WGAN-TV | Matterport Pro3 for AEC: Expert Insights on Level of Accuracy, Benefits and Limitations | Guests: 3DLS.XYZ (www.3DLS.XYZ) Managing Partner Richard “RJ” Johnson, Architectural Resource Consultants (www.ARC-Corporate.com) as well as the U.S. Institute of Building Documentation (www.USIBD.org) President and CEO John Russo and RC Monkeys (www. RCmonkeys.com) Director Silviu Stoian | Episode: 193 | Thursday, 15 June 2023
[00:00:04]
Dan Smigrod: - Are you a Matterport Service Provider that owns or is considering buying a Matterport Pro3 Camera? Are you struggling to understand -- in non-geek speak -- what is the Level of Accuracy (LOA) of a Matterport Pro3 Camera? What are the benefits and limitations of a Matterport Pro3 Camera in the AEC space? Stay tuned.
I’m Dan Smigrod, Founder of the [www.WeGetAroundNetworkForum. com]. Today is Thursday, June 15th, 2023 and you’re watching WGANTV Live at 5.
We have an awesome show for you today: Matterport Pro3 Camera for Architects, Engineers and Construction Professionals: AEC Expert Insights on Level of Accuracy, Benefits and Limitations of the Matterport Pro3 Camera. Our subject matter experts today are North Vancouver, Canada-based 3DLS.XYZ Managing Partner Richard “RJ” Johnson. Hey, RJ, good to see you.
[00:01:14]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: - Good afternoon. Yes.
[00:01:16]
Dan Smigrod: - We have Tustin, California-based Architectural Resources Consultants (ARC) [www.ARC-corporate.com] President and CEO -- who is also U.S. Institute of Building Documentation [www. USIBD.org] Founder and President John Russo. Hey John.
[00:01:33]
John Russo: - Hey, Dan. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:34]
[RC Monkeys Director Silviu Stoian] made a very important statement in his opening remarks. E57 files being an open format and fully realizing there will be MSPs [Matterport Service Providers] delivering E57 files for MEP/AEC industry. The important part is, don’t deliver them if you can’t even … load those E57 files into a tertiary program such as Autodesk ReCap CloudCompare and do some QA/QC on them; [otherwise] you’re selling a bullet to a murderer, basically.
Richard “RJ” Johnson Managing Partner 3DLS.XYZ www.3DLS.XYZDan Smigrod: - You bet. And Atlanta-based RC Monkeys [www.RCmonkeys.com] Director Silviu Stoian. Hey, Silviu.
[00:01:43]
Silviu Stoian: - Hey Dan, thank you for the introduction.
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Dan Smigrod: - You bet. Before we jump into the topic, tell us about your company, RJ.
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Richard “RJ” Johnson: - We are what we call ourselves the Reality Capture Company. We only deliver the data to companies like Silvio, John and other people so we capture Point Clouds, photogrammetry, drone imagery, thermal data and deliver it to the users for modeling and drafting.
Our company name is actually the acronym for LiDAR scanning, 3D LiDAR scanning, hence 3DLS.XYZ ...
[00:02:22]
Dan Smigrod: - 3DLS.XYZ ... John, you actually have two organizations. Can you tell us about ARC as well as the U.S. Institute of Building Documentation?
[00:02:33]
John Russo: - Yeah, of course, thanks. ARC is my service provider company. I’m a licensed architect that specializes in building documentation.
In doing so, ARC has been around for 26 years. U.S. Institute of Building Documentation, USIBD is a non-profit membership organization dedicated to supporting all stakeholders with an interest in building documentation. A lot of different types of people join that organization. Architects, engineers, surveyors, service providers, all kinds of people.
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Dan Smigrod: - Awesome and Silviu, RC Monkeys?
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Silviu Stoian: - Yeah. We are a reality capture company. RC actually comes from Reality Capture. What we do is provide turnkey building documentation, the deliverables, with a focus on historic buildings.
We’re going to try to provide a complete view of what’s there in the field and try to deliver it in a manner that’s easy to understand by architects, engineers and owners.
[00:03:51]
Dan Smigrod: - Awesome. Let’s assume that the WGAN-TV audience members are Matterport Service Providers that are not technical. MSPs that may be talking with architects, engineers and construction professionals. This topic may sound a little bit like a foreign language that needs translation into super-simple English. RJ, I’m going to ask you a simple question. Can the Matterport Pro3 Camera be used for As-Builts?
[00:04:28]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: - Well, not a simple question. There are -[00:04:31]
Dan Smigrod: - Simple question to ask. ;-)
[00:04:33]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: - There are applications where it can fill a need. Matterport Service Providers traditionally captured from showcase photogrammetry, real perspective, and fully aware that Matterport providers are entering the industry.
The one big caveat I will say is when you’re capturing for geometry, your principles of how you’re capturing a space are completely different than capturing for a nice visual tour. The requirements are very different. Matterport, as one instance and then I’ll pass it off, says to scan each side of a doorway and never scan the center of a doorway.
When you need geometry in your data, you absolutely need the center of every threshold and you need more stations [scan points]. Not from a visual perspective, but from a geometry perspective. There’s a big caveat on how they use their camera.
[00:05:30]
Dan Smigrod: - First, why don’t you talk to us about what As-Builts means to you? Again, I want to re-ask that question. Can a Matterport Pro3 Camera be used for As-Builts?
[00:05:43]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: - As-Builts can be a broad spectrum. This is where definition comes in hard because we can be ‘As-Building’
a building, I’m doing one right now from commercial use going to residential. We need to be able to locate every pipe in that building to within 10 millimeters.
A Matterport will never achieve that. Now, if I’m looking for floorboard and wallboard estimates, yes it fulfills that need. The Level of Accuracy (LOA) is going to really dictate how far you can go.
[00:06:18]
Dan Smigrod: - John?
[00:06:20]
John Russo: - Yeah. I mean, the Matterport is a tool in our toolbox. Each tool has a purpose, some tools are really good at one thing and not so at another.
I think we’re all aware how amazing the Matterport imagery is. I say the Point Cloud data that you can get out of it isn’t as good. That’s why when we’re doing measurements, we typically prefer to use a traditional laser scanner, like a tripod-based scanner.
But, there’s a lot of uses and I always say, “intent defines process” ... So once you know the intent of what you’re trying to do, then you can come up with the process, select the right tools to achieve that.
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Dan Smigrod: - What would be the intentions that would enable a MSP to use a Matterport Pro3 Camera?
[00:07:25]
John Russo: - For an As-Built?
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Dan Smigrod: - Yes.
[00:07:28]
John Russo: - For an As-Built I guess it is as Richard was saying, if you’re going to go in and you want to get pipes and things that have maybe a tighter tolerance, it’s probably not the best tool. If you’re going in to do something, maybe more for preliminary design; something where the tolerances aren’t as critical, then it might be a reasonable tool to use.
[RC Monkeys Director Silviu Stoian] made a very important statement in his opening remarks. E57 files being an open format and fully realizing there will be MSPs [Matterport Service Providers] delivering E57 files for MEP/AEC industry. The important part is, don’t deliver them if you can’t even … load those E57 files into a tertiary program such as Autodesk ReCap CloudCompare and do some QA/QC on them; [otherwise] you’re selling a bullet to a murderer, basically.
Richard “RJ” Johnson Managing Partner 3DLS.XYZ www.3DLS.XYZ
You can also use it in conjunction with a laser scanner. For example, we like to use it that way where we get good high-quality measurements from the laser scanner, but we use the high-quality imagery from the Matterport model so that we can be watching that as we’re modeling things from the Point Cloud data. It’s still a very useful tool for us.
But we’re leveraging what it’s really good at versus maybe what is not as good at.
[00:08:41]
Dan Smigrod: - Is there --
[00:08:41]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: - I’ll jump in there John, sorry Dan. John’s comment about using them in conjunction: we do exactly that purpose, so we capture the Matterport for the imagery simultaneously while we’re laser scanning.
We will have one operator at site with two to three devices capturing both things simultaneously and we’ll deliver the imagery of Matterport for the photo record and for people that aren’t technically app at using the other programs. Then we deliver the Point Clouds for geometry and intensity-only views.
[00:09:16]
Dan Smigrod: Silviu, do you have initial thoughts on the Matterport Pro3 Camera for As-Builts?
[00:09:22]
Silviu Stoian: Yes. When we talk about As-Builts, I think John said it right where the intent defines the process. The way I would look at As-Builts, they can be various things. We can look at 2D As-Builts. They can be drawings, they can be very accurate or schematic.
For instance, from the Matterport platform, they say it’s a schematic floor plan. You can get three-dimensional As-Builts. Getting a three-dimensional As-Built involves a completely different process that is a lot more complex where you need that higher
degree of accuracy that certain instruments provide.
Understanding what the end goal is, will determine what you can use it for. Surprisingly, Richard and I were talking about some of the improvements that have happened since I purchased the Matterport Pro3 Camera, probably just a few weeks after it was launched.
Those first weeks, it was a disaster in terms of the data that was coming out of it. Not the imagery, but the Point Cloud data. Now, things have improved dramatically. I’m actually quite impressed by where it is today compared to six months ago.
The way we use it, for instance, we have a slightly different approach. We still use it as a supplementary data set for our project. We also use it as a repository where we store additional close-up imagery.
For instance, we want to take a closer look at a window sill or a profile. Something that is very hard to get with a 360 camera or with a scanner. We’re going to take a DSLR camera to take that close up photo.
Then we can add it as a tag within our Matterport tour, as well as voice notes and written field notes. We’d like to have all of that in one place where both us, the team that will develop As-Built documentation as well as our clients will have access later. Probably every user is going to use it differently. But it’s definitely a tool for As-Builts because As-Built can be defined as different types of deliverables.
[00:11:54]
Dan Smigrod: When we’re talking about As-Builts, if you’re talking about As-Built in terms of photography, the Pro3 checks the box?
[00:12:04]
Silviu Stoian: Definitely one of the best.
[00:12:09]
Dan Smigrod: In terms of additional ways to annotate or document. But I think what I’m hearing is visual-visual-visual: not the data, not the data.
[00:12:19]
Silviu Stoian: Visual, visual. Richard and I were talking yesterday about this, “hey, I just did an overlay of a 30,000 square foot building, three levels, exterior/interior with a Leica scanner, a RTC360, and then a Matterport Pro3 Camera, to supplement for imagery.
We’re always curious to see how close the LiDAR data, the Point Cloud data from the Matterport Pro3 Camera, was to the Leica RTC360 data. Surprisingly, somebody can actually create a model and not to the level of detail that we created from the RTC360 data.
But somebody can do a much lower Level of Detail [LOD] model. For instance, they will not be able to extract the profiles for a window or for the crown moldings or any other facade details. But just to get the general mass of a building within an inch, an inch and a half, overall accuracy. Yes. That can be possible.
[00:13:22]
Dan Smigrod: Is RTC a file format that’s coming from a higher, more expensive, more accurate LiDAR scanner?
[00:13:34]
Silviu Stoian: The Leica RTC360 3D Laser Scanner, that is the name of the scanner. I’ll say a mid-tier scanner or towards the midtier to high-tier scanner. The file formats are whatever you want to export, but it is an E57 file if you want to do E57 files.
[00:13:55]
Dan Smigrod: We’ll come back to E57 and the data files in a second. I would like to go back to John, for a moment. Because you mentioned intent and that seems like such a keyword in our conversation and that you’re also an architect.
John, I could imagine that there are architects that say, “I just want to get the data so that I can import it into a CAD program to do the first phase of my project, which is re-imagining an existing space.” Correct me if I’m wrong, but “I don’t care that they’re precise in any sense. I just need to be able to propose to my client what that space will look like.”
That second is if the client approves the project, and maybe this is not a huge project on the scale and scope that you all work on.
But for that second phase, I just need to be able to give a 3D model to vendors in order for them to quote whether it’s paint or floor; that they have enough surface. But when it comes time to actually do installations, the vendors are going to do their own measurements, and not rely on the data that we provide to them anyway. Can you comment on that, John? The intent and then that use case from an architect’s perspective?
[00:15:33]
John Russo: Yeah. It’s an excellent question, Dan. Of course you could use that [Pro3] data for early design and planning.
I think a lot of architects probably don’t care a whole lot about tight accuracies at that stage of design. It could be a great tool. In fact, a lot of times in early design, you may be working on a project that never goes beyond that.
You may not want to spend a lot of time, and effort and money to get a high Level of Accuracy (LOA) at that stage if it doesn’t progress out of design, as far as it being useful.
Now, the one thing you have to be careful of is, say you create plans or a model out of that [Pro3] data, it’s probably going to look really good. You get a really good sense of confidence when you see hard line work from a CAD file or from a Revit model.
There’s a sense of confidence that people get just by looking at it. However, if it’s based on [Pro3] data that’s not so accurate, it’s only as accurate as the data that it was built from.
It may suit the purpose and intent of early design, but as it progresses through to later stages of design and/or into construction, if people don’t realize what the intent of that model was, it suited designed perfectly, but later down stream, it may not be suitable anymore and you may not know it, if that’s not conveyed to somebody.
[RC Monkeys Director Silviu Stoian] made a very important statement in his opening remarks. E57 files being an open format and fully realizing there will be MSPs [Matterport Service Providers] delivering E57 files for MEP/AEC industry. The important part is, don’t deliver them if you can’t even … load those E57 files into a tertiary program such as Autodesk ReCap CloudCompare and do some QA/QC on them; [otherwise] you’re selling a bullet to a murderer, basically.
Richard “RJ” Johnson Managing Partner 3DLS.XYZ
There is a little bit of a risk with that. You can always say, the architects love to say, “contractor to verify.” That’s one of our favorite notes to put on a plan. I guess my question back is, “how much risk do you carry as the author of that, if other people get their hands on it and they don’t understand what its original intent was?”
[00:17:59]
John Russo: Actually, John, I want to say something there you touched on something very important. The hard line drawings look really good all the time in the 3D models.
Whether a person creates the hard line drawings from the worst, most inaccurate Point Cloud in the world, or the best submillimeter Point Cloud in the world, those 3D drawings are going to look more or less the same. But, the accuracy of them could be completely out to lunch. When people are looking at plans and drawings, they don’t know the background information.
[00:18:31]
John Russo: Yeah.
[00:18:34]
Dan Smigrod: - But I think what I’m hearing is that if the intent is early design and planning purposes and if perhaps that might save, correct me if I’m wrong, but that might save a lot of time and money, perhaps by being able to have a service provider use a Matterport Pro3 and perhaps can do the job faster and for less money, than a higher end scanner that is long as all those disclosures that are there. Would you still be okay with that?
Let me add a caveat because I think what I’ve heard from all three of you correct me if I’m wrong, but whenever you do scanning, you’re already doing scanning twice.
You’re using Matterport for the As-Built photography and visual documentation, and you’re using a much higher-end LiDAR scanner for the scan data. Is there a happy compromise here? Because all we’re saying perhaps is there is a Phase 1, and that Phase 1 may never get to Phase 2? All the client really wants to do is begin the early imagination of a renovation of an existing space?
[00:19:59]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: - From my end as providing just raw data to architects and engineers, mechanical contractors.
Honestly, let’s say we’re talking about projects of 20,000 square feet and smaller, on average, for 75% of our work. My time delivery is still going to be a 48-hour turnaround to give you both products, and the price difference on a small project like that is, honestly, we’re not even talking the cost of what they’re going to use to cover the project and round board when they go to work.
The price difference is -- To alleviate the risk, the price difference on that initial capture of 20,000 square feet isn’t even something on a project to talk about.
[00:20:48]
Dan Smigrod: - So if it’s 20,000 square feet or less and you have one person on site doing scanning, can they use two different devices during that one day of labor and successfully complete both with two pieces of technology?
Is that the right way to ask it? I’m going to assume that you have a day rate and you’re not going to do anything less than a day and therefore you still have the time to use a second scanner, is that...?
[00:21:19]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: - Brutal honesty on those projects, interior projects, 20,000 square feet and smaller. I’m typically just giving them the Matterport [model] and not even saying anything about it. I charged them for the 3D Point Cloud and gave them the Matterport.
I actually just transfer to them the Matterport tour, I don’t even charge to host. “Here’s your Point Cloud, and here’s your Matterport, and I’ve given you the correct data. It’s up to you now.”
[00:21:48]
Dan Smigrod: - I think what I’m hearing is that if I place an order with 3DLS.XYZ, I’m buying the hamburger and the french fries are free.
[00:22:06]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: - Yeah. The Matterport [model] is free. On the smaller projects interior, yeah. We just give it away.
[00:22:13]
Dan Smigrod: - If you’re a Matterport Service Provider and you may not have a Leica BLK360, first or second generation, you may not even have a higher-end scanner than that, is there a niche that can be carved out for Matterport Pro3 Camera service providers to say, we can do As-Builts, provided that is for early design and planning and for the visual documentation.
But to put some long sentences in there to qualify the accuracy of the data?
[00:22:48]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: - The long sentence is important and this is what people don’t realize. An off measurement on that preliminary data could be delayed occupancy permits, of which when you go to arbitration, they’re going to look at you as a service provider and say, “is your data suit for the purpose that you delivered it?”
You can’t stumble on that answer, and if you stumble on that answer in arbitration, your firm will be sued for all delayed occupancy-related redesign costs, related rental costs, other businesses that were waiting for occupancy, and possibly even lost revenue of those other businesses.
That’s the big risk. We’re talking about, let’s say a $5,000 job and you’re going to risk $10 million in arbitration. For me personally, I just won’t deliver it because the arbitration risk is far too great.
[00:23:38]
Silviu Stoian: - Can I interject? You said something, Dan, that you said, can a service provider use a Matterport Pro3 Camera to provide an As-Built or a Point Cloud to be the basis for creating a conceptual or work on the conceptual design. I will say it is risky to work on large spaces because you have absolutely no control over the end product.
You can follow the best workflow. As Richard said, scanning the doorways, scanning in front the doorway, behind the doorway, and then right in the doorway. But you are going to be met with different site conditions. You might have surfaces that reflect the LiDAR differently or absorb the LiDAR differently than others.
You might have high vegetation environments where you have absolutely no control over the registration; that is stitching the actual scans together. Maybe the visual tour looks okay. But if you’re providing the E57 file as a deliverable, the Point Clouds that comes off of the Matterport Pro3 Camera, you don’t know what you’re going to get.
As a service provider, you need to have a tool to validate how good your data is. If you say that on average you’re getting a plus, minus an inch and a half accuracy. How can you validate that when you deliver it to the client?
You should have something, for instance, it’s a free tool, like Autodesk ReCap, or least important in their custom sections through it and see if the scans stitch together well. If they don’t, you know how to fix it. Is it fixable? Those are questions that somebody should ask themselves before they deliver something like that to an architect.
[00:25:36]
Dan Smigrod: - John?
[00:25:38]
John Russo: - Yeah.
[00:25:39]
Dan Smigrod: - John?
[00:25:45]
John Russo: - Yep. I think that’s really important what Silviu brought up because again, you need to make sure that whoever you’re providing this for has clarity on what the use can be good for and things that it isn’t good for.
I would make sure that you spell that out clearly in your contract; what the intent is with it, but also make sure that you have some really good discussions upfront so that they know and they don’t think they can move forward beyond that stage or use it for some other purpose that maybe they’re not telling you about.
[00:26:33]
Dan Smigrod: I believe there’s consensus on the visual part that the Matterport Pro3 Camera is great on the visual and anything in terms of visual documentation; checks the box.
Going to the data, Silviu, you mentioned the E57 file, so Matterport provides the option of both a Matterport MatterPak and a Matterport E57 file. Can you talk perhaps about those two deliverables, plus versus using a Leica RTC360 or higher-end scanner to generate an E57 file? Is that enough?
[00:27:21]
Silviu Stoian: Sure. I can definitely provide insight when it comes to the Matterport Pro3 Camera. Maybe Richard can talk about the Matterport Pro2 Camera to see how the E57 compares to the MatterPak deliverable.
[RC Monkeys Director Silviu Stoian] made a very important statement in his opening remarks. E57 files being an open format and fully realizing there will be MSPs [Matterport Service Providers] delivering E57 files for MEP/AEC industry. The important part is, don’t deliver them if you can’t even … load those E57 files into a tertiary program such as Autodesk ReCap CloudCompare and do some QA/QC on them; [otherwise] you’re selling a bullet to a murderer, basically.
Richard “RJ” Johnson Managing Partner
But in terms of the E57, the E57 is a non-proprietary file format, and within that file format, you have different layers of information. You have the LiDAR information that the Matterport Pro3 captures, so those are points in space with XYZ values, as well as you have information about the colorization, the red, green and blue values of each point within the Point Cloud.
The Matterport Pro3 Camera scans and takes photos at the same time. The scanner superimposes the colors of images on top of the Point Cloud that it captures.
Within that E57, you get XYZ values of each point within each station as well as you get colorization information for those points, and you also get the 360 image that comes from the Matterport Pro3 Camera.
[00:28:43]
Dan Smigrod: Let me ask my question slightly differently. A Matterport Service Provider has no idea other than in Matterport Workshop, they can order E57 files.
[00:28:52]
Silviu Stoian: Yeah.
[00:28:53]
Dan Smigrod: Help us understand when either of you have probably taken a Matterport E57 file and scanned the identical space with a high-end laser scanner, please compare. Is the Pro3 E57 file slightly off? Is it off by a big amount? What gives you all this angst when you compare the E57 file from Matterport to a higher-end LiDAR scan?
[00:29:24]
Silviu Stoian: Dan, when you refer to being off, are you referring to geometrical accuracy?
[00:29:30]
Dan Smigrod: I don’t know. Help me understand what matters? What’s the right way to understand the E57 data file?
[00:29:41]
Silviu Stoian: It depends. If you just want to get the 360 imagery, and I think Richard can go into detail how he’s using it using a third-party platform, then yeah, you get actually better visuals within that E57 file than what you get from the Leica RTC360 camera or something like a Z+F IMAGER, which are some of the best scanners for colorized scans on the market.
[00:30:10]
Dan Smigrod: But?
[00:30:12]
Silviu Stoian: But, in terms of geometry, the XYZ values for those points. The price difference between the Leica RTC360 is 15 times more expensive.
[00:30:28]
Dan Smigrod: Okay. Awesome. I hear everybody’s angst about the data.Pro3 data. You would never use Matterport Pro3 Camera on anything that accuracy mattered and the difference in quoting the project between using what you might say is the right LiDAR scanner tool versus a Matterport Pro3 Camera is the difference between night and day.
That said, Silviu, I’m hearing from you that the Point Cloud looks pretty good that’s viewable in the Matterport E57 file. Is there any reason that you would use the Matterport E57 file color Point Cloud to do something from an architect’s perspective, an engineer’s perspective, a construction professional’s perspective, somebody that’s drawing a BIM model? Is the E57 file from Matterport helpful at all?
[00:31:27]
Silviu Stoian: It is. Let’s say I didn’t have the option to use any other tool and somebody gave me a Point Cloud generated with the Matterport Pro3 Camera.
First thing, us as a company providing As-Builts, I would just check to make sure that if we have any misalignments between stations [scan points]. If that’s the case, then we would have to have a discussion with the client showing those instances.
[00:31:53]
Dan Smigrod: Station means?
[00:31:55]
Silviu Stoian: Station means the position of where you place the camera, and you move it around, that’s a station. But if everything looks okay, even though the data is noisy, somebody that knows how to interpret a Point Cloud, somebody that understands how buildings are built -- go together and assemble a model or draw a drawing, they can put something together. Again, John mentioned this, it’s within a certain Level of Accuracy (LOA) and that needs to be stipulated on the drawings so the clients understand the limitations.
[00:32:33]
Dan Smigrod: One of the products Matterport offers is a BIM file that is created from a Matterport Pro3 Camera for that matter, a Pro2, a Pro2 Lite, a Pro1.
[00:32:42]
Silviu Stoian: Yes. I would question that product. Yes, I would definitely question that product.
[00:32:53]
John Russo: It’s confusing.
[00:32:55]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: Sorry.
[00:32:55]
John Russo: Go ahead, Richard.
[00:32:57]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: I think that goes back to my statement about John’s stuff earlier. A model, nobody knows what the background information is when they’re delivered a model. People create LOD300 models from hand measures and Leica DISTOs. It doesn’t even need to be scanned or photographed.
John, about three months ago, you rehashed an old BOMA lease area plan your firm had done with the old technology of hand measurements in Leica DISTOs and you guys went back and laser scanned it with the Leica RTC360. The difference is, and we’re talking using Lecia DISTOs and architects’ knowledge that the laser scan was astronomical.
[00:33:39]
John Russo: It was. The building had a lot of weird angles to it, so it was not an easy measure by hand. Even using best practices, we ended up with a CAD file As-Built that looked really good.
We published that to our client and that’s what was used for many years. It wasn’t until quite a few years later, we went back.
They had us rescan the space to do some updates. This time we’re like, “Oh! Let’s overlay our scan data with the CAD file that we had done many years ago by hand” and we’re curious, but also a little nervous to see what it would show. Sure enough, it was off quite a bit.
[00:34:40]
Dan Smigrod: Was that with the Pro3 or that was with a high-end scan?
[00:34:47]
John Russo: I think we used a FARO laser scanner.
[00:34:51]
Dan Smigrod: Let’s bring it back to the Matterport Pro3 Camera. Do you have angst that Matterport offers BIM files?
[00:35:00]
John Russo: I do.
[00:35:01]
Dan Smigrod: Any of the Matterport models scanned with a Pro3, Pro2, Pro1, BLK360 first-generation (coming soon, BLK360 second-generation)?
[00:35:10]
John Russo: I think it’s all using the same underlying data that we have a problem with. The problem is you’re going to get this BIM model and it’s going to look great.
You’re gonna pull up your Matterport imagery and you’re going to go in and look and compare and go, is this modeled right? It probably is going to look a lot like the imagery that you see in your Matterport tour.
But the measurements that are behind constructing that BIM are still from that not so good Point Cloud data that the Matterport is going to generate.
[00:35:53]
Dan Smigrod: Help me out because you probably know. What BIM level does Matterport offer? Is it LOD100? Is it LOD200? Is it LOD300? What point are you nervous, LOD300, LOD200, LOD100?
[00:36:11]
John Russo: Well I think you have to understand what LOD is, first of all. Level of Development (LOD) is the degree to which you create a model. The lower the level, LOD100 is a very basic form. It’s more of a massing model.
There’s not much detail in that. As you go to LOD200, it’s still generic, say wall assemblies. You’re going to have a certain degree of accuracy with the geometry and you’re not going to be expecting to see a lot of fine detail on those elements.
[RC Monkeys Director Silviu Stoian] made a very important statement in his opening remarks. E57 files being an open format and fully realizing there will be MSPs [Matterport Service Providers] delivering E57 files for MEP/AEC industry. The important part is, don’t deliver them if you can’t even … load those E57 files into a tertiary program such as Autodesk ReCap CloudCompare and do some QA/QC on them; [otherwise] you’re selling a bullet to a murderer, basically.
Richard “RJ” Johnson Managing Partner 3DLS.XYZ www.3DLS.XYZ
When you get to LOD300, it changes the equation a bit because now by definition, LOD300 requires information on the assembly, what’s inside the wall. Whether you’re using a Matterport Camera or whether you’re using a high-end terrestrial laser scanner, that’s a concealed condition. They’re not going to capture that information.
[00:37:20]
Dan Smigrod: Totally get it. Would you feel comfortable if a Matterport Pro3 Camera was used to create a BIM file of LOD200 or less?
[00:37:34]
John Russo: I could if I knew what that purpose it was going to be used for is.
[00:37:40]
Dan Smigrod: I think the purpose is still very important.
[00:37:43]
John Russo: Yeah. I wouldn’t use it for construction documents. I wouldn’t feel comfortable with that, but maybe for preliminary design or early design.
[00:37:54]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: I think we’re missing a big differentiation here. LOD, especially in the 100 and 200s, has no relevance or definition to the accuracy of that model.
You could have an LOD200 model that’s off by one foot. It’s still an LOD200 model. There’s no reference to accuracy when you’re talking LOD100 and LOD200.
[00:38:18]
Dan Smigrod: Point taken. Before we move on, is there anything else in terms of the Matterport E57 file or for that matter, the Matterport MatterPak; or the E57 as it compares?
I’m just trying to find: is there any carve-out that a Matterport Service Provider could feel comfortable regarding delivering an E57 file and maybe John, that’s back to you in terms of what’s the intent? Is it being used for early design and planning stages and not for construction?
[00:38:53]
John Russo: Yeah. I think for the service provider, they just need to be clear on what they’re handing over. If they can find out from their client what their client’s needs are, then they can decide whether or not they can provide what meets those needs. But I would highly recommend that you talk to your clients and ask them a bunch of questions.
“What do you intend to do with this data?” “I can give you an LOD200 model. But what are you intending on doing with that today and maybe tomorrow?” “Are you going to give this data to someone else?” “What are you going to tell them if you give it to them?”
[00:39:36]
Dan Smigrod: Yeah. There’s not too much information on the Matterport website. When I go to look at the Matterport BIM File Support page -- www.WGAN.INFO/MPBIM -- all it says is, “Use a Matterport Pro3, Pro2, Pro2 Lite, Pro1 or BLK360 camera.
These cameras provide depth required for BIM 3D modeling.” I think what I’m hearing, that’s not sufficient information for a Matterport Pro3 Camera to tell the potential client that, “well, Matterport says you can use this to create a Matterport BIM file”... That no --
[00:40:21]
Silviu Stoian: You can.
[00:40:24]
John Russo: You’re creating a BIM file.
[00:40:25]
Silviu Stoian: You can create a BIM from it. I can do it day and night.
[00:40:31]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: Silviu made a very important statement in his opening remarks. E57 files being an open format and fully realizing there will be MSPs delivering E57 files for MEP/AEC industry.
The important part is, don’t deliver them if you can’t even put them into CloudCompare or Autodesk ReCap and do some QA/QC on what you’re delivering. If you can’t load those E57 files into a tertiary program such as Autodesk ReCap CloudCompare, and do some QA/QC on them, you’re selling a bullet to a murderer, basically.
[00:41:16]
Dan Smigrod: Again, it’s a very interesting thing, having gone to SPAR 3D going back many years, I think what I’ve sensed is off on the left side are photographers that are moving in the direction of scanning and on the right side are people who do scanning moving in the direction of photographers. It’s just like a train meeting in the middle of the country.
But those that do the scanning as a professional living, perhaps have a hard time with Matterport Service Providers that have no idea and no understanding of the scan data and how to evaluate whether you’re giving a bullet to a murderer that makes you feel super-uncomfortable. I’m trying to look for what’s the mid-ground that an MSP might feel comfortable with.
It sounds like the MSP needs to say to the client, “look, this is what I can provide you, but I have no ability to tell you the Level of Accuracy (LOA) of this data. Only if you do some basic measurements on site and compare it to something.... “
Help me out here. It’s like, can a Matterport Service Provider shift this conversation to the client to say, “hey, Matterport tells me it’s +/- 20 millimeters at 10 meters, but that’s all I know.”
“Matterport says you can make a BIM file from this, but that’s all I know.” “This is way beyond my level of expertise. I want to be careful, I don’t give you something that exceeds your expectation of what you’ll be able to do with it.” “Certainly, if you’re going to go do construction, I think clearly, that is frightening.”
[00:43:08]
Silviu Stoian: Actually you made a very good point, Dan, here I think a service provider, the way they can package their service is
to have a very clear contract regarding what their role is.
Their role can be just, “I’m capturing the space using the best methodology or capturing the geometry. I don’t know what we’re going to get out of it.
I’m going to hand you the data, and you’re responsible for checking it and maybe correcting it if that’s what you want, but I am following the best practice and that is as much as I can do. I cannot control how well the scans are aligned with each other.
I cannot control a lot of things.” If I were in their shoes and I don’t have any surveying experience, “I’m not an architect, or I’m not a structural engineer,”
I would craft my contract in a way that makes the client responsible for checking the output. In terms of the BIM, I will not even go there, that is a dangerous territory or somebody that’s not an architect.
[00:44:22]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: Silviu, I will say this. The price Matterport charges for their BIM Files, I can hire RC Monkeys to make me a far superior product -- files.
[00:44:31]
Silviu Stoian: Actually, we charge three times more than that.
[00:44:34]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: But no, their price for what you’re getting is outrageous. It’s absolutely outrageous.
[00:44:42]
Dan Smigrod: Well, maybe where the opportunity is, there are many companies that operate across the United States that engage Matterport Service Providers who are using these files to create BIM models and do other things but they have the expertise to do all the things that you’re describing, to put all the limitations on it, know what the intended use case is, etc.
Maybe a Matterport Service Provider is a little bit safer when their sub/contracting work, perhaps to a company that has licensed architects on staff, has surveyors on staff, has the expertise to make sure that that data is not used for something that it can’t be used for without perhaps creating some huge liability for the service provider, creating some huge problem for the end client.
[00:45:44]
[RC Monkeys Director Silviu Stoian] made a very important statement in his opening remarks. E57 files being an open format and fully realizing there will be MSPs [Matterport Service Providers] delivering E57 files for MEP/AEC industry. The important part is, don’t deliver them if you can’t even … load those E57 files into a tertiary program such as Autodesk ReCap CloudCompare and do some QA/QC on them; [otherwise] you’re selling a bullet to a murderer, basically.
Richard “RJ” Johnson Managing Partner3DLS.XYZ
www.3DLS.XYZ
Silviu Stoian: Dan, also something that I don’t think any of us mentioned here. If we’re talking about nice images and geometry captured at a high/speed, right now the service providers might compete with somebody with a mobile scanner.
We’re not talking about terrestrial, we’re talking about something in between Matterport and terrestrial. I can move at, I’ll say at a tenth of the speed of Matterport Service Provider.
[00:46:16]
Dan Smigrod: In terms of speed, I think that leads us to the next easy question to ask, RJ, can the Matterport Pro3 Camera be used for weekly construction documentation?
[00:46:31]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: I will resort back to the same statement. It’s a fantastic photogrammetric visual of your construction progress.
And that’s why we got Matterport years ago because laser scanners traditionally only capture an intensity view. Somebody decided they wanted color with that, I don’t know why, I still can’t understand why. But anyways, we thought scanners in that era, it was taking 10 minutes per station location [scan point] to get images out of a scanner.
It was a huge time burden on the high-end scanners. Matterport filled a real niche there, which is still a valuable niche of the visual and they’re fantastic at it. If Matterport stays visual, it’s a fantastic tool.
I would never question the use visually and we still deliver the color of Matterport for the photogrammetric tour. We don’t deliver on the Matterport platform, I actually write it out on a different platform, but we still deliver the colorization photo tour with the Matterport camera and not with the laser scanner.
[00:47:43]
Dan Smigrod: Maybe to overstate the obvious and then ask the rest of our panel here if the purpose of the weekly construction documentation is to measure in any way whether the plumbing, the mechanical, the electrical, was placed in the right place? I may be speaking for everybody, the answer is no-no-no-no-no; visual-visual.
[00:48:10]
Silviu Stoian: I’ll say, yes.
[00:48:11]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: Quantity takeoff, go ahead and use it for quantity takeoff. “Yes, they installed these plumbing ducks, yes, they installed the gas lines.”
To state that they were installed within a half-inch tolerance, absolutely not.
[00:48:23]
John Russo: You could also use it just for progress if you’re dealing with pay apps or things like that and you want to see if what they said was installed is actually installed, that would be a really good use case as well.
[00:48:37]
Silviu Stoian: Also for construction progress, I think one component that we’re missing here, it is great for visuals, but Matterport doesn’t have the platform to facilitate construction progress where you have a slider.
You’re like, I want to see the same room every single week and something like OpenSpace or StructionSite or various other tools out there. That is built for construction progress.
[00:49:10]
Dan Smigrod: There is a third-party platform, it’s called SIMLAB STAGES, and it has a Timeline feature and it lets you look side-byside so you can compare it.
With [www.WGAN.info/SIMLABonWGAN] layed-over the top of Matterport, you can have the BIM model to the left in Week 1 construction to the right and the models move in sync. You can have Week 2 construction on the left, Week 3 construction on the right, and as you walk through the space, both move in sync [www.WGAN.info/SIMLABonWGAN].
[00:49:37]
Silviu Stoian: That’s fantastic.
[00:49:38]
Dan Smigrod: That’s SIMLAB STAGES, a third party platform. Are there other use cases for a Matterport Service Provider to use a Matterport Pro3 Camera ...?
I’ve heard visualization for As-Builts, visualization for weekly construction documentation; okay for early design and planning, as long as there’s tons of asterisks so that it doesn’t get used in any other way that somebody might rely on the measurements? Other ways? We started the show talking about benefits and limitations. We talked a lot about limitations, are there other benefits? Sorry, everybody is on mute, I can’t hear you. ;-)
[00:50:28]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: I think the best Pro3 benefit is the imagery. Honestly, it’s imagery. Also Matterport’s GUI is a fantastic GUI. Their dollhouse is user-friendly, it’s fantastic.
They have a fantastic hosting platform. They have a fantastic Pro3 photo camera. If you keep it to that, you have a fantastic tool to work alongside other proper tools and it does a great job.
[00:50:55]
Silviu Stoian: I guess the other uses that I see, it’s not necessarily related to this particular camera, the Matterport Pro3 Camera, is more related to the platform as Richard mentioned.
You now have enhanced capabilities for collaborations. I love it because I share the Matterport tour with my clients and we can create issue tags in there. It’s not very sophisticated, but it’s something to be mentioned that you can use it for collaboration and it’s not limited to a number of users.
We share a link and that link can be given to anyone. As long as you keep the space up, then it’s a huge benefit.
[00:51:51]
Dan Smigrod: I think I should just add something on top of that, Silviu, because even just a couple of weeks ago, we had a team from NSPECT [www.WGAN.info/NSPECTonWGAN], which is a Matterport Partner that sits on top of Matterport for recording inspections, communicating actions and document compliance. It’s a super-sophisticated communication, collaboration, tagging and marking tool. We’ve had a number of shows with some other vendors that do some very interesting things that add value.
I think the interesting thing is that Matterport, has an API/SDK, there are Matterport Partners that can do things as company called Aetos Imaging that sits on top of Matterport that integrates with different facilities management platforms [www.WGAN. info/AETOSonWGAN], so that it’s super-easy to document and communicate for facilities managers and their constituencies.
There are a lot of things that Matterport may have some challenges, but there are a lot of Matterport Partners that are filling that gap in terms of the two things that have come up in terms of side-by-side and documenting, communicating and collaborating around a Matterport tour.
Are there other things that shine when you think of a Matterport Pro3 Camera, besides the visuals? Besides the GUI? Besides the Matterport Showcase? Anything else, specifically in the AEC space that you get excited about? Do you use Matterport for collaboration?
[00:53:44]
Silviu Stoian: Sometimes, yeah. In terms of the Matterport Pro3 Camera, what I love about it, potability. You can not beat that. You just throw it in a backpack and I have one or two. You get so much in a small package.
[00:54:05]
Dan Smigrod: I think I’d like to try and do a little bit of a lightning round here because there are some terms that come up in this AEC space and if you’re a Matterport Service Provider and you’re talking with an architect or somebody in the construction space and they throw out a term, you’re like, deer in the headlights.
I’ll throw out a term, let’s see if we can get a definition and what that means and why that matters. Level of Detail (LOD).
[00:54:36]
Silviu Stoian: - Should we go around or?
[00:54:38]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: - I’ll let John he’s the expert on these.
[00:54:42]
Dan Smigrod: - John you help write the standards or wrote the standards and started the non-profit to develop the standards. Maybe we start with you and if Silviu and RJ want to jump in, but, Level of Detail (LOD)?
[00:54:56]
John Russo: - Well, I didn’t write the Level of Detail (LOD) standard, I worked on the LOA -- Level of Accuracy -- standard.
[00:55:04]
Dan Smigrod: - I’m just looking for a definition from the standpoint of a service provider -- in layman’s terms -- of when somebody says Level of Detail or Level of Development and both are abbreviated LOD, how do they want to respond when they are asked, “What your Level of Detail? What’s your Level of Development when you’re using your Matterport Pro3 Camera?”
[00:55:28]
[RC Monkeys Director Silviu Stoian] made a very important statement in his opening remarks. E57 files being an open format and fully realizing there will be MSPs [Matterport Service Providers] delivering E57 files for MEP/AEC industry. The important part is, don’t deliver them if you can’t even … load those E57 files into a tertiary program such as Autodesk ReCap CloudCompare and do some QA/QC on them; [otherwise] you’re selling a bullet to a murderer, basically.
Richard “RJ” Johnson Managing Partner 3DLS.XYZ www.3DLS.XYZ
John Russo: - How much information are you going to end up representing with what you capture from your Matterport Pro3 Camera is what it comes down to. Are you going to show a low Level of Detail or Level of Development? Or are you going to show a lot?
What’s great about the Matterport is because the imagery is so good, you can see a lot of detail that you can’t see in say, a traditional 360 camera capture that is really pretty poor quality. If you’re going to show a lot of detail and fine information, whether it’s from the imagery or whether it’s from a Point Cloud, I think from the imagery, the Matterport Pro3 Camera is going to really help you.
[00:56:22]
Dan Smigrod: - Does it matter if the scans are closer together or not in terms of the Level of Detail or Level of Development?
[00:56:31]
John Russo: - I think it matters as far as just making sure you’re able to see what you need to see, probably more than anything.
[00:56:39]
Dan Smigrod: - Okay. So that’s just asking the client the question: “do you need to see it at six feet level or two feet level or both?”
[00:56:46]
Silviu Stoian: - Dan, I’d like to add that LOD or Level of Detail does not define what a scanner or a Matterport Pro3 Camera captures. It only defines what is being produced from those mediums. A model can have a Level of Detail, but a scanner cannot.
[00:57:09]
Dan Smigrod: - The Matterport Pro3 Camera has the Level of Accuracy, a LOA? [Silviu: Yes.] What is the Level of Accuracy of a Matterport Pro3 Camera?
[00:57:21]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: - That’s a double-edge question. In a smallish single room with thresholds in geometry, a Matterport Pro3 Camera, let’s say 3,000 square feet and smaller, nice single or double room, very minimal geometric changes, a Matterport Pro3 Camera is going to do okay. The problem is you have no verification on it.
In a single room, you can do wall-to-wall measurements to verify. When you hit thresholds and changes in geometry, there’s no way to verify what you’re getting from the Matterport Pro3 Camera. If it’s a single room, you can definitely verify and do some Leica DISTO measurements wall-to-wall, corner-to-corner and get some repetition.
The minute you start adding in geometry, corridors, thresholds, staircases, because there’s no manual interpretation in the way the alignment of a Matterport Pro3 Camera happens, there is no way I can say if I’m giving you an LOA10 or an LOA50 model.
[00:58:25]
John Russo: - To tag onto that, just because it’s a small room, it still goes back to the intent. Because let’s say we’re doing a window replacement project and you want to know the opening size.
That’s a very small thing to measure, but I don’t know that I’m going to trust the measurements out of a Matterport Pro3 Camera scan, even to take a small relative measurement like that.
[00:58:55]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: - Actually our mutual friend Kevin, he said it the best. Let’s put 99% into real terms. 99% accuracy which Matterport claims means that a 100-foot wall can be 99 feet or 101 feet. That is 99% accurate.
[00:59:12]
Dan Smigrod: - Which is a lot! If you were to build, that’s a problem.
[00:59:21]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: - That’s a problem.
[00:59:23]
Dan Smigrod: - LOA would typically sound like LOA10, LOA20, LOA30, LOA40, LOA50. I could imagine a Matterport Service Provider might be asked, “Can you do LOA30?” It sounds like the answer is stay away from making any commitment in any way regarding the Level of Accuracy (LOA) of a Matterport Pro3 Camera because now somebody is asking you a question that’s probably related to construction and the Matterport Pro3 Camera is not the right tool.
[00:59:52]
John Russo: - Not for an LOA30.
[00:59:55]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: - You could scrape an LOA10 with redundant checks of other measures, and I mean scrape an LOA10. Would that sound fair, John?
[01:00:07]
John Russo: - Probably yeah.
[01:00:09]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: - You could probably scrape by an LOA10 if you had QA/QC verification.
[01:00:16]
Silviu Stoian: - Richard, the project that I was referring to earlier, a 30,000 square foot building. I will say that’s an LOA10, both relative accuracy so you measure a beam or a column, as well as global. You measure the overall length of a building.
[01:00:36]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: - Also Silviu, you are used to scanning a registration so when you’re using a Matterport Pro3 Camera, your stationing and positioning [of a scan location] is with the mindset of geometry of registrations; not with the mindset of the visual tour, and that’s from my opening statement.
An MSP capturing for geometry: it’s a completely different scan capture methodology than capturing for a virtual tour.
[01:01:02]
Silviu Stoian: - I guess the way we capture, we capture for both. Let’s assume we’re missing some data, we need some data from a room. To get that geometry, that Point Cloud, we’re just going to capture for both imagery as well as geometry.
As you said earlier, you’re going to increase the number of setups and then position the scanner strategically to make sure that you have that good overlap between stations [scan points].
[01:01:31]
Dan Smigrod: - John, what are intensity values and why does this matter?
[01:01:37]
John Russo: - Intensity values generally we’re talking about non-colorized data, at least the way I think of it. It’s giving you, let’s say, a Point Cloud that has no intensity value would just be like a monochromatic Point Cloud; just black points. Intensity is intended to give you a sense of depth and help you understand, seeing depth in something, whereas without intensity value it’s going to be really difficult.
[01:02:18]
Dan Smigrod: - Where does the Matterport Pro3 Camera fit into that discussion?
[01:02:22]
Silviu Stoian: - Doesn’t have intensity.
[01:02:25]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: - No Intensity.
[01:02:26]
Silviu Stoian: - Which is strange. To expand on that topic, what intensity is, every surface has the ability to reflect or absorb light.
The Matterport Pro3 Camera uses a light sensor and it shoots a light beam and that beam is being reflected back by a surface. The sensor records the difference between the intensity of the light that left the unit and then that came back and then records a value between 0 and 1.
If you’re scanning a surface that basically has the same property, the intensity values on that surface are going to be close. They just differ. It makes a slight difference based on the angle of incidence.
[01:03:21]
Dan Smigrod: Let me just redirect and just ask, if I’m a Matterport Service Provider, if somebody asked me about intensity values, do I just say, “I’m sorry. That’s over my head. ;-)” Or is there an actual way that they can answer that would be helpful to their client?
[01:03:39]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: Actually Dan, I will say there is just no way they can deliver it because even when you use the Leica BLK360 with the Matterport app, the E57 files derived from Matterport do not carry the intensity values.
Now, if I download that raw BLK360 data and register [align scans] it myself in Leica Cyclone, I get all the intensity values. This leads to Matterport using the LiDAR sensor for photo depth. They derive the Point Clouds from photogrammetry; not from LiDAR.
When we’re working with laser scanning and laser scanners, we derive the Point Cloud from the actual factual LiDAR values and the photo is the secondary aspect. They flip their purposes.
[01:04:24]
Silviu Stoian: Richard, is this -- Sorry Dan. Can I ask a follow-up question?
[01:04:29]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: Yeah.
[01:04:29]
[RC Monkeys Director Silviu Stoian] made a very important statement in his opening remarks. E57 files being an open format and fully realizing there will be MSPs [Matterport Service Providers] delivering E57 files for MEP/AEC industry. The important part is, don’t deliver them if you can’t even … load those E57 files into a tertiary program such as Autodesk ReCap CloudCompare and do some QA/QC on them; [otherwise] you’re selling a bullet to a murderer, basically.
Richard “RJ” Johnson Managing Partner 3DLS.XYZ
www.3DLS.XYZ
Silviu Stoian: Is this applicable to Matterport Pro2 Camera as well as the Matterport Pro3 Camera? Because I thought once they switched to the new Pro3 camera, what you’re actually getting, what you’re getting as a raw data is the LiDAR data.
The first version when [Matterport first released the Pro3 Camera], after a month, I saw the data and it was super-wavy. Something that I got from a photogrammetric process which I thought was just the sensor.
[01:05:06]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: When Matterport first released E57 files about 18 months ago for purchase, they were a really weird E57 file format, but even with the Leica BLK360, you do not get intensity values released at all. It’s all just the photo.
[01:05:27]
Silviu Stoian: You’re saying that with the Leica BLK360, if you’re using just the BLK360 as a tool for capturing the space.
When you download the E57 file from the Matterport platform, is the data noisy or is the data clean as you would see if you register the data and Leica Cyclone REGISTER 360, for instance.
[01:05:45]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: It’s actually very close to Leica Cyclone REGISTER 360, but decreased by about 30% of value of volume.
[01:05:55]
Silviu Stoian: Resolution?
[01:05:55]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: It thins and normalizes the product.
[01:05:59]
Silviu Stoian: That tells me that it is actually the camera of the Leica BLK360 is much lower resolution than the Matterport Pro3 Camera.
If data is not noisy, that means the the values of those points in the E57 might be actually generated based on the LiDAR.
[01:06:18]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: Yeah, it’s a weird thing. I say, it’s really weird because they don’t deliver the intensity values even though the LiDAR’s capturing intensity. It’s a strange black box.
That’s the weird thing I guess, Dan, overall is we don’t know what happens in the black box because we have no interaction if all the data goes together. It’s just, “Here! Let’s hope it’s right” when you purchase it.
[01:06:44]
Silviu Stoian: Dan, the only value for intensity. Or there are a few things, but one of the primary values is that if you’re scanning or capturing a dark space, for instance, you just happen to not be well lit. You can rely on the intensity values to see detail in dark corners. Whereas if the photo is dark, it’s dark, you cannot see anything.
[01:07:10]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: There’s actually quite a few others. Gray piping and mechanical and concrete rooms or as concrete-onconcrete on gray pipe on black pipe, intensity values, you see the difference in every surface to differentiate what every aspect is.
It’s not just all gray; traffic markings on roads that reflective paint absolutely differentiates from asphalt, whereas white paint markings in a photo, you can’t differentiate.
You go into home construction, plywood compared to Oriented Strand Board (OSB) Plywood compared to your spruce lumber, they all reflect differently and you can differentiate -- instantly -- inside intensity view what each one is. Whereas in the photo they all look brown.
[01:07:55]
Silviu Stoian: You can even differentiate between mold stains that were covered.
[01:08:00]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: Wet spots, mold stains, everything.
[01:08:04]
Dan Smigrod: My last super-geeky question, “I’m a Matterport Service Provider and the client says, tell me about your classification and segmentation tools in context to your Matterport E57 file?” Do I just roll over and play dead or is there an actual answer for me?
[01:08:27]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: There’s actual answers. I’ve done this. I take the Matterport E57 files and I drag them into the Leica Cyclone. I can classify and re-register and use other laser scan data to increase the accuracy of the Matterport E57 files, but it’s not from the Matterport platform.
You need a third-party software to classify the data. I will say this. We actually, Silviu, have you seen that chiller room pipe dataset of mine?
[01:08:59]
Silviu Stoian: Yes.
[01:09:00]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: There’s a product out there called EdgeWise. It automatically detects and models mechanical components. EdgeWise grabbed about 20% of the pipes from the Matterport data automatically. It grabbed 97% of the mechanical work from the laser scan data.
Because of the classification and the noisiness in the data, you get some but it’s not as good as a clean LiDAR Point Cloud.
[01:09:28]
Silviu Stoian: Richard, would you mind defining what classification is? Maybe somebody is not very familiar with the process. [01:09:36]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: Well, I’m not a black box magician, but classification actually, so you have a preset library of things such as scaffolding, walls, concrete, artifacts. Inside that routine it analyzes the shape, intensities, colors.
If you have colors, if you have intensities, it uses whatever data it has. This is where some like Riegl software excels because Riegl software will look at all those values and it goes, “okay, you’re a tree leaf, you’re grass, you’re concrete, you’re wall, you’re a pipe, you’re HVAC conduit.”
And classification will automatically detect to, let’s say, 85% accuracy those objects on import to a program.
[01:10:23]
Silviu Stoian: Is grouping points based on classification library?
[01:10:27]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: Yeah.
[01:10:30]
Dan Smigrod: - If you’re a Matterport Service Provider and you’re asked about this topic? I think my answer would be, “I’m so sorry, but this is so over my head, I can do beautiful photography that you can walk through your space and I can provide you an E57 file that’s really only good for early design and planning, not for measurement.” Is that okay? Is that about where we’re ending up here?
[01:11:03]
Silviu Stoian: - Probably.
[01:11:10]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: - You go ahead.
[01:11:10]
Silviu Stoian: - It’s not a topic that I would even bring up with a client.
[01:11:21]
Dan Smigrod: - Before we say bye, I thought I would just go back to each of you and say, you’re counseling a Matterport Service Provider. They have a Matterport Pro3 Camera. They’re trying to figure out how to develop business. What would you say to them, RJ?
[01:11:46]
[RC Monkeys Director Silviu Stoian] made a very important statement in his opening remarks. E57 files being an open format and fully realizing there will be MSPs [Matterport Service Providers] delivering E57 files for MEP/AEC industry. The important part is, don’t deliver them if you can’t even … load those E57 files into a tertiary program such as Autodesk ReCap CloudCompare and do some QA/QC on them; [otherwise] you’re selling a bullet to a murderer, basically.
Richard “RJ” Johnson Managing Partner 3DLS.XYZ www.3DLS.XYZ
Richard “RJ” Johnson: - I would say you have a fantastic tool to sell for progress via visualization. I would never deliver geometry from it. I recently did a 6,000 square foot hotel lobby with a Matterport Pro2 Camera and a laser scanner, not the Matterport Pro3 Camera.
The longest dimension inside that open lobby was off by 40 centimeters. [40 cm = 15.748 inches], but it was out by 40 centimeters, that’s half a meter almost, so over a foot, longitudinally. Depending on the quality of your finishes, if we’re talking marble tile, that foot, even to use for rough estimates, could be a huge dollar value on a project.
Now, if we’re talking just chip rock and carpet, who cares, an extra foot here and there. But that would be my premise. If I’m happy to say within a foot, I’m happy within a foot. If we want to talk to inches, I would not even risk it.
[01:12:50]
Dan Smigrod: - Silviu?
[01:12:51]
Silviu Stoian: - I will say if somebody wants to get into or start a business where they can use the Matterport as a platform and the Matterport or Pro3 Camera or Pro2 Camera as a tool, and they don’t want to do residential because you might be small box and small spaces, I would recommend those people to pair with a laser scanning provider, and maybe they can tag along on every single job and they can provide that supplemental data that is needed for creating drawings, for creating models.
I think that would be a great idea maybe to take into account.
[01:13:31]
Dan Smigrod: - In the case of RC Monkeys in Atlanta, do you ever outsource shooting Matterport on a job while you’re using a higher-end scanner?
[01:13:44]
Silviu Stoian: - We do not because most of our jobs are not local; we do historic buildings. It requires travel and sometimes the cost for travel can be higher than the cost for the service.
If we were to do jobs locally, yes. But since we’re traveling sometimes to remote places, it might take two days to get back and forth and only four hours to capture. So that way, we just have our Matterport Pro3 Camera in the backpack and we capture this space while we’re over there.
[01:14:17]
Dan Smigrod: - John, you’re talking to a Matterport Service Provider using a Matterport Pro3 Camera. What do you tell them?
[01:14:23]
John Russo: - I would say if you have a Sawzall reciprocating saw, don’t use it for fine carpentry. Use is the appropriate tool for the appropriate job if you’re wanting to get into something that maybe is beyond the imagery, the strength of the Matterport Pro3 Camera, maybe it’s time to consider the appropriate tool, something that’s a little more suited for what you’re trying to get into. But use it for its strengths, find the use cases that it’s best at.
I like partnering with folks, so if you can find maybe a laser scanning service provider, and like Silviu said, if you can work alongside them, that’s a great way to learn, and you don’t have to buy a laser scanner if you want to get into that, you can rent one and see.
But you may find out that the laser scanning provider that doesn’t have a Matterport Pro3 Camera is going to drag you along on jobs and you can earn some business that way too.
[01:15:36]
Dan Smigrod: - My last question: a Matterport Service Provider has a trusted relationship with a client but lacks the expertise. Do you partner with that Matterport Service Provider? Can they call you and say, “hey, I have this trusted relationship, the client has 100 locations in 37 states.
They’re asking me to use the Matterport Pro3 Camera. I think they’re planning to use some of this stuff for construction. I think I’m way over my head. Are you available to partner with me to work on this potential client?” -- RJ?
[01:16:25]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: - What I do in that instance is with people I can trust through meeting for lunch and having a good conversation, up to the level of a Leica BLK360, I will rent them my BLK360 and provide the registration of that data hourly. I’ll train them to capture it at site, and rent them my BLK360s. Now, BLK360 is still not perfect, but fits a much broader niche. I will rent them that on a day rate and then provide the registration of their data that they capture with my BLK360 hourly. The registration software just jumped to $5,700 a year this year. It’s huge. -- I hear Matterport people complain about [$5,995] Matterport PRo3 camera.
We’re paying $5,700 per license per year just for the registration data. So it’s a different game and, like I say, a trusted relationship, I will rent the BLK360 so they can maintain the face to face relationship with their client, and I’m just in the background. I take my scanner back, register the data and give them the Point Cloud.
[01:17:32]
Dan Smigrod: - Just to follow up on that for clarification. For a Matterport Service Provider who is using a Matterport Pro3 Camera or Matterport Pro2 Camera, for that matter, the workflow of scanning is literally the same using a BLK360 firstgeneration camera paired with the Matterport platform.
The nuance of what we’re talking about though, is rather than ordering an E57 file through Matterport, which gives perhaps you a heart attack, you’re going to take the same data and actually register it, align the data yourself in order to produce an end product that you have confidence regarding the measurements versus, perhaps, using a BLK360 with Matterport’s version of an E57 file.
[01:18:26]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: - We’re able to add redundancy in what’s called closure on the loop. So rather than open-ended measurements from end-to-end, we’re able to form closed loops in redundancy in the data to verify that it closes off on each other.
[01:18:40]
Dan Smigrod: - Silviu, a Matterport Service Provider comes to you and wants to partner because they have a trusted relationship, what do you say?
[01:18:47]
Silviu Stoian: - I’ll say yes as long as there’s a good fit. When I say good fit, like we share values and we’re aligned on the budget, and we have the capability of actually providing the value that their client needs.
If not, we’re always going to help them and try to point them in the right direction. But usually those are the three metrics that we pick for our own clients, budget, values and our own competence.
[01:19:18]
Dan Smigrod: - Is there a fourth consideration which is historic? Is that important?
[01:19:23]
Silviu Stoian: - Yeah. We usually try to pursue historic work and most of our clients are architects and engineers that work with the National Park Service or entities like the National Park Service.
[01:19:33]
Dan Smigrod: - John, Matterport Service Provider comes to you, has a trusted relationship. They are obviously way over their head, but have a huge opportunity.
[01:19:41]
John Russo: - Again, we’ve used partnering as a big part of our business model for many years. For me, a lot of the same thing Silviu said as far as what we would be looking for.
But ultimately it comes down to trust. If they’re bringing me in and I’m helping them with a big opportunity with their client, they need to trust me and I need to trust them as well. If we can establish that trust, then there’s a great opportunity to learn from each other and benefit from each other, and hopefully pass work back-and-forth both ways.
[01:20:22]
Dan Smigrod: - John, RJ, Silviu, thanks for being on the show today.
[01:20:26]
Richard “RJ” Johnson: - Thanks, Dan.
[01:20:28]
Silviu Stoian: - Thank you so much, Dan.
[01:20:29]
John Russo: - Thanks, Dan.
[01:20:29]
[RC Monkeys Director Silviu Stoian] made a very important statement in his opening remarks. E57 files being an open format and fully realizing there will be MSPs [Matterport Service Providers] delivering E57 files for MEP/AEC industry. The important part is, don’t deliver them if you can’t even … load those E57 files into a tertiary program such as Autodesk ReCap CloudCompare and do some QA/QC on them; [otherwise] you’re selling a bullet to a murderer, basically.
Richard “RJ” Johnson Managing Partner3DLS.XYZ
www.3DLS.XYZ
Dan Smigrod: - We’ve been visiting with North Vancouver, Canada-based 3DLS.XYZ Managing Partner Richard “RJ” Johnson. The website is the company name: www.3DLS.XYZ
We’ve also been visiting with Tustin, California-based Architectural Resource Consultants (also known by ARC) President and CEO, as well as US Institute of Building Documentation (www.USIBD.org ) Founder and President John Russo.
The website for ARC is: www.ARC-corporate.com
And we’ve been visiting with Atlanta, Georgia base- RC Monkeys Director Silviu Stoian, and RC Monkeys website is: www.RCmonkeys.com
For RJ, John and Silviu, I’m Dan Smigrod, Founder of the We Get Around Network Forum, and you’ve been watching WGAN Live at 5.
