116-WGAN-TV | How Photographers Can Resist Zillow’s Threat To Monopolize Real Estate by We Get Around Network

WE GET AROUND NETWORK WGAN-TV Live at 5

How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate Thursday, September 2, 2021

WGAN-TV Guest … control your source files. Control the content. That is very valuable to the photographer. When you control the content, that puts you in a really valuable position. You can offer that to your customer. Then it’ll put them in a very valuable position. If you partner with that customer, the real estate agent, the two of you can do a lot of business together, and that’s, I think, a really successful model.

Joe Jesuele Founder and Owner HomeJab

Joe Jesuele

Founder and Owner, HomeJab

www.HomeJab.com

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Guest: HomeJab Founder and Owner Joe Jesuele | Aired: Thursday, 2 September 2021 Episode 116 | www.HomeJab.com

[00:00:03] Dan Smigrod: Hi all, I’m Dan Smigrod, [00:00:04] Dan Smigrod: Founder of the We Get Around Network Forum. [00:00:07] Dan Smigrod: Today is Thursday, September 2, [00:00:09] Dan Smigrod: 2021 and you’re watching WGAN-TV Live at 5. [00:00:15] Dan Smigrod: We have an awesome show for you today: [00:00:18] Dan Smigrod: How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate. [00:00:23] Dan Smigrod: Here to talk to us about this topic is Joe Jesuele, [00:00:27] Dan Smigrod: Founder and owner of HomeJab. [00:00:29] Dan Smigrod: Hey Joe, good to see you. [00:00:31] Joe Jesuele: Good to see you, Dan. Thanks for having me on.

Page 2 of 44

… control your source files. Control the content. That is very valuable to the photographer. When you control the content, that puts you in a really valuable position. You can offer that to your customer. Then it’ll put them in a very valuable position. If you partner with that customer, the real estate agent, the two of you can do a lot of business together, and that’s, I think, a really successful model.

Joe Jesuele

Founder and Owner, HomeJab

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:00:34] Dan Smigrod: Thanks for being on the show. I reached out to you in July, [00:00:38] Dan Smigrod: back when you wrote a very in-depth blog post on HomeJab. [00:00:45] Dan Smigrod: The title of that post was, [00:00:47] Dan Smigrod: How Agents and Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Latest Threat to Monopolize Real Estate. [00:00:54] Dan Smigrod: It was lengthy. It was well-researched. [00:00:58] Dan Smigrod: It was very thoughtful; [00:01:00] Dan Smigrod: and I thought it would be great to have you on the show. Thank you. [00:01:04] Dan Smigrod: I would encourage our viewers to actually Google that [00:01:08] Dan Smigrod: original article, or in fact, go to HomeJab HomeJab.com, [00:01:14] Dan Smigrod: go to the tab “Blog” and go back to the July [2021] blog posts, [00:01:17] Dan Smigrod: or simply Google, “How Agents and Photographers can Resist [00:01:21] Dan Smigrod: Zillow’s Latest Threat to Monopolize [00:01:23] Dan Smigrod: Real Estate.” Or, for our We Get Around Network Forum community – [00:01:27] Dan Smigrod: www.WGANForum.com – just go to the search box and search for Zillow HomeJab; [00:01:33] Dan Smigrod: just search the entire contents of the We Get Around Network Forum and it will pop up. [00:01:38] Dan Smigrod: Joe, before we jump into this topic, [00:01:40] Dan Smigrod: how about first tell us about HomeJab? [00:01:44] Joe Jesuele: Yeah, sure Dan. HomeJab is an online marketplace for real estate photography,

Page 3 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:01:49] Joe Jesuele: but we also do many other services like video walkthroughs, [00:01:53] Joe Jesuele: and aerials, and 3D [00:01:56] Joe Jesuele: virtual tours, virtual staging. [00:01:58] Joe Jesuele: It’s pretty much at any service. [00:02:02] Joe Jesuele: From the photographer’s standpoint, [00:02:04] Joe Jesuele: we’re really the back-end office for a photographer. [00:02:08] Joe Jesuele: We have not only the scheduling software, [00:02:11] Joe Jesuele: but we have a full-time staff that handles any customer support issues. [00:02:16] Joe Jesuele: We do all the editing; [00:02:18] Joe Jesuele: all of the post-production; all sales;

Joe Jesuele

Founder and Owner, HomeJab

[00:02:20] Joe Jesuele: all scheduling; anything that comes up during the process regarding the customer. [00:02:25] Joe Jesuele: It’s the photographer that goes to www. HomeJab.com; [00:02:29] Joe Jesuele: downloads our app, gets approved as a photographer, [00:02:32] Joe Jesuele: and then all you have to do is shoot. [00:02:35] Joe Jesuele: You can make your own schedule and essentially after the shoot is done, [00:02:39] Joe Jesuele: you just upload the raw files to our platform, and then we take it from there. [00:02:43] Joe Jesuele: We’ll handle all that:

Page 4 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:02:45] Joe Jesuele: post-production, editing, media delivery. [00:02:48] Joe Jesuele: We create the property pages, [00:02:49] Joe Jesuele: we handle any marketing advice, MLS integration, [00:02:54] Joe Jesuele: stuff like that, that the real estate agent needs, [00:02:57] Joe Jesuele: and the photographer just has to shoot the property. [00:03:00] Joe Jesuele: Therefore, we make things a little easy for the photographer and also the agent. [00:03:05] Joe Jesuele: We create an easy way to schedule and a fast turnaround time, [00:03:09] Joe Jesuele: you get everything back the next day. [00:03:13] Joe Jesuele: It’s a good system and we’re up and running in 50 states now, [00:03:18] Joe Jesuele: pretty much national, [00:03:19] Joe Jesuele: and things are going pretty well [00:03:23] Joe Jesuele: and we’re looking at a global expansion right now into parts of Europe. [00:03:28] Joe Jesuele: We’re partnering with some people in Europe and in Canada. [00:03:32] Joe Jesuele: So things are moving for us pretty nicely. … WGAN-TV Short Story #2437 [00:03:36] Dan Smigrod: Awesome, you mentioned virtual tours, [00:03:38] Dan Smigrod: which platform or platforms are you using? [00:03:42] Joe Jesuele: Well, we are one of

Page 5 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:03:45] Joe Jesuele: the first companies that started using Matterport and we worked with, [00:03:50] Joe Jesuele: I think Dan, we’ve known each other for [00:03:52] Joe Jesuele: quite a few years, but most recently where we’ve transitioned to EyeSpy360. [00:03:58] Joe Jesuele: There’s many reasons for that, [00:03:59] Joe Jesuele: but one of it has to do with, frankly, [00:04:04] Joe Jesuele: the way that Matterport change up their pricing and the fact [00:04:07] Joe Jesuele: that we’d like to have our tours active indefinitely. [00:04:12] Joe Jesuele: It just wasn’t feasible to do that from a pricing standpoint. [00:04:15] Joe Jesuele: Also, we like to have our control over the editing and

Joe Jesuele

Founder and Owner, HomeJab

[00:04:18] Joe Jesuele: the files and want to have the source files hosted. [00:04:22] Joe Jesuele: That’s what we preach to real estate agents. [00:04:25] Joe Jesuele: Yeah, we are a big fan of EyeSpy360 and friends with the founders there, [00:04:32] Joe Jesuele: and they’re great guys. [00:04:33] Joe Jesuele: So that’s what we use. [00:04:35] Dan Smigrod: All right. Our community We Get Around [00:04:37] Dan Smigrod: Network is pretty Matterport centric. [00:04:40] Dan Smigrod: If you’re shooting Matterport,

Page 6 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:04:42] Dan Smigrod: can you shoot for EyeSpy360 using a Matterport Pro2 3D Camera? [00:04:48] Dan Smigrod: Or, do you need to make the transition to a different 360 camera? [00:04:51] Joe Jesuele: You can use any 360 camera. [00:04:54] Joe Jesuele: I don’t think that you can use the Matterport Pro 3D Camera, [00:04:56] Joe Jesuele: but you can use any 360 camera. [00:04:58] Joe Jesuele: Therefore, it’s pretty much agnostic to the type of 360 camera, [00:05:02] Joe Jesuele: which is one of the reasons we really like it. [00:05:04] Joe Jesuele: Photographers that worked with us can use any equipment which is nice at the same time. [00:05:09] Joe Jesuele: I mean, Matterport does a good job if the customer [00:05:12] Joe Jesuele: requests that will still provide a Matterport tour. [00:05:16] Joe Jesuele: But we found that many of the customers that we work with are very happy [00:05:20] Joe Jesuele: with what they get with EyeSpy360; and in many respects the product is better. [00:05:25] Joe Jesuele: They offer a lot more in terms of the floor plan [00:05:29] Joe Jesuele: is included and you get this live tour if you’re the agent, [00:05:32] Joe Jesuele: you can do a screen share and then have [00:05:36] Joe Jesuele: a call with the customer and tour the property with them. [00:05:40] Joe Jesuele: There are a lot of platforms out there and I don’t think we [00:05:42] Joe Jesuele: want to go over the technical aspects of each one,

Page 7 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:05:44] Joe Jesuele: but we’re really happy working with EyeSpy360. ... WGAN-TV Short Story #2438 [00:05:48] Dan Smigrod: Great. For photographers - real estate photographers - that would like to get going with [00:05:54] Dan Smigrod: HomeJab, go to www. HomeJab.com and next step? [00:06:00] Joe Jesuele: Yeah, it’s pretty easy. [00:06:02] Joe Jesuele: There’s a link to jobs on the bottom of [00:06:04] Joe Jesuele: our website and that’s where we’ll take you through just a few steps. [00:06:07] Joe Jesuele: Give us your basic information,

Joe Jesuele

Founder and Owner, HomeJab

[00:06:09] Joe Jesuele: your equipment, and some links to samples of your work. [00:06:14] Joe Jesuele: Public profiles, your LinkedIn or your websites, stuff like that. [00:06:18] Joe Jesuele: We can see your online presence and then we’ll look at your work, [00:06:22] Joe Jesuele: we’ll look at your equipment, and then usually get approved within a day or two. [00:06:26] Joe Jesuele: Then we’ll give you instructions on how to download our app, [00:06:31] Joe Jesuele: which is how we schedule shoots and we’ll send you our [00:06:34] Joe Jesuele: photographer guide on how to shoot and how to upload the files and that kind of thing. [00:06:38] Joe Jesuele: It’s pretty easy to get up and [00:06:40] Joe Jesuele: running if you’re a professional and you have the right equipment. [00:06:44] Joe Jesuele: If you’re new, just starting out we’re probably not the right fit. Page 8 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:06:49] Joe Jesuele: But, if you are established and know the business, [00:06:51] Joe Jesuele: you have the right equipment, then Homejab can be a great way to get extra jobs, [00:06:58] Joe Jesuele: continue what you’re doing, [00:07:00] Joe Jesuele: but you make your own schedule so you tell us when you have openings, [00:07:04] Joe Jesuele: and then we’ll schedule jobs in those openings. [00:07:07] Joe Jesuele: If you’re busy on the weekends, [00:07:09] Joe Jesuele: you can just work a few days during the week or vice versa. [00:07:13] Joe Jesuele: If you have an open day, [00:07:16] Joe Jesuele: we’ll just schedule for you in that day if [00:07:19] Joe Jesuele: you’re out doing a feature film or commercial for three weeks, [00:07:23] Joe Jesuele: you can put in the app that, “I’ll be back on September 15th,” [00:07:27] Joe Jesuele: and that’s when we’ll start scheduling jobs for you. [00:07:29] Joe Jesuele: It’s nice in that respect and you don’t have to worry [00:07:33] Joe Jesuele: about any customer service or sales or editing, [00:07:37] Joe Jesuele: post-production, any of that stuff we handle all that. [00:07:40] Dan Smigrod: Great. You mentioned that you’re across America, 50 states, [00:07:48] Dan Smigrod: with an eye towards Canada and Europe. [00:07:50] Dan Smigrod: Are you interested in hearing only from Page 9 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:07:53] Dan Smigrod: real estate photographers in the United States or elsewhere as well? [00:07:58] Joe Jesuele: Definitely in Canada as well. We have a lot of customers that are in [00:08:03] Joe Jesuele: the Toronto area and Quebec little bit as well, but mostly Toronto. [00:08:08] Joe Jesuele: So we’re looking at growing in that area. [00:08:11] Dan Smigrod: Okay, great. Let’s jump into the topic, How ... WGAN-TV Short Story #2439 [00:08:16] Dan Smigrod: Photographers and Real Estate Agents can Resist [00:08:19] Dan Smigrod: Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate. [00:08:23] Dan Smigrod: Joe, what’s your beef with Zillow? [00:08:30] Joe Jesuele: I’m not a big fan of big tech in Silicon Valley, that’s number one.

Joe Jesuele

Founder and Owner, HomeJab

[00:08:35] Joe Jesuele: I don’t think they’re evil people, [00:08:37] Joe Jesuele: but at the same time, [00:08:38] Joe Jesuele: they’re not necessarily the friends of real estate agents. [00:08:41] Joe Jesuele: As a real estate photography company our customers are real estate agents. [00:08:46] Joe Jesuele: We’re interested in what’s good for the independent real estate agent. [00:08:51] Joe Jesuele: What we see is Zillow tech trying to monopolize real estate search. [00:08:56] Joe Jesuele: They’re doing that not only by just advertising and SEO,

Page 10 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:09:00] Joe Jesuele: but also with patents. [00:09:02] Joe Jesuele: Which personally I think it’s unethical. [00:09:05] Joe Jesuele: What they are doing with the patent strategy, [00:09:07] Joe Jesuele: but also with the new iBuyer system. [00:09:12] Joe Jesuele: I have nothing against expanding your business. [00:09:16] Joe Jesuele: They are a public companies so certainly to have to look at how do we expand, [00:09:19] Joe Jesuele: how do we get bigger, I totally get that. [00:09:22] Joe Jesuele: But they are competing directly now with [00:09:25] Joe Jesuele: real estate agents going after consumers with the iBuyer model. [00:09:31] Joe Jesuele: As a real estate agent, [00:09:32] Joe Jesuele: why would you help them do that? [00:09:37] Joe Jesuele: What I mean by that is, [00:09:39] Joe Jesuele: why would you use their tools and provide free content to them? [00:09:45] Joe Jesuele: Virtual tours, videos, why just hand that [00:09:49] Joe Jesuele: over to Zillow and let them use that content to monetize their site, [00:09:55] Joe Jesuele: sale advertising, sale leads? [00:09:57] Joe Jesuele: Doesn’t really make sense. [00:09:59] Joe Jesuele: As a photography company,

Page 11 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:10:00] Joe Jesuele: we don’t want to support that because it’s not in the best interests of our customers: [00:10:06] Joe Jesuele: the real estate agents. [00:10:08] Joe Jesuele: That’s really the main problem. [00:10:10] Dan Smigrod: But that said Joe, [00:10:11] Dan Smigrod: the real estate agent, I would imagine, [00:10:13] Dan Smigrod: has a fiduciary responsibility as a professional to their clients – and as a [00:10:20] Dan Smigrod: member of the We Get Around Network Forum community pointed out – [00:10:24] Dan Smigrod: @Dataventurer (Dave Villa): [00:10:29] Dan Smigrod: Zillow and Trulia account for 39 percent of [00:10:32] Dan Smigrod: real estate related website traffic worldwide.

Joe Jesuele

Founder and Owner, HomeJab

[00:10:37] Dan Smigrod: Isn’t it a fiduciary responsibility of a real estate agent [00:10:42] Dan Smigrod: to post a house for sale where 39 percent of the market’s looking? [00:10:49] Joe Jesuele: No question. I mean, you got to have the listing on Zillow [00:10:52] Joe Jesuele: and I’m not saying don’t list the property and Zillow put the photos there. [00:10:56] Joe Jesuele: MLS data, yes. [00:10:58] Joe Jesuele: But when it comes to enhanced media like virtual tours, videos, [00:11:03] Joe Jesuele: when someone goes to Zillow and they look through [00:11:06] Joe Jesuele: that photos and they’re interested in a house, Page 12 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:11:11] Joe Jesuele: the next step is then to look at the virtual tour and the video. [00:11:13] Joe Jesuele: At that point we tell our customers, the agents, [00:11:17] Joe Jesuele: don’t upload the video directly to Zillow, [00:11:20] Joe Jesuele: don’t use the Zillow 3D Home app that they’re giving you. [00:11:24] Joe Jesuele: Rather post the files yourself or use [00:11:27] Joe Jesuele: the property pages that [HomeJab] provides to you for free and post those links [00:11:31] Joe Jesuele: as a virtual tour on the MLS branded with [00:11:35] Joe Jesuele: the listing agents information so that if someone is looking for the virtual tour, [00:11:39] Joe Jesuele: they’ll scroll down, they’ll look for it, [00:11:41] Joe Jesuele: and then they’ll click the link to go back to the listing agent’s website so that they [00:11:46] Joe Jesuele: can then control that lead and facilitate the transaction. [00:11:53] Joe Jesuele: That’s really what we’re saying. [00:11:55] Joe Jesuele: Certainly we’re not saying don’t list on Zillow, [00:11:58] Joe Jesuele: which if you list on the MLS, [00:11:59] Joe Jesuele: it’s going to be on Zillow. That’s not what we’re saying. [00:12:03] Joe Jesuele: It’s really about putting the 3D tour, the video tour. [00:12:09] Joe Jesuele: What a really interested buyer is going to be looking [00:12:11] Joe Jesuele: at before they make the decision to contact the agent and go visit the house, Page 13 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:12:16] Joe Jesuele: that media: make sure that you’re controlling it on your site, [00:12:19] Joe Jesuele: on your domain or on the photographer’s domain in partnership with the agent. [00:12:25] Joe Jesuele: That’s really the concept. [00:12:26] Joe Jesuele: It’s not, don’t list on Zillow, [00:12:29] Joe Jesuele: that would be foolish. [00:12:30] Dan Smigrod: Okay. Forgive me. ... WGAN-TV Short Story #2440 [00:12:33] Dan Smigrod: On not having Zillow host video or virtual tours, Why not? [00:12:39] Dan Smigrod: What’s the problem with that? [00:12:41] Dan Smigrod: Particularly from a photographer’s perspective,

Joe Jesuele

Founder and Owner, HomeJab

[00:12:44] Dan Smigrod: why should I not use Zillow 3D Home, [00:12:48] Dan Smigrod: for example, to create a virtual tour? [00:12:52] Joe Jesuele: If you do, the virtual tour is going to be on Zillow. [00:12:55] Joe Jesuele: A buyer going to Zillow can basically stay there, [00:12:58] Joe Jesuele: see the tour and then contact whoever they advertise as the buyer’s agent. [00:13:04] Joe Jesuele: That gives quite a bit of control to Zillow. [00:13:09] Joe Jesuele: As a real estate photographer who’s working for real agent, we’re saying, [00:13:14] Joe Jesuele: keep that off Zillow – on your own website – so that Page 14 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:13:18] Joe Jesuele: if someone is searching for that property and they’re really interested, [00:13:22] Joe Jesuele: they’ll find the tour and the video on [00:13:25] Joe Jesuele: the agent’s website or on the photographer’s websites. [00:13:27] Joe Jesuele: Then that lead can be nurtured from there as opposed to funnel through on Zillow’s site. [00:13:35] Dan Smigrod: Zillow does offer iFrame embed code that’s white-labeled. [00:13:42] Dan Smigrod: As either a real estate agent or a photographer using Zillow 3D Home, [00:13:48] Dan Smigrod: you can publish to Zillow and then [00:13:52] Dan Smigrod: get embed code to put it on the photographer’s website, [00:13:57] Dan Smigrod: the real estate agent’s website or elsewhere. [00:14:01] Dan Smigrod: Is there any reason not to do that? [00:14:05] Dan Smigrod: I’m trying to understand from your perspective, [00:14:08] Dan Smigrod: what is the challenge for example, [00:14:10] Dan Smigrod: of using Zillow 3D Home? [00:14:12] Dan Smigrod: I might just digress for a moment and say, [00:14:16] Dan Smigrod: I really think it’s a 360 tour, [00:14:17] Dan Smigrod: but it is actually called Zillow 3D Home. [00:14:22] Dan Smigrod: What’s the problem with using their app to create content? [00:14:27] Joe Jesuele: Content is king and controlling the data is important. Page 15 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:14:30] Joe Jesuele: I think data is maybe the most important thing [00:14:33] Joe Jesuele: besides just a good real estate agent and the advice that you get from a good agent, [00:14:37] Joe Jesuele: maybe number two is the content and the data. [00:14:41] Joe Jesuele: Why not own that? Why not control that? [00:14:44] Joe Jesuele: I think that puts the agent in a very powerful position and the real estate photographer. [00:14:49] Joe Jesuele: If you’re a real estate photographer, [00:14:50] Joe Jesuele: why would you not want to hold on to that data, [00:14:53] Joe Jesuele: share it with your customer, [00:14:55] Joe Jesuele: and funnel leads to your customer because they make money,

Joe Jesuele

Founder and Owner, HomeJab

[00:14:58] Joe Jesuele: they’re going to hire you more. [00:15:00] Joe Jesuele: That’s where the money is going to be. [00:15:01] Joe Jesuele: If you’re basically handing over data to Silicon Valley, [00:15:05] Joe Jesuele: Big tech, Zillow and others, then it’s theirs. [00:15:11] Joe Jesuele: It sits on their servers and they can do whatever they want with it. [00:15:14] Joe Jesuele: Now, I’m not saying they’re evil people and maybe like Google, [00:15:18] Joe Jesuele: they go around saying don’t be evil and maybe that’s fine. [00:15:23] Dan Smigrod: Let’s back up for a moment, Joe, if we may.

Page 16 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

... WGAN-TV Short Story #2441 [00:15:26] Dan Smigrod: Let’s back up for a moment to photos. [00:15:28] Dan Smigrod: When HomeJab gives images to its real estate clients, [00:15:38] Dan Smigrod: does the agent own those photos? [00:15:40] Dan Smigrod: Does HomeJab own those photos? [00:15:42] Dan Smigrod: Does the photographer who shot those photos own the photos? [00:15:46] Dan Smigrod: Does Zillow now own the photos because they’ve been uploaded to Zillow? [00:15:52] Joe Jesuele: There’s lawyers that talked about that. [00:15:54] Joe Jesuele: There’s a case about that, [00:15:56] Joe Jesuele: that I’m sure you know about that with VHT and Zillow. [00:15:59] Joe Jesuele: I’m not a lawyer and I’m not going to talk about legal stuff like that. [00:16:04] Joe Jesuele: I think in the court system that question has been answered. [00:16:09] Joe Jesuele: From my standpoint, [00:16:10] Joe Jesuele: if we’re shooting homes, [00:16:14] Joe Jesuele: then it’s the person who bought the photos just to do whatever they want with it. [00:16:21] Joe Jesuele: But even more important than that, [00:16:24] Joe Jesuele: it’s the homeowner really because when they buy the house, [00:16:28] Joe Jesuele: and this happens weekly, I mean, Page 17 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:16:29] Joe Jesuele: people will contact us and say, “Hey, that’s my house. [00:16:31] Joe Jesuele: I just bought it, can you take that down?” [00:16:34] Joe Jesuele: As the owner of HomeJab, I don’t say, [00:16:37] Joe Jesuele: “No, it’s my photo I’ll keep it up.” [00:16:39] Joe Jesuele: I’ll say, “Of course, I’m not going to keep up a photo of [00:16:41] Joe Jesuele: your living room and your bathroom on my website.” I’ll take it down. [00:16:47] Joe Jesuele: It’s really the homeowner that ultimately I think just due to privacy reasons, [00:16:51] Joe Jesuele: not legal, I’m not talking about legal stuff, [00:16:53] Joe Jesuele: but privacy and ethics controls that.

Joe Jesuele

Founder and Owner, HomeJab

[00:16:58] Joe Jesuele: But if you want to talk about just the photographer being in a really strong position. [00:17:06] Joe Jesuele: That’s another reason not to just hand over more and more data and [00:17:09] Joe Jesuele: more files to Zillow because it should be [00:17:12] Joe Jesuele: the photography company that controls that [00:17:15] Joe Jesuele: and gives the agent the right to use it for that listing. [00:17:21] Joe Jesuele: That’s another reason not to hand things over to Zillow is because you really [00:17:24] Joe Jesuele: want to keep the source files controlled by the photographer and your customer,

Page 18 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:17:28] Joe Jesuele: the real estate agent, and not hand that to a third party. [00:17:32] Joe Jesuele: That’s my personal view. [00:17:33] Dan Smigrod: Okay. Surprise. I’m not a lawyer either [00:17:37] Dan Smigrod: and I don’t give legal advice and a lot of this topic is way over my head. [00:17:42] Dan Smigrod: But I’m still trying to understand the nuances here, excuse me. [00:17:49] Dan Smigrod: Even as a photographer, [00:17:51] Dan Smigrod: am I selling or licensing my content to the real estate agent? [00:17:55] Dan Smigrod: Even if I’m licensing my content to the real estate agent for [00:17:59] Dan Smigrod: the sole use of selling that particular house [00:18:04] Dan Smigrod: and my transaction ends at the point that they’ve sold [00:18:08] Dan Smigrod: the house or they are no longer marketing that house. [00:18:13] Dan Smigrod: But they’ve uploaded the images to Zillow, [00:18:18] Dan Smigrod: does it really matter that I own the copyright, [00:18:21] Dan Smigrod: but Zillow already has the actual physical possession of the content, [00:18:27] Dan Smigrod: and therefore, I can’t get it back, [00:18:30] Dan Smigrod: I can’t take it down? [00:18:32] Dan Smigrod: Are you able to take down your images for HomeJab that have been [00:18:36] Dan Smigrod: uploaded to Zillow or do you have to go back to

Page 19 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:18:39] Dan Smigrod: the real estate agent and ask them to take it down? [00:18:43] Joe Jesuele: I’ve never tried, and that’s why I’m not even talking about photos. [00:18:47] Joe Jesuele: I’m talking more about the enhanced media: video [00:18:51] Joe Jesuele: and virtual tours that the real stuff that I think serious buyers are going after, [00:18:56] Joe Jesuele: especially in today’s market, [00:18:57] Joe Jesuele: photos, yeah, I mean, [00:18:58] Joe Jesuele: I think there’s other solutions for photography that includes [00:19:03] Joe Jesuele: the blockchain and NFTs or maybe that’s another phone call or meeting here, [00:19:07] Joe Jesuele: but I don’t want to get into that. [00:19:09] Joe Jesuele: But I think that’s where that is going. [00:19:12] Joe Jesuele: But in terms of photos on Zillow,

Joe Jesuele

Founder and Owner, HomeJab

[00:19:15] Joe Jesuele: I don’t think there’s anything we can do about that. [00:19:18] Dan Smigrod: Then we’ll pause on that one because that’s a topic [00:19:21] Dan Smigrod: that sounds like neither of us can have an impact on. [00:19:24] Dan Smigrod: But on virtual tours, [00:19:26] Dan Smigrod: I think what I’m hearing is that you really do want agents [00:19:30] Dan Smigrod: and photographers to use a third-party platform other than [00:19:34] Dan Smigrod: Zillow where the photographer or agent actually controls the content and Page 20 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:19:39] Dan Smigrod: then can actually take the content down at [00:19:42] Dan Smigrod: some point when the house is no longer for sale. [00:19:46] Dan Smigrod: Did I summarize that okay? [00:19:48] Joe Jesuele: Exactly. Or at least not be paying a third-party company [00:19:52] Joe Jesuele: to host those files and keep them active, [00:19:56] Joe Jesuele: and use that content for your own marketing purposes. [00:20:00] Joe Jesuele: You might as well own the files, host them yourself, [00:20:03] Joe Jesuele: and not be paying someone else to host the files. [00:20:08] Joe Jesuele: At the very least just from a financial perspective not do that. [00:20:13] Joe Jesuele: But yeah, it’s exactly right. ... WGAN-TV Short Story #2442 [00:20:14] Joe Jesuele: That’s my view on it. [00:20:18] Dan Smigrod: If you’re using a third-party platform, [00:20:21] Dan Smigrod: I guess it really depends on the platform about whether you’re paying [00:20:27] Dan Smigrod: recurring charge for hosting or whether you’ve done a buyout of the tour for hosting, [00:20:34] Dan Smigrod: perhaps, in perpetuity, [00:20:36] Dan Smigrod: or whether you host it yourself. [00:20:44] Dan Smigrod: I reprinted, with your permission, Page 21 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:20:46] Dan Smigrod: your HomeJab blog post in the We Get Around Network Forum, [00:20:51] Dan Smigrod: and we didn’t really get a lot of pushback from photographers. [00:20:55] Dan Smigrod: They seem to be perfectly fine using Zillow 3D Home. [00:21:02] Dan Smigrod: It’s a free tool. [00:21:05] Dan Smigrod: I really want to give you an opportunity to keep [00:21:07] Dan Smigrod: pushing back on that about why photographers should be [00:21:10] Dan Smigrod: upset that Zillow now has this content rather than the photographer [00:21:15] Dan Smigrod: using a different platform where they’re in control of the hosting and can turn it off.

Joe Jesuele

Founder and Owner, HomeJab

[00:21:23] Joe Jesuele: Well, I don’t think they should be upset. [00:21:24] Joe Jesuele: I don’t think it’s smart business. [00:21:27] Joe Jesuele: I think that if you’re a photographer, [00:21:30] Joe Jesuele: you’re in the business of not only producing the data, [00:21:34] Joe Jesuele: but controlling it and distributing it where you think it should go. [00:21:40] Joe Jesuele: If you hand it over, [00:21:42] Joe Jesuele: then there’s really no way to monetize that in the future. [00:21:47] Joe Jesuele: Also, you have to think about your customer who’s paying you, [00:21:51] Joe Jesuele: the real estate professional.

Page 22 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:21:54] Joe Jesuele: You’re basically using the tools of your customer’s competitor. [00:22:01] Joe Jesuele: Now, it might not be the end of the world, [00:22:03] Joe Jesuele: but again, I don’t think it’s the smartest business strategy. [00:22:06] Joe Jesuele: I think if there’s other options you should look at that and [00:22:10] Joe Jesuele: consider solutions that give you more control over the source files, [00:22:16] Joe Jesuele: more control over the hosting, [00:22:19] Joe Jesuele: and provide your customer a solution that doesn’t involve their number one competitor. [00:22:29] Dan Smigrod: Okay. Fair enough. ... WGAN-TV Short Story #2443 [00:22:32] Dan Smigrod: Does the Zillow presently provide [00:22:38] Dan Smigrod: additional promotion for a listing if it includes the Zillow 3D Home tour versus...? [00:22:45] Joe Jesuele: Yeah. I’m sure they do. In a seller’s market, [00:22:48] Joe Jesuele: that’s not really a big deal. [00:22:49] Joe Jesuele: I think people would look for listings and find [00:22:51] Joe Jesuele: them whether they’re highlighted on Zillow or not. [00:22:53] Joe Jesuele: I guess we can argue that how valuable that is, [00:22:59] Joe Jesuele: but at the very least in today’s market, it’s not very valuable. [00:23:05] Dan Smigrod: Okay. In your post you talked about blockchain.

Page 23 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:23:10] Dan Smigrod: Could you expand on that and how that might fit into our conversation today? [00:23:17] Joe Jesuele: Well, there is a lot of discussion about who owns the files and that’s a major topic. [00:23:25] Joe Jesuele: I think the legal experts have said that technically, [00:23:28] Joe Jesuele: it’s the photographer that owns the files, [00:23:31] Joe Jesuele: and I think the other question is how do [00:23:35] Joe Jesuele: photographers monetize that because it’s very difficult in [00:23:40] Joe Jesuele: today’s world where you can take a snapshot or a screenshot rather of [00:23:45] Joe Jesuele: a JPEG and then use that image with blockchain and you can track it. [00:23:51] Joe Jesuele: If there’s an image that a photographer has that is valuable

Joe Jesuele

Founder and Owner, HomeJab

[00:23:56] Joe Jesuele: such as a nice shot of a city, neighborhood, landmark, [00:24:02] Joe Jesuele: historical building, something that can be used in marketing and listing, [00:24:09] Joe Jesuele: creating an NFT from that and then selling that NFT on an NFT marketplace. [00:24:17] Dan Smigrod: Non-Fungible Token, NFT. Okay? [00:24:20] Joe Jesuele: Right. I think that at least from [00:24:23] Joe Jesuele: a technical standpoint puts a lot of power back in the hands of [00:24:28] Joe Jesuele: the photographer because you can control or at least track selling that asset, [00:24:36] Joe Jesuele: and then if that NFT gets resold the photographer can make Page 24 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:24:42] Joe Jesuele: recurring revenue on that at royalties that they [00:24:44] Joe Jesuele: define in the smart contracts of the blockchain. [00:24:49] Joe Jesuele: I don’t know if you want to get super-technical about that? [00:24:51] Dan Smigrod: Well, I think this is important in part [00:24:53] Dan Smigrod: because my impression is that’s the direction that HomeJab is going. [00:24:59] Dan Smigrod: I’m interested to hear what your plans are. [00:25:01] Joe Jesuele: I’m sorry to cut you off, [00:25:04] Joe Jesuele: but it is certainly a very interesting topic and I think the technology [00:25:09] Joe Jesuele: presents a very good solution for the problem that exists for the photographer, [00:25:15] Joe Jesuele: which is once you shoot a photograph and you put it online, [00:25:21] Joe Jesuele: how do you control that, how do you monetize that? [00:25:26] Joe Jesuele: It’s in very early stages, [00:25:29] Joe Jesuele: but NFTs and the blockchain do solve that problem very elegantly. [00:25:36] Joe Jesuele: It is something that we’re exploring right now. [00:25:38] Joe Jesuele: We are building an app that photographers can [00:25:42] Joe Jesuele: use for free to create NFTs of their photographs. [00:25:52] Joe Jesuele: Of course, we’re even starting to identify or recognize NFTs as a legal ownership. [00:25:59] Joe Jesuele: But once this happens, Page 25 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:26:01] Joe Jesuele: I think it helps to solve that problem. [00:26:05] Joe Jesuele: If you’re not the owner of that NFT, [00:26:07] Joe Jesuele: then you can’t use the photograph, [00:26:08] Joe Jesuele: and if you are the owner, [00:26:09] Joe Jesuele: then you have the legal recourse if someone steals that photograph, [00:26:16] Joe Jesuele: and if you’re the creator of the NFT, [00:26:18] Joe Jesuele: you get paid on the sale and then every other sale that happens from that point forward. [00:26:24] Joe Jesuele: That’s a really nice way to make recurring revenue if you’re a photographer. ... WGAN-TV Short Story #2444 [00:26:28] Dan Smigrod: Yeah. I’d like to add a parenthetical thought right here. [00:26:32] Dan Smigrod: It’s relevant, I believe, to our community, [00:26:34] Dan Smigrod: particularly since it’s somewhat Matterport centric, [00:26:38] Dan Smigrod: is a member of our community did create an NFT of [00:26:42] Dan Smigrod: a Matterport tour and wrote about it on the We Get [00:26:45] Dan Smigrod: Around Network Forum and it sold for $340,000. [00:26:51] Dan Smigrod: We’re not making stuff up about this NFT stuff. [00:26:55] Dan Smigrod: It’s real. It’s coming. Page 26 of 44

Joe Jesuele

Founder and Owner, HomeJab

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:26:57] Dan Smigrod: You can certainly search the We Get Around Network Forum for [00:27:01] Dan Smigrod: NFT and read more about Matterport meets NFT, [00:27:08] Dan Smigrod: and engage with the Matterport Service Provider that posted that article to the Forum. [00:27:19] Dan Smigrod: Does your app create [00:27:21] Dan Smigrod: blockchain unique numbers now for your photos or is that something that’s coming? [00:27:29] Joe Jesuele: Probably Q4 this year. It will it do that. [00:27:33] Joe Jesuele: Yeah. Basically, you have to upload the source file and then put in not only the price, [00:27:41] Joe Jesuele: but how many copies you want to sell and what the royalty is. [00:27:46] Joe Jesuele: Then we also ask for verification for the actual raw image so that we can verify [00:27:51] Joe Jesuele: that it was a photographer that took the image and [00:27:54] Joe Jesuele: wasn’t someone stole a JPEG and now he’s creating NFT for it. [00:27:58] Joe Jesuele: There is a verification process that has to happen. [00:28:02] Joe Jesuele: But then once the NFT is created from that point [00:28:05] Joe Jesuele: forward it’d be tracked automatically on a blockchain, [00:28:09] Joe Jesuele: which is basically just a network of many, [00:28:12] Joe Jesuele: many computers and completely immutable and you can’t hack into it, [00:28:17] Joe Jesuele: hopefully, at least that’s what we think. [00:28:22] Joe Jesuele: I think it’s a really nice way to track ownership of a digital asset. Page 27 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:28:30] Dan Smigrod: Will that be within the existing HomeJab app or is this [00:28:34] Dan Smigrod: a separate standalone app for tagging NFT registration? [00:28:42] Joe Jesuele: It’ll be separate in the sense that any photographer can use it. [00:28:47] Joe Jesuele: You don’t have to be associated with HomeJab, [00:28:50] Joe Jesuele: you don’t have to work for us. [00:28:52] Joe Jesuele: Anyone can use it. It’s really a tool for photographers to create NFTs and then sell them [00:28:59] Joe Jesuele: on a marketplace where there’s [00:29:01] Joe Jesuele: only real estate photos so that there’s a market for it because you can create NFT,

Joe Jesuele

Founder and Owner, HomeJab

[00:29:05] Joe Jesuele: but then you have to sell it somewhere. [00:29:07] Joe Jesuele: There’s a lot of good marketplaces right now, [00:29:11] Joe Jesuele: OpenSea being one of the big ones. [00:29:16] Joe Jesuele: You can do this right now, [00:29:18] Joe Jesuele: but we’re building a marketplace just for [00:29:21] Joe Jesuele: real estate photos and I think that can have a significant value. [00:29:25] Dan Smigrod: Cool. ... WGAN-TV Short Story #2445 [00:29:33] Dan Smigrod: Since you do engage photographers in all 50 states, [00:29:39] Dan Smigrod: you’re obviously very busy with content creation in this real estate space. Page 28 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:29:45] Dan Smigrod: Have you given some thought to what the use cases might be [00:29:49] Dan Smigrod: for virtual tours in particular after a house sells? [00:29:57] Joe Jesuele: After a house sells, [00:30:00] Joe Jesuele: one of the ways that you can obviously [00:30:03] Joe Jesuele: present that tour and just as a showcase of your work, [00:30:08] Joe Jesuele: but the real estate agent can do the same. [00:30:12] Joe Jesuele: It has high-quality content, [00:30:14] Joe Jesuele: so if you’re creating proper pages with SEO associated with it, [00:30:22] Joe Jesuele: it’s going to drive more traffic to your site. [00:30:24] Joe Jesuele: I think there’s certainly value and having that associated with the photographer, [00:30:32] Joe Jesuele: and then linking to the real estate agent; your customer. [00:30:37] Joe Jesuele: But again someone’s house that they just bought, [00:30:41] Joe Jesuele: in many cases they would ask to take that down. [00:30:46] Joe Jesuele: Again, if someone does ask that, then we do that. [00:30:50] Joe Jesuele: It’s their personal residence. [00:30:54] Joe Jesuele: Again with regarding the NFT marketplace, [00:30:57] Joe Jesuele: I just want to be clear about that. [00:30:58] Joe Jesuele: What we’re talking about there is, Page 29 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:31:00] Joe Jesuele: are images in more of the public realm: the parks, [00:31:04] Joe Jesuele: and commercial areas, [00:31:07] Joe Jesuele: and cities, or landmarks, things like that. [00:31:11] Joe Jesuele: Not people’s houses, [00:31:12] Joe Jesuele: and we’re not selling as NFTs. [00:31:15] Joe Jesuele: I don’t think that’s appropriate. [00:31:17] Joe Jesuele: I’m talking more about the stock images that you’d get of [00:31:20] Joe Jesuele: a nice skyline or a neighborhood and something like that.

Joe Jesuele

Founder and Owner, HomeJab

[00:31:27] Dan Smigrod: Thanks for that clarification. ... WGAN-TV Short Story #2446 [00:31:28] Dan Smigrod: Do you think there’s at some point that NFT meets Zillow, [00:31:33] Dan Smigrod: and therefore it will eventually be possible to say and control that... [00:31:39] Dan Smigrod: that content is owned by and that content needs to come down? [00:31:47] Joe Jesuele: Potentially yeah. If you wanted to come down from [00:31:51] Joe Jesuele: Zillow having digital proof that you are the owner of it, [00:31:58] Joe Jesuele: certainly that would be one way to go. [00:32:01] Joe Jesuele: If you’re a photographer, you’re doing a lot shoots.

Page 30 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:32:03] Joe Jesuele: I don’t know how realistic it is to do that consistently having an ongoing effort, [00:32:08] Joe Jesuele: you reach out to them about that. [00:32:15] Joe Jesuele: I think having that digital footprint and being [00:32:19] Joe Jesuele: verifiable on the blockchain publicly is a tool for the photographer in many respects. [00:32:27] Joe Jesuele: Zillow aside I think that it has a much broader market, [00:32:32] Joe Jesuele: and it creates a lot of opportunities for photographers to sell [00:32:36] Joe Jesuele: it and make money and have a recurring source of revenue. [00:32:43] Joe Jesuele: As it relates to Zillow, [00:32:44] Joe Jesuele: I don’t think that, that’s the business that they’re looking to get into. [00:32:47] Joe Jesuele: I think they’re in the advertising business [00:32:50] Joe Jesuele: and another in the buying and selling houses business. ... WGAN-TV Short Story #2447 [00:32:56] Dan Smigrod: If we come back to what your beef is [00:33:01] Dan Smigrod: with Zillow that results in you saying, [00:33:08] Dan Smigrod: “Hey, on virtual tours, [00:33:11] Dan Smigrod: use a third-party platform so that it’s not native [00:33:14] Dan Smigrod: within Zillow so that they don’t have it in perpetuity,” and “Hey, [00:33:18] Dan Smigrod: video: have it hosted by a different platform such as Vimeo or

Page 31 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:33:23] Dan Smigrod: YouTube so that you can control when that video gets taken down.” [00:33:30] Dan Smigrod: Are there other reasons why photographers should really obsess with this topic [00:33:37] Dan Smigrod: of stop using Zillow 3D Home [00:33:40] Dan Smigrod: and use a different virtual tour platform that’s hosted elsewhere? [00:33:45] Joe Jesuele: I don’t think photographers need to obsess over it. [00:33:48] Joe Jesuele: I’m certainly not obsessed over it. [00:33:52] Joe Jesuele: Again, as a photographer, [00:33:56] Joe Jesuele: you have to think about your customer too.

Joe Jesuele

Founder and Owner, HomeJab

[00:33:58] Joe Jesuele: The real estate agent. A lot of agents are [00:34:00] Joe Jesuele: obsessed over Zillow because they see what’s happening. [00:34:06] Joe Jesuele: So it’s something that you can help [00:34:11] Joe Jesuele: your customer with because they’re looking for solutions outside of Zillow potentially. [00:34:15] Joe Jesuele: There’s a huge market of agents that this thing resonates with, [00:34:20] Joe Jesuele: they don’t want to be handing over data to Zillow if they don’t have to. [00:34:26] Joe Jesuele: It’s more about that, just a good business strategy [00:34:29] Joe Jesuele: as opposed to an obsession about Zillow. [00:34:32] Joe Jesuele: Zillow started out and it was a great solution. [00:34:36] Joe Jesuele: It empowered buyers with access to MLS data that they didn’t have access to before. Page 32 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:34:46] Joe Jesuele: They’ve done a lot of good in the market. [00:34:49] Joe Jesuele: It’s just natural for [00:34:51] Joe Jesuele: a Silicon Valley, venture funded, and now publicly funded company to ... [00:34:56] Joe Jesuele: “Okay, what’s next? How do we expand? [00:34:59] Joe Jesuele: We’re a $6 billion company, [00:35:01] Joe Jesuele: how do we become a $50 billion company?” [00:35:03] Joe Jesuele: In the process of doing that, [00:35:05] Joe Jesuele: a lot of the independent agents, [00:35:08] Joe Jesuele: the customers that photographers like us work with are going to have problems. [00:35:16] Joe Jesuele: That may or may not be inevitable, [00:35:18] Joe Jesuele: but what we’re saying at HomeJab, [00:35:21] Joe Jesuele: and what we’re telling photographers, [00:35:22] Joe Jesuele: and what we’re telling our customers is don’t let that happen. [00:35:28] Joe Jesuele: Do what you can to control your listing content and control the leads. [00:35:34] Joe Jesuele: The way that you do that is by making sure that the videos and the virtual tours, [00:35:40] Joe Jesuele: the content that people want to see when they’re really serious; [00:35:43] Joe Jesuele: not just the photographs but the actual videos and the virtual tours, make sure that, [00:35:48] Joe Jesuele: that’s hosted off Zillow and I think that would be really helpful. Page 33 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:35:55] Dan Smigrod: I guess if I was Zillow, [00:35:57] Dan Smigrod: I would think that it’s actually a brilliant strategy to offer free virtual tours: [00:36:05] Dan Smigrod: Zillow 3D Home because if I can get the photographers to [00:36:10] Dan Smigrod: create the content using my app then I own that content in perpetuity. [00:36:17] Joe Jesuele: Maybe that’s the best way to put it, Dan. [00:36:18] Joe Jesuele: I think you hit the nail on the head. [00:36:21] Joe Jesuele: Nothing is free. ... [00:36:28] Joe Jesuele: Zillow is a media company so what they feed off it is more media, [00:36:32] Joe Jesuele: and they need the content in order to sell the ads and

Joe Jesuele

Founder and Owner, HomeJab

[00:36:38] Joe Jesuele: then get the traffic and then convert [00:36:40] Joe Jesuele: that traffic into more leads that they can convert in their [00:36:44] Joe Jesuele: iBuyer model, but then also sell leads back to the agents. [00:36:51] Joe Jesuele: It’s working for them and that’s great, [00:36:54] Joe Jesuele: but it might not work that great for a lot of our customers that are [00:36:59] Joe Jesuele: the real estate agents out there [00:37:01] Joe Jesuele: that are trying to compete against Zillow and having a tough time. [00:37:07] Joe Jesuele: One thing that they can be doing and one thing we can do to help [00:37:10] Joe Jesuele: them is to shoot these beautiful virtual tours and videos, Page 34 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:37:14] Joe Jesuele: and then help them to market them on their own sites, [00:37:18] Joe Jesuele: on their own property pages, [00:37:19] Joe Jesuele: on their own hosting platforms, [00:37:21] Joe Jesuele: and keep it off of these big tech Silicon Valley platforms and that’s the idea. ... WGAN-TV Short Story #2448 [00:37:33] Dan Smigrod: When you’re blog posts came out – [00:37:37] Dan Smigrod: How Agents and Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Latest Threat to Monopolize Real Estate – [00:37:43] Dan Smigrod: did you get any interesting feedback from real estate agents? [00:37:47] Dan Smigrod: Agents that said, “Joe, thanks so much, [00:37:49] Dan Smigrod: that was really awesome and we appreciate you [00:37:51] Dan Smigrod: being an advocate on behalf of real estate agents.” [00:37:55] Joe Jesuele: Yeah. It was the number one article that we’ve ever had [00:37:59] Joe Jesuele: and it was big on social media and we have a media partner. [00:38:04] Joe Jesuele: www.REtechnology.com that posted it, [00:38:06] Joe Jesuele: and they said it was the number one article that we’ve ever done with them. [00:38:11] Joe Jesuele: Then there’s a lot of agents saying, [00:38:13] Joe Jesuele: “that was an exceptional thing.” [00:38:17] Joe Jesuele: They not only agreed with it, Page 35 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:38:18] Joe Jesuele: but they started to comment on [00:38:22] Joe Jesuele: Facebook and Instagram and saying that some of the same things I’m saying now. [00:38:27] Joe Jesuele: It’s like, “why are we giving up this information?” [00:38:29] Joe Jesuele: “Why are we doing this? We’re feeding the beast” type of comments? [00:38:34] Joe Jesuele: From a real estate photographer’s standpoint, again, [00:38:37] Joe Jesuele: I think it’s helpful because this is the language of the customers. [00:38:41] Joe Jesuele: This is what the real estate agents are talking about.

Joe Jesuele

Founder and Owner, HomeJab

[00:38:43] Joe Jesuele: This is what they’re concerned about. [00:38:47] Joe Jesuele: This is a major issue for them and it involves their livelihood. [00:38:52] Joe Jesuele: As a business person, [00:38:54] Joe Jesuele: as a photographer, [00:38:56] Joe Jesuele: that’s what resonates. [00:39:03] Joe Jesuele: I think it’s, not only is it the truth, [00:39:06] Joe Jesuele: and I think it’s good for the industry, [00:39:09] Joe Jesuele: but it’s also a good business strategy for the photographers to [00:39:12] Joe Jesuele: be doing this and telling their customers that [00:39:16] Joe Jesuele: Lola will help you to present Page 36 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:39:20] Joe Jesuele: this media off Zillow and it’ll help you to help the industry, help your career. [00:39:28] Joe Jesuele: That’s what the chatter is about. [00:39:32] Joe Jesuele: The real estate agents support it. [00:39:34] Joe Jesuele: I think the photographers, [00:39:36] Joe Jesuele: many of them that work for us, [00:39:38] Joe Jesuele: get it because we’ve been talking about this a long time. [00:39:40] Joe Jesuele: Many of the ones that don’t work for us, [00:39:43] Joe Jesuele: I think some disagree. [00:39:45] Joe Jesuele: I think some think that it’s nice to have a free app to use [00:39:48] Joe Jesuele: the tours and they think it’s good quality, which it’s fine. [00:39:51] Joe Jesuele: It’s not bad technically. [00:39:55] Joe Jesuele: I mean, I’m not telling anyone to change anything, [00:39:58] Joe Jesuele: but just consider that it might be helpful for your business, [00:40:03] Joe Jesuele: and this is something that resonates well with real estate agents. [00:40:07] Dan Smigrod: Your clients are real estate agents. [00:40:09] Dan Smigrod: If real estate agent asks you to shoot a Zillow 3D Home tour, will you? [00:40:17] Joe Jesuele: I’ve gotten that request maybe twice. [00:40:21] Joe Jesuele: We have had talks like this with customers and they decided against it.

Page 37 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:40:28] Joe Jesuele: When you talk to them and you show them not only the article, [00:40:31] Joe Jesuele: but you just have a conversation, [00:40:34] Joe Jesuele: they’re like, “Okay. Just use whatever you want to use.” [00:40:38] Joe Jesuele: Like I said, we’re big fans of EyeSpy360. [00:40:40] Joe Jesuele: We enjoy working with them. [00:40:44] Joe Jesuele: They have a good platform. We’ve used Matterport too. [00:40:49] Joe Jesuele: I think that product is great but has its downfalls a little bit, in my view. [00:40:58] Joe Jesuele: I mean, the agents will understand what you’re saying,

Joe Jesuele

Founder and Owner, HomeJab

[00:41:02] Joe Jesuele: and you don’t get a lot of pushback on that one. [00:41:05] Dan Smigrod: Okay. That’s www.EyeSpy360.com [00:41:09] Dan Smigrod: www.Eye360Spy.com ... WGAN-TV Short Story #2449 [00:41:14] Dan Smigrod: Obviously, www.Matterport.com [00:41:17] Dan Smigrod: Let me see if I can tease out just a couple of directions here, [00:41:25] Dan Smigrod: or paths that real estate photographers could take based on what I’m hearing. [00:41:32] Dan Smigrod: The first is that the photographer could listen to their real estate agent client that says, [00:41:37] Dan Smigrod: “I don’t want to use Zillow 3D Home” and now I know why:

Page 38 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:41:43] Dan Smigrod: based on what you’ve described. [00:41:45] Dan Smigrod: Second is photographer could be proactive [00:41:51] Dan Smigrod: and just based on what you’ve described about not having the content owned by Zillow, [00:42:00] Dan Smigrod: but the photographer having the control by hosting [00:42:03] Dan Smigrod: it on a third-party platform or hosting it themselves for that matter. [00:42:12] Dan Smigrod: I guess I’m still in this middle ground where we have a lot of Members of the We Get [00:42:18] Dan Smigrod: Around Network Forum community that like and [00:42:21] Dan Smigrod: use Zillow 3D Home because they like it as a tool; [00:42:24] Dan Smigrod: they like it as a platform. [00:42:27] Dan Smigrod: They have not made any effort to raise this issue with their client: “Hey! [00:42:32] Dan Smigrod: At the end of the day, Zillow is your competitor. It’s the wolf!” [00:42:39] Dan Smigrod: I’ll mix my metaphors here with Little Red Riding Hood or something, [00:42:42] Dan Smigrod: but it really is, that wolf in sheep’s clothing, [00:42:46] Dan Smigrod: so we really should start to move off of this platform. [00:42:53] Dan Smigrod: I think what I’m hearing is, [00:42:55] Dan Smigrod: if a real estate agent asks the photographer to use Zillow 3D Home, [00:43:00] Dan Smigrod: you’d rather than say, “No. [00:43:01] Dan Smigrod: I think you’d rather not,

Page 39 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:43:04] Dan Smigrod: because they really are competing with you at the end of the day, [00:43:06] Dan Smigrod: Let’s use a different virtual tour platform to create the tour.” [00:43:14] Dan Smigrod: Anyway, I’m just struggling with that a little bit because my sense is in [00:43:18] Dan Smigrod: our community there are agents that request Zillow 3D Home. [00:43:22] Dan Smigrod: Our photographers go shoot it and the agent’s happy and the photographer’s happy. [00:43:28] Dan Smigrod: I’m guessing you’re taking that perspective of, [00:43:31] Dan Smigrod: but that’s not a good thing because you’re feeding the beast by giving them

Joe Jesuele

Founder and Owner, HomeJab

[00:43:35] Dan Smigrod: content in perpetuity by shooting it natively within a Zillow app. [00:43:41] Joe Jesuele: It’s not the best thing. It’s not the worst thing either. [00:43:43] Joe Jesuele: I mean, it’s not the worst thing in the world. [00:43:49] Joe Jesuele: If you have customers that are specifically saying, [00:43:55] Joe Jesuele: “Look. I need a Zillow 3D tour, I need it bad. [00:43:58] Joe Jesuele: It’s only thing I want. Please give it to me.” [00:44:02] Joe Jesuele: Fine, give it to them. But I haven’t heard anyone like that. [00:44:05] Joe Jesuele: I don’t know anyone saying that. [00:44:06] Joe Jesuele: I think they say Zillow 3D because it’s something that they know. [00:44:11] Joe Jesuele: But when given an alternative, they’re fine with that too. Page 40 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:44:15] Joe Jesuele: I don’t know the percentage, but maybe half would be totally fine with something else. [00:44:20] Joe Jesuele: Maybe there are significant amount of agents that only want Zillow 3D, [00:44:26] Joe Jesuele: but I haven’t come across any. [00:44:28] Joe Jesuele: We do thousands of shoots a months, [00:44:29] Joe Jesuele: so I just haven’t seen it. [00:44:31] Joe Jesuele: Maybe it exists but I haven’t. [00:44:33] Dan Smigrod: Well, I think based on today’s show, [00:44:35] Dan Smigrod: we’re actually going to see a rather lengthy post, [00:44:37] Dan Smigrod: in the We Ge Around Network Forum by a Member who is [00:44:40] Dan Smigrod: a real estate agent and also a real estate photographer. [00:44:47] Dan Smigrod: He’s in the best position to actually be able to control which platform he’s using and he [00:44:54] Dan Smigrod: uses Zillow 3D Home to shoot his tours for his listings, [00:45:01] Dan Smigrod: as well as other agents in his office. [00:45:04] Dan Smigrod: Let’s see if today’s program has swayed him in any way to say, [00:45:11] Dan Smigrod: “I really need to move off of using Zillow 3D Home [00:45:14] Dan Smigrod: and I need to use a different virtual tour platform.” I’m curious. [00:45:18] Joe Jesuele: Well let’s see. I mean, [00:45:19] Joe Jesuele: this is not the hole that we want to die unnecessarily.

Page 41 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:45:25] Joe Jesuele: To me it’s a significant thing that it would [00:45:27] Joe Jesuele: be a good business strategy to offer some other solutions, [00:45:30] Joe Jesuele: but to use their own. [00:45:32] Joe Jesuele: I mean, It’s people will continue to use Zillow. ... WGAN-TV Short Story #2450 [00:45:39] Joe Jesuele: But there’s many other options. [00:45:42] Dan Smigrod: Awesome. One last question. [00:45:48] Dan Smigrod: What is your last parting thoughts on this topic of: How

Joe Jesuele

Founder and Owner, HomeJab

[00:45:52] Dan Smigrod: Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate? [00:46:00] Joe Jesuele: Well, I would say if there’s anything to remember [00:46:04] Joe Jesuele: is: control your source files. Control the content. [00:46:10] Joe Jesuele: That is very valuable to the photographer. [00:46:14] Joe Jesuele: When you control the content, [00:46:18] Joe Jesuele: that puts you in a really valuable position. [00:46:21] Joe Jesuele: You can offer that to your customer. [00:46:23] Joe Jesuele: Then it’ll put them in a very valuable position. [00:46:25] Joe Jesuele: If you partner with that customer, the real estate agent, [00:46:28] Joe Jesuele: the two of you can do a lot of business together,

Page 42 of 44

WGAN-TV | How Photographers can Resist Zillow’s Threat to Monopolize Real Estate | Thursday, September 2, 2021

[00:46:33] Joe Jesuele: and that’s, I think, a really successful model. [00:46:36] Joe Jesuele: There are many other models and maybe Zillow 3D can fit into one of those, [00:46:39] Joe Jesuele: but that’s what I would say. [00:46:42] Joe Jesuele: Make sure you control the content: control the files, [00:46:44] Joe Jesuele: and that will put you in a good position. And, be on [00:46:48] Joe Jesuele: the lookout for NFT marketplaces in real estate. [00:46:52] Joe Jesuele: Be open to learning about NFTs and blockchain. [00:46:55] Dan Smigrod: Joe, thanks for being on the show today. [00:46:58] Joe Jesuele: Well, thanks very much, Dan. [00:46:59] Dan Smigrod: We’ve been visiting with Joe Jesuele. [00:47:02] Dan Smigrod: Joe is the Founder and Owner of HomeJab based in the Greater Philadelphia area. [00:47:08] Dan Smigrod: Though, employees all over the country, [00:47:12] Dan Smigrod: you can find HomeJab at www.HomeJab.com... www.HomeJab.com [00:47:20] Dan Smigrod: Check out the blog post that we’ve been discussing today. [00:47:24] Dan Smigrod: For Joe in the Greater Philadelphia area, [00:47:27] Dan Smigrod: I’m Dan Smigrod founder of the, [00:47:29] Dan Smigrod: “We Get Around Network” Forum and you’ve been watching WGAN-TV Live at 5.

Page 43 of 44

Watch WGAN-TV WGAN-TV Podcast (Apple Podcasts App)

WGAN-TV Vimeo Channel

WGAN-TV Roku Channel

WGAN-TV YouTube Channel

WGAN-TV Amazon Fire Channel

WGAN-TV Training U

We Get Around Network Forum

WGAN-TV Live at 5 is the companion live stream show for the

We Get Around Network Forum

WGAN connects 3D/360° virtual tour buyers to service providers powered by the most in-Depth, relevant and Up-to-Date content and training for the 3D/360° community.

Join the Discussion www.WeGetAroundNetwork.com