HIM
c 2016 - 2018 Vivienne O’Brien Text: Aristophones Speech and Interview Candidates Design and concept: Vivienne O’Brien DTP: Vivienne O’Brien Authors Photograph: Aron Cahil and Vivienne O’Brien vivienneobrien.com For questions: vivienneobrienis@gmail.com ISBN 978 90 6369 307 7 1st Printing 2016 Aunger Publishers 2 Sackville Pl North City Dublin Ireland print@aungierprint.ie Copy this if you dare!
Thank you to everyone who gave their time to this project.
THEINBETWEEN
CONTENTS
HIM
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Aristophanes’s Speech from Plato’s Symposium
OSCAR
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RYAN EOIN ADAMA MARK/ MARS ERIN OISIN SKYLER Glossary Gender Identity Flags Sexual Identity Flags
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HER
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This Book was inspired by Aristophanes’s Speech from Plato’s Symposium Translated by Benjamin Jowett from
Collected Works of Plato, 4th Edition, Oxford U. Press, 1953 (189c-189d) p 520 to (193d-193e) p 525 ________________________________________
Aristophanes professed to open another vein of discourse; he had a mind to praise Love in another way, unlike that of either Pausanias or Eryximachus. Mankind, he said, judging by their neglect of him, have never, as I think, at all understood the power of Love. For if they had understood him they would surely have built noble temples and altars, and offered solemn sacrifices in his honour; but this is not done, and most certainly ought to be done: since of all the gods he is the best friend of men, the helper and the healer of the ills which are the great impediment to the happiness of the race. I will try to describe his power to you, and you shall teach the rest of the world what I am teaching you. In the first place, let me treat of the nature of man and what has happened to it. The original human nature was not like the present, but different. The sexes were not two as they are now, but originally three in number; 1
there was man, woman, and the union of the two, of which the name survives but nothing else. Once it was a distinct kind, with a bodily shape and a name of its own, constituted by the union of the male and the female: but now only the word ‘androgynous’ is preserved, and that as a term of reproach. In the second place, the primeval man was round, his back and sides forming a circle; and he had four hands and the same number of feet, one head with two faces, looking opposite ways, set on a round neck and precisely alike; also four ears, two privy members, and the remainder to correspond. He could walk upright as men now do, backwards or forwards as he pleased, and he could also roll over and over at a great pace, turning on his four hands and four feet, eight in all, like tumblers going over and over with their legs in the air; this was when he wanted to run fast. Now the sexes were three, and such as I have described them; because the sun, moon, and earth are three; and the man was originally the child of the sun, the woman of the earth, and the man-woman of the moon, which is made up of sun and earth, and they were all round and moved round and round because they resembled their parents. Terrible was their might and strength, and the thoughts of their hearts were great, and they made an attack upon the gods; of them is 2
told the tale of Otys and Ephialtes who, as Homer says, attempted to scale heaven, and would have laid hands upon the gods. Doubt reigned in the celestial councils. Should they kill them and annihilate the race with thunderbolts, as they had done the giants, then there would be an end of the sacrifices and worship which men offered to them; but, on the other hand, the gods could not suffer their insolence to be unrestrained. At last, after a good deal of reflection, Zeus discovered a way. He said: ‘Methinks I have a plan which will enfeeble their strength and so extinguish their turbulence; men shall continue to exist, but I will cut them in two and then they will be diminished in strength and increased in numbers; this will have the advantage of making them more profitable to us. They shall walk upright on two legs, and if they continue insolent and will not be quiet, I will split them again and they shall hop about on a single leg.’ He spoke and cut men in two, like a sorb-apple which is halved for pickling, or as you might divide an egg with a hair; and as he cut them one after another, he bade Apollo give the face and the half of the neck a turn in order that man might contemplate the section of himself: he would thus learn a lesson of humility. Apollo was also bidden to heal their wounds and compose their forms. So 3
he gave a turn to the face and pulled the skin from the sides all over that which in our language is called the belly, like the purses which draw tight, and he made one mouth at the centre, which he fastened in a knot (the same which is called the navel); he also moulded the breast and took out most of the wrinkles, much as a shoemaker might smooth leather upon a last; he left a few, however, in the region of the belly and navel, as a memorial of the primeval state. After the division the two parts of man, each desiring his other half, came together, and throwing their arms about one another, entwined in mutual embraces, longing to grow into one, they began to die from hunger and selfneglect, because they did not like to do anything apart; and when one of the halves died and the other survived, the survivor sought another mate, man or woman as we call them,--being the sections of entire men or women,-and clung to that. Thus they were being destroyed, when Zeus in pity invented a new plan: he turned the parts of generation round to the front, for this had not been always their position, and they sowed the seed no longer as hitherto like grasshoppers in the ground, but in one another; and after the transposition the male generated in the female in order that by the mutual embraces of man and woman they might breed, and the race might continue; or if man 4
came to man they might be satisfied, and rest, and go their ways to the business of life. So ancient is the desire of one another which is implanted in us, reuniting our original nature, seeking to make one of two, and to heal the state of man. Each of us when separated, having one side only, like a flat fish, is but the tally-half of a man, and he is always looking for his other half. Men who are a section of that double nature which was once called androgynous are lovers of women; adulterers are generally of this breed, and also adulterous women who lust after men. The women who are a section of the woman do not care for men, but have female attachments; the female companions are of this sort. But they who are a section of the male follow the male, and while they are young, being slices of the original man, they have affection for men and embrace them, and these are the best of boys and youths, because they have the most manly nature. Some indeed assert that they are shameless, but this is not true; for they do not act thus from any want of shame, but because they are valiant and manly, and have a manly countenance, and they embrace that which is like them. And these when they grow up become our statesmen, and these only, which is a great proof of the truth of what I am saying. When they reach manhood they are lovers of youth, and are not naturally inclined 5
to marry or beget children,--if at all, they do so only in obedience to custom; but they are satisfied if they may be allowed to live with one another unwedded; And such a nature is prone to love and ready to return love, always embracing that which is akin to him. And when one of them meets with his other half, the actual half of himself, whether he be a lover of youth or a lover of another sort, the pair are lost in an amazement of love and friendship and intimacy, and one will not be out of the other’s sight, as I may say, even for a moment: these are the people who pass their whole lives together, and yet they could not explain what they desire of one another. For the intense yearning which each of them has towards the other does not appear to be the desire of lover’s intercourse, but of something else which the soul of either evidently desires and cannot tell, and of which she has only a dark and doubtful presentiment. Suppose Hephaestus, with his instruments, to come to the pair who are lying side by side and to say to them, ‘What do you mortals want of one another?’ They would be unable to explain. And suppose further, that when he saw their perplexity he said: ‘Do you desire to be wholly one; always day and night in one another’s company? for if this is what you desire, I am ready to melt and fuse you together, so that being two you shall become one, and while you live live a common life as if 6
you were a single man, and after your death in the world below still be one departed soul, instead of two--I ask whether this is what you lovingly desire and whether you are satisfied to attain this?’-There is not a man of them who when he heard the proposal would deny or would not acknowledge that this meeting and melting into one another, this becoming one instead of two, was the very expression of his ancient need. And the reason is that human nature was originally one and we were a whole, and the desire and pursuit of the whole is called love. There was a time, I say, when we were one, but now because of the wickedness of mankind God has dispersed us, as the Arcadians were dispersed into villages by the Lacedaemonians. And if we are not obedient to the gods, there is a danger that we shall be split up again and go about in basso-relievo, like the profile figures showing only one half the nose which are sculptured on monuments, and that we shall be like tallies. Wherefore let us exhort all men to piety in all things, that we may avoid evil and obtain the good, taking Love for our leader and commander. Let no one oppose him--he is the enemy of the gods who opposes him. For if we are friends of God and at peace with him we shall find our own true loves, which 7
rarely happens in this world at present. I am serious, and therefore I must beg Eryximachus not to make fun or to find any allusion in what I am saying to Pausanias and Agathon, who, as I suspect, are both of the manly nature, and belong to the class which I have been describing. But my words have a wider application--they include men and women everywhere; and I believe that if our loves were perfectly accomplished, and each one returning to his primeval nature had his original true love, then our race would be happy. And if this would be best of all, the best in the next degree must in present circumstances be the nearest approach to such a union; and that will be the attainment of a congenial love. Wherefore, if we would praise him who has given to us the benefit, we must praise the god Love, who is our greatest benefactor, both leading us in this life back to our own nature, and giving us high hopes for the future, for he promises that if we are pious, he will restore us to our original state, and heal us and make us happy and blessed. This, Eryximachus, is my discourse of love, which, although different to yours, I must beg you to leave unassailed by the shafts of your ridicule, in order that each may have his turn; each, or rather either, for Agathon and Socrates are the only ones left. 8
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Oscar
What do you identify as if you identify yourself at all? I identify as a transguy/ male What is your preferred pronoun? He/ Him/ His Do you think you were born like that or was it a more gradual process? Coming to realise it was a gradual process more than anything else but I cannot rule out that I was in fact born with this innate sense of gender.
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Do you think there is a connection between gender identity a nd sexuality? No, the two are mutually exclusive.
When did you ‘come out’ as __? I came out as a transguy
Were there any signs of unconventional gender exploration when you were younger that might not have been so obvious back then but when you look back you think it was always there? The classic discomfort with traditional femininity. Coming from a very liberal family there was no issue with me expressing my masculinity young.
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What kind of reaction did you get when you came out? After initial familial confusion I was receiving overwhelming positivity and acceptance.
What were you expecting? Exactly that, teething problems but eventual acceptance.
From your own experience how do you feel Irish people react to people who don’t conform to gender stereotypes? Younger generations are as a whole very accepting, since the marriage referendum it has been very positive. Older people sometimes can be a mixed bag of reactions. But on the whole people don’t usually say something to your face, unless they’re shouting hatespeech.
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Do you think social media played a roll in giving you ideas about your identity? Not myself personally no, I used social media to gain support
from the community rather than to explore my identity.
When did you start feeling comfortable talking about how you felt? I began openly discussing gender issues when I was 15 through art and writing, then among some friends. I came out to my family and began my medical transition in November 2014.
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What do you think of the following statement? : ‘Androgyny is todays fad’ I don’t think it’s a fad, I think people are just becoming more comfortable with their own gender expression and androgyny seems to be very common place. At any rate, today’s idea of androgyny is usually a watered down masculinity. Why is it that a skirt can’t be androgynous?
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If you had any advise to give young people or other people who might be experiencing what you have experienced what would it be? Hold true to your feelings, even if you can’t find anyone to validate them. Your feelings are proof enough of your identity. It’s going to be hard, it’s going to be really hard, but if you’ve made it this far you can make it further.
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Ryan
What do you identify as if you identify yourself at all?
I IDENTIFY AS A STRAIGHT MAN, A SCOUT, A STUDENT, A VINTAGE MACHINERY ENTHUSIAST AND A DOG OWNER Do you think you were born like that/ or was it a more gradual process?
Looking back, I think I was born the way I am now. For a lot of people, realizing that one is trans is a gradual thing, but I think for me everything snowballed until the penny dropped around two and a half years ago and I had my one moment of clarity.
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Were there any signs of unconventional gender exploration when you were younger that might not have been so obvious back then but when you look back you think it was always there?
There were definitely signs, but even when I was extremely young, thinking it was the norm, and everyone felt the way I did. In my primary school, I pretty much exclusively played football with the boys, and was on the boys’ teams whenever we did anything as a class. I don’t think any of my classmates then batted an eyelid, there was talk of me “wanting to be a boy,” but it was widely accepted, if never acted upon, which looking back was actually quite progressive for my small, rural, primary school. When I went to my secondary school those signs were definitely repressed, we even had gendered uniforms. I didn’t come out as trans in that school but I was severely bullied for being perceived as queer.
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What is your preferred pronoun?
HIM HIS HE Do you think there is a connection between gender identity and sexuality?
I think that’s a very complicated question. In my opinion, the two are related, but in different ways depending on the person. For example, I knew I liked women before I knew I was trans, but I don’t think that my ‘queer’ gender identity affects my sexual orientation, although it has led me to question it perhaps far more than most. That being said, I have noticed that a larger proportion of trans people have a sexuality that deviates from the societal ‘norm’ than cis people. Whether that’s just because trans people are more likely to question other aspects of their identity or some other reason, I don’t know.
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Do you think social media played a roll in giving you ideas about your identity?
It probably did, I know my parents have accused the internet of ‘turning’ me queer. I’m from a quite rural part of the country, even Dublin felt like a different world until I was around 13, so being exposed to diversity online from a sexuality and gender viewpoint was a massive eye opener. I don’t think that social media played as much of a role as moving schools did, however. I started attending the Institute of Education in the City Centre, and got to know other trans people, more queer people, people who asked me what my pronouns were and were completely outside the box in terms of the societal norm. So that was probably more liberating than social media or the internet could ever be.
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From your own experience how do you feel Irish people react to people who don’t conform to gender stereotypes?
I THINK ITS VERY MUCH A GENERATIONAL THING My parents and grandparents, accepting as they are, would be at least a little put off by someone who doesn’t conform to common gender expression. It’s also a regional thing in Ireland, my brother who goes to school in Offaly was completely thrown by a man wearing lipstick who welcomed us into Lush one day. It’s just never something that would have come into his mind. Young people are much less likely to question these things though. 26
When did you start feeling comfortable talking about how you felt?
I’ve always talked about how I feel in terms of being trans when it was necessary, but being comfortable about it is a separate matter. Obviously I need to talk about it, I’ll need to email my college about the name on my student card or tell my girlfriend what my body is going to look like five years down the line, but I try and put these things off for as long as possible. When I’m going about my life, I try to keep talking about it to a minimum. The first time I told someone about thinking that I might be trans was the day after I had my epiphany, as it were. I was completely freaked out.
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When did you ‘come out’ as __?
I CAME OUT AS A GAY WOMAN IN AUGUST 2013 AND A STRAIGHT MAN FROM J UNE 2014 What kind of reaction did you get? My parents were completely opposed to the idea, and in some ways they still are. Nothing has changed at home, but my mother has accepted that I’ve moved on in that regard, and my family are the only people that don’t see me as I am. When I told my friends, most of them had guessed, or so they told me. Coming out in school and in scouting was almost entirely seamless.
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What were you expecting?
I definitely wasn’t expecting people to tell me that they had guessed, but it was welcome. I knew what was going to happen with my parents, but the support from my friends has been overwhelming.
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If you had any advice to give young people or other people who might be experiencing what you have experienced what would it be?
Just that they’re not alone, and that there are plenty of people who are experiencing and have experienced the same thing. But don’t shut yourself off from everyone. Being trans can be fairly shit, but if you allow yourself to wallow it only tends to make things worse. There will always be people willing to help and support you.
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Eoin
What do you identify as if you identify yourself at all? I would identify myself as many things depending when I’m asked. Many gender terms have been applied to me by others and myself, such as gender-fluid, gender nonbinary, gender non-conforming. But if I was to describe what my gender felt like to me I would say: I feel that I don’t fit into either male or female. I have the body of a man, my sex is male, and I am comfortable with that. I in no way want to change my body, I like my body. My gender is different though. When talking about masculine and feminine I feel like neither of those words fit me. Some people may see a certain attributes of my personality or of me as a person and say “That is a very feminine attribute to have.” Other may see another aspect of me and say “That is a very masculine attribute.” This is when I become uncomfortable or upset. Personally I feel (and I know it doesn’t apply to most people but I feel one day it might) that those attributes are simply attributes of me. No part of me needs to be looked at and assigned a gender either male or female. These aspects of my personality are simply aspects of me and I am not a gender. I am a person, these are human aspects and that is it. Ultimately, I have no gender, and I feel that in reality no one does. We construct gender, perform gender, and apply it to everything around us, but I feel it blocks us from many amazing friendships and relationships of any kind due to fears of perceived 35
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genders and their perceived sexualities, and the consequences that come with a relationship of certain labels.
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Do you think you were born like that or was it a more gradual process? It is honestly hard to say. I suppose I have always been the same but it is only in recent years that I understand my own gender (or lack thereof) but yes, I suppose I was born this way.
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Were there any signs of unconventional gender exploration when you were younger that might not have been so obvious back then but when you look back you think it was always there? I suppose there were. There were many times when I was younger that I would wear dresses, and play with dolls. But I also played with action figures, and toy cars. I played with what I wanted to, and I dressed
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how I wanted to. Back then I didn’t think much of it, but looking back I am proud that I didn’t care that much. I can see now that from an early age I didn’t care about conforming to traditional gender roles.
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What is your preferred pronoun? I am comfortable with He. And I don’t even mind She. But most people refer to me as he/him. And I don’t think much about it myself.
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Do you think there is a connection between gender identity and sexuality? Again I’m not sure. I happen not to be my expected gender, and I also happen to be gay but are they linked? I think with my experience growing up gay (which I have known about myself from a very very young age) has allowed me the opportunity to be more aware of myself in the sense of my gender. Because I had the unavoidable experience of not being ‘normal’ when
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it comes to sexuality and having to be conscious of that it made me look at my gender and wonder what it was. Maybe they are both things in my life that are separate and one opened my eyes to the other, but they also could be linked.
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Do you think social media played a roll in giving you ideas about your identity? I understand that this may be true for a lot of people, and at one stage it definitely was; in my teen years I definitely tried to conform to the male gender for a while. But with my own experience of my gender I specifically do not want it to be affected by other people or any form of media. I am myself and have not been formed by any outside influence.
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From your own experience how do you feel Irish people react to people who don’t conform to gender stereotypes? From what I’ve seen and experienced a lot of people stare in shock if you dress beyond the gender norm. Every now and then you get a few hoots, cheers, and compliments from people who admire your tenacity. But every now and then you also get a few shouts, insults, and threats from people who very much disagree.
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When did you start feeling comfortable talking about how you felt? Only in the last two years have I felt I could talk to people about it. Before, it mostly wasn’t for a fear of being misunderstood, but more for being unable to even put words to fully fit how I felt inside. I now feel I can almost explain how my gender feels to me but I’m still not fully sure how to describe the rest of it using the language we all use for the binary gender system.
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When did you ‘come out’ as __? I only really came out about being genderless in the last few months. It doesn’t make sense to many people, and it rarely affects how I act or others perceive me so it mostly goes unnoticed.
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What kind of reaction did you get? The people I have told or who know mostly kind of get it, and they don’t mind that they don’t fully understand and are happy to let me be. A few people have challenged me on it, some of those trying to figure out how to bracket me, but so far nothing really negative has happened.
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What were you expecting? I wasn’t really expecting anything. If people didn’t understand or like it that was their issue and I couldn’t change that so why worry? And if people understood, or liked, or respected that then that’s great. But either way it didn’t matter to me. If you had any advise to give young people or other people who might be experiencing what you have experienced what would it be?
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Don’t be concerned or frustrated that you can’t describe what you feel, the words will come eventually, and you’ll also mind less if you can’t fully grasp it. Feel free to explore expressing yourself through clothing and art and dance and whatever you want. Don’t care if others don’t like how you express it; I can honestly say they don’t matter.
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Love yourself the whole way through, because it can be tough and you need to help yourself along.
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Adama
What do you identify as if you identify yourself at all?
When it comes to my sexuality I identify as gay, but as for my gender identity, in most if not all cases, when this question comes up I say that I am gender nonconforming.
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For many years I identified as Androgynous, but I never truly felt it to describe how I felt. Gender nonconforming, though still a label, is the closest to describe how I think of myself.
Were there any signs of unconventional gender exploration when you were younger that might not have been so obvious back then but when you look back you think it was always there?
I would say so. I always wore what I liked without restricting myself to socially acceptable gender norms. Looking back I haven’t even realize till quite late that boys are only
meant to wear boy’s clothes. I was quite simply oblivious to the fact that what I was doing isn’t generally considered acceptable.
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Do you think you were born like that/ or was it a more gradual process?
I believe, that sexuality is something we are born with, but gender as far as my identity goes, at least for me is something that has evolved over time. I think this is true for most people, with the exception of transgender people of course. You see, for me the concept of gender in its entirety, is completely alien. Not because I have a ‘’unique’’ opinion/
understanding or interpretation of the term, but because the idea of gender as a whole was unknown to me until I moved to Ireland. Despite its mind boggling complexity, my language does not have a separate term to describe gender, only the sex of a person. Similarly, it does not have gender specific pronouns, like English, Latin or German does. As such, gender 8 years later, is
still a new idea to me. I understand the benefits and importance of having such concept when it comes to describing gender dysphoria or transgenderism for example, in the English language, but in Hungarian there is no need or use for such term. So I suppose I have always been the way I am, but I never felt the need to describe it or to put a name to it. I still don’t.
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What is your preferred pronoun?
I prefer “em” as my gender neutral pronoun, but I really don’t mind the traditional he or she either.
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Whatever people are comfortable using I am happy with. To me gender pronouns don’t have great significance.
Do you think there is a connection between gender identity and sexuality?
Quite simply no. Gender identity and sexual orientation seem to operate completely independently from one another. There is every combination of sexual orientation with gender identity
you can possibly think of. This suggests, at least to me that there is no real correlation between one’s gender identity and sexuality.
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Do you think social media played a roll in giving you ideas about your identity?
I think it did. Although it influenced my gender expression more than anything else. It has definitely helped me improve my understanding of gender identity.
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I think that at the start it helped me to put a name to how I feel and express myself when I was confused, as I thought I had to then helped me realise I don’t.
From your own experience how do you feel Irish people react to people who don’t conform to gender stereotypes?
Within the social circles I move around in I find people are comfortable with those who don’t conform to what is socially deemed as gender norms. If anything they are very supportive and applaud it. This is in a way expected and isn’t new within the art world.
Within the general public however, there’s a big shift. I never really experienced anybody vocalize their discomfort or opposition towards me and the way I dress or carry myself, though especially the older generation’s disapproval is definitely perceptible through the grimaces, stares and head shaking.
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When did you start feeling comfortable talking about how you felt?
I never really felt the need to explain myself, at least when it came to gender identity, but I also never felt uncomfortable talking about. I suppose after I came out as gay, there were no longer any boundaries or topics I felt uncomfortable discussing.
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When did you ‘come out’ as __?
I came out as gay when I was about 17, though not quite the dramatic story. It was more of a reconfirmation than an unveiling. It was always very obvious to everybody around me that I was gay. As per my appearance and self expression through my clothing and makeup, that
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has also always been a part of me, thus never had to explain myself. I didn’t just one day start dressing the way I do, I always wore what I liked and looking back now to when I was a child I realize, that sometimes that happened to be ‘’girls’’ clothes.
What kind of reaction did you get?
Neutral. The reactions were a collective ‘’we know’’.
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What were you expecting?
Having always been very proficient and knowledgeable in the world of soap opera and having been quite a dramatic kid I had the worst case scenario in mind.
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If you had any advise to give young people or other people who might be experiencing what you have experienced what would it be?
I would tell them to not rush anything. Give yourself time to understand your feelings and thoughts before worrying about trying to explain it to others. Don’t feel the need that you must explain yourself or even understand your own thoughts. We don’t always understand ourselves
and that is okay. Answers come with time and things start making sense after a while. Do what makes you happy, but also stay safe. The environment, society and community in which you live in may not always be accepting or even tolerating of people who don’t conform to their norms.
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HIM
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