Design // development

Katrina Yin, AIA Yin is a design manager at JDS Development Group in New York, NY. She is a licensed real estate salesperson in the state of New York and a graduate of the Yale School of Architecture. She was involved in the design and execution of 100 Flatbush, an all-electric residential tower, and sales at 168 Plymouth, an adaptive-reuse condominium in Dumbo.

Ed Han Myo Oo Ed Han Myo Oo is a senior associate of design at SHVO in New York, NY, where he manages the Mandarin Oriental Residences Fifth Avenue, 711 Fifth Avenue, 530 Broadway, and 333 South Wabash Avenue in Chicago. He is a graduate of Yale College and the Harvard Graduate School of Design.

Their discussion touches on a variety of topics, including learning how to manage the practice of architecture in real estate development and their experiences transitioning to in-house design management roles.

What does a career in design management look like? How does it differ from your experience in an architecture firm?

Katrina Yin (KY): One common misconception people tend to have about in-house architecture roles is the idea that you no longer get to practice architecture. I would say that the focus of practice shifts heavily towards practice management and project management — evaluating scope gaps and planning towards outside deliverables for project stakeholders — while still staying firmly within the bounds of the architectural discipline. In my experience, I’ve found that in-house designers tend to stay engaged with their projects over much longer timespans. The level of engagement will differ from office to office, but you can plan on being staffed on pre-development and post-occupancy projects, in addition to the normal project phases we’re used to seeing in traditional architecture.

Ed Han Myo Oo (EHMO): The analogy I often use when explaining what I do to peers is that I feel like after joining a consulting firm like McKinsey, BCG, or Bain, and sampling different roles at different companies, I decided to work for one full-time. You bring your expertise in-house with you, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that your company stops hiring other consultants to tackle different goals and issues — you are just in the position now to do something with all the reports and solutions they provide to you. It also doesn’t mean that you stopped consulting for the firm — you consult on a longer time horizon and have to own the suggestions and research you put forth. In that sense, you are not just designing but executing and implementing, as well.

KY: That’s a really fitting example! I agree fully and would even argue that we are more engaged in the act of design than ever before. I’d like to think that we are a complement to our architects and consultants — mediating the gaps between them and communicating the owner’s intent in ways that are constructive to the design process.

What, if anything, surprised you in your transition from architecture to real estate development?

EHMO: Before I transitioned into my current role, I had assumed that there was a prescribed path for real estate development. What came as a surprise to me was actually the variety of specialty backgrounds that are represented in a development firm. Many successful developers and colleagues I admire came from successful careers doing something else — lawyers, architects, brokers, construction managers .

Once I had that realization, I felt a lot more assured about where I was coming from — that I hadn’t missed the opportunity to contribute and translate my skills and interests into development. These firms have to solve complex problems at every level to facilitate a successful project, and design was a specific role I could fully own with the skills I had from being an architect. In fact, in some ways, developers do what I always thought was the work of the architect — to be a conductor in an orchestra of different players and parts to realize a building project. At the end of the day, there’s room in the development cycle to carve out your niche, whether it be design, marketing, sales, construction, or property management.

Above Katrina and Ed on a scouting trip

KY: I suppose, in addition to the point you’ve made about real estate development being complex enough to require people with all professional skill sets, I would also say that something surprising about my transition was the extent to which you can add value even if all you have is just the innate ability of the architect to hold the image of the project in your head. Being able to anticipate land-use challenges, possible design opportunities, giving volume and unit counts for the purposes of very broad-stroke underwriting — long before numbers start firming up into a real project, it has to first live in your head to take seed as a realistic endeavor.

EHMO: Surprisingly, most people at development companies don’t have that ability to imagine. It’s a unique and necessary skill set that we bring to the table.

How has this role changed the way you perceive architecture or real estate development?

KY: Something that I never fully appreciated until I started working client-side was the tremendous diversity in methods of practice that exist in architecture today. When we were in school, we were taught to look at aesthetics, geographical area of practice, scale of projects, etc., when evaluating firms. Once I had the privilege of engaging these firms, it became clear that there’s an even greater diversity of practice that lies in the way each firm approaches (even the most mundane aspects of) their work — an overlay that is rarely talked about in school since we spend so much time heroicizing the napkin-sketch “Eureka!” moment.

EHMO: To that point, it is really only on the ownership side that you get exposure to that diversity of practice. At SHVO, I’ve worked with designers ranging from Peter Marino Architect to Snarkitecture and gotten the privilege to see Foster + Partners’ work on the iconic Transamerica Pyramid Tower in San Francisco, and I think to myself — I would not even be at this meeting or at the decision-making table if I were working for any single one of these design firms, much less be part of all of them.

KY: Getting to see how people at other firms work and cherry-picking their best practices is one of my biggest joys. I say this unironically: I have learned so much about how an office responds to emails and RFIs. How they organize and obsess over certain material samples. What vendor relationships they’ve fostered to create custom details over the years. It’s a real privilege to sit through these design presentations and truly enjoy the diversity of practice that exists today. Project delivery methods, drawing standards probably sound downright tedious to a fresh graduate, but there are some really thoughtful firms out there that deserve much more appreciation from the community for pushing the profession forward in their own ways.

Above Katrina on a pre-closing unit walkthrough

EHMO: Yes, building relationships with designers and vendors is a real perk of our jobs. You and I have gone to several showrooms and toured new developments together, like that time Steven Harris gave us a personal tour of 109 East 79th Street.

KY: Absolutely! I have such a different level of appreciation now for site visits and celebrating each painfully wrought win with our designers. It’s certainly something I took for granted when we were young designers and shielded from the tough realities of construction tolerances and budget woes.

What advice would you give someone who is interested in learning more about a career in development?

EHMO: If you’re interested in architecture and design roles on the client side, it can be difficult to gain exposure to it since it’s still a very niche role. On the other hand, this contributes to a really tight-knit community of people who are ready and willing to reach across the aisle and help you make that same transition. It’s been my personal experience that a lot of senior leadership folk from design backgrounds enjoy teaching and will actively set aside the time to mentor or take a phone call.

KY: Agree — it surprised me to learn how friendly and supportive people are in the world of real estate. We happen to run in the same circles here in New York City, and it can feel like a really tight, insular group from the outside looking in. As you’ve said, Ed, there is no set professional track that you have to follow to get into design management. Long story short: Don’t be afraid of showing up to a coffee chat with “dumb questions.”

KY: Another thing to remember is that the people you are reaching out to have a position that naturally lends itself to show and tell. A programmer or analyst would be hard pressed to show you raw data and source code. Real estate is by comparison a very transparent industry in many ways. There are offering plans available online and Department of Buildings (DOB) permits you can pull up on any old project you pass on the street. If you happen to admire the work of a specific developer in your city, chances are you could find someone from their development team who is more than happy to tour you around and trade war stories. There’s a very small portion of how the cake gets baked that is wholly proprietary, but otherwise you can really learn so much about the larger development landscape just by doing your homework and speaking to a handful of people.

EHMO: Yes! Joining building tours, going to lectures, community board meetings, staying abreast of the news — a lot of this information is all public. Definitely a matter of taking the initiative to read up on research and staying informed.

Having sat on both sides of the table, what are some ways you think the client-architect relationship could be improved?

KY: We’ve all blamed the client for picking the less appealing design option or having to VE a masterfully detailed component out of the project. It’s easy to villainize someone you see as having more agency who is making what seems to be the wrong choices. All the while, your counterpart on the development team is trying to understand how they could ever underwrite all that gorgeous poche space into the drywall budget. It would help if we could all take a step back and let go of easy scapegoats and understand the benefits we can extend to each other in a true partnership.

EHMO: The short answer — developers just need to hire more people like us.

Katrina Yin, AIA

Yin is a design manager at JDS Development Group in New York, NY. She is a licensed real estate salesperson in the state of New York and a graduate of the Yale School of Architecture.

Ed Han Myo Oo

Han Myo Oo is a senior associate of design at SHVO in New York, NY. He is a graduate of Yale College and the Harvard Graduate School of Design.