Notable Alumni: An Interview with Dr. Thomas Penn

Pictured: Dr. Tom Penn featured next to his graduation photo circa 1977

As interviewed by David Linehan, M.D., July 15, 2022

Tom, it’s good to have you here in the office to talk about the history of the Department of Surgery at the University of Rochester, of which you were an important part. I was just looking at the wall of our residents and trainees here. You started as an intern in July 1972 so it is actually 50 years ago this month that you started as a resident here in this program.

You did not have to remind me of that! It is good to be here.

What do you think is the difference between training then and training now?

I think there is several differences. I think that the house staff was considered more of a workhorse for the hospital in a way. To give you one example, as an intern we handled most of the phlebotomy, and if it was at night, we’d handle all of it. And so it was hard a lot of times, particularly first and second year, because you are always being called.

How was it that you chose vascular surgery as your specialty?

Well it is a good question. First, I really liked it. Second because of all the non-invasive vascular studies, I was an electronics engineer. So I got interested in that, and I was instrumental in, if not the first, pretty nearly the first, vascular lab around. And so that influenced me a lot.

When you look back at your experience, I actually thought you were the first black trainee in the program, but you pointed out to me that you were not. There was somebody that was here before you that turned out to be an important mentor to you.

Yes, Robert Rivers. He was a great, great person.

Did he ever talk to you about what it was like to be the first black training in the program?

Yes. Before I finally signed on the dotted line here, one of the residents told me about him and I called and talked to him. He sealed the deal, you know, I felt very comfortable after what he told me.

What advice did he give you when you were starting out as a young surgeon that was important?

I think it was kind of along what we always hear the A’s: availability, affability, and ability, in that order. Right? It is not true, but availability is a biggie. Availability does work.

When you were a trainee here and/or a faculty member here, did you experience either overt or subtle racism? Was it ever a problem for you as a practicing surgeon?

I can unequivocally say that never, never had a situation. I had only one patient that gave me a little bit of trouble. It turned out his wife needed a biopsy and at first, I thought it was me, but it turned out, he did not want any men. So other than that, I never had a problem. It was a smooth sailing, good support all the way.

What advice would you give to young surgeons, especially young surgeons from underrepresented backgrounds in terms of how to succeed in surgery?

Well, it is the ones you would expect in every profession. You first want to get a good education, good skills, you would like to be cordial and as accurate as you can be, and availability is a big one. You cannot be available at the country club and so forth. I was never rejected by referral or a patient.

Rochester was a very collegial atmosphere as I think you know. It is something I have tried to revive, collegiality among surgeons, both on the faculty and not on the faculty. It is a unique environment here.

Yes it was. It was very much so when I came. Everybody was available to help. You were welcomed. If I had a vascular problem, I could call Joe Geary, who had been around a long time. A lot of time he said, he could come over and see it right now.

Your practice was primarily at Genesee Hospital. Is that right?

When I first started, yes. The town had some turbulence as Genesee was the only downtown hospital and it had 94% occupancy, yet had financial troubles. It had nothing to do with the talent of the surgical and medical staffs and so it went down purely political, but it was a good hospital. The only thing we did not do was cardiac, but we had good vascular.

What was it like working with Dr. Schwartz? He was probably a relatively junior attending when you were a training.

Relatively! I would have to give Dr. Swartz an A plus. First, there is nothing, he didn’t know. You would struggle with trying to find something out and he’d blurt it out. I would rate him as one of the most intelligent persons I have ever run into. But, he always had time for you. Hardest working person I ever saw. When we would come in for rounds, you would have to go by his office to go to the patient floors. Never beat him. You have to get your stuff done; you started at 5:00/ 5:30am and he was already there. The doors open, the lights are on and he is going. It is small wonder he was able to write all these books.

The chair of surgery then was Charles Rob?

Rob was a really interesting character. With all his military service in the war and being a great surgeon, there was never anything that came up that he did not have some ideas about. You know, he knew Churchill. He, in fact he was consulted on Churchill and said that Churchill would do very well as long as you let him have his scotch. Rob was a fellow that beyond characterization, he would always tell us stories. I could not believe all that stuff he was saying. He flew airplanes, and then there was some major hill or some mountain and he climbed it. There was no country that he had not potentially been in. So anyway, when he sent me to Nigeria, I came back by way of London and at his old hospital. I started asking was there any truth to it? All of it was certified. He was a war hero and he had been everywhere in the world. He did some spying in the war. He was just a full-fledged character.

Back in the day, when you trained here, it was more of a pyramidal system, so that everyone that started didn’t finish. You had to compete with your fellow trainees to progress. So what was that like?

It usually went off pretty smooth, but you never knew exactly where you stood. When I was interviewing to stay, Jim Adams was one of my interviewers. I go in and he gives me about eight places that I could take a look at. He was going round and round and then back and forth. Then as I am leaving, he said, Hey, Tom, by the way, I wouldn’t sell your house.

I appreciate you taking the time to come and talk to me because history is important. When we have these kind of recordings, it helps us to sustain that. It helps our current trainees and our future trainees understand what the University of Rochester Department Surgery is all about. I really appreciate you taking the time and coming to talk with me today.

Not as much as I appreciate you inviting me. It has been a pleasure knowing you and seeing you around. There is no question in my mind that the surgery department at the University of Rochester is in good hands.