in there, and I was afraid all the filing cabinets would fall on me or something. Then, I slept in the living room sometimes, on the couch in there. I was up there all the time! Jon: Did you see, there was supposedly a ritual that Woody would, one day a week, just do tear sheets, just go through magazines and just tear out pictures for reference? Do you remember that? Dan: No, I don’t think he did that. I think most of that happened beforehand. He might’ve had that ritual earlier on or something. But I was up there seven days a week! I lived there! [laughs] Jon: It was just an amazing amount of work you guys put out. Dan: We put out all the Tower stuff, three or four series for Topps, stuff for Harvey, the Total War and Fantastic Voyage stuff for Western… We even did an eight-page monster story for Western. We did that Alka-Seltzer ad that appeared on TV. We did Argosy ads, we did those six record album covers. Jon: How long were you with Woody? Dan: 16 months. Jon: [Laughs] Wow! Dan: Yeah! I know I did 60 different assignments. It was great fun; I had nothing but fun all the time. Jon: Did you do some writing? Dan: Yeah, I killed Menthor. Jon: [Laughs] So that was your idea? Dan: Yeah, yeah. Jon: What was your thinking behind that? Dan: I guess it was because my parents and everybody treated me bad. [laughter] I used to have dreams of everybody coming to my funeral, and they were all weeping and sorry they treated me so bad. Jon: You’ll show them! [laughs] Dan: So, this came out in my “Death of Menthor” story. Instead of writing it Wally’s way, with a happy ending, I wanted to show the people that characters can die. [laughter] It just wrote itself. I sat

Left: Back cover line art, Comic Book Artist V.1, #14. Art by Dan Adkins.

know. I guess he still works for Topps! Jon: He just finally retired. Dan: [Laughs] Oh, so that’s what happened! He was so young when I was up there, he was in his 20s. Anyway, it was just me, Ralph and Coleman up there for a year-and-a-half, and his wife, Tatjana. Jon: This was Tony Coleman? He was out of Canada? Dan: Yeah. He went back to Britain. I did such a good job on “The Battle of Britain” [Blazing Combat #3, Apr.’66] because of those little digests, British war magazines that Tony had. [laughs] I swiped just about everything in “Battle of Britain” except the first page, which Wally laid out. But in between, I used most of those British comics. Jon: Coleman was an artist over in England? Dan: Yeah, he was a comic book artist of the type like Mike Esposito would be, you know? Not too flashy a style. But a good journeyman. He worked for Wally for under six months, just to get enough money to get back to England. He lost all his money in Canada or something, and Joe Orlando sent him up from DC to work for Wally, which means Orlando must’ve been editor down at DC during the Tower time. Jon: So Joe and Woody always maintained their friendship? Dan: Yeah, they were always great buddies. Jon: Did they go out and socialize together? Dan: Wally never went out. [laughter] Wally went out twice a week to see a psychiatrist. Jon: Did he order everything out? Dan: Yes, we did. We ordered a lot of stuff out. Jon: Did you have a hot plate? Did anyone ever cook? Dan: We had a kitchen right next to us, then down the hall was the bathroom, and then the swipe room, which was filled with about 22 cabinets. Wally had made his own swipe machine, it was a great, elaborate affair! [laughs] Like this great big house was coming down on us. Yeah, we turned a crank wheel, and a big wheel at the side there, and Wally made the lenses and everything himself. It was a

Right: Advertisment appearing in The 1965 Guidebook to Comics Fandom. Outlet, Dan Adkins’ proposed prozine, morphed into witzend. Art by Dan Adkins.

down for two hours, and Wally gave me this plot about… they swiped his helmet, you know? So I started out with that, and ended up passing the pages along to Wally, and Wally’s saying, “I hope to hell you save this guy! It’s good!” [laughs] Then, the last two pages, I didn’t save him. So, Wally told me for two hours, “You’ve got to change this, we can’t kill off Menthor!” And I kept saying, “Ah, you never use him anyway! He’s a lousy super-hero!” [laughter] I convinced Wally, then Wally had to do the same act for Samm. But he was very popular after we killed him! For a couple of months, anyway. The story just happened, it just wrote itself. That’s the way I did my “Doctor Strange” stories, too. They might’ve been a little better when Denny O’Neil was writing, because he did have tight plots, but everybody else would just give me a loose plot and I was just winging it! I liked my own control—I didn’t like being bossed around. That’s why they stink, too. [laughter] Now, I realize in the old days, those things were going nowhere! You can tell they’re just sort of like The Wizard of Oz. Jon: I remember seeing it as a kid, and going, “Wow! You can’t kill a super-hero!” That was cool and innovative! It was before Ferro Lad was killed in “Legion of Super-Heroes.” Dan: Wally wrote the last line, something about laying down your life for a friend or something. Ditko ended up penciling it, which pissed me off at the time, because I was going to do such a marvelous job! [laughs] I probably couldn’t have done any better than he did though. Ditko used my layouts that I drew, as I wrote the script. Jon: How much work were you doing on a typical T-Agents story? Dan: Well, when we started out, Wally had to fix up my work a lot. I can’t remember exactly what I did after that first Iron Maiden story… I think it was that one about robots coming up in Washington, D.C., with that big shot of the Capitol on the splash page. He would lay it out, the breakdowns… . Well, you’ve seen the Wood Sketchbook? Well, those are the sketches. It was pretty good. There were no backgrounds hardly on most of the stuff, and there’s no faces much. It’s just basically figures, but there’s some little indication of faces there. But the figures were mostly there, all you had to do was tighten them up, they were most of the time on the money. He said if I could find a better figure, to swipe it. So sometimes I substituted

Crandall or somebody for his stuff. Then, there were a lot of backgrounds to make up, because the backgrounds weren’t too complex. The cover roughs in there, he never did them that tight. Those are almost complete pencils that he has in the Sketchbook, of some of the covers. Some of those covers [laughs] where he went over a swipe by Ralph or something, you can see some of the awkwardness in the train or something. We had Ralph swipe a lot of the stuff. If we needed a train or something, Ralph would swipe some of that stuff. But mostly after Wally laid it out, I took it home, and I’d do the tight pencils, and back at his place, we’d do mostly the inking, finish it up there, so Wally could have the last… and usually it was deadline time anyway… so Wally could have the last word on the panel. We’d make corrections up there. But at home, I would tighten it up. I worked my ass off up at Wally’s, and drag it home, get a nap, and start working my ass off at home! [laughter] I never slept any at all, probably averaged four or five hours a night, you know? Only my day lasted about 35 hours [laughter] before I’d get to sleep! Jon: Did you guys do lettering, too? Dan: No, Ben Oda and his assistant, Billy Yoshida, would do most of our lettering. Jon: Would it be sent out, or would Ben come over? Dan: I think he would pick that up, I think they’d pick up four or five stories at a time. Billy was a very young guy, like 20. I don’t think he ever got credit. Jon: Did Wally do all the story logos? Dan: For the stories we did, he probably did. I don’t know if he inked them all, but he roughed them in there, just how he wanted. Jon: What did Coleman do? Dan: Coleman specifically inked Fantastic Voyage, the majority of the inking on that. I did no inking on Fantastic Voyage. I did almost all the penciling. [laughs] Conceptual, everything almost! He worked on either Dynamo #2 or T-Agents #2. Wherever all those guys are on a beach and Dynamo was beating the hell out of about 20 or 30 guys in one panel. Tony was complaining about that. [laughter] He worked on a couple of the stories we did for Harvey… this was like the V-1 Rocket story which I penciled. Jon: Was this Warfront? Dan: Oh, that’s what the name of it was! [laughs] Yeah, that’s where they had “Dollar Bill Cash” 51

Jon: Who was John Giunta? Dan: He was an old-timer. He did the one story where Dynamo is running and dressed in uniform, as a soldier or something, with a tank. He did quite a few. He also did science-fiction illustrations for Galaxy. Jon: Did you know Gray Morrow? Dan: Yeah. He’s been over to my home, we were good friends. [laughs] I haven’t really seen him lately, but he still looks great to me, and he’s older than I am! [laughter] Yeah, he still looks sharp to me. Oh, yeah, we used to have a lot of fun together, because he liked to party. In fact, I think he still likes to party, he invited me for a drink! [laughs] He was here at a convention, too, but he only stayed about two hours and left, because he found the convention dull. I helped Wally on a lot of the science-fiction stories. As a matter of fact, Coleman inked a few of the science-fiction illustrations, too. But this was right during that period where I was working there, ’68 or something, and I worked for Galaxy during that same period, doing my own stuff. So, in one issue of Galaxy there’s a story illustrated by me, another illustrated by Wally I also did the penciling on, and then there’s a story by Ralph Reese… it was an all-Wally issue! [laughter] Of course, Wally did a cover, all himself and his wife, Tatjana. She helped some on the coloring. They wanted big changes on the cover to make it cheaper and louder, and Wally was going to say no to the whole deal, and Tatjana just says, “Let’s let Danny fix it, and we’ll split the money.” So, I made it cheap and louder, and then they ended up giving the credit to Gray Morrow! [laughter] Jon: Was Roger Brand around the studio at the time? Dan: I did a story called “The Haunted Sky” [Creepy #17, Oct. ’67]… and I penciled the splash, and I didn’t want to do the rest of the story, because I guess I had to do something for Marvel, so I gave it to Roger to finish. So, “The Haunted Sky,” which was printed in one of the books, is my splash, a story Archie wrote for me about planes, [laughs] that I begged him for, then I gave it back to him and screwed him, and Roger finished the story. So, how much Roger helped me, I don’t know. Roger did a few—oh, I know what he helped me on! He helped me on that anniversary issue, the 100th issue of Sub-Mariner versus the Hulk, Tales to Astonish, I guess. Roger helped me ink that, we inked nine pages in a week. Jon: Did you meet him at the studio? Dan: No, I don’t know how I met Roger. You’ve got to remember, it’s New York, where you go up to the offices of the publishers, you go

Left: Dan Adkins re-creation of Reed Crandall, Wallace Woods & Adkins’ “The Return of the Iron Maiden” splash page, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #4.

and all those guys. I don’t have any copies of that, I haven’t seen them in years. “Earthman” and all that stuff. I haven’t seen those in years. Jon: Did you guys work on “Animan”? Dan: The one that was printed in witzend? No, I had nothing to do with that. I think I did a little inking on the splash, and that’s all I did… in front of those trees and stuff. That’s just because I happened to be there at the time. I don’t know if that’s because that came in so late, I’d already left, or was close to leaving Wally. Ralph was tracing off those little cavemen running over a log from Reed Crandall [laughs] when I’d seen them. Jon: What did Ralph do on T-Agents? Dan: He didn’t do much art until after I left, but there’s one that Chic Stone penciled, and we added more penciling by Ralph. Chic penciled this one about a castle, and there’s one of those machines that throws a big rock that’s on the floor—catapult. Ralph did the catapult. Jon: There was a splash page in T-Agents #4, with billboards reading “A. G. Coleman Presents Daniel Adkins”? Dan: Yeah, that’s the Times Square thing. There’s also other artists mentioned throughout the whole damn book. The guys in Texas, the Texas Trio—Buddy Saunders… those guys are mentioned. That’s when I was starting to get Wally interested in putting out witzend, but under my control! [laughter] Jon: Did you add those names, or did Woody? Dan: No, I had it all in there. Tony on the splash… I think I put Tony Coleman as a “BNF”—Big Name Fan! [laughter] And Jerry Bails, Big Name Fan. There’s also “Tim” for Tim Battersby. That’s when Tim was on good terms with us! [laughs] Jon: Astor is just for the hotel? Dan: Yeah, the Astor Hotel is where they held the convention. Jon: You obviously did a lot of work on this story. I can see your dinosaur, this is really…. Dan: Well, it’s Wally’s old round dinosaurs, I took a lot from his EC stories. I like his dinosaur better than today’s dinosaur, which has all the color. All these old, gray, round ones! The dinosaurs today are weird-looking! I like Wally’s dinosaurs. Jon: Did you know Manny Stallman? Dan: Yeah, he lived out in Queens and was absolutely nuts. Jon: The Raven stories were so cartoony. Dan: Yeah, Wally didn’t know what to think of that. [laughter] I told him I liked it!

Right: Panel from “The Origin of T.H.U.N.D.E.R.” pin-up page, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #4. Art by Wallace Wood, Dan Adkins & Tony Coleman.

to parties—Bill Pearson used to have an apartment that wasn’t too far from Wally Wood. You know, Wally was on 76th Street, off Grand Central Park, and Pearson was at 72nd Street, on over towards the river, and this was back when Steve Ditko used to actually get out and go to these things, and I actually talked to Steve Ditko, so I can assure you he’s a real person! [laughter] A very nice, quiet guy, usually wore a suit. Gray Morrow was over there, and you’d meet all kinds of people over at Bill’s place. I probably met Roger, because I also knew Michelle, his wife. So, I met her over there. I don’t know if I met Marvin Wolfman. Jeff Jones came into the city a month or two after I left Wally. He helped me on a couple of science-fiction illustrations. He also helped me on a Not Brand Echh! story by… geez, it was Magnus, Robot Fighter… [laughs] Don Heck! You know, Jeff Jones helped me ink some Don Heck. It’s all very strange, because you meet so many people. I used to be with the other crowd, like Ted White, Harlan Ellison, Lin Carter, Terry Carr—I still have photographs in my scrapbook of Terry Carr and his wife when they got married. Lin Carter was writing all that stuff, and he had an apartment with Oriental curtains, and chests… [laughter] I was down in the Village, that’s where Ted White was. Jon: What do you imagine the thinking behind Tower Comics was? Were they trying to grab some of the thunder from Marvel Comics? Was it a James Bond thing? Dan: Well, Wally had all these characters, almost since childhood, like Animan, and Andor, a sort-of villain that looks like a civilian. Ditko did a couple of stories with Andro. That was his Animan, as far as giving power. But he had stories he’d done of Animan when he was 13 years old. Those little sketches. Pearson has all these little sketches, he sent a bunch to Steranko just to look at for a while. According to Steranko, they were all done without any pencil lines, Wally was just inking those as a kid! Just made ’em up! I don’t know about that. Jon: Did he create all the Tower characters? Dan: As far as I know. A lot of them were made up as we went along, a lot of villains. Jon: Did you develop any of the characters?

Dan: No. I don’t think anybody ever asked me. I had to write a couple of stories and stuff, and I probably wouldn’t have been able to do it, except Wally asked me. My God, he was my hero at the time! Jon: Did you like the Tower comics? Dan: Oh, well, one reason I quit was I kept telling Wally I’d like to do bigger pictures. [laughs] Wally was always into this telling a story in this formulaic way, and I was more into the image kind of thing. I said, “Let me do some big splashes!” Jon: They had pretty small panels. Dan: In fact, there was one with a big rocket ship—I forget what the hell that was—and I wanted to do a full splash, and Wally sat down there as half a page, and he’s got four other panels on that page. That got in the way, when I started, Wally stopped doing the breakdowns, and like I said, I did four on my own. He told me I had to do them all together on my own. In fact, I probably got credit for those, too, all three that I got credit for were probably ones I did on my own. The other one was the one that Chic Stone inked. So, it’s just that I wanted to do it differently than Wally. That’s what happens after you get so tired of doing it one way, you like experimenting a little bit when you start out, whereas Wally had settled to what he wanted to do. Jon: Was the lack of credit bothersome to you at all? Dan: No, I don’t think so. I was a lot happier getting credit, though! I could’ve lasted another two years if it continued, probably. The main reason I left everything is because we were told by Samm that the books weren’t selling, or were having hard times with distribution, and Wally said I should find some extra freelance work. I didn’t want to do advertising! [laughs] I did a couple of those advertising jobs—I forget what the hell they were—and one was for Argosy magazine. I ended up copying Mort Drucker! It was a “Subscribe to Argosy, we have the great detective stories” ad. I had to draw Perry Mason and a whole bunch of detectives… that wasn’t any fun at all. Jon: Was the money good? Dan: Yeah, I guess. I don’t remember the money on that, but I do remember the money on the record albums, and that was $60 a page for just doing the pencils. That’s good money even 10 years ago, let

Tony’s artwork, he’d tear the man apart verbally. So yeah, I feared the guy. But basically, he was never terribly happy. The only true light moments he had was when he would strum the guitar and play folk songs. I always felt sorry for him, or concerned. Jon: Do you think his being unhappy added to his creativity, or do you think there was any correlation? Dan: It would tire me out to be unhappy, because that’s what happens when I get unhappy. He was going to a psychiatrist. If he was on meds, I don’t know, but he could’ve been on medicine. I know it was expensive for him to go to a psychiatrist. I don’t know. I think the thing that made Wally draw good was the fact that he wanted to show people his talent. Usually his value of himself comes from his work… in other words, what he valued from himself, what he was most proud of, was his work. He had delusions of grandeur, to a certain extent. Jon: If this country was a little more hip to what was going on, he would’ve been a major name in American culture, I think. Dan: If it was like in Europe, you mean? Jon: Yeah, more attuned. There was something in the early ’60s, with his work with Mad, that was the face of humor in this country— Wally Wood’s drawings were America. Dan: He asked me if I thought they should have a Wally Wood parade in New York, and how many people knew who he was, and all that sort of thing. [laughter] One of the reasons you start out drawing is to get attention, the ego thing. That can’t sustain you or your ego. He never got the glory like [Todd] McFarlane. I went to a convention in Philadelphia when those guys were at their peak, and they had that big convention, it must’ve been ’89, ’90, somewhere in there, and there was a line for signing autographs for McFarlane that was 1,000 people long! Get in that line, you’re going to wait about two hours! That never happened with Wally Wood. T-Agents work: ART: T-Agents #1-9, 11-15; Dynamo #1-4; WWTA #4; Boris the Bear #11 (first 14 pgs.). SCRIPT: T-Agents #7. Please note that Dan not only penciled and inked, but helped conceptualize aspects of the series.

Left: Page from “The Maze,” Dynamo #4. Art by Dan Adkins & Wallace Wood.

alone 30! I had money back then. Although, when Wally left Mad, he was getting $200 a page, which was good money today, almost! Jon: Did Woody stick it out at Tower? Dan: Until they went under. They started reprinting stories and stuff. Jon: And that’s all they did; they just reprinted to the end, right? Dan: Well, they had new covers, I think. Then they actually reprinted a couple of covers and everything. I think it only went to about #20. Jon: Did you like Woody? Dan: I don’t know if I liked him or just admired him. After all, he was mean-spirited, you know, but he really liked comics. I mean, I love the man’s work—everybody likes his work—but I don’t know if I liked him… I don’t think he was a nice guy. I think he was a very honest guy, but I don’t know how many people you’ve talked to about his later years, but I’m sure if he had a kid, he’d never think much of the kid. But I might be wrong, because he sort of took care of Ralph a little bit. Jon: Was it unpleasant to work for him? Dan: No, it wasn’t unpleasant to work for him, because one, You knew the money was going to be there, and two, You respected the man’s work—but there was something about him that made you nervous; you don’t cross this man, you know? Jon: You were afraid of him? Dan: Well, yeah. I guess it boils down to that, yeah. I was afraid to be myself. Jon: But he wasn’t prone to violence, was he? Dan: Prone to violence? Did you ever hear about his later years? [laughs] Jon: Well, yes. Dan: He tore up the whole studio, and then started shooting a shotgun into the walls! And then he took an axe to everything! [laughter] Geez! Jon: I mean, when you were there. Dan: He was bleeding, he’d cut himself with the axe when Pearson found him one time. He had this rage in him, this underlying rage, that I’ve seen a few times. [laughs] When Tony left, and he didn’t like

Right: Splash panel, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #2. Art by Dick Ayers, Wallace Wood & Joe Orlando.

Dick Ayers Richard Bache Ayers was born in Ossining, New York, on April 28, 1924. Besides his work as artist on innumerable strips for Marvel (including Sgt. Fury, Combat Kelly, and many Western strips), the man is fondly recalled as delineator of the original Ghost Rider for Magazine Enterprises. According to Comics: Between the Panels (1998), Dick counts 18,132 pages inked between 1947 and ’89: 10,300 for Marvel; 4,190 for DC; 1,189 for M.E.; and the rest for other publishers. Now in his 80s, the artist continues to attend comic conventions, in addition to devoting time at the ol’ drawing board. Dick was interviewed by phone on June 13, 2005. Jon B. Cooke: When did you first meet Wallace Wood? Dick Ayers: I first met Wally in Burne Hogarth’s night class, the Cartoonists & Illustrators School, in New York. I attended classes with him. Jon: Did you get along with Woody? Dick: Well, I do remember him sitting there in class, but I didn’t have much to do with him, because I was focused more on my friendships with [fellow artists] Ernie Bates, Ross Andru, and Mike Esposito. Jon: What did you think of him as an artist? Dick: I loved Wally Wood’s work. I took over the Sky Masters syndicated newspaper comic strip as inker after Wally left. I remember [penciler] Jack Kirby handing me some originals that featured Wally’s work, and he said, “This is the way I want you to work.” [chuckles] That kind of threw me, but I tried and attempted to put in the blacks and reflected light like Wally did. Jon: When you got that T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents assignment, you had been working at Marvel? Dick: I worked for Marvel since the late ’50s, right straight through into the 1970s. Jon: How did you hear about work at Tower? Dick: That job was for Wally Wood. Wally had called me. Jon: Had you had a continuing relationship with Woody? Dick: No, I think that was the first time I had ever done any work for him, and I can’t think of any other time since. Jon: Do you recall the job you did? Dick: I did a “NoMan” story, which I penciled. I remember the way the character was dressed, in a flowing robe and hood. I’m not sure I did anything else. But I do very well remember delivering the story to Wally in his apartment, because I was going on vacation to Canada at the time. Wally gave me good advice. He said to me, “Don’t tell anybody where you’re going or when you’ll be back.” [chuckles] It turned out that he gave me darned good advice! Y’see, I drove my mother-in-

law, four kids, and my wife in a really full station wagon, and when we came back from Montreal, I drove in the driveway and the phone was ringing. I couldn’t believe it! When I answered the phone, it was Stan Lee wanting a cover! [laughter] He never said how many times he tried calling, but he got me that time! Jon: Was the “NoMan” job just a one-shot deal? Dick: I would have liked to have done more work, but I don’t think I did any other jobs. T-Agents work: ART: T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #2.

Ray Bailey Very little appears to be known about the Undersea Agent artist, other than the fact that Ray Bailey was born in 1913 in Great Britain, and he passed away in San Francisco in 1973. According to Ron Goulart, Ray was a onetime assistant to cartoonist great Milton Caniff, and he drew such strips as Vesta West, Bruce Gentry, and Tom Corbett, Space Cadet, before going on to work for Dell and Charlton comics. One source says that Ray drew the Steve Canyon comic book title (though Caniff is said to have drawn the faces and hands of the characters himself). The Web site <www.lambeik.com> states that Ray drew the comic strip “Kitty Hawke,” which appeared in ’50s British magazine Girl, a girl-version of the popular Eagle. He probably also was the artist of The Chimps comic book. T-Agents work: ART/SCRIPT: Undersea Agent #1-6.

Left: Double-page spread from “Return of Dr. Fang,” Undersea Agent #2. Art by Ray Bailey.

Jon B. Cooke: Were you into comics at an early age? Len: Oh, boy, I loved comics from the earliest I can remember. Leonard Brown was born in 1941 in Brooklyn, New York. While I can clearly remember being six years old and discovering an issue still in high school, he began contributing to Topps Chewing Gum of World’s Finest Comics that sold for 15¢ and being amazed at how (a confectioner known best not only for their Bazooka bubble gum, thick it was, 98 pages for 15¢! I loved comics. Superman, Captain but collectible trading cards, as well), working with creative director Marvel, and Wonder Woman were my three favorites. Woody Gelman (one-time comic book artist and later publisher of the Jon: Did you draw yourself? renowned Nostalgia Press, an imprint specializing in quality newspaper Len: I tried. Whenever I got white paper I would try and draw. I comic strip reprints, as well as an EC horror comics hardcover). While never had any talent but I can remember doing a Dick Tracy-kind of Len served a valuable apprenticeship under the talented art director, strip when I was a little boy and thinking it was terrific. he witnessed what would later be viewed as a link between the Jon: Did you ever dream of doing your own strip? exceptional EC Comics of the ’50s (particularly Harvey Kurtzman’s Len: Oh, yeah. I think at some point I thought that writing a comic ground-breaking Mad comics) and the revolutionary underground comix strip would be just fabulous. Actually tried it once with Al Williamson. that emerged out of the West Coast in the latter ’60s. That is, Len This is jumping ahead now into the ’60s. At one point, Woody rubbed shoulders with an astonishing roster of creative minds, including Gelman, who worked at Topps, was the inspiration and co-financed a Jack Davis, Basil Wolverton, Jay Lynch, Robert Crumb, Norm Saunders, strip by Al and me; Woody paid Al to draw a couple of the sample a young Art Spiegelman, and, yes—designer of Topps’ breakthrough Sunday pages which I wrote. We did a pretty ornate two-page strip card set, Mars Attacks!—Mr. Wallace Wood. After Woody Gelman’s which has appeared in print a number of times over the years called passing in the late ’70s, Len took over as creative director of Topps, Robbie. It was a takeoff of Little Nemo but it was prime Al Williamson serving with distinction (notably through the Garbage Pail Kids work. We shopped the samples around to the syndicates and a couple sensation—which even spawned a movie!— and the top-notch, of them held them for a while and acted like they were considering if shortlived, Topps Comics line of the 1990s) before retiring to it, but who knows? Basically, the feedback was that they weren’t Dripping Springs, Texas, in 2000. Currently he hosts a radio show interested in a Sunday strip, they wanted a daily, which we didn’t for KOOP-FM in Austin devoted to his other great love, Texas country want to do because we wanted big panels to show off Al’s artwork. music. The following talk, conducted by Jon B. Cooke, took place on Jon: Did you have favorite artists when you were growing up? April 23, 2001, via telephone. Len: Oh, yeah. I guess it wasn’t until I was 12 years old that I

Len Brown

Right: Splash page, Dynamo #3. Art by Chic Stone.

realized specific artists worked on these comics. I was a huge EC fan once I discovered them, and the artists from EC were the greatest, in my mind. Wally Wood, Al Williamson, Reed Crandall, George Evans, Jack Davis—what a company! What can I say? Jon: You were the perfect age for that, right? You were 10 when they first started coming out with the New Trend stuff? Len: Yeah. I don’t think I got into it right away. I remember discovering EC when I was in fourth grade so I guess that would be 1953, a couple of years later. A friend was telling me about the great science-fiction stories that were in these comic books and that was, of course, Weird Fantasy and Weird Science. So I latched onto those and then found out about the horror stuff and got those, too, and then Mad… oh, I thought Mad was the greatest! Jon: Did you become an official EC Fan-Addict? Len: You know, for some reason I never joined but, boy, my heart was with them. It seems weird when I consider how much stuff I sent away for when I was that age. I guess money was tight when I was growing up. Jon: What were your aspirations when you were a teenager? Len: I always thought maybe I’d take some journalism classes when I got to college. I was going to evening classes at Brooklyn College, but you know what happened? Very early on, I got in contact with Woody Gelman. Woody had joined the Topps Chewing Gum Company in the early to mid ’50s. In 1955, I met Woody when I was 14 years old and he became like a father to me because my father had died when I was five years old. So I grew up fatherless and Woody seemed like the most unbelievable guy in the world. I wrote Woody a letter because he was publishing a series of kids’ magazines. They were TV Guidesize, with fictional stories about Davey

Crockett and Daniel Boone, and also a Hardy Boys-type series called The Power Boys. I wrote him a letter with some suggestions and a couple of days later he called me on the phone and invited me down to his office to discuss some of the books that they were considering. He was looking for feedback from kids. That one letter I wrote changed my life. Woody was also working for Topps at the time. Ultimately, the books weren’t making a lot of money and he closed down publishing after about a year, year-and-a-half. Woody would call me about ideas that they were considering at Topps for trading cards. I remember once calling them and telling them that the TV show The $64,000 Question was very hot and that Topps might want to issue a trading card set, but they didn’t. We always stayed in touch and when I turned 18, he offered me a part-time job at Topps. Jon: Did you collect trading cards? Len: I did. I loved Topps baseball cards tremendously. I was there from the beginning. I remember the ’51 card series which which looked like small playing cards. Then in ’52 they went to a more traditional size (though still a little bigger than the ones today). I was collecting sports cards, Davy Crockett cards… Jon: Non-sports cards, too? Len: Yes. I loved the non-sports stuff. I remember Bowman, a competitor of Topps in the early ’50s (which Topps eventually bought), was putting out some non-sports cards that I loved, a series called Spacemen was a beautifully painted sciencefiction series. Jon: What was the appeal? I think that nowadays, people can understand the appeal of sports cards, but the non-sports cards… Len: Topps had a great idea back then which was to put a stick of gum in the packs. They were a penny a card with gum or you could get six cards and a stick of gum in a nickel pack. 57

involved in animation and worked for Paramount Studios on the early Popeye and Superman cartoons… Paramount was down in Florida in those days so he had moved down there. When he came back to New York in ’44 or ’45 and opened a studio, doing art advertising. Did you ever heard of Popsicle Pete? Jon: No, I haven’t. Len: Popsicles used to feature a kind of Bazooka Joe character in their advertising—Popsicle Pete—and he was in a lot of their ads that were aimed at kids. I think Woody came up with the character. Then, later, he got involved with Bazooka Joe. Through his art service, Woody was approached by various corporations for advertising work. Topps ultimately came to him and the owner at that time was impressed with Woody and offered him a job. Woody closed down his art studio which he’d operated for seven or eight years…. Woody was about 25 years older than I. I think he was born in 1916. Oh, he fed my collecting mania! Walking into his house was like walking into a museum. He collected pulps, had a complete run of Amazing Stories, all the great pulps—Argosy magazine, the humor magazines, Judge, and Life…. Then he started Nostalgia Press in the ’60s, reprinting classic strips in hardcover books at the same time Ed April was reprinting Buck Rogers and other strips. It was the beginning of an era when strips were being reprinted in finer forms either in trade paperback or hardcover forms. Do you remember Nostalgia Press? Jon: Oh, yeah! The Flash Gordon collections and that great EC horror comics compilation! Woody also did Prince Valiant volumes, didn’t he? Len: Yeah, he did those. Jon: It’s au courant to be reprinting this stuff now but Woody was really ahead of everyone in the ’60s and early ’70s. Len: I think so. Again, I’ve got to give credit to this other fellow, Ed April, who was doing some, but I think he dropped out a lot sooner than Woody did. Jon: Woody just did this publishing on the side? He had a full-time job while doing this?

Left: Panels from “Dynamo Battles Dynavac,” T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #2. Art by Wallace Wood & Richard Bassford.

All their early items were sold that way up until about 1956. You had your choice of one card and gum for a penny or six cards and gum for a nickel. It was appealing to me, I guess: You got a piece of gum to chew and you start collecting. It’s that basic collecting instinct, you know? I think that was the appeal. I can remember collecting flags of the world, a very early Topps series, I think it was called Parade Flags of All Nations, in 1951 or maybe ’52, I was 11 years old. I had begun collecting that very early non-sports stuff. Then Topps issued a series on cars called Wheels, and stuff on planes called Jets which were black-&-white photos of jets and I’d try to collect the entire series. I guess I was born with a collecting instinct. Today, I collect DVDs and CDs. [laughs] Jon: But you don’t go through them and say, “got it… got it… don’t got it… got it”! [laughs] Len: Right! And I don’t flip them! Jon: What’s interesting is that for a lot of people who fell in love with comics and subsequently became professionals in the field, there’s a life event that made them collectors. For me, it was in the Fall of 1969 when I had chicken pox and later spending a year in Europe, when I buried myself in comics; it was those periods of relative isolation that did it for me. Dick Giordano suffered scarlet fever as a child and went through a solitary recovery mired in comics. Do you think that by losing your father at such a young age perhaps got you into collecting? Len: Oh, you ought to hang out a shingle like a therapist! [laughs] I’ve often thought that. I’ve analyzed what made me a collector and I absolutely came to the same conclusion. As I’ve gone through life, I realize because there was a void in my life, no father figure basically, and I’d lost something dear to me and this was a way of keeping something and not ever losing it, by collecting. Absolutely. No doubt in my mind. Jon: Who was Woody Gelman? Len: For the bulk of his career he was the creative director of Topps. He came from the world of animation. Woody was a cartoonist and also wrote some great comic book stories of his own, but he got

Right: Pencils for T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #13 cover art. Art by Wallace Wood.

Len: He sure did! Jon: Was he married? Len: Yep, he was and had two children. He had such an innate drive and a love for collecting old periodicals and nostalgia items…. He definitely made me feel “normal” about collecting. If you collect and don’t have any support, you can feel like the weird kid on the block. But because Woody was such a collector and successful in business and in life—being married and with kids—it almost justified the things I did. Like I said, Woody was a father to me, my mentor who brought me into Topps. Because of him I think I just ended up there the rest of my life even though he left Topps 15 years after I was hired. He was in his fifties and spent the rest of his retirement publishing. Jon: Did you love him? Len: Oh, yes, absolutely! He became the father I lost at the age of five! I always say to my wife that I regret she never had a chance to meet him. It’s the second marriage for us both, and when I met Abby, Woody had already passed away a couple of years before. He was just a wonderful guy. One of the most intelligent guys I’ve ever met. A great thinker. Jon: Were you part of his family life, too? Len: Well, not as much. I met his son and daughter on many occasions. Woody verbalized that he was as close to me as he was to his own son. You know, we saw each other five days a week at Topps and when either one of us had personal problems that would crop up in our lives we would confide in each other. It was really more of a father/son than a boss/employee relationship. Jon: After you had first met him, was that in your mind that someday you’d work for him? Len: No, I didn’t at all, but about a year or two later—before I joined Topps—he gave me an assignment to write a Power Boys novel. I remember submitting a couple of chapters and then it looked like the business was going downhill so I never finished it. I guess at that point I started to think that it would be great to work with Woody. I was about 16 or so at the time and still in high school. It was after I got out of high school that he called and asked if I’d like to come in for 12 hours a week and sort of help as an assistant. Take care of mail that would come in and file some things. Then, little by little, I got involved in Topps projects and was working there five days a week in about a year. Jon: Do you recall your first salary? Len: It was about $70 a week. Back in 1959, that wasn’t too bad. Probably about 1961 or so, I was making $100 a week and I just thought I was doing great. Jon: When did you move out of home?

Len: Ah, right about that time. I actually paid rent and bought a car. My first car was a brand new Ford convertible and that cost about $3,000 in 1960. Jon: Did you still live in Brooklyn? Len: I did. Topps was in Brooklyn, located in a factory district. The second floor was the main business office where we were and the fourth floor was where the manufacturing was done. Bubble gum was manufactured on the fourth floor. Jon: Was Woody a good artist? Len: A great cartoonist. He created the character Nutsy Squirrel for DC Comics. I don’t know if he had his own book or if he just appeared in Funny Stuff Comics. Jon: Was Woody easy to work for? Len: Oh, yeah. Amazing. I don’t think I heard him raise his voice once or twice in all the years we worked together. He just didn’t seem to have a temper. He was a sweet guy, a really sweet guy. Jon: What was the organization like at Topps? Who started it? Len: There were four brothers who started it after WWI. They had owned a chain of gas stations and had actually done so well that Esso

bought them out. Esso (later Exxon) saw them as something of a threat. The brothers now had all this money to go into another business, so they hired some market research people to find out what kind of business to start. The war was just getting over and the market research people predicted that there would be a baby boom and chewing gum would be a great thing to get into. Trading cards wasn’t the first thing Topps got into. It was chewing gum and then later it became bubble gum. The first gum that they put out was just called Topps and it was like Chicklets (which was very popular around that time). Jon: You got into the company in 1960? Len: I actually started in 1959. Jon: You worked on a Civil War set? Len: The Civil War set was a couple of years later. Let’s see, I started in ’59 so this would have been about ’61, I guess. I was very

Left: Pencil roughs for Dynamo #1 cover art. Art by Wallace Wood.

involved in that. I wrote the backs of all those cards and, together with Stan Hart and Woody, we would plan the scenes. We would actually describe very dramatic battle scenes. We wanted picture cards that looked like a pulp magazine cover. High drama! Woody, who was very instrumental in the look of the set, brought in some of the old gum cards that he had collected over the years and this would have been Horrors of War and some of the Gum, Inc. cards from the 1930s which used illustration and blood ’n’ guts and all the things that kids liked. Jon: [Laughs] Kids still do! Len: A lot of gore, yeah. They were very much inspiration to the Civil War set. Jon: Were they explicit cards in the 1930s? Len: Oh, Horrors of War was a very explicit set that was published in the 1930s, depicting the Japanese-Chinese war of that decade… it showed incredible gore. It outdid Mars Attacks!, let me put it that way. One card depicted a scene of a bombed city, and there would just be severed hands holding the steering wheel of an automobile. Just the hands and nothing else left of it! That was one particular image which stuck in my mind. That was about as bad as it got. I remember that Woody told me that the Japanese embassy complained to the Roosevelt administration, just before they bombed Pearl Harbor. [laughs] They actually complained that this was an awful thing that this American company was doing, depicting the Japanese as these barbaric soldiers, that they were being shown as the bad guys in this war with the Chinese. Anyway, it was one of the most graphic sets and it’s highly collectible. If you look in any of the non-sports guides, a complete set is worth thousands of dollars. Jon: When did you first meet Wally Wood? Len: I was telling Woody Gelman about EC comics because he was aware of them but he wasn’t following comics in those days. I’m sure I brought some in and mentioned Wally and Al Williamson. I remember we tried to contact Al Williamson but he was living in South America at the time and we couldn’t reach him. We did locate Jack Davis and hired him to do a funny monster set. Jon: Did you introduce Woody to the work of the EC artists? Len: Oh, yes, very much. Because of my love for EC. Woody Gelman instantly saw that these guys were very talented as soon as I showed him these comics. We brought Wally in to do a parody of Ripley’s Believe It or Not which we called Crazy Cards, not a great name but they were a funny set. Wally would draw the front of the card in a typical Believe It or Not-type style. On back of the card was the punch line and a Mad-style cartoon. Jon: With your generation’s sensitivity to comic books and Woody’s prior generation’s to comic strips, there was a real kind of synergy at Topps? Len: I think so. As for the EC guys, we also had George Woodbridge do something for us, Bill Elder came in and did an odd item for a little while and then Harvey Kurtzman was even hired as a consultant and brainstormed a few ideas. So I got to meet Harvey a few times. Jon: What years roughly?

Right: Panel from “D-Day for Dynamo,” T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #2. Art by Wallace Wood, Dan Adkins & Tony Coleman.

Len: Oh, about middle to late ’60s. I’d say ’65 or ’67, somewhere about there. Jon: Were you in heaven being able to pick up the phone and talk to these guys? Len: Oh, yeah, it was great. I idolized Wally Wood. Boy, I couldn’t wait on Sunday to go to work on Monday in the ’60s because it was just the Golden Age for me. Those first ten years we seemed to be putting out all the good stuff! Working on Mars Attacks! Jon: When you were young and just working at Topps was there a particular project that you really wanted to do? Len: I guess once we started to talk about Mars Attacks! That was the one. And there was some thought as to maybe we shouldn’t do it but the president of the company was pretty supportive. We had a pretty good track record in our little department. I mean, not everything would come out and make a million bucks for us but top management respected Woody and Stan, and if they said they really wanted to do something, the company president would just tell them to go ahead and get it done. Jon: So Topps really had a hands-off style of management back then? Len: Oh, yeah, it was great in the early days! Jon: Wasn’t Wally Wood involved in Mars Attacks!? Len: He was definitely involved in the beginning and he designed what the Martians would look like. He designed a lot of the ships, Martians, and hardware, but he didn’t do the day-to-day work on the series. Jon: Did you hang out with comic book artists to any degree? Len: Well, I was up to Wally’s apartment a number of times but that was when we started to work on T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. I was still pretty young at that time so I was like a kid to these guys, although I did get to know Al Williamson pretty well when he returned from South America and was living in Pennsylvania. He invited me up to his house a number of times and that was always a treat. He’s an incredible collector of everything from Big Little Books to artwork to movies and the work of great illustrators. It was like going to a museum and looking at all the stuff he had. So we were pretty friendly and would talk. Jon: He’s still pretty much a kid anyway. Len: Yeah, he is. He’s a 70-year-old kid! He’s as enthused about stuff as ever. [laughter] He’s great. And then with Al, he got me into movie collecting because he used to collect 16MM movies and when I’d go up there he’d always show me some serial or some great old horror

movie. I came to find out about this underground of film collectors and started collecting films. (This was before the days of VCRs.) Jon: Here we are, a good hour into our interview and now we need to start talking about the subject at hand. Len: Well, that was the most interesting stuff, but okay! [laughter] Jon: How did you get involved with Tower Comics? Len: Well, Wally would periodically come up to Topps with his material when he completed something and I always made it a point to talk to him. I always wanted to know if he wanted to do super-heroes and he said that he had but that it seemed that he was always working for companies in those days that didn’t want to do super-heroes. Now, I would almost ask you, Jon, when Wally did Daredevil, because that was certainly super-heroes, and that was a little ahead of T-Agents? Jon: No, that was before T-Agents. Len: Yeah, that’s what I thought. So he had finally done a superhero. I don’t know who contacted him about T-Agents, but one day the phone rang at Topps and it was Wally on the phone and he was asking, “How would you like to write some comic books?” And, by God, that was probably only about second best to being asked, “How would you like to spend the night with Marilyn Monroe?” [laughter] What a thrill! Are you kidding? I was trying to keep my voice from trembling. I definitely agreed to try and write something. Jon: Was this your first attempt to write something for comic books? Len: Yeah, yeah, it was. Jon: So how old were you? That was 1964? Len: I don’t remember when the first issue came out…. Jon: In ’65, so I’m just assuming this would have been earlier. Len: Yeah, it must have been about that time. I had a story in Creepy #20, but I suspect that that came later. Jon: Yeah, that was later. Len: So anyway, Wally said he wanted to do a Justice League group kind of thing so we batted around a few names. I remember that I came up with… it’s funny because there’s a saying we used at Topps and that’s “Success has a hundred fathers, but failure is an orphan.” Basically, Larry Ivie has disputed my recollection of T-Agents. In fact, Roy [Thomas] once sent me a copy of a letter that Larry had sent him where he discussed his recollection of his involvement with Wally and T-Agents that disagreed with my recollection, but honorable men can disagree honorably they say. He just remembers it slightly different even though they happened at the same time… I don’t quite

story in the first two issues and then the dinosaur story, I think that was in the fourth issue. Wally had called me up and said he had always wanted to draw a story about a dinosaur in Times Square so I think that was a splash page in #4. Yeah, that was Wally. He threw in that idea because he’d always wanted to do it. Jon: It was pretty cool because there were lots of billboard jokes and in-jokes with Wally’s assistants name all over. There’s Tony Coleman, Dan Adkins, Tim Battersby all appeared on billboards or hotel marquees. Len: That would have been Wally’s doing. Jon: There was a pretty big in-joke that took place in the first issue. Do you remember it? Len: Oh, yeah, well [chuckles]… the most-asked question of my career! I always explain that this was Wally’s little joke on me, but I was always a little embarrassed about it. Jon: What was it? Len: Well, the thing that people always ask me is how come Dynamo is named Len Brown. That wasn’t my idea. Because it always seemed like, “who is this egotistical guy who uses his name as a super-hero?” and it wasn’t anything I had anything to do with. God knows, I’d be the last guy to try and do something like that! So everybody then asks me what I had originally named Dynamo’s alter ego. When I recently moved, I actually found the script for the second issue (I could not find the script for the first issue) which would have had the name I wrote, which is the only place I could have found it. The only anecdote I can add about character names is that I was dating this girl that I was enamored with named Alice Sparrow, an odd name. I named Dynamo’s girl friend, Alice Robbins, after her. But I don’t know what Dynamo’s real name was supposed to be. I just tried to impress this girl. Jon: Did it? Len: I don’t think she really cared one way or another. Jon: Did you enjoy writing comics? Len: I liked the idea, but it was really hard work. It didn’t come easy for me. Roy Thomas was living with me and he could just whip out stories so prolifically and he seemed to enjoy it in a way that I really envied. It was never that enjoyable for me. I loved the idea of getting the assignment and seeing the story in print. I guess the work

Left: Pencil rough for unused Dynamo cover. Art by Wallace Wood.

understand it. But I recall coming up with the name of the T-Agents because, basically, I had always loved the old Phantom Empire serial with Gene Autry in the ’30s. Jon: Oh, I love that one! Len: I absolutely love it, too. I remembered that the Thunder Riders were the agents of the evil queen in the serial. I always loved the name, the Thunder Riders, so I recommended “Thunder Agents” to Wally. Jon: So you came up with the acronym? Len: No, Wally came up with that part of it. Jon: And the original name of Dynamo was supposed to be Thunderbolt? Len: Yes, but Wally switched it. The villain was supposed to be named Dynamo that he was going to fight in the story, but Wally swiped the name Dynamo and used it. I forget what the villain was ultimately called. Jon: Was that the Warlord? Len: Yeah, that’s what he was ultimately called. Jon: Do you know if the reason the name was changed from Thunderbolt was because Charlton was coming out with a character called Peter Cannon, Thunderbolt? Len: No, I don’t know. I don’t think so. Jon: I’m pretty sure Tower Comics preceded the Charlton Action Hero line but I was just wondering if there was any connection. But Dynamo is a more (ahem) dynamic name, right? Len: Yeah, I think so. I think it was a good decision ultimately. Jon: Whose idea was it to have this kind of spy motif? You know, there was SPECTRE in James Bond, 007. Len: Yeah, that wasn’t like me at all. Thunderbolt to me was from my love of Captain Marvel and I wanted to have a thunderbolt on his uniform like Captain Marvel. So Wally designed it the way he thought it should look. The thunderbelt was my concept but Wally added all of the spy stuff. It made sense, I guess, with all the James Bond and The Man from U.N.C.L.E. which was probably on the air at that point, and it probably made it more unique. Jon: Did you come up with any of the other characters? Len: No, I did not. My involvement with T-Agents was really very limited. I only ended up writing three stories. I think I wrote the lead

Right: Pencil roughs perhaps depicting unused scenes from “Return Engagement,” T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #14. Art by Wallace Wood.

was hard. I enjoyed it when the work came out but I never enjoyed doing it. It never flowed as easily as the writing of the back of the baseball cards which I did for many many years back in the ’60s. They’d have little biographies on the back and I could write 15 of them in a hour. You’d look at the record book and just knock them out. Comics would be a lot of work. I learned from what Woody Gelman had shown me about sketching out a comic page breakdown. I couldn’t draw very well but I’d rough sketch it in stick figures and then stick in the word balloons. When Wally and I were working, we’d do it the old fashioned way, the DC way. Marvel’s way was the opposite. The artist would get the penciled page and write the dialogue, but we did it the old way which I guess was the DC way in that I’d write the script and then he’d draw it. Yes, I found it was tough work, though I did have a fondness for it. I wrote a few other comics for Topps, about five or six of the six-page Mars Attacks! stories… back-ups in the Mars Attacks! comics. Jim Salicrup [editor of the Topps Comics line] asked me to do it and I enjoyed that. I don’t want it to sound like I didn’t like doing it because I would also be enthused, but the actual sitting at the typewriter would always be tough. It didn’t flow as easily as I hoped or wanted it to. Jon: Were you incredibly busy at Topps anyway? Len: Oh, yeah. That was part of the problem during the T-Agents days. In fact, Wally called me and wanted me to do another story and I had to tell him that I just didn’t have the time because I did have a full time job working five days a week. So I would have to do the writing on the weekend and was involved with this girl I was telling you about. She encompassed all my thoughts. So I actually begged off further assignments from Wally. Again, I only wrote the three stories, but I do feel that I was a core, important part of the origin of T-Agents and Dynamo at the very beginning. Jon: Did you like the comics when you saw them? Len: Certainly. What’s not to like about Wally Wood’s art? I did. I always felt that it was too bad that they had to sell for a quarter. Jon: Oh, yeah? Len: Yeah, because it made it hard for them to compete with Marvel or DC with the price because Marvel was really kicking ass in those days. They were putting out all of these great books and I think they were about 12¢ in those days. So we were charging more than twice as much. But still, wouldn’t you rather buy two books than one? 25¢ books had to be pretty special in those days and T-Agents lasted, what, about 20 issues? It was around for only a couple of years. Jon: Were you privy at all to the idea behind them about them being 25¢? Did you ever talk to Wally about that? Len: I thought that that was just what he was told. They wanted to put out a book at that price. Maybe they could see less of a print run at that price. Maybe there was a better profit at that level which I’m sure there was. I was always told back then—maybe that’s not true any longer—that the cover cost as much as the entire interior of the book. So, if that were true, at a quarter, they were able to buy that package at a pretty good price with all those pages and only one cover. That was maybe a third of the cost. I think they had business reasons

in that they’d have to sell less copies to make a profit. The break-even was probably lower but a quarter was tough to get from a kid at the time. Jon: Did you deal with Samm Schwartz at all? Len: I only met Samm twice that I recall. The first time was when Wally brought me up to the Tower offices because Samm wanted to meet the writers, you know. I went up with Wally at that point and he just seemed like a business kind of guy, not that he had a great love of comics or anything. He sounded pretty much like a businessman. I don’t remember a long meeting with Samm. It couldn’t have been a long time, he just wanted to meet the people who were doing the work and I didn’t meet him again until several years later. Everything was done through Wally. Wally would receive the script and make whatever changes he felt they needed, which was fine with me because Wally knew comics better than I did. Then I left after the first few issues. I kept on buying them, of course, and the other books in the line.

Jon: That’s one thing that Tower took advantage of in the 1960s in that they started publishing while the Batman craze was going on. Len: That’s right. Yeah, Batman helped make that happen. It was also because Marvel was doing so well… it was the beginning of the Golden Age of Marvel when their books started going big. Jon: Did you hang out with Larry Ivie, Bill Pearson, or the fan circles that were around in the ’60s? Bhob Stewart? Len: Bhob Stewart, yes, because he worked at Topps, but not Larry Ivie. Well, I always felt he was a little reclusive. I was up to Larry’s house once, as far as I know, though he’s vanished off the face of the Earth. I’m sure there are people still in contact with him. I always liked him. He was working on a book on the history of comics years ago that Woody Gelman thought he was going to publish. It was voluminous. He had quite a bit done in the ’60s. Just one of those things that fell by the wayside. Jon: Yeah, did you go to First Fridays? It was a monthly get-together type thing. It was held variously at the apartments of Roy Thomas, Jeff Jones, Archie Goodwin…. Len: No, I never did. I went to all the local conventions and I knew Phil Seuling… I had been over to his place. I had my own circle of friends that I was closer to. I got married for the first time in 1968 and moved to Jersey about a year or so after that. I was always interested in what was going on in comics and read the Comic Buyer’s Guide and all that, whatever newslink kept me connected to what was happening. In fact, I still like to know what’s going on. I still go to comic stores once a month. You know what I buy? I buy the DC Archive reprints and things like that. I loved when DC did the Millennium reprints every week and it broke my heart when the year was over and there were no more of them coming out. Jon: Did you know anything about Tower Publishing beforehand? What was Tower Books? Len: Well, I knew they had a paperback line. As a matter of fact, I wrote three paperbacks for them during the days of paperbacks, on pop music. One was a rock ’n’ roll quiz book, another was an encyclopedia on country music and one was an encyclopedia of rock ’n’ roll. I co-wrote them with Gary Friedrich. Jon: Were you happy Topps finally got into comics in the ’90s? Len: Oh, yeah! You know, my first reaction was this isn’t Topps. Because I go back to the conversation I had with the Topps president after The Man from U.N.C.L.E. magazine when he said that we had only made $20,000 when we should have made hundreds of

Left: Unidentified pencil rough depicting Dynamo. Art by Wallace Wood.

Jon: Did you stay in contact with Wally? Len: Oh, yeah, we still spoke. And he was still interested in doing Topps work. He did a wonderful series of little booklets called Krazy Little Comics, this great series parodying other comics. Roy Thomas wrote the scripts for them. Stupidman, Fatman, Fantastic Fear. Typical Mad-type stuff and Wally and Gil Kane would do the artwork. They looked great. They looked like something that was done for Mad and I know those came after the Tower work. We stayed in touch. He still had the studio and we did some stuff. Jon: Did you ever wish Topps would get involved in comics? Len: Oh, absolutely. I tell you, back in the ’60s, Woody Gelman and I talked about this. The closest we ever got was that Topps talked to Archie Comics and they were interested in putting out a Bazooka Joe title. They thought it was an interesting character and that it might work. Woody went to his files and showed me a comp that he made up of Bazooka Joe as a comic. We had actually talked about Topps getting into publishing in the ’60s and they did. They published a couple of magazine one-shots. One on Soupy Sales which I co-edited and a one-shot on The Man from U.N.C.L.E. and they sold reasonably well. And you know what happened? The president looked at what we had made on the magazines—about $20,000 profit—and decided they weren’t worth it. I think we broke even on the Soupy Sales book and the reason for that was that we had gotten the rights from Soupy directly. He was really hot at the time and someone else put out a Soupy Sales fan magazine without any rights which hit the newsstands the same week we did and the other thing that didn’t work was that Soupy was a New York City area phenomenon at the time and we were doing a national magazine hoping it would sell a lot of copies but it really only sold in New York. But The Man from U.N.C.L.E. magazine was published about a month or two later and that was a big hit. The bottom line was that we had only made $20,000 and the president of the company looked at it and said, “You only made $20,000 on this, you would have done better to have concentrated on a new card series and we would have made a couple hundred thousand dollars.” So we got away from publishing at that time. About 1989, a new head of product development, Ira Friedman, came in and he was just great. He came from the world of publishing. Next to Woody, Ira’s been my best boss. We talk to each other all the time. We e-mail each other a couple of times a week. He came from the world of publishing and was always interested in getting Topps into publishing and indeed they did. They put out a Star Wars magazine for a good number of years, and a sports magazine for a number of years, and then ultimately we got into comics when the comic boom was going on.

Right: Pencil sketch of Dynamo. Art by Tony Coleman, digital enhancement by J. David Spurlock.

thousands. How many comics make $20,000 these days? But comics were booming and they hired a nice little staff. Charlie Novinsky’s a great guy who Jim Salicrup hired. But I feared comics weren’t really for Topps. I remember talking to people at Marvel over the years and a typical Marvel book maybe made a few thousand dollars and that was why they put out 40 books a month (back when they were doing 40 books a month). So that way they were making a hundred thousand a month. And then licensing became the big thing. Probably made more money for Marvel than comics. I just never felt that Topps would end up feeling it was worthwhile when all was said and done, and yet in the beginning I was dead wrong. The month we introduced the Kirby books [Jack Kirby’s Secret City, Satan’s Six, etc.], we sold a million dollars worth of books. Over a million dollars and non-returnable. So for a while it thrived. And even in the last year, it still made money. They never had a year where they lost money. I think in the last year they made something like $200,000 on comics and it was X-Files and Xena making the money. But it wasn’t enough for the activity. Having staff and people who had to follow what was going on in the business when there was still the other core business to worry about. For instance, Ira Friedman, who was just a great asset in comics, was the publisher, but they really wanted to focus more on the cards and candy because the money there was far greater. Comics is a tough, tough business. I was stunned last month; some report came out, I think it was Diamond or IBC2, the Web site that gives comic breaking news. The story showed the best-selling comic didn’t break 100,000 in circulation and Dark Horse’s biggest selling comic for that month was 24,000! You don’t make money with figures like that. Topps didn’t break even when we sold that many. I think our break-even was around 31,000. So I don’t know how Dark Horse stays in business these days. And it was a Star Wars comic that was their biggest seller. Jon: Overall, how would you assess the T-Agents stuff? Was it fun? Len: Oh, yeah. It was. I’m proud of it. I never thought it was up to the Marvel level, you know? Maybe because it didn’t have as many titles and it was so short-lived, but I was always amazed at the fans’ reaction to it. Even today, people still remember it and think fondly of it so it was very gratifying to have been involved. The Wally Wood aspect for me was the best part… getting to work with him. T-Agents is part of my legacy I guess, which is nice. I wish now that it had worked better and that I had been more involved and wrote more stuff. Jon: Did you stay in contact with Wally Wood until the end?

Len: Well, he left the area, didn’t he? Moved somewhere out in the West? He wasn’t doing stuff for Topps and he’d fallen on hard times and was having health problems. I know he had kidney problems and was on dialysis which I heard had prompted the suicide… I’d heard he didn’t want to deal with it. But I’d heard he was doing porn strips for Screw magazine at some point. He’d fallen on hard times. I guess we had fallen out of touch by that point. Jon: Do you recall where you were when you heard about Wally committing suicide? Len: No, but I was stunned. I think someone at work had called to tell me. It was a real shock. I was horrified. Jon: Were you surprised? Len: Yeah, I really was. There was a certain depressing aspect to his personality. I mean, when you spoke to him, he was very soft-spoken, and when you talked to him on the phone there were times when you couldn’t hear what he was saying. The act of suicide is so shocking. I guess I didn’t know what he was going through in the last couple of years and he just couldn’t deal with it anymore. So I was surprised. I was shocked and felt awful about it. What a great talent whose potential, as great as he was, I don’t think was ever realized. Do you know what he always felt badly about? Whenever he would show you artwork, he would show what he was working on, and then he would add this because he’d heard it so many times, “but it’s not like the old EC work, is it?” I think he peaked, in a way, with the old EC artwork and he knew that. That was the thing that everyone loved and now EC was gone and he was doing other things. I saw that Prince Valiant page he did—that one Sunday page before Hal Foster retired—as a test, and it was gorgeous. I remember thinking that he should be the one to replace Hal Foster. But I don’t think that would have made him happy if he got it. T-Agents work: SCRIPT: T-Agents #1, 2, 4, 7.

Reed Crandall Reed Crandall was born on Feb. 22, 1917, in Winslow, Indiana. An American illustrator and renowned artist of many fondly-recalled comic books and magazines (especially his work on Blackhawk and in Creepy and Eerie), Crandall graduated from Newton High School, Newton, Kansas, in 1935, and enrolled in the Cleveland School of Art, graduating in 1939. Before going on fame as an “artist’s artist” in the ’40s as acclaimed staffer in the Eisner Studio, Reed struck up a long-standing friendship with fellow comics creator Frank Borth (best known for work on

Jon: So you two hit it off sophomore year? Frank: I don’t think I really got to know Reed in that first year, because most of the time he was talking with upperclassmen he knew. So it wasn’t until the next year that we got to know him fairly well. [unveils painting] This was done when he was a senior in art school. Jon: Wow! Frank: Imagine if you were drawing right along side of him, you look over and you see this? Jon: It’s beautiful! And you can tell it’s Reed’s style. Those are the type of breasts he drew. Frank: Oh yeah! He was good at anatomy. Every damn muscle was made correctly, right where they were supposed to be. I can always tell his work by the way he draws wrists. A lot of his work was inked by other guys. The studios would give his pencil drawings to somebody else to ink, so he could move on to the next thing. So a lot of artists learned how to copy him and study how he did it right by working on his penciled pages. And I still don’t know how Reed did it! Jon: What happened after school? Frank: Reed and I shared a room when I first came to New York, but he later got another place. His mother and sister had moved to Cleveland for the last two years of his schooling, so they followed him to New York. There was also a girl he was very fond of back at the Cleveland School of Art, who was a very shy and down-to-earth girl; he used to date her. He was very afraid about getting work, because of his responsibilities. I helped Reed out even back in school, when I offered him a job working with me in a sign-making business. We painted on the windows of storefronts—”Sweet, juicy California oranges: Three dozen for 49¢”—[laughs] and I can still remember all of those prices, because for six years I was doing it! The one I remember most were the Bing cherries that would come in. I would actually paint two cherries on the window (which was easy enough to do) straight onto the glass. So when you looked across the street, boy, it looked like they were really hanging there, with a shadow behind them, looking quite realistic. We would charge 69¢ for these signs that were painted on the glass. Jon: Would you do it backwards, painting on the inside glass? Frank: No, we did it on outside pane and, in the wintertime, we’d freeze! But, anyhow, those were the experiences of painting. Sometimes Reed and I did signs for some auto supply stores.

Left: Page from T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1. Art by Reed Crandall (with Wallace Wood).

Treasure Chest, a Catholic comic) while at art school. Steve Ringgenberg wrote in The Comics Journal #77 (Nov. ’82), “[After the critical success of Reed’s black-&-white work in Warren Publications’ horror magazine] Crandall would probably never have drawn for color comics again, had not Wally Wood asked him to work for Tower on T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. Always obliging, Crandall did so, and another classic superhero series bore the name of Reed Crandall.” Given that there are few— of any—existing interviews with Reed, who retired from the industry in the early ’70s and passed away on Sept. 13, 1982, we excerpt a comprehensive interview with Frank concerning his friendship, conducted on July 8, 2003, at the Borth home on Montauk Point, Long Island. Jon B. Cooke: How did you meet Reed Crandall? Frank Borth: Reed had originally won a scholarship because his high school art teacher had sent in samples of his artwork to the Cleveland School of Art and asked if they had any space for him. The teacher wanted to help him out. And Reed got the scholarship, went to the school, arriving one year before I did. (I didn’t go in until 1936 or ’37.) But, in the spring of his first year, his father died, so Reed had to go back home to Kansas for the funeral and he had to stay out and couldn’t get back to school for the next year. So he was missed what should have been his second year. (I don’t know whether it was family finances or what, but his scholarship was still valid, and he had it for four years. So I was in my freshman year the year he was out, and then, the next year, all of a sudden here’s this stranger, but he knew all the upperclassmen! [laughs] They were all glad to see him. Jon: What was Reed like? Frank: Oh, Reed was the easiest guy to get along with, and he had this half-Western, half-Southern drawl, and everybody enjoyed his accent. He said, “What are you talking about? I don’t have an accent!” [laughs] Anyway, everybody was impressed with him, especially the other students… except for the fact that his talent made them look like kindergarten kids! He could draw anything and draw it effortlessly, even back then. I’ve got a wonderful oil painting in my studio that he did, a semi-nude pose, which he must have given me when he left Cleveland. [Goes off to his studio and returns with covered painting]

Right: Panel detail, “The Return of Iron Maiden,” T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #4. Art by Reed Crandall, Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins.

Jon: Did Reed have the same ability at calligraphy as you did? Was it very profitable? Frank: Well, he wasn’t as adept at lettering as he was at drawing, but once he got the swing of it, he was quite good. I had quite a few relatives in Cleveland, and they pretty much ended up adopting Reed. He was a long way from home, and all he had was that little room, eating in greasy spoons, alongside all the drunks. So my relatives would invite him to their house for Sunday dinner. He didn’t have anything to do, so he would stay over. So we became buddies. My aunts were all good cooks, so he really enjoyed the meals! [laughs] Especially for the holidays! Oh, Reed rigged it so he’d somehow end up at my place! [laughs] He made sure! Jon: Was Reed very close to his mother? She stayed with him for much of his adult life, right? Frank: His mother and sister finally followed him to Cleveland, and for the last year or two, he didn’t spend as much time with me because he had to be with them, but a couple of times they were even invited over for holiday dinners. At any rate, when it came time to graduate, he was immediately offered a job with NEA, the Newspaper Enterprise Association, which had its offices in Cleveland. The paper had a great editorial cartoonist—Herblock—so Reed wasn’t allowed to do any drawing! Most of the stuff he was making were maps of whatever was going on in the world. Reed did any job that had to be done, but they didn’t use his ability as an artist at all. (Reed got the job because the president of the NEA’s son went to the art school, and the son told his father how good Reed was. But Reed wanted to write and draw and be an illustrator. So he decided to quit after the first summer, and he went to New York, and he was pretty good at being able to arrive at a complete stranger’s place and be comfortable. He found this rooming house, which was a godsend for me. I wouldn’t even had moved to New York if we had stayed at that rooming house. Jon: What was Reed’s plan? Frank: Well, Reed wanted to be an illustrator. He made rounds to the New York magazine offices, as well as those down in Philadelphia. (This was when magazines like Collier’s and The Saturday Evening Post were still doing full-color stuff.) I think he wanted to paint in oils and so forth. As I recall, the Post used to have serialized stories. One would be a Western, and Harry Blonschmidt would be an artist who did those chapters. Then another would be a sea story, and

the artist was Otto Finster. Another was a slick high society series, illustrated by this Italian fellow I can’t remember the name of. So, anyway, Reed tried to get that type of work, but nobody’s going to give a kid just out of school a big assignment like that. You’ve got to work your way up, even if you’re Norman Rockwell. Jon: When you guys were bunking together, did you talk about comic strips at all? Frank: Both of us were really thinking in terms of getting jobs in illustration. I don’t think either one of us really got off that track, because throughout all my work, I liked to illustrate the story, put details in the finished work. Jon: You call yourself an illustrator, but you’re an accomplished cartoonist, as well, Frank. Frank: [Reluctantly] Well, yeah…. Jon: You obviously understand the language of comics. Frank: A real cartoonist is E.C. Segar, who did Popeye. Back to Reed: He didn’t have any dreams though he was a rather bright man. He knew that he could get a job any place that needed an artist, as long (he learned) as it wasn’t at The Saturday Evening Post. You’ve got to work your way up, no matter how good you are. So he didn’t have to worry about where his next meal was coming from. But he soon found out that if he wanted a job right away, and comic books were screaming for a guy who could draw as well as he. He started to work with Eisner & Iger, doing Blackhawk. Do you realize that there were six characters in that thing? But Reed didn’t mind. He was a very easygoing guy… and I think that’s why his wife finally left him! Jon: Reed was too easygoing? [laughs] Frank: Yeah! So he didn’t really have a career plan or any vision about life further down the road. You just saw that oil painting…. Well, he could have gone into illustration with oils, like Helen Von Schmidt doing those Western scenes. I used to say, “Why the hell don’t you juice up your painting when you have nothing to do?” He would just doodle and draw a bunch of guys hopping on the horses to go on a posse or something like that. Then here’s the rear end of this horse, perfectly drawn. No clumsiness to it at all. The guy—get this!—just made up all this art in one swoop! Jon: Did Reed draw fantastical subject matter? Frank: No, he would just sit down and you’d tell him to draw

this, and he’d sit there and draw it. Every summer he spent with me, in my home on Long Island—we had these two drawing tables sideby-side. After I got the regular assignment from Treasure Chest [in the 1950s]—I had a squirrel monkey at that time, in a six-foot cage, but it was like a phone booth so that the squirrel monkey could go up and down, get some exercise. I used to let him out in the studio, and I’ll never forget the day that squirrel monkey got up on the drawing board Reed was working on, and was sitting there watching, and then peed on Reed’s painting. [laughter] He said, “Hey! Your monkey just pissed on my work!” Anyway, Reed had become an alcoholic by then, though I didn’t find that out until later, after he went home one summer. I found empty bottles down in the basement, hidden under my canoe. He didn’t want me to know. He’d say he was going to walk on the beach, which he could do, but he’d then walk to the village. Sometimes he was away for so long, I don’t know when he came in. Reed also worked for Treasure Chest, of course. Jon: How old was Reed when he died? Frank: Well, he went back to Kansas. His brother still lived there or something like that, and I think Reed was renting a room from him. T-Agents work: ART: T-Agents #1, 4, 5, 18; Dynamo #1.

Left: Flopped splash page detail, “The Arena,” T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #18. Art by Reed Crandall.

Steve Ditko was born November 2, 1927 in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, and developed an interest in comic books as a youngster. His brother claimed that in the early 1940s, Ditko would travel miles every week to buy a newspaper with Will Eisner’s Spirit section; the future artist’s mother made him a Batman costume, as well. In the early ’50s, he attended Cartoonists and Illustrators School, in New York, and studied under Batman artist Jerry Robinson. Ditko was soon producing artwork for a number of mostly second- and third-string comic companies. He also worked for the successful Joe Simon and Jack Kirby team during this period. Stylistically, the great Mort Meskin, Robinson’s sometime partner and another employee of Simon & Kirby, seems to have been an influence on the young Ditko. During the late ’50s and early ’60s, Ditko mostly worked for two companies, Charlton and Atlas. His work during this period was primarily in the genre the artist referred to as fantasy, which included science-fiction, horror, and super-hero comics. Ditko liked working for Charlton, where they pretty much left him alone. He was often teamed up with Joe Gill, a highly prolific writer, whom Ditko felt had a good grasp of comic book storytelling. During this period, they created the character Captain Atom and did many stories featuring Gorgo, a giant reptile from a British horror film, as well as numerous genre stories for anthology titles. At Atlas, which would soon transform into Marvel, Ditko worked almost exclusively with writer/editor Stan Lee. In fact, Lee was so fond of the artist’s work that he refused to let anyone else at Atlas write Ditko’s stories during this time period. Due to Lee’s heavy workload, he and Ditko utilized a system of creating comics now referred to as Marvel style. Lee would provide the artist with a basic plot for a story, Ditko would draw the story based on the plot, and then Lee would add dialogue. In 1961, Lee and artist Jack Kirby ushered in a new era in the history of comic books with the introduction of The Fantastic Four. Within a few years, Lee, Kirby, and Ditko would create the characters that would be the foundation of the Marvel Comics empire. With Lee, Ditko co-created Doctor Strange, and the artist contributed to the early development of Iron Man and the Hulk. But most importantly, in ’62, Ditko and Lee created the most popular character Marvel has ever had, Spider-Man. In the mid-’60s, Ditko was working exclusively for Marvel, but his relationship with Lee had deteriorated. Soon, the artist was plotting his own stories and bringing them in complete, except for Lee’s dialogue. Lee had no idea what the story was even about until the art was turned in. Even as Spider-Man’s popularity was increasing, the two men were no longer speaking to each other, using Marvel’s production manager as a go-between. Soon, Lee was assigning other writers to dialogue “Doctor Strange.” No one knows for certain why Ditko decided to leave Marvel in

Right: Double-page splash panel, Blue Ribbon Comics V.2, # 12. Art by Steve Ditko & Will Blyberg.

’66. It wasn’t for money, as the day he quit, Lee had left him a note mentioning an increase in the artist’s page rate—and Ditko subsequently returned to Charlton, the lowest paying company in the field. Rumors have flown that the acrimonious split occurred over a difference Lee and Ditko had concerning the identity of Spider-Man arch-foe the Green Goblin, but Ditko claims otherwise. Lee has said that he didn’t know why Ditko left, and Ditko has said that Lee chose not to know. But there seemed to be indications that the split had its root in philosophical differences between the two men and Ditko’s refusal to compromise his beliefs. A number of associates have noted a change in Ditko in the mid-’60s, and this change coincided with Ditko’s introduction to the works of writer Ayn Rand and her Objectivist philosophy. Rand’s writings have had a tremendous impact on Ditko’s work and his relationship to the comic book industry. Ditko now refuses to do interviews or make public appearance, but in the ’60s, he did at least one interview via mail for a ’zine, and attended one of the first comic book conventions. His output for the last three decades has consisted of what he considers fantasy stories, and his idiosyncratic and sometimes controversial political works, which are highly Randian in tone. He has refused to return to drawing Spider-Man. For over three decades, Ditko has refused to give interviews, developing a reputation as a recluse which has garnered comparisons to J.D. Salinger. Even before making a conscious decision to avoid publicity, he wasn’t known to be the most gregarious individual. Most people who have met the artist describe him as neat, quiet, and polite; just don’t get him started on politics. Ditko doesn’t feel the need to speak about his art, claiming his work speaks for itself. And his post-Spider-Man creative output speaks volumes. After his departure from Marvel in the mid-’60s, Ditko returned to Charlton. At that time, the company’s comic book editor, Dick Giordano, had been developing a line of super-hero comics for the company. Ditko returned to working on his co-creation Captain Atom, as well as revamping ’40s super-hero Blue Beetle as a back-up feature. When Blue Beetle was given his own book, Ditko created a new

back-up feature for it, “The Question,” written by the artist, though attributed to Charlton staffer, D.C. Glanzman. The Question was actually a watered down version of another Ditko creation, Mr. A., who began showing up around the same time. Mr. A, who took his name via Ayn Rand, from her usage of Aristotle’s A=A, has appeared since the ’60s in a series of controversial Objectivist-influenced stories in independently produced publications, such as Wallace Wood’s witzend. At the same time, Ditko’s most political works began to appear in small publications put out by fans. Unlike many of the early “Mr. A” stories, which were essentially super-hero stories, these comics eschewed plot and linear narration for what could be seen as comic book essays. Though difficult, these works combined Ditko’s powerful art style with powerful political/philosophical convictions into results which were anything but ordinary. Also during this furtive period, Ditko drew a handful of wonderfully rendered stories for Jim Warren’s Creepy and Eerie magazines, edited and written by the talented Archie Goodwin. He also managed to contribute work for such publishers as Dell and Tower, even ACG. The Charlton action line wasn’t a huge success, but in ’68, DC/ National Comics took note of it enough to raid their stables, hiring Giordano and a number of artists and writers who had worked with him. At this time, Ditko created two series for DC. The first, The Creeper, was a visually stunning character with an insane laugh featured in mundane super-hero tales. The second was The Hawk and the Dove, in which the titular characters were a pair of teenage boys with strange costumes, nebulous super-powers, and extreme points of view: One advocating violence and the other pacifism, both to the point of inanity. These comics were plotted by Ditko and dialogued by another writer. This would be the case for a good deal of Ditko’s more personal work for Marvel and DC, though he scripted his independently published comics. Ditko soon left DC, supposedly because he was having problems with his eyesight, though he reportedly had more problems with editorial interference on his work. This was never a issue at Charlton, for whom Ditko worked until the company’s demise in the ’80s. He

Left top and bottom: Inked and penciled cover art, respectively, Hall of Fame Featuring T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #2. Pencils by Steve Ditko, inks by Will Blyberg.

This was part of an ongoing publishing collaboration between Ditko and comics editor Robin Snyder, who would work with the artist to put out many collections of his work through the years. In ’88, Ditko created Speedball, another teenaged super-hero, for Marvel, and the artist plotted roughly half of the stories featuring the character. Another underrated series, the “Speedball” tales were somewhat of a throwback to Ditko’s ’60s work and even featured some of the artist’s philosophical leanings, though in muted form. These seem to be Ditko’s last major creative input into a mainstream comic. Even so, his work continues to appear in publications for various companies, with his art popping up in such places as Adventures of the Big Boy and Tiny Toons. Ditko’s real creative energies seem to be reserved for more political works, as well as a number of cryptic, Rand-inspired essays which have seen print over the years. In ’93, Dark Horse released the ambitious, Ditkoscripted The Safest Place in the World graphic novel, and he had a short fling in ’97 with Fantagraphics, which ended under a shroud of mystery. Yet the majority of Ditko’s serious output over the last decade has been with Snyder, who has published many volumes of the artist’s work, collecting hard to find older works as well as new stories infused with the creator’s unique worldview. He recently made his most highprofile media splash after the release of the Hollywood film production of Spider-Man raised

would continue to do his political work throughout the decade for fan-based publications, as well. In the mid-’70s, he contributed to Martin Goodman’s short-lived Atlas/Seaboard line of comics and did a little work for DC. Then in ’77, Ditko created and plotted Shade, The Changing Man for DC. It was a sciencefiction adventure with an over-arcing plot, utilizing some elements of Ditko’s political and philosophical views and allowing the artist to create his own self-contained universe for the story-line. Unfortunately, the underrated series was a victim of what became known as the “DC Implosion” when, after a bad assessment of the marketplace, the company, feeling they had overreached, cancelled many of their comics. Ditko continued to do work on a number of minor series at DC, and at the end of the decade also returned to Marvel to work on such titles as Machine Man and Micronauts. His work on Marvel’s ROM, a character based on a toy, in the mid-’80s has a garnered a cult following. During the ’80s, independently-published comics blossomed for a period due to the distribution system offered through the growing number of comic book specialty shops, and Ditko was a part of this movement, doing work for companies like Pacific Comics. One short-lived title of note was Ditko’s World, an anthology of varied ongoing works by the artist published by Renegade, a company that included Ditko work in a number of their publications.

old questions as to the who deserves credit for the creation of the web-spinner character. Ditko continues to work in comics. T-Agents work: ART: T-Agents #6, 7, 12, 14, 16, 18; Dynamo #1, 4; Hall of Fame #2; Blue Ribbon V.2, #12, WWTA #1, 3, 4.

somebody, but I can’t give you my best guy.” So he sends this guy over to my house, and in walks an attractive, youthful guy named Tom Palmer. I said, “Good to meet you,” and so on, and then I gave him a page to start. When he started, I looked at him and said, “You know, you’re too good for this. You shouldn’t be doing backgrounds. Let me help you out.” I called up Sol Brodsky at Marvel and said, “Sol, I’ve got a guy here.” (I’m digressing a little bit because I think Michael Esposito was born in 1927. He attended the Music & Arts you might be interested.) I don’t want to see Tom waste his talents on High School and later the Cartoonists and Illustrators School, in New backgrounds.” Not that there’s anything wrong with it. [laughter] He York City. Perhaps best known as the inking half of the partnership of became the famous Tom Palmer…. Andru and Esposito, Mike first met Ross Andru at C&I, and together Jon: You and [penciler] Ross Andru were an exclusive team? they produced comic book work Mike: Oh, for a long time. for Fox, Pine, Marvel, Star, ZiffIt was my whole career. Davis, and Skywald, even briefly Jon: But you did some publishing 3-D and parody freelance work alone, on your comics under the imprint own, as “Mickey Demeo,” and Mikeross in the early ’50s. also with Tower. Did that start in Together with Ross, Mike was the mid-’60s, or had you always known especially for a long done that? association with DC Comics, Mike: I had to once in a usually toiling under the while, because Ross was very editorship of Robert Kanigher, slow. When he would work on a on war stories, Metal Men, Sea job… for example, when we Devils, “The Losers,” and (for a were up at Standard Publications, nine-year run) Wonder Woman. he would take maybe three days Andru was a notoriously slow to do a page. I couldn’t live on penciler and Mike, being quick that. He wasn’t married at the with the ink, often freelanced time, and I had to support my as delineator over many other wife and kids. So I always would artists’ pencils, on titles as try to find extra work. [Marvel diverse as Archie, Iron Man, production manager] Sol Brodsky Planet of the Apes, Omega the was good to me. Stan Lee gave Unknown, and Zen the me Spider-Man, which I inked in Intergalactic. Today, Mike the ’60s, with [penciler] Johnny resides in upstate New York, Romita. Then I did stuff as watching old movies on TV, and Mickey Demeo with Jack Kirby rendering the occasional com(which were really scribbles from mission job. The following phone interview was conducted in June ’05. Kirby). I was supposed to get paid for tidying it up, and stuff like that. Jon B. Cooke: When did you first meet Wally Wood? A lot of guys did that. Mike Esposito: I met Wally Wood a real long time ago, I used the pen name Mickey Demeo for one reason: because I around the time of Avon Comics, in the late ’40s or early ’50s. was exclusive at the time with DC, and Carmine Infantino wasn’t Jon: How do you remember him? happy about it. So I said to Stan Lee, “I can’t work with you.” He Mike: Oh, I liked Woody as a person. He was a great artist, and I said, “Change your name! Everybody else is doing it. We’re going to did have some close contact with him. At a party at Joe Orlando’s be bigger than spaghetti. We’re going to be bigger than DC.” I said to house, I saw that he just loved to play the guitar. I got to know him myself, “Well, this guy’s nuts!” Little did I know. [Jon laughs] He pretty well. He was publishing a little black-&-white book for a while said, “Stick around. I’m telling you, we’re going to grow.” He wanted there, witzend. He was a real nice guy, very talented. me to pencil and ink. I said, “How much are you going to give me?” I called Woody up one day when I was working on a job and I He said, “I’ll give you $23 a page.” I said, “Are you kidding me? I needed a background man. I didn’t know who to call. I was working get $23 a page just to ink!”… Well, no, it was even less. What am with Irv Novick on Wonder Woman. I called Woody up at his studio I talking about? It was, like, $10 a page to ink. Because I was penciland said, “Look, I need a background man.” He said, “I’ll give you ing along with inking, to tidy it up, he made it $23. So actually, I got

Right: Splash page, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1. Art by Gil Kane & Mike Esposito.

Mike Esposito

shape going up and down. Each panel is connecting, connecting, connecting, like a painting. Even though each one is individual, they all have that look.” Gil and Ross both did that. Well, Ross learned it because, when he was doing Tarzan for Burne Hogarth, he learned how to think that way with his backgrounds, designing the page. When he was our teacher, Burne liked Ross. He picked Ross right out of the class and gave him $25 to be an assistant. The government gave $75. It was a on-jobtraining type thing, in 1947. He would then take an eraser and just, all day long, erase the hard pencil lines out. You’d never recognize today that it was Ross’s pencils underneath. Ross was very blocky, very hard. Jon: Did Gil hire you frequently? Mike: No, because I was teamed up with Ross and didn’t always have that much time. It was nice to get extra work to fill in with a little quick job, and I’d get a few extra hundreds to help pay the bills. I was not as ambitious. I have a bad problem: I’ve been enjoying the scenery too much, so to speak. I love to play ball…. Jon: Having a real life? Mike: Ross and I were completely different. No one could realize that we were so close, because he was the kind of guy who was so involved with what he was doing, he would shut out the rest of the world. I couldn’t do that. Jon: If I may, I’d like to ask you some names and please tell me what you know about them. Paul Reinman? Mike: I grew up with Paul Reinman. He started to work for Marvel around the time as Ross and I did. Jon: Ogden Whitney? Mike: That man I was crazy about. I thought he was a tremendous artist when he worked over at Quality, when he drew horses in the Westerns. I was crazy about his work, but Stan Lee never liked him. Stan never liked a lot of guys that didn’t know how to dramatize and use close-ups and angles, use the space in the panel. Ogden was too much of a purist. He drew too well. Another guy like that was Superman’s artist, Curt Swan. I loved Curt Swan’s work, who knew how to draw, but didn’t have style, didn’t have flair like Kirby. Ross really didn’t have much of a personality to his artwork. What you had to look to was his storytelling, which was very good, and his depth.

Left: Pin-up page, Dynamo #2. Art by Mike Sekowsky & (possibly) Mike Esposito.

the pen in my hand. I said, “I’m not going to pencil anything. I just want to outline the layouts with a pen.” [Jon laughs] And that’s why it looked so bad, but the people didn’t mind. They thought it was pretty good. I have friends to this day that remember some of that “Hulk” stuff I did [in Tales to Astonish]. There was a contest at one point in the fanzine Marvel put out, Marvelmania or FOOM, and they had all different heads of the Hulk done by different artists. Mickey Demeo came out pretty high. Who’s to know? Then this kid from England (I’ve told this story many times to many people) wrote a letter to Stan and he said, “I know who Mickey Demeo is. He’s Mike Esposito! I can tell by the way he does ears.” So I said to Stan, “I can’t believe it. They don’t miss anything.” The fans know what’s going on. Jon: [Laughs] Yep, we do. That’s why we’re called fanatics. Did you know anything about Tower Comics when it started? Mike: I did a couple of penciling jobs for them on my own. There’s at least one I know of, with guys playing a chess game with human people. What happened was Gil Kane came to my house. (Gil was a good friend of mine, and very crazy about Ross Andru’s art. He thought Ross was the most underrated artist in the business. He saw in Ross’s stuff design that was not evident to the average person looking at it. Gil was also a very fanciful designer himself.) He came to my house and asked me to assist him. I didn’t work for Tower as much as I worked for Gil, because he was the one who paid me out of pocket, and so doing, the publishers didn’t even know I did anything. It was a “Menthor” story for T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. I think Woody did a couple stories and Gil did a few. There might have been another artist doing a couple stories. I had fun doing it, but it was all from Gil, who was very good. He wasn’t putting 100% of his effort into the Tower stuff, like he might have put his heart and soul into other things, like Green Lantern and books like that. (There was some beautiful stuff Gil did for that two-tier syndicate strip, Star Hawks.) Gil’s sword-&-sorcery work was beautiful, and his design… he and Ross Andru loved Burne Hogarth. Gil and Ross adapted some of Burne’s thinking with backgrounds. Burne said, “Get a design of this big page in nine panels. Try to create a rhythm of finesse, your big

Right: Splash page, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1. Art by Mike Sekowsky & Frank Giacoia.

He’d go into it, like the multiplying camera of Walt Disney. In, in, in, in, in... Well, that’s what Ross did. Jon: Yes. You could build on it. Mike: But that’s why he was difficult to ink. That’s why guys would take forever to ink his stuff. It was good thinking. He put everything in there. Another guy like that is Stan Goldberg. He put too much in his Little Archie pages. It would take me forever. [Jon laughs] I was married to two guys, geniuses in my memory and my mind: Ross Andru and Stan Goldberg. I didn’t know how to change them, didn’t know how to make them better. And I mean that as a compliment to those guys. Jon: Did you know Steve Ditko? Mike: Yes. I never really walked up and talked to him, but I knew of him. He was a big name up at Marvel, with Spider-Man. Now he’s been given screen credits, which is really surprising. He was pretty good, a very good designer. He had a style, really a style. You could say, almost like Chester Gould had a style with Dick Tracy, compared to guys like Milton Caniff, but was even more popular than Caniff. Sometimes a style is bigger than life. It means everything. Jon: Did you know Ray Bailey? Mike: Vaguely. He did some stuff… when I was publishing, I sold the rights to a couple of books. War stuff. He did the cover stories for this publisher that took over my company. He was very good. His work is in the Caniff style. Jon: Was he British? Mike: I don’t know. Wait one minute… he also did some Catholic comics, didn’t he? I think he did, with Dick Giordano, when Dick was doing a lot of that work in the ’60s. Jon: Did you know Reed Crandall? Mike: No, but I liked him. I liked his stuff. He was not a commercial guy. Some guys who worked for Dell were the same way. Great artists, but they didn’t have any flair. Jon: Right. Good illustrators, not storytellers. Did you know Harry Shorten? Mike: I knew of him. I got a late start up at Archie Comics. Jon: Samm Schwartz? Mike: He moved to Florida, and I did some stuff for him, some pencils, up at Archie. I didn’t know him personally,

but he was a good man for what he was doing. Jon: Did Gil make a conscious decision to get out of DC for a period of time in the mid-’60s, during the T-Agents period, before he went over to Marvel? Mike: I think it was all a question of money. Marvel was getting hot, and DC was very slow on page rates. There are star ballplayers going back and forth, when they get their freedom, and they go ahead and sign with somebody else. I think Gil was one of the first guys who went to see Stan Lee, and Stan Lee said, “I’ll give you $40 a page”—which was unheard of, because they would get $25 at DC, maybe $35 a page—much more than they were getting up at DC. I’ve got a funny story about that: So Gil went to DC, and told them what Marvel was offering, but Irwin Donenfeld was getting annoyed because it was happening to more than one artist. Ross and I went to him, and then Ross figured he’d try, too. But Ross, unfortunately, always had two left feet when it came to business and stuff like that. He’d stumble over everything. That’s the only way I can put it. He was a creative genius on the draftsmanship, and I was the guy who would plot out the business end. Jon: Hence the name of the Andru & Esposito publishing company in the ’50s, MikeRoss. Your name came first! Mike: Well, actually the creative team was always supposed to be Ross & Mike—Andru & Esposito—but when it came to opening our own publishing business, we called it MikeRoss. T-Agents work: ART: T-Agents #1, Dynamo #2.

Frank Giacoia Frank B. Giacoia was born in 1925 near Naples, Italy, relocating to the U.S. in 1932. He attended the New York School of Industrial Arts and the Art Students League, counting Alex Raymond (whom he assisted for two years on Flash Gordon), Milton Caniff, Jack Kirby (whose pencils Frank would come to ink exquisitely), and Mort Meskin among his influences. Frank began his long comic-book career in 1941 by joining the Iger Shop as assistant to Carl Hubbell. Though an accomplished (if painfully slow) penciler, the artist was widely considered to be one of the most dynamic

inkers ever. Gil Kane described Frank to The Comics Journal (#127, Mar. ’89) as “an extraordinarily powerful inker… Frank had great flexibility; he could do anything you gave him.” The artist worked for many comic book publishers, among them Marvel (in the 1940s and later between the ’60s and ’70s), DC (straight through between 1948 and ’71—a 23-year stay!—returning in the ’80s), Prize, Gleason, Hillman, and Holyoke, with a brief stint at Skywald in the early ’70s. Frank also made a considerable impact in syndicated newspaper strips, with masterful tenures on Sherlock Holmes, Johnny Reb & Billy Yank, Thorn McBride, and others (though, because of his difficulty penciling under deadlines, Frank often got the help of artist friends to ghost-pencil strips). “[Frank] did everything,” Gil told TCJ. “He was a house inker, which means he inked everything he was assigned to. He did everything, from juvenile romances to super-heroes through Westerns.” In 1972, Frank served briefly as assistant art director at Marvel Comics. Quoted in TCJ, Gil summed up: “The one thing that must be said about Frank is that he was an extremely congenial guy with a kind of infectious, ingratiating personality. He was a pleasure to be with.” Frank Giacoia died in 1989. T-Agents work: ART: TA #1-12; Undersea Agent #2, 3; Dynamo #1

John Giunta John Giunta was born in 1920. Not many specifics are known about the artist, besides the fact he was enormously prolific in comics, as well as in science-fiction pulp magazine illustration, as well as the much-noted fact that he was mentor to a young Frank Frazetta. The world-famous painter told Arnie Fenner (in the 1998 book, Icon: A Retrospective by the Grandmaster of Fantastic Art, Frank Frazetta), “When I was about 16, someone in my family introduced me to John

Giunta. He was a professional artist who was working for Bernard Baily’s comics publishing company and he really wasn’t a very personable guy. He was very aloof and self-conscious and hard for me to talk to, but he was really very talented. He had an exceptional ability, but it was coupled with a total lack of self-confidence and an inability to communicate with people. Being around him really opened up my eyes, though, because he was really that good. He had an interesting style, a good sense of spotting and his blacks worked well. You can see a lot of his influence even today in some of my inkwork.” (Though Frank would soon leave Baily’s employ, John was instrumental in Frank having his first work published, in Tally Ho #1 [Dec. ’44].) Starting in the Chesler Shop in 1939 as letterer and colorist, John was also a fanzine reviewer for Centaur Publications, Magazine Enterprises editor, and art director for Original Science Fiction Stories, but is primarily known as an artist. He worked for innumerable publishers, including Fawcett, Marvel, DC, Archie, and Tower Comics. Archie Comics editor Victor Gorelick told Jim Amash, “I liked John Giunta. He was a nice guy who lived by himself, and was a big smoker. He was usually on time with his work, but he was a pretty nervous guy, very insecure, but a very nice man.” John Giunta died in 1970. T-Agents work: ART: T-Agents #3-8, 11, 12, 14, 15; Undersea Agent #1, 3; Dynamo #1; NoMan #1.

Larry Ivie

Left: Cover detail, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #9. Art by John Giunta & Wallace Wood.

Larry Ivie was born in 1936 and he attended the School of Visual Arts in New York City. A multi-talented artist/writer/historian/”Big Name Fan,” Larry was vital to the creation of at least two significant comic book lines of the 1960s, the black-&-white horror magazines of Warren Publications, and Wallace Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents, and the man also claims credit in the conceptualizing of DC’s Justice League of America. Larry was also an important contributor and editor for Castle of Frankenstein, where his comic strip “Altron” appeared. Today, Larry lives in California. Portions of the following remembrance regarding his participation in the development of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents is from Scary Monsters #23 (’97), a chapter in his essay series on the history of American monster magazines under the title “Larry Ivie’s Monsters and Heroes: The Prolog Tales.” Also included are some pertinent insights by Larry which were published as a letter of comment in CBA V.1, #17 (Jan.’02). ©2005 Larry Ivie.

An over-worked Stan Lee was offering me a co-editor position at Marvel Comics, and Jim Warren, publisher of Famous Monsters of Filmland, was making wild offers for me to produce a new title for him (as detailed in the curious story of Creepy #1 in the 1997 Scary Monsters Annual), but I didn’t want to present Monsters & Heroes (or some of the ideas with much greater financial potential) to anyone who hadn’t been tested first with other ideas, ones I felt I could leave behind, if not satisfied with the company, as would turn out to be the case with Warren. I had already given away so many ideas, with little or no income to me from most of them, one editor called me the “Johnny Appleseed” of the comic book field, and another, by coincidence, without knowing that, extravagantly told someone else I was the “Johnny Appleseed” of publishing in New York City! I thought he was going overboard until I realized there wasn’t a day without at least one story idea, title, or titles on the stands that had come from me, without pay to me… from 1960 until today! Making the feeling stranger was to see some of the weakest of those “throw-away” story ideas, after publication, being adapted to movies and TV… although none of the best ones ever have been! One of the calls I received, in 1965, was from the publisher of a new comic book company, still in search of a major title idea. It was another of those curious conversations typical of the larger companies: “Is this Larry Ivie?” “Yes, it is.” “I’m publishing children’s stories.” “Comic books?” “Yes. Have you had experience with humor?” “Some people have considered my writing humorous, I’m sure, but usually it hasn’t been intentional!” “I’d like to meet with you in my office tomorrow, okay?” “All right.” “Well, I’ll see you then.” “Wait! What’s the address?” (I wrote it down, along with the company name, Tower, which wasn’t familiar, and again, he seemed ready to hang up.) “Wait! What time? And what’s your name?” (The name, Harry Shorten, was familiar. I’d seen it daily, as a child, on a newspaper cartoon panel [There Oughta Be a Law].) My anticipation, as I arrived at the Madison Avenue building, was that I would be giving them the name and address of the individual I would convince them would be best for producing a humor title, Archie Goodwin. Shorten’s office, at the end of a short hallway, had the only furnishings—a desk, couch, table, and chairs. His editor, Samm Schwartz, sat on the couch, while I sat in a chair on the other side of

the low table, and Shorten, a very pleasant personality, stood as he explained he would like me to create, write, and draw a new comic book horror title! (I know he said “humor” on the phone!) A full-color variation of the title I had created for Warren. I said I could, but would prefer a three-story format in which other artists would draw two of the three stories I would write each issue. They might be some of the ones who had been working on Creepy, since Warren’s pay rates were among the lowest. Although I was told to go ahead, I said I would bring in something to show them on Monday, to make certain they were satisfied with what I would do. They saw no problem, but I did. The horror comic book field had fallen a decade before, because of time-consuming problems with the Comics Code Authority (a censoring board created in an attempt to limit or end “harmful” comic books). It was the reason I had conceived Creepy as a black-&-white magazine not governed by the Code. Surprisingly, Shorten didn’t seem to know of the Code. Samm had heard of it, and said he would get in touch with them the next day. I suggested they might not be open on Saturday. “Monday then,” he said. After setting the time for my return, and getting Shorten’s office phone number, in case of problems, I left to begin thinking of ways to avoid problems. Even the mild titles of the day were delayed by the unpredictable Code board. At least one issue of The Incredible Hulk had been held up because he was shown taller than others in scene panels,

each issue; one would have a continuing story. As soon as I was seated on the train, on the way uptown, I pulled a notebook, with attached pen, from my coat pocket, and began a small cover sketch. I doodled three names for the middle character, but realized they had all been used before, so I crossed them out. I would think of the others later. As I neared my apartment, I saw the familiar figure approaching of a young artist named Tim, carrying his latest drawings to show me. First however, I made the call to Shorten, and found my planned presentation unnecessary. As soon as I asked if he might consider a super-hero title instead, he said, “Okay! Show me what you can on it Monday!” I then phoned Wally. For months, he had been saying he would someday like the challenge of finding interesting ways to show an invisible character, like The Shadow. I had been involved with The Shadow’s final days on radio, on post-network episodes heard only in the West, sponsored by a publication I later did art for—Astounding Science Fiction—and some of the old episodes were now being re-aired. I told Wally about the appointment on Monday, and suggested one of the new characters could have an invisibility cloak, but, he said, “What I’m really in the mood to do right now is a war title!” confirming my suspicions that Wally’s interests were primary on things he wasn’t doing at the moment (or, in this case, had a chance to do). I suggested he spend the weekend developing whatever character he would most want to do, and join me on Monday. I would call him then to see if he was ready. I then turned my attention to Tim’s work, which they said could “frighten” young readers, even if he was friendly! One of Wood’s “Help” calls had been to do a Daredevil cover, which was progressing impressively, but said I had to get to work immediately on the Tower project, to finish at least several sample while he would “hack” out the story. As it turned out, I had to do pages of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. to show on Monday. “It might be interesting,” about a third of the story also, to get it in on time, as did another I said, “if I can make the letters in T.H.U.N.D.E.R. stand for someartist, Bob Powell. Before I inked the cover however, Wally added a thing.” (I had written the story for the first issue of The Man from woman being kidnapped, and the Code bounced the cover because U.N.C.L.E. magazine.) I wrote the letters in a vertical line, and was scenes of kidnapping could only be shown inside. On the whole, able to write in something for the first five instantly, but then had to however, super-hero titles—which were selling well at that time— pause, and write in an awkward “and” before finishing. Tim was were not as bothersome to the Code as “horror” comics had been: impressed at the speed, but I wasn’t satisfied. Since he seemed so so, as I walked along the slush-covered sidewalk toward the subway entrance, my thoughts turned toward trying to talk them into a super- enthused at being in on the beginning of a new comic book title, I suggested he meet me the next morning, for the short walk to Bill hero title instead. The major chance, I thought, would be if I had a solid idea to discuss by the time I reached my apartment, and phoned Pearson’s place so the three of us could discuss ideas. By then, I had the two introductory pages drawn and carefully hand-lettered, and it to ask them. By the time the train arrived, I had settled on the title was at Bill’s that it was decided to drop the words “and Energy” in T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents, and had favor of “Enforcement.” But I wouldn’t stop to make changes until mentally written after the first samples were shown. I showed Bill a list of superpowers, and he suggested to go with the first three—super-strength, a two-page introduction that flight, and invisibility. In trying to think of names, I mentioned would link three “Invisible Agent,” but it seemed familiar, and it was verified it had characters, who been a movie title, so I wrote down “Unseen Agent” instead. On Monday, Wally and I entered Tower carrying equally large would then go cases, his black, mine brown. We were greeted by Samm, who led us their own way to a room to the right, which had an improvised table made from a for at least long piece of wood propped up at the ends with boxes. He sat in a several issues. Two would have chair behind it, next to the wall, and I sat in a chair facing him, while complete stories Wally sat in a chair to my right. Samm said he was anxious to see

Right: Cover rough for T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents proposal. Art by Larry Ivie. ©2005 Larry Ivie. Bottom right: Note by Larry Ivie working out acronym definition for S.I.L.V.E.R., before T.H.U.N.D.E.R. was chosen. ©2005 Larry Ivie.

what I had. So I pulled out a full-size cover, the two preliminary pages: A sample of the flying-boy character I wanted to do, plus two typed scripts for that character (written in such a way they could eventually tie-in with the Altron-Boy saga, if Tower turned out to be the company I wanted to stick with). Harry Shorten entered the small room through the door to our rear to stand to Sam’s right, seeming favorably impressed. I introduced Wally, hoping they would be familiar with the past work of this artist the National Cartoonists Society had once voted comic book artist of the year. (“It would have been even better, though,” Wally had said, as we looked at the plaque on his wall, “if they had given it to me for a year in which there had actually been comic book work by me!” I recalled that year, in which we both agreed the most impressive comic book work had been done by Alex Toth, while Wally had been working on other things!) Anxious to see what he had produced, I mentioned he had something to show, also, and Wally opened his case to reveal a single sheet of paper, with a drawing of an airplane. No title, no character designs, and nothing said as he simply put it on the make-shift table for them to see! Shorten, probably as puzzled as I was, said he would keep it in mind for a future title, and gave the okay to proceed with the super-hero work. As we left, I mentioned something to Wally…. The one item in my case I hadn’t shown was a duplicate of the cover, drawn lightly in pencil, for use by one of the other artists, to draw and ink his character, with a costume design of his choice, to later paste in place with the other two. I said I would like one to be by Reed Crandall, who had done some excellently-drawn super-strength heroes during the early ’40s. At the moment, he was living in Kansas, but could work through the mail. Wally finally began to show some interest, saying he had Reed’s phone number at his apartment, and suggesting we stop by the nearest art supply store, to stock up on paper, phone Reed from his apartment, and then sit down to discuss the invisible-guy character. By phone, I described, to Reed, the character I wanted to see him design and draw, saying it would probably be titled “The Thunderbolt,” with the other two characters being “The Thunder-Bird” and “The Thunder-Vision.” Reed liked it, but said he would prefer not to write his own script. So, I said one would be sent to him. Wally said there was a problem. A writer we knew, named Len Brown, had once suggested writing a character for Wally to draw, called Thunderbolt. “Perfect!” I said. “We’ll have Len write Reed’s script.” Wally had me leave the two-page introduction, to explain the premise to Len, and then said he would have me write the ThunderVision script for him, using the idea I had once told him, in a dream adventure I had, about the ability to switch awareness from one body to another. “Also,” he said, “let’s make the guy an android—a robot… a set of them!” I didn’t particularly favor multi-gimmick characters, after Superman and Captain Marvel (a favorite of Wally’s), but I wanted him happy enough to finally stick with a character he felt was his. “And, oh yes,” he added. “Instead of Thunder-Vision, he’s got to be called NoMan (a name in the stories of Homer) because I’ve always wanted to do a character with that name. If it can’t be called

that, I think I’d rather be doing something else instead. There’s another character I want to do—Dollar Bill Cash!” I agreed to write a script for him titled “NoMan,” and brought it to him later that day, so I could finally get back to my own character. A day or two later, however, he called to say I would have to write Reed’s script, too, since there was a problem with the one he received from Len. I went over to look at it, and saw what Wally had realized. The plot, by chance, was almost identical to that in The Shadow episode of the previous Sunday, which would remain in syndication forever. A script should be on the way to Reed fast, so I dashed back to my apartment, used as much from Len’s as I felt I could, but changed it greatly. In compensation to him, I also changed the name of the hero to Len Brown. I took it back to Wally, to see if he agreed with the revisions. He did, and said he would send it to Reed, since he had to take some other things to the post office that day. Then, a day or two later, Wally phoned to say that he realized he had been longing to do a scene with a super-hero crashing through a brick wall, and standing amid a pile of bricks! Did he want me to come over and write a scene like that into the NoMan script? “No,” he said, “I’ve already drawn it, for the first page of the Thunderbolt story. I sent the NoMan script to Reed, instead! But, even though I’ve inked in the title, I think I’ll change it to something else, because DC had a Johnny Thunder character!” (Ironically, without letting me know, he selected the name “Dynamo” from my original sketch—a name used three times before!) At this point, with the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. theme falling apart, I decided it would be best to set it aside completely, as a followup title, if sales of the first warranted one. In the first, I would use “Sky-Boy” for my character’s title, and the title T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents could be changed to… I went over to Wally’s again to discuss possibilities. He hadn’t yet picked the new name for his character, and I used a piece of paper there, again placing letters in a

first reaction to the pages was dismay that the title panel took up over half the page and that there was no dialogue balloon in it. “Title panels should just use the top third. And you’ve got dinosaurs in the story. Kids don’t like dinosaurs!” (My friends and I had always reached for issues with dinosaurs first!) I wondered what he would think of the next two title pages he would see. Wally’s first episode, and my second one, both began with full-page scenes! Then he pointed out something I hadn’t thought of—that the ceiling lamps in the second panel would be out of perspective if attached to the slanting ceiling. For the first time in my experience in comics, I was receiving editorial comment that was right! Then, he brought out a page of art, for my comment, on another title they were working on. “Archie!” I said, not needing to make it a question. Tower was going to be the new publisher of Archie Andrews? He seemed disappointed. “It looks a little too much like Archie? I guess we’ll have to change the face a little!” It wasn’t just the face, the entire style was Archie, and suddenly, I began to understand! All of his views, of how a comic book should be, were based on Archie! (As I later learned Shorten had been the first editor of Archie, and Samm had probably spent most of his career at that company!) We were never going to be in tune on the production of adventure stories! Shorten, however, seemed to like what he saw, and wanted Wally and me to see him again, for an interesting offer…. The offer from Tower, at a time there was a move to give comic book writers and artists a slight degree of creative rights, was an extra $10 a page for art or a percentage of the title’s profits. Wally jumped at the increase for art, already planning his assembly-line of cheap help. “What publisher,” he asked cynically, as we discussed the choices at his studio, “has ever been honest? $10 in the hand is better than the few cents an issue the account books will probably end up showing. The ones we would be shown!” The decision, however, would not be of benefit to me, as I was soon asking Shorten if I could buy back the Sky-Boy work I had been paid for if I could provide a suitable replacement material in time for the first issue. Although page count is the primary factor to most comic book publishers, Shorten took some time to make a decision with Samm—and Wally after they contacted

Left: Pencil layout, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #12 cover. Art by Wallace Wood, based on design by Larry Ivie.

vertical line to see if the formula would work again with the word SILVER—Silver Agents. Again, the first five letters came instantly, but not the next. After a long pause, trying to think of an “R” word, I was suddenly writing over a dozen of them, but we began laughing so hard at some, I decided to leave that choice to Wally, who agreed to replace the word T.H.U.N.D.E.R. throughout to S.I.L.V.E.R.… or something! It was obvious, whether he realized it consciously, or not, that the more in the title he could feel was his, the happier he would be… which was okay with me, as long as I could get enough time to not have to rush the rest of my pages. Then Tower said that instead of putting out 32-page issues for 12¢, it was going to be 64 pages for 25¢. They would need twice as many pages… in the same time! Before even finishing the first, I began work on the second “Sky-Boy” episode, soon realizing the quality I wanted couldn’t be maintained with 20 instead of 10 pages an issue. Wally suggested bringing in other artists with additional characters. Envisioning a cover with so many characters none of them would seem important, I suggested adding a feature called “The S.I.L.V.E.R. Squad,” with a blandly-dressed unit containing so many members none of them would compete with the three major heroes. Wally’s eyes lit up. “A military unit!” he exclaimed with interest and I think he suggested a plot idea, but eventually the task of writing fell to me, along with the issue’s two-page text story, and I don’t think he got beyond a few sketches before turning the art, also, over to someone else. Eventually, even much of the work seeming to be by Wally was by others who could imitate his style as well as I could, with most of it being produced in his studio by under-paid students—using a projector to trace figures from past stories. His wife did lettering, and what resulted was often good, but not the format I had envisioned, with three dedicated creators each conceiving, writing, and drawing 10 pages an issue of a character that would be theirs alone. An additional big drain on time came with a request from Samm to see the first chapter nearing completion in pencil, before it was inked, to see how it was coming. The only one that far ahead was mine, so I took time out to take the first 10 pages (the last page not fully drawn) to the Tower office. Samm now had a small room on the left-hand side of the hall. His

Right: Panel detail, “Darkly Sees the Prophet,” T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #14. Art by Gil Kane.

him—trying to change my mind. I assured Samm I would continue to do writing if needed, and Wally, when they finally agreed, said he would get the replacement pages. He also expanded the introduction to four pages. In its original 32-page format, and with compatible editorial outlook, I would have found T.H.U.N.D.E.R. a satisfying source of income. With the changes and editorial delays, came the realization Tower wasn’t going to be the place for [Larry’s magazine concept] Monsters & Heroes, which I wanted to get back to, with both total control and the copyright. Sky Boy was too similar to Altron-Boy! When S.I.L.V.E.R. Agents #1 appeared on the stands in early Fall of 1965, it bore the title T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents, with a cover scene favoring Wally’s character and only his signature on it. T-Agents work: SCRIPT: T-Agents #1. Note that Larry also was involved in conceptualizing the series.

dynamic and excellent artistry, best represented by his foray into newspaper strip syndication, Star Hawks, in the ’70s, Gil’s ’80s rendition of Superman, and (as with the prior two) virtually any work he himself both penciled and inked. Among numerous citations, in 1971, Gil was awarded the “Best Comic Book Artist” award by the National Cartoonist Society, and he also received the 1973 Reuben Goldberg Award for Outstanding Achievement in a Story Comic Book. He died in Miami, on Jan. 31, 2000. Daniel Herman, author and publisher of Gil Kane: The Art of Comics (2001), contributed the following essay.

Gil Kane Eli (Gil Kane) Katz was born on April 6, 1926, in Riga, Latvia, moving to the United States at the age of three. In 1942, the young artist joined the Jack Binder shop and, by ’44, he worked at Bernard Baily’s outfit. Dropping out of high school in his senior year to devote himself full time to comics, Gil frequently contributed to any number of publishers, including MLJ, Street & Smith, Prize, Timely, Quality, Holyoke, Hillman, Fawcetts, and others, before landing a semi-permanent position as freelancer for DC Comics in 1947, the company the artist would arguably leave his biggest mark on over the next 50 years. Gil was particularly proficient at delineating super-hero stories, perhaps second only to Jack Kirby in excellence, but he was also adept at Westerns, romance, war, and mystery, genres which he worked in through much of the 1950s. With the return in popularity of costumed characters and under the editorship of Julius Schwartz, the artist became a quick fan-favorite with his renditions of Green Lantern and The Atom. By the mid-’60s, Gil began freelancing for other outfits— Marvel, Tower, King, Warren, Harvey, and Dell—and also to briefly self-publish (His Name Is… Savage), and (after a momentary but memorable return to DC) the artist joined the Marvel Bullpen as cover editor and a leading artist. Ever the experimenter, Gil importantly developed Blackmark for Bantam paperbacks, a precursor to the graphic novel. The artist was also known as a true gadfly and raconteur (and proof is found in this volume’s quotes by Gil distilled from The Comics Journal obituaries of old-time comic book artists found throughout this section), a veritable treasure-trove of knowledge and opinion on the entire history of the art form. But his greatest legacy might well prove to be his consistently

Nineteen sixty-five was a busy year in the comic book industry. DC’s super-heroes were still hot, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were hitting their stride at Mighty Marvel, and Wallace Wood was gearing up to put his own personal imprint on costumed crimefighters at Tower. Woody was given virtual carté blanche to come up with a line of super-hero comic books; to pull it off, he put the word out to the community of comic book artists that help was needed. Gil Kane, who had known Woody for years, was one of the artists who answered the call to pitch in. From the beginning, with T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1, Kane lent a hand with the artwork—with help from George Tuska and Mike Esposito—putting his own brand of action-adventure storytelling on display in Tower’s answer to the industry’s explosion of super-hero titles. During the mid-1960s, Gil’s storytelling was undergoing a transformation from a handsome variation of the DC house style to one which was super-charged, frenetic, elegant, and all his own, if by way of Jack Kirby. At Tower, the artist was given the freedom to open up the action of his stories and, on occasion, to even ink his own pencils, and Gil’s enthusiasm showed. Gil Kane turned in work for two of the line’s titles, T-Agents and Undersea Agent, letting loose a level of action less restrained than with many of his DC efforts. He had a great deal of fun with the numerous yarns spun for Tower, obvious to anyone who reads these tales almost 40 years after their creation. T-Agents work: ART: T-Agents #1, 5, 14-16; Undersea Agent #3-6. SCRIPT: T-Agents #14; Undersea Agent #5, 6.

Sheldon (Shelly) Moldoff was born in New York City in 1920, and as he never attended high school, he learned his future trade by slavish devotion to the work of Alex Raymond and that artist’s renowned strip, Flash Gordon. Though Shelly freelanced for Quality, Fawcett, and EC Comics in the ’40s, it was at DC Comics where the artist produced his most fondly recalled work, especially “Hawkman,” Green Lantern, and “Black Pirate.” Starting in the ’50s, Shelly joined Bob Kane’s crew of ghost artists as a longtime stint on Batman, a gig that lasted until 1968. Shelly found a second career as a storyboard artist for TV cartoon shows, on such shows as Courageous Cat & Minute Mouse, Cool McCool, and Professor Whizdom. Shelly is a veteran of the National Cartoonist Society and mainstay at many comic book conventions. He currently lives in Florida. T-Agents work: ART: Undersea Agent #2.

Bill Pearson

Joe Orlando

Bottom left: Panel detail, “In the Warlord’s Power,” T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #2. Art by Dick Ayers & Joe Orlando.

Joseph Orlando was born in Bari, Italy, on April 4, 1927, moving at the age of two to East Harlem, New York City. He attended the High School of Industrial Arts and the Art Students League, and notably was an assistant—and friend—to a young Wallace Wood when the latter worked on comics for Fox, Avon, and Youthful, from 1949-51. Steve Duin and Mike Richardson’s book, Comics: Between the Panels, explains that when Joe “eventually went looking for more work [after contributing to Treasure Chest in ’49], he bumped into Wally Wood in an agent’s office. ‘Wally was sitting there,’ [Joe said] ‘And I was sitting there, and he said, “Show me your work and I’ll show you mine,” like two boys behind the barn.’ “They both liked what they saw; so did the agent. When he gave them work, Wood and Orlando decided to work together, Orlando doing the layout and pencils, Wood the inks. “They shared a studio (with [later renowned science-fiction author] Harry Harrison) and worked together for several years, ending up living together after Wood got married. Wood’s wife, [acclaimed comics colorist] Tatjana, ‘was pretty gracious,’ Orlando said, ’but I guess it got on her nerves after a while. Finally, Wood called me and said, “You know, Joe, I really think you’re ready to go out on your own. You don’t need a partner anymore.”’” Joe would go on to be a significant contributor in the EC Comics bullpen, staying on as a Mad magazine regular well after the fourcolor comics line folded. In the 1960s, the artist would help in the formation of Warren publications’ black-&-white horror comics line (Creepy and

William E. Pearson was born in 1938. Bill is primarily known these days as executor of the estate of his old friend, Wallace Wood. In the 1960s, he was a writer for King Comics (where he scripted every story illustrated by Reed Crandall, an experience Bill called, “A joy”), Warren Publications, Western (a company he said where he had “the most satisfying experience,” scripting eight to ten issues of Popeye drawn by future Charlton cohort George Wildman), and Tower, as well as a highly-regarded comic-book “Big Name Fan.” Bill was named Nicola Cuti’s successor as Charlton editor Wildman’s assistant in the late ’70s, and subsequently freelanced as letterer for “almost every company, but primarily with Eclipse throughout their run. I did hundred of comics for them. Wrote stories, too….” Bill is also editor and owner of the legendary mag, witzend, a seminal independent “pro-zine” created by Wallace Wood. Bill was interviewed via e-mail on April 24, 2001. Jon B. Cooke: When did you first start to appreciate Wallace Wood’s art? Bill Pearson: From his work in Avon and EC comics. Jon: Were you a fan of the EC comics? If so, what influence were they on you? Bill: I was a major EC fan. I had been reading science-fiction for years, along with all kinds of comics, but when EC came along, they offered well-illustrated, wellwritten science-fiction, and one particular artist that simply blew my young mind.

Left: Panel detail, “Double Jeopardy,” Undersea Agent #2. Art by Ray Bailey & Sheldon Moldoff.

Eerie) and, starting in 1967, he became perhaps the most important “artist/ editor” in editorial director Carmine Infantino’s “daring and different” comic-book line. A 30-year veteran of the publisher, Joe would remain at DC Comics (eventually rising to the title of Vice President & Editorial Director) until his death on Dec. 23, 1998. T-Agents work: ART: T-Agents #2.

Sheldon Moldoff

Right: Cover art, Dynamo #3. Art by Wallace Wood.

Jon: The first instance I’ve found of your involvement in organized fandom was your publication of Sata. Were you involved in fanzines prior to that? Bill: There was nothing “organized” about science-fiction fandom. Individual young outsiders from all over the country were getting acquainted. Dan Adkins started Sata and I contributed to his ‘zine first, I believe. Jon: Can you describe your first meeting with Dan Adkins and subsequent relationship? Bill: Dan was in the Air Force, stationed at a base not far outside Phoenix. He saw a letter of mine in a science-fiction magazine (Fantastic, I think) and wrote me, hoping I might know some girls. His interests paralleled mine, he had access to a ditto machine, and it was inevitable we’d meet and become buddies, I guess. I was just 17, still living with my parents, but I had a job as a mechanical draftsman, making pretty good wages, and I had a car. On his own, Dan met twin sisters, aged 15, who lived about halfway between the base and where I lived. So from age 17 until 19, he and I dated the twins, produced Sata, and contributed material to many other fanzines as well. Jon: How did your acquisition of Sata come about? Any anecdotes? Bill: Dan was rapidly becoming the most popular artist in sciencefiction fandom, and was trying to fulfill the many requests he got for artwork from dozens of fanzine editors. I was becoming more and more interested in publishing. Designing pages, doing logos, assembling and presenting material creatively. Our roles reversed, and it just evolved naturally. Jon: Did you meet your goals with Sata? How long did it last and what was Dan’s involvement throughout the history of the ’zine? Bill: First I bought my own ditto machine, and Dan and I got quite expert at preparing the plates (that’s not exactly the word, but as close as I can come right now) and acquired a reputation as having the best quality printing by that now antique process. Later I went offset, digestsize, because I very much admired a couple of fanzines produced in that very professional way, and could reproduce artwork photographi-

cally from the original art. I was proud to publish the first work of George Barr, for example, who had a beautiful stipple technique that was heavily influenced by the legendary Virgil Finlay. I published several issues in that format into the early ’60s, even when I was in the Army. Dan did less and less as time went by. He was busy with other interests. Jon: When did you meet Archie Goodwin? Larry Ivie? Bill: The easiest way to remember is to go at it chronologically. The company I was working for in Phoenix lost a big government contract and I was laid off with dozens of other draftsmen just about the same time Dan was released from the Air Force. We went to New York together in 1958. A few months later, when she turned 18, Dan’s girl got on a bus to New York and they got married. I didn’t send for my girl. At 19, I was in no hurry to get married. It’s hard to believe they’ll be celebrating their 50th wedding anniversary in just a few years. When we first got to New York, Dan and I shared a hotel room in a flophouse hotel on 45th street, one block from Broadway, one of the roughest areas in Manhattan. One night a guy was murdered on the steps of the building, which was in real distance just a few feet from where I was sleeping! We were young and oblivious. Dan met Larry Ivie on the street somewhere. I guess he was carrying a portfolio and Larry asked him if he was an artist. That same day Larry took us down to his apartment on 23rd Street, the old Chelsea neighborhood with many tall-storied apartment buildings where immigrants had brought families for generations. We moved in with Larry for a few weeks until Dan and I got an apartment in the same building. Larry introduced me to a few of his friends who got together every Saturday at a private apartment in the Village and had life drawing sessions with nude models. That’s how I met Archie Goodwin, Al Williamson, Roy Krenkel and a few others. Larry had just graduated from the School of Visual Arts, which was on the other side of Manhattan, also on 23rd Street. I got a job right away as a technical illustrator for the McGraw Hill Publishing Company, which had a multi-floored building all its own right in the center of Manhattan, and signed up for evening courses at the School

studio? Ralph Reese? Tom Palmer? Larry Ivie? Tony Coleman? Roger Brand? Tim Battersby-Brent? Bill: Larry never worked in Woody’s studio either. Tim Battersby-Brent was an unhappy kid who spent a lot of time at Ivie’s place. He was a major art collector and had some talent, but he died before his 20th birthday from pneumonia. Larry and I went out to Brooklyn to help his parents sell his comic books. Before we got there, his sister threw out dozens of rare comic strip and comic book originals because “there wasn’t any color on them and she thought they were unfinished.” They had no interest in their son’s interests, and Larry and I could understand after that visit why Tim had been so unhappy. Roger Brand was an old friend of mine from my fanzine years. He showed up at my place one afternoon without advance notice from California. I asked him what his plans were. He said he was going to try to get any kind of job he could, and try to get started in the cartooning business. I picked up the phone, called Woody and told him about Roger. The next day after Roger arrived in town he was working as an assistant to Wally Wood. He stayed in Wood’s studio for at least a year, and then worked in Gil Kane’s studio as Gil’s assistant for another couple of years. Ralph Reese was a teenager living on the streets; I think he’d escaped from a detention facility, when Wood took him in. He had the foulest mouth of any human being I’ve ever met. I used to go over there and walk in on a major shouting match between the two of them. They used to argue all the time. And viciously! But Woody put up with Ralph because he was producing, and getting better all the time. Jon: Did you contribute to Topps material? If so, can you specify your involvement? Relationships with Woody Gelman and Len Brown. Bill: Never had any involvement with Topps. Never met Gelman. Probably met Len Brown, but that’s about it. I think Bhob Stewart was on staff at Topps for quite awhile. Bhob was in the mix in those years. He was one of Woody’s unofficial assistants, too, but is seldom mentioned. Bhob’s a real pal of mine, and one of the most intelligent men I know. If I need to know something but am too lazy to look it

Left: Pin-up, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #4. Art by Wallace Wood, Dan Adkins & Tony Coleman.

of Visual Arts. My anatomy teacher was Burne Hogarth. When I think about those days now, it all seems like a dream. Jon: Did you seek out any other former EC artists? Bill: Angelo Torres and Frazetta came to one of the life drawing sessions, as I recall, but just as an excuse so that afterwards we could all go up to Central Park and play baseball. Frazetta loved playing baseball. I got to know Frazetta pretty well in later years, but we didn’t remain close friends the way I did with Archie and Roy. Jon: When did you meet John Benson? Bill: Now how did you know I knew John Benson? John’s not a famous comic artist or writer, but he’s an important figure in comics history… but that’s for his interview. Here’s what I’ll tell you about John Benson. After I got out of the Army, about ’63, ’64, I was dating a crazy girl from South America who introduced me to her roommate, a crazy girl from Germany. So Friedel and I were on our first date, hanging around my apartment, when John Benson dropped by unexpectedly. The next day I heard from each of them how much they disliked each other. Next thing I know, they’re going steady. To make a long story short, John and his wife Friedel, a very talented painter, have been and will always be two of my closest friends. Jon: When did you first meet Wally Wood? What was he like? Bill: Have you got 20 pages? I’ll try to abbreviate here. I happened to be in Larry Ivie’s apartment one day when the phone rang. This is about seven years later, you understand, since I first met Larry. He wasn’t on long. When he got off, he said, “Wally Wood is creating a new line of super-heroes for a new company and he needs ideas for names, costumes and powers!” I’m sure Woody called several people that day. A day or two later, I went along with Larry to Wood’s place, which was a six floor walk-up apartment where he lived with his wife Tatjana. He hadn’t solicited any ideas from me, but I’d brought some along anyhow. Jon: Did you work in Woody’s studio? If so, what were your duties? Do you recall what projects you were working on? Bill: I was never a traditional assistant to Wood in those days. Jon: Do you recall others who worked in Woody’s

Right: Cover rough, NoMan #2. Art by Wallace Wood.

up in an encyclopedia or reference book, I call Bhob. Nine times out of ten, he’ll know the answer! Jon: Do you recall the genesis of the Tower Comics line? Bill: Harry Shorten made his stake as the writer of the There Oughta Be a Law comic strip that had been very popular in the ’40s and ’50s. He had a very successful pocket book publishing business when the comics had a boom in the ’60s and he decided to take the plunge. I never talked to him but I saw him around the offices once in awhile. He looked like the very caricature of a publisher. Stocky body, bald head, and a fat cigar in his mouth at all times. Jon: Can you give us a description of the day-to-day goings on at Woody’s studio? Bill: When Tower got to rolling, Woody rented a room in a rundown hotel with an elevator. When the morning guys arrived (Adkins and Coleman, etc.), Woody would already be at the board. They’d work until about five and go home, then, all evening, others would come and go. When the last one left, Woody would still be at his board. Everything was geared to getting those pages finished. By this time, I had a full-time job as the production manager of a Manhattan art studio involved in audio-visual presentations for major national companies. Frankly, I was making about as much money as Wood was, and working half the hours, even including my freelance work both for him and others. I think, by the way, this is one reason it was easier for the two of us to develop a friendship. He was friendly with his crew, but it’s like being the captain of a ship. You have to maintain a certain air of authority so they’ll do what you tell them to do and not respond “I’m not in the mood.” Woody knew I didn’t want his job, that it was my love of comics that brought me around, and we could go out for dinner or occasionally take in a movie or something, and it would just be a little socializing outside the studio. If two or more writers showed up at the same time, Woody would put down his brush, and we’d have an impromptu plotting session. He’d set up the premise of a story, or just a beginning situation, and invite ideas. “What happens next?” he’d say. More often than not he’d say, “That stinks!” to whatever we threw in, so it was tense. But you’d be pleased when he said, “That’s good. We’ll use it. Then what happens?” Before I’d leave, he’d hand me a bunch of layout pages on typewriter paper, little layouts with enough art to recognize the characters, blank panels between the fights.

I’d take them home, lay out the same pattern of panels on another set of typewriter paper, and write dialogue, including for the blank transition panels. He’d use some of it, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot, but it gave him a first draft. As for the art, Woody would quickly find out what each guy was best at. Some would be good at the Art-O-Graph, penciling swipes of Raymond or Lou Fine, putting the figure in a Dynamo suit. Others were good at laying down Zip-A-Tone. Ralph Reese would be a good example. When Ralph started working for Wood, he’d never before thought himself an artist. He delivered artwork, sharpened pencils, swept the floor. Eventually Wood handed him a half-inked page with little X's all over it, and told him to fill in black all the areas marked with an X. After Ralph developed enough control of his tools, Wood would give him a page and let him do some background inking, on lines that didn’t need any character, like buildings or furniture. Eventually Ralph had enough control that he could do some inking on lines that did need character, like clothes, or even figures. And if Ralph, or anybody else, went beyond their skill level, and the inking was bad, there was an electric ink eraser available, and Woody would erase the bad patch and redo it himself. A few, like Adkins, could both ink and draw. And Ralph, to his own surprise, discovered that he could draw. But everything was supervised and monitored by the boss. That’s why, when you talk about assistants, consider this: Is it important if Wood himself filled in every area of black or inked all those hundreds of lines that make up a building, with all the windows, etc.? The point is, there aren’t many real geniuses in this world, so when you know one personally, and can be a part of his process, it’s like being a part of something magical. Jon: Did you deal with any other Tower contributors? Samm Schwartz? Bill: Shorten was happy with T-Agents and wanted to expand right away. Woody simply couldn’t handle any more than he already was. Samm Schwartz had been with Archie Comics for many years. He wanted every story to be exactly ten pages. I told Woody I wanted to write some scripts on my own. Schwartz really needed scripts. I tried to write as many “NoMan” stories as possible, but others liked writing for that character, too, so I ended up writing a lot of Undersea Agent stories, and even a couple of Tippy Teens. They were all terrible, but I was learning how to write comics. I learned how to pad an eight-

Somebody else says “Yeah, she’s naked, but she hides her face with her hands.” Even Woody laughs. Most ideas are half-baked. Several have to be put together and cooked until they’re hot and a complete pie of an idea. Then a piece of cheese is thrown on that pie. After it cools a bit, some of the crust is scraped off. By the time any idea gets used, it’s difficult to trace it’s origin. Which is a roundabout way of saying no, Jon, I can’t specify which ideas of mine registered with Woody and eventually ended up as part of a plot or a line of dialogue. I’d be surprised if others you ask can supply a list either. All I know for sure is, I contributed. I wrote the Vibraman story in T-Agents #3, “In the Caverns of Demo” in #5, “To Be or Not to Be” in #7, “Pyramid of the Warlords” in #8, “Starflight to the Assassin Planet” in #15, and that’s all I know for sure. I’m sure there were a few others including a Lightning story. Or maybe it was Menthor. As for Noman in particular, he probably had too many powers, but the fact about him which fascinated me was that he was an old man. In my view that would have affected every part of his life! Completely aside from his powers, the mind of an old man in a vigorous young body would be an unsettling dichotomy, a situation any man would find difficult to cope with psychologically. I probably wasn’t capable of writing a good novel at that time, but the elements of a compelling story were there. Going into those areas would have, at the time, been more appropriate as a Marvel series, with Stan Lee driving the narrative, pencils by Alex Toth (to capture every emotional extreme) and inks by Jesse Marsh (to soften all the edges and give it a smooth, gray moodiness). Forgive me, I can be silly, too. I wish I could be more specific about my contributions… I was just on the sidelines, really, playing with these guys after a hard day’s work. Jon: What happened with the Tower comics? Bill: I guess John Carbonaro still owns the characters. Jon: Did you work on the Wham-O Book of Big Comics? Bill: Woody recommended me as a writer. I wrote one of the stories… Captain Valoren, I think. A big Toad Man was the villain. I forget who illustrated it. I was pleased to do it. They paid twice as much as I was getting from other publishers. Jon: When did you leave Woody’s employ? Bill: I was never in Wood’s employ in any official way, but I would do anything he asked me to do until the day he died. I did a lot of lettering for him, ghost writing, including on The Wizard King, coloring, production work from the early days on witzend through his later selfpublished books. He was generous without insulting me by offering cash. He gave me a lot of original art over the years because he knew I was a fan of not only his work but of all the great cartoonists. He used to kid me about being “a fan” whenever I wasn’t doing some-

Left: Panel detail, “T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agent NoMan,” T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1. Art by Reed Crandall (with Wallace Wood).

page idea into ten pages and condense a 12-page idea into ten. Somehow I sold him a 14-page story, but it didn’t appear for a long time and I thought it never would, but it finally showed up in one of the last issues, illustrated by Ogden Whitney. Jon: Do you know who Ray Bailey was? Bill: Never met him. I always figured he was a Caniff assistant who went out on his own. Jon: What did you think of the T-Agents book and characters? From your perspective were they worthy books? Overall feelings about the run in retrospect? Bill: I’m prejudiced. I had quite a bit to do with developing the powers and personalities of the characters right from the beginning. Along with many others, of course. In general, measured against all that came before and since, I believe T-Agents were the last of the old-style “real world” super-heroes, without the fantastic, fantasy elements of the super-heroes that were developing at Marvel and DC in the ’60s, and the totally bizarre characters that have appeared since. Even Superman, in the Golden Age, could be whipped in a fight. I think Woody was basing T-Agents on those more innocent days, when super-heroes were not invincible and dealt with more human situations than the super-heroes of the Silver Age and beyond who battle God-like Warlords on Other Worlds! Personally, I never was into super-heroes as a youngster, and never wrote any after T-Agents. I was so deep into the NoMan character though, that I approached one of Tower’s pocketbook editors about writing a NoMan novel. He wasn’t interested. That’s my only regret. There was so much more I wanted to do with NoMan. Jon: Do you recall the impact of the death of Menthor? Bill: I think that was Dan Adkins’ idea. Jon: What specifically did you contribute to the Tower books? Bill: I’m not particularly proud of the stories I wrote “all on my own” for Tower. I was just a beginner at writing scripts, learning on the job. I’m much more proud of the fact that I was part of Woody’s “associate team,” as opposed to his first team—Adkins, Coleman, Reese—who were employees, about a dozen guys who came and went, contributing in various ways to the comics produced in the chaos of his studio. You ask what in particular I contributed. Here’s the scene: People are coming and going all the time. Everybody’s busy at one thing or another. The phone rings. A fight breaks out. Somebody arrives with pizza. Through it all, everybody is throwing out ideas! The artists have story ideas. The writers have ideas about page layouts. There was no secretary sitting there furiously writing in shorthand “Oh, there’s an idea from Bill.” “There’s an idea by Bob.” Somebody says “Let’s have Dynamo crash through a wall and find himself in a ladies restroom.” Chuckles all around. Somebody else says “Yeah, and the Iron Maiden is in there.” Everybody laughs.

thing like a “professional,” I guess. Jon: Do you recall the genesis of Adkins’ prozine Outlet, which e ventually morphed into witzend? Bill: Dan didn’t tell me anything about it. Maybe he thought I’d try to take that away from him, too! Jon: Can you describe your involvement in witzend and how you ended up publishing it? Bill: I just did an interview in Alter Ego [V. 3, #8] all about witzend, so it’s been covered. Jon: Do you miss Woody? What was his influence on your life? Bill: Yes, I miss him. He was the center of my universe for a long time. T-Agents work: SCRIPT: T-Agents #3, 5, 7, 8, 15.

Paul Reinman Paul Reinman was born in 1910, and started in comics in the 1940s, working primarily for DC Comics and MLJ (publisher of Archie Comics) on features such as “Green Lantern,” “The Atom,” “Wildcat,” “Sargon the Sorcerer,” and “The Hangman,” and drew distinctive covers for All American Comics and Green Lantern. In the late ’40s, Paul spent time working on the Tarzan newspaper comic strip. For a spell in 1950, he taught at Burne Hogarth’s New York City art school. Under editor Stan Lee, the artist produced distinctive work for Atlas, especially in the early ’50s. While he drew many wonderful genre stories, including crime, horror, romance, and Westerns, arguably his finest work was on the war stories, where he brought a degree of

mood and atmosphere well worth seeking. Paul also spent a little time working for Archie on Simon and Kirby’s Adventures of The Fly, and drew strips for American Comics Group from the ’50s into the ’60s. He continued to be a mainstay at Atlas/Marvel into the 1960s, working on five-page fantasy stories, Westerns, and, when super-heroes came back into vogue, Stan used him as an inker over Jack Kirby, Dick Ayers and Steve Ditko. It was on the ’60s Archie Adventure line, however, where Paul become a perennial (and sometimes notorious) presence, following his time at Marvel. There he would pencil a revamped version of The Shadow (who became a traditional super-hero after the first issue) followed by a return of The Fly (later renamed Fly-Man), The Shield, The Web, Steel Sterling, Hangman, and The Black Hood, appearing in solo exploits in the anthology, Mighty Comics Presents, and as a group, in The Mighty Crusaders. Almost all scripts were written by Superman’s co-creator, Jerry Siegel, who tried to emulate a hip, Stan Lee-style, though failing miserably. Paul became a one-man army, drawing practically every story (with occasional assists from peers like Mike Sekowsky) and his quirky style makes these stories worth hunting for. Who’s Who of American Comic Books cites Paul (who also painted watercolors) as receiving the 1970 Forbes Industrial Award and a Travel Award at the Washington Square Outdoor Art Exhibit in New York City. He is also listed as a colorist over the years for various publishers, as well as illustrator for Harwyn’s World Encyclopedia and contributor to humor magazine Cracked.

The Secret Origin of Tower Comics Harry Shorten, the man behind Tower—a brief rundown of his achievements: Born 1912, sports pulp writer, editorial director for Archie/MLJ Comics from around 1941 into the ’50s, writes a panel newspaper strip called There Oughta Be a Law with art by Al Fagaly (1945-70?). Shorten seems to be involved with sleazy paperback publishing company called Graphic from 1949 to ’57. He starts a new company, more likely just a transformation of the former, into Midwood Books in 1957-58. After a brief attempt at respectable beginnings, Midwood publishes exclusively hardcore sex novels (by standards of the day) into the mid’60s. Among the people who pass through the door, names that will make fans’ eyes light up are: Frank Frazetta, Gardner Fox, Lawrence Block, and on and on. Shorten is simultaneously co-publisher with Louis Silberkeit (partner in Archie, the “L” in MLJ) in Belmont Books. They are a more

respectable, only moderately sleazy, paperback publisher in the 1960-67 period. One can only speculate how long Silberkeit and Shorten were partners, though probably longer than is generally acknowledged. Silberkeit makes a renewed effort in paperbacks when his pulpturned-magazine line, Columbia Publications, is killed in Feb. ’60 by his distributor. Starting in the mid-’60s is a new publishing imprint called Midwood-Tower, published by Tower Publications. It veers more towards respectability. Lacking time to elaborate here, readers will have to use their interpolation skills. It is the confident opinion of this author that the Tower Comics line was a brief and essentially last-gasp effort on the part of the two publishers Shorten and his silent partner Silberkeit when they found their paperback lines were going down the tubes. With the censorship laws in the U.S. becoming liberalized in the mid-’60s, they 85

could see the writing on the wall. Everybody, from legitimate publishers to johnny-come-lately new entrants started porn—now called “erotica”—lines and Midwood Books lost their dominant share of the marketplace. Belmont was just sleazy, cheap and lousy, dying of natural causes. Shorten with Silberkeit —perhaps hiding in the background to protect his Archie image—were just one of many quick-buck artists who got back into super-hero comic publishing around 1965, spurred by a renewed interest in nostalgia and pop culture. This was further escalated by the Jules Feiffer article in Playboy that became the book The Great Comic Book Heroes. Hugh Hefner started showing old Batman serials at his famous quasi-orgy parties at the Playboy Mansion. The publicity lead ultimately to a successful matinee theatrical release of Batman in 1964-65. This led to the TV show, and the rest is history. —Michael Feldman

Samm Schwartz Sam (Samm) Schwartz was born on Oct. 12, 1920, and grew up in Brooklyn, New York. He attended the Pratt School of Design, among other art schools. Though Sam (who also worked as a staffer in the Demby shop in the early 1940s), is best known as the pre-eminent artist on Archie Comics’ “Jughead” strips, his early work for MLJ includes the super-hero strip, “Black Jack.” Of his ’50s work on “Jughead” and “Reggie,” Paul Castiglia writes in Comic Book Marketplace #55 (Jan. ’98), “Looking at his work from this period, his comedic flair, graphic design and pacing are

Comics’ official comics editor (and resident Archie-type cartoonist) Samm Schwartz, conducted by Angel Marcana and William Bracero. Originally titled “We Face Tower!” the piece included a prologue and epilogue, which are included. Prologue: When we reached 185 Madison Avenue at noon on August 19th, we were almost dead on our feet. We had gotten on the wrong train, took the right train to the wrong station, walked dozens of blocks in the wrong direction, and finally gave up and took a taxi to the place! Oh, how we fans suffer for our cause! But it was worth it all! Our fatigue left us as we entered the office of Tower’s editor. True, the place was not the bridal suite, but it was our goal, and we had reached it. There was the usual conglomeration of paper, ink bottles, T-squares, drawing boards, bulletin boards, finished and unfinished strips and the smell of ink everywhere; but it all 86

Left: Panels from opening page, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #19. Art by Paul Reinman.

Paul drew a few features for the Tower Comics line, working on “Dynamo” and “Undersea Agent,” possibly over Wallace Wood layouts. (Paul had worked for Avon for a brief spell in 1948, where he quite possibly first met the young artist Wood.) Paul would move back to Marvel in the latter ’60s, doing uncredited production work and an occasional ink job. In the ’70s, the artist would show up from time to time drawing mystery stories, as well as fill-in strips for Hero for Hire and Ka-Zar. He also reportedly did some stories for Gold Key. I am uncertain of exactly when Paul passed away, but his last comics work was seen in the mid’70s.—Nicholas Caputo T-Agents work: ART: T-Agents #13, 19; Dynamo #3; NoMan #1.

flawless. Schwartz knew the value of page layout, and pushed the envelope perhaps more than any other Archie artist of his time, often experimenting with unusual or open panels and never being afraid to go beyond exaggeration for a laugh.” Starting in 1939, Samm stayed with Archie Comics for some 50 years (!), even taking into account a leave of three years to serve as editor of the shortlived Tower Comics line (between 1965-67). The artist also worked for Ace, Fiction House, and DC Comics. Samm, who died of cancer in 1997, was quoted in CBM as saying, “I may not be a wealthy man and leave a lot of riches behind, but at least I know I made a lot of children laugh.” The following interview was originally published in the fifth issue of Bombshell, a 1960s fanzine, and it features a talk with Tower

reflected the energy and devotion of comicdom’s biggest new offspring. Schwartz, the man whom we would interview, motioned to us to sit down, then sat down himself. He was of medium build, white, with thinning black hair, and glasses. He looked like a man in his late thirties, or early forties. He had a low, deep voice and a rather easygoing manner. Perhaps that’s why he wasn’t bothered by our being two hours late. “Fire away!” he said. Here’s what followed: Bombshell: How did Tower get started? Samm Schwartz: Well, Tower was in the publishing business for a while, then last year we decided to go into the comic book field. That’s all there is to it! Bombshell: What inspired you to create T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents? Samm: Inspired? No, that’s the wrong word. We didn’t need inspiration to create the characters. All we do is kick around some ideas—that’s all. We aren’t inspired to do anything. Bombshell: Who were the artists and writers on the first T-Agents? Samm: The first T-Agents? Weeell, let’s see: There was Wally Wood, Mike Sekowsky, Lou Silverstone—they were all artists. Leonard Brown was our writer. Bombshell: We know that most of your staff is freelance, but are there any of them that have favorites? Samm: Well, Wally Wood writes and draws Dynamo. Beyond that, everyone does whatever’s handed to him. Bombshell: Besides Dynamo and NoMan, are there any more characters slated to appear in their own mags within the year? Samm: No-o-o. Bombshell: Are there any new characters on the horizon along with new artists and writers? Samm: Well, we’re always on the lookout for new artists and writers. Bombshell: Will Menthor be back? Samm: No. Gee, we got a lot of reaction in the mail to that. A lot of them wanted to bring him back while others wanted him to stay dead. Bombshell: What did the majority want? Samm: Oh, it was pretty much split down the middle. Bombshell: Is it too early to ask how The Raven has been received? Samm: Yes, but so far what we’ve gotten has been favorable. Bombshell: Who’s The Raven’s artist? Samm: Manny Stallman. Bombshell: Do you plan to bring back T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Squad in their own strip? Samm: Occasionally, from time to time. Bombshell: Does that mean you’ll add extra pages for them? Samm: No, they’ll just replace somebody. Bombshell: Will we see more of The Iron Maiden? Samm: No, she’ll be wearing the same amount of armor. Bombshell: No, you misunderstood. What we’re asking is whether the triangle between her, Dynamo, and Alice will be further developed. Samm: You mean you really think there’s a triangle? I never noticed it myself, so I can’t say. Bombshell: Since your regular mags are already giant-size, what will

you do for an annual? Most companies do publish them. Samm: That’s an interesting question. I never thought of it before…. Well, most of the annuals nowadays are merely reprints and, of course, we’re in no position for reprints just now. As you know, [page signatures are printed] in multiples of 16—so I suppose ours will have to be about 96 [pages] or something. Bombshell: Do you check on your competition? Samm: Certainly we do, and we’re sure they read our stuff. Bombshell: Well, since you say you check on the competition, and have guys like Mike Sekowsky and others who also work for DC, shouldn’t you be familiar with The Flash? If so, how can you claim Lightning isn’t a copy? Samm: Well, look: The other companies have been around for a long time, while we’ve been around only for about a year. All superheroes are basically the same, if you think about it. Besides, we feel that there are enough differences between Lightning and The Flash to make him not look like a copy. Bombshell: What are the general salaries for artists and writers? Samm: Well, we don’t have any “general salaries.” These guys are freelance; their income is never the same from week to week. As you know, their pay is based on the number of pages. Bombshell: What are your opinions of fandom, fanzines and stuff like that? Samm: Well, I don’t know too much about fanzines and stuff like that. Wally Wood, though, has started his own fanzine. He’s going to run into competition, though. But all of his friends are chipping in. Bombshell: What do you think of the comics industry as a whole? Samm: Well, it beats working for a living! Seriously, though, I think it’s a big, serious business—more serious than many people realize. It contains a lot of talented and hardworking individuals, and it’s all a very gratifying occupation to be in. Epilogue: Our questions over, we were about to leave, but got into a private discussion with Schwartz. When that was over, we left, had some refreshments at a nearby luncheonette, speedily found a subway line that would take us home, and arrived at our respective abodes without any mishap. We had beheld and harkened to the voice of Tower, and we would now have to hand down to posterity what we had seen and heard. (Dig that wording, man!) T-Agents work: EDITOR: T-Agents line; Artist: Tippy Teen.

Michael Sekowsky was born in New Jersey on Nov. 19, 1923, and after attending the School of Industrial Arts in New York, he joined Marvel Comics (then called Timely) for a long bullpen stint commencing in 1941, where the artist proved adept at drawing stories for virtually every genre, from funny animal to super-hero to romance to Westerns. Gil Kane said of his one-time SIA classmate, “[Mike] ultimately emerged as one of the top pencilers at Marvel, and was with them through their many shakedowns… He rode out the booms in Western and romance comics, too.” [Comics Journal #129, May ’89] After Marvel’s 1957 near-collapse, and upon freelancing for just about every U.S. comics publisher, Mike settled at DC Comics in the late ’50s, significantly working for editor Julius Schwartz on the artist’s most fondlyremembered assignment, Justice League of America, between 1959 and ’68. (Though prolific at DC, Mike also found time—as he is often recalled as one of the fastest artists in the business—to pencil some Tower Comics art jobs.) In 1968, Mike was given a position as editor at DC (during editorial director Carmine Infantino’s era of the “Artist/Editor”), where he also tried his hand at scripting, producing some notable series, including “Supergirl,” Metal Men, “Jason’s Quest,” and (this writer’s favorite Sekowsky series), the “new” adventures of Wonder Woman [Vol. 1, #179-198]. This was an especially productive period for Mike, when he experienced unprecedented creative control, a time he called one of the best of his life. “Mike always had a crisp, clear steady line that I always thought would have stood him in good stead in the advertising industry,” Gil said to TCJ. “That crispness, that sense of design and shape made him sensitive to fashion, and that sense of design was very useful to his work.” Sadly, throughout his life, Mike was plagued by alcoholism and perhaps a bipolar disorder (a surmise ventured by his second wife, Pat, who contributed to this piece) and this, combined with a bitter temper—he didn’t have the nickname “The Mad Russian” just because of his shocking bleach-white hair!—his salad days as writer/artist/ editor abruptly ended with Mike returning to a freelance career, bouncing between companies and between genres. In the late ’70s, Mike began a new career in the growing field of television animation, another industry perfect for his high-speed rendering and exquisite sense of design. The artist thrived for a time in Hollywood, though sporadically contributing to comics, but his maladies worsened and Mike died on March 31, 1989, due to complications from diabetes.

Left: Illustration, text page, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #2. Art by Mike Sekowsky.

Mike Sekowsky

“He was an extraordinarily intelligent guy with an extraordinary sense of humor,” Gil told TCJ. “He had a very sharp, dry, and sometimes sarcastic sense of humor, and he loved needling people. But he seemed to do best in a fixed situation with people he knew.” T-Agents work: ART: T-Agents #1-12; Dynamo #1, 2; Undersea Agent #2, 3.

Harry Shorten [The following information was posted at the Web site devoted to the MLJ super-heroes, <www.mightycrusaders.net>, submitted by the late Tower Comics publisher’s eldest grandson, Robert L. Lemle.] Harry Shorten (1914-1991) Born to Russian/Polish immigrants, Joseph and Leah Shorten in New York, New York. Attended Thomas Jefferson High School and New York University in the early ’30s, where he starred as a half-back for their football team. Nicknamed “Streaky.” Married to Rose Sadoff. Children Linda and Sue. Grandchildren Robert and Laura Lemle, and Andrew and Jonathan Proctor. After a brief pro football career, Harry began writing and publishing. His first book was How to Watch a Football Game, a guide for husbands to teach wives the finer points… [to share] their interest. In addition to being the creative force behind The Shield and Archie Comics, he created [Tower’s] Tippy Teen comics and the [daily newspaper comic panel] feature, There Oughta Be a Law, with partner Al Fagley. In the early ’60s, he founded Midwood Towers Publication, publishing paperback pocket books and Afternoon TV magazine. In the early ’70s, he created the Daytime TV Soap Awards, honoring the

Right: Photo of Dec. 29, 1969 There Oughta Be A Law strip (featuring caricature of writer Harry Shorten, left). Art by Whipple. TOBAL ©2005 the respective copyright holder. Photo ©2005 Eric Agena. Please visit Eric’s Web site, <www.comicstripfan.com>.

daytime drama actors of the time.—Robert L. Lemle (Larry Ivie, in a letter to CBA V.1, #17, tells that, “Although the death of Menthor was mentioned… it was without the more interesting note that Harry Shorten… had presided over an earlier major sudden-death: The Comet [Pep Comics #17, July ’41]… A new feature, “The Hangman,” took over his spot with a hero whose mission was to avenge The Comet’s death. There was little in the ’60s titles, at all companies, that had not been done before.”) T-Agents work: PUBLISHER: Tower Comics.

got the dictionary and learned it means double-sided, so we called him John Janus. (I wanted to call him Conrad Janis, after the jazz musician, who later acted on Mork & Mindy, the TV show with Robin Williams, where he played the father.) Bob: One unique thing about T-Agents is that virtually every character is named after a real-life person. Len Brown, who wrote for Tower and also worked at Topps, was the name of Dynamo’s civilian identity. Kitten Kane was named after artist Gil Kane. What was the motivation for that in-joke thing? Lou: That I don’t know. The only real-life names I used was when I wrote a “Junior T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents” text piece in one issue where I used the names of my son and some of his friends. Matthew Frank is Louis Silverstone was born in Plainfield, New Jersey, where he grew my son’s name, and his friends were Philip and Mark. (I wanted to up, and he attended the University of Illinois. Upon moving to New York, Lou contributed extensively to Mad magazine (as well as writing make the “Junior T-Agents” a regular text feature, but I didn’t have any say in the matter.) I got the assignment when Samm Schwartz, for Tower Comics in the ’60s), and later served as editor and head the editor, gave me a call when I was on vacation in Canada, and said writer for Cracked magazine. (Other career highlights are featured in he needed a two-page text piece. So that’s how I got that. the following interview conducted by Robert Sodaro.) Today, Lou Bob: Unfortunately, comics don’t have text features any more. resides in Port Jefferson Station, New York. Today it’s all pictures and art, with no text features like there was in Bob Sodaro: You were part of the launch of the original the old days. T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents comic book series? Lou Silverstone: Yes. I had worked with Wally Wood when he Lou: I know. I always liked text features myself. had been at Mad. He left Mad for reasons… God knows why… and Bob: I think you and I are in the minority there. Can you tell me a little bit more about your involvement in T-Agents at the time? I was working for a men’s magazine, doing a sexy comic strip. So I Lou: I created that one character, Menthor. I didn’t use my name in called up Wally because I knew that he drew sexy women, and we worked together on that. Then a few weeks later, Wally called and said the credits because, at the time, I was working for Mad and [Mad he was doing a new comic book, T-Agents, and he needed characters, editor Al Feldstein] didn’t want freelancer names in any rival publicaso I went over to his digs and we kicked ideas around. He wanted the tions, though I wasn’t sure if he would consider Tower a rival, because we were only getting $10 a page, and Mad paid a hell of a lot characters to use special equipment so he decided one would wear a helmet, and I decided to make the character a sort of reverse Dr. Jekyll more than that! So I didn’t use my name, which is why all of my and Mr. Hyde character, an evil guy who becomes good when he puts contributions are unknown. Most of the work I did was in the first four or five issues. I most enjoyed writing “T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Squad” because on the helmet. That was Menthor. I gave him the name Janus after I the characters were all different, and I love writing dialogue for multiple characters. So I did a number of those, too. The stories that are credited as “writer unknown” are mostly mine. Bob: What pseudonym did you use…? Lou: I didn’t use any name. Once they published a bunch of contributor names in the comic, but mine was not listed. Bob: What were you doing for Mad? Lou: For Mad, I wrote TV show satires. I worked there for 25 years. Then I went over to Cracked as editor and

Lou Silverstone

Don Martin was called “Mad’s Maddest artist.” Whether or not that’s true, I don’t know. Wally liked to smash his characters through a brick wall. He was such a fantastic artist, and it was pure luck that I was able to work with him. When I went over to Cracked, John Severin was another great artist I got to work with. I wish I could tell you more about T-Agents, but I was just an independent worker, so it’s difficult. Bob: In addition to T-Agents and Mad, what else have you done? Lou: I did a lot of writing in animation, including The Jackson 5ive. Michael Eisner, the head of ABC at that time, saw the group perform in Las Vegas, and he thought they would make a good TV series. Jack Davis, who is also a Mad artist, was hired to do the caricatures. I also did Candid Camera and several one-hour animated specials, one for King Features, which starred every King character there was, from Popeye to Prince Valiant. I also worked with Al Capp on Li’l Abner, which was fun. I did comedy bits for a stage show called “Freedom Jam” that toured schools and colleges during the Bicentennial. I had a radio show. I did a lot of men’s magazines and stuff like that. When I moved over to Cracked, readers said that “Cracked sucks and Mad kicks ass,” but gradually we got more and more letters that said, “Cracked rules!” which was fun. Bob: You also have a couple of books out there: Politically Mad, The Mad Tell-It-Like-It-Is Book, Mad Book of Horror Stories, Yecchy Creatures and Other Neat Stuff, Mad Book of Mysteries…. Lou: Yeah, I did six of those books, which were great. That was another thing at Mad: Those books were a great source of income, because we got a big up-front fee. Now that I’m freelancing, it’s not the same thing. It’s hard to even get someone to look at scripts, because they all want you to have an agent. I wanted to do a comic book, and sent a five- or six-page detective story to Image, and they e-mailed a reply that said it would make a great comic book and they kept sending me encouraging

Left: Splash page, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #2. Art by Mike Sekowsky & Frank Giacoia.

head writer. It was fun doing Tower, but then they had a financial problem there so… I guess you could say this is inside information! [laughs] We were getting $10 a page, which was horrible, but we were doing something entirely different. Then Wally called up and said he was taking over completely. He said he just wanted, more or less, a very rough script, which he’s going to re-write and edit, and then the writer would only get half the money, $5 a page! I said, “No way!” Wally said, “Well, the other writers don’t object.” But I did. So I went to [Tower Comics editor] Samm Schwartz, and he said, “Well, go write Tippy Teen,” which was their other comic book title, which wasn’t any fun to write anyway. (I also actually wrote a “Little Archie” one time.) Bob: So what do you think of The T-Agents Archives? Lou: Oh, I think it’s beautiful, only now I wish I had used my name! [laughter] DC did a beautiful job. Most of what I wrote for Tower ended up in the first volume. I can say that almost every story starring Menthor and TSquad listed as by “writer unknown” is by me. Bob: Is there any other information about what was going on at the time? Lou: I only worked for Wally. I used to go up to his place and we’d kick around ideas. I never met any of the other writers or artists. With the exception of the Marvel bullpen, most writers and artists worked at home. We never saw each other. (That’s why the Mad trips were so great: As a group, we spent time together, going to different places.) I’d write a script, they’d hand it to an artist, and I didn’t see it until it was printed. Bob: The T-Agents have survived to this day because of the legacy of Wally Wood. Lou: To me, Wally was just a former Mad artist who was down on his luck, more or less, who created a lot of his own problems. He had a lot of demons in him, but when I worked with him, he wasn’t drinking anything stronger than Pepsi Cola. He’d just sit there at a drawing table, sipping Pepsi. I still don’t know why he left Mad, because he was one of the originators, but there was one story that he didn’t get along with the editor. The version that I heard was he was jealous that

Right: Panel from T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #7. Art by Mike Sekowsky & Frank Giacoia.

notices—”It’s good! We’re going to use it”—but they finally rejected the damn thing. So I went and bought 22 Image books and, boy, they’re terrible! I couldn’t follow the stories, and the artwork was, at best, mediocre. T-Agents work: SCRIPT: T-Agents #1-6.

Steve Skeates [Stephen Skeates was born in 1943, and he attended Alfred University, New York. Steve has written for virtually every comic book publisher since the mid-1960s (including Tower, natch), and in 1975 he won the Academy of Comic Book Arts “Shazam!” award for “Best Humor Writer.” Though renowned for his jocular work (as well as his endearing cartooning), Steve has also written in multiple genres, including Westerns, horror, teen humor, sword-&-sorcery, and war. The writer/cartoonist lives in Fairport, New York. The following essay, with accompanying three-page comics story (both by Steve) was produced exclusively for CBA V.1, #14, where they first appeared.] So, who was that resourceful madman, the one who (for a while at least) took NoMan out of the game simply by placing this monumentally powerful android, this so-called “invincible” agent, in captivity, tying him down within a locked room, a veritable vault? I suppose a number of you are already well aware that this seemingly impossible happenstance transpired within a taut and tightly-knit tale aptly entitled “The Trap!” A mere ten pages in length, this minor epic wormed its way into the consciousness of its fairly limited audience via the eleventh issue of the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents comic book, way back in March of 1967—a tale which still stands as my own personal favorite among all the various yarns I had a hand in spinning for the Tower publishing group. But, to return to my original inquiry here, the one concerning the identity of this particular entry upon NoMan’s long list of maniacal adversaries—the truth of the matter is, in my youthful enthusiasm, eager to get this story written and sold, to see it drawn, to have it published, I never even gave the dude a name. Still, said crazy person

did possess the relatively disconcerting habit of referring to himself as “The King of the World!” At least that’s something. Furthermore, artist John Giunta was gracious enough to provide this unnamed character with a very distinctive visual personality! Dressed regally but with an insane overblown edge to his outfit, a surplus of pretentiousness, as though we were being confronted by a doorman with definite delusions of grandeur at some posh uptown apartment complex rather than by an actual king. Tall and lanky and with a pencil-thin mustache—those aspects making him look rather like a Snidely Whiplash that we were all taking a tad too seriously. Actually, though, this apparently silly appearance was more than minorly befitting, especially considering the stilted melodramatic dialogue I had a tendency to employ back in those crazy days. Just listen to him: “You see, NoMan! You can’t transfer your mind! The mento-barrier disc prevents that! And those solid steel bonds make it impossible for you to get free! You’ll never escape… nor will anyone be able to save you… for, once I close this door, this cell will be automatically sealed for all time! Even I will be unable to re-enter!” The villain departs, loudly slamming the door behind him, and NoMan, obviously caught up in the moment, his dialogue strangely mirroring the pomposity of his captor, says to himself: “I must not give up hope! But I’m afraid that… this is the end! And worst of all, since I’m the ‘immortal agent,’ I won’t be stuck here for simply a normal lifetime, but for a lifetime of lifetimes! I’ll be doomed to spend the rest of eternity, trapped! If only I hadn’t been so foolish as to walk right into this….” Ah, an “if only…”! Obviously, then, this opening scene is but a framing device, and we (as I now adroitly become one with those readers way-back-when) are about to enter a flashback, about to see how NoMan got himself into this predicament, about to view this awesome adventure through the eyes, the mind’s eye, the very memory, of this hero himself. No wonder I have such affection for this particular tale! I’ve always loved framing devices, became enamored of them via reading those great old Spirit stories written and drawn by that master of the comic book form, Will Eisner. Highly polished, gem-like, totally 91

reality—or should I say “surreality”?—to use as the model for the world in which I would ensconce the so-called Swift Agent! Oh sure, being a green kid comic book-writing-wise, I wasn’t quite up to the task I had set up for myself, my Lightning adventures never being quite as whacky as I wanted them to be. Furthermore, I was the only one who worked for Tower who felt that Lightning should be handled in this fashion, and that too led to a number of problems. For example, the very first villain that the swift agent faced, that Prussian desert pilot who had created that evil substance known as the Deadly Dust, originally sported what I felt was quite the appropriate moniker—Baron Waste! Imagine my chagrin, then, when, upon reading the published version of my very first “Lightning” scripting effort, I discovered that without my knowledge the evil Baron had suffered a name change, that he was now known as Baron Von Kampf. Surely not a bad handle at all for such a kill-crazed dude, yet definitely devoid of the alternate-reality silliness I was aiming for. All in all, though, my working relationship with Tower was a good one. In fact, as quite the novice, one whose reach far too often exceeded his grasp, I was probably entrusted with far more responsibility than I should have been. One need only look closely at my aforementioned very first “Lightning” scripting effort to see what I mean—the verbosity, those huge balloons leaving so little room for any artwork! And then there’s the fact that Guy Gilbert gets shot at point-blank range, yet survives without even a wound, while (rather unbelievably) I never even bothered to explain how he pulled that one off! I’m surprised those in power (Harry Shorten, Samm Schwartz, and Wally Wood) after that one ever let me write another Lightning, NoMan, Undersea Agent, or Raven story, but I’m damn glad they did! The chance to work—with the likes of Woody, Mike Sekowsky, Steve Ditko, Ogden Whitney, Chic Stone, and Gil Kane—for the fresh-faced, admittedly rather fannish kid I was back then, how could such as that help but be one of the biggest thrills of my life? My use in the paragraph above of the term “worked with” may be a touch misleading, however—seeing as I had so amazingly little contact with the above-named artists. I never even talked to Ogden Whitney, although I did pass him in the hall once. It would be later, while I was working for Charlton, that I would come face-to-face with Steve Ditko, and later still (while I was working for DC) that I would first meet Sekowsky and Kane! Y’see, being a freelancer, I did all my writing work at home, pounding away on a portable manual type-

Left: Splash panel, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #11. Art by John Giunta.

self-contained six- and seven-pagers. No huge and ungainly story arcs belaboring the inner-workings, every minor psychological glitch, to be found within one highly neurotic super-hero or another (or, more accurately, someone who calls himself a hero, yet more often than not acts more like a villain himself)—seemingly endless, nit-picking, basically unstructured pseudo-stories that somehow became quite fashionable in the ’80s and the ’90s and beyond, bloated repetitious overly-violent nonentities that only someone every bit as neurotic as the “heroes” of these sick constructs could possibly get into, could possibly enjoy. Nope, none of that! But large ideas, huge concepts, handled economically. And, that’s what I was striving for here as well—an actual story with an actual beginning, middle, and end, with even the villain of the piece accidentally perishing once his nefarious scheme had been foiled. Eisner, though, wasn’t the only hero of mine whom I attempted to emulate. There are (that is to say) certain flowing passages within certain Tower tales of mine in which I sought to display a sort of pacing similar to that which the great Jack Kirby would employ within his wondrous Fantastic Four output. Also, the T-Agent I most often wrote for, scripting all but two of his Tower adventures—Lightning by name—I consciously, purposely attempted to base this sober, stern, super-serious super-hero not upon the Flash (even though, as this character’s creator, the one and only Wally Wood, had originally set things up, Lightning—outside of the lifeshortening aspect of his powers and the fact that he wore goggles—essentially was The Flash), but upon Simon & Kirby’s Fighting American. To flash back a bit my own self—when I first read those beautifully entertaining adventures of what I quickly learned was not your regular ordinary red-white-&-blue overly patriotic hero, I saw that obviously Fighting American and his requisite juvenile sidekick were just about the only sane inhabitants of a topsy-turvy comedic world in which puns abounded and villains were total crackpots, yet FA and his under-age cohort never even cracked a smile (let alone fell down and rolled around laughing, as I figure any of us under similar situations would surely have proceeded to do); instead, they took every bit of this world’s intrinsic wackiness perfectly seriously. Thus, always having perceived humor to be rather my long suit—and especially considering that Guy Gilbert had been around for three issues, functioning as the strict and seemingly humorless leader of that Challengers of the Unknown rip-off known as the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Squad, prior to becoming Lightning—I viewed Fighting American’s surroundings as the downright perfect

writer, getting my fingers so grubby thanks to the fact that no one used Xerox machines back in those days—all the writers I knew employed (as I did) carbon paper to make their file copies—and visiting the office merely once every two weeks (voucher time!) in order to turn in whatever scripts I had concocted during those previous fourteen days. It was a rather solitary existence—just me and my typewriter, home alone, trying to extricate Lightning or NoMan or the Raven from whatever dire situation I had wrapped whichever hero within—and yet, I must admit, somehow I was having the time of my life!

Manny Stallman One of the best things about comic books is the people you meet. I’ve met hundreds of people who have written comics, drawn comics, lettered them, colored them, even (shudder) edited them. If I started to list the ones I didn’t like, I couldn’t fill out a square inch of this magazine, even in a very large font. We’re talking five, maybe six names…. I think I can explain why this is. Until recently, comics were not the kind of field of which a person said, “Hey, I think I’ll get into that line of work. It looks like an easy way to get rich.” Sane people still do not say such things. Comics were something you did because you loved the form, or the chance to output creativity at the brisk clip that the field required, and didn’t mind the long hours and shaky money. Creative people who are doing something they love are usually going to be nice people. In the ’70s, marvelling at how nice the people in comics were, some friends of mine and I started a silly, unofficial listing of “The Ten Nicest People in Comics.” The list was always verbal and approximate; at times, it had 12 or 15 names on it, most notably Joe Sinnott, Dan Spiegle, Marie Severin, Archie Goodwin, Pat Boyette and, of course, me. But the day I met Manny Stallman, I instantly thought, “We have a winner.” Manny Stallman was a kind soul with an angelic smile… and yet, there was something odd about Manny. I mean “odd” in a nice way, I think. As a comic book artist (and occasional writer), Manny was truly an individual. To the extent that there are “rules” for drawing comics, he seems not to have ever heard them, or felt they applied to him. He lived his life in much the same way. Just when I was sitting here, trying to think how to tell you about Manny Stallman, a superhero came to my rescue. His name is Gil Kane. (Okay, so maybe Gil isn’t quite a super-hero. But he’s sure drawn more of them than anyone else….) Gil just phoned to talk about Manny. We had a nice chat, which he was nice enough to permit me to tape and to excerpt here. Here’s Gil….

Above: Panel detail, “Return of the Mayven,” T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #10. Art by Manny Stallman.

Emmanuel Stallman was born on Jan. 15, 1927, in New York City, where he was also raised, living in various tenements and later, Seagate. It was art that kept Manny in high school, until the day he posed as a delivery boy and, carrying a tray of hot coffee, he bluffed his way into the offices of a comic book publisher. When they immediately hired him for erasing and clean-up, the young professional quit school. At 18, he was drafted into the U.S. Army, where he served in the Philippines working with an irreverent newspaper staff, who published the U.S. Congress’s end-of-war proclamation, much to the fury of General Douglas MacArthur (who threatened that the staff should face a firing squad). At 19, the returning vet entered the Brooklyn Art Institute and Art Students League, where Manny remained to work and study for 12 years. [The following essay refers to the artist’s comic-book highlights.] Manny is probably best known for his extensive run on the promotional comics monthly, Adventures of the Big Boy, of which he would sometimes delay delivery to his editors, who then would have no time to alter his progressive stories featuring minority and handicapped children. He also ran an advertising business in New York City, representing clients that included the American Natural History Museum. After moving to the West Coast, he taught a course on “Art of Comics and Cartoons” at the University of Southern California. In later life, Manny developed a growing audience for stand-up storytelling and, in fact, was excited to have just landed a new gig at the Los Gatos Jewish Community Center the night before Manny passed away on June 7, 1997. The artist left behind his brother, songwriter Louis Stallman; Jane L. Stallman (née Blake, Manny’s second wife, who contributed extensively to this biographical paragraph, said of her husband, “I count my blessings every day for Manny to have become a totally unexpected blessing in my life”); daughter Sharon Platt; and two grandchildren, Linda and Ryan. (His first wife, Ruth Sexter, and son, Andy, are deceased.) Jane recalls Manny telling her that, at age five, he had decided to dedicate life to causing at least one person to smile every day. “And I still smile every day just thinking of him.” [The following essay by Mark Evanier first appeared in The Comics Buyer’s Guide on July 25, 1997, and is reprinted here with his kind permission. ©2005 Mark Evanier.]

Right: Panel detail, “Merman,” Undersea Agent #5. Art by Manny Stallman.

“When I was 16, I got my first job. I worked in production for MLJ, which became Archie Comics. I got hired for $12 a week as a production man, doing borders and white-outs, but I wanted to pencil. Harry Shorten was the editor and he became irritated at me. He fired me, then he re-hired me, and after a while, they gave me penciling. When I finally got so much penciling that I could no longer do the production work, they hired someone else in my place, and that was Manny Stallman.” This is M.E. again. Historians peg Manny’s earliest published work as a strip called “Young Robin Hood” that was published by Lev Gleason in 1943, but it would not surprise me if other stories predated that one. He was like many a kid of that era who read comics, thought he could draw comics, and wandered about from office to office until he found someone whose standards were sufficiently low. That’s how everyone got into comics back then, including Gil Kane. He continues…. “Manny was my age. I was 17, or just short of 17, and he was always a very ambitious guy. He loved doing comics but what he really wanted to do, and what he eventually managed, was to get into advertising. Before that, he linked up with John Giunta and became Giunta’s partner. Giunta was a sickly but brilliant artist who, in effect, gave Dan Barry his style….“ (Evanier Aside: Giunta also gave a lot of artists their first job and/or big break, including some kid named Frazetta. Stallman and Giunta were close friends until the latter’s death. Years later, when DC was returning original art from their vaults, they had pages from Giunta’s last job, a Witching Hour tale, and nowhere to send them. Unable to locate any Giunta family members, they finally sent them to Manny, who was almost family, and Manny—being the nice guy he was—shared them with me. Back to Mr. Kane….) “Giunta and Stallman teamed up and did a lot of work together, much of it for Harvey. I used to see his work, the work Manny was doing, and it was becoming very, very competent.” Throughout the ’40s, he could often be found in Lev Gleason’s crime comics—on the original Daredevil, as well as in other books by Prize Comics and Holyoke. Sometimes, he worked with Giunta, sometimes alone. For a few years there, Manny was as an occasional assistant to Will Eisner on The Spirit—a credit he often cited with great pride. In the ’50s, he drew crime and horror stories for Atlas, Avon and Harvey, and drew Big Town for DC, along with occasional stories for Strange Adventures, All-American Men of War, Mystery in Space, Our Army at War, Phantom Stranger and romance titles. Back to you, Gil…. “Finally, Johnny Giunta and Manny made it over to DC, where they did Big Town. Manny did most of it and his work at first was really quite terrible. But they kept him on it, and something happened. During this time, he was working in advertising, or trying to work in advertising, and I think that had some impact on his comic work. His work became so much better. He really developed an individual approach. His layouts were exciting. His inking, when he inked himself, was very crude but it worked.”

Gil is, as always, right. In the ’60s, Manny did several short romance stories for DC that are arresting in how little they look like DC romance stories. At the time, the company was quite rigid about its page layouts. A six-panel page was comprised of six identical-sized square panels, and exceptions to this were few. But in Manny’s stories, panels were all different shapes— occasionally even rectangular—and zig-zagged all over the page. This is what I meant about not listening to the rules. If Curt Swan had tried this in Superman, or even Gil over on The Atom, they’d have been hauled out back to be flogged. For some reason, they allowed Manny Stallman to get away with it. (I’m not sure there’s ever been an editor who was sufficiently steel-hearted that he could bring himself to tell Manny his work was not right.) Says Gil of those stories… “There was a perception about it that just knocked me out. It was like a combination of Bob Oksner and Harvey Kurtzman— absolutely sensational stuff, with these beautiful figure groupings. He was the only guy there who was making an effort to just break out and be different. I myself had a very slow evolution—it was painful, it was laborious. I still question what it is that I really know with any authority. But Manny had a way of instantly grasping certain fundamentals. His work had a flavor that absolutely got me.” In the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents comics of the ’60s, he wrote and drew several stories of “The Raven” in a style so alien that readers had no idea what to make of it. He concurrently did some stories for Archie Goodwin at Creepy magazine, and the reaction was the same: “I didn’t like them at the time but now, as I look back at them, I think they’re terrific.” This is not only a quote from me, it’s a quote from everyone who recalls his work. Manny held the world’s indoor record for deferred recognition as a comic book artist. Nobody liked his work when they first saw it; darn near everyone did when they recalled it later. No, I take that back. There was one person who liked the work at the time — the guy who had to follow him on “The Raven” strip, Gil Kane…. “In the mid-’60s, Harry Shorten was putting together this comic line [for Tower Comics] and he brought in artists like Wally Wood and

For more than a decade, Manny Stallman was the writer-artisteditor of the comic book with the widest circulation of any comic in America. Each month, somewhere between two and three million copies of Adventures of the Big Boy were disseminated in hamburger emporiums across the land. (To give you something to gauge that against: At the time, a top-selling DC or Marvel might have been

selling 250,000 per issue. Today, 3,000,000 comic books is more than the entire British comic industry moves in a month.) Manny’s Big Boy stories were just like Manny: Sweet and utterly bizarre. They were drawn in an odd style which Gil describes thusly: “I was astounded when I saw what he was doing in those comics. He was working in what I can only describe as a childlike scrawl. I couldn’t believe it was the same artist.” It was. And if he hadn’t managed seven pages a day on those Raven stories, he sure did here. Manny drew most of them sitting in front of the TV, working with a small board on his lap. He drew them printed size, working in markers, batting out whole stories with one eye on a Dodgers game. The work was crude and, as Gil says, childlike and I have no idea what I think of it. Manny would send me the books and, when he asked me my opinion, I couldn’t bring myself to say anything negative. Manny was so polite, and Manny was so gentle, I usually wound up muttering “Nice work,” and hesitantly suggesting he spend a wee bit more time on his lettering. One time, the Big Boy executive office received a letter from some comic fan complaining about the art on the comic books. It was forwarded to Manny with a memo that said, “Attend to this,” as if a customer had complained about a bad waitress. The letter simply destroyed Manny. He phoned me in tears, wanting to know if I knew the fan (I didn’t) and theorizing that maybe some rival ad agency had sent it to try and get him fired so they could steal the account. Later, he told me it had so upset him that he hadn’t been able to draw for weeks, and had seriously considered retiring from comics. This was because of one letter. But even before that, I found myself wanting to like the work, because I liked Manny. A case can be made that it had a simplicity and spontaneity that is absent from more polished books, and he sometimes did something so wonderfully bizarre that you had to admire the freshness—like one in which Big Boy, confronted with some formidable problem, went out on a balcony, looked up at the heavens and prayed to God for guidance. This is a very odd thing for a

Left: Page from “Return of the Mayven,” T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #10. Art by Manny Stallman.

Mike Sekowsky and myself and Manny to do these T-Agents. And all of a sudden, Manny was penciling and inking like Harvey Kurtzman! I mean, I just couldn’t get over it. It was sensational stuff… what Kurtzman might have done if he’d done super-heroes, instantly grasping the essentials of the action. It had a quality of absolute ease that I would envy when I sweated over my pages. “Manny always tended to enlarge on things when you talked to him. He exaggerated. I asked him how long it was taking him to do that work and he said, ‘Oh, I do seven pages a day.’ I couldn’t believe that but, even if it wasn’t true, just the work itself was tremendous enough to be intimidating. At the same time, he showed me some of the advertising work he was doing at the time, which was done in a kind of cartoony style, and it was so professional, so assured, that I couldn’t get over it. “Manny was always into a million things. He rented a big office in mid-town Manhattan to do his advertising work out of. It never really worked for him, but he kept it up for a while by sub-leasing rooms to various artists and operations, and living off the rent they paid. The thing was, he knew all these different people, and he helped me to get into what I wanted to attempt at that time, which was self-publishing. He introduced me to printers and sales representatives, and it was through Manny that I met the people who ultimately allowed me to turn out His Name Is… Savage.” Then in the ’70s, Manny connected with an ad agency that packaged comic books for advertising purposes, and that became his career. He did several issues of Basky & Robin, a little comic booklet you could get free at your local Baskin-Robbins ice cream parlor, but mostly he did Big Boy.

Gil Kane, of course, gets the last word: “Manny had an incredible capacity, reaching a level at one point that was more than commendable. His work, when he was at his peak, was just first rate. When I heard he’d died, I had a tremendous sense of loss. He really was a remarkable man.”

Right: Splash panel detail, “Dynamo’s Day Off,” T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents Agent #5. Art by Chic Stone.

Chic Stone Charles “Chic” Eber Stone was born on January 4, 1923, in Manhattan, where he attended the School of Industrial Arts. At the tender age of 16, Chic began in comics by working (albeit in minimal fashion) for Will Eisner’s studio, moving on to Lloyd Jacquet’s outfit, and then, until the decline of comics in the mid-’50s, he freelanced for Fawcett, Marvel, Novelty, Gleason, Ace, Quality, and Charlton. After leaving the field to work in advertising and as a magazine art director, Chic returned to comics in the early ’60s for a memorable time as inker at Marvel Comics. (Chic is perhaps best known for his bold, faithful inks over Jack Kirby’s pencils on “The Mighty Thor,” The Avengers, and Fantastic Four.) As penciler and inker during his ’60s Marvel heyday, Chic also character who was toiled for ACG (rendering the advencreated to push burgers to be doing in a tures of Magicman and Nemesis) and, comic book, but Manny felt strongly about of course, Tower Comics. The artist worked in the industry well into the the scene and it was printed just the way he drew 1980s, then retired to Prattville, Alabama, where he passed away due it. No one could ever say no to Manny. to pancreatic cancer on July 28, 2000. The following brief interview The last five or so years, he was semi-retired, working intermitwas conducted just prior to Chic’s death. tently on a graphic novel that he hoped would be sold in religious Mike Gartland: Chic, do you recall why you left Marvel? bookstores. I don’t think he got very far into it before a stroke ended Chic Stone: Yes, because of Jim Shooter. his career as an artist. Mike: No, I meant Marvel in the ’60s; you went to Tower Comics. [Jane Stallman, Manny’s second wife, comments, “With all Were you looking for penciling rather than inking assignments? due respect to Mark, regarding his description of Manny doing any Chic: Oh, I’m not sure, but I think [Tower editor] Samm Schwartz ‘religious’ work, the Jewish Anti-Defamation League might be construed promised me the moon or something like that; but anyway that didn’t technically as such, but any implication is something else. My husband work out because I knew I wasn’t doing good work then. devoted much energy and passion to trying to address prejudice, first Mike: Harry Shorten was the publisher. Did you meet him then? becoming concerned when he saw so called ‘religious’ comics filled Chic: Yes. Shorten was trying to glean talent from the other with hatred toward Catholics, Baptists, and everyone not White Anglocompanies and he hired me by mistake. [laughs] Saxon, neo-fascists.”] Mike: How do you mean? Unable to draw, Manny redirected his creative energies to Chic: He wanted somebody else and I happened to walk in the something else—a stand-up comedy act, which he used to entertain office, but it never panned out because I just didn’t like the set-up. I patients at hospitals and nursing homes. I never had the chance to see was hacking out work at the time and don’t particularly like my work a performance, but I cherish hearing this 70+-year-old man, whose in those books. I know good work and I know hacking when I see it, speech was still slurred from illness, telling me on the phone excitedly and I was one of the world’s great hackers. [laughs] how he’d “killed” the day before. His rhetoric was identical to any beginning comedian who’d just scored big on The Tonight Show— and that, I found adorable. Salvatore A. Trapani was born on April 30, 1927, in Brooklyn, New This is getting sappy, I know, but I was saddened to hear that there will be no more cheery phone calls from my pal Manny Stallman. York. He attended the Cartoonists & Illustrators School in New York City, as well as the Jean Morgan School of Art and the Art Center His was not a well-known name to comic fans… but he had a long, School in Los Angeles. Among his professed influences were Alex full life, most of it spent doing work that was highly original and Raymond, Hal Foster, Burne Hogarth, and Al Giolitti. Between 1943-44 always sincere. Would that we had more like him.

Sal Trapani

Sal inked backgrounds on Batman, and in ’44 he worked for Cineffects, a technical animation company. In the ’50s, the artist worked for innumerable outfits, including Fiction House, Stanley, Gilberton, and Farrell. Sal kept one foot in animation from the ’50s into the early ’60s, contributing to Shamus Calhoun Studios, Ajax, Mennen, Rinso, and (perhaps the most notorious company of them all, the producer of Clutch Cargo) Cambria Studios, where the artist worked on Space Angel. A member of the National Cartoonists Society, he was also a prolific artist in ’60s comics, drawing for Charlton, Western, Dell, ACG, Tower, Warren, Archie, and DC. In the mid-’70s, Sal also inked for Marvel. He died on July 14, 1999. His brother-inlaw, legendary artist/editor Dick Giordano kindly contributed this essay on Sal. I met Sal when I had returned to have lunch with my old friends at Jerry Iger’s studio. Sal had replaced me when I left, at the beginning of 1951. During the discussion, I mentioned that I had my studio near where Sal lived, and he asked if I had space to rent, and so he started working at my studio. At first he came over on weekends, and then full-time after he also left Iger. Sal seemed always to have work to do, although I can’t remember who his clients were. He did draw a few issues for Classics Illustrated at some point, though I can’t recall if that was then or later… I think later. At one point, Sal asked if I would be an usher at his upcoming wedding. He was marrying a local woman (who I had gone to elementary school with). I accepted and my partner at the wedding was Sal’s sister, Marie. I married Marie some two years later.

When we were given an ultimatum to either work at Charlton’s offices in Derby, Connecticut, or lose the account, I had no choice but to accept. The industry was in one of its funks and I was about to be married. I recommended my future brother-in-law to editor Al Fago and Sal was invited to join us, which he did. At Charlton, we had all the work we wanted, albeit at very low rates. Sal did his assignments to earn money to hold things together, but it became clear that inking pages for Charlton wasn’t enough for him. So, in June of 1961, he moved his family to California to try his hand at animation, landing a job at Cambria Studios inking Space Angel (penciled by Alex Toth!). (Sal may have done work on Clutch Cargo, as well, considering those two features were the only things Cambria was producing.) Shortly after Space Angel was cancelled and Cambria closed its doors, Sal and family returned to Connecticut, and he developed two keen interests: First, in the UFO controversy prevalent at the time, and second, oldtime radio drama. He made contact with many of the old voice actors and radio writers, and was intent on staging a comeback of radio drama, converting his garage into a sound studio, having scripts written, and having voice actors and producers assemble a quantity of taped dramas that were shopped around and—for the most part— rejected due to lack of interest in stations trying to find an audience for radio drama. While pursuing these interests, Sal found comic work with Dell, ACG, DC, and later Gold Key/Western. When the comic book work started drying up and due to his lingering disappointment about not seeing his radio-drama dream come true, he became somewhat listless, though Sal did attempt to write and draw a comic strip intended for syndication, a project he was working on at the time of his death.

George Tuska

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Left: Page from “To Be or Not To Be,” T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #7. Art by John Giunta & Sal Trapani.

George Tuska was born on February 26, 1916, in Hartford, Connecticut. He attended the National Academy of Design, and saw his first work (“Spike Merlin”) published by Holyoke in 1939. George worked at the Eisner-Iger shop between ’39 and ’40, then joining Harry Chesler’s outfit between 1940-41. Few artists have contributed to so many publishers (including Fiction House, Quality, Chesler, Street & Smith, Fox, Pines, Harvey, St. John, and Ziff-Davis), but George made his first substantial mark in the industry with a memorable string of crime comics published by Lev Gleason, where his dynamic and endearing portrayal of gangsters earned him the distinction, “artist’s artist.” George switched over to syndicated strips during the comic book “troubles” of the ’50s, as writer/artist on Scorchy Smith (’54-’59) and artist on Buck Rogers (’59-’67). In the late ’60s, the artist joined the Marvel Bullpen for an extended stay, where he drew just about every major character for the House of Ideas, perhaps most notably Iron Man during a 10-year stretch. Currently, the artist—called in his day “the handsomest man in comics”— lives in New Jersey with wife Dorothy, tending to requests for fan commissions and sometimes making an appearance at comic conventions. This interview took place at the Tuska home in May ’01.

Right: Pencil art by George Tuska.

Mike: Favorite characters? You drew a few “T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Squad” stories, did you enjoy the strip? Was Weed based on Woody? George: Didn’t really have a favorite character, they did remind me of The X-Men though. If Weed was based on Wally Wood, you’d have to ask the writer, as I really don’t know. Mike: Do you recall what your page rate was? How did it compare to Marvel and DC at the time? George: I think it was something like $20 a page, Marvel was less; I didn’t work for DC at that time so I don’t know what their rate was; probably higher. Mike: What did you think of the Tower material? George: Same as the Marvel stuff, super-hero stuff, you know. The Tower stuff had a James Bond kind of touch to it, though. Mike: Do you think the Tower comics were developed to capitalize on Marvel’s success? As far as you recall, was the Batman craze in full-swing when the books were coming out? George: At that time I really wasn’t fully into Marvel; that didn’t happen until the Buck Rogers strip was over. I remember when Batman was very popular, but I was just freelancing, doing pick-up work for places like Marvel and Tower at that time. It didn’t occur to me that the TV show had any effect on all of comics. Some said it was bad for comics. Mike: You’re renowned especially for your ’40s crime stories for Mike Gartland: How did you get the Tower gig, George? Crime Does Not Pay. Did you wish genres other than super-heroes were George Tuska: I was freelancing work at that time while popular during the ’60s and ’70s? working on the syndicated Buck Rogers strip, I really don’t remember George: I liked the action in super-hero books, but preferred doing who told me about it. the Crime Does Not Pay material. The stories were more thrilling to me Mike: Did you deal with editor Samm Schwartz at all? because they seemed more based on real life. I would’ve like to have George: His name rings a bell, but I don’t believe I ever met him. seen the Crime stories make it to the ’60s and ’70s, but those Mike: Do you know anything about the Tower Publishing background Kefauver hearings put an end to them in the ’50s, shame really. and why it decided to get into comics? Do you remember the types of Mike: Did you consider Wally Wood a tragic figure? paperbacks the company produced? Did you know of Harry Shorten? George: Tragic figure? I think that he felt he had to take his own Any anecdotes? life was a tragedy; he was a very talented man. George: I guess Tower was just jumping on the super-hero bandMike: Did you socialize with other comic book artists in the 1960s? wagon, along with the other publishing houses that devoted some of Where did you live in the ’60s and what was your family situation? their space to super-heroes at that same time. Harry Shorten I don’t George: Since I was freelancing, I didn’t really see many artists; know of, sorry. sometimes I’d run into someone at the office if I was bringing in or Mike: Did you visit Wally Wood’s studio with any frequency? taking out work. I lived on Long Island (in Hicksville) at the time with George: Believe it or not, I never knew Wally Wood nor visited my wife, two daughters, and son. I liked to golf and still do as often him. I knew Bob Wood when I worked at Lev Gleason, but I don’t as I can. I did golf with Stan Lee on several occasions. think they were related. Mike: What‘s the story behind your brief Marvel foray—drawing Mike: Who wrote the stories you drew? Did you write any stories? “Captain America,” for one—in the mid-’60s? Why didn’t you stay Were the scripts Marvel-style or fully written? longer? George: I don’t recall who wrote the stories, I may have George: The Buck Rogers strip was very time-consuming, and contributed some stuff, but without having the books to refer to, I you always had to be on top of it; it’s like that with many syndicated couldn’t tell you. I think the stories were full scripts; I only remember strips. You also had to get and pay for the letterer and inker. Also, working Marvel-method at Marvel. I liked Marvel method because it Marvel’s rates for a penciled and inked page didn’t give you enough allowed you more of a free reign to move the plot your own way. I’m incentive to stay, although I did prefer doing comic book stories to the really sorry, but without the books I couldn’t recall any anecdotes of syndicated stuff. interest; at the time it was just fill-in work, you understand. Mike: When and why did you return to Marvel? 101

“Let us consider just what an educated man knows of the past. First of all he has the realest of all knowledge—the knowledge of his own personal experiences, his memory. Uneducated people believe their memories absolutely, and most educated people believe them with a few reservations. Some of us take up a critical attitude even toward our own memories; we know that they not only sometimes drop things out, but that sometimes a sort of dreaming or a strong suggestion will put things in. But for all that, memory remains vivid and real as no other knowledge can be, and to have seen and heard and felt is to be nearest to absolute conviction.”—Herbert George Wells, Discovery of the Future

Left: Splash panel, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #15. Art by George Tuska.

This particular story is almost autobiographic, as many of the places, people, and events have been gleaned from personal memory. Forgive me, if I seem to ramble on just a bit. While attempting to sort several decades of nostalgic memories into words, it is disquieting to realize how quickly the years have flashed by. It seems like it was only yesterday, when, at the age of 12, I first discovered an artist named Ogden Whitney. To be more specific, the year was 1965. As it is with most discoveries, it came quite by accident. It was in the Spring and I was bed-ridden, suffering from a bout with the flu. As an act of love (or possibly to quiet my sniveling), my father brought me a couple new

Ogden Whitney Outside of the fact that, according to Who’s Who of American Comic Books, Ogden Whitney was born in 1918, little biographical information appears to be known about the legendary artist. The following essay by Ron Frantz, which first appeared in The Return of Skyman #1 [Sept. ’87] (published by Ron’s imprint, Ace Comics), is less about Ogden’s life and more on the journey of a fan looking for the man behind the art. The article was originally titled “Searching for Ogden Whitney,” and appears here courtesy of Ron (who also made some revisions). ©2005 Ron Frantz. 102

Bottom left: Plate detail from SQP’s The T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents Series Set One. Art by George Tuska.

George: The Buck Rogers strip finally was ended and Stan was always asking me to come back, so around 1967 I started doing some inking, then some fill-in stories, then Iron Man. Mike: When did you start working again for DC Comics? Did you primarily work for [DC editor] Murray Boltinoff? George: I got into DC through Carmine Infantino; one day Sol Brodsky told me that they didn’t have any work for me; so I took some of my Marvel samples to Carmine and he said “This is what we’re looking for.” So what happens? He puts me on romance stories! Ugh! [laughs] Later on I ran into Stan who asked why wasn’t I working for him anymore. So I go up to his office and explain that I was told I wasn’t needed around here; and John Verpoorten, who was sitting next to me in Stan’s office said “He’s right, Stan.” [laughs] So I was back at Marvel again. I worked with Carmine and Joe Orlando at DC, although I did know Boltinoff, also. He lived a short distance from me in Long Island and sometimes I would bring my work to his house rather than go into the city. Mike: Any memories of other Tower contributors? George: I remember Sekowsky from the Eisner-Iger days, but didn’t see him anymore after that. Reed Crandall was there, too, and I used to watch him draw along with Lou Fine; they were very good. Others like Esposito, Stone, and Adkins I know from their inking stories I drew the others I know only from conventions, while some I’ve never met. T-Agents work: T-Agents #1, 7, 8, 10, 13-17, 19; Dynamo #2, 3.

Right: Splash panel, NoMan #1. Art by Ogden Whitney.

comics, to help ease the misery. One of the two was a sparkling new Marvel comic, an issue of The Avengers. This provided considerable delight as Marvel comics were the dearest thing to my heart. As far as Marvel was concerned, the hours dripped splendor and all things glistened. I absolutely adored them. The other comic was a peculiar title, #157 of Adventures into the Unknown. It was published by the now defunct American Comics Group (ACG). At first glance, I was completely disinterested. While simultaneously holding my nose and stifling an urge to wretch, I tossed the magazine aside to one side. Actually, I was a little peeved at Dad for bringing home a comic book that wasn’t published by Marvel. For some reason, he never could tell the difference between Marvel and all of those Brand Echh titles. I was so addicted to Marvel that reading anything else was like eating cabbage when your mouth is watering for pepperoni pizza. An hour or two later, I grew a bit less persnickety. All the joy of reading The Avengers had faded and boredom began to set in. So, with some reluctance, I decided to give the issue of Adventures into the Unknown a second look. By some great miracle, it didn’t seem quite as miserable as before. At least the cover was eye-catching, featuring a super-hero named Nemesis. For anyone who might be interested in such mundane matters, the cover was drawn by Kurt Schaffenberger, who mysteriously signed the work “Jay Kafka.” While looking at the credits on the first page of the story, I noticed it had been drawn by Chic Stone. It was a name that any conscientious, card-carrying member of the Merry Marvel Marching Society would instantly recognize. Since Stone worked for Marvel, I figured the comic couldn’t be too bad. It sort of makes one wonder how a 12-year-old kid could be so snobbish. Well, to make a long story short… I read the comic from cover to cover, enjoying it considerably. So much in fact, that I soon became a collector of ACG comics. A short time later, I discovered two more ACG titles down at the neighborhood drug store where I spent many an afternoon loitering around the comic book rack… much to the chagrin of the druggist, I might add. Twenty years later, that particular druggist was still giving me dirty looks every time I wandered into his establishment. I must have been a real pest in those days. Rod McKuen once said with remarkable perspicacity that the mind is a junk yard. Based on personal experience, I am inclined to agree. For some unfathomable reason I remember buying Forbidden Worlds #128 and Herbie #10. The issue of Forbidden Worlds was okay, but I didn’t get too excited about it. The Magicman story by Pete Costanza had a charming quality, but I didn’t appreciate it much at the time. However, that issue of Herbie soon had my heart pounding. Wow! What a comic book! It was like nothing I had ever seen before.

I was enthralled with everything about it: The character, the story, and especially… the art! Of course, the artist was Ogden Whitney. In no time at all, Whitney became my favorite comic book artist, a sorry state of mind that has endured to this very day. At the time, I had no way of knowing that Whitney was nearing the end of a prolific career that began in the late 1930s. All I knew was that Whitney was very special. Finding all the back issues of Herbie became an obsession. I can still recall my delight when I finally completed the run in 1971. The next couple of years came and went all too swiftly. I never missed an issue of Herbie. Being of limited means, that 50¢ of weekly allowance only stretched so far. There were times when I was forced to choose between the new issue of Herbie or the latest Amazing SpiderMan, a situation which might have sorely pained Stan Lee. Sadly, all good things must come to an end. It broke my heart when Herbie was discontinued in 1967, after publication of the 23rd issue. It was like witnessing the death of an old friend. A short time later, ACG went out of business. In the years that followed, Herbie became something of a cult favorite among some comic book collectors. It has been a frequent subject of commentary. Curiously, many of the collectors who admired Whitney’s work on Herbie were unaware that Whitney had drawn an equally fine feature called “Skyman,” which enjoyed a lengthy run in Big Shot Comics during the 1940s. It was obvious that Whitney had great sentiment for Skyman as he “snuck in” two Skyman sketches into a Herbie story. Of course, that sort of thing is usually frowned upon by publishers. In the early ’60s, Glen Johnson and a few other fans were fortunate enough to briefly correspond with Whitney. Some of these fans wrote letters to ACG editor Richard Hughes, requesting that they revive Skyman. It

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would seem that Hughes had no interest in the character, preferring to keep Whitney busy on Herbie. For posterity, the following is a letter written by Whitney to Glen Johnson, dated December 1, 1963: Dear Glen: Thank you for writing and your interest in Skyman. I’m sorry for the delay in answering you. Now, I’ll take your questions in the order in which they were asked. 1. My early art was never inked by anyone else. 2. I was inducted into the army in January of ’43. I don’t recall which was my last Skyman before going in. If you have the books handy, which I don’t, perhaps you can figure it out on this basis, remembering that the strip is completed four to five months prior to publication. 3. I didn’t do any of the strips while on furlough. If you had ever been in the service you’d know why. However, I did some after hours in the orientation office where I served as artists in Camp Lee, Virginia. This, after completing eight weeks of truck-driving school. That’s the army! 4. I have no idea as to the whereabouts of Mart Bailey. 5. The idea [for Skyman] I believe was dreamed up by Vince Sullivan, who has since left the publishing field. 6. I did write some of the Skyman stories. The start I believe was the trip to the moon, Hitler, etc. The last few stories were written by Charlie Winter at my request. I also wrote some for a Skyman one-shot. Gave it up. I’m no writer! 7. I’m not sure what you mean by the old Columbia line. You must mean the publishers of Big Shot Comics. Was that their name? No connection with ACG. 8. No, I didn’t work for any other comics before joining DC. I did do some illustrations for pulp magazines which are now extinct, before going into comics books. 9. The only other strip I did for DC besides “Sandman” was my very first strip in the comics field; I recall it with great reverence. It was “Cotton Carver.” That seems to wind up your questions, so I will volun-

Following the demise of ACG, Whitney’s art appeared sporadically at Tower Comics, drawing the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents character, NoMan. It wasn’t long before Tower, too, faded away. Whitney then moved on to Marvel. While at Marvel, Whitney drew several delightful issues of Two-Gun Kid, a cover or two of Millie the Model, and a curious collaboration with Jack Kirby on a “Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.” story in Strange Tales #149 [Oct. ’66]. I get a chuckle every time I see that story. With the Whitney touch, Nick Fury looked a lot like Herbie’s dad wearing an eye patch. Then, sort of quietly, Ogden Whitney disappeared. No new work appeared anywhere. I wondered if Whitney had retired, passed away, or what? It was a curiosity that bothered me. About 1974, I was fortunate enough to acquire an original Whitney page from “NoMan.” It was the only Whitney original I had ever seen and I was pleased to have it. A few years later (in a weak moment), I gave the page to Alex Toth as a gift. In all fairness, I should mention that Toth had been especially generous in showering gifts of original art and other goodies upon me. Since Toth adored Whitney, I was pleased to be able to reciprocate in this small way. About this same time, I became interested in the historical aspects of comic books and began to make a few personal acquaintances among various artists and writers. Naturally, I was very interested in tracking down Ogden Whitney, and asked about him every chance I got. 104

Left: Panel from “Starflight to the Assassin Planet,” T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #15. Art by Ogden Whitney.

teer anything that I think may be of help to you. I did a strip called “Rocky Ryan” for Vince Sullivan, sort of a Cotton Carver-type hero. Always getting clobbered but emerging unscathed! Skyman passed out sort of quietly. Wasn’t selling like it used to. I remember the last strip. The last panel I believe showed him watching some bills gradually disappearing into a lake. Sort of prophetic. All in all, I enjoyed doing Skyman and at one point tried to interest some people to revive it, but to no avail. Right now, I’m working on a complete comic book called Herbie. We have great hopes for it and I hope you and your friends enjoy it. Thanks again for your kind words. Sorry again for the delay, but as I said, I’m no writer. Sincerely, Ogden Whitney

Right: Splash page detail from “Dynamo Vs. NoMan,” NoMan #1. Art by Ogden Whitney.

It seemed logical to begin the search at the last publishing house where Whitney had worked, Marvel. I wrote several letters to Marvel asking about Whitney, but they never bothered to reply. Suitably ignored, I felt Marvel’s sense of public relations left much to be desired. However, I accepted the matter as a fact of life and moved on. A few months later, I was fortunate enough to meet Archie Goodwin at a Tulsa convention. Goodwin had recently become an editor at Marvel. In passing conversation, I asked Goodwin if he knew anything about Whitney. He didn’t, but Goodwin was gracious enough to offer to check Marvel’s personnel files when he returned to New York. A few weeks later, I received a nice reply from Goodwin who, unfortunately, came up empty-handed. There was no information on Whitney to be had at Marvel. Over the next few years, I met several comic book artists at various conventions: Al Williamson, George Evans, Alex Toth, and Jack Kirby. Each time, I inquired if they had ever met Whitney or knew anything about his current whereabouts. Each time, the answer was the same. They were all familiar with Whitney’s work, but knew nothing about him personally. It was as if Ogden Whitney had vanished from the face of the Earth. I had an interesting visit with Jack Kirby about 1977, at a summer Dallas convention. For Kirby (and just about everyone else), the convention was a bomb. Two different fan factions in Dallas had been squabbling and staged conventions the same weekend out of pure spite. Both conventions suffered from poor attendance and ended up losing their shirts. With hardly anyone there, Kirby wandered around aimlessly in the hotel lobby, bored to tears. Taking advantage of the opportunity, I walked up to Kirby and introduced myself. Since we were both cigar smokers, we sat down and smoked a cigar together. While we were chatting about different things, I asked Kirby if he knew anything about Whitney. Kirby said that he vaguely remembered Whitney from the Golden Age and couldn’t offer any pertinent information. Not long afterwards, I met Don Newton at Wintercon ’78, held in Oklahoma City.

In my mind, Newton was one of the most friendly and gracious comics professionals that it has been my pleasure to meet. I remember watching him sit at a table in the dealers room for hours at a stretch, talking with fans and drawing complimentary sketches of favorite characters. Later, I had a chance to visit with Newton over a cup of coffee. During the conversation, I asked about Whitney. As it turned out, Newton was a big Whitney fan, but knew nothing about him personally. However, Newton was a friend of Wally Wood, who had been Whitney’s editor at Tower Comics. Newton suggested that I write to Wood and was kind enough to provide his mailing address. So, without hesitation, I fired off a letter to Wood, anxiously awaiting a reply. Wood had been a favorite of mine for years and I looked forward to establishing contact with him. A few months went by, and I heard nothing. So, I wrote to Wood again. Finally, on July 29, 1979, I received the following reply: “Sorry I don’t know a thing about Ogden Whitney’s whereabouts. I did work with him on the Tower (Thunder Agents) stuff, but I never met him. I think we had a couple of brief conversations on the telephone, but that was it.” Once again, I had hit a dead end. By this time I was really getting discouraged about the entire business, feeling as if I were chasing a shadow. However, I did enjoy corresponding briefly with Wood. I spoke with Wood several times, trying to persuade him to come to Oklahoma City for a convention. My only regret was not being able to establish much of a friendship with Wood. For the most part, he was polite and friendly, but Wood seemed somewhat withdrawn. It was obvious that he wanted to maintain his privacy, so I respected his wishes. As a matter of complete irony, I missed meeting Wood in New York City in 1979. I was there on business, attending a tobacco industry trade show.

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Just prior to writing to DeFuccio, I began corresponding with Pete Morisi. I met Morisi through Alex Toth, who attended high school with Morisi in the ’40s. Early in our correspondence, I asked Morisi about Whitney, who subsequently responded: “Sorry I can’t help you with Ogden Whitney. I never met the guy, and I don’t know where he is, although he has been a favorite of mine for years. As a kid, I used to marvel at his work and I knew (even then) that he was something special. Whitney did the ‘Sandman’ and a great Flash Gordontype strip called ‘Cotton Carver’ for DC in the early 1940s. His girls were always great. They were soft, loveable, real. He was quite a talent.” Morisi’s reply was very interesting to me. It seemed fascinating how Morisi, Toth, Williamson, and Don Newton had all been fans of Whitney. I guess there is no greater tribute for an artist than to have influenced the work of others. After writing to Jerry DeFuccio, I received the following reply, dated Feb. 13, 1980:

“Thanks for the note. Yes, it’s been a quite busy summer and I am settled in now for some serious work. Have looked everywhere for Ogden Whitney’s address, but I can’t locate it. I suggest you write to Jerry DeFuccio at Mad magazine (tell him I sent you) and ask him for it. If you have no luck there, I guess I’ll have to be more relentless. Keep in touch. Till then, stay well.” 106

I had contacted Ogden Whitney about 15 years ago. He lived on 40 Park Avenue South at the time. I engaged him to do a Skyman original for $50; a single figure descending on the familiar ‘sky-hook,’ with the Wing plane aloft. Naturally, I gushed about Whitney’s Golden-Age work when I visited his apartment. His wife, Anne, was quite lovely and refined but Whitney wasn’t anything like the svelte characters he used to draw. Fat and obviously addicted to liquor. The drawing I ordered was poorly done, with two false stats cuts into the illustration Strathmore. It looked like three Skymen were on the same line. I paid Whitney and hid my disappointment because Anne seemed troubled by her husband’s state. She supported the family with her private secretary job in the area of the Empire State Building. Richard E. Hughes, editor at American Comics Group was especially helpful to ‘old-timers,’ as he was one himself. ACG was virtually a last port of call for fading comic book artists. Hughes gave Whitney work, though Ogden seemed absorbed in trying storyboard continuity samples to crack the advertising field. I saw him working on the special pads imprinted with rows of blank TV screens. He couldn’t qualify. A coolness developed between us as he no longer

One afternoon, I snuck away from business long enough to visit Jerry DeFuccio, who was then an associate editor at Mad magazine. I had entered the building on Madison Avenue where Mad’s office was located, waiting for an elevator. When the door opened, a man stepped out of the car and tripped. I held the door open while the man picked up a large artist portfolio off the floor. The man was short, with a sickly-looking yellowish complexion. To be frank, he looked like death warmed over. After picking up his portfolio, he said “Thank you,” then hurried along on his way. A few minutes later when I arrived at DeFuccio’s office, the first thing he said was: “It’s a shame you didn’t get here five minutes earlier. You just missed Wally Wood.” I could have kicked myself as I realized the man at the elevator had been Wood. I guess some things are just not meant to be. Shortly following his death by suicide in 1981, columnist cat yronwode commented about Wood’s physical condition leading up to the end: “It was no secret that Wood was not a healthy man these past few years. Just seeing him at a convention was enough to break anybody’s heart. He was suffering from diabetes and kidney failure. Drinking didn’t help, either. The cruelest part of it was that his eyesight began to go, as it often does it cases of renal failure. He looked pretty bad, he was in constant pain. It didn’t take any psychic talent to see that his hold on life was very fragile.” A few months earlier, I got my first real lead about Whitney through Jim Steranko, who I met at a summer Tulsa convention. It was an interesting experience. I spent an afternoon with Steranko, driving around Tulsa visiting used book stores. I was fascinated to learn that Steranko had personally met Whitney. However, he didn’t divulge much in the way of useful information. I think Steranko knew more than what he was telling, but I figured he was probably saving the story for a book of his own. Steranko said that it had been a few years since he had seen Whitney, but he seemed certain that he had an address for Whitney at home. Steranko suggested I write to him after the convention, which I did. A short time later, Steranko responded with the following message:

reflected my idol of prep school days. Incidentally, Fred Guardineer, who worked with Ogden at DC and Columbia Comics Group, and somehow wound up with Whitney in the same outfit, in the Philippines during World War Two, is a very fine person and a true friend. I passed Whitney’s apartment house about seven years ago and asked the doorman: ‘Does Ogden Whitney still live here?’ The doorman spoke in a hush, ‘No! His wife died and his condition became extremely irrational. He was finally evicted… carried bodily… from his apartment. The place was full of empty [booze] bottles and dirty as a cage!’ I hate to perpetrate this horrible and disillusioning story, Ron, but I can’t believe that you’ll find a lucid, cogent, or articulate Ogden Whitney… anywhere.” I guess it goes without saying that DeFuccio’s letter was a great personal disappointment. Five years of searching came to an end. It was a saddening experience and I decided not to pursue the matter any further. I did, however, receive a second letter from Pete Morisi a short time later in reference to Whitney:

Right: Panel detail from “Starflight to the Assassin Planet,” T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #15. Art by Ogden Whitney.

“I just paid a visit to a book illustrator friend of mine on Long Island. In addition to the wife and myself, he had Creig Flessel as a guest. Creig is an old-time comic book and newspaper strip artist who worked with Whitney at DC and Columbia during the 1940s. So I asked him about Whitney and he said: “I think Whitney is in a nursing home now. I think it was the result of booze and a nervous breakdown.” About 1980, Don Newton was instrumental in helping me locate Gordon “Boody” Rogers, who worked at Columbia Comics in the 1940s, drawing “Sparky Watts” for Big Shot Comics. Although he was then in his late 70s, Rogers had a great memory. In a telephone conversation, Rogers remembered meeting Whitney, probably at Columbia. He described Whitney as distant and not very friendly. However, Rogers spoke well of Columbia editor, Vincent Sullivan. I found my interest in Whitney renewed in 1986-87, while I was publishing the black-&-white line of ACE Comics. Through Jerry DeFuccio, I was able to contact Vincent Sullivan and purchased publishing rights to the old Columbia comics characters, Skyman and The Face. Considering that Whitney had worked with Sullivan at Columbia and ME, I hoped he would be able to provide some background information on Whitney. Once again, there wasn’t much to be had. I had several lengthy phone chats with Sullivan. He was quite charming and personable, but Sullivan didn’t seem comfortable talking about Whitney. My guess is that there had been some kind of a falling out between them somewhere along the line. I got the impression that Sullivan didn’t care much for Whitney, but he was too much of a gentleman to say anything unpleasant.

About this same time, I enjoyed several pleasant telephone conversations with the widow of Richard Hughes, Annabel. According to Mrs. Hughes, Whitney and his wife frequently socialized with the Hughes. She confirmed that Whitney had a drinking problem for many years, but somehow managed to function professionally in spite of it. She confirmed that Whitney was deceased, having read his obituary in the New York papers sometime during the early 1970s. Sadly, alcohol has been a problem for many cartoonists, ultimately resulted in the deaths of several, including Wally Wood, Reed Crandall, and Dan Gordon. Pat Boyette (who was sober as a judge) once told me: “There are more cartoonists who have a drinking problem than you can imagine. It is one of the hazards of the profession. Being a cartoonist is not the glamorous job that most fans believe. Drawing pictures for a living is a tough, lonely job. The pressure to meet deadlines can be unbelievable and it sometimes requires working eighteen or twenty hours at a stretch to get the job done. Many cartoonists drink as a means of escape, which usually only compounds the problem in the end.” Upon reflection, I never regretted the years spent trying to find Ogden Whitney. Of course, I had hoped to discover Ogden living somewhere in comfortable retirement, happy, and possibly still drawing. It was not meant to be. The truth sometimes hurts, but I think it’s better than not knowing at all. Knowing the truth about Ogden Whitney had never diminished my admiration for his work. It remains as a tribute to his skills, which have been exonerated under the toughest of circumstances. Ogden Whitney was one of the finest creative talents that the comics industry as ever produced and nothing can ever change that fact. My only hope is that somehow, Ogden Whitney found happiness. Every now and then, I chance across someone who had some contact with Whitney. The last time came in Feb. 2000. Steve Skeates, who wrote some of Whitney’s “NoMan” stories at Tower in the ’60s, was nice enough to respond with the following comment:

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Can’t be of much help, I’m afraid! I saw Ogden Whitney but never actually met him. This one time while delivering a couple of scripts to Tower, I passed a well-dressed man (dapper is the more the word—as I recall, not just wearing a suit, but a vest as well) carrying one of those outsized portfolios, coming out of Samm Schwartz’s office

as I was going on. Once inside, I asked Samm who that had been, I found out it was Whitney, and said, “Rats, I would liked to have met him!”(Hey, for but one thing: When I was a kid, my favorite company of ACG!) and figured, “Oh well, maybe the next time our paths cross….” But somehow that next time simply never materialized.

Al Williamson Al Williamson was born in New York on March 21, 1931, though he spent much of his childhood and adolescence living in Bogota, Columbia. It was in South America where Al was first exposed to the artist who would become his greatest influence, Alex Raymond, through the great science-fiction newspaper strip, Flash Gordon. In the late ’40s, Al moved to New York City and attended Burne Hogarth’s lauded Cartoonists & Illustrators School (where he met lifelong friends Roy Krenkel and Frank Frazetta, among others) and by 1948, Al saw his first professional sale to the American comic book industry. Most notably during those years, the artist became a regular contributor to the entire EC Comics line, where he excelled at science-fiction work. After the demise of EC, Al found work with Atlas/Marvel, particularly on Western stories, most often those written by editor Stan Lee. In 1964, Al made a significant impact in the pages of the Archie Goodwin-edited Warren titles, Creepy and Eerie, and it was during this time when he contributed a single cover to the Tower Comics of his friend Wallace Wood. Since his Warren heyday, the artist’s work has most frequently been found in the newspaper comic pages, with 20 years on Secret Agent Corrigan, as well as an unforgettable stints on the Star Wars and Rip Kirby syndicated strips (the latter an Alex Raymond creation). Another memorable ’60s tenure was as artist on King Comics’ superb (if shortlived) Flash Gordon comic book, the character who started it all for Al. In recent years, Al has found work as an inker for Marvel. One of the most outstanding illustrators ever to grace the field, Al commands the attention and devotion of a legion of exceptionally faithful fans, and he calls many of the field’s premier pros his friends. Today in his 70s, Al remains ever-youthful, enthusiastic and vigorous, inspiring through his charm and charisma (not to mention unbelievable talent) new fans and friends to do greater work. T-Agents work: ART: T-Agents #10, NoMan #1.

Perhaps the most neglected stars of Tower’s super-hero comic-book line are those diverse hands who toiled anonymously as assistants in the studio of the great Wallace Wood. During the Tower Comics years, an impressive roster of talents came and went… helping with layouts, penciling pages, drawing backgrounds, inking, filling in blacks, scrounging through the swipe files… the legendary artist always had an assignment due, and doubtless a multitude of deadlines were met courtesy of the often remarkable efforts of Wood’s workers. But, alas, even in these celebratory pages, proper recognition for at least five of Woody’s assistants during this era is regrettably absent. Any excuse—whether lack of any hard biographical data or shortage of space—is bound to be inadequate, so in an effort to give the least degree of recognition,allow us to list the names of important (if unsung) contributors to the T-Agents’ saga: RICHARD BASSFORD • ROGER BRAND TIM BATTERSBY-BRENT TONY COLEMAN • RALPH REESE

Below: Cover detail, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #10, Art by Al Williamson & Wallace Wood.

And so, my humble quest continues on like an endless wave of perpetual motion. Since one never knows what the future may bring, I still hope to meet someone who knew Whitney well, who can fill in some of the missing pieces of the puzzle. I figure there has to be someone out there who knows the story… and can tell it true. If you happen to know of such a person, I would love to hear from you. T-Agents work: T-Agents #10, 13, 15, 17, 18; NoMan #1, 2.

REAL HEROES OF T.H.U.N.D.E.R.

1981-84: The JC Comics Years The first T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents revival came in the form of JCP Features #1, a one-shot black-&-white magazine that appeared in 1981, almost a dozen years after the end of the characters’ initial run at Tower. In 1983, after a couple of false starts, and finally with the strength of mainstream comics publisher Archie Comics behind him, John Carbonaro launched the (albeit short-lived) color line, JC Comics, which added two issues of new material and three reprint Hall of Fame editions to the T-Agents legacy. After those titles were cancelled, Red Ribbon Comics, an Archie Comics super-hero anthology in search of fill-in material, devoted one issue to left-over JC Comics inventory in 1984.

Right: Cover art for Comic Collector magazine, circa early 1980s. Art by Lou Manna (pencils) & Will Blyberg (inks).

Will Blyberg William Blyberg was born on Nov. 18, 1952. A self-taught artist, Will is perhaps best known as the inker over Brent Anderson’s pencils on Kurt Busiek’s Astro City comics. [The editor apologizes for not acquiring more biographical data by presstime.] The following interview was conducted via phone on June 12, 2005. Jon B. Cooke: Were you familiar at all with T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents at that time? Will Blyberg: No, I wasn’t. I didn’t really see them until the early ’70s, at a convention in Boston. Jon: Were you clued in early to Wally Wood’s style? Will: Not early on, but I got into him when he started doing “Doctor Doom” in Astonishing Tales. Jon: When did you first consider becoming a comic book artist? Will: Gee, I don’t know. I was just doing fanzine stuff, and then started to get some offers for work, and I didn’t really think it was going to be a serious pursuit until the early ’80s. Jon: What fanzines were you working for? Will: I can’t remember the names of the fanzines. There was a book called Wowie Kazowie, put together by Dean Mullaney and a bunch of guys. We were all doing it together. Jon: Did you do comics strips and stories for the fanzines? Will: Yes, although they were pretty miserable. Jon: What were some of the more memorable ones? Will: I did “Victory,” a super-hero strip. It started out underwater— I always liked the underwater stuff—and there was an outer space sequence, too, and it was mostly just a chance to draw backgrounds and other things I would find interesting. Jon: I assume Wally Wood did become an influence on you, right? Will: Oh, sure! Jon: When did that begin to emerge? Will: Well, I guess when I was just starting to do artwork: the mid-’70s, something like that. As soon as I started inking, I said, “Well, this is the guy to work for. Wood is the best guy in the business.” Jon: What was specifically appealing about his work? Will: I always liked the way he worked with light: the shadows and all that stuff, and the double lighting on the faces. I just liked his approach. Jon: You inked with a brush? Will: Yes. Jon: Was it difficult to learn that? 109

disappointing to me. It really doesn’t live up to the EC work, though it’s interesting to look at. Jon: Once you were exposed to T-Agents, were you impressed? Will: Oh, yes. I loved it. I couldn’t believe it when I first saw it. I had mainly been into the Marvel stuff; all of a sudden, I saw the whole run all at once, and it was overwhelming. Jon: What did you like about it? Will: Well, I liked the idea that you could get the whole thing, the entire run of books. [laughter] And they were giants, remember? And all these great artists! It was a wonderful series. Reed Crandall, and even the Gil Kane stuff in there, though it was his second-level work, it was good stuff. A lot of good Ditko. It was great work. I always loved it. Jon: How did you become involved with John Carbonaro? Will: I don’t know. I guess he called me, and I think somebody might have recommended me; maybe Marty Griem recommended me. Jon: You did work for [Griem’s fanzine] Comic Crusader? Will: I inked a couple of Thunder Bunny covers, which was Marty’s character, and we just had fan interactions. He knew I was a big Wood fan, so I think that might have been it. Jon: So John Carbonaro called you up, and what transpired? Will: He sent me the penciled pages by Lou Manna. Jon: Was this prior to Archie/Red Circle publishing T-Agents? Will: There were two issues that Carbonaro came out with, before Blue Ribbon Comics. Jon: I got a Xerox from John of your cover art as it was mocked up

Left: Initial cover mock-up, JC Comics’ T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1. Line art version of JCP Features #1 cover painting. Art by Mark Texeira (pencils) & Pat Gabriele (inks).

pin-ups, including Bernie Wrightson, Frank Brunner, Ernie Colón, Steve Skeates, Gray Morrow, Tony deZuñiga, Rich Buckler, Jeff Jones, Murphy Anderson, Michael Kaluta, and Tom Sutton. But the creme de là creme is, without question, the appearance of one of the greatest sequential art tales of all, “A View from Without…,” tautly written and exquisitely illustrated by Neal Adams. A devastating, powerful indictment of the Vietnam conflict raging at the time, it may be the quintessential anti-war comic book story (also boasting perhaps the best Adams art ever). Phase remains an outstanding artifact of early ’70s prozines.

Will: Well, it takes time. I’m still working at it. Jon: Who were the first professional comic book artists you met? Will: I guess Jim Steranko was the first pro I met, and that was at a convention. Jon: Was it memorable? Will: Oh, yes. He said “Who’s next in line?” and I said, “Yammayamma-yamma!”—you know, like sounding like a stammering Ralph Kramden—and I couldn’t answer him. But, as far as actually talking to anybody, I’ve mainly been isolated. Jon: You’re completely self-taught? Will: Yes. Jon: In retrospect, did you take the harder path? Will: I would say so, sure. Jon: What was your first professional work? Will: There wasn’t much before T-Agents. I did a little work for Bill Black’s AC Comics before that. Jon: Did you ever get a chance to meet Wally Wood? Will: I just saw him briefly once, at a convention. Jon: There was no desire to go and talk to him? Or were you shy? Will: We were coming down on an elevator. It opened up; there he was, and he said, “Ahh, I’ll get the next one,” and then the doors closed. I was like, “Who was that old guy?” and somebody says, “That’s your hero, Wally Wood,” and I said, “Oh my God!” Jon: Were you an avid collector of Wood’s stuff? Will: Yes, I was into the EC stuff. Jon: Did you even go back to seek out his Avon work? Will: Not for a long time, and I would say that stuff is kind of Phase One (1971) was the first foray by John Carbonaro in the publishing arena and was undoubtedly one of the finest examples of ’70s fan-produced mags (of the witzend prozine variety). Edited by Sal Quartuccio and costing an unheard-of price of $5.00, this oneshot (though intended as an ongoing annual) sports a full-color, wraparound cover painting by Ken Barr gracing 80 glossy pages. But while production values were top rate, the superlative aspect of the magazine is simply its incredible content. A stellar cast of artists and writers, many of the leading talents in the comics field, contribute an array of truly superb stories and

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Right: T-Agents pin-ups published in Amazing Heroes #7-9. Art by Mark Texeira, Pat Gabriele, Lou Manna, and Dennis Savage.

before finally printed on Blue Ribbon. It was originally intended as JC Comics’ T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #3. Will: Oh, did it really? That’s cool. I never saw that. Jon: You don’t remember its being part of the original series? Will: It was not, as far as I know. There was never a third issue. Jon: Was the rate for that cover equal to the amount of work you put into it? That is such an enormously detailed cover. Will: I had done that just for fun, for myself. Then I said, “John, what do you think about this? Could we use it sometime?” He said okay. He bought that cover and the “Captain Zap” one-pager. Jon: So you had done those pieces without any assignment, on your own? Will: Right. Jon: How was the experience of working on the stuff? Will: It was very interesting. I was doing finishing, so he would send me the stuff and I would have to work on it. As I recall, there was quite a bit of time. I could just sit there and doodle around with it, do what I wanted. I don’t know if we had any deadlines at all, actually. Jon: Did you have any interest in doing both penciling and inking? Will: At that time, yes, but it took so long for me to do penciling. I wasn’t really that good at it. And I thought, “If I’m going to try to make a little dough at this someday, I’m going to have to stick with the inking.” Jon: Was T-Agents your first regular professional assignment? Will: Yes, I guess so. Jon: You’ve worked under a lot of different pencilers. Is it easy to adapt to diverse styles when you ink? Will: Sure, yes, I think so… well, you get used to it after you get into it for a while. When I was first doing it, I would erase the pencils pretty much to the bare bones, and then I’d go back and pencil the whole thing in, and then I could ink it. I couldn’t ink it through people’s pencils. But after a while you get into it, and now after 20 years it’s much easier.

Jon: Are you working in comics today? Will: No, I’m not. Jon: Is it for lack of work, or have you changed careers? Will: It’s pretty much lack of work, yes. Jon: Did you enjoy the experience of working on T-Agents? Will: Yes. Jon: Do you wish it had lasted longer? Will: Oh, definitely, yes. In fact, I had hoped for a long time that John was going to bring it back. He used to keep in touch once in a while, and it’s just too bad, because to me it’s a home base. I always loved the comics.

Charlie Boatner Michael Charles Boatner was born on Mar. 20, 1954, in Superior, Wisconsin, and he graduated from University of California Santa Cruz, with a BA based on the study of the comic book. Charlie cites his favorite pro job as a Batman/Metal Men team-up in The Brave and the Bold #187 [June1982], and his best as the graphic novel, Hiding Place [Piranha Press, 1990], illustrated by Steve Parkhouse. Charlie’s most recent stories were in DC’s Flinch and Cartoon Cartoons, and he is currently a freelance editor, most recently for <www.highaims.com> and today for DC Comics. He is a longstanding volunteer with The Friends of Lulu, curating their lecture series at the Museum of Comics and Cartoon Art, in New York City. (Visit <www.friends-lulu.org/ny> for info.) Over the past 16 years, the writer/editor has lived in beautiful Queens, New York, with his girlfriend. Charlie was interview via e-mail in August 2005. Jon B. Cooke: Charlie, were you familiar with the ’60s incarnation of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents? Charlie Boatner: I bought #2 of the original series off the newsstand. I was transfixed by the artwork, especially the large panel of Dynamo pushing a wall down on the Dynavac robot. (I also thought 111

the android agent’s name was “NorMan,” so maybe my opinion isn’t all that reliable.) Other memories include being touched by NoMan’s dilemma and soliloquy in his solo story in #7 and bemused by Dynamo’s bravado in being shot from a cannon (Dynamo #1?). On the other hand, the all-powerful Menthor struck me as an obviously bad idea. He had to start losing his helmet regularly, starting with his second story, just to make for fair fights. Although there were good stories after #8, I thought the series jumped the shark there, after the Subterraneans were beaten.

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Left: Pencils intended as JC Comics’ T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents cover. Inked piece eventually adapted as centerspread pin-up in T-Agents #2. Art by Murphy Anderson.

me that Archie Comics was reviving their super-hero characters. I called (this being before they moved upstate) and was introduced to John Carbonaro soon after. Things moved quickly, so I ended up working on T-Agents instead. Working with John was very satisfying. There were a lot of laughs and hanging out with his associates and plotting stories on cocktail napkins. John was full of enthusiasm and wanted his books to be fun. Jon: On some credits, you’re listed as writer and others artist. Are you a double-threat? [Your imbecilic editor misread artist B.C. Boerner’s credit as being Charlie.—JBC] Charlie: Any art credit must be mistaken. I am a cartoonist, but have never had my art published by the mainstream. (You can see my cartooning in the Friends of Lulu anthologies, Storytime and Broad Appeal.) Jon: Can you give us an overview of Red Circle at the time? Charlie: Archie’s Red Circle line had three editorial directions in a period of something like one-and-a-half years: John C, Rich Buckler, and Robin Snyder, with each working their own approach. Any one of them was legitimate, but I think the constant shifting helped the line to fail. JC Comics was what it sounds like, just John, with me and a few other associates giving suggestions. Bonanno and Blyberg (and Ditko and I) were all freelancers, some in town, and others through the mail. Willie Blyberg was such a skilled inker, he was rarely hired for full art, as I think he would have liked, although Blue Ribbon Comics #12 shows his ability. Jon: Were you witness at all to the Carbonaro v. Singer controversy? Charlie: No, I was out of the picture by then but, having worked with John, I felt his claim was legitimate and was glad he was vindicated. Jon: John mentioned a T.H.U.M.P.E.R. Agents story, and also says that you are particularly good humor writer. Is that so? Charlie: Out of the blue, John suggested the idea S.P.I.D.E.R. was a less interesting batch of villains. From there, there of “Dynamo Duck.” I mulled it over and came up with a silly variation was less Wood art and the stories lost focus. on the origin story: If the Warlord had interrupted Prof. Jenning’s work Jon: What do you think of Wally Wood’s work? Did you ever earlier, the prototype devices would have still been in testing on lab meet Woody? animals. Parodying the format of Marvel’s What If? stories, it was Charlie: I never met Wood. His artwork was the first I could introduced by Archie’s janitor Svenson—the Vatcher (of vindows)— recognize. Not long after my introduction in T-Agents #2, I read a back “So what if the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents had been cute, cuddly animals?” issue of The Avengers, when Wood was inking Don Heck (#19 or soon The plan was to make the parodies a back-up feature in JC’s Hall of after). I recognized the machinery in the splash panel right away and Fame with #4. (Of course, there was no #4….) it was confirmed in the credit box. He is still one my favorite three Jon: What happened with JC Comics, and did you have further super-hero artists. contact with Carbonaro? Jon: How did you hear about the T-Agents revival? Charlie: JC Comics ended when Archie Comics cancelled it. Charlie: My friend George Lamboy, from Regal Entertainment, told Perhaps it would have done better in today’s environment, when print-

Right: Panel detail, “The Full-Fledged Return of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents,” JCP Features #1. Art by Pat Gabriele (pencils) & Mark Texeira (inks).

but maybe he does. I do recall that the assignment was a lot of fun, but I have never been happy with the inking. The inker had changed a lot of my pencil work, enough so I had to get John to tell the guy to stop. I even had to redo panels because they were altered so much. Jon: Any highlights working on T-Agents? Paul: That was a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, Jon.... I’m lucky to remember what I had for lunch yesterday! The worst thing I recall was not being satisfied with the inking, as I mentioned, but it wasn’t that the inker was bad; he just didn’t follow my pencils. Jon: Do you recall working with others during the JC Comics days… Charlie Boatner, Will Blyberg, [Red Circle editor] Rich Buckler.... Paul: I never met any of the others, but Buckler is still a sore spot. I was told he killed a Shield story I had completed for Red Circle, and that he was also giving John a hard time. My opinion of him as an artist is very low, because almost all the work I’ve seen by him seems copied directly from someone else’s material. I saw a Shield page he did that was a direct copy of Jack Kirby, and Buckler still put his name on it. Jon: How would you characterize the Paul Bonanno was born in 1949, in creative process on T-Agents? Queens, New York, where he was also Paul: Just that it was fun raised. Graduating the High School of working from a script and Art and Design in Manhattan, Paul having John as editor. was a photographer in the U.S. Air Jon: Given the chance, Force. A self-taught artist, his first would you return to the pro comic-book work was on the JC characters? Comics incarnation of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Paul: I would love to do Agents, though before that break, T-Agents again, as I’m such he illustrated for fanzines and a better artist now. My knowledge of figure work convention booklets. In three and storytelling is light issues of Bryan Glass's independent title, Spandex Tights, Paul inked the lead feature, as well as contributing humorous seven-page back-up years ahead of what it was then. (I make my living as a storyboard stories featuring his creation, Nuke Blastem (of which, Paul now says, artist, so I must be doing something right.) “I think it’s still funny, and I’m trying to better develop the characJon: What is it, you think, that has enabled T-Agents to remain ters.”) After comics work on Elfquest, New Blood, and Blood of Ten resonant through four decades? Chiefs, the artist moved on to record album cover illustration, video Paul: I just think it was a great idea for a comic book series. packaging art, Jon: Any overall lessons learned from your T-Agents experience? magazine illustration, educational book illos, and advertising art (the Paul: I learned that comics are hard work, but fun. (Oh, and before latter, which he still toils at today, earned him a reputation in producing we're done, I’d like to take this opportunity to thank John Carbonaro commercial storyboards). Married for 32 years, Paul currently lives in for giving me my first break in comics. Thanks, John!) South Plainfield, New Jersey. The artist was interviewed via e-mail on August 3, 2005. Jon B. Cooke: Paul, when did you become familiar with John Vincent Carbonaro was born in Brooklyn, New York, where he T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents? Paul Bonanno: I loved T-Agents when the comic first came out. grew up. He attended Long Island University, graduating with a BS in I was a big fan of Wally Wood, who brought a lot of elements from the Accounting. [Our apologies for the incomplete bio entry.—JBC] 1960s TV shows, like The Man from U.N.C.L.E., which he incorporated Jon B. Cooke: How did you hook up with Sal Quartuccio and what was your experience with your first publishing venture, the into super-hero comics. “prozine,” Phase One? Jon: How did you get the JC Comics gig and what transpired? John Carbonaro: Sal Q. was a young kid on my block who Paul: How I got the the job from John? I don’t really remember, on-demand and the Internet allows a smaller print run to be targeted to its audience. John and I lost touch. Jon: What's your overall assessment of the JC Comics work and the T-Agents in general? Charlie: Nothing could live up to Wood’s work and the original. T-Agents was two things: 1) the best talent of the time, sharing a project—that idea is always doable; and 2) a set of characters in a time and place, which are gone. Doing a tribute now and then is fun, of course. I enjoyed the renditions by contemporary cartoonists in Comic Book Artist #14. Whatever I just said aside, I’d enjoy working on the T-Guys again. I’d enjoy another crack at the Jaguar and The Web, too. I never met a super-hero I didn’t like. (Oh, and please note that this interview’s theme song would be Bruce Springsteen’s “Glory Days”!)

Paul Bonanno

John Carbonaro

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to do a beautiful story (which was inked by a Wood-type inker, Will Blyberg). We both loved the rendition in Blue Ribbon Comics #12. Jon: How did your association with Archie Comics come about? What were the benefits and downsides to working with them? John: I learned some production things I hadn’t previously known. I met some good production people and publishers. The experience allowed me to hire Jim Steranko, Rich Buckler, come close to getting Bill Willingham (if only his “friends” had given him the message that I called), and lined-up Jim Starlin, as well as talk to some kid named Frank Miller about working there. Instead Archie decided to go with Rich Buckler as editor, so I shifted into a joint venture with them doing T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. Unfortunately, people told me that a deal didn’t come through because Buckler’s Red Circle was dying a nasty death. Jon: What were the precise plans with the black-&-white magazine? There’s some indication that you intended to reprint-—with color added -—the contents of JCP #1 relatively soon after the magazine was published. Is that so? If yes, why? (That is, wouldn’t readers immediately recognize it as a reprint and perhaps reject the color comic?) John: I was just starting out and the creative guy in charge kept changing the rates. Eventually he intercepted a check and had it cashed. The original idea was to get a foundation to pay for going to color… and to pay for a cross-over book with Red Circle. I wrote one and gave it to Buckler, who was so late, Red Circle asked him to skip it and do Mighty Crusaders first. Jon: Is the science-fiction black-&-white comics magazine Basically Strange connected in any way to JCP Features #1? John: Sure. Unbeknownst to me, Pat Gabriele was made editor of JCP Features Presents the T-Agents (whew!), and he promised the writer, [onetime Warren Publications writer and editor] Chris Adames, that I would back a book like Chris had edited for Warren. I followed through on the promise, but sales went nowhere. Jon: Here’s a list of contributors and, if you could, please consider adding insights and anecdotes about each. Pat Gabriele? John: Pat comes off as a likable guy but wasn’t playing straight with us. He did some questionable things, but thought I wouldn’t get upset. In fact, he told me that I was so nice, I deserved to be ripped off!

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Left: Intended cover for JC Comics’ T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #3. Eventually used as cover of Blue Ribbon Comics V.2, #12. Art by Will Blyberg.

brought me into the world of fanzines. Being older, I used my money mostly to fund Phase (though Jim Ciccolella and some others also contributed). The biggest lesson I learned from Phase was to listen to others when they’re right. Sal, Jim, and another young friend put together a great fanzine, but unfortunately, we were so young we needed to learn marketing better. We split up with Sal learning as he went on to open his great publishing house, SQP, which is still in business today. I was off to college and Jim joined the work force. Jon: Precisely, how did your acquisition of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents come about? John: It was all timing. I worked at an advertising firm as an accountant when I met a friend of the staff artist who had worked for the president of Tower. I finally got her to introduce me to the president/owner. At first, I licensed them from Tower, as I was also working out a deal to bring back Red Circle and more. Eventually, I bought the property. Jon: What was the process of purchasing the characters? John: Well, Tower was having financial problems, so I had an opportunity to pay them cash in advance, instead of having them wait for licensing fees. (I also have a paper trail of the work done by lawyers regarding my acquisition.) So I wound up owning the characters and filing Tower’s 1960s’ copyright legally. Jon: Any experiences with Wallace Wood? John: Only two near-ones. As a kid doing the well-known Phase One fanzine (and losing my shirt), I had driven in front of Woody’s place, and we were all too nervous to go ask him cold for a contribution to our book. Only Frank Frazetta had also evoked this type of response from us at that time. The second time was when I got the rights and put out a call into Woody near the end of his career. Who better to contact even if just to converse with? Anyhow, I was warned off and a friend tried to catch up to him in San Diego then backed away as Woody turned into a bar. Shortly thereafter, Woody took his own life. Jon: What were your opinions of the Tower Comics era? John: Good and bad. There was no real continuity which was something the line needed… at least a little. The “Death of Menthor” is, to this day, an outstanding story. While I didn’t hire Adkins or Woody as contributors, I did get one of the original artists, Steve Ditko,

Right: One-pager written and drawn by Will Blyberg. Intended to be used in JC Comics title.

Jon: Lou Manna? John: Lou is a great guy and does really good work. His pencils look great under very good inkers like Will Blyberg, Mark Texeira, and James E. Lyle. But I was unable to get him to understand as editor he should follow directions. Oddly, he was the studio editor for the group that included Gabriele, Texeira, and Denys Cowan, as well. Jon: Mark Texeira? John: Geez, obviously when this guy stays with his realistic style, it’s beautiful. He was young and was doing great inking over Manna’s work and Gabriele’s… well, Kirby swipes, and Mark’s finishes gave the work some credibility, as long as you looked past the swipes and dumb storyline. Jon: Chris Adames? John: Well, Chris did a lot of work for Warren, and I followed through on the promise regarding Basically Strange (even though the promise wasn’t mine to keep). I used Chris and Trevor Von Eeden on a “Mister Justice” story that backed-up The Fly, even though my name was removed. It was great stuff, and Red Circle used Trevor again on “Mister Justice.” But get this: Pat Gabriele crashed at his apartment, and both Gab and Trevor’s art and video recorder wound up missing back in early ’80s. Gabriele inked it poorly and it had to be re-inked, leaving Trevor with no pages in the book except the Gabrieleinked pages. Jon: How did JCP Features do financially and in regards to distribution, and were you satisfied with the printed issue? John: It was a pretty good effort for a beginner from a new independent publisher. I was happy with the Neal Adams “Black Hood” story (which I paid Archie/Red Circle to use) and the “Fly” two-pager. What I was unhappy about was Gabriele overdoing the Kirby schtick on T-Agents and not even worrying about a sensible story. Since he disappeared, even though he was the editor, I was the one left behind to get raked over the coals on how bad the book was. It does look great in color, though. (Too bad Pat disappeared with about 23 pages of T- Agents meeting the Mighty Crusaders… It was a nice looking book and almost ready to go.) Jon: In the material you

sent me, there’s a comic-book formatted line drawing by Mark Texeira (inked by Pat Gabriele) of the painting on the cover of JCP Features #1. Which was done first? The number #1 is on the mock-up…. John: Actually neither… kind of. I walked into the studio (where Mark was working) and was astounded at a rejected Texeira painting of a Rampaging Hulk cover. So I asked if he could do a version, only with Dynamo. Mark then painted the cover. I later saw a Xerox, but never the original art for the comic-size version. But I held on to that photocopy for a behind-the-scenes glimpse, because it shows that his realistic line work is outstanding. Jon: I also have reproductions of covers by Murphy Anderson (a penciled-only image that was later adapted as a centerfold) and one by Will Blyberg (eventually printed as cover for Blue Ribbon Comics #12, but mocked up at a T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #3 cover, complete with JC Comics imprint). Are there any anecdotes behind these artifacts and can you give reasons why they were not used? John: I wanted the Anderson job as a pin-up. I figured that Murphy and Russ Heath at that time were about as close as I could get to Woody. Murphy was doing color separations for Archie, so I got to meet him and assign the piece. As for the Blue Ribbon #12 cover, Archie Comics was concerned over their Red Circle books—as they should have been—and that kept me from doing my books, because they insisted on an eightmonth lead-time, giving Red Circle priority over JC Comics. It wasn’t worth it to them to stay in a joint venture with me, plus they had moved me out as editor of Red Circle to put in Buckler to edit the line. And, though they were great people, results proved that they made a mistake. Anyhow, as fate would have it, they called me in from my new home in Texas (where I moved to help a friend), and they asked for permission to replace Buckler’s late book with the ready-to-go issue of T-Agents. This was while I was dealing with someone else who was trying to license the characters from me, but I decided to give Archie Comics permission. The potential licensor was thus irked, because Blue Ribbon Comics #12 made me the first to come out with a female version of Menthor. But said almost-

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Below: “Funny animal” character designs.

banner title if not for our association with Buckler’s Red Circle. (Sorry, but while Rich’s art was great—I helped only on the first issue—his editing needed help.) I asked that they talk to Jim Steranko instead, but I was told that I was just jealous. Anyhow, Archie had a lot on their plate, and was concerned, bottomline, with my books. That meant the Hall of Fame reprints were more to their liking than my new stuff. It was always a struggle between getting my books done as editor, and the reprints, and office politics with Rich in the house. He had one of my artists thrown out, Mark Beachum, who was to do The Fly #1. All and all, with Boatner, Bonanno and Blyberg given time on T-Agents, I thought we had a winner. (By the way, I was not given permission to use any Archie Comics’ artists unless I specifically asked them, like I did with Steve Ditko.) Jon: How did David Singer become involved in your publications? John: Sigh. Pat Gabriele told Dave about me before I had everything signed (regarding the acquisition of the characters). Eventually, since he went to law school, I met his asking price for him to draw up a contract for Tower and myself to sign. He said that since we had become friends—I had introduced him to Archie Comics and to Buckler, and lent him $500, even after I was forced to recover missing cover art he had left in a restaurant—he did not owe me a client’s fiduciary trust and could use any confidences he learned against me. Whoa! What a concept! Still, after a big speed bump, a judge signed an order against him which prompted Dave to willingly consent that my declaration of ownership was entirely legitimate. Jon: So Blue Ribbon #12 was emergency back-up? John: Yes, luckily for

Left: Charlie Boatner’s thumbnail script for “So What If the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents Had Been Cute, Cuddly Animals?” Intended as back-up for Hall of Fame #4.

licensor, one David M. Singer, later in court still claimed that his artists never saw my stuff, and it was pure coincidence that Raven wound up with unique energy claws, and that Menthor was now a woman, albeit with the mind of the original Menthor in her head. (Should I mention I have a handwritten note from one of his artists saying that Singer changed a character from an original T-Agents that I created to an Asian character? Judge for yourself by comparing the back cover of Wally Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #2 with the front cover of WWTA #3, both published by Singer’s Deluxe Comics. See the Menthor-helmeted woman on #2 miraculously change into the Asian T-Squad character on #3…?) Jon: Did you launch the Red Circle line? Did Robin Snyder and Rich Buckler come into play while you were there? Can you please explain your departure from the editor’s desk? John: I was going around to see what was available, and Archie Comics was interested in getting into the new direct-sales market. As with me acquiring the characters in the first place, it was another case of good timing. I hired Rich Buckler to replace the fleeing Gabriele (and under-appreciated Texeira… man, was he good!), and Buckler didn’t like the mess left behind. Jon: What was "The T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Tapes" back-up series? John: It was supposed to be a series of “untold stories” about the Agents, sometimes as a group, sometimes solo adventures, to fill in any gaps in a given issue or plot line. Jon: What’s your assessment of the JC Comics color line? How’d they sell and what was Archie’s input and reaction? John: Well, the three books were very sharp. Blyberg made me look good. Ditko, along with Will, did some of his best work. I think a year of monthly books would have made it a

Right: Dynamo painting by Paul Bonanno.

everyone. It would’ve been better if I got some money for use of that material, but that’s okay, Archie was very cool with me. I liked them all, [Archie publishers] Richard Goldwater and Michael Silberkeit, [editor] Victor Gorelick and [colorist] Barry Grossman. But they did kick us out of the office once, when Singer commandeered their stat machine, making the production department rightfully angry. I was guilty by association. Jon: You sent me a Fandom Feature cover that had T-Agents fighting the MLJ/Red Circle heroes. Was there a planned cross-over? Did you hope to merge the two universes? John: Yes, I was going to handle it rather than let Gabriele muck-up another book. If he took his time and followed directions Pat could be very good, but again, good art does not equal good story or good editing. I wrote a story where we meet the Mighty Crusaders individually. I had Black Hood pursue a villain in a car chase in one chapter. Looking from a rooftop, the original Shield had been reanimated from a statue (per a 1960s story). I had him explain that this was done by bio-electricity generated by Simon & Kirby’s Shield (whom I now called Captain Strong, to avoid confusion). Anyhow he’s on his way to meet The Comet, the space swashbuckler, but it seems that the process left him halfway human, dulling his senses of touch and feeling due to high-density atmosphere. This gave him some invulnerability and super-strength. Comet ditches the hat and reverts to his red/white costume (which I got Buckler to use for Mighty Crusaders #1). The plan was for them to go to a planet The Comet was once on and have outer space adventures. Hmmm… who at that time could I get to do good cosmic stuff? My bet was on Jim Starlin. I got his rates and came back to Archie with the costs and was turned down flat in favor of Buckler’s picks. In anticipation of that cross-over, I allowed Lou Manna to draw a piece for Fandom Feature, but neither the comics or that fanzine cover ever appeared. (Coincidentally, I introduced the FF guys to David Singer, and they later became his first art director and editor at Deluxe. Jon: Here’s another list o’ names I hope you can enlighten us with your insights. John Workman? John: John lived near Lou Manna on Staten Island, and he was also art director for Heavy Metal, at the time. I met John and his wife, and we all hit it off. My failure to get Lou to follow my editor’s directions made me choose a professional to edit the book, but John quit over the same problem. I found someone new to fill in the gap as the dead-

line was becoming a problem, and Paul Bonanno gladly handled the job around his regular work chores. I was thrilled to see what he could do in a rush, and he made life easier for both Blyberg and myself. Given time, I thought we had a winner with the JC Comics’ T-Agents. I was later told that of all the issues of Blue Ribbon Comics, #12 (featuring T-Agents) was the best received. Amazing! Jon: Will Blyberg? John: Who’s he? Only just about the best inker I’ve ever had the opportunity to work with in those days! He’s gone onto great things like DNAgents, Astro City, and other pro books. Can I claim him as a find? Come on! Oh, well. I guess his talent made his success. Today, I’ve made many friends who help me look good, and I use artist James E. Lyle to clean up after me, and since he’s still trying to break into the field (more or less), I do okay by him! Jon: Charlie Boatner? John: Ahhh… Charlie and Chris Adames were pretty much the only real writers I had at the time. Chris leaned towards horror stuff, and Charlie was great with humorous material. (I have a “T.H.U.M.P.E.R. Agents” story by Charlie, drawn by James Fry, that would make anyone laugh! Archie Comics gave me permission to use the Vasher, that janitor with an accent from Archie Comics, to tell the… umm… tail.) Jon: Paul Bonanno? John: Paul is a commercial artist whose stuff is clean and beautiful. He can draw women, but still does a variety of material like Elfquest, as well as super-heroes. I thought a run on T-Agents would have made him famous. Though we had the team, the conditions were just not right, for once a case of bad timing. (But I did receive a mysterious e-mail informing me that Paul has yet another job! Yowsa!) Jon: Steve Ditko? John: Bob Layton was super busy and couldn’t get me my cover for Hall of Fame #3. [Red Circle editor] Robin Snyder offered Steve’s services. I wasn’t thrilled with his current output but I always thought he did a good NoMan in Tower Comics. So I asked for a NoMan cover. It was amazing. Given the right situation, Steve still would do not just good but great work! After getting permission from Red Circle (my partner at the time, I had Charlie Boatner work up a story for Steve on NoMan and animals. Myself and the world was astounded again as Steve handed in some of what I thought was great work. I had Blyberg ink it and it got, if it could, better. All I had to do was buy the doublepage spread from Steve. He turned me down explaining he didn’t sell

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instead, but didn’t. But I always had an affinity for the characters; I always liked them. Wood’s art was always great. When I got a little bit older I started to buy them and was a fan from that point on. Jon: Did you know John Carbonaro? Lou: I started to work in this business around 1978 or ’79. I thought of bringing samples around to DC around 1975. The usual two or three years of redemption, and work on samples of this and that. Then I wound up meeting Jimmy Janes, who was working on black-&white Warren comics. So I was able to ghost some stuff and assist him a little bit in his studio. Later on, Rich Buckler worked in there, as did Denys Cowan and Mark Texeira. I met Pat Gabriele there and, through Pat, John Carbonaro. John and I hit it off, and John just had gotten the Louis Peter Manna was rights to the characters. He born on August 9, 1954, asked me if I would do the in Staten Island, New first b-&-w story, which was York, where he was raised The Raven. Mark Texeira and still resides. A selfinked that. From there I taught artist, Lou never started laying out some of had a lesson except for the other books for him, and one night class at the then Pat did some work, and School of Visual Arts. then Mark did some work. The artist spent five years Everybody pitched in, and submitting samples to then we put out that book, Marvel and DC before and it was successful. finally landing his first pro Jon: What was John like? assignment, House of Lou: John was very Mystery #305, characterpossessive of the characters. ized as a “great learning He knew them inside and experience.” Lou also out, and had tentative ideas assisted artist Jim Janes on about what he wanted to The Rook and Legion of do. He would bend a bit. Super-Heroes, and had When we started working on solo work appear in the comic book, he trusted Infinity, Inc., Young AllStars, Spider-Man, Rogue, Jaguar, The Phantom (a personal favorite), me to do a good job on a color comic, and I remember doing a lot of among others. He has also produced corporate art for Chase Bank and the plotting with him and [editor] Chris Adames. I think, at the time, Accenture. Lou is currently working for Layne Morgan Media on their we all banged around a plot. I know John had some specifics in mind. book line, and cites his 2000 independent series, Salem St. James, as I remember working on that first splash with NoMan. We seemed to a career highlight. He was interviewed by phone in June 2005. work pretty well together; we were fairly comfortable. Jon B. Cooke: When were you first exposed to T.H.U.N.D.E.R. In the beginning, we worked really well together, then he had Agents, Lou? some ideas he wanted to do, I had some ideas I wanted to do, and Lou Manna: I was a big comic book collector from when I was we would butt heads on certain things. But overall, I think we eight years old. I remember seeing those T-Agents comic books, picking respected each other and stayed friends. up a copy, seeing Wally Wood’s work, and saying, “25¢? That’s too I remember he and I sat down, and I was looking for a Wally expensive!” I couldn’t afford it at that time. When you’re a kid and Wood-type inker, and I had seen Willie Blyberg’s stuff in The Comics you have 25¢, you could buy two 12¢ comics. So I remember seeing Journal. I think he was just semi-pro at the time. I said, “Boy, this guy has a nice Wally Wood inking style. He’d be good.” John listened to them, thinking the art was great, and wishing I could buy those

Lou Manna

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Left: Partially inked splash page of unpublished Dynamo story. Art by Lou Manna (pencils) & James E. Lyle (inks).

his art but I guess saw something in my crestfallen face and gave them to me. Twenty+ years later I still have them. I have to admit that my marketing skills were weak at that time, and I was too trustful of people I helped in the beginning. I listened to people and grew a bit as an editor back then. Learning a good many things that hopefully will get this book back on track as a new series. My lumps/failings will help in the future. I met good people along the way as well as the bad ones. The Archie people were outstanding no matter how they differed with me on things. (Say, are you gonna print this? I’d better shut up!)

Below: Wraparound cover art intended for Fandom Feature magazine circa 1982. Art by Lou Manna (pencils) & Mike Gustovich (inks).

my suggestion, went out and got Willie, and I thought he did a great job on the first one that I did. I really was impressed with his inks. I know he did develop his own style, but I thought in the beginning he was a pretty good Wally Wood. I know my artwork at the time was still developing, but he really cleaned up a lot of the stuff I gave him. I remember initially Mark Texeira inked my Raven story, in the first issue of T-Agents. I was impressed with his inks, too. Mark was also just starting out, but he took figures that were weak and really punched them up, and I think, cleaned up what I had in my pencils originally. Jon: Did you work on the T-Agents during two eras? There was a lapse of a couple of years there, right? Lou: I started with the b-&-w magazine and did the two issues of the color comic. For the second issue, we got John Workman involved as an editor. He lived in Staten Island, where I lived, so we kind of knew each other, and I thought John would be great as an editor for those books. More of an art director than an editor, because John Carbonaro was, I guess, the overall editor. Jon: Was Workman simultaneously working at Heavy Metal? Lou: Yes, he was the art director there, and I brought over what we had. I had done a second issue of T-Agents before the one that came out. I think there were some other characters in it. I think John had wanted to put a character called Captain Thunder in it, and I remember doing that particular book. Then it was scrapped, and then we went out and did the second issue. The Iron Maiden was in that one. Then something happened; there was a lag in between, and I wound up doing some work for DC at the time. I was starting to work on some of their characters. Then John and I had a bit of a falling out, and he got

a few other people to finish that book. That was it. There was an issue of Blue Ribbon Comics that had some stuff, but it petered out after that. Maybe several years later, John and I ran into each other at a comic convention. He and I brokered a deal where I was going to start work for him again on Dynamo and a few other characters, and I was going to self-publish with him. That didn’t pan out. John was good like that. John is a good guy and I like him a lot, but you get a full head of steam going, and then John will sometimes say, “Well, let’s wait and see what happens with this,” or, “I’ve got this other guy who may want to invest in this.” I think things change. I don’t know what happened with the DC stuff. I was looking forward to that. That could be a pattern there. John is very good with the characters; he loves those characters, he owns those characters. I think sometimes that gets in the way, because he has definitive ideas, and sometimes he can’t go forward with them like he’s longed to. I actually did do a little bit of T-Agents since then. I did a story inked by James Lyle. If there was going to be a revival of T-Agents again, it was more towards the Wally Wood style, and it was pretty complete stuff. Then they sold the option to DC, and that died out. So it’s a shame these characters are living in limbo somewhere, but they should be revived again. But I think there’s been so many revivals of them that people don’t know exactly where the starting point is. Jon: Mark Texeira wondered if there was a curse with the T-Agents. Lou: There might be, because it took me a while to get work after the T-Agents, and then every time I did a little revival, it took a little while until I’d get work again. So it could be. [laughter] I just finished The Phantom not long ago, and that’s another book that has a curse to it, I think. It’s a great character, but try to find it. I think T-Agents are the same. They’re good characters when they’re done right. I know Paul Gulacy did a nice job. I’ve seen a few pages of the DC stuff they were trying to do, that looked good. I saw an Alan Davis piece that he did for T-Agents that looked terrific. It seems as if everybody, at one time or another, wants to do those

characters. The high-profile guys have always said they liked those characters. They’ve wished they could have done them or wanted to do them, or maybe have. But it’s a shame that the characters just don’t seem to be able to hit in the market today. If they were revived in a different way in today’s society, if you dropped them into the real world today, they might have a little impact. Jon: It’s interesting: in the package that John Carbonaro sent me, there was a markup of a cover for T-Agents #1. It was pen-&-ink, penciled by Mark Texeira and inked by Pat Gabriele. He obviously adapted that to make it into a painting. Was the T-Agents initially intended to be a color comic book? Lou: No, initially it was going to be just strictly b-&-w. We did it as magazine-size because it was cheaper to print. I think John had gotten a good rate. I remember when Mark painted that picture, actually. My grandmother had an old house with a little apartment in the back, and she had a storefront. We rented the storefront to Jimmy Janes and he made his studio out of it, and that’s how I got in with all those people. Then Pat Gabriele and Denys Cowan lived in the apartment in the

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Left: Detail of unpublished penciled splash page. Art by Lou Manna.

back. I lived in a house next door, and I remember going back and forth all day. We’d go into each other’s place, and I remember Mark painting that in the kitchen of the house. He was sitting there in the kitchen painting the T-Agents. Then we’d all work on some of those pages. I’d take a bunch home, because they needed some layouts done, and I think I laid out that second story in there that was inked by Pat. I think Mark did some of it; I think maybe Denys

did some panels or something like that. But I remember going home and laying that story out. About two or three days, but they needed it right away. After I had done the initial story with Mark, I think Mark did the main characters and Pat did the backgrounds and stuff like that. That was the b-&-w. I think they were successful on that. It sold pretty well, and I think we started to get involved with Archie and Red Circle at the time. It’s hard to remember correctly, it’s been so long, but I think Red Circle got involved, and then that’s when the color stuff started coming into play. I remember getting some work from the president, Mike Silberkeit. I started doing some books for them, Web and Jaguar and stuff like that, based on the fact that T-Agents was advertised in the back of those books. So there was some cross-over. I think John went to Archie because they gave him some money, and then he became the editor of their line for a time. Then I think he passed it over to Rich Buckler, who did other things with it. Then John dropped by the side. He moved to Texas, and I lost track of him for a few years. I always wanted to get in contact, because I always wanted to do a revival. Again, I wanted to do it right. I thought my artwork had improved enough where I could carry it much better this time around. We did make some agreements a few different times, and went out and did pencils. I did a 22-page book for him that was going to be another T-Agents. Again, I did the plot. He gave me an outline; I started working on a plot. I think we had a falling out over one particular speech of a new character, and that was basically the end of it. We just stopped working together. Jon: You previously mentioned a character called Captain Thunder. Did you think actually it was Captain Zap? Lou: Yeah, it could have been. I remember the character. I think he had a goatee. I think he had some kind of wave powers, sort of like a sonic scream. Jon: That was a Willie Blyberg character? Lou: Not that I know of, no. I think Willie only got involved in a few issues, and I think he was gone by that time. Actually, no, that was going to be the second one before the second one actually came out, so Willie would have been involved in that. He would have inked it, at least. John Workman, I know, was editing at the time, doing the art direction, because I know we scrapped the whole thing. There were a lot of changes he needed to be made, and I had to change a lot of things. We scrapped that and went on to the second one with the Iron Maiden, which worked out better. Jon: Obviously, one of the highlights of ’60s comics was T-Agents, especially because of the quality of the artwork. Was it somewhat intimidating to try to match that? Lou: No, I was too naive. [laughter] At that time, I was just trying

Right: Page from unpublished Dynamo comic book. Art by Lou Manna (pencils) & James E. Lyle (inks).

to get work. I was just trying to start. I’d worked on Jimmy Janes’s Legion of Super-Heroes for about a year, and I did a lot of those layouts for those books. A lot he would use and some he wouldn’t, and he would erase all the pencils and redraw it in his own way. But I would breakdown those scripts for him, and I got a pretty good reputation of being able to tell a story fairly well. So I actually had no pressure, because John was the first editor I’d had who I knew. At DC and Marvel, I was always intimidated by those people, because when I’d go there I’d walk on eggshells, hoping that they’d like my work enough that I would get some assignments. With John, I became friendly with him before I got work, so it was almost like, “Oh, I’m helping my friend out to do a comic book.” So I never really felt the Wally Wood pressure, although when the first issue came out, my pencils were probably weak at that point. When I saw Willie finish and clean it up so nice, I was very excited about it. He did a great job, I thought, and I knew it’d look close enough that it would get a pretty good response. And I think it did. I remember that first cover. I penciled it one Sunday afternoon, not thinking much of it, and that got a pretty good response. When Willie inked that, it looked pretty decent, too. He had a nice way of cleaning up stuff that I gave him, which I was really happy about. Jon: Why are you listed as the associate editor of the Archie-published color comics? Lou: Because I did help John out a lot. The plotting sessions were done by John and myself. I think that Chris Adames was brought in at first, and even David Singer, before the falling out with John. I remember him coming to my house one time—actually, David and I didn’t hit it off, either—and he was trying to get the rights away from John. I asked him to get out of my house, because he was trying to work a deal with me. He promised all the work in the world if I would just turn on John, or something like that, and I wouldn’t do that. I plotted with Chris, plotted with John, and he had it worked out. Then I suggested, “Let’s get John Workman involved,” and we did. Then I suggested maybe we should get a different letterer, because Pat was doing the lettering at the time, and I thought maybe we needed a different letterer. I think that’s why we got John Workman involved, because John was mostly going to do the lettering. I don’t remember if he did or not, but I know John is a great letterer, so we thought we could get him to jazz it up a little bit more. I remember suggesting Willie as the inker for that book, and John Carbonaro taking that suggestion. So I got an associate editor credit because I did help plot out that series of books for him. Then when we had the falling out, that fell apart, and we didn’t do much after that. Jon: Did Chris Adames come on board after you? Lou: Yes, and he did the scripting and dialogue. John and I plotted out the first two T-Agents books. I didn’t have a script to work from. We did it with no script. Basically we sat down and talked about what we wanted to put in. We thought what might look cool—“Let’s start with an alien invasion, with NoMan on page one, have a double-page splash, and make every second or third page a double-page spread, to give it some interest.”—and I remember plotting it out that way. Then

we put in the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Squad, and stuck a segment into that, because he wanted to get Weed and those other characters in there. We plotted as we went along. He had ideas and I had ideas, and we mixed and matched and meshed them together. Then Chris came aboard and did all the dialogue. Jon: Do you know who Charlie Boatner is? Lou: Charlie did some additional dialogue, if I remember correctly. I never met Charlie, but his name is familiar. He did do some writing with John. Jon: Who was Paul Bonanno? Lou: He was also a friend of John. He replaced me after I left, somewhere in the second issue. I left midway through the second or third issue. He finished up my last book; I think it had a little different style. He got to know John, and John asked him to help out and finish it up so they could get it out. Jon: You briefly touched upon Singer. Is that the extent of your recollection of him? Lou: Dave came around with John a few times, and then came around a couple times without John. I remember him coming to my house and telling me something about how the characters were going to be his characters, and that if I would just—I forget what he wanted me to do—go against John, say something or do something, and he would promise me all the T-Agent work I could handle. But I told him “Get out of my house.” I threw him out, basically. Jon: Did you think his request was disingenuous? Lou: It’s vague how I remember it, but I do recall him asking me

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who he could trust. Even tomorrow, if he called me up and said, “Let’s do a book; I’m not sure where it’s going to be printed, I’m not sure where the money’s coming from, but we should do it,” I would do it, because I did enjoy the characters. As you get older your artwork should get better, and I’d like to take another shot at them, being 20 years older and being that much more knowledgeable about the craft that I worked in. Jon: Were you close with Pat Gabriele at all? Lou: I met Pat. Pat was a character, and he probably still is. He had this Southern accent, and he was very confident—a very confident inker, a very confident penciler—and he really loved Jack Kirby’s work, and used a lot of Kirby influence. His style was like Kirby. I don’t know if that really worked for T-Agents. He was especially excited about the first one, the black-&-white one, and put a lot of work into that. I’m not sure if I met him around the same time I met John, but they were friends originally, and that’s how I met Pat. He and I were friendly at first, but Pat had a way of wanting to dominate everything, and that wasn’t what I was looking for at the time. He wanted to have all the control and all the inking on every page, practically. It wasn’t what I was interested in. I think that’s why John and I hit it off better. We were quieter people; we weren’t loud and rambunctious. We were both comic book fans. He happened to own those characters, and I happened to be able to draw them for him. I think that’s why we hit it off. I think he realized he could trust me, and I think that’s why I became his associate editor on those books, because he knew I wasn’t out to—I was just happy to be able to do the work, and I was happy that I had some say in the matter. It gave me some satisfaction. I wasn’t looking for an ego thing; I was looking to develop my stuff. It was a joy to work on those characters. I know, somewhere along the road, somebody will bring those things back again. If not John, somebody will. I had a good time with him, and wish I had a chance to revisit it at some point. I have nothing but good memories.

John Workman John Elbert Workman, Jr., was born in Beckley, West Virginia, on June 20, 1950, and grew up in Aberdeen, Washington. He attended Grays

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Left: Amazing Heroes #8 cover. Art by Dennis Fujitake.

some crazy stuff about going against John. I talked to John about it afterwards, who assured me that he owned the characters and not Singer. But then, six months or a year later, there was Singer coming out with George Pérez and Jerry Ordway’s stuff. Nice-looking work, but I knew they were John’s characters, who had them lock, stock, and barrel. So I don’t know how it happened. I know it cost John a lot of money to go to court to make sure the characters were his. Jon: Singer was claiming the characters were in the public domain? Lou: He might have been saying the characters were public domain, or that John signed the characters over to him, or something to that effect. It was some legal thing that he had the characters and not John. He and John were fighting it out in court for about ten years, quite a bit of time. That was one of the reasons why T-Agents went into limbo. It was a hot potato after that; nobody wanted to touch it. By the time they got through all the legal stuff, I guess it must have fallen into everybody’s hands, at one point or another. Everybody tried to revive it. Right before John made his deal with DC, he and I actually had a handshake agreement that we were going to produce a series of T-Agents books: 48 pages, in black-&-white, squarebound. I actually started, maybe, two versions. Then he made a deal with DC, or somebody else, and he’d made the deal with Penthouse before that. John always had a deal going where he was going to get these characters published again, and then it would fall apart. Jon: Besides the politics, how do you look back at your experience working on T-Agents? Lou: I always liked the characters. It was a good starting point for me. I got a good bunch of characters right off the bat, which was unusual in this business. I didn’t even know it; I was too naive to know it, but they were great characters for me to work on. I wish I was able to continue to work on them, even today. If John called up tomorrow and said, “Look, I want you to do T-Agents again,” I would do it. I like John no matter what. He’s still a good guy, and I think he’s pretty loyal in a lot of ways. I think that’s probably what helped and hurt him. He had to watch who he could trust to be loyal to him in return, and he was burned a few times, but I think overall he knew

Right: JC Comics promotional art, Amazing Heroes #7. Art by Pat Gabriele (?).

Harbor College and Clark College, majored in art and journalism, and received an associate in arts degree from GHC in ’70. After working in local and regional advertising, the writer/artist created the sciencefiction comic series Sindy and humor strip Fallen Angels in ’72, both appearing in two men’s magazines with a combined circulation of 250,000. In ’74, work that he did for Mike Friedrich’s Star*Reach garnered recognition from New York-based comics creators, resulting in a two-year stint in the DC Comics production department. From ’77’84, John was the art director for Heavy Metal magazine, a position that enabled him to write, draw, letter, color, edit, and design for what was then a cutting-edge publication, and for its sister magazine, National Lampoon. In the years since his HM days, Workman has continued to write and draw for numerous companies ranging from Archie Comics to Playboy, but is probably best-known to comics readers as a letterer, a task that he’s often handled for artists Walter Simonson, Tommy Lee Edwards, and John Paul Leon. John was interviewed by telephone on June 11, 2005. Jon B. Cooke: Were you familiar with T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents in the 1960s, John? John Workman: Oh yeah. I remember going to a local beach when I was a kid, walking into a store, heading over to the comic book section, and seeing T-Agents #1! I had no idea that it was coming out, and was amazed to see the Wally Wood cover, and the Wood, Reed Crandall, Gil Kane, and Mike Sekowsky art inside. Jon: Were they some of the best super-hero comics of the ’60s? John: Well, I was never that happy with the writing. I thought the stories were kind of lightweight, but they were still the closest things to the Captain Marvel titles of the ’40s. Not nearly as good as the Captain Marvel stuff, but Dynamo had some of that goofiness of Captain Marvel about him, and I liked that. Jon: How did your association with the revival of the characters come about? John: I was actually involved in two separate revivals. I bought the house that comics artist Lou Manna’s cousin had originally owned on Staten Island. I was talking to the fellow and he said, “Oh, my cousin is working in comic books!” And that was Lou Manna, who later did some things for Roy Thomas at DC. Lou became involved in John Carbonaro’s revival of T-Agents and John asked me if I would edit for the upcoming Archie Comics (Red Circle) edition of T-Agents. At this point, John had already published the JC Comics issues, and some other artists were involved, including Rich Buckler. Anyway, John and Lou came over to my house, and we had a

plotting session for this one issue of T-Agents, and it was the most maddening thing. We would get the story down pretty solid, as far as the plot, and then John would decide, for instance, “Let’s throw in some giant ants!” This was just because he loved the movie Them! Well, there was nothing in what we had formulated that involved giant ants, so we had to somehow work these huge insects into the story. [chuckles] And then, I remember, John had really enjoyed a sequence in one of the old Tower T-Agents issues where a landing craft hits the beach and, instead of a platoon of soldiers, Dynamo alone comes out and runs onto the beach. John wanted to re-do that in the issue that we were putting together! So we had to work that sequence in, even though it didn’t really fit with what we had. I just threw up my hands at some point, and when the book did come out, John and I were listed as co-editors on it. I was kind of embarrassed because I would rather have not had my name on it as editor. I felt that whatever editing I had done had been obliterated. [chuckles] It was fun, nonetheless, working on the characters. Jon: You were involved in two stages of Carbonaro’s comics? The 1981 black-&-white magazine and the 1983 color comics? John: The only thing I remember doing for the b-&-w was possibly the logo, but my memory might be faulty. But I do remember doing the logo for John at some point and, later on, I redid the logo for Dave Singer for the Deluxe Comics revival. (Of course, I based both of them on the old logo from the ’60s.) And Dave wanted to emphasize the “Wally Wood” connection, so the actual title of his books was Wally Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. I do remember that when John was working on the JC Comics, I got Murphy Anderson to do a cover, and it was great fun, as I always admired Murphy’s work. Murphy did what I thought was a perfectly wonderful cover, but John was disappointed with it for some reason. So, rather than running it as a cover, he ran it as a centerfold in one of the issues. Jon: When you were working with Carbonaro, you were moonlighting from your day job as the art director of Heavy Metal? John: Right. I worked on T-Agents over weekends.

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[Editor’s note: John’s comments on working for David Singer can be found in the Deluxe Comics section.]

JM & T-Agents: A Noble Experiment Yet another T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents-related oddity is the Noble Comics/Texas Comics one-shot, Justice Machine Annual #1 [1983], which boasted a cross-over between the ambitious Mike Gustovich’s super-powered team with our beloved T-Agents (as well as a nifty “Elementals” back-up, with story and art by now-celebrated writer Bill Willingham), all behind a superb Michael Golden cover. While it would have been great to have included recollections of all the contributors in that ish (Gustovich, Bill Loebs, Jeff Dee and Bill Anderson), we are restricted by space limitations to feature just this brief interview with JMA #1 penciler Bill Rheinhold, who gives some background of this crossover curiosity.

Bill Reinhold

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Below: Justice Machine Annual #1 cover art by Michael Golden.& Mike Gustovich.

Bill: I met Mike Gustovich, creator and owner of Noble Comics, in 1981, at the Chicago Con. This was when I was just starting to show Jon B. Cooke: What’s the story behind T-Agents appearing in my portfolio around to comic-book publishers. He liked my work and I that Justice Machine Annual? took over penciling Justice Machine, with Mike inking over me. Mike John Carbonaro: I allowed Texas Comics to do a crossover, lived in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and first launched Justice Machine, just thinking it would be neat. But I was fooled by their replacing Paris drawing it himself with Bill Loebs writing. Five issues were published by Cullins as penciler with Bill Reinhold, which I thought was a mistake. Noble, with the last two having flip-covers, one side featuring the JM Still, they did have an amazing new hot shot creator, Bill Willingham, team, the other a super-hero creation of Mike’s, Cobalt Blue. and I even got copies of the pencils of his aborted attempt at illustratThe first JM issue boasted a John Byrne cover, and Mike later ing that story. Based on seeing Bill’s work, I persuaded Archie/Red corralled pro inkers Joe Rubinstein, Terry Austin, and Bob Layton to ink Circle to give me a book for Bill to pencil. Unfortunately, my messages covers he penciled. On other covers, Mike commissioned Rich Buckler, (conveyed through his friends) to the phone-less Willingham were not Jerry Bingham, and Keith Pollard to pencil with his inks. Mike did all received, so he never got the job offer for an actual paying gig from a this from his house and can be credited as being one of the earliest real publisher. (I once heard a quote attributed to Bill about why he self-publishers of a super-hero comic book. stopped drawing—this was before he concentrated on writing—sayMike got together with then-T-Agents publisher John Carbonaro to ing, “I quit because I do this for a living, not a hobby!”) put out a crossover starring T-Agents and Justice Machine. Texas Comics Didja know part of the deal was that I’d be able to do my own was supposed to take up publishing JM, as Noble went out of business, crossover with Justice Machine? If I had gotten paid from this one-time but the annual was the only JM title they released. We completed a endeavor, I might have done just that…. new #1 for them, started a second, but Texas Comics never printed either one. (That first issue was published years later by Comico.) I was very excited to get the opportunity to work on established characters from my childhood. Bill Reinhold was born on March 18, 1955, in Chicago, Illinois, and until 21 years old, he was convinced he was going to be a professional Also by this time, I was a big Wood fan. (By the way, I also colored much of the drummer. After putting those musical aspirations aside, Bill gave his story, and need to add that Jeff Dee, an attention to art at the American Academy of Art in Chicago, where he earned a Graphic Arts degree in 1982. For the past quarter-century, he underrated artist, did an excellent job inking my has been drawing and inking comics professionally, doing his most notable work for First Comics, Marvel, and DC. Best known for work on pencils.) The Badger, Punisher, and Silver Surfer, Bill is also an accomplished inker, including Marvel’s Daredevil, the Earth X trilogy, and The Hulk among his credits. At DC, he’s inked Batman and Fate, among other comics. The artist is also co-creator, with writer Mike Baron, of Spyke, published by Epic. Recently, Bill has illustrated for Upper Deck trading cards, and he frequently lectures students on comic art, storytelling, and caricature. He lives 50 miles northwest of Chicago with wife Linda Lessmann Reinhold, kids Leanna and Mike, two cats, two fish, and a turtle. Bill was interviewed via e-mail in June 2005. Jon B. Cooke: Were you familiar with tT.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents? Bill Reinhold: Sure. I saw ’em on the stands as a kid in the ’60s. But I didn’t become attracted to Wallace Wood’s art until I was older and working to become an artist. Woody was definitely a big influence on my early stuff. Jon: How did you become involved in the Justice Machine Annual?

John Carbonaro

1984-86: The Deluxe Comics Years Certainly after the par excellence of the original T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents under art director Wallace Wood’s superb guidance, there is little argument that the next high point for the characters came in the guise of David M. Singer’s Deluxe Comics line of the mid-1980s. Though his time in American comics appears to have been a short one, David made a big impression with his books, considered by more than a few to be one of the best super-hero lines of that decade, by hiring some of the prominent creative names in the industry—Dave Cockrum, co-creator of the revamped X-Men; George Pérez, co-creator of the revamped (New) Teen Titans; Keith Giffen, hot off a significant run on Legion of Super-Heroes; Steve Englehart, writer of an outstanding “Batman” series of a few years prior; among others—as well as investing high production values into the imprint. But Deluxe was always on shaky grounds, both legal and financial, as Singer would later lose his court challenge against John Carbonaro, with Singer failing to prove that the T-Agents were in public domain. With that verdict, David M. Singer disappeared from the world of comics. (It’s worth noting that a second T-Agents title was announced in 1985, Tales of T.H.U.N.D.E.R., and while it remains listed in The Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide, no other evidence points to its existence.)

Right: Poster illustration by Dave Cockrum.

Dave Cockrum David Emmett Cockrum was born on November 11, 1943, in Pembrokan, Oregon, and he attended Southern Illinois University and the University of Colorado. After a six-year hitch in the U.S. Navy, Dave had his first professional comic book work published by Warren Publications in 1971. The artist then joined Murphy Anderson’s studio as an assistant and, after a year, went out on his own, immediately making an impact on “The Legion of Super-Heroes” in Superboy. Dave began freelancing for Marvel and, along with writer Len Wein, co-created a retooled X-Men, contributing his creations, Nightcrawler, Colossus, and Storm. Though he would periodically return to the mutant team, Dave went on to produce memorable work in John Carter, Warlord of Mars and Blackhawk, among others. In 1983, Dave created, wrote and drew The Futurians, packaged as a creator-owned graphic novel for Marvel Comics; Deluxe Comics publisher David Singer (under another imprint name, Lodestone) released three issues of Dave’s super-team between ’85-86). Thereafter, the artist has worked for DC, Valiant, Defiant, Broadway, and Claypool Comics. Though Dave has suffered some medical set-backs in recent years (which prompted a benefit book, helmed by Clifford Meth of Aardwolf Publishing, to help with medical expenses), he is recovering in his new South Carolina digs with wife Paty and their pet macaws, well enough to take in the occasional comic convention.

Jon B. Cooke: While in the service, were you exposed to T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents, Dave? Dave Cockrum: Oh yeah, I got them first-run off the stands, when the comics first appeared. I’ve got the entire run, as well as the DC Archive editions. It was one of my favorite books from the 1960s. Jon: What made it a favorite? Dave: It was fun! That’s always been my criteria. [laughter] I loved Wally Wood’s artwork, amongst other things, and the stories were funny as often as not. When it wasn’t funny, it was usually a good drama. T-Agents was a good read. Jon: You met Wallace Wood? Dave: I worked for him briefly. I got a job with him as a penciler. Wally was doing comic strips for the Overseas Weekly, a soldier and sailor’s newspaper: Cannon, Sally Forth, and a third strip called Shattuck (which was a Western). I penciled Shattuck with Jack Abel inking and Wally writing it. The object of the assignment was to get the girls out of their clothes as quickly as possible. Jon: [Chuckles] The strip intended for servicemen, right? Was this prior to Howard Chaykin’s work on the strip? Dave: Chaykin started it and then he gave it up pretty quickly. My first one may have been to finish off a Chaykin strip. I seem to remember there was some Chaykin 125

Dave: No. We lived in Queens at the time, so it wasn’t that far. Jon: Did you stay in touch with Woody for the remainder of his life? Dave: No, unfortunately, I didn’t. The only other time I came across him was when I was penciling Giant-Size Avengers [#2] and the Crusty Bunkers [artists at Neal Adams and Dick Giordano’s Continuity Studios] were inking. For some reason, Woody was up at Continuity, and he wound up inking at least a panel on one of the pages, and we sat there and shot the breeze a little bit. Jon: If one was to look at that comic, could you tell it was Woody? Dave: Probably. It would look more like his work than mine, but I don’t recall what panel. (I know there was a full-page with Iron Man in the foreground, flying over a giant robot, and Neal Adams inked that and it looks like his work.) Jon: How did you hear about the Deluxe Comics’ revival of T-Agents? Dave: David Singer contacted me to say he was interested in having me work on it. Then we got talking about my Futurians graphic novel, at a time when I was on the verge of making a deal with Marvel for a continuing Futurians series to appear as an Epic book. But David offered me a huge amount of money, more than Marvel would pay me, to do Futurians for him. I mean it was pie-inthe-sky stuff, really. I asked [Epic editor] Archie Goodwin if he could match the offer, and Archie said no, and unfortunately I went with Singer. I wound up not getting all the money I was promised, he shut down the company before the fourth issue came out, and he absconded with some of my artwork. Singer eventually sold that art to Eternity Comics to publish and fortunately they called me up and asked if it was all right. I said, “Hell, no!” and made a deal with them. Jon: The Futurians had been a top-selling graphic novel for Marvel? Dave: It went into three printings. Jon: And the Lodestone series was a continuation of that book. Did it make sense to have one narrative between two publishers? Wouldn’t it have been more natural for Lodestone to reprint the graphic novel? Dave: The graphic novel was under contract with Marvel, they owned the publishing rights, and the agreement was that if the graphic

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Left: Full page from “The Iron Maiden,” Wally Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #3. Art by Dave Cockrum (pencils) & Murphy Anderson (inks).

stuff involved. The I wound up penciling with Abel inking. Jon: Where was Woody’s studio during this time? Dave: Valley Stream, Long Island. Jon: What was Woody like? Dave: He was funny… and sarcastic to some degree. Unfortunately, he was a bit boozy, because he had a problem with alcohol, but I liked him. He was a good guy. I didn’t do that many episodes of Shattuck—it wasn’t doing as well as the other two—and I wound up getting “The Legion of SuperHeroes” assignment and that pretty much took all of my time. Jon: Were you at the studio on a daily basis? Dave: No, I usually took my work home. He would lay it out the way he wanted the panels to be and also letter in the copy, pretty much leaving all the rest to me. Jon: As an old fan of T-Agents, did you ever ask Woody about that work? Dave: No, but one of the fun things about working with Wally at his studio was to watch him pencil the Cannon strips. When he drew Cannon, he penciled in the characters as T-Agents! In costume and everything! Cannon was penciled in as Dynamo, and Weed was in there… and when Wally went to ink them, he just inked business suits on the characters. Jon: [Laughs] These are the little know facts that make it all worthwhile, Dave! So Woody obviously had an enduring affection for the characters? Dave: Right, he did. Jon: When did you assist Murphy Anderson during all of this? Dave: I must have been working for Murphy at the same time I was helping out Woody. When I went to work for Murphy full-time, that was probably when I left the Shattuck strip. Jon: Where was Murphy’s studio? Dave: He had a studio next to the big New York Public Library, the one with the stone lions. Our studio window faced the park behind the library. Jon: Was it a haul to go out to Long Island?

Right: Splash page from Wally Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1. Art by Dave Cockrum.

novel was not in print anywhere in the world for a set period of time, rights returned to me. Later, I asked for it to be reprinted, they said no, and I got the rights back. Jon: Aardwolf Publishing eventually reprinted the complete series? Dave: Right. They finally published the “lost” fourth issue, the one that Lodestone didn’t publish. Jon: Do you feel that The Futurians suffered by being bounced between publishers and the lapse of time in between? Dave: Probably. I don’t know how well it sold for Lodestone, but I knew that they were having money problems from the get-go. Jon: Was there a connection in your mind that, at first, he was offering these excessive rates—as much as twice the going rate—just hemorrhaging cash, and that was the cause of subsequent difficulties? Dave: Probably. He said that he had a print broker backing him, that was where his money was coming from. He was having to wait for the proceeds of a given issue to come in before he could afford to print the next one. Jon: [laughs] So much for business acumen. Do you have any idea why The Futurians was published under the Lodestone imprint and not Deluxe Comics? Dave: He used whichever name he was using that month… one month he was Deluxe, the next Lodestone, and at one point, he considered using “D.C.,” but didn’t think he could get away with it. [laughter] Jon: Did you know Singer prior to doing business with him? Dave: No. It’s when he first approached me that I was introduced to him. Of course, I also did a couple of T-Agents stories in between The Futurians. Jon: So T-Agents and The Futurians were produced simultaneous. For that time frame, were you exclusive to Lodestone/Deluxe? Dave: Yes, but I really wasn’t fast enough to keep on doing all of that work in the time required… but I mostly got it done. Plus, in the one issue where we brought back Iron Maiden [WWTA #3], Singer

plotted it but I wound up scripting. I also wound up finishing George Pérez, because he was only able to do a few pages and I drew the rest of the story. Jon: Were you trying to emulate Pérez? Dave: I don’t know if I was or not. Jon: George told me you had little time to complete that job? Dave: Yeah. Jon: Was it fun to do T-Agents? Dave: Yes. These were characters that I loved. The splash page I did with NoMan walking down the street was a swipe of an issue of Captain Marvel I did (Marvel’s version). Jon: Was the first job for Singer that poster images of all the Agents? Dave: I think so. Jon: You had your old employer, Murphy Anderson, inking your pencils. Dave: Well, Murphy had inked be prior, on the first three “Legion” stories I did. (At least on the first one, editor Murray Boltinoff credited Murphy first, because he was afraid Murphy, being an old-timer, would be offended to be listed underneath a newcomer. But I was the penciler and Murphy was the inker. Jon: There’s a panel of Lightning reproduced from pencils…. Dave: David liked my pencils so much on that, he reproduced them directly. Jon: Would you like to return to the characters someday? Dave: Sure, yeah. I talked to John Carbonaro on this possibility by e-mail a couple of times, and he indicated that he wouldn’t mind if I contributed. This was back when DC was planning on doing an ongoing series. (I gather that whatever they were going to do wasn’t very good.) All of that fell through. Jon: In one story you did, there’s a character with glasses and big hair. Is that a caricature of Dave Singer? Dave: No, that’s supposed to be Singer’s accountant…. I didn’t know what that guy really looked like; I just drew what I thought an accountant would look like. [laughter] The title for the “next issue”

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Steve Englehart

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Left: Panel from Wally Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1. Art by Dave Cockrum.

Steve: They asked. Jon: By most accounts, Singer was… ummm… a flamboyant character. What were your dealings with him and what’s your opinion of the man and his comics line? Steve: Singer was obviously not reliable, on any level. You always felt he had a hidden agenda... and that turned out to be so. But he was pleasant enough, as I recall. Jon: How were the rates at Deluxe and how’d they compare with the rest of the industry? Steve: I don’t remember. I imagine I got my usual rate for the time. That may be one reason he decided to write the second issue himself. Jon: How did you come to get the assignment for the T-Agents story (as opposed to Raven, Lightning, etc.)? Did you choose the team segment of the book? Steve: That was what Singer offered me. I have a rep for doing team books, so it seemed like a sensible idea. Jon: Obviously, in short order, you were no longer writing for the company. What happened? Steve: Dunno. Singer just called up and said he wanted to write the second one himself. Jon: John Workman mentioned that Singer had a compulsion to rewrite the material. Did that happen in your case? Steve: It didn’t happen on my first and only issue. Maybe that’s Stephen K. Englehart, was born on April 22, in Indianapolis, Indiana. why he wanted to write the second one himself. Raised in his native city and Louisville, Kentucky, he later earned a BA Jon: The second issue features your plotting. Did you read the in Psychology at Wesleyan University. Steve has written a zillion published version and make any impressions of Singer’s interpretation? comics, first coming to prominence in the comics field in the early Steve: I’m sure I did read it at the time, but I haven’t looked at it 1970s. Some of his most renowned work appeared in Captain since. I naturally thought I could have done a better job! America, The Avengers, Doctor Strange, Detective Comics, Coyote, Jon: As far as you could see, what were the respective strengths and Scorpio Rose, and recently a reteaming with artists Marshall Rogers weaknesses of Deluxe Comics? and Terry Austin to produce a Batman mini-series. He has also worked Steve: They had good characters and they had good people in film (Batman, Nightman, Team Atlantis: Milo’s Return), video games doing them. Without all the internal problems, Deluxe should have (Tron 2.0, Hard’s Tale, Spider-Man, etc.), children’s books (Countdown succeeded. But the problems were obviously their weakness. to Flight, The DNAgers, etc.), and has written the adult novel, The I only know what I think is common knowledge: They didn't Point Man. He currently lives and works in California. Steve was really own the characters. So the whole basis for doing the book… interviewed by e-mail in June 2005. for the talent, it turned out to be bogus, but I have to believe that for Jon B. Cooke: Were you familiar with T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents in Singer, he knew it was bogus. And if he knew, he was operating the 1960s? knowing that he might be brought down at any moment. That can't Steve Englehart: Yes. I liked the original series and went out lead to stability. of my way to collect it, since it was badly distributed. Jon: Any idea of what became of David Singer? Jon: How were you approached for Deluxe Comics’ T-Agents revival? Steve: None.

blurb at the end of WWTA #3 was mine, by the way: “Well, I Guess I Am That Kind of Boy…” [laughter] Jon: Whatever happened to David Singer? Dave: All I know is that he shut down the company and disappeared. I have heard people mention his name in recent years, so I guess he’s around somewhere, but I have no idea. Jon: So was the overall Deluxe/ Lodestone experience negative? Dave: Financially, it was stressful. I didn’t get all the money I was promised, and half the time I delivered work, if he gave me a check, it would bounce. I would have to go back in and demand cash. It finally got to the point where I would come in with a finished story, but I wouldn’t let him have it until he handed me cash. That part of it was not fun, though doing The Futurians and T-Agents was fun. [chuckles] Jon: Did this teach you a lesson to be wary of start-up publishers with grandiose plans thereafter? Dave: Yes, it made me very wary. I tend now to be reluctant to trust people too much unless I know them really well. T-Agents work: ART: WW T-Agents #1-3.

Jon: Any interest, given the right conditions, in returning to the characters? Steve: Absolutely. As I say, I liked the characters from Day One, and getting a chance to do them was both a treat and a responsibility —and I like responsibilities. I would love to get the chance to really run with them—which is what I thought I had last time. Jon: Finally, what do you think of your work for Deluxe and, if you could, would there be anything you would do differently? Steve: I always liken the taking on of a new series to rolling a rock: First you’ve just got to get it moving, then it takes on its own momentum. It’s my job to make even that initial “here’s who the characters are, here’s what the situation is” bit interesting, but the real fun comes when we all know the characters and situation and we can go on a ride with them. So... no, I wouldn’t do anything differently, because I did what needed doing, but I never got to the “now let’s roll” part. My work for Deluxe is basically comicus interruptus. T-Agents work: SCRIPT: WW T-Agents #1, PLOT: WWTA #2

Keith Giffen Keith Giffen was born on Nov. 11, 1952, in Queens, New York, though he grew up in New Jersey, where Keith now resides. A selftaught artist, he broke into comics in the mid-’70s, freelancing for both DC and Marvel, notably on The Defenders and the revival of All-Star Comics, where young Giffen was inked by veteran Wallace Wood. But the 1980s proved a breakthrough decade for the artist, with a string of lauded titles to his credit (with a growing confidence in plotting stories), including “Doctor Fate,” Omega Men, Ambush Bug, Legion of Super-Heroes, “Lightning,” and—as plotter and breakdown artist with writer J.M. Dematteis and artist Kevin Maguire—an innovative revamp of DC’s Justice League by the decade’s close. The ’90s included forays as fullfledged writer/artist (Trencher, Heckler, Punx), the co-creation of Lobo, and lots of mainstream work, and Keith continues to devote his energies to funny books, up to the present day. (Perhaps history will also record that Keith coined the immortal phrase, “Bite Me, Fanboy!”) The creator was interviewed by phone in June 2005.

Jon B. Cooke: Did you read T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents as a kid? Keith Giffen: Oh, yes. I can still remember the day I got the first issue of T-Agents when it came out. I’d had a particularly grisly visit to the dentist and remember coming out of there, mouth swollen, nauseous and whacked on nitrous oxide. My dentist was a sadistic bastard. My mother felt so bad she took me down to this sweet shop/newsstand (remember when they used to be really common?) to treat me to a comic book. I went in and there it was, T-Agents #1! It was bigger than the other comic books and even though I didn’t know Wally Wood from a hole in the wall, there was something about the cover and the art inside that I responded to. It got my attention the way the old Marvels did. So I picked it up but finding the following issues became a real chore. T-Agents never appeared in the same store twice in a row. It was really frustrating. I got #1, missed #2, got #3… I thought it was cancelled with #6. Then the Dynamo and NoMan titles started showing up and I’d have to hunt them down. I’m one of the few people who, as a kid, loved “The Raven” by Manny Stallman. But then, as a kid, I thought Gene Colan was the King, not Kirby. I was a real fan. I still remember how pissed off I got when Jack Kirby stepped in to draw an Iron Man/Sub-Mariner fight [Tales of Suspense #80, Aug. ’66]. Jon: How did you hear about the T-Agents revival? Keith: I believe at that time I was just coming off Legion of SuperHeroes. It was one of those periods when I was really doing good at DC. Deluxe approached me and announced they were going to do a T-Agents book. I think George Pérez might have already signed on. I seem to remember George and Dave Cockrum being the selling points: “They’re on board? Count me in!” But Singer probably told them, “Keith’s on board!” and tried me out as a selling point. Regardless, they approached about contributing, offered an inflated page rate and from then on it was the path of least resistance. Jon: Was the page rate significantly higher, comparative to DC and Marvel? Keith: I don’t remember the exact rate but I remember it was substantial enough to make Lightning look good and I only vaguely remembered the character as one of the lamer T-Agents. I wish I could say I came to T-Agents out of a love for the characters—and I did kinda, sorta like reading about

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it’s just me and the blank page and away we go. Then I read the dialogue to find out who (I already know what) the characters are. J. Marc DeMatteis was very instrumental in telling me who the Justice League characters were. From then on it’s a homogenous mix. Tom and Mary were telling me who Lightning was. It’s almost like a game of creative hot potato. Keep passing it back and forth…. Jon: Is it to challenge each other? Keith: Yes, in a good-natured way. Challenging and trying to impress one another. I come up with a plot point that makes them go, “Oh, wow,” then they drop in a line of dialogue that opens up possibilities I’d never considered…. I didn’t give J’onn J’onzz [Martian Manhunter] an Oreo addiction. I read Marc’s dialogue and went, “Oh! How cool is this?” and ran with it. That, to me, is the perfect collaboration. Jon: You had obviously worked Marvel style prior to that with The Defenders? Keith: And some DC stuff, most notably Ambush Bug. Not many people realize that on Ambush Bug, I would draw the issues, hand them to Bob Fleming and leave the room. I wouldn’t even tell him what they were about. He’d call me up and go, “Uh, Keith, why is he being chased by elephants on page 13?” And I’d go, “I felt like drawing elephants.” Okay… the Bug was a bit extreme. With T-Agents, it was a bit more civilized. T&M would get the pages and I’d call and talk over what I was thinking, the direction I was taking the story. Then it was theirs. As long as we got from point A to point B, I didn’t care how we got there. They’ve got a real ear for dialogue… really good clean work. That they’re not still in comics, on that Wizard Top Ten, astonishes me. They were solid writers from the get-go. They still are. Jon: How would you characterize your Lightning? Keith: He was a guy doing the right thing, knowing that the cost was always going to be too great. Every time he used his powers he’d take time off his life. Putting on the costume was a form of slow suicide but there are certain things that can only be done by the guy wearing the costume, so he does the right thing, even though he’s sacrificing himself. That’s a hero. Kind of like Spider-Man. Peter Parker can’t get a date, he’s bullied in school, Aunt May’s sick, Uncle Ben died because of a bad choice, no job, Pete can’t buy Aunt May’s medicine, life is picking on him, yet he still puts on the Spider-Man costume because it’s the “Right Thing to Do.” That was what I was trying to get across in “Lightning,” in a whiny, self-centered kind of way.

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Left: Detail from “And What a Time It Was,” Wally Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #2. Art by Keith Giffen (pencils) & Rick Bryant (inks).

them—but that was as a kid. As an adult? Zero interest. Jon: The Deluxe Comics had high-quality art that was certainly reminiscent of the original run. Keith: Yes, very much so. The first two or three issues in particular were just “can-do-no-wrong” books. (But did you see the assh*le they had drawing “Lightning”? What was that all about? How’d he get past security?) Yeah, the two major selling points were the caliber of talent involved and the rates offered. I really do wish I could say it was a labor of love and I’d always wanted to do Lightning, but it was closer to, “Lightning looks like a he doesn’t suck out loud and it’s a pretty decent assignment so….” I went into it thinking, “What’s the harm? It’s just a short story.” But I do remember testing Singer’s sincerity by requesting Tom and Mary Bierbaum as the writers. Jon: Did you know them from Legion? Keith: No, this was before they wrote Legion (The fact they had written “Lightning” later made them more attractive to [future LSH editor] Mark Waid). I don’t recall exactly how it all came together… I guess I was going to plot it and I know, at that point, I wasn’t confident enough to dialogue… I can only assume it’s the way most things happen with me; I blurt something out and someone takes it seriously and I wind up backtracking to find out just what I’ve gotten myself into (That’s how I got Invasion). Anyway, the Bierbaums came on board and, from their first line, they just nailed it. They added most of the heart to the stories. Jon: How did you know of Tom and Mary’s work? Keith: Through a Legion fandom APA [Amateur Press Alliance], Interlac. When you’re doing the LSH, Legion fandom is in your life. Period. I knew them through that, had read enough of their writing to be impressed and “Lightning” happened. Jon: Was it a full script that you received or Marvel style plot? Keith: I’d draw it like a silent movie and hope they could figure out what was going on. It was close to Marvel style. We’d talk over the plot but they had no real control over story direction (T&M would never have hung that little girl whereas I tend to skew dark). When I work this way I, pretty much, bull my way through. I’m always open to collaborative input and a lot of times these talks will generate a major plot point, but in the end

Right: Panels from “101 Things To Do With a Dead President,” Wally Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #4. Art by Keith Giffen (pencils) & Rick Bryant (inks).

Jon: How do you evaluate the final results of your run? Keith: I can never make peace with my work. I look back on it and go, “Tom and Mary saved my ass!” Jon: What was your experience working with Dave Singer? Keith: No comment. Jon: You were on it for a number of issues, though, so was it an okay situation for a period of time? Keith: It was okay for a short period of time. It got dicey; it got bad. Do I carry personal animosity for the man? No. Those first few T-Agents stand as, arguably, some of the best comics produced at that time. Jon: Did you intend to continue the series? Did you have a story to tell? Keith: Had things not gotten murky, I would have stuck around. I would have liked to have finished the story, seen where the characters were heading. But it wasn’t meant to be. Jon: Can you recall what some of your intentions were? Keith: We were going to kill him then set up a macabre situation, re: the suit. “We have this costume in the other room that’s a death sentence. Who’s crazy enough to put it on?” You’re asking for a real memory stretch here. I seem to recall that was the intention. I do know for a fact we were going to kill him. Jon: Was Lightning a Flash knockoff? Keith: Sure was. Anyone who runs super-fast is a Flash knockoff. Period. Just like anyone who puts on a dark suit and prowls in the night is a Batman knockoff. Caped and flying? Superman knockoff. There’s a handful of iconic characters that we’re constantly returning to. Jon: Why “Lightning”? Keith: Because that’s what I was offered. I think I also did a Menthor story and that went over like a lead balloon. When I was a kid, I really liked Menthor. I thought he looked cool. Then Deluxe made him a chick and it didn’t work for me. Jon: What was your experience on March Hare, your creator-owned one-shot published by Lodestone, Singer’s other imprint? Keith: March Hare was a balls-up. Nothing came out the way it should have. It was the Murphy's Law of comic books. Jon: The Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide lists a Deluxe comic, Tales of T.H.U.N.D.E.R., citing it contains Giffen art. (By virtually everyone’s reckoning, that title was never printed.) Keith: Never heard of Tales of T.H.U.N.D.E.R.

Jon: Did you pick Rick Bryant to ink your stuff? Keith: Yes. Rick understood what I was trying to do. He was a good solid guy who made deadlines. Rick’s one of the good guys. I haven’t talked to him for years but I remember Rick as definitely being one of the good guys. He cared about the penciler’s approach, honored the penciler’s style. Rick enhanced without overwhelming. I can only assume he’s still out there. Jon: Yes, he is. I just talked to him yesterday. Keith: He’s such a good inker, he’s probably having difficulty getting work. That’s the biz. If you can do a monthly book and stay consistent quality wise and make those deadlines… no sweetheart deal for you. Disappoint the fans month in and month out and reap the reward! Jon: I don’t think Rick’s doing much comics work, if any. Keith: Oh, God bless him, he got out. Good. Whenever somebody gets out, I think, “Yes! There’s hope! Hope!” Name one person who has made his career solely in comic books and walked out at the tail end of it enriched for the work. I’m talking about the Curt Swan career artist. Jon: Including the creator of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. Keith: Yeah…. Jon: Did you know Woody at all? Keith: Yes, I did. My first comic book gig at DC was doing layouts under Wally Wood’s art on All-Star Comics [#60-63, 65, June ’76-Apr. ’77]. Of course back then I was then too stupid to realize I was working with a master. Sit at his knee and learn? Oh, no! I knew it all! What an assh*le. I really came into the comic book business with a chip on my shoulder. I didn’t deserve half of the breaks I got. I certainly wouldn’t have hired myself. That’s probably why I had to take a little time between my two comic book iterations: the screwed up one that brought me “Woodgod” and all that crap and the more mature one that netted me “Doctor Fate,” Legion of Super-Heroes, and so on. Between the two iterations, I swear to God, I sold Kirby vacuum cleaners door-to-door. Jon: Kirby vacuum cleaners? Keith: Yes, Kirby vacuum cleaners. Jon: From swiping Kirby to Kirby suction? [laughs] Keith: Yup. How sad is that? Kirby vacuums, door-to-door. “Die-cast aluminum.” The frightening thing was, I was good at it. I think that’s

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Jerry Ordway Jeremiah Ordway was born on November 27, 1957, in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Jerry calls his graphic novel The Power of Shazam! and The Messenger, a creator-owned project done through Image Comics, among his favorite work. The artist currently lives in Easton, Connecticut, where he is working on a five-issue mini-series featuring the Alan Moore/Gene Ha characters from Top Ten, with writer Paul DeFilippo. Jon B. Cooke: Were you exposed to the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents in the ’60s, Jerry? Jerry Ordway: Yeah, back in the days of newsstands. Our major outlet, where we used to get most of our Marvels, was downtown in Milwaukee. I never saw T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents there, which I’m sure was why they probably didn’t survive. [laughs] But we did find the comic on spinner racks in drugstores. In those days, readers would have to go to multiple outlets, in search of titles that were not from the top publishers (like DC and Marvel). T-Agents were also 25¢ each, a big bite for a time when comics were 12¢. That was a lot to pony up to buy a book, but I thought the Wally Wood covers really stood out, so they were worth the extra dough. Jon: Were the Tower Comics discernably different? I assume you were also buying DC and Marvel at the time. Jerry: I didn’t start actively collecting until the Summer of ’67, and then I was only buying Marvels. But I do remember picking up an issue of T-Agents. The cover just jumped out at me. I’m sure that was the moment I began my Wally Jon: Was that your first memory of Wood’s work? Jerry: It’s really hard to pin it down. I just remember it stood out. I would say my first concrete “Wow! Wally Wood is terrific!” moment was when I picked up Captain Action, because I was a big fan of that toy. When I saw Wood had done the pencils and inks on the first issue, it was, “It’s my favorite artist drawing the adventures of my favorite toy!”

At that point I certainly went and sought out more of his work. Wood was a solid draftsman, but he always had that cool lighting effect—double-lighting and all that—and I was just amazed by his art. Jon: While I wouldn’t immediately say that you two have similar styles necessarily, there’s something about your work that reminds me of Wood. Was he an influence on you? Jerry: Oh, yes. After Captain Action #1, I started spotting his work everywhere, though I probably had been exposed earlier without even realizing it. Regarding Wood’s influence, my style is probably a couple of generations removed, and I was probably influenced by the artists who were influenced by him. Once I started really collecting Wood, I wound up following a thread back to him. Then I realized a thread from Wally Wood back to Hal Foster and Alex Raymond. So if there’s any real stylistic approach now, it probably comes from that Alex Raymond/ Hal Foster school, Woody’s roots. Jon: Did you ever meet Woody? Jerry: No, but I certainly picked up his fanzine, witzend, in the ’70s, but the closest I ever really got to Wood was having a casual friendship with [former Wood collaborator] Joe Orlando and others who had worked with Wood. I’d always hear Wood stories; Gil Kane had them, as did Mike Zeck, who worked as a Wood assistant, maybe the last one, when he moved up to Connecticut from Florida. Jon: Did you draw any T-Agents in your days before turning pro and in your early professional career? Jerry: I can’t remember doing anything, except that occasionally, back in the early ’80s, when I was doing convention sketches, I had requests for them. I think I did a couple of Dynamo shots. My first professional experience with the characters was when I did a Lightning pin-up for the unauthorized Wally Wood’s T-Agents that David Singer published back in the mid-’80s. Then I wound up doing a 15-page story for WWTA #5, at the end of its run. But nothing since until I did a centerspread pin-up in Comic Book Artist [vol. 1, #14]. That was the first actual fun time I had. [Jon laughs] Jon: How did David Singer contact you? Did you know him at all? Jerry: No. Singer was calling everybody who had any kind of profile in comics around that time. He really worked hard to get me to do a story. I’m probably stupid in this way, but I’ve never responded to people calling me up and offering to throw tons of money at me, which is what he did. I ultimately wound up doing it out of love for the original material. That’s what it comes down to. But it was a bittersweet experience, because part of me held out until I felt convinced that Singer did have rights to the material (which was debated in the fan press, at the time). I’m no lawyer, but since he had published

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Left: Pin-up detail. Wally Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1. Art by Jerry Ordway.

what shook me up most of all. When I think back to the opportunities I had, the access I had to the best in the business… Wood, Toth, Ditko, Kubert, Kirby… and I blew it. Damn! T-Agents work: ART/PLOTTING: WW T-Agents #1-5.

Right: Page from “T.H.U.N.D.E.R. In the Moon,” Wally Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #5. Art by Jerry Ordway.

several issues by the time I came on, I thought, “Well, gee, Singer must have rights.” Initially I was a little leery of it, because I’d read all the controversy about whether or not he had the publishing rights and the copyrights and trademarks. Ultimately it was borne out that he did not, I guess. But that was my only connection. Jon: What was the experience of working on the story? Jerry: It was a little disappointing, actually, because by the time I was finally was on the hook, Deluxe Comics was on its way down the toilet as Singer was apparently losing lots of money. I could have gotten out at some point— and I would have—but I had already given my word. So it wasn’t really that much fun. Roger McKenzie wrote the story I worked on, and I met him several times back around that era. He was a nice guy, but I didn’t really feel any emotional commitment beyond just trying to bring a little bit of Wally Wood to the stuff. Two years ago, DC was going to publish the New T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents series, and (maybe because my name came up as somebody who might placate John Carbonaro) I had been contacted about doing a Lost Annual that would contain new material, but be set in that era of the original series. It was to be a single, stand-alone 48-page annual. I had a bunch of ideas, and it was really an exciting prospect, but that never happened, due to legal problems between DC and John Carbonaro. I would have sunk my teeth into that. As you get older, you either love your favorite material more and more, or you turn your nose up, but I still like that stuff a lot! Jon: Can you give us an idea of what your intentions were with the Lost Annual? Jerry: I had an idea—and again, it didn’t get any further than just one or two conversations with [intended New T-Agents editor] Dan DiDio—to take the concept that originally existed, of a top-secret, James Bond-type of organization, and I wanted to have fun doing a story similar to Captain America being thawed out of ice, where you show these guys as being anachronistic, totally out of their time. So I’d update them, like showing what 007 would be like in today’s PC

world. These guys really couldn’t be very effective; they would clearly be somewhat sexist, and patriotic in a blind way. I just thought it would have been cool to play with the fact that they were from a different time, a completely different era. I wouldn’t have played it as parody, but more just as a way of showing how these two worlds are very dissimilar: The ’60s you and I grew up during and whatever age we’re living in now. Jon: Did it ever get beyond the talking stage? Jerry: No. I was out of the loop. I agreed to do it, but then never heard anything else about it. Through some parties who knew John Carbonaro, I learned that apparently he wasn’t happy with what DC was going to do with the T-Agents revamp, so I guess he was able to somehow pull the plug. I don’t know if properties like T-Agents and Captain Action have an audience big enough to be successful. In some ways, it’s better off not reviving things like that, so that you can at least retain good memories of the old stuff, and not feel like they’re being compromised by being dragged into whatever the current comic world is. Everybody tries to reinvent these characters. In some respects, you can’t take a character like Superman and reinvent him, necessarily. Superman is established, and if you play against the concept of him as a good guy, he becomes a really, really scary guy. [laughs] There’s a lot to be said for these concepts not being tinkered with or updated too much. I think that’s always a problem in comics. You take a Kirby concept, try to make it work for the present day, and you wind up hurting the original concept, or at least not paying tribute to it. You might as well rename your ideas and have it be something new. Jon: Were you hoping to draw the annual? Jerry: Yes, I was asked to write and draw it. Jon: Why did Mike Machlan pencil the cover of WWTA #5? Jerry: Mike and I were sharing a studio at the time, and I think I was in one of those situations where I agreed to do something, but by the time the deadline finally comes around, I had four other things that I had agreed to do, and everybody wants everything at the same time.

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George Pérez George Pérez was born on June 9, 1954, in the Bronx, New York. Entirely self-taught in regards to art, George’s first gig in comic books was as assistant to Rich Buckler—with G.P.’s first credit appearing in Astonishing Tales #25, Aug. ’74—and he was soon penciling his own stories, mostly for Marvel in the 1970s. After stints on The Inhumans, Fantastic Four, Logan’s Run, and The Avengers, he moved over to DC,

and George became an immediate fan-favorite with his and Marv Wolfman’s revitalization of Teen Titans. The team followed up with two mini-series, Crisis on Infinite Earths and accompanying History of the DC Universe, before George took over Wonder Woman for a memorable relaunch as both writer and artist. The creator continues to cast a long shadow in the industry as one of its top guns, recently signing an exclusive contract with DC Comics. This phone interview was conducted on June 22, 2005. Jon B. Cooke: Were you familiar with T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents as a youngster? George Pérez: Not as an on-going series or as a firsttime reader. By the time I initially became aware of them it was more in a historical context because, by then, it had ceased publication. It had a rather mythic reputation, and I had heard about it through books by Steranko and Don Thompson and then realized who the T-Agents were. And, of course, anyone who had talked about Wally Wood refers to T-Agents, which was high on his résumé. The big thing I knew of the comic book was, of course, the death of Menthor—when they actually kill off a T-Agent!—and pretty graphically for a comic in those days, just gunning the guy down. Jon: Were you a fan of Woody’s work when you were young? George: Oh, yes! Because of my age, the first thing by Wood that I was exposed to was his Daredevil. Stan Lee even had Wood’s name mentioned on the covers the artist was drawing, very unheard of at the time, and it meant to me that this artist had to be quite special. The first issue that really impacted me was the Daredevil/Sub-Mariner story [#7, April ’65], the same issue when DD’s new costume was introduced. There was something so pristine about Wally’s work. As I got older, I was exposed to some of the seminal work he had done for EC and Mad, and I really began to appreciate the work of Wally Wood. Jon: Would you rank Wood as one of your influences? George: Not necessarily as one of my influences. I think his drawing style tends to be much more… actually, no, let me take that back. In some of the technical background that I do, every time I draw a cylindrical corridor of robotics or machinery, my work does harken back to some of those great circular corridors that Wood did in the EC days. But as far as figure work, not really, because he was a much more staid, elegant artist than I was. I was much more influenced by the bombastic stuff, like Kirby and Buscema (although another influence was Curt Swan, a more sedate artist as well… so it bounced back and forth). Even though Wood wasn’t a primary influence, I’m sure there was a hidden influence in there that’s subtle

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Left: Illustration by George Pérez.

I knew that Mike was a big fan of T-Agents and he had a different sensibility than I did—he’s definitely more rooted in Ditko, Kirby, Gil Kane than I was—so I thought it might be kind of like me playing Wally Wood to Steve Ditko, in a way. I just wanted that approach. Jon: The coloring on that was different from the typical four-color process seen in previous issues of WWTA. Jerry: That was one of their initial selling points when Singer was trying to get me to do work for Deluxe. He pitched me that they weren’t going to have the crappy traditional dot-printed color, but full-process coloring, and all that. They did pretty much what Valiant later did, coloring a reduced stats or blue-lines, and then shot it as full-process color. I had no involvement with it. Once those pages leave my studio, in most cases, I have no control over what happens to them, unless I’m coloring them myself…. No one wants to give you too much to do, because they know that you might blow more than one deadline. Jon: Would you still like to return to the characters one day? Jerry: Oh, yes! It could be fun, you know? You get the same feeling as when you watch an old episode of the original Star Trek series, because there’s something fun about watching the way beloved characters strut around. Shatner always with his conquests as Captain Kirk… whatever world they’re on, the alien babe is very human-like, and he always winds up having some romantic affair with her. That’s what I was thinking with the Annual, and I still think it would be a funny way of doing it. Not an Austin Powers parody, but a little more “with a wink and a nod,” with a little humor mixed in with the spy thing. I still think that would work. I like the idea of a UN police force as a super-hero team. I think that would be fun, without them being the Global Guardians or something. You’d just have it limited to a few characters sent out on missions. I mean, jeez, the world is a pretty scary place; there’s plenty enough bad guys out there! T-Agents work: ART: WW T-Agents #1, 5.

Below: Cover detail, Wally Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1. Art by George Pérez.

and affects me in ways I’m not even aware of. Wood’s use of lighting, in some cases, must have been a subtle influence. Jon: Did you know David Singer? George: Yes. He actually put out a fanzine, at one point, called The Comic Times, and Dave asked me to do a cover featuring The Teen Titans. (This was when the TT premiered.) That was the first time I was ever aware of Dave Singer, and he kept me in mind when he started Deluxe Comics. That was the next time I heard from him. Jon: What did you hear from David? George: He offered me oodles of money to work on T-Agents and he requested that I do the covers, as well as one of the series. So I ended up getting “The Raven” strip (even though I wasn’t even familiar with The Raven character by the time I got it). I always liked the idea that whenever somebody thinks of team books, they always think of me in regards to trying to get my interpretation, by at least getting me to do some covers. So this assignment would have added T-Agents into my repertoire of team books that I handled at one time or another. (And, quite truthfully, the money at the beginning was quite good.) I think the biggest problem proved was that I did not grow up with T-Agents, and I didn’t have that same fondness that other people had. I probably didn’t commit my time and energy as well as I could have. And I also think that Dave realized that whenever DC or Marvel came up with an offer to have me draw something from their line-ups of characters, I would always wind up going over there, even though they would wind up paying me less than Dave would, because those were the characters I grew up with. Jon: So how did you end up with “The Raven”?

George: That was just the strip that Dave decided to give me. Jon: Even though you’re one of the few super-hero comic book artists in history who actually enjoys drawing team books? [chuckles] George: Right! So it was unusual that I got a single character; it was just the strip that Dave decided to give me. The one nice thing about it, in arranging the story with [writer] Dann Thomas, was the idea of using belly-dancing. My wife, Carol Flynn, was very heavily into the belly-dancing scene, and Phoenicia was her dance name, so she became the belly-dancing assassin in “The Raven.” [laughter] Jon: The character was specifically created because your wife was a belly-dancer? George: Exactly. Dann did know about my wife’s belly-dancing career and it gave me something nice to do. It’s one of the few pages of artwork that I’ve kept and still own… well, of course, my wife has that one! [laughter] It is the introduction of her as a character…. Jon: Is it true you drew the character using Carol as a model? George: Oh, yes! There was a pin-up of Phoenicia by someone else and I remember looking at it and thinking it was unusual, “God, that doesn’t look like my wife at all!” [laughter] You’ll see that in the first couple of pages in the first story, the villainess bore a much stronger resemblance to Carol than in subsequent pages. That was due to an over-commitment with other work, so I couldn’t finish penciling and inking the entire story. So Dave Cockrum finished that first issue so it went slightly off-model. Dave didn’t have Carol right in front of him to be able to get the face as correct, but he also had an advantage because Paty, Dave’s wife, was also into belly-dancing at the time. [laughter] Jon: So the faces started having a resemblance to Paty? [laughter]

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Left: Menthora’s head (drawn by Pérez) was replaced with T-Agent China’s head (by artist unknown)on the cover of WWTA #3.

know why Menthor was separate from the others…. But particularly because Dave Singer himself was a lawyer, I’m surprised all of this went down like it did. Jon: Did you know David personally? George: Just through the working relationship. Dave did try to create a humble, personal relationship, but I felt that the personal relationship he was trying to develop was based on him getting on my good side so he could get work from me. He reminded more of a used car salesman than a lawyer. [chuckles] I didn’t think of him as an actual friend…. Jon: Well, it is comics, George. [laughter] George: He knew that I was straddling the fence many times so, of course, he had to be ultra-friendly to convince me to stay on. He could see that I was losing interest in “The Raven,” no matter how much money Dave was throwing at me. It didn’t become a question of money; it became a question of me not doing my best work and I was missing deadlines because I couldn’t get into it, and I was also being overworked… also because I wasn’t turning out other work. Jon: If you’re not particularly into a job, it actually slows you down? George: Yes, due to the fact that I really enjoy the creative process of storytelling, so when I can’t get my hands around a character, I can’t tell the story well. That happened with I•Bots [Tekno, ’95-’96], as well, and to some degree, even Ultraforce [Malibu, ’94-’95]. If I’m not as familiar with a character, it takes me a while to get into it, and Raven wasn’t that struck my fancy in T-Agents. Now, had I been doing Dynamo—much more a Superman-type character—maybe that would have sparked my interest more, or if I had been doing an actual book starring the entire team. One of the greatest advantages of doing a team book is that if I do get tired of a character, there are plenty others to draw, and that gets me through. I didn’t like every Avenger I drew, but there were enough of the ones that I did like drawing, which allowed me to keep my interest up in the book. But I find that when I’m losing interest, it’s very hard to get through the pages. So after a while, I was just doing layouts on the book, just to make sure they met the deadlines, but when I’m just doing layouts, I’m not taking the time to think and appreciate the

Left: Compare the second head from top left on the back cover of Wally Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #2 (left) and #3. Art by George Pérez.

George: I remember that Paty was critical about one aspect, with which I totally agree, was that when Dann wrote the script and added the sound effects, the zills (those finger cymbals used by Middle Eastern dancers) in the story made a “klak-klak-klak” noise, like they were castanets, and Paty was chagrined by that, saying, “That’s not how zills sound!” [laughter] Jon: What was overall experience on “The Raven”? Was it rushed? George: It just was not as personal for me. The biggest problem at the time was that so much of my time was committed with the major companies. This was during the years when not only Deluxe was emerging, but so many other publishers, as well. And so many of them were offering a lot of money, and Deluxe was no exception. But, again, it just wasn’t as creatively fulfilling as the Marvel and DC work, because I just was not as interested or didn’t know enough about them. I usually work from the inside out with characters I’ve been familiar with since being a child. Particularly with a more obscure character like Raven, I had no idea who this guy was, so I couldn’t get my hands on him figuratively, so I wasn’t as interested. Now I would’ve liked to have done a series with Iron Maiden because I thought she looked original, and I didn’t care what her character was about; I just thought she’d be good to draw. But Raven was what I was given, and I don’t think the series ever really clicked for me. Then, of course, when questions started arising whether Dave actually had the authority to even do that book, it was just as well I wasn’t that heavily involved and it made it easier for me to basically just walk away. Jon: On the back cover of WWTA #2, there’s what will be the cover for #3, and it features a head shot of Menthora. On WWTA #3, it is altered, with an Asian character taking her place. George: And it wasn’t even drawn by me. At that point, issues of ownership were coming into play, and I don’t even know how that related to the female Menthor character, because all the concerns about copyrights and the legalese was totally out of my control or interest. But I knew it had something to do with whatever the questions were towards the rights to certain characters… I don’t

Right: Panel detail of Phoenicia from “The Raven,” Wally Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1. Art by George Pérez & Dave Cockrum.

work that I’m doing. And it’s not the fault of Dann, but I just think “The Raven” was probably the wrong choice for me in regards to T-Agents. Now, whether I would have been approved deadline-wise, I don’t know, but if I had gotten the assignment to draw the group, I might have done a better job. Jon: Did you ever make that suggestion? George: When I was doing “The Raven,” at first, Dave was paying me a lot of money—and, at first, I was doing it for the money (that’s why I also did covers and the occasional pin-up)—but even by the time the second issue was coming out, there was already trouble in the wind regarding the right to even produce the book. So it didn’t seem worth following-up any further to do the team, because it was probably a moot point with the growing legal situation. Jon: Did John Carbonaro call you? George: No, he never contacted me. Jon: Did you see your inked pages for the first time when they were actually printed? George: I inked the first two pages of #1 myself, and the rest was inked by Dave Cockrum, so I did get to see them in the production stage. When I saw it printed… in those days, the paper stock used was very white, very pristine, but I think it made everything look a little garish. These were the days before computer coloring, which could have made it look a little more subtle. I look at even the cover I did and go,”Hmmm….” I probably had them colored a bit differently. (Even looking at my work, there was definitely weaknesses with my inking back then, which I’ve totally improved on now.) They were nice little show pieces… and I was happy to see Wally’s name on the book, another thing that was also a spur to put me on the project, to have Wally Wood’s name be an actual part of the title. But I did have another problem with a cover… there was one with Iron Maiden’s face slightly redrawn. Dave and I had disagreements there. I said, “If you want me to draw the character’s faces, than it’s my faces that should stay there.” (I had gotten beyond the point, in my career, to let any art director have my art redrawn by someone else.) So that definitely was the cause of a chagrin on my part. Jon: And that cover was the last thing you did for Deluxe? George: Yes, it was. Jon: How was it working for Dann Thomas? George: It was great! I’ve known Dann for a number of years, but it was the only time we got to work together. (I don’t even know how much work she had done up to that point solo.) It was nice because I know that she was catering some of the material for me. But, through no fault of Dann, the character just never took off for me. Jon: What kind of guy was Dave Singer? An ingratiating fellow… ? George: Well, he was ingratiating with a touch of used-car salesman. You felt that he was always “on.” (I’ve known a lot of people who are always “on,” and they end up being very nice people.) In the case of Dave—and I have no personal animosity towards him—the only question was whether this was an ethical thing that he did, producing the book… and, in many cases, there were artists who had to struggle to get their artwork returned.

I was very grateful to Keith Giffen for getting my artwork back. Not having any emotional attachment to the artwork, I wasn’t really worried, and I was willing to just cut my losses rather than be caught in any legal haranguing. But Keith had gone into Dave Singer’s office, saw my artwork on a table, just picked it up and said, “I’m taking this to George Pérez, so try and stop me.” [chuckles] I’m grateful to Keith for getting me whatever artwork I did finally get back from Deluxe. Jon: Skinny little Keith Giffen has a pair, eh? [laughs] George: Anyone who know Keith knows that he’s a… feisty character, and tenacious. Jon: Have you ever had the inclination to return to the characters? George: Oddly enough, because of the time that’s passed—and because I don’t think I did a deserving job on it—I would love to take at least one crack… but now that I’m exclusive to DC Comics, it’s moot… (unless DC decides to print it!) I would love to do a story with the entire cast, not just a single character, just to get them out of my system. (I told DC that it’s a big crime that I’ve never drawn The Legion of Super-Heroes—other than being in Crisis— and with my reputation, I’ve done T-Agents but not the Legion?) [laughter] Jon: You cover for WWTA #3 was a classic super-hero cover… George: Well, it was fun but I wouldn’t call it a classic, by any stretch of the imagination. It served its purpose. If I had drawn Lois and Clark doing the same thing, that would seem more a classic cover. I think it’s probably more of a classic to those who know the characters, seeing Dynamo and Iron Maiden in that clinch (granted she’s holding a weapon!) [laughter] It’s a nice cover, but I’ve done so many covers, it doesn’t really stand out in my mind… I haven’t been asked to re-create that one. Of the covers I did for Deluxe, my favorite was the first one. It’s a group shot and… I should have probably done a little more in the

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background just because that orange sky they used—I drew it thinking of a night sky—was a little brighter than I had anticipated. [laughter] Jon: I saw on some index of your work that you’re listed as illustrator on a T-Agents role playing game. Do you recall that? George: If it had any of my artwork, it would have been pick-up art [reproduced from work specifically done for the comics]. Jon: You were quoted in Comics Interview #50 [1987], in your interview conducted by Andy Mangels, saying you weren’t very happy with the inking on your pages. In retrospect, do you still feel that way? George: Dave did a credible job and Dan Adkins had to follow my incredibly loose pencils and there was nothing that he added, so I don’t think we worked well together. He probably was told he was getting full-pencils from me, but they were just layouts, so they just ended up looking like inked layouts. And I don’t think that Bill Wray and I were a good match either. The T-Agents doesn’t stand out as a high water mark in my career. I did it for the money—and I can say that about a lot of work—because, as tempting as the money can be, I can’t take a job if it’s only about that. I need to be interested. Had I read T-Agents as a kid and then Dave came in with his offer, I probably would have done a better job. The fact that I was aware of them as a historical footnote, as opposed to me having read them when they came out, probably didn’t help my attempt to bring them to any kind of glory.

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Left: Pin-up, Wally Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1. Art by Stan Drake.

Jon: Singer made an announcement about a Raven graphic novel by George Pérez? George: At that point, Dave was doing a lot of promoting, announcing stuff that wasn’t even in the germinal stage…. Jon: So he had not even discussed this with you? George: He would have probably just taken all my pages and called it a graphic novel, but if it was supposed to be an all-original graphic novel, he never talked to me about that. Jon: Do you recall another announcement, Tales of T.H.U.N.D.E.R.? George: I had heard about it but I just assumed he was going to reprint existing material, not anything new. It was during a time when a lot was announced before any commitments were made… and it got to the point where people weren’t getting paid. I think there was a lot of hope that, “Oh, let’s hope that the advance money [from the distributors] comes in, so we actually produce these books.” As opposed to having books ready. That’s my take. I saw my name attached to a lot of stuff that would make me say, ”Hey, nobody told me!” [laughter] Jon: Ahhh, hucksterism in comics! So there was nothing of yours left unpublished? George: No, everything I had done for Deluxe was printed. Jon: Y’know, it just seems odd to have George Pérez, one of the hottest fan-favorite artists at the time, not work on the team or on Dynamo, or even NoMan, but on a third-stringer like The Raven. Do you have any idea what Singer was thinking? George: I honestly don’t know. There were other artists who were going to be involved, who were much more interested in T-Agents than I, so it could have been a case of one of them wanting Dynamo. (I don’t know if anyone would have settled for Undersea Agent!) [laughter] Maybe it was just, “Give George ‘The Raven,’ because he doesn’t care one way or the other.” Jon: Hearing what a showman Dave was, it makes one wonder if he was holding back to build up anticipation for a big release for Wally Wood’s Dynamo #1… but, it begs the question, why not just come out with both guns blazing? George: And T-Agents probably should not have been an anthology book, given the popularity of team books at the time. Introduce them as a team and then split them up into individual titles… put Raven in as a back-up feature. It needed more of a team-book feel to it, to recapture what the cover implied. Who knows what Dave was thinking. Jon: Except for your misgivings about the inking, were you impressed with the books overall? There seemed a sense that they did recapture somewhat the quality of the Tower Comics. George: I was more impressed with everybody else’s work than I was with mine. Quite honestly, I thought that they did a better job because they had their heart in it more than I did. I think I did serviceable work, but I know the difference between that and inspired work. I did get some flattering and favorable comments about those issues, but they don’t have the same resonance personally for me. T-Agents work: ART: WW T-Agents #1-4.

David M. Singer David M. Singer in Comics Interview is cited to have been born “after World War Two” and apparently was from Brooklyn, New York. Unfortunately, little substantiated biographical information was found regarding the onetime publisher of Deluxe Comics. What is known includes the fact that David was a contributor to an early ’80s fanzine, The Comic Times (for which he interviewed, among others, future Deluxe Comics contributors George Pérez and Steve Englehart), and he tellingly wrote articles on the history of T-Agents for early issues of Amazing Heroes [#7-8, Dec. ’81-Feb. ’82], and worked for a period with John Carbonaro, a friendship that would deteriorate into adversarial relationship in a few short years, over a court battle regarding ownership of T-Agents. After losing the legal fight in ’87, David has apparently disappeared form the comics world. Below is an edited version of that same interview reprinted from Comics Interview #20 [Feb. ’85], appearing here with the kind permission of CI editor David Anthony Kraft and generous consent of interviewer Dwight Jon Zimmerman. ©’05 DAK. Dwight Jon Zimmerman: You appeared almost out of the void as far as many people are concerned. What were you doing before you got into comics? David M. Singer: Before I got into comics professionally, I spent about eight years working in the entertainment field—motion pictures, television, publishing, management, marketing, promotions, public relations. I worked with clients like RKO Pictures, 20TH CenturyFox, the American Film Institute, HBO. Because I was in contact with a lot of entertainment figures, I did a number of interviews and feature stories about them for national magazines and newspapers, I began to spend more and more time writing. Dwight: Then you began writing for comics? David: Then I got into comics, right. I’ve been a comic-book fanatic since I was three years old, and when I was about 12, I wrote some comic-book scripts and showed them to Archie Goodwin, who was working at DC at the time. Dwight: What was Archie’s reaction? David: Archie was very polite and considerate to me. And I’ve always thought wonderfully of him for that. There I was, just some kid off the street, and instead of showing me the door, he took time to look at my stuff. Dwight: When you got into comics professionally, who did you work for? David: I approached Archie Comics with a marketing proposal

designed to get their comics distributed through church groups and elementary schools. And I worked as their researcher and reference man for their Red Circle line. Unfortunately, both things fell through…. Dwight: How did Deluxe Comics come about? David: I was feeling very frustrated. I had spent a lot of time and money on a couple of other publishing ventures and had nothing to show for it due to problems with newsstand distributors. I decided I wanted to stay in the publishing field, so I temporarily cut down my company’s other activities, which were promotions, marketing and licensing. This time I planned to do something that didn’t need a newsstand contract. A newsstand contractor doesn’t want to touch you unless you’ve got a large line of products. And they’re not going to take just any new product because there’s a limited number of spots on the shelf for all the magazines published. If they’re going to bump something, it’s going to be you, the new kid on the block. So I decided to do comics in the direct sales market. My next decision was what type of comics to do. We did a study and it showed us that there really is no contest. Super-hero comics are what sell. Dwight: True, but not all super-hero titles sell well. David: Right. With that in mind, we considered what kind of characters we wanted to do. At first we thought we’d create new ones. As for how they should be handled, I decided I wanted to go first class, make them very mature, very realistic, and exciting. Dwight: That’s a good start. David: When it came to the characters themselves, I remembered that when I was a child, my favorite heroes were T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. The reason I liked them back then was because they were handled fairly realistically. They were, I think, the first series of books to really make an attempt at depicting true-life people. They were not just characters that fought a super-baddie and then went into the closet until the next issue of the series.

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Bottom left: Text page illustration, The Futurians #2 (also published by Singer). Art by Dave Cockrum.

How he was going to get the artists to go with him, I’ve never figured out. Regardless, he pulled out and started causing trouble. My investors then backed out because they weren’t sure what was going on…. Dwight: There has been a fair amount of discussion about the new printing processes and paper for comics, some people not being entirely pleased with this development. What were your reasons for going this expensive format route? David: Well. I think I answered that in my "publishorial" in the very first issue of WWTA. For the benefit of all of your readers who didn’t see it, let me say this: I like to do things with style. I went to high school in a suit and tie. And I wore five different suits a week. When I was doing public relations, I’d wear a boutonniere to work every day. When I go to someone’s house, I always have a bottle of wine, a house gift, or pastry. It takes an effort to remember to do these things and it costs money, but I like to have style. Anything I do has to have style. I’m publishing comic books now. They’ll be stylish comic books. My goal is to do a comic that a 28-year-old Wall Street stockbroker can take home on the 6:15 back to Connecticut and proudly read that instead of The Wall Street Journal and have no one look at him and think he’s retarded. My covers all look like paintings. The paper is a quality stock. George Pérez is doing beautiful covers. Most of our books are colored by airbrushing! Even most Baxter books are not airbrushed. Airbrushing is really the upper, upper tier. Dwight: When T-Agents first came about, the United Nations had a completely different political make-up than it does now. What’s going to happen to the organization now? David: T-Agents are going to leave the U.N. We felt that from the beginning, we had to do that for a very basic reason. In the 1960s, Red China was not in the U.N. And T.H.U.N.D.E.R. often fought agents from Red China. Well, in 1973, President Nixon threw us a curve. And Red China soon became a part of the United Nations and comic books have never been the same. So there really is no competition for the U.N. now, in terms of being a spy network. Who the heck are they spying on? Dwight: I have a bunch of rhetorical answers for that. [laughter] David: In terms of the U.N. charter, that is. We don’t want to have aliens coming in and attacking the world every issue, or dinosaurs being fought or people coming up from the depths of the earth, because all of that is just not realistic. We’re trying to create a relatively realistic series about nine-to-five Joes who punch a clock. Our standing joke at the office is that the typical T-Agent works a nine-to-fiver, or whatever his shift is, and at three minutes to 5:00 P.M., he suddenly sees this dinosaur rumbling the street. He looks at his watch, looks at his timecard and says, “Joe will be on in a few minutes. Let him

Left: Panel from “Work… Work… Work… Work… Work,” Wally Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #3. Art by Steve Ditko (pencils) & Greg Theakston (inks).

Dwight: Yet Tower was not able to make a go of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. David: Tower went under due to problems on the newsstand distribution scene, not because of sales. The characters went into limbo for many years. Then a gentleman by the name of John Carbonaro began publishing them in a black-&-white magazine, two four-color issues co-published with Archie Comics, and three reprint color issues of the original Tower stuff. John and I were friends at the time, we’re both from New York City, and John and I both knew that the characters were in the public domain because Tower neglected to put copyright, trademark or registration notices on their comics. John Carbonaro published T-Agents for a couple of years. He used mostly fan artists and new artists. The books, were not particularly well-received. Sales were low and Archie Comics decided to pull out of the partnership because they weren’t making any money an the deal. Carbonaro had no funding so his venture went into limbo. About six months later, after his last book had come out, I told him that I wanted to publish T-Agents. The world at large thought that he had exclusive rights to the characters because he had been putting copyrights and trademarks by JC Productions in his indicia. This he could do, but only in the sense of protecting his interpretations. The characters themselves were public domain. Dwight: What happened during that talk? David: Initially, I offered to “license” the characters from Carbonaro—actually, I first asked to buy the rights from him, but he didn’t want to sell. So I said, okay, even though I don’t have to, I’ll license them from you—that way you’re getting something from the characters and everyone will think I’ve got exclusive rights thus protecting my investment as well and it’ll make the whole venture a lot easier for me. We had an agreement. I went to work producing my comics. I originally was going to come out with the first issue in the Summer of 1984. But when John saw how successful I was, getting George Pérez, Keith Giffen, Steve Ditko, Dave Cockrum, and others to work for me, he suddenly decided to take back the “rights” and get those artists at the same time.

Right: Pin-up, Wally Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1. Art by Pat Broderick. Bottom right: Text page illustration, The Futurians #2. Art by Dave Cockrum.

handle it. I’m off-duty and there’s no overtime pay left for this year.” Dwight: Well, that creates an obvious conflict. The basic tenets of a super-hero is self-sacrifice for the betterment of society regardless of personal cost. T.H.U.N.D.E.R. sounds a lot more mercenary in that respect. David: These characters are not super-heroes. That’s something we want to make clear. We’re doing a super-hero motif in having extraordinary powers, costumes, and saving the world so that people who read comics solely to see someone punched out will have their gratification. But it is not a super-hero comic. It’s a comic about real people whose jobs are saving the world. Dwight: Okay, but like regular policemen, state troopers, and soldiers, even though they have a regular eighthour shift, they are actually on-call 24hours a day in case of emergencies. Will there be a similar thing with T-Agents? David: Well, let’s put it this way. There are people who work at T.H.U.N.D.E.R. who are really nice people, who enjoy [the organization] because they’re idealistic. They’re the type who’ll look at their watch at three minutes of five o’clock and say, “I don’t care what time it is, that’s a dinosaur!” And they’ll rush off to save the day. Then there are people who are doing it because it’s a job and they were fired as steelworkers and they couldn’t get another job. Somehow, they got a job with T.H.U.N.D.E.R. These are the people who will say, “It’s three minutes to five. I’ll help those three minutes. But then I’m leaving and going home.” Finally, there are the SOBs at T.H.U.N.D.E.R., who obviously T.H.U.N.D.E.R. doesn’t know about, who are double-agents. We are talking about a world-wide agency that takes its employees from 150 countries around the world. With tens of thousands of employees around the world, there’s got to be some bad eggs in there. Another thing that makes T-Agents different is that they will kill. You shoot at them, they’re going to shoot back. And it won’t be a warning shot or a shot in the leg. They’re going to shoot for the heart. Why? Because you shot at them and they’re empowered to shoot back. None of this “I shall not kill” business. None of this “I will take you to prison” stuff. Dwight: What you’ve just described is murder. David: No, what I’ve described is—I think it’s very wimpish to refuse to take a stand when something is good or bad. I think that giving food to the poor is good. I think that murdering a little five-yearold girl is bad. Someone who gives food to the poor is a good person and a hero, if one wants to give him such an appellation. One who kills a five-year-old girl is a bad person. Why is it that if I kill someone who is about

to kill a little girl before he can do it, it’s not a heroic action? Comic books, because of the [Comics Code Authority], created the concept that super-heroes do nothing that is not wonderful. If you go back to their roots in the ’30s and ’40s, you’d discover that Batman carried a gun and shot people and Superman dropped people to their deaths from the sky. It was done because there was no Code telling them they couldn’t do that. Dwight: You mentioned that George Pérez is doing your covers. There are stories floating around that some of the people who worked on #1 are no longer doing any work for you. Specifically Steve Englehart and George Pérez. What’s the story behind this? David: I’d love to know. George is under contract, Steve is under contract, Dann Thomas, Dave Cockrum, Keith Giffen, Steve Ditko, Steve Perry, and all the others are under contract. Steve Englehart is in #2. He is not with us after that. But that’s because Steve and I had a conversation. Steve had some things he was going to be doing, and we chose to have a mutual parting of the ways that was very amicable. George is with us for the long haul. Dwight: What other color comics will Deluxe be producing? David: Keith has come up with character that we affectionately call a cross between the Ambush Bug and The Texas Chainsaw Massacre: The March Hare. That should really make fans sit up and take notice. Unbeknownst to many fans, Keith writes—he just doesn’t do the actual dialogue. Essentially, he was the writer on the Legion of Super-Heroes run he did with Paul Levitz—Levitz as the dialoguer…. We’ve got a running joke in the office that we’ve done everything we can to make our books sell. We printed them on the best paper, we put the best color in them, we’ve hired the biggest names we can get, and we’ve got exciting characters. What more could we do to make them sell? We decided there were only two things we could do to make our comics sell better. Dwight: Only two?

Dann Thomas Dann Max Thomas was born on January 30, 1952, in Madison, Wisconsin, and raised in Southern California. She attended the University of California in Los Angeles and obtained a BA in Economics in ’74. In Dec. ‘03, she also earned a BA in Humanities. Prior to meeting now-husband Roy Thomas, she worked in the insurance industry. From the late ’70s through the mid-’90s, Dann collaborated with Roy on hundreds of stories, primarily DC titles, including All-Star Squadron, Secret Origins, Jonni Thunder, Arak, Infinity Inc., Doctor Strange, and West Coast Avengers. (For Arak and Infinity, she researched, co-plotted, and wrote first draft dialogue and captions.) Dann said, “Now, I only vary rarely contribute plot ideas to Roy… no writing whatsoever… though we did sell a screenplay we’d co-written

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Left: Cover, Comics Interview #20. Art by Keith Giffen. C.I. © David Anthony Kraft.

approved by one DC editor. Then, after Don did all the work getting the project together, another DC editor was assigned to the project and he said, “It doesn’t have a gimmick. I want a gimmick.” Don doesn’t do gimmicks. Don writes messages. Don took his project to us. We bought it. Roger McKenzie called us up. He said he had heard we were an interesting company and could we use his services? We were thrilled. We had been looking for him for months and months and didn’t know how to get his phone number. We constantly get new material and we review it and let the people who produced it know: a) we’re not interested ; b) we’re interested but can’t do it at this time; or c) we’re interested and will do it at this time. The biggest thrill I’ve had so far was when I got a letter from Jerry Siegel, who co-created Superman, asking us if we could use his services. What I loved was the opening in his letter, which said that he was one of the co-creators of the character known as Superman, one of the best-selling characters in comic-book history. He wrote it in such a formal fashion—as if I was some 80-year-old publisher who didn’t know that my company published comic books and that I wouldn’t know who Jerry Siegel was and who Superman was. I had his letter framed over my desk. I just love that letter. T-Agents work: PUBLISHER, DELUXE COMICS. EDITING/SCRIPT/PLOTTING: WW T-Agents #1-5.

Left: Deluxe Comics logo.

David: Yes. One would be to put the name Marvel on the covers and second would be to put Marvel characters on the inside. Our lawyers told us not to try putting the name Marvel on our covers, so we did the next best thing: We went after Marvel characters that were available – Dave Cockrum’s Futurians. It was the most successful Marvel graphic novel they published, And it is one of the hottest topics of conversation at conventions. All everyone keeps asking Dave at conventions is, “When are you going to do a Futurians series?” Now we have the answer. Dave’s doing a Futurians series in the Spring of 1985 for us. It’s going to be a bi-monthly, 32-page Baxter comic. Dave will write, pencil, and ink it. His wife, Paty, will color it. John Workman will letter it. Actually, The Futurians are not exactly Marvel characters. They’re owned by Dave Cockrum. I should make that clear. We are also doing Tales of T.H.U.N.D.E.R.!, and a fourth, yet untitled book, by Keith Giffen. And we are considering publishing Evangeline. Obviously, being a company that’s only had two issues of one title out at the time of this interview, it probably sounds completely preposterous to talk in terms of wanting to catch DC or Marvel. But this isn’t an operation by a couple of kids out of a garage. We feel that if the fans like what we’re doing, and we’re around long enough and given the time to grow, these are reasonable goals. Dwight: Overall, do you feel you’re achieving your company goals? David: From an editorial, promotional, and marketing standpoint, we are achieving everything. The one thing we are not achieving is the sales we want. If we’d come out a year ago, I think for a lot less effort and money we would have been at 100,000. We published at a time of year that no one could anticipate would be this rough. Everyone in the industry is saying that money is tight, people aren’t buying as many posters and T-shirts as they used to, independents are not growing as quickly—you name it. It’s just a shame we came in at the wrong time. Dwight: That’s hindsight. David: Hindsight’s never wrong. Dwight: That’s about the only advantage it has. Okay, are you looking for more properties other than The Futurians? David: We are almost every day having writers and artists call us. Don McGregor had a story idea he had done for DC. It had been

Right: Splash page, Wally Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1. Art by George Pérez & Dave Cockrum.

several years ago.” Currently teaches economics part-time at a local college in South Carolina, where Dann lives with Roy, she confesses that she has more passion for economists Milton Friedman and Alan Greenspan than for Spider-Man and Green Lantern. This interview was conducted by e-mail on June 20, 2005. Jon B. Cooke: Had you been familiar with T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents prior to the Deluxe gig, Dann? Dann Thomas: No. I read the original run only after being approached by David Singer. Jon: How did the assignment from David Singer come about? Dann: David originally approached Roy with the assignment, but he had to decline David’s offer due to his exclusive contract with DC at the time. David knew I was co-writing with Roy and asked if I would be available. (No doubt he hoped to get Roy’s input indirectly by hiring me and, in fact, Roy did offer suggestions after reading the plots and dialogue… especially with regard to balloon placement.) Jon: What were your impressions of Dave? Dann: David was very generous, enthusiastic and invested himself emotionally in the project, as well as financially. He took Roy and me to dinner in Chinatown when we were in New York and, while we walked to the restaurant, he chided us for not appreciating the rich ambience of the district instead of keeping our eyes glued to the pavement and talking non-stop comics. (I think we also disappointed him by not accepting his generous offer of Barry Manilow concert tickets.) Jon: How did you go about preparing for the “Raven” stories? Did you confer with George Pérez? What were the high- and low lights? Dann: I don’t specifically remember discussing the stories with George to any great extent. I suspect that George’s schedule would not have permitted long conferences. I knew that George had an interest in belly dancing since his wife was an accomplished dancer, and that was specifically why I chose to make

the Raven’s arch-rival, Phoenicia, a belly dancer… which probably also explains the setting of the first story in Bahrain. Researching the stories was great fun and seeing George’s beautiful pencils was the always a thrill. Looking back over the stories today I realize that I’d crammed too much story into too little space… with consequently too much dialogue covering too much art. Jon: How would you characterize the rates at Deluxe and how did they compare to standard rates at the time? Dann: I believe they were about double the standard rates. Jon: How do you look back at the material in retrospect? Are you proud of the stories? And did you accomplish what you set out to do? Dann: I like the character development, bits of the dialogue, and certain aspects of the stories. But in retrospect, I feel I should have provided George with less-complex plots requiring fewer small panels and exposition. George’s storytelling was masterful, but I should have dealt him a better hand. Jon: Did you develop any affection for the characters? And would you ever like to return to them? Dann: Being a devotee of Raymond Chandler, I enjoy writing hard-boiled loners like Raven, though I seriously doubt that I’ll ever do it again. Jon: What transpired with Deluxe? How did the endgame come about and what was your reaction to the collapse? Dann: I really don’t remember precisely what led to the demise of Deluxe, though I believe the threat of lawsuit over copyright was at issue. Dave had secured a legal opinion that T-Agents were in public domain, and this was most likely disputed by others who felt they had a stake in the property. I don’t remember having any reaction to the book’s cancellation. Jon: What happened to David M. Singer and what do you think his impact on the field was? Dann: I have no idea what happened to David… though I hope

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[Editor’s note: John Workman’s bio and interview on his work for John Carbonaro can be found in the preceding JC Comics section.] Jon B. Cooke: How did you start working with David Singer? John Workman: John Carbonaro and David had come up to the offices of Heavy Metal and we had a nice talk about T-Agents and what he planned. Then, somehow, John fell by the wayside and it was Dave who came back to me and said, “Would you like to work on T-Agents?” I recall that he was very happy because he had just gotten someone to invest $250,000 in his plans. I thought, “That’s a nice little start, but it’s not an amount of money that’s gonna last forever. You’ll need more than that.” I also remember a party that Dave put together, where he rented a hotel suite, and Steve Ditko was there, as well as others (whose names I can’t remember). I stood there with Ditko, and the two of us were alone in our pessimistic attitude about the possibilities of this whole Deluxe Comics thing. Everyone else was sure that they would put DC and Marvel out of business and really show the world how comics should be done. Now, I liked what they were doing, because they were taking these fun characters and being respectful to them. Of course, they were also using some great talent, including Dave Cockrum, George Pérez, Keith Giffen, Jerry Ordway, Steve Englehart, Dann Thomas, and Steve Ditko. Ditko and I had a nice conversation that night. I always got along well with Dave Singer—he even came out to my house and stayed over a few times—but I do recall one time when I disagreed with his ideas. He was a terrific guy, but we were, politically, total opposites, which is okay, but Dave wanted to bring politics into the comics that he created. These were the Reagan years, but I got the idea that if Bill Clinton had been in the White House at that time, Dave would have been a big Clinton supporter. I never got the impression that he had any real belief in either conservatism or liberalism; he would follow whichever way the wind was blowing. But I do remember us arguing about Franklin Roosevelt. Dave had this great dislike for FDR—”He destroyed the country!”—and all that. Roosevelt has always been one of my heroes. Dave did a book (not related to T-Agents) about an ultra-conservative secret agent character. The original title of the book was going to be

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Below bottom: Wally Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #4 cover. Note the face of Iron Maiden was redrawn by John Workman. Art by George Pérez.

years of devoted fandom. But I do enjoy the “what if” story possibilities that super-powers or super-gadgetry allow with awesome exaggeration and wish fulfillment. NoMan is an interesting character, though I prefer Raven. Jon: Do you have anything to add about George Pérez? Dann: George is a comic-book genius and the ultimate pro who, despite crushing deadlines, has never submitted a mediocre page of art in his life. I have no specific anecdotes to relate, but he always impresses me as a larger than life person—a dynamo. Jon: Roy mentioned there was speculation that he co-wrote those stories with you, though told me he only did small suggestions and minor editing. How do you respond to such speculation? Dann: I am flattered by the suggestion because Roy is one of the best scripters in the field, but no, the writing in the “Raven” series is all mine… for good or ill. Roy’s help was primarily with balloon placement and in giving background and history of T-Agents. Jon: How do you look back at the Deluxe experience? Dann: My memories of the working on the series are nearly entirely positive. George gave me the Bahrain splash page and I’ve framed it and hung it in our entrance hall. I smile every time I look at it. I look forward to reading the book so as to learn more of the legal story. T-Agents work: SCRIPT: WW T-Agents #1, 2, 4.

John Workman

Left: Logo work by John Workman.

endless litigation didn’t drain away all his funds or his love for comics. Nor do I have any idea what his impact on the field may have been. Perhaps the brief realization of his dream inspired some other fan to try his hand at publishing… or discouraged another. I suspect most of the contributors will tell you that it was a fun and lucrative ride while it lasted. Jon: Do you have any affinity for super-heroes? Were there any other T-Agents characters you would have liked to tackle? Dann: My affinity for super-heroes is not as strong as those who became writers after

Right: Pin-up, Wally Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #3. Art by John Workman.

Codename: Action, but Dave’s lawyer worried about using the word “action,” given DC’s Action Comics, so it was changed at the last minute to Codename: Danger. But, because he still liked the word “action,” Dave had this odd notion to paste up the logo so the word “DANGER” was on top of “ACTION.” But he wanted it done in such a way that no one could get more than a glimpse of the other word underneath… a little bit of the letter “A.” I just thought that made no sense at all. The average reader seeing that would not know what the heck this word behind “DANGER” was and why it was popping up in that way. The whole ultra-conservative attitude of the character really made me wince, too… especially when that character’s “values” were so completely anti-conservative. I don’t know. Maybe I’m just an old relic, and Dave was actually way ahead of his time. I also recall that Dave considered himself quite a writer, and he would actually rewrite most of the scripts, which I thought he should have just left alone. Overall, though, the experience of working on Dave’s stuff was good and fun, even though it came to a sad ending. Jon: What was the pessimism you shared with Steve Ditko? John: By this time there was a sort of schism in the comics business. New companies had come along—First, Pacific, Eclipse—and the majority of the books that they put out (although a lot were thoroughly professional) never sat on a newsstand. They were being distributed only through comics shops, not being tested on the open market, so I thought of them pretty much as fanzines. I know they were intended to make a profit, but to compare direct sales-only books to newsstand comics… they just weren’t comparable, so these books were fanzines to me. Ditko felt the same way, and Singer’s T-Agents fell in that category. The book was not going to be exposed to millions of people. In a little town in Arizona or Maine or Colorado, you wouldn’t be able to walk into a drugstore and find it on the spinner racks or at any newsstand; it was just going to be in comic shops. Previously, I had received some very fancy promotional material from Pacific and they wanted to see if I might be interested in joining them. While I was impressed with much of what they had to offer— health benefits, and such—something told me that this was all a bubble that was about to burst. So I talked to Mike Friedrich about it

and he said, “No, these guys are solid. They’re gonna be around for 100 years.” Then Pacific disappeared and all of the others fell like dominoes. Dave Singer was paying better rates than DC or Marvel—from the art to writing to lettering and coloring—and he was getting good work in return. I just thought he should have left the writing alone. But he was paying well, but seemingly without any thought about the fact that the amount of money he had was finite. But Dave once told me that he didn’t care about the business aspect of Deluxe, that he would rather let other people handle that, and that it wasn’t comic books that he was primarily interested in. It was, ultimately, movies and television. He had this idea that he would be putting together this material, but that eventually the characters would earn huge amounts of money from movies and merchandising. Jon: I was speaking with Mark Texeira and he ventured to guess that there was a curse with the T-Agents. What do you think? John: Y’know, even as a kid, when I was 15 years old and I picked up that first issue and thought, “Wow! Wally Wood!”—I could see it a mile away because that cover was so nicely done—and it was 25¢ at a time when all the other comics were 12¢, but the readers got a lot for their money… there was something that just wasn’t quite right. So I understood that, although I was paying more, I was also getting more, and that’s fine. But there was something about those characters. They were so neat and so much fun, but they didn’t quite make the grade. There was a fanzine quality about them, even though they were very professionally done. As far as the stories and character development, it was as if someone had cooked a hamburger, but they hadn’t quite cooked it enough. And I think that stuck with the T-Agents throughout all of their incarnations. By the time the Tower T-Agents #17 came out, the issues were appearing pretty irregularly. Then they started using reprints, and so I realized that the end was near. There were wonky things about the books: I loved “The Raven” stories by Manny Stallman and I thought they were just great, but if Manny had done the entire book, I would have hated it. “The Raven” was an example of the variety of the art in the book, but Manny’s work pushed the limits of what was acceptable to a mass audience at that time. It was so different from so-called “acceptable comics,” and little things like that that made me realize why, though I liked T-Agents, a lot of other people wouldn’t have liked the books.

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Left bottom: Panel, “The Iron Maiden,” Wally Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #3. Art by Dave Cockrum (pencils) & Murphy Anderson (inks).

distinctly looks like a Workmandrawn visage. Do you recall revising that cover, as well? John: I did redo the face on #4’s cover. It was a really weird shot of the Iron Maiden with none of her facial features lined up with one another or in perspective. She looked like she’d been in an auto wreck and had then undergone extensive reconstructive surgery that hadn’t quite worked. I re-did the entire face, but Dave worried about offending George (maybe the only time such a thing crossed his mind), and he left the eyes as they were in George’s original. The result was less than great, but superior to the submitted work. Jon: You did a pin-up of Phoenicia? John: Yeah. That was great fun. I remember Roy Thomas critiquing it and saying, “Rather than drawing a belly-dancer, you drew a stripper.” [chuckles] Singer was so happy with it that he made a sample T-shirt (with plans to make a line of T-shirts featuring all the characters), and one of the staff guys wore it at a convention, but that was the only one they made. Jon: Was that just conceived as a pin-up? I notice it was adapted as a house ad, as well. John: That’s right. I’d forgotten. I did write a story about “Kitten,” who was a member of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Squad. They had given me an open deadline on it, so I wrote the script and, as I usually work, I lettered it and then started in on the artwork. But I set it aside and then the whole operation fell apart when Dave just disappeared into the night. So I never finished the story. Jon: You did a lot of lettering for Deluxe. Were you impressed by the diversity and the quality of the work? John: Yes, I was. All the guys did great work. Jerry Ordway’s “outer space” story was incredible! George Pérez and Dave Cockrum, working together, produced work that was reminiscent of Reed Crandall. But, again (and I may not be articulating this properly), there seemed to be some force working against the whole project… and I’m sure it was there for

Below: Code Name: Danger logo as referred to in Workman interview.

Jon: Is it telling that there wasn’t any veteran comic book writers involved in the books, with scripts that developed characters with dimension? There’s great enthusiasm to the material, but also this fannish element. John: At the time, Dell had a similar problem when they turned the classic Universal movie monsters into super-heroes, and the resulting books were awful. The stories were terrible and the artwork was pretty wretched, and Tower was in a similar situation, although their art was very good. There were some interesting aspects to the T-Agents characters, but it just didn’t quite gel. And if it didn’t gel with the guidance of Wally Wood, Len Brown, and all those other guys, then how would it be once fans took it over? Dave Singer had the good sense to hire really good people, although as time went by and the money disappeared, he started accepting work he probably shouldn’t have, but still there was this “curse of the characters” that you mentioned. I often wonder what would have become of the characters if DC or Marvel had acquired the T-Agents in the 1960s. There was a rumor at that time that DC would have a hand in the distribution and editorial make-up of the Tower books as a substitute for what they had been doing with the cancelled line of ACG comics. Jon: Do you recall doing paste-up corrections on two covers for WWTA? On the back cover of WWTA #2, one of the faces on the Dynamo-smoochingIron Maiden “next issue” cover by Pérez, is Menthora. But on WWTA #3’s actual cover, her head is replaced with some Asian guy with bangs. Do you recall the modification? John: I remember reading somewhere that George Pérez gave me the credit/blame for that new head on WWTA #2, but I swear that I didn’t lay a finger… or a pencil or brush… on it. Jon: On the cover of WWTA #4, the Pérez cover is obviously altered (something he complained about in Comics Interview #20), replacing George’s version of Iron Maiden’s face with what

Above: Detail of WWTA #4 letters page. Note the unfulfilled promise made.

gone on to much bigger things)—and he did, but he never paid them for their work on the last issue. I think they held onto the final, unpublished issue’s artwork for a long time. Jon: Dave has the air of being hungry for fame and fortune. Did you sense that? John: Oh yes. Though Dave loved comics, his ultimate goal was to be living in Beverly Hills, producing movies, and making a fortune from all the ancillary methods of bringing in money from comic book characters. [chuckles] You know, if life were a T-Agents comic book, Dave would now be sitting in a cavern underneath the White House, wearing an ominouslooking super-villain outfit, and shouting orders to his loyal-but-stupid sub-human minions who refer to him as “Karlrove the Mighty.” And maybe he is…. Wally Wood, John Carbonaro, Dave Singer… there was just something that no one could get around. No matter how T-Agents work: ART: WW T-Agents #3. [John also produced good the art, there always seemed to be trouble with the writing. (And logo work and lettering for both JC Comics and Deluxe, served as editor for the JC line, and wrote an unfinished “Kitten I’m sure that Dave made it worse, re-writing Dann Thomas, Steve Englehart, and all these people when he would’ve been better off just Kane” story for WWTA.] leaving their stuff alone.) While we hope readers are delighted with the bounty of new Jon: What became of David Singer? interviews found in this “T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Artists” section (far more John: I don’t know. He got married to a woman who was just a than your humble editor initially planned on conducting, but his OCB wonderful person. I remember them visiting here and she was just so apparently got the best of him… again!), we still unfortunately bubbly and cute. There was always something a little bit pompous missed a few. Our apologies to Tom & Mary Bierbaum, about Dave, about his character—I always liked him—but I thought who were ready to chat but Ye Ed ran out of both space and time. that maybe she could loosen him up a little bit. Then things started to Also, mea culpa to Mark Texeira, whose thoroughly entertaining go bad. I’d suggested that he use Heavy Metal’s typesetters—Rick interview recording was inadvertently erased.—JBC Spanier, Larry Lee (a wonderful artist), and Ben Katchor (who has

Shooter On Ownership of T-Agents In an online interview with Vinnie Bartilucci, found on the Valiant Comics Web site, at <www.valiantcomics.com>, former Marvel Comics editor-in-chief Jim Shooter discusses the little-known fact that the House of Ideas was once interested in purchasing Wallace Wood’s super-hero team. Following are excerpts from that Jan. ’92 interview. “I tried to buy the Tower characters in 1978 for Marvel, and made a deal with Tower, actually negotiated a deal with them. And got to the point of lawyers and contracts. And the reason the deal fell through is that Tower publishing could not produce a single scrap of evidence to prove that they owned what they were selling. There were no signed papers from Wally Wood, or anyone else. What had hap-

pened is they commissioned this work, they paid for it, they didn’t have so much as the little paragraph they used to put on the back of the check, they didn’t even have that, not a shred of legal evidence to prove they owned what they claimed to. And my legal opinion, and my lawyer’s legal opinion, was that this stuff was the property of Wally Wood, because, according to the law and in the absence of any other documentation, they had bought firsttime North American rights, and Wally Wood owns them. So, to this day, as far as I’m concerned, the owner of those characters is the Wally Wood estate. Why our legal system can’t figure that out, I don’t know. But Marvel’s lawyers and I agreed that this didn’t belong to who was trying to sell it. So option ‘A’ was to 147

go to Wally Wood, and advise him of his ownership of this stuff. But then he’d have to go to them, and he’d need lawyers, and… well, we just backed away. We just said, “No, we’ll let this go.” Since then, there have been all kinds of people licensing it from people who don’t own it, arguing with each other in court, and it’s all baloney…. “At one time, when [John Carbonaro and David M. Singer] were arguing, one of them came to me for a deposition, thinking I might have some information that could serve their case. After I talked to them, they went away and acted like I didn’t exist, because they knew if I’d gotten into that court I’d have destroyed all of them! In short, I don’t need a lawsuit.”

1987: The Solson Interlude In 1987, a curious one-shot appeared in the comic book shops, a title published by Solson, the small-press publishing house headed by Gary Brodsky, son of the late Marvel Comics production manager and co-founder of the ’70s black-&-white horror magazine line, Skywald, Sol Brodsky (Solson: “Sol’s son,” get it?), with the art direction of artist Rich Buckler. T.H.U.N.D.E.R., more an offshoot of the T-Agents than a revival per se (though NoMan is featured), is set in a noirish world of dark intrigue and political espionage, following the adventures of a young lady by the name of Lyn Brown, daughter of a certain blue-&-white agent of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Though only one issue of this oddity was produced, more were planned, with #2 finished. Here are interviews with artist James E. Lyle (pen-name JEL) and writer, Michael Sawyer.

Jon B. Cooke: Can you describe the Solson arrangement? What were your dealings with James E. Lyle, Michael Sawyer, Gary Brodsky, and Rich Buckler? John Carbonaro: Well, it started when one of my lawyers misstated the law during an injunction hearing. The judge subsequently refused to grant the injunction, but the proceedings were not part of the trial, only a hearing. Singer, working with smoke and mirrors, then put out an ad stating that he had won! But, like I said, while we lost the request for the injunction, this hearing wasn’t connected to the trial, yet still, somehow, Singer had won? So, on the basis of Singer’s premature declaration, [Solson publisher] Gary Brodsky and many others—without properly checking sources—started to produce new T-Agents books. I had to put out brush fires all over, ones started by people who had been, in effect, also sucker-punched by Singer. Brodsky was upset because he had already put together a book but couldn’t publish it, yet because I believed Gary and the creative team to be innocent (if foolhardy), I licensed the deal for a minimal fee. Eventually, I met James E. Lyle and we became friends, and I later put him to work over Lou Manna’s pencils and then over the third portion of Paul Gulacy’s Omni Comix material (of which only the first part was published). The Solson penciler had become my inker. (Hey, I still have loyalties to Will Blyberg, but I also knew he had moved on to bigger things, so I thought this work would elevate Lyle, too.) Rich Buckler had separate dealings with Gary Brodsky, so I didn’t deal with him. Jon: Did you hope to have T.H.U.N.D.E.R. take place in some alternative universe than the original characters? John: T.H.U.N.D.E.R., as being the Solson book by Lyle and Sawyer, had an alternative setting than of what I now call the “Thunderverse.” Jon: What's your assessment of T.H.U.N.D.E.R., and Lyle and Sawyer's unpublished work?

John: I’ve seen some of the unpublished material, but don’t think I’ve read #2. Their first one, in context, was amazing: Sharply written, crisp art and even top-notch inking. It was placed in an alternative future that held my interest. I’m looking forward to one day seeing it finished. Even I want to know how Sawyer and Lyle intend to conclude the story!

James E. Lyle

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James E. Lyle (a.k.a. Doodle) was born in Asheville, North Carolina, on October 10, 1963, but raised primarily about 30 miles east, at the foot of Blue Ridge Parkway, outside Waynesville, NC. He still lives there, though now with wife Karin and pet fish Mulacha. In ’92, the artist received an Associates of Applied Sciences in Commercial Art & Advertising Design from Southwestern Community College, where he graduated with honors (after some false starts). Doodle's first published comic book was Escape to the Stars, an early independent black-&-white that premiered in ’83. Highlights of his career still include co-creating T.H.U.N.D.E.R. with long-time friend, Michael Sawyer, but also inking over Paul Gulacy, a spirited correspondence with both Steve Skeates and Walter Simonson, and membership in the Southeast Chapter of the National Cartoonist Society. Currently, Doodle is doing what all freelance artists do: Working on lots of stuff that hopefully become (but maybe not) the next Big Thing. He was interviewed by e-mail in June 2005. Jon B. Cooke: How did the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. project come about? James E. Lyle: I had opened a studio in my home town of Waynesville, in the late Winter or early Spring of 1985, since my work on [the comic] Escape to the Stars was quickly outgrowing my bedroom at my parent’s house. I had produced a couple of issues of ETTS there, but was having increasing ego problems that led to arguments with the writer/creator of that series, Philip Hwang (which was my problem entirely, and I don’t blame Philip at all). So I was looking for something else to do. Mike Sawyer was sharing the studio space with me (we had been buddies for several years prior), and was looking for some way to do a project

Left: Illustration of Lyn Brown. Art by James E. Lyle.

John Carbonaro

Right: Previously unpublished cover art for T.H.U.N.D.E.R. #2. Art by Jackson Guice.

that he’d write and I would draw. We’d produced a couple of things, but nothing really caught on. We’d been fans of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents since the Archie/JC revival of the series, and so had been watching the lawsuit between John Carbonaro and Deluxe Comics pretty closely in the comics press. One night, while Michael was loopy from using Nyquil cold medicine, he picked up a copy of Amazing Heroes Preview and read a couple of the joke entries they’d included. He couldn’t quite make out that they were jokes. Willy Wonka’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents stuck with him as he went to sleep, and the next day he had it all figured out: That entry was a joke, but our book wouldn’t be. The problem was, we were under the impression that T-Agents had been declared public domain, and that anyone could do a book based on the original series. So we put our proposal package together and sent it off to Will Shetterly at SteelDragon Press. Will liked what he saw, but had enough sense to suggest that we should change it to something similar, not unlike the Charlton heroes becoming Watchmen, or he’d have to pass on it entirely rather than risk a lawsuit. But we were pretty headstrong—I was 21 or 22 at the time—and didn’t like the idea of changing it at all. About that time Chuck Wojtkiewicz, who had been nice enough to try to get me work on several projects, went to work for Solson Publications. He suggested we run the book by Rich Buckler. I’d had a few dealings with Rich a few years earlier and thought maybe he’d remember me. So we did. Rich thought we had a winner, but also didn’t want to risk a lawsuit. Fortunately, he’d been editing the Red Circle line for Archie when John Carbonaro was doing T-Agents under their JC imprint. Rich still had John’s number, and the two of them worked out a licensing deal. Buckler got the rights for something like five years, I think. Jon: What was your experience dealing with Solson? James: I’d worked mainly for really small press companies up to that point. Escape to the Stars was published by Philip 149

our collaboration was 50/50. Mike gave his support in various intangible forms as well. For instance, when the initial pages came back with Ron Wilber’s inks, I hit the roof! I had been imagining a sort of Klaus Janson approach, and Ron’s stuff was miles from that! It took me a couple of days to cool off. It’s a good thing we didn’t have a phone in the studio at the time or I’d have burned a few bridges with Solson that very day. Mike persuaded me to look at the work and realize Ron’s inks were really good, just different from what I expected. I had to add the tones on the first issue over a weekend. In fact, I had to take them with me to a show on the other side of the state. I was staying with Adam and Amanda Burchess that weekend and they ended up helping me out with the job. But for the most part the process was enjoyable. Even the rush parts have their nostalgic moments. Jon: What were your intentions with the series? What were the basic elements of the unpublished issues? James: Our intentions were for a much more “upscale” series, something that emulated Dark Knight and Watchmen… of course everyone was shooting for that at the time! The contract we signed was for a four-issue mini-series. We wanted to do it on the duo-shade board all the time, and Solson did pony up for that. (Well, some of it… after they went out of business, we got a $200 bill from Ohio Graphic Arts, which we ended up referring to Solson’s creditors. I don’t know if Ohio Graphic ever got that money or not.) Anyway, the book was supposed to be printed on slick stock, perfect-bound, the whole deal. Then, just when our book was supposed to ship, we heard that Solson was out of business! When the books actually showed up, while we were shocked by the cheapness, somebody at the company had sent us a whole case full of the books! Our feelings were mixed, to say the least. The duo-tones were a constant problem. Many of the pieces of paper had “missing” spots where the tone simply wouldn’t develop. Also, some of the pages were turned over to assistants at Solson and simply weren’t handled like I wanted. That’s why I ended up doing the tones with the Burchesses. (Not as good as I’d hoped for, but better than what I’d seen from Solson.) Oh, and Rich was supposed to ink

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Left: Previously unpublished cover art, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. #1 (second edition). Painting by James E. Lyle.

Hwang, using money he’d earned mowing lawns (or something like that). Any other projects had been done for comic shop owners who wanted to get in on this alternative bandwagon, and usually ended up coming off pretty poorly. By the time ETTS had its third issue, I was actually the art director, doing everything from penciling the book to scheduling presstime, and watching as the books came off the press! So all of my experience was small-townfeeling, family stuff. Suddenly we had the interest of what appeared to be a big New York publisher. The cracks in that facade started to show up pretty quickly. Chuck had warned me at the beginning that they seemed “a little fly-by-night,” and we found that to be the basic impression that we got as time went on. Jon: How do you recall the creative collaboration? James: The initial work was kind of strained. Mike was working the graveyard shift and watching his three-year-old daughter during the mornings. He’d finally come in to the office late in the afternoon, and I’d have to hassle him until I could get a few pages of plot. I’d take notes as he rattled off ideas. Then it would be time for him to go to work, and I’d sit down to sort the day’s notes into something we could run by Solson and John Carbonaro for approval. I used an old Underwood typewriter that had been in my family since the 1930s. It was a mess! I recall staying up until 1:00 or 2:00 A.M. one night, trying to get that four-issue plot typed up to send out. Once we had that initial four-issue plot synopsis finished, we went to work in earnest. I’d pencil a page or so a day and then we’d dope out exactly how the next page would set up. I’d draw out my layouts in the same spiral-bound notebooks where we’d scribbled the plot notes. Mike would look at what I had and say, “Looks good. Let me know how it turns out!” Then he’d be off to work, while I sat up drawing the next page. I’d stay in the studio until midnight or so, then go home to bed, come in the next day, check the mail, clean up the page, and wait for Mike to come in so we could plan the next page. After a while it became second nature. Mike could come in and say, “Try this,” and I’d make a sketch and be off drawing. He wouldn’t be in the studio for an hour a day. I’d show him what I’d done, we’d talk about the next page, and then that was it. But I don’t want to give the impression that I did all the work. I was lost without a writer and

Below: Pre-production sketch used to pitch Solson. Art by James E. Lyle.

the first cover, but that was a fiasco. When I saw the intended inking job, I had to redo the cover using copies of the pencil art. It came out okay; a lot of people thought it was striking, but it’s not what I wanted. There were also passages in the dialogue that were supposed to be in French. That never happened for some reason. I went to great lengths to get those bits of dialogue translated into proper French, but for some reason the letterer never used them. We were going to correct this in the Syncronicity re-issue (more on that later). As for the intended plot: What was supposed to happen was that the new T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents were supposed to work out their differences, help NoMan get his wits back (within reason… we liked him as the tragic clown), shake up the society at large, and escape to T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Mountain after disabling the matter transmitter portals. Weed and the original Dynamo were supposed to be left wondering about their complicity with the authorities, and not sure about whether these new kids were the bad guys or not. We had planned a follow-up wherein our guys would fight the Soviet bloc’s T-Agents. The logo would have the appropriate Russian letters, not unlike many issues of American Flagg! While I’m disappointed that our T.H.U.N.D.E.R. project never did get a chance to soar, my personal political views have changed radically since the project was first plotted. So I am actually relieved in a way that it never became big. Mike and I have always had a good relationship in spite of any differing opinions, so while I can’t speak for Mike, I think that the views expressed in T.H.U.N.D.E.R. are probably closer to his present politics than they are to mine. But I still recall the creation of the series fondly, in spite of any retrospective ideological doubts I have about the contents. Jon: What happened with the intended Synchronicity revival? James: As I mentioned, Rich Buckler had arranged with John Carbonaro for a five-year option on T-Agents for Solson, with our version of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. as the flagship. (There were plans at Solson for a Dynamo book, but it never

got off the ground). After Solson crashed, we had simply given T.H.U.N.D.E.R as a possibility and gone on to do other things. I, for instance, got engaged and married. But as I recall, Mike found John’s phone number while rummaging through some stuff and decided to give it a try. John was nice and told us that as far as he was concerned, we still held the license until some date in the spring of 1990. If we could get the book out before that date, we should go for it. So we went looking for a publisher and hooked up with Syncronicity. The problem with Syncronicity was that the whole thing was being backed by some millionaire or something. I’m fuzzy on these details because I got them second- or third-hand. Apparently he died, and while his wife was still willing to back the company, the whole thing ended in probate court. We had the publishing schedule timed down to the very month that the license expired. When the backing fell apart, there was no time to get any other funding and still get all four issues out on time. Like I say, I got all this news very second-hand. From my point of view it went like this. I was at my in-laws’ house for Christmas and New Year’s. We were supposed to be running a preview of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. in The Comics Buyer’s Guide in a week or so. So I had stayed up all night trying to get the inks and letters on several pages done. I’d penciled them while we were still under the impression that we were working at Solson, but they needed inks and letters. I was doing the all-nighter on Dec. 30. I was supposed to package the stuff up and send it out FedEx the next day. I went to bed about 5:00 A.M. with instructions to my wife to wake me in time to make the shipment out to CBG that afternoon. When she woke me, she said that Maggie Thompson had called and the whole deal was off. I didn’t get the news from anyone directly involved! I don’t have any really bad feelings towards anyone involved. Everyone tried to do what they could. I will say that I’m still a little miffed that someone at Solson held on to half the art from issue #2, and I’ve heard that some pages were floating around at some New York shows. If anyone should see these pages, I’d really like to get them back. But

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other than the art thieves, I’m okay. My relationship with John Carbonaro is good. We e-mail one another on a pretty regular basis, and every time a T-Agents project comes up, he tries to let me know about it and involve me in some way, and sends me freebies of the stuff that’s coming out. Nice guy.

wanted us to follow in developing the book. Of course, I had only spoken to John once and didn’t really feel like I knew him, didn’t really feel like I was friends with him. But Rich pointed out that this wasn’t Pulitzer Prize-winning writing we were doing; it was a comic book. We were lucky that we were getting copyright on the art and the story, and John was going along with that while he was able to keep his characters protected. James: I almost get the feeling that one reason John went along with us retaining ownership was that it strengthened his case in court to Interview conducted by James E. Lyle in the Sawyer home, June have people to say, “No, we’re willing to pay the licensing fees.” 2005. James E. Lyle: How did the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. project come about? Michael: Well, it did! I think that you’re right! As it turned out Michael Sawyer: Well, that was a sort of a roundabout thing. over the years, John’s a great guy—a good guy to have as a We were really into The Dark Knight Returns, design of those cover, etc., but at the same time we were both fans of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents, and the questionable ownership of T-Agents at the time made us want to try to do our version of the book. We figured if it was public domain, why not do something more along the line of the Teen Titans rather than the T-Agents of before? I liked the way it turned out. [laughter] James: What was your experience dealing with Solson? [bomb noises, laughter] Michael: Well… “crash and burn”? [laughter] It was exactly the opposite of John Carbonaro’s experience of dealing with Solson. John’s contact was [publisher] Gary Brodsky, who treated him very nicely. Our contact was Rich Buckler, who treated us very nicely. But in the end we’d gone through getting the book together and Rich talking me out of killing off Reflex simply because I didn’t want to go along with John’s plans that he

Michael Sawyer

Left: Previously unpublished page from T.H.U.N.D.E.R. #2. Art by James E. Lyle.

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Upper right: “Official T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Staple Certificate.” Bottom right: Panel detail, The Raven, unpublished T.H.U.N.D.E.R. #2. Art by James E. Lyle.

friend—and Rich Buckler is a pretty nice guy. Gary Brodsky, I don’t think I’ll ever know him well enough to say, “He’s a nice guy,” or not. I just regret that our relationship turned out like it did. So many of our friends were doing stuff for Solson, and really—now here’s the sour grapes—we all got screwed over! Lost original artwork, and didn’t get their printed books. We were lucky! We got paid for some of our work and finally got a case of books, of #1, which revealed all of the things that they ignored in your instructions about the cover and the inside cover, all of those things that would have made the book look much nicer, but they didn’t follow the instructions. But, you know, I don’t think we could have found—at the time—another publisher that would have been willing to take a chance or make a deal with John C. I think Solson, in spite of any disappointments, or anything that we would have liked different with Solson, I think that we were lucky to have them. I got a chance to work on other books simply because a writer can work faster than an artist. You were doing a great job drawing T.H.U.N.D.E.R., and I was lucky enough so that after I was finished working on the issues of T.H.U.N.D.E.R., I had time to work on Codename: Ninja and actually plot out the companion ninja book that was supposed to go with it. James: Okay, that kind of feeds into the next question actually: Can you describe the creative collaboration? Michael: When we were working on T.H.U.N.D.E.R., it was—well, we’ve been around each other for so long that it was like finishing each other’s sentences, and having basically the same ideas about artwork and everything. While I’m not able to reproduce those ideas, you almost read my mind and drew what I saw in my head…. James: And if I didn’t, you gave me grief about it. Michael: That’s right! [laughter] Yeah, but generally speaking— James: Generally, it worked out. Michael: It worked out, yeah. I might give you grief about it, but most of the time you hit

right on with artwork that really reflected what I was thinking. And I think that’s just because we’ve been around each other so much, we’ve tried, over the years, so many times to do comic ideas. It hasn’t always necessarily worked out, but it has worked out enough times to be encouraging. James: What were your intentions with the series, and what were the elements of the unpublished issues? Michael: Like I said earlier, there was a lot of questioning about whether John owned the characters or not. Not that we were trying to cheat him— heavens knows, if we ever get a chance to work on it again, we are definitely on John’s side and working with him to get it done. Over the years he has come to like the version that we did. I think that every version that was coming out, whether it was Omni Comix, Deluxe, or JC Comics, it was a version of the classic T-Agents. When we did it, it was new characters in the same outfits… or close to the same outfits. James: Sort of a Silver Age version, as opposed to the Golden Age version? Michael: Right. It was a time when actually the political situation in the United States was frighteningly conservative—not as bad as it is right now—but it made for good background fodder for a comic book. Reagan was in. Reagan had a government that was really conservative, and that made a good background for a comic book. Heaven help us if it ever gets as bad as it was in T.H.U.N.D.E.R.—as far as politically, civilization in the United States being that restrictive. I don’t see that happening, and I certainly hope it never happens. James: Yeah, we were pretty dark back then. [laughter] Michael: Well, that’s another influence of The Dark Knight Returns on the book— and y’know…. What was the question? [laughter] James: What were your intentions with the series? Michael: Well, they were: 1) To produce a team of T-Agents that was similar to the original, but who were not the same characters. 2) To show what happened to the original characters, how did they grow? Move into the future

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and when the kids came, it gave him a purpose which sort of gave him a way to work through the confusion in his android body. So they went out, as I remember, to retrieve certain plans from one of the T-Agent offices, The Nordic Press. The idea was to expose the way the U.S. had taken over the T-Agents and to set it all up for a second series, since we had only had plans for four issues. James: The second series was supposed to show how the Soviets had done approximately the same thing. Michael: It also continued the story of Len Brown, who now had two daughters, by Iron Maiden. And Iron Maiden, of course, I think we probably would have exposed how she had passed, because I don’t think we told that in the first book. James: In the first book, we had him in the graveyard, and that was all the foreshadowing we had space for in that issue. Michael: I’ve read the reviews of all of the T-Agents books that were coming out, and we got a pretty good review for our book. So I think if we had been able to finish the first series, there would have been a second series. I think it would have sold well, and we would have had a chance to really start to delve into what had happened to the classic agents, including Iron Maiden, and what was happening over on the Soviet side. James: I really wanted to do Skooby Dolittle but it didn’t happen. What happened to the intended Syncronicity revival? [laughter] Michael: [Groans] James: Put in brackets, “Groans of pain.” [laughter] Michael: I think we found out that the book wasn’t going to happen from [CBG editor] Maggie Thompson letting us know that the preview scheduled for CBG had been cancelled…. What is [publisher] Mike’s last name? Mike at Syncronicity? James: I can’t remember. Michael: I can’t remember either. This is a bad thing and apologies to Mike for that. It’s been so long, and I’ve had so many medical things that—

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Left: Pin-up (previously unpublished). Art by James E. Lyle.

just a little bit and show how their lives went, and changed. Len Brown is the one character that really comes to mind. While we showed Weed, I don’t think that we actually talked about what happened to the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Squad. James: Yeah, there was a lot of background material that we never got to. Michael: It never came out, but would have, because plans were for Len to try and get the Dynamo suit back from Lyn Brown… Len also wanted to bring the T-Agents back to what they once were. What we had was basically a young, sort of Teen Titans-team of T-Agents. We had young people taking over the roles of the classic characters, except for NoMan. NoMan was in Thunder Mountain, and the kids came and— NoMan’s had a lot of time on his hands and so the Raven suit had been redesigned, the Lightning suit had a, basically, a dialysis unit built into it. And realizing why there was a need for the cleaning of the blood with the Lightning suit, he built the Reflex suit. Which didn’t make the wearer move as fast as Lightning, but gave them reflexes which were faster than the ordinary person. James: Now, correct me if I’m wrong, was not the name “Reflex” inspired by that Duran Duran song? Michael: Yes, it was, and while we’re speaking of Reflex and you go on to Sovereign Seven—which we had nothing to do with, I think that was Chris Claremont’s book for DC. He had a character named Reflex in there. Now where that name came from, I don’t know. James: We had it first. [laughter] Michael: We didn’t swipe it. So as far as that goes, our Reflex was hanging around for a while before that Reflex came along. As we had it plotted out, NoMan had some fiddling, for lack of a better word, done to his android circuitry. The android body would have basically still have transferred NoMan’s consciousness, if he had been able to make sense out of how to do it. But…. James: Eventually, we had him make the switch at the end of #2. Michael: Yeah. He had been by himself, plus been “confused,”

Below: Illustration from On The Drawing Board V. 2 #11 (whole #58), Mar. ’67. Art by Hugh Surratt. Used with permission.

James: What’s my excuse? [laughter] Michael: I think that Mike’s backer disappeared. The money sort of evaporated and that wasn’t Mike’s fault. James: I think it ended up in probate court or something? That maybe the widow was still going along with it, but the rest of the family didn’t like the idea? Michael: I think the widow wanted to do what her husband had planned, but the rest thought that comic books were a silly investment. While that’s a shame, the lady would probably not have made her money back, which is just the way it is with small-press comics. James: And 20 years of hindsight. Michael: I think we would have had a popular series but to make the same kind of money back that you invested into a publishing venture, that’s difficult, and I don’t think they would have made that money back. We did have a confident backer for a short while, only he just didn’t have the money because his backer was not there anymore. But it was also probably a good thing because we had lost contact with John Carbonaro. Right now, I don’t think either of us, knowing John, would make an effort to do a T-Agents book without his permission. James: We had John’s permission on that. You’d essentially gotten on the phone with him and he said, “No, you guy’s got it until this date, so if you can get the series out by that time, then it’s fine with me.” But we were really pushing the deadline close. [laughter] Michael: We needed a letterer. We had you and me, but we didn’t

have the rest of the team needed to get the project done, as far as production work went…. If we did have John’s permission, it’s one of those gaps in my mind I can’t recall. I sort of remember talking to him. James: Yeah, I think we had something like five months from the planned launch. Because we were planning on launching it at the beginning of 1989, and our license was up at the end of June, so we had maybe six months, inclusive. And we were like, “If we ship the first book and get the next two on a bi-monthly schedule, then jump right on a monthly for the last issue, we can beat the schedule!” Michael: I don’t think that John was completely sold that it was a good story, back in those days. I know from my conversations with you that he kinda likes it now. But back then, I don’t think he was completely sold because it wasn’t the “classic” approach. Now I think he’s seen how nice an alternate version could be, but back then he didn’t. I remember him telling me, “I don’t like it.” [laughter] James: I wasn’t privy to that. I’m glad you kept that from me. It would have intimidated me to death. I just thought he wanted us to rename it T.H.U.N.D.E.R. 2000, and we dug our heels in and said, “Absolutely not!” and he kinda gave in on that. Michael: Yeah, he wanted to separate it from the T-Agents, make it a sort of an alternate universe thing and it just didn’t sit well with us. He didn’t like it because he didn’t want it to connect directly into his TAgents. We may get a chance to do another version of it. You never know what’s going to happen!

A Brief Aside by Ye Humble Ed The comics world is a small world after all... Many of those who were passionate about funny books in their tender years, often stick it out and stay fans for life. Ye Editor is no exception and, as some might know, he has channelled this unhealthy obsession by becoming editor of a magazine about the subject, Comic Book Artist. Thus, through the mag, yours truly gets to meet many of like background and make many new friends whose fannish roots always come as a delightful surprise. Take Hugh Surratt, for instance, big-shot music executive (and best pal of Jeff Gelb, another Big Name Fan), with whom Y.E. has gotten along famously over the past several years. While searching for T-Agents related stuff in ’60s fanzines, what do I find? Young Surratt’s homage to Manny Stallman’s Raven! You go, Hugh! How cool is this... ?

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Some Blunders Over T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Perhaps the most obscure oddities in the convoluted history of our heroes are their unauthorized appearances in two 1987 independent comic books, Boris the Bear and Thunderbunny, published by Dark Horse and Apple Comics respectively, who wrongly assumed that the T-Agents were safely in the public domain. While trademarks/copyrights owner John Carbonaro didn’t take any legal action against the fledgling companies, their unwitting infringements were evidence of the field’s lingering confusion caused by the prior declarations of David M. Singer.

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scripted by Martin L. Griem, with art by Brian Buniak (first and last chapters) and Gary Kato (middle chapter). Richard Pini and Joelyn Dorkin edited. Stewart gives an overview of the issue contents: “Thunderbunny’s alter ego, Bobby Caswell, hears on his uncle’s police scanner that erstwhile compatriot Golden Man (a revived 1940s hero) has been injured. Changing into Thunderbunny, our hero investigates, and finds a hooded strongman—a Dynavac!—demolishing his friend’s business. Dynamo and Weed arrive on the scene. The heroes mistake each other for villains and a donnybrook ensues before they sort it out. As a result, Thunderbunny becomes… T.H.U.N.D.E.R.bunny! “In part two, an invisible NoMan tracks Iron Maiden to her lair. He’s detected and defeats one of her Dynavacs, only to have his powers neutralized by the femme fatale. (The art on this chapter is a slick and technically-flawless Ditko pastiche by Kato.) The third part features the Gil Kane version of Raven (also by Kato), dodging Iron Maiden’s missiles until he’s saved by Thunderbunny. They both join Dynamo and Weed to attack the fortress of the bad guys (gals?). “The next part depicts an obligatory big battle, and of course, our beloved super-heroes triumph. “In the story’s epilogue, Dynamo and Thunderbunny find a rationale for the similarity of their costumes: The explanation concerns one Professor Woods—designer of the Dynamo costume—who looks an awful lot like a certain artist named… who else? (The name Wood, naturally, is lettered in the ‘Olde English’ typeface style of the cartoonist’s universally recognized

The issue of Boris the Bear containing the offending appearance of Wallace Wood’s super-hero team [#11, June 1987] was written by Dark Horse publisher Mike Richardson, with pencils by James Dean Smith and inks—on the first 14 pages—by Dan Adkins. T-Agents Companion contributor Scott Stewart, whose appreciated help in this section has proven immeasurable and who is also quoted extensively herein, describes the contents of the comic (as well as a subsequent peek at Thunderbunny #11, which also guest-starred the group in ’87): “Dynamo comes to Boris in a dream and tells him he must go on a mission. He gives the bear some comics (including THUNDER Bunny Agents) and leaves a Dynamo suit. Boris puts it on and takes off flying through the skies. On page eight, a subterranean reveals to Iron Maiden that he’s cloning the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents, and multiple replicas of NoMan, Dynamo and Menthor appear in the last panel.” Scott goes on to discuss the page of original art he owns from that same issue: “I own page nine, which features the Iron Maiden, her minion, and T-Agents wearing the guise of the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents Kids (junior versions of the aforementioned NoMan, Dynamo and Menthor) and the X-THUNDER Agents Men (the trio disguised as Angel, Cyclops, and the Beast). The artwork sports Adkin’s nice, representative inks and Zip-A-Tones.” Concluding his synopsis of that issue, Steve writes, “Boris ruins Iron Maiden’s plans, saves the day, and the story ends at the grave of Wallace Wood,” an homage that is similar to the conclusion of our next story. Thunderbunny #11 [Sept. ’87] was published by Apple Comics, and

Upper right: Page from Boris the Bear #11 Art by James Dean Smith (pencils) & Dan Adkins (inks). ©2005 Dark Horse Comics. Bottom right: Panel from Thunderbunny #11. Art by Brian Buniak. ©2005 the respective copyright holder.

signature lettering.” Obviously, authorized or not, both comic books can be viewed as appreciations of Wallace Wood and his unforgettable T-Agents, and the owner of Woody’s creations, John Carbonaro, recognized, to his credit, the respectful intents of both Dark Horse and Apple. But he also saw those issues as containing not parodies of the heroes, but flat-out appearances. In his interview with Jon B. Cooke for this book, John describes his relationship with Dark Horse in the ’80s, their unlawful use of his properties, and his hope not to be seen as a bad guy just because he is firm in protecting what is rightfully his. “I tried to be part of their team at one point,” John said. “But I was basically told there was no room at Dark Horse for T-Agents. They were only one publisher who believed David Singer’s wrong-headed contention that the characters were in public domain, so an issue of Boris the Bear guest-starred T-Agents, an unauthorized

appearance. My lawyers then hit Dark Horse with a cease-and-desist letter, insisting that straight use of the characters didn’t constitute a parody (a defensible position) as they used actual likenesses, costumes and names. Still, I figured they were duped by Singer—like so many others—so I just let it slide when they dropped a planned appearance of Dynamo from next issue. Understand that I was never looking for money but rather just to protect the characters I owned.” John explained, “Look, I don’t want to be a S.O.B. to everyone, and I knew that Dark Horse was doing good work, so I later asked them about licensing, but they had a lot on their plate so nothing happened.” (We presume John’s sentiments also pertain to the Thunderbunny appearance, given he would subsequently license T-Agents to Mike Catron’s company, albeit an arrangement that would lapse as no comics were produced.)

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1995: Penthouse Comix “T&A”gents Two fascinating—and frustrating—aspects of the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents are that, for one thing, they never stayed in one place very long after the first revival back in 1981, and for another, each respective appearance bares virtually no resemblance to the last. Such is certainly the case for the one-shot appearance the characters made in Omni Comix #3, published by one of the leading men’s magazines of the day, Penthouse. Blanketed in top-flight production values, the appearance was the first in an intended three-part adventure, written by Omni’s flamboyant editor, the late George Caragonne (along with Tom Thornton), with art by penciler Paul Gulacy and inker Terry Austin. Caragonne had big plans for T-Agents, intending to publish a T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #0 (with multiple artists contributing, including a young Jordan Raskin, interviewed below, and a prologue by Paul Gulacy, featured in the pages that follow), and more. Alas, the story of George Caragonne is a tragic one (the editor/writer committed suicide in 1996), a tale that will be soon told in the pages of CBA, and no other T-Agents exploits from Penthouse were published, though innumerable material was prepared, begging the question, is there a T-Agents curse?

John Carbonaro

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Left: Panel detail. Art by Paul Gulacy (pencils) & Terry Austin (inks).

Jon B. Cooke: Who was George Caragonne and Constant Developments? John Carbonaro: At the near-end of the Apple Comics deal, and since they were obviously not going to meet the deadline, I asked [Apple publisher] Mike Catron to let his deal lapse two months ahead of time to allow a new guy in, George Caragonne, who was brought to me by my agent at the time. George pretty much was Constant Developments. Jon: One artist distinctly recalls receiving a check from, of all things, the publisher of Richie Rich, Harvey Comics, for a T-Agents job (though he did say that George brokered the deal). Was the license granted to George before Penthouse Comix came into existence? John: George had developed a great marketing plan during what was a booming time for comic book sales. He got Harvey Entertainment to back him just before they went public. Unfortunately, Harvey’s lawyers insisted that George had to pay back their investment before the books were even published, so he shopped around to other publishers. Chris Henderson, novelist and Batman writer, directed him to Penthouse publisher Bob Guccione. Bob told George that he was unwilling to do super-hero comics but did want to use George’s marketing plan for a proposed line of Penthouse comics, though that unwillingness obviously softened (and you can blame T-Agents indirectly for the Men’s Adventure stuff). Meanwhile, Harvey came back to George with a decent proposal and took over payments for TAgents material that had been assigned. But when they went public, Harvey made a mistake, threatening George by withholding checks due to artists unless he could get me to sign a multimedia deal with them. I told George that I was willing to negotiate

if the deal was right, but instead he asked me not to. His plan was, once they had deliberately missed making contractual payments, he could now tell them to void the contract by threatening to expose their deliberate breach to the new stockholders. So the material came to George and I with payments made to Harvey Entertainment. Okay, so Harvey leaves the picture and George is busy developing the Penthouse Comix line, and my funds once again became limited (and I realized I should’ve taken the Harvey deal, but oh well). Penthouse did make claims after George’s suicide that because he owed them money, they were going to deface all the art (even though, by contract, the rights to the material were mine) unless I stopped my deal with Rob Liefeld and allowed them to publish the stories. So my choice was to sue a guy—one with reputed gangster ties—who might indeed make good on his threat to destroy the art, or allow him to publish a T-Agents story. Guess what I chose? Yep, I chose to live. I let them do their book and took the fallout from Rob, who went and started his version without consulting me. Jon: What was to be included in the unpublished “Issue Zero”? John: A prologue by penciler Paul Gulacy and inker Terry Austin, then an “Andor” story by Paris Cullins (pencils) and Will Nyberg (inks). Also Dave Gibbons did the cover (which appeared as a pin-up in Omni Comix #3). Garry Leach drew one story, plus two pin-ups. Jordan Raskin also drew a three-pager starring Dynamo and Iron Maiden. Jon: I’m confused. Can you detail exactly the plans and chronology of this material? Was it initially supposed to be a comic-size production? Was there any plans for a T-Agents-only title? How much stuff was produced? John: George Caragonne, the actual editor/publisher/writer, intended for “Issue Zero” to precede the Omni Comix #3 story, as a regular comic. It introduced the characters and villains. The Omni story was originally intended as a stand-alone comic (though George did mention using the “Issue Zero” material in subsequent issues of Omni Comix before he killed himself. The intended chronology was: 1) “Issue Zero”; 2) The three Gulacy chapters (first two inked by Austin, final one by James E. Lyle); and 3) the Cullins/Nyberg fill-in completed at the time Paul was doing Batman vs. Predator. Jon: What happened with the whole Penthouse deal? John: George seemed to think he could handle whatever he was

Right: Page from unpublished second chapter of Omni Comix T-Agents story. Art by Paul Gulacy (pencils) & Terry Austin (inks).

ingesting. People around him then reported his various antics to Guccione, and George was out. I talked to him the night before his suicide, telling him we would take the material to Liefeld, where George could be editor. Obviously, these plans evaporated the very next day.

Terry Austin Terry Austin’s birthday is August 23, and he was born in Detroit, Michigan, and graduated from that city’s Wayne State University. Considered one of the comic industry’s finest inkers, Terry has delineated the pencils of many of the field’s greatest pencilers—from John Byrne on The X-Men, to Frank Miller on Daredevil, to Marshall Rogers on “Batman” and Doctor Strange, to Brian Bolland on Camelot 3000—and, on occasion, has even written a tale or two. The artist lives in upstate New York in a house overflowing because of a too-big art collection, as well as too many books and DVDs, while he currently works on the much-anticipated Batman reunion with writer Steve Englehart and artist Marshall Rogers. Terry was interviewed by phone on June 19, 2005. Jon B. Cooke: Did you read T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents in the ’60s, Terry? Terry Austin: Oh, yeah. I loved them. I recognized Woody’s art from Daredevil when I saw T-Agents #1 on the stands. I grabbed it and realized, “Oh my gosh! There’s Gil Kane, Reed Crandall, and all these great artists!” Not to mention Mike Sekowsky, one of my favorites. I couldn’t wait for every new issue to come out. That was one of my favorite comics as a kid. Jon: Was the early demise of the Tower comics frustrating? Terry: Yes. It was like Warren Publications, as both started out great guns, with superb artists, but they went down in quality over time, bringing in lesser artists. By the time Tower ended, it had developed a serious limp, but I was still there for every issue and looked forward to each one. They still had some great contributors at the end: George Tuska, Manny Stallman, guys I wasn’t as familiar with but who were certainly very talented. Jon: Did you work on the ’80s revival of T-Agents? Terry: No, I didn’t. I got a call to do something but wasn’t interested at the time, so I took a pass. Jon: How did your association with Penthouse Comix come about? Terry: Editor George Caragonne contacted me about inking Paul Gulacy on “T-Agents” and I said, “Okay.” But, at that point, George was talking about Marvel publishing it and then, at some point, it became Harvey Comics. It was only much later when it somehow became tied in with Penthouse Comix, and I don’t think I would have signed onto the assignment if it had originally associated with Penthouse. I believe Paul had done three issues, plus a six-pager for T-Agents #0, but I decided not to ink the last chapter because it had become obvious that they were not the characters that I liked. There was a brutality and a casual violence to everything, and I couldn’t relate that to how I viewed the T-Agents, so I opted out.

Jon: Because it was a lot darker than you had hoped? Terry: Well, a dark approach was in vogue with comics in those days… your heroes had to have feet of clay and had to be grim, but that wasn’t the T-Agents I remembered. The original characters had moments of deep tragedy, but they were contrasted with moments of great humor, and humor just didn’t seem to be an aspect of this new material. So it just wasn’t very appealing to me after I had done two issues (though I’m glad I got to ink a couple panels of Iron Maiden, so I was able to fulfill a childhood fantasy there). I guess the Omni Comix stuff just wasn’t what I hoped it would be. Jon: So George Caragonne paid you out-of-pocket? Terry: You know, I think at one point I actually got paid by Harvey Comics, when they were going to publish it, and it seemed so odd… the people who publish Casper, the Friendly Ghost, were going to publish this really brutal version of T-Agents? I just didn’t get it. I’m sure that at least one of the checks came with the Harvey logo on it. Jon: Had you previously inked any work by Paul Gulacy? Terry: I think we had done one of the early story arcs together in Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight [“Prey,” #11-15, Sept. ’90-Feb. ’91] previous to “T-Agents.” I believe that was the first time I had inked Paul, but I have a notoriously bad memory, so I’m not entirely sure…. Jon: Had you known George prior to the “T-Agents” gig? Terry: I think when he called me about the T-Agents, that was the initial contact. Later on, I did do some Penthouse Comix work for him,

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and did you deal with editor George Caragonne? Paul: George had just gotten hired by Penthouse and he arranged to fly me into New York and have a pow-wow. We discussed some nuts-&-bolts over dinner, and then he brought me over to the Penthouse offices to take a look at some of the work he was preparing for Omni. Jon: Overall, what were your dealings with Penthouse? Paul: They told me if I would take a little less money, they would compensate with all the booze and broads I wanted… not really. Actually, my dealings with them at the time were centered only around the T-Agents work. Jon: As best as you can recollect, are these all the unpublished pages you did for Penthouse? If not, can you describe others? Paul: No way! These pages represent a only a snippet of a big-ass story. There’s an entire “Part Two,” with blazing guns and super-hero action, that’s never been published. Jon: Caragonne’s life came to a sudden and tragic end. Were you surprised by his spectacular suicide and can you share any insights into the man’s personality and career? Paul: When I met George, he was wearing a ten-gallon cowboy hat, the boots, and a black trenchcoat. I think he was from Texas. He was this huge man filled with crackling energy, with ideas flying out of him. He loved comics and was really excited by not only working for A native of Youngstown, Ohio, Paul Gulacy was born in 1953, and he Penthouse, but “T-Agents” became his baby. produced his first professional artwork (newspaper fashion illustrations) My wife at that time and I joined George and his fiancée for dinwhile a high school senior [FINAL COPY TO COME] ner on a couple of occasions, and we all became friends very quickly. One day at the Penthouse office, while exchanging ideas in Jon B. Cooke: Did you encounter T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents when regards to the direction we wanted to take with T-Agents, George came they first appeared in the ’60s? If so, what did you think of the charac- very close to my face in his high-energy, animated way, and asked me ters at that time? to name the best Bond movie ever made. I said, “That’s easy! You Paul Gulacy: I did, and I thought the art and the characters Only Live Twice.” He started leaping in the air with clenched fists, were lame. I liked the title though. yelling, “Yes! Yes! Yes! Yeah, baby! We’re on the same page!” Jon: Did you have any appreciation for the work of Wallace Wood? George told me that his dream was to start a comic book comPaul: Yeah, Wally was one of those guys, like Ditko, who had the pany back in Texas similar to what Mike Richardson had done with ability to pull off these special effects that were very convincing. Even Dark Horse, except that it would be more like a campus for all the pros to drop in, with cabins and such for staying over. It was a cool idea. if it seemed corny, it was still fun to look at. When I heard the news of his death, it felt like a giant punch to Jon: How did the T-Agents assignment for Omni Comix come about,

Paul Gulacy

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This spread: Two pages of three-page story intended for (unpublished) T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #0. Art by Jordan Raskin.

and that became a case of more and more overt sexuality with each successive chapter, so I opted out of that, as well. That assignment had surpassed my comfort point… I’m a little bit on the conservative side in terms of graphic sex and violence. Jon: Were you surprised to hear that George committed suicide? Terry: Absolutely. I only had met him once, though we did have a lot of phone conversations, but George was one of those guys I could never quite get a handle on. He always seemed very enthusiastic about whatever it was he was working on at the time, and managed to get whoever he was working with enthused, but I didn’t know him very well, so I was shocked to hear the news. Jon: Would you like to return to the characters one day? Terry: Under the right circumstances, sure. That would be swell. But I have to wonder if there’s anybody who could actually do them right, at this point. It might be better if these characters were just left alone, just to see them again in the hardcover reprints. The ’60s stuff had a certain charm and the tone of each tale wasn’t entirely predictable… sometimes it would be overt slapstick, another time it would be the death of Menthor. That kind of approach is hard to come by these days and more’s the pity.

the gut. I was shocked. My then-wife, Jan, fell apart over the phone when I broke the news to her. It took everyone by surprise. If George didn’t succeed in comics, he would have made it somewhere else. He was one of those kind of guys. Jon: Looking back, were the T-Agents enjoyable to work on and, if the opportunity arose again, would you like to return to the characters? Paul: Yeah, it was a lot of fun. I never had done any super-hero work. Just this gang. I’m not sure if I would do it again. It would have to be really updated, for sure. You know, totally re-vamped. it was a great idea. It should have gone farther than it did.

Jordan Raskin Jordan Raskin was born on Sept. 23, 1969, in Brooklyn, New York. Starting his career in the early ’90s at various small comic book companies, the artist quickly began penciling for just about every major publisher, including several high-profile projects, including Predator: Race War (Dark Horse) and Ripclaw (Top Cow). In the mid-’90s, Jordan temporarily left comics for a career in advertising, creating presentation and shooting storyboards for various agencies. Since then, Jordan has worked in TV animation as the background designer for Stretch Film’s Courage the Cowardly Dog (currently airing on Cartoon Network) and the new Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (4kids Entertainment). Currently, Jordan is drawing an adaptation of his fulllength feature film screenplay, Industry of War, as a comic-book series. He is also branching off as a director and producer of live action films. He currently resides in Southern California. Jordan was interviewed by email on June 14, 2005. Jon B. Cooke: Prior to the assignment, were you exposed to the previous incarnations of the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents? Jordan Raskin: In truth, I had not encountered the characters prior to doing this three-pager (originally intended for Omni Comix, and the first time I was able to ink my own sequential art), but I’ve always liked and appreciated the work of Wallace Wood. He was a fantastic artist and also an influence on a generation of other artists. Jon: How did you get the TAgents job and what were your

dealings with editor George Caragonne and other Penthouse staffers? Jordan: I got the gig because I was around the offices working on a short story for Penthouse Comix called “Dixie Snakeyes.” Ray Weisfeld, writer of “Dixie,” was also the associate editor there and he suggested me to George to do some pages for a “jam issue” of TAgents. The atmosphere of my part of the issue was dark and moody, a feeling my work reflected, so Ray thought I was a good fit for this particular story. My dealings with George were… ummmm… interesting? (Insert smile.) He was quite a character, but my dealings were mostly with Ray, which were good. We’re still friends to this day. Jon: What happened? You only produced three pages? Jordan: Yes, only those three pages were assigned to me. It was part of a jam issue with many different artists drawing various parts of a larger story. Truth is, I never even saw what other artists were doing on that gig. Today, I look at these pages and cringe! (Insert laughing.) Jon: Can you give us a description of the story here? Jordan: I don’t have the script and these pages were drawn back between 1994-95. I could be wrong, but I think the story’s gist was Dynamo is visited by Iron Maiden, a bad-guy character yet the two have a tortured, ongoing love affair. She shows up while Dynamo is sleeping, then they have a nice moment together, he tries to convince her of something, she rejects his offer, and leaps outside his apartment window onto her awaiting helicopter. I don’t know how the story connected to the larger jam issue, as I didn’t get an entire script to read, just those of the pages I was hired to do. Jon: Did you have other dealings with Penthouse, besides that short story and these three pages? Jordan: I only had the dealings mentioned. I caught George at the beginning of his erratic behavior and I saw the writing on the wall, opting to keep my distance a bit. Occasionally I popped in to see if there was a job laying around I could do, but that was the extent of it. Like I said, George was a character. He was enjoying having a bit of power at Penthouse, and I think he got drunk on it. This might happen to a lot of people, but unfortunately, in the end, it got the better of him and lead to his suicide. His is a tragic tale to say the least, and may George rest in peace.

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T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents Animated? In a letter to CBA V.1, #15 (featuring LOCs commenting on the preceding “Tower Comics: Years of Thunder” issue), Dan DiDio, today Vice-President–Editorial of DC Comic, revealed a little known T-Agents fact: “In 1996, ABC Children’s Entertainment optioned T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents [from John Carbonaro] and commissioned Marv Wolfman and Craig Miller to develop the property as a Saturday morning children’s animated series.” Here we speak with Marv, along with a few more comments from Dan, on this fascinating, if ill-fated, project.

Dan DiDio

Marv Wolfman Marvin Arthur Wolfman was born on May 13, 1946, in Brooklyn, New York, and raised on Long Island. He attended the High School of Art & Design, Queens College. From early on, Marv was involved in comics fandom, producing fanzines and frequenting the offices of DC and Marvel in the ’60s. With best friend Len Wein, he broke into the field as a writer for DC’s anthology books. While Marv did serve as Marvel’s editor-in-chief for a spell in the ’70s, he is predominately known as a prolific, multiple awardwinning scripter for innumerable companies, best regarded as creator of Blade and writer of Tomb of Dracula, Crisis on Infinite Earths, and the ’80s revitalization of the Teen Titans. He has also had a fruitful parallel career in animation, and today lives in Tarzana, California, with his wife, Noel. This interview conducted by e-mail in June 2005. Jon B. Cooke: I assume you read T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents as a kid, Marv. What was your impression of the Tower books? Marv Wolfman: I loved T-Agents, my favorite being NoMan. I bought every one of the Tower books (except for Tippy Teen), and I

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Left Dynamo character presentation for animated show pitch. Art by Tom Grummett.

Dan DiDio is a native of Brooklyn and graduate of Brooklyn College. After an extensive career in television (where he worked for CBS and notably as ABC’s executive director for children’s programming, as well a senior vice-president of Mainframe Entertainment), in 2002, with no formal experience in the comics industry, Dan joined DC Comics as editorial vice-president, where he remains. Though an essential player in two “almost” T-Agents projects—a ’90s ABC cartoon show and DC’s aborted comic-book revival in ‘03—Dan declined to be interviewed for this tome (though he kindly shared the Tom Grummett artwork gracing these pages). However, in 2001, prior to joining DC, Dan did write an informative letter of comment to CBA regarding the Tower issue, excerpted here. Dan DiDio: In 1996, ABC Children’s Entertainment optioned T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents and commissioned Marv Wolfman and Craig Miller to develop the property as a Saturday morning children’s series. The basic premise remained the same with one major change being that the team leader, NoMan, was controlled by the 13-yearold grandson of Dr. Dunn, Wally Crandall. The team, of course, was unaware that the young boy had assumed the role of his respected grandfather. Remember, this was for Saturday morning. Other changes included an African-American woman assuming the helmet of Menthor and a Native American woman as Raven. In this version, the winged Raven was the only member with natural powers. A full bible, pilot outline and some fine designs, by Tom Grummett, were prepared for the series. But

before they could get to script, Disney (the new owners of ABC) passed on the property in favor of projects they were developing in their own studio. It was one of my favorite projects and was developed to compete with cartoons like X-Men that were ruling the ratings at the time. But instead of a television series, we have just one more footnote in the troubled history of such a promising project.

This page NoMan and fellow T-Agent character presentations for animated show pitch. Art by Tom Grummett.

actually went to one of the legendary Rutland masquerades dressed as No-Man. The comics may not have been as action-filled as the early Marvels, but they had charm and a unique viewpoint I really loved. I visited their offices once, but never got a chance to speak to anyone. Jon: Had you ever had an interest in seeing the characters revived after their disappearance? Marv: I read a few of the newer versions of T-Agents, but to be honest, I didn’t think anyone captured the original style. It could be that it was so much of its time that it couldn’t be duplicated easily. Jon: How did you get involved in the animation proposal? Marv: As I say, I was a huge T-Agents fan. The big honcho over at ABC Children’s TV in the mid-1990s, a man named Dan DiDio— wonder whatever happened to him?—mentioned he had been a fan, too. Immediately, Craig Miller, my animation producing partner in Wolfmill Entertainment, and I located John Carbonaro, who had the rights, and made a deal with him to represent and develop T-Agents for ABC. Craig and I had just developed, sold, co-executive produced, and co-story edited 52 episodes of the animated series Pocket Dragon Adventures. Dan had a few ideas he wanted to see in the new pitch and we made them. John wasn’t too thrilled by some of the ideas… one, I think, was making Raven into a woman… but if memory serves, he went along with us on this one. John’s a good guy and he was protecting the characters he owned, sometimes, I think, to the point of not being able to sell them later on. But John loved those characters and I liked and still like him. At any rate, we made a few other changes, too, that ABC asked for, and if memory serves, we agreed with almost all of Dan’s ideas. We weren’t doing the comic but

an animated version, and for what could be done on TV at that point, I thought we bridged the comics to the new T-Agents series as best as could be done. Dan went on to run Mainframe Animation, where I worked with him on a number of shows. He is now, of course, a vice-president at DC Comics. Jon: Was there a presentation made and, if so, were you involved in the pitch? Marv: Craig and I wrote the bible and pitched it to Dan. Tom Grummet did the art for the bible, by the way. We were given the okay and worked up the outline for the pilot episode. The only reason that the show never made it to air is that after it was bought—ABC and Dan liked what Wolfmill did—Disney purchased ABC Television, and abruptly cancelled the entire season that the network had just greenlit. A second development I sold to ABC was also cancelled (as well as everything else), and that was a live-action science-fiction show. Jon: Do you still have affection for the characters? Would you like to write T-Agents someday? Marv: I would love to. I have great affection for the characters. They may no longer be “original,” but they were fun, and the possibility still exists to do good stories with them. Jon: In retrospect, how do the T-Agents stand the test of time? What is your assessment of the work of Wallace Wood and company? Marv: The original comics are still fun. They are, of course, dated, but when you look at them now you have to put yourself back in that time period. I still love the innocence of the characters and the attempts to do really fun stuff that nobody else was trying to do.

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2003: The “Almost” New T-Agents In early 2003, the announcement was made. Due to the unexpected success of the DC Archive editions reprinting the original T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents run, the publisher of Superman had reached an agreement with T-Agents trademark owner John Carbonaro for DC Comics to produce an on-going monthly series starring the legendary characters. Planned for summer release, The New T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents was helmed by editor Dan DiDio (who had guided ABC Television to license the T-Agents in 1996 for a planned Saturday morning cartoon show, aborted when the network was purchased by Disney), and he hired Marc Andreyko (scripter), Manuel Garcia (penciler), Jimmy Palmiotti (inker), and cover artist J.G. Jones. (Prior to Andreyko and company, Argentine artist brothers Max and Sebastian Fiumara, reportedly had worked on a series bible—said to have been influenced by Marvel’s ultra-violent series, The Ultimates—as well as finished a first issue, though the latter was rejected by either DC or Carbonaro.) Alas, as two issues of The New T-Agents were ready to go to press, the plug was pulled due to a disagreement between DC and Carbonaro…. Begging the question: What’s next for our fave agents of T.H.U.N.D.E.R.? My advice is to stay tuned, faithful fans, ’cause Dynamo and his super-powered brethren are obviously the heroes who never stay dead!

Marc Andreyko was born on June 20, 1970, and he grew up in Mentor, Ohio, a suburb of Cleveland. He received his BA in Theatre Directing at Kent State University. Though he had worked at the northeast Ohio shop, Comics and Collectibles, as a 12-year-old, the writer cites his first real job as an agents’ assistant at a Cleveland talent/modeling agency). Marc broke into comics scripting fellow Ohio resident, artist P. Craig Russell’s one-shot “redubbing” of PCR’s Doctor Strange Annual #1 [1976], retitled as “What Is It That Disturbs You, Stephen?” [Oct. ’97]. His comics work includes Torso (with Brian Michael Bendis); Casefiles: Sam & Twitch (Image); Manhunter (DC); Blade, Wolverine ’99, The Supernaturals (all Marvel); Black Sun (WildStorm); The Lost (Caliber); and Castlevania (IDW). Proudest of his writing on Manhunter, The Lost and Torso, a three-way tie, he currently calls Los Angeles home. Marc was interviewed by e-mail on Aug. 1, 2005. Jon B. Cooke: When did you first encounter T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents? What were your impressions? Marc Andreyko: My first exposure to the them was in the Deluxe Comics version. I fell in love with the characters and eventually sought out the Wood originals. When I first got into them, it was because of the great costume designs and, when I found out they had been around for decades, I relished the quest to find out as much about them as I could. Jon: How did you get The New T-Agents gig?

Marc: At the San Diego Comic-Con a few years back, I was at the upstairs bar at the Hyatt with my pal, Ben Raab. While I was buying drinks, Ben sat down at a table with Dan DiDio, and I joined them (not knowing who Dan was at this point). We started talking about comics (big shocker, eh?) and I began pontificating about the industry. The talk got towards favorites and, after realizing who I was talking to, I asked Dan about T-Agents. He said he was looking for a creative team for the book and that I should contact him after the con. I did. He called me back. We brainstormed. And the rest is history… albeit, a secret history…. Jon: Were you enthusiastic about getting the assignment? Marc: Oh, yeah. I was beside myself! It was my first DC assignment and a revival of characters I loved! What’s not to like? Jon: What was your specific take on the team? Marc: The basic premise is that people all over the world start exhibiting super-powers and no one knows why. The world governments look at all these new powered folks as a threat, the human equivalent of rogue nuclear weapons, so the United Nations steps in. With the U.S. as a driving force, the T-Agents are formed as a sort of global police to either neutralize, preemptively strike, or recruit the super-powered. Jon: How did the “new” team differ from the Wood version? Marc: Well, out of respect for Wallace Wood, we changed the civilian names of all of them. (The originals were named after pals of his). And, obviously, there were lots of plot 164

Left: Cover , The New T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1 (unpublished). Art by J.G. Jones.

Marc Andreyko

Right & opposite page bottom left: The New T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents character designs. Art by Manuel Garcia (pencils) & Jimmy Palmiotti (inks).

changes, but we were determined to keep the book tonally like the original. Jon: How much work did you accomplish, and where did you want to go with the series? Marc: I had completed up to #4 when the plug was pulled. I had huuuge plans for the series. I think I had loosely plotted up thru #36! The saddest missed opportunity for me was a “cross-over” event with the DC universe (as New T-Agents was not set in the DCU), something that has never been done before. It was a cool idea, one that I hope can get used somewhere else one day. Jon: I read in an online interview that you intended to blow up the Mall of America in the first issue. Were there any other spectacular happenings you had in store? Marc: The second big storyline was gonna take place on the U.S./Mexico border, and was inspired by the murders of over 400 women in Juarez, Mexico. The killer was one of the creepiest things I could think of, but, alas, was never drawn…. Jon: Can you also reveal just a little bit of your takes on the characters? What set your Dynamo, Lightning, Menthor, Raven, NoMan, etc., apart from the classic versions? Marc: Dynamo was the son of the U.S. general running the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. project. And his dad was none too happy about that. Lightning was a guy who knew going in that the lightning powers could, and probably would, kill him, but he had a big secret that rendered the fear of death moot. NoMan was an old German doctor (who escaped Nazi Germany and now worked for the U.S.

government) who used clones, not robot bodies, to house his consciousness. And each clone had different super-powers (because the team would take DNA from their opponents and the good doctor would splice the gene into his super-clones). Menthor… well, he was messed-up. And it’s a long backstory. (Trust me, it was cool.) Raven: The Hart to Hart of the team. The first Raven was a spy who would have been killed by issue #4, and his wife would’ve taken up the mantle. But, as is the norm in comics, nothing was as obvious as it seemed. Jon: What did you think of (penciler) Manuel Garcia and (inker) Jimmy Palmiotti’s work? Marc: Manuel and Jimmy did a killer job on the book! Thankfully, Manuel seems to have risen from the ashes fairly well and is exclusive at Marvel now. That makes me happy. And Jimmy? Well, if he keeps at it, he might have a career in this biz! Jon: Were you disappointed when the plug was pulled? Marc: It was, without a doubt, my biggest disappointment in comics. I still get sad if I really think about all of the unused story potential. Jon: Have you been able to incorporate any ideas originally developed for The New T-Agents into subsequent work? Marc: Not really. Most of the ideas were specific to the T-Agents world I was building, so they would require major alterations to use elsewhere.

Bottom right: Cover thumbnail, The New T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #2. Art by J.G. Jones.

DC Comics’ T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Hype! Though apparently two issues of this announced revival were completed and solicited in Spring 2003, plans were scrapped after T-Agents owner John Carbonaro and DC Comics failed to reach an understanding. Adhering to a nondisclosure agreement, John, Dan DiDio (DC VP who helmed the proposed series) and DC would not comment on the subject. The initial ’03 DC press release is quoted below: “One of the best-loved super-teams of the Silver-Age is reborn for a new era in The New T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1! The series hits the ground running this June in an all-new, monthly series that takes the classic Tower Comics characters and sets them against a dire threat to all of humanity!

“‘This series will feature all the classic characters from the original series, but while the names Dynamo, Lightning and No-Man remain the same, everything around them has changed,’ says Dan DiDio, DC vice-president of editorial, and editor of The New T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. ‘We’re taking a more contemporary look at these heroes, their motivations, and the world around them.’ “Operating outside the jurisdiction or boundaries of any one nation, the New [T-Agents] seek world peace, and the coming Age of the AlphaHuman is a threat to mankind that only they can fight! But can [they] save a world in constant turmoil? Expect non-stop action and adventure as the tales of the New [T-Agents] unfold!”

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J.G. Jones

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Bottom left: Gruesome sequence from unpublished The New T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1. Art by Manuel Garcia (pencils) & Jimmy Palmiotti (inks).

Jeffrey G. Jones was born on April 24, 1962, in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and he attended Louisiana State University (receiving a

BFA), and Albany State University (earning a MFA), where he subsequently taught painting. J.G.’s first break in comics came through Jim Shooter, with work appearing in Defiant’s Dark Dominion and Broadway’s Fatale. After freelancing for Crusade, the artist made an impact with future Marvel editor-inchief, Joe Quesada, then head of Event Comics, who would assign J.G. his breakthrough work on Black Widow. Today, the artist, who resides in West Orange, New Jersey, is perhaps best known for that mini-series, Marvel Boy, and Wanted. J.G. was interviewed by e-mail in June 2005. Jon B. Cooke: Did you know of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents by Wallace Wood and company in the ’60s? J.G. Jones: I honestly had never seen nor heard of T-Agents before I was offered the cover job for New T-Agents, although I love Wally Wood’s work, and consider him underappreciated today. Jon: How did you get the New T-Agents cover gig? J.G.: Dan DiDio at DC called me up and asked if I would be interested. He sent me some of the old stuff from the ’60s, and pitched the

Left: The New T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #2 cover (unpublished). Art by J.G. Jones.

Jon: Given the chance that they would actually get published, would you like to tackle T-Agents as scripter someday? Marc: Absolutely. But only if I was guaranteed that my stories would see print this time! Jon: What’s your overall assessment of the concepts—both the original and “new” versions—and potential of the characters? Marc: Well, the overall conceit behind the original T-Agents is a great one, and has led to such descendants as The Authority, The Ultimates… heck, almost all team books have things in them that the T-Agents did first! My take on the group wasn’t so much a revisionist approach, but simply contemporizing the concepts created by the Wood team… with a few twists, of course!

Right: Cover rough, The New T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1. Art by J.G. Jones.

update of the characters. It sounded like fun to me, so I jumped onboard. Jon: Did you paint just the two covers? J.G.: Only the two were completed. I have a small, full-color study for #3, but the series was pulled before I ever got to paint the third cover. Jon: Were you disappointed when the series fell through? J.G.: Yeah, I was very disappointed. I was just getting to know the characters and starting to have a lot of fun with them, and then— POOF!—the whole thing is gone up in smoke. I can only imagine how frustrating it

must have been for the people who were more involved: the writer, artist, and editors. I know they put a lot of work into it, and to see it stillborn must be infuriating. Jon: Would you like to return to the characters someday? J.G.: You know, the characters were a lot of fun, but I don’t spend a lot of time fretting over what could have been or what might be. I’m focused on the projects I have on my plate at the moment. If the opportunity to work on T-Agents arise again, my participation will be contingent upon whatever else I have going at the time.

Death of the DC & New T-Agents Deal In late 2003, online columnist Rich Johnston sought the story behind the nonappearance of The New T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents, which had been scheduled to debut the previous Spring. Courtesy of Rich, here are excerpts from his two pieces on the subjects, which appeared as installments of his ongoing column, “Lying in the Gutters” at <www.comicbookresources.com>. The following first appeared on Oct. 27, 2003, under the header, “Carbon Copies.” It appears here courtesy of Rich and is ©2005 Rich Johnston. So what did happen with DC and The New T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents? I’ve been chasing different versions of this story and how the project collapsed for a few months now. Here’s how it all boils down. John Carbonaro, who owns the rights to Wallace Wood’s Silver-Age super-hero team, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents, is described as both “dedicated and principled” or “obsessed and overly-moral,” depending on who you talk to. He’d licensed the rights to DC Comics, who [are] publishing Archive editions of the old comics. And there was a new series in the cards. I understand Carbonaro began to suspect something was up with DC over a year ago when [DC VP and New T-Agents editor] Dan Didio missed a couple of meetings. When Carbonaro a few weeks later saw the first artwork for The New T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents, he

could see why. It was a little “heavier” than he’d been expecting. “Authority-lite” was the label some in the industry had given it. Then the “bible” arrived, detailing the many harsher, edgier changes DC was making, and John kicked off big style. The only specific example I’ve heard is John objecting to the character NoMan’s additional (and disposable in battle) bodies being clones instead of robots. Tempestuous meetings were had. John said he’d pull the license. Didio said he didn’t want the license if he had to do it any other way, that anything else was stuck in the past. And there they left it. The license was pulled and the creative costs on the series project to date were added on to the costs of the Archive editions, reducing heavily the resulting payments made to John Carbonaro. Which probably means DC will never have the chance to publish more T-Agents. But will anyone take it on now? [As a follow-up, Rich’s following column appeared on Nov. 10, 2003, at the CBR Web site, under the headline “Thunder Cats.”] …I understand deal-broker and comics writer Michael Uslan was in the process of going around to a variety of comic-book license owners, looking to lock-up their works for possible movie treatments. The deal with John Carbonaro and DC over T-Agents was that the first archive volume and The New T-Agents series would come out at about the same time.

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But, at the time, DC didn’t have anyone… jumping up and down to do the book. However, when Dan DiDio was brought in as a new vice president of DC, this was to be DiDio’s first major project there. DiDio did have some knowledge of T-Agents, having worked with the Marv Wolfman animated-series proposal to ABC a few years before. However, DiDio didn’t show anything to Carbonaro until a very short time before some operational deadline, meaning that pretty much DC was going to blow their contract deadline for publishing the first issue of The New TAgents series. The Fiumara Brothers, who worked on the series bible and the first issue confess to being heavily influenced by The Ultimates. They left (were dropped off) the book after they’d completed pencils and inks of the first issue. And another team were brought in, but it wasn’t to be. John Carbonaro proposed that DC publish the unpublished stories originally supposed to have been published by Omni Comix, so DC could have had something published by the original contract deadline, even that DC’s revamped T-Agents be called The NEW TAgents, and have four stories of the leftover Omni stuff be the T-Agents, but that went nowhere. And unless there can be an Alan Moore “firewall” style deal between Carbonara and DC, nothing’s going to happen there… DC declined to comment.

John Carbonaro’s T-Agents After the untimely demise in 1969 of its initial run, the first T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents revival was helmed by John Carbonaro, an accountant with a love for comic books and whose only prior publishing experience had been in 1971 with Phase One (which is discussed in more detail via sidebar in this book’s JC Comics section), a brilliant fanzine-slash-prozine with high production values, co-published with Sal Quartuccio. As examined in previous pages, John purchased the trademark and copyrights of the T-Agents characters and Tower-published comics in the late ’70s; also self-published the return of the characters in the early ’80s; edited the Archie Comics-published series; owns the Deluxe Comics material (after a long court battle with former friend, Deluxe publisher David M. Singer), as well as all subsequent incarnations of the legendary super-heroes. Because there has been perennial interest in the properties (including everything from role-playing games to cartoon shows to video games to major motion pictures), John has been involved in myriad dealings—some realized, many aborted—and this catch-all section discusses some of those almost-T-Agents projects, as well as giving us John’s final assessment regarding what Woody’s T-Agents mean to him as caretaker, his constant struggle to maintain their integrity, and his view of what heroism is all about. when it was all over, Marvel had been sold twice over the duration. The new owners decided not to license T-Agents. So I won the legal battle, but lost the money war, all the while Singer was busy spending investors’ money. Go figure. Jon: Have you read Jim Shooter's comments on deciding against pursuing the license?[See sidebar on pg. ???] John: Yes, I read many of Shooter’s comments, but I had dealt with both Tower Publishing and the estate of Wallace Wood. Woody had said, as far as he was concerned, all rights were sold to Tower. I bought those rights and had those copyrights in hand. The estate made an announcement to that effect, which was published in The Comics Buyer’s Guide, and I have it in writing from the estate, as well. Gee, what more could I do? Even if Shooter was correct, I still had dotted my i’s, crossed my t’s, and paid my legal representatives (including a former rep named David M. Singer)… I possessed a signed receipt from Tower, had a copyrighted paper trail, and now had won the lawsuit. Later, armed with all this, I was asked by Jim to license the characters, but it never panned out. To tell you the truth, I would have been happy to see T-Agents under Jim Shooter’s guidance. When you’re top guy, you get a lot of nasty hits. (I think even [current Marvel editor-in-chief] Joe Quesada gets undeserved slams, and he also seems to be a sharp guy. The hits I receive might be sometimes deserved… but not always! What are the laws of probability on me always being the erring party? The many fans who blame me for things going wrong simply don’t know of people stealing money, contracts being overlooked, or even editors being ignored. I had one artist send art directly

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Left: Intended as cover for the first issue of a new Dynamo (as yet unrealized) series. Art by James E. Lyle (based on idea by Lou Manna).

Jon B. Cooke: Were you always seeking ways to have the license optioned during the ’80s, especially considering the boom in television animation at the time? John Carbonaro: Yes, I would have been happy to be a small fish in a big pond in the comic books. Len Wein told me he said to [DC VP-Editorial] Dick Giordano that DC didn’t need T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. Well, I agree. DC didn’t need T-Agents, but they sure as heck could have helped! After Wally Wood’s T-Agents, Keith Giffen went to DC, turned the Justice League into a U.N. super-group. Maxwell Lord replaced the Chief. What made it a hit was Giffen’s talent, Kevin Maguire’s art, and DC’s marketing. I took T-Agents to Archie Goodwin, and he said that David Singer had been there days before and showed Archie a legal contract allegedly made with me (but it actually was just a letter of intent to form a contract). But what Singer had failed to explain to Archie was that it was null and void, partly because Singer had blown his end of the deal, due to an overdue check. Goodwin told me Shooter wanted to use T-Agents not in Epic, but in the regular Marvel universe. I nearly fell out of my chair, thinking, “This is finally it!” Then Archie told me I had to first clear up the legal situation with Singer. But Singer ignored letters from my lawyer, so we had to file suit against him. Singer’s only hope was that I didn’t have enough money to sue, but we showed him the copyright registration of Tower’s original books and he freaked. You see, while he told Marvel the characters were his because of the “contract,” he had informed his backers that T-Agents were in public domain. In the end, sure, I won, but the legal situation took time and,

Right: Panel details from unpublished NoMan story. Art by Manuel Gomez (pencils) & Mostafa Moussa (inks). Bottom right: Culled from a Web site, a ’90s promotional page for unrealized T-Agents title by Rob Liefeld.

to an inker, bypassing the editor, even after I told him that it had to get the editor’s approval first, but he still sent it and never told me. When I found out, that was the end of that book, but everyone pointed their finger at me, but they didn’t know that the artist had changed the story, first saying the story as scripted didn’t “work” for him, then coming up with an excuse that he changed it because he “lost” the story notes. So I told him that while my phone still worked, he wouldn’t… not on T-Agents, anyway. Jon: What other deals have fallen through? John: Let’s see… as people know, I own the rights to Wally Wood’s T-Agents. After I sued Deluxe out of business (though I didn’t mean to! I just had attorney Barry Werbin, and they didn’t… so HA!), I turned to Apple Comics and they thought I would package it for them. They tried to hire Marv Wolfman over my earlier request to get Mark Verheiden. Of course, Marv was too busy and recommended Mike W. Barr, who lambasted my female Menthor with the mind of a man imprinted onto her brain. Anyhow, Apple never got it together, so I forwent their penalty, so I could go with George Caragonne. George was a mess because of drugs and there may have been other problems between himself and Penthouse. He committed suicide. Because of the chaos created by George and difficulties caused by the publisher, the T-Agents material—work I owned—languished in the Penthouse offices. We argued over its return as I was going to go with Liefeld of Image. Eventually, I licensed them the rights to do four issues, plus a “number zero,” so Rob could do new books. Jon: Has T-Agents ever been optioned by Hollywood? John: Many have asked about the characters and I eventually went with [movie producer] Michael Uslan of [the 1989 film] Batman fame. (We will soon meet and discuss renewing the option.) I know that Michael can do it on a major level and bring justice to the characters. He’s a cool guy and a comic-book person, with credentials as a writer and historian, and he’s recently donated a ton of his own comics to a university library. He is the go-to guy to translate comic-book super-heroes to the movie screen…. Whether he likes it or not, he’ll be the one to do a T-Agents movie because I know where he and [Uslan assistant] F.J. are hiding the bodies! Umm, did I say that out loud? Groan. Jon: Here’s a list of publishers with whom

you’ve discussed possible revivals. Can you give us some insight into the respective negotiations? First: Marvel Comics? John: What can I say about them? We almost had a deal when they were going strong, before they were sold to Perlman. They told me they didn’t think they could put out a book that would please me, which was strange since they never asked me or suggested any ideas! Someone must have told them something. Like I said, I felt they were an outfit who could do a line-up—T-Agents, Dynamo, NoMan, a team-up book—and do it right, where I could make small amounts of money that could add up over time, as well as please readers and the bottom line. (Heck, today I would settle for a crossover!) Jon: Marvel’s Epic line? John: I didn’t initially approach the new imprint as I was tied up with DC Comics for a year or so. Later, when I asked [Epic editor] Archie Goodwin about T-Agents being published as an Epic title, I was told that Shooter instead wanted them shoe-horned into the Marvel universe, and I’ve already discussed how my problems with Singer axed that idea. Jon: DC Comics in the 1980s? John: As I said, Dick Giordano had a proposal on his desk, but Len Wein advised against DC picking up the license. Jon: Image Comics? John: We’ll get to the Liefeld deal in a minute, but let me first talk about something: There’s no arguing that publishers like Image and Wildstorm have been successful putting out comic books. As businessmen, you have to give people like Jim Lee and Todd McFarlane credit, but their approach to the material as creators is not something I want to see replicated with T-Agents. I’m quite happy with the version Wallace Wood and company originated, and while I don’t want to see the characters always mired in the 1960s, I think a mainstream approach would work best… good, solid contemporary comics that can be enjoyed by readers of any age. I have no objection to using modern story-telling techniques, but I have no interest in seeing a Vertigo version of the characters, where limbs are severed, Dynamo becomes the new Bionic Man, and where the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agent Commandos are all torn in half… not me. I simply prefer the mainstream approach of the regular Marvel or DC titles, or

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that fell through. Well, Liefeld felt he had to do a different version since he couldn’t use the Gulacy stuff. Unfortunately, once again, a new publisher felt he had carté blanche to vandalize Wood’s T-Agents. (Come on! Wallace Wood was a sharp guy, one who is a cornerstone of the comics industry! Sure, start a new riff, but why throw away his initial concepts, the essence of the characters’ appeal? Ain’t that a no-brainer?) Rob put out that ad without checking with me. He said he received plots from Jim Valentino, and implied that I should just accept it (so I was told by Matt Hawkins at the time). Another problem was that he had just made a deal to do the Marvel “Heroes Reborn” stuff. I requested that T-Agents be released prior to the Fall debut of his Avengers and Captain America, as I figured I would be small potatoes compared to that re-launch. Extreme said fine, but later I was told that T-Agents were going to be part of an anthology book due at the end of December. Since Rob was tight with Marvel, he tried to have them sublicense T-Agents from him, but never told me nor did he reach an agreement with Marvel. I realized that this situation wasn’t going to work. Rob didn’t seem to want to work with anyone but to do whatever he wanted with other people’s characters. As you mentioned, Rob’s version made radical changes to the group. Later I learned that in the advertisement, that wasn’t a sevenfoot tall Dynamo, but rather his son standing on a step—wait a second! His son gets the belt?—and the buxom woman in the Lightning costume was the daughter of the original. Plus a female Menthor was going to be added… but didn’t I have a female Menthor in my books, the child of Undersea Agent? It was just a mess. Jon: Obviously, T-Agents have a convoluted history, among them having a number of false starts. Do you think there’s a curse that comes with the characters? John: I think the voodoo dolls I bought in New Orleans should take care of that! Seriously, it’s said that if you build a better mousetrap, people will beat a path to your door to buy it. I think, in my case, some people have instead tried to steal my “mousetrap.” To see the characters properly portrayed, I just have to find the right people.

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Left: Splash page of unpublished Dynamo story. Art by Jeff Zornow (who dedicated the work to Joe Orlando, one of his School of Visual Arts instructors.

even the books published by Dark Horse. [Editor’s note: John’s comments on Dark Horse’s unauthorized use of T-Agents in a 1987 issue of Boris the Bear is discussed in the section entitled “Some Blunders Over T.H.U.N.D.E.R.” in this book.] Jon: Comico? John: Well, I knew those guys, but never made any deal with them, but I did give some advice to one of their top creators: When I met Matt Wagner in the early ’80s—he was doing Grendel at the time—he mentioned wanting to do a book about the legend of King Arthur, but DC had just released Camelot 3000, so he was depressed. But I explained that Camelot 3000 was DC’s copyrighted version of a folk story, a centuries-old myth that was clearly in public domain. If his concept was substantially different, I said, then Matt could do his own copyrighted version. Years later, Matt came up at a convention and thanked me. He explained that Mage was his version of King Arthur. While I was grateful for his thanking me, to do Mage, Matt had stopped writing and drawing Grendel, which I enjoyed! (My only consolation was that I was able to purchase the first page of original art from the first “Grendel” story. But when Grendel became popular, I did a smart thing and returned that page to Matt, figuring that he wasn’t a struggling artist anymore and would like to have his very first page back… Hey, Matt, when are you going to do that “Dynamo” story you said you wanted to do? Sheesh!) Jon: Apple Comics? John: Well, Apple Comics tried to package T-Agents with a writer who wanted to change everything, thinking he had carté blanche and could do better than Wallace Wood. So that was a problem and there ended up being not enough time for them to fulfill their end of contract, and we parted ways amicably. Then George Caragonne started on what would later be known as the Omni Comix version. Jon: I've seen a Rob Liefeld-drawn T-Agents promo ad, featuring a top-heavy female Lightning. What was that all about? John: I think that ad appeared during “Babe Month” (Babewatch?) or something. We were in discussion about Extreme finally printing the unpublished Gulacy material that Penthouse was holding on to, but

Right: Panel detail from Andor/T-Agents story intended for Penthouse Comix’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #0, circa 1995. Art by Paris Cullins (pencils) & Will Nyberg (inks). Bottom right: Panels from Elvira Mistress of the Dark #149. Art by Ronn Sutton (pencils) & Al Vey (inks).

Look, I know I’ve made my own mistakes, without the need for others chipping in. I just couldn’t stop them all from making their mistakes. If I had sued a certain distributor, Singer would have been unable to sell his illegal comics. If my lawyer had not contradicted himself in court with the judge getting angry over that error, T-Agents would have been a Marvel comic book in the ’80s. If Dick Giordano had decided to do a DC version of T-Agents, we would have had a shot back in 1984. I figure a title published by either one of the Big Two would be a nice tribute to T-Agents, to Wallace Wood and friends, and all the others who contributed to the characters over the years. Over my almost 30-year association with T-Agents, I’ve gone through some rough times, but I’m determined to stay along for the ride, letting guys like you do the actual work. Thanks to guys who have kept the flame burning, including Bill Pearson, Steve Skeates, Lou Silverstone, George Pérez, Dan Adkins, Tuska, Gil Kane, Mike Sekowsky, Bonanno, Will Blyberg, Paul Gulacy, Jim Lyle, Dave Cockrum, Mark Texeira, J.G. Jones, Steve Ditko, and even colorists like Barry Grossman, John Wilcox, and Arthur Suydam, plus letterers like Rod Ollerenshaw, and many others, have all contributed honorable work to the enduring legacy of

T-Agents. How can such success ever be a curse? Me, I’m just a bean counter trying to hold it together for the group to one day reemerge as a mainstream comic book. Jon: Obviously, in some negotiations there has been a not inconsiderable degree of frustration, often on both sides (between the licensor and licensee). Do you perceive a pattern? John: Other than what I’ve mentioned, yes. Many people are sincere when they come to negotiate contracts, but they often also want, when it comes to the final execution, to do things differently than what had been agreed to. I can understand that to a certain degree, but if I try to get them back on track—back to what was the original agreement— they often say that the problem is with me. Thus is it me trying to get them to do what we agreed in (at least) an overall view? Or is it them trying to deviate from the plan? There are many of them and only one of me, so I’m sure you’ll most often hear that I was the problem. (So says Darth Carbonaro!) Jon: Are you difficult to have deal with, John? Why so many false starts, dashed plans, and complaints? John: Look, I’ve seen just everything when it comes to T-Agents: I received finished story pages that depicted the wrong hero captured;

Elvira and the W.I.N.D.Y. Agents Will the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents parodies ever cease? Richard Howell tells us that the lead story in Elvira Mistress of the Dark #149 [September 2005], published by Claypool Comics, is a 15-page take-off on the old T.H.U.N.D.E.R Agents set-up, with singlepowered super-agents attempting to halt a master villain’s plan for world domination. (So what else is new, eh?) In this case, the master villain is metal-clad femme fatale Brass Girda, and she's using her Hallucigenatron to make

everyone think that an invasion of “monsters, robots, and saucermen from outer space” is happening, though it’s all just illusion. Since Elvira is immune to such tricks, the W.I.N.D.Y. Agents (Worldwide Investigative Neuro Defense 171

Yeoman) recruit her to help with the effort to stop Brass Girda. The W.I.N.D.Y. Agents include Gizmo, Sno-Man, Blowhard, and Scooter. Script by Janet Hetherington, art by Ronn Sutton and Al Vey, edited by Richard Howell.

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Left: Double-page spread sequence from unpublished Dynamo comic. Art by Lou Manna (pencils) & James E. Lyle (inks).

the contemporary world of ultraviolent and asocial comic books? John: Sure! Just as Spider-Man, Superman, and others make it just fine. But I would say that after a future incarnation of T-Agents have a run of books under their (Thunder)belts, I could imagine an Ultimates-type version could be done. I’m not against a more extreme approach, but only after they’ve been established as the good guys. Jon: Have T-Agents been a burden or a blessing to you personally? Do you ever imagine simply selling a powered-up Dynamo knocked-out by a the characters and moving onto other things? John: They’ve been both a blessing and a burden actually. If some piece of metal (whereas he should be able to take the whole blast); guys had lived up to their side of the bargain, like my one-time legal a Tyrannosaurus Rex hiding underwater, waiting for a signal from rep I’ve already mentioned, I would’ve been able to cheerfully hand people who didn’t realize the dinosaur would drown during the wait; a scene where a villain cuts the agents literally in half, showing them the characters off, get back to my career as an accountant, and had a somewhat normal life. dismembered, lying in pools of their own blood, and they say it’s my At this point, I doubt a huge offer will come in, so I’ll just fault for not allowing that material to be published. Well, duh! Yeah, it is my fault! Some of that stuff is just plain wrong to do… some of it continue to license them, but not to whoever makes the highest bid, is too gross. But people only hear the fact that I stopped material from but the person who offers the highest quality presentation of T-Agents (and hopefully that someone will not ask so many questions!). I being published, but they don’t hear the reasons why the work was almost went with TwoMorrows, but was on the verge of signing with inappropriate. And often incidents get made up or exaggerated and DC Comics, and I missed that opportunity. scorn is heaped on me. Jon: Have T-Agents been particularly profitable for you? In the You need to understand that any money I make from T-Agents ultimate assessment, what have been the assets and the liabilities? comics being produced by other publishers only amount to a few John: (How do you convey hysterical laughter in print?) Not yet. bucks. I fight not for profit, but to keep T-Agents mainstream and sensible, to protect the integrity—and the validity—of the characters, I’ve been at this for 25 years and figure, for the most part, that my heirs will reap some good benefits… but I hope to get the money and staying true to Wallace Wood’s original vision. I shouldn’t have to spend it before they do. Basically, I need a reliable—John can’t spell worry about professional outfits like Marvel and DC making them anti-heroes or amoral or downright villains, all things that they are not. “compatible”!—guy to do the book. The damage those approaches would reap for the characters is simply Jon: What is your biggest mistake in regards to T-Agents? Greatest achievement? not worth the money I’d make in comics, so I can afford to be John: Hmm… mistake… biggest… and I have to pick one? It “difficult” and protective. The T-Agents need to stay true to exactly was probably mentioning in a job interview, where they wanted to hire what Wood and company intended them to be: Mainstream heroes. As for licensing the characters to Hollywood, the money a movie me as an accountant, that I was doing this cool new project that might make me a good deal of money. They were already gun shy, as their company pays is huge in comparison to comics, and—listen, we all last guy left after a month for a job offering more money, so initially have a threshold when it comes to mullah!—I would be much less they were eager to hire me, but backed off when I stupidly brought up difficult to deal with because it’s part and parcel when you make the bargain: They pay you big money and then they can do whatever they my hopes for T-Agents. Other than that, I regret having trusted in some guys. I gave want with the characters, right? I cash the check, have no further say, and am left to only pray that they “do it right.” (Hey, I know exactly jobs to people like Pat Gabriele and Singer, who just turned on me. My greatest achievement? It was to meet and work with the what I am! I’m just not a cheap one, okay?) guys I mentioned. A close second was to hear people say that they felt Hmmm, it’s pretty hard to see out of this big black helmet. the books I edited seemed like Marvel books. I recall David Singer I don’t know how David Prowse did it! Jon: Given your professed distaste for a number of ultra-violent (and, saying at the time that he thought my first attempt was the second best comic he had ever read. (Of course, if Michael Uslan does get a arguably, asocial) renditions of the characters, can T-Agents make it in

Right: Just because we can’t get enough of her, Iron Maiden. Pin-up detail, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #7. Art by Wallace Wood & Dan Adkins.

movie adaptation made, in all likelihood, that will become a high point, no doubt!) Jon: Do you perhaps think you're too possessive of the characters, unable to distance yourself from the “classic” characters and maybe too resistant to new interpretations? If so, do you sometimes wish you could be less protective? John: I’ve read that criticism, and I sometimes think, “Hey, maybe they’re right.” But then I remember that only I know the whole story and I don’t think it plays out that simple. I just try to keep the scripts and art within the bounds of appropriate taste. Right now, for instance, I’m talking to Mat Nastos at Nifty Comics, and I think he might have a nice approach to the material. But so many others just don’t seem to get it. I mean, don’t come knocking and then walk away angry when you refuse to do things sensibly with the characters. And, for me, that becomes a problem because then I’m forced to take the heat and (indirectly perhaps) so does T-Agents. Overall, that makes it harder to get licensing agreements elsewhere. Me, I’m used to it, but I still feel it’s unfair to fans who want to see the characters in print again. Jon: In closing, I’d like to add a personal observation: I first met you, John, on a San Diego trolley car, the morning of my first-ever Comic-Con International, in 1997 or so, and I recall we had a pleasant conversation. Since then, my sporadic dealings with you have always been positive, productive, and mutually respectful. As editor of Comic Book Artist, I certainly am aware of the exploitation and hardship very often imposed by publishers on creative individuals (there's certainly a very shameful aspect to the history of American comic books, in regards to how individuals can be treated by the corporate machine). You've obviously dealt with people most concerned with the bottom line who haven’t given much thought to replicating what has made T-Agents so resonant since 1965—the fact the material was of the highest quality and the approach unpretentious and fun—and I wonder if any difficulties mentioned about dealings with you might be rooted in your possible unwillingness to compromise, less out of stubbornness and more out of fidelity and, yes, loyalty to the characters created by Wood and company. That maybe what’s perceived as your “stubbornness” might be better described as your refusal to compromise and to hold steadfast in protecting the wholesomeness and essence of

what makes these characters such memorable super-heroes…. I guess I'm asking if you're akin to Alex Toth and C.C. Beck, as a guy standing firm in your beliefs, often casting aside profits in favor of staying true to the characters in your charge? John: Ahhh, the crux of the matter lies here, my friend: I’m not trying to be overly possessive as I am sticking to my long range plans. The point isn’t to just sell off licensing rights as quickly as possible, but to thoughtfully option them to a person who will do right by the characters. Look, I rejected an offer by Disney. I recently walked away from a profitable deal, a monthly series published by one of the top outfits, because upon reviewing the first two issues—my approval was contractual—I saw that they were not mainstream, which went against my only requirement. To help them meet deadlines, I even offered the Gulacy books, but I was turned down, told to shut up and take it, and allow T-Agents to be shown in a radically different way to the new generation. So I said no. Regrettably, I’ve had to walk away from a number of deals because of my determination to have the characters survive intact for the long run. People have a right to want their heroes to remain heroes, not endlessly rebooted into becoming something else entirely. People who understand the true appeal of T-Agents—camaraderie, loyalty, self-sacrifice, honor, and selfless heroism—must realize that it’s important that whoever is in charge of these characters must maintain their integrity. Even Iron Maiden, a villainess femme fatale, has a nobility about her (such as when she allowed Dynamo to escape death). I mean, jeepers, isn’t storytelling not just about entertaining readers, but also to impart some wisdom and a moral lesson here and there? In the end, it’s essential to maintain a belief in what makes heroes heroic. If it’s just about the violence and rage and gore, then context is lost and they end up having no meaning and losing all significance. If it’s war for the sake of war, then we all are defeated; that it’s about community not self, about working as a team, not just as an individual. We always need to have faith in the heroic ideal: That good must always strive to triumph over evil, that the weak must eternally be protected by the strong, that true character is born of adversity and struggle, not privilege and power; and forever understand that it’s our responsibility to honor the sacrifice of fallen warriors by waging peace for future generations. Those sentiments, for me, make up the context I read in T-Agents and I think that’s important to protect. (How’s that for a high-falootin’ finish?)

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John A. Carbonaro v. David M. Singer The following article (significantly condensed from its original CBA V.1, #14 appearance) details the tumultuous and ever-deteriorating relationship between one-time friends, JC Comics’ helmsman Carbonaro and Singer, head of Deluxe Comics, which digressed into an eventual lawsuit that was played out between 1984-87. At stake was who would possess the copyrights and trademarks of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. Was the owner Carbonaro, who had approached Wallace Wood in the ’70s, sought out Tower Books, and subsequently cut a deal? Or were the rights, as Singer contended, in the public domain, owned by no single person, but as much Singer’s as anyone else’s? While the full story of the actual court proceedings has yet to be told (deemed far too convoluted and intricate to dwell on in this celebratory tome), investigative writer and associate CBA editor CHRISTOPHER IRVING gives us a fascinating story about ambition, loyalty, and comic books. This threat came at a delicate time for Carbonaro: he was still in a transitional period before his could make good his oral agreement with Dorchester. “Even though [Singer] had worked as my legal rep and knew the confidential information that I gave him as a legal rep, he said, ‘You gave me information as a friend over a hamburger and a Coke. I did that contract for you years ago, so I shouldn’t be held to a fiduciary trust,’” Carbonaro recalled. “He also gave another reason later on that he told people: He believed he was underpaid as a legal rep, although paid what he asked for. So being underpaid, he should not be held to the fiduciary trust, even though he was fully paid and paid what he had requested.” Carbonaro offered to license Singer the Agents for $65,000, an offer Singer brought down to $50,000 and 3% cover price royalties, according to a TCJ article. Carbonaro agreed to a letter of intent, which stated his willingness to license T-Agents to Singer, who could use the letter to help secure investors. Carbonaro, however, claims not to have received an agreed-upon advance deposit, thus invalidating the letter of intent. Singer replied that he was about to make an initial payment but, with the dissolution of the letter, he cancelled the plan. “[Singer needed to make] timely payments for the rights, and he blew that,” Carbonaro recalled. “I felt, in a business fashion, of disengaging from David. It had gone too far; he had threatened me and, in my mind, [that] violated a business trust as well as a friendship (a fiduciary trust); he was trying to force me into something I didn’t want to do. He could have satisfied the conditions if he made the payments. He had excuses for that; he could have borrowed the money… but he didn’t do it, so I told him I’d take it to Marvel.” Upon arriving at the publisher on June 19, ’84, Carbonaro learned Singer had already met with Marvel editor Archie Goodwin, claiming sole ownership of the property. Carbonaro said, “[They] showed me a copy of what he showed them: half of a letter of intent, not earmarking the payment he would have to make. He told them that this letter of intent was a contract (which, by law, it’s not; it was just intent to contract). Marvel, being cautious, said to clear up the legal differences between David and I, and then come back. They wanted to license T-Agents and incorporate them into [the Marvel universe].”

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Left: John A. Carbonaro, Oct. 2004. Courtesy of Mr. Carbonaro.

Through a mutual acquaintance, John A. Carbonaro met with Tower Books president Jeffrey Proctor in late 1980, when Carbonaro obtained an oral agreement to license T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. According to Carbonaro, Tower received a $1,000 check on Apr. 28, ’81. Soon thereafter, he single-handedly resurrected T-Agents for the first time since their cancellation in ’69, by publishing the one-shot JCP Features, and later (in partnership with Archie Comics) launching JC Comics. David Singer, a writer for the comics press, met Carbonaro in ’81. Possessing a law degree (though having not passed any bar exam), Singer was then hired by Carbonaro as a legal consultant. Singer received a check for $450, on May 6, ’82, in return for drafting license agreements with Tower and Archie, as well as other companies approached by Carbonaro. “In early ’81, Carbonaro told me he needed a contract to be negotiated with Tower and asked if I could handle it for him,” Singer wrote in The Comics Journal #101 [Aug. ’85]. “He and I were already friends at that time… I agreed to represent him (not as an attorney, but as his appointed representative) and agreed to take only $450 for my expenses, as well as my time.” Singer denied acting as Carbonaro’s lawyer, claiming it was an informal relationship, for which he did not receive financial compensation for acting as a legal representative, as he “was not an attorney.” Meanwhile, Tower Books underwent a bankruptcy assets sale and, on Aug. 18, 1982, Offset Paperback Manufacturers, Inc., gained rights to T-Agents, which were in turn sold to Dorchester Publishing Co. a week later. Dorchester orally agreed in Dec. ’82 to sell the characters to Carbonaro for $2,000. Carbonaro feels the turning point in their relationship came when Singer approched him with a business proposition. “David wanted to get involved in a deal with some buddy in San Antonio [who] convinced him that they would be able to sell comic books to the Armed Forces [through PXs] on a non-returnable basis. That would give them a fortune… [but] I refused. I thought it was a scam, and one of those too-good-to-be-true things. David said that he was going to go to [Dorchester], based on information I gave him, and purchase the T-Agents, rather than licensing them from me.”

Any amicable relationship between the two men had, needless to say, disintegrated completely. Matters were further complicated when, in Nov. ’84, Singer’s Deluxe Comics began publication of Wally Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. At that time, Singer claimed that T-Agents had been in the public domain since, in the first place, Tower hadn’t correctly copyrighted the series in its original incarnation. While Tower’s T-Agents #1 did include a copyright notice on the cover, subsequent issues did not. If not properly copyrighted, material becomes public domain and hence not owned by any one entity. “I think [Singer] believed he was right,” the late legal expert and comic book historian Rich Morrissey said. “I think he had a good claim to them, with the idea that they’d fallen into the public domain. Some works, even involving copyrighted and trademarked characters whose owners have let them go, have fallen into the public domain.” While Carbonaro, then working as a sales clerk at a Texas comics shop, filed for copyright on Sept. 13, ’84, it most likely wouldn’t have affected the character’s public domain status; once something falls in public domain, it cannot be copyrighted. “John and I both knew that the characters were in the public domain because Tower neglected to put copyright, trademark or registration notices on their comics,” Singer said in Comics Interview #20. In a press release published in The Comic Buyer’s Guide, preceding his T-Agents, Singer claimed that “All God’s Chillun’ got the rights to publish them,” prompting Carbonaro to inform CBG that they were party to a libel suit for printing the item. However, Singer himself had earlier written an article promoting the JC Productions’ T-Agents in Amazing Heroes #8, where he claimed “John obtained the rights to all of the… characters,” though Singer later claimed, in TCJ #101, that he “fibbed. I knew John didn’t have the rights—the article was just publicity and hype.” Singer soon attempted to option T-Agents for film. According to Carbonaro, it was Singer’s hope to break into Hollywood. While Singer could not have necessarily owned the sole exclusive copyright on T-Agents, he could lay claim to any storylines or characters created by Deluxe Comics, and have solely optioned those. “I think it’s remarkable that a man who claims they were public domain claims he has a right to option them himself,” Carbonaro said. “What he did, during the lawsuit, was ask me to join him at a meeting with Michael Uslan and Ben Melniker of Batfilm productions, [who] later on… did the Batman movie. Singer wanted them to go ahead with the [T-Agents] movie, and there were two things about that: He wanted a winner-take-all situation, so that if his lawyers were better than my lawyers, he would have a major motion picture. Also, I noticed that in the contract he had with them, he would get some type of producer credit, so that he could get entry into Hollywood.” Carbonaro’s response was to threaten legal action against Singer

and certain parties through the legal firm of Mudge, Rose, Guthrie, Alexander, and Ferdon. After the initial press release, Carbonaro also targeted CBG writer David Campiti for an unpublished 1984 Singer interview (for remarks made by Singer against Carbonaro), and even Futurians creator Dave Cockrum (in regards to Cockrum publishing through Lodestone, another Singer imprint). CBG and Cockrum were not mentioned in the eventual suit. Singer was sued for over $450,000 in damages. According to Singer, he had offered to settle with Carbonaro five times, all of which were rejected. Carbonaro’s most effective legal action came when he included comic book distributors Glenwood, Capital City, and Comics Unlimited in his lawsuit, causing all three—Glenwood and Capital were the two largest at that time—to drop Wally Wood’s T-Agents, effectively eliminating the title’s distribution. Both Glenwood and Capital then filed suit against Singer for misrepresentation, which only added to the nearly half-million dollars in damages he was facing. Deluxe’s T-Agents lasted only last five issues, and the imprint ceased publication due to Carbonaro and others’ legal action, coupled with distributors’ refusal to carry the title. (Singer had attempted retaliation by setting a requirement that if distributors wished to carry Lodestone books, they would have to also distribute the Deluxe titles.) Singer initially established the two distinct imprints because of his anticipation of continuing legal hassles. Deluxe Comics would be exclusively T-Agents related, hopefully “shielding” the non-T-Agents Lodestone line from any possible fines levied in the future. Code Name: Danger and Dave Cockrum’s The Futurians were two Lodestone titles. Yet, in a letter to TCJ, Singer oddly denied any such connection between the two imprints: “Lodestone Publishing, Inc., is a New York State corporation with no legal, financial, or political connections to Singer Publishing Co., Inc. [Deluxe]” That same issue of TCJ published an inter-office memo (submitted by Bob Sodaro, a mutual friend of both Singer and Carbonaro) between David Singer, President of Deluxe Comics, to David Singer, President of Lodestone Publishing, Inc., leasing office space for $1,000 to Lodestone, commencing Apr. 1, ’85. In 1987, the court decided in Carbonaro’s favor, awarding him copyrights on all Deluxe Comics T-Agents material, plus backstock, and thereby setting legal precedence regarding Carbonaro’s ownership of the property. Since that time, with some 18 years gone by now, David M. Singer has not been seen or heard from in the comics industry. [Editor’s note: Prepping for this book, Ye Ed comes across a phone number for one David M. Singer in the N.Y. metro area and makes the call. An elderly female voice answers, friendly enough, and says David is unavailable, and may she ask what this is in reference to? Seemingly startled upon hearing the word “comics,” the now-irritated voice informs, “No, that David Singer does not live here.” Hmmm….]

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Curse of the T-Agents?

As Robert J. Sodaro so aptly wrote in his article, “The Resplendent Sound of T.H.U.N.D.E.R.,” appearing in the 1999 Comics Value Annual, Wallace Wood’s team of costumed heroes has somehow endured, yet seems plagued by a bittersweet history. “In some respects, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents have lived a most charmed life, as they have risen Phoenix-like from the grave of cancellation more times and appeared under more corporate banners… than any group of super-heroes has any right to expect. However, on the other side of the coin, there seems to be some sort of black cloud constantly hovering over their collective head as they have never been able to make it past issue #20 in any of their many incarnations over the years.” Is some sinister curse haunting the characters? Surely even the appearance of this very book must, at least in some way, attest to the sheer fortitude of the T-Agents, if not their sustaining popularity. But evidence of their bad luck may lie, in part, in simple statistics. In considering the past four decades of the super-hero team’s existence, if you add up all the months in which at least one of their titles was released, just how many aggregate years have T-Agents comics been on the stands? (Give me a minute now; I’m hardly any good at math!) Well, by this writer’s estimation, taking into account the once-a-year frequency of the original run’s final two issues, as well as the twice-a-year appearance of Deluxe Comics’ six editions (plus generously throwing in 1987’s unauthorized sightings in Boris the Bear #11 and Thunder Bunny #11), it rounds out to a total of 44 months—less than fours years-worth of monthly comics! Even if the calculation is off a year or two, the notion that, for a cumulative 35 of the last 40 years, readers have not encountered a freshly printed T-Agents comic book is a depressing one. (Ironically, one of T-Agents’ longest runs since their debut series has been multi-volume reprint collections of those very same Tower titles, presented again in the guise of hardcover editions and published by DC Comics.) Taking another perspective, during the same month T-Agents #1 debuts—November 1965—Detective Comics #345 is released. On the 40th anniversary of those appearances—November 2005—Detective will be numbered around #809. That’s 464 issues published in those four ensuing decades. (Also keep in mind that Detective was, for a stint between ’73-75, published bi-monthly.) A liberal tallying of T-Agents comics puts the count at around 50 separate issues in the same timeframe, which (compared to Detective) accounts for a difference of 414 comics. While numbers don’t tell the whole story of their varied misfortune, in the last 10 years alone, we haven’t seen even one new T-Agents adventure published… though in 2003, DC Comics did have ramped up a monthly series with two issues ready to go to press. But, alas, The New T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents was never apparently meant to be. (Still, yours truly is happy to boast that some previously unpublished (albeit short) stories, as well as a few pin-ups—all first intended for Penthouse Comix titles—are included, courtesy of Mr. Carbonaro, at the tail-end of this very tome!) Shifting now to review the actual content of said comics, we might venture the opinion that while their costumes and character potential are both top-flight, perhaps one major shortcoming of T-Agents is a lack of any respective story development, even across the varied incarnations. The original series do contain notable—and exploitable—story elements, including Menthor’s conflict to chose heroism or villainy, ending with his shocking death; the romantic relationship between Dynamo and his nemesis, Iron Maiden; Lightning’s literal racing towards his own premature death; the inherent ambivalence of NoMan’s self-image… “Am I android or human?”… never mind a bizarre ability to self-destruct and yet live over and again; as well as the possibilities raised by that 176

Left: Splash page detail, “A Slight Case of Combat Fatigue,” T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #16. Art by Dan Adkins & Wallace Wood.

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The Helter Skelter Ride of Wood’s Heroes

fascinating human-raised-bySubterraneans anti-hero, Andor. These are archetypes obviously rife with fertile story potential. With some glaring lapses, the artistry displayed in the infrequent incarnations of T-Agents has been exceptional, their exploits illustrated by some of the industry’s finest pen-&-ink men. But much of the material on the scripting end has been lackluster, sometimes downright bland. And characterizations? Often flat and boring, denying the heroes’ aforementioned potential. While the original series’ trademark infusion of humor now and again were often a welcome relief, Marvel’s Not Brand Echh #2’s T-Agents parody was spoton in contrasting Stan Lee’s easy-going, assured writing against Tower’s over-reliance on fight scenes in place of clever dialogue. And with rare exception (such as Keith Giffen and Tom & Mary Bierbaum’s lively “Lightning” serial in the Deluxe version; and Michael Sawyer’s delightfully innovative one-shot, T.H.U.N.D.E.R.), subsequent writing hasn’t improved much, and here’s hoping the next series will infuse the tales of Woody’s super-heroes with much-needed vitality and imagination. (Though just sad coincidence, there’s also the tragic, self-inflicted—and unrelated—deaths of Wallace Wood and Penthouse Comix editor George Caragonne, one the creator of T-Agents and the other a fervent promoter of same, who separately committed suicide, both in dramatic fashion: Woody by shooting himself in the head in 1981; Caragonne by jumping off of a New York City office building in ’95.) And then, kind reader, consider all the enthusiastic plans and grandiose schemes of those ambitious fan publishers (as well as a couple of established houses), so eager to see their beloved Dynamo and crew back in print, and willing to mortgage their grandmothers to do so. Think about it: How many one-shots and aborted revivals can you recall? (And not only comic books, people! There have also been ill-fated attempts to translate the characters into a role-playing game and an animated TV show, plus now there’s talk of —gulp—a major motion picture…!) Some critics throw blame for problems in the direction of T-Agents owner John Carbonaro. In his online column, Rich Johnston writes that there are two conflicting opinions about the guy. “[He is] described as both ‘dedicated and principled’ or ‘obsessed and overly-moral,’ depending on who you talk to.” Certain people who have negotiated with John about licensing

the characters have expressed frustration in what they see as an uncompromising position about suggestions to update T-Agents, while others admire his steadfast refusal to allow modern-day brutality or any amoral tone mar his “Thunderverse.” And there have been industry pros upset at John’s role as that rare licensor of a coveted property who retains a vested emotional interest in his T-Agents, wishing instead the man would just shut-up, keep his nose out of creative matters, and sign the damn contract already. But might it not be better for those who share John’s passion for the characters to wait even years ’til one day an appropriate series arrives, rather than settle now for some inappropriate, post-modern take? Isn’t a new T-Agents series, one fashioned by creators who understand the underlying appeal of the characters, and who develop an approach that not only makes the grade for the license-holder, but actually does justice to the original concepts… isn’t that all worth waiting for? Why isn’t that preferable rather than suffer new but probably bad versions every year or so, interpretations that might betray Woody’s standard of quality? Time can only tell if T-Agents will return to former glory. Carbonaro has licensed the characters yet again to a new, ambitious publisher, and plans for another version will undoubtedly be released soon. But the original characters have prove durable and resilient through periodic revivals, some good, some bad, and maybe it’s better, if only in recognition of the superb work that has come before, to view their endurance and perennial appeal as less a curse, and more a blessing, courtesy of the imagination of Mr. Wallace Allan Wood.

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Iron Maiden by Garry Leach. Pin-up originally intended for Penthouse Comix’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #0.

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Iron Maiden by Alan Davis (pencils) & Paul Neary (inks). Pin-up commission, presented here with the kind permission of Mr. Davis and Mr. Neary.

adventures in the thunderverse

Thunderbelt by James Kochalka.

Post-Modern T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents T-Agents & Iron Maiden by Dean Haspiel.

Dynamo & Jet Cat by Jay Stephens.

T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Villains by Jay Stephens.

NoMan by Derf. 181

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In the annals of comic book history, Menthor was perhaps the first major super-hero to be killed and stay that way, and he was not a minor character, but a comrade-in-arms. The story still stands on a high literary plateau in comics for the last 40 years. The late writer/editor George Caragonne wrote a story about the post-traumatic stress of Dynamo, who had witnessed his colleague and friend, John Janus (a.k.a. Menthor), fatally riddled by Warlord bullets, as the dying man revealed a death-ray meant to kill the other T.H.UN.D.E.R. Agents. Dialogue for this beautifully rendered story—drawn by Garry “Miracleman” Leach—was lost with George’s death. But the meaning is clear and we felt this wordless saga should be shown to fans. —John Carbonaro

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For the Love of T.H.U.N.D.E.R.! Perhaps the most gratifying legacy of Wallace Wood’s T-Agents is the genuine affection shared by comic book readers and professionals alike for the characters. Without such devotion from a multitude of fans, this book would not have been possible, as T.H.U.N.D.E.R. freaks the world over contributed artwork, articles, interviews, factoids, and an abundance of enthusiasm and support. From Dave “Watchmen” Gibbons voluntarily sending us the penciled page of his pin-up (see below) to Jane L. Stallman so graciously sharing little-known background info on her late husband, Manny “The Raven” Stallman, to everyone who responded to the editor’s invariably last-minute, desperate pleas for help (often regarding the most obscure of requests), it’s heartwarming to feel the emotional attachment so many have for Wood & Co.’s superheroes and humbling to be on the receiving end of such love. Our deepest thanks and appreciation to all, and apologies for not naming each and every one who helped, but we can only hope such passion has somehow rubbed off on these pages. Thank you.—Jon B. Cooke

COMICS MAGAZINES FROM TWOMORROWS ™

A Tw o M o r r o w s P u b l i c a t i o n

No. 3, Fall 2013

BACK ISSUE

ALTER EGO

82658 97073

COMIC BOOK CREATOR

DRAW!

JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR

BACK ISSUE celebrates comic books of the 1970s, 1980s, and today through a variety of recurring (and rotating) departments, including Pro2Pro interviews (between two top creators), “Greatest Stories Never Told”, retrospective articles, and more. Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

ALTER EGO, the greatest ‘zine of the ‘60s, is all-new, focusing on Golden and Silver Age comics and creators with articles, interviews and unseen art. Each issue includes an FCA (Fawcett Collectors of America) section, Mr. Monster & more. Edited by ROY THOMAS.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR is the new voice of the comics medium, devoted to the work and careers of the men and women who draw, write, edit, and publish comics, focusing always on the artists and not the artifacts, the creators and not the characters. Edited by JON B. COOKE.

DRAW! is the professional “How-To” magazine on cartooning and animation. Each issue features in-depth interviews and stepby-step demonstrations from top comics professionals. Most issues contain nudity for figure-drawing instruction; Mature Readers Only. Edited by MIKE MANLEY.

JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR celebrates the life and career of the “King” of comics through interviews with Kirby and his contemporaries, feature articles, and rare & unseen Kirby artwork. Now full-color, the magazine showcases Kirby’s art even more dynamically. Edited by JOHN MORROW.

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazines) $8.95 (Digital Editions) $3.95

(100-page FULL-COLOR mag) $10.95 (Digital Editions) $4.95

BOOKS FROM TWOMORROWS PUBLISHING AMERICAN COMIC BOOK CHRONICLES: The 1950s

BILL SCHELLY tackles comics of the Atomic Era of Marilyn Monroe and Elvis! (240-pages) $40.95 • (Digital Edition) $12.95 • ISBN: 9781605490540

1960-64 and 1965-69

JOHN WELLS covers two volumes on 1960s MARVEL COMICS, Wally Wood’s TOWER COMICS, CHARLTON, BATMAN TV SHOW, and more! 1960-64: (224-pages) $39.95 • (Digital Edition) $11.95 ISBN: 978-1-60549-045-8 1965-69: (288-pages) $41.95 • (Digital Edition) $13.95 ISBN: 9781605490557

The 1970s

JASON SACKS & KEITH DALLAS on comics’ emerging Bronze Age! (240-pages) $40.95 • (Digital Edition) $12.95 • ISBN: 9781605490564

us new Ambitio FULLseries of DCOVERS AR COLOR H nting each e m cu o d f comic decade o tory! book his

The 1980s

KEITH DALLAS documents comics’ 1980s Reagan years! (288-pages) $41.95 • (Digital Edition) $13.95 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-046-5

AGE OF TV HEROES Examining the history of the live-action television adventures of everyone’s favorite comic book heroes, featuring the in-depth stories of the shows’ actors and behind-the-scenes players! (192-page FULL-COLOR HARDCOVER) $39.95

MODERN MASTERS

LOU SCHEIMER

SPOTLIGHTING TODAY’S BEST

CREATING THE FILMATION GENERATION

25+ volumes with in-depth interviews, plus extensive galleries of rare and unseen art from the artist’s files!

Biography of the co-founder of Filmation Studios, which for over 25 years brought the Archies, Shazam, Isis, He-Man, and others to TV and film!

(120-page trade paperbacks with COLOR) $15.95 (Digital Editions) $5.95

(288-page trade paperback with COLOR) $29.95 (Digital Edition) $13.95

HOW TO CREATE COMICS FROM SCRIPT TO PRINT

Shows step-by-step how to develop a new comic, from script and art, to printing and distribution! (108-page trade paperback with COLOR) $15.95 (Digital Edition) $5.95

TwoMorrows—A New Day For Comics Fandom! TwoMorrows Publishing • 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614 USA • 919-449-0344 E-mail: store@twomorrowspubs.com • Visit us on the Web at www.twomorrows.com

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The Heroes of

T.H.U.N.D.E.R.! In 1965, legendary comic book artist Wallace Wood was given a challenge: Develop a team of super-heroes, one incorporating the 007 spy craze of that era, to compete with the Marvel Comics Group. Collaborating with some of the finest writers and artists in the field, Woody responded with T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents, ™costumed super-spies with extraordinary powers, battling evil in the name of the United Nations. Starring Dynamo, NoMan, Menthor, Raven, Lightning, and T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Squad, the comics are now widely considered to be among the finest super-hero adventures ever published. The titanic team has been revived time and again over the last four decades, proving these operatives of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. have made a durable, lasting impact, a group as vital and fun today as when the great Wallace Wood & Co. first conceived them. Painting by Mark Texeira

Thunderstruck!

THIS 224-PAGE EXTRAVAGANZA CONTAINS: In-Depth History • Ultimate Checklist • Gallery of Unseen Art Rarely-seen 27-page story by Paul Gulacy & Terry Austin

Now prepare to be

This book, the most definitive and Never-before-published T-Agents stories & pin-ups by: only authorized edition celebrating the Paul Gulacy, Garry Leach, Alan Davis & Jordan Raskin 40th anniversary of the characters, includes a comprehensive history of the Interviews with, as well as essays & remembrances about renowned super-heroes in all of their many of the world’s greatest comics creators, including: incarnations, as well as examining the Wallace Wood, Reed Crandall, Steve Ditko, Gil Kane, lives & work of an astounding crew of Mike Sekowsky, George Tuska, Al Williamson, Dave Cockrum, comic book artists and writers who’ve Keith Keith Giffen, Giffen, J.G. J.G. Jones, Jones, George George Perez, Perez, Paul Paul Gulacy, Gulacy, && 38 38 others! others contributed to what we now call the

THUNDERVERSE! TwoMorrows Publishing Raleigh, North Carolina

CELEBRATE 40 YEARS OF T.H.U.N.D.E.R. AGENTS! $24.95 in the U.S.