MC magazine | Round Table Family Law by Academie voor de Rechtspraktijk

magazine JAAR 6 | March 2020 | no.111 | www.avdr.nl

Round Table Family Law At the Honourable Society of Lincoln’s Inn

David David Hodson Hodson OBE OBE Family Family law law solicitor, solicitor, mediator mediator and and arbitrator arbitrator with with The The International International Family Family Law Law Group, Group, aa law law firm firm in in Central Central London, London, England England

Sarah Sarah Higgins Higgins Solicitor Solicitor with with Charles Charles Russell Russel Speechlys Speechlys Carolina Carolina Marin Marin Pedreño Pedreño The The President President of of the the Westminster West-minsterand andHolborn HolbornLaw LawSociety Society Michael Michael Horowitz Horowitz Retired Retired barrister barrister and and judge judge from from UK UK Anne Anne Zonnenberg Zonnenberg Advocaat Advocaat at at Kehrens Kehrens Snoeks Snoeks advocaten advocaten & & Mediators Mediators in in the the Netherlands Netherlands Tim Tim Amos Amos QC QC Barrister Barrister and and mediator mediator in in England England & & Wales Wales Matthew Matthew Thorpe Thorpe Head Head of of International International Family Family Justice Justice for for England England & & Wales Wales

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MAGNA CHARTA MAGAZINE IS EEN UITGAVE VAN: Academie voor de Rechtspraktijk Jaargang 6 Citeerwijze: MagnaCM, 2020-110 REDACTIE: Etienne van Bladel Anna van Ewijk ONTWERP EN REALISATIE: Melanie Hament Eline van Roosmalen

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Etienne van Bladel ISBN: 9789462286375 Behoudens door de auteurswet gestelde uitzonderingen mag niets uit deze uitgave verveelvoudigd of openbaar gemaakt zonder voorafgaande schriftelijke toestemming van de uitgever.

MC magazine - Round Table Family Law

David Hodson OBE

Family law solicitor, mediator and arbitrator with The International Family Law Group, a law firm in Central London, England.

Anne Zonnenberg

Advocaat at Kehrens Snoeks advocaten & Mediators in the Netherlands

Matthew Thorpe

Head of International Family Justice for England & Wales

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Michael Horowitz

Retired barrister and judge from UK

Tim Amos QC

Barrister and mediator in England & Wales

Carolina Marin PedreĂąo

The President of the Westminster and Holborn Law Society.

Sarah Higgins

Solicitor with Charles Russell Speechlys

MC magazine - Round Table Family Law

Round Table Family Law Anne Zonnenberg, a family law lawyer at Kehrens Snoeks in the Netherlands for the past 12 years. She studied psychology and law at university and subsequently became specialised in the field of family law. David Hodson OBE, A family law solicitor, mediator and arbitrator with The International Family Law Group, a law firm in Central London, England. He worked a couple of years in Australia, and is an qualifiedlawyer. He also sits as a part-time family court judge in London. He deals primarily with international family law cases. Carolina Marin Pedreño, a qualified lawyer in Spain, as well as in England. She is specialised in children cases. She is now the President of the Westminster and Holborn Law Society. Matthew Thorpe, is a retired Head of International Family Justice for England & Wales and a consultant in the field of international family law. Tim Amos QC, he is a specialist in the field of international family law. He works as a barrister and mediator in England & Wales and is a member of Lincoln’s Inn. Sarah Higgins, she is a solicitor with Charles Russell Speechlys - a large solicitors firm, with a significant family department. The firm does a lot of international family law work. Michael Horowitz, he practiced law as a barrister since the 1970s. In his career he focussed mainly on children work and divorce cases. In the last ten years of his working life, he was also a judge entirely focussed on family law cases. Since retirement he was also been involved in arbitration and mediation cases at the national level.

Sarah Higgins In England & Wales, a spouse or civil partner (a form of registered partnership) is entitled to claim maintenance upon dissolution. Such a right is, however, not extended to informal cohabitants. In some cases, the spouses cannot agree on the amount of the maintenance payment. For example, a dispute arises as to the amount that needs to be paid or the duration over which it should be paid. Should maintenance be paid for a set number of years, end when the children reach the age of eighteen, or when the recipient begins to receive a pension? Other disputes often centre on the way in which the payment should be made. For example, should the payment be paid in a lump sum, decreased over time, or set as a fixed amount with an additional amount calculated as a percentage of a bonus? Another issue is whether the period for payment can be extended. Over the years, a number of discussions have taken place as to the basis on which maintenance should be paid; in other words why should a person have financially to contribute to their ex-spouse or ex-civil partner? In general, this is broadly in order to meet the recipient’s needs. However, an issue has arisen with regard tocompensation, for example in situations where one spouse is a high-earner and the other spouse has given up a lucrative career. From the perspective of the payer feelings of anger often arise when the maintenance payment needs to be paid, sometimes for a period longer than the marriage itself. Others have referred to the disincentive that arises for the recipient to become financially independent. Yet from the point of view of the recipient, it is all well and good saying that someone should become

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financially independent, but if that recipient is already 58 years old, and has not worked for many years, then the possibility of obtaining new employment is quite small. The English court has the obligation to try to consider a clean break between the spouses, whilst also taking the reality into account. The courts have been less generous in the recent past with regard to maintenance. Other countries are more restrictive than England with regard to maintenance. For instance in Scotland you are not likely to get more than three years. The practice in relation to maintenance in other countries is affected by other factors such as the number of women who are employed, or able to gain employment easily, and whether childcare is affordable. At present, a bill has been drafted to limit maintenance payments in England to five years and there is a big debate as to whether this is fair. Furthermore, there is more general criticism of the English system that the obligation to make an order that is fair, taking into account all of the circumstances and various factors, means that the final order is quite difficult to predict. As a result, it is difficult to provide people with advice as to the likely outcome. As legal aid is also very restricted, this means that more litigants will not have lawyers, which means that it is difficult for them to settle cases if they don’t know what the likely result will be. I recently held a mock interview with a student applying to university and they believed it to be unfair for a spouse to have to pay an ex-spouse maintenance payments at all!

Tim Amos The draft bill also illustrates how topical this issue is in England & Wales right now. There is a huge controversy whether maintenance should be fixed or open-ended, as it currently is. All sorts of questions arise: for example whether it should be short-term, terminated automatically, or whether the recipient should have a high hurdle to pass to receive more maintenance. In general, it would seem that older lawyers tend to favour a more individualbased approach, whereas younger practitioners tend to argue more from the point of view of autonomy and encouraging people to become more independent, especially financially independent. Michael Horowitz What is interesting is that the basic building blocks of the system are more than fifty years old. The fundamentals were created in 1970 and restated in 1973, tweaked a little in 1984, and since then very little has changed in the statutes. Yet, the social changes that have occurred in the meantime are tremendous. Judges have to shift from the principle of ‘reasonable means’ to a ‘fifty-fifty sharing’, whilst applying the same set of rules, with no real help from Parliament. Tim Amos The parallel point to that is that of macroeconomics, as one must also consider the social security system of different systems to gain a complete picture. I would expect that the Dutch social security net will be much more generous than the English one. Sarah Higgins But not the Scottish! Tim Amos That’s true, but in the time period that Michael is referring to, the English social security net has been drastically reduced. The rental market has been hugely reduced and the cost of renting is now much higher. Accordingly, housing is now a big problem, not only for people who are trying to purchase their own property, but also for people wishing to rent. David Hodson There are two different schools of feminist theory on maintenance. The first believes that a woman should never be dependent on a man whatever happens. I suspect incidentally that this is a predominant school in Scandinavia, where they can rely on social welfare instead. The other school of thought is the opposite and says that a woman has sacrificed a lot for the marriage and therefore the husband should pay to “compensate” those sacrifices. The question is therefore very much one of gender roles and demographics. It is very similar to the debate that took place in Scotland when the law was changed there about twenty years ago.

Michael Holowitz At the moment a debate is taking place with regard to the government having changed the state pension age for women. Women complained to court and lost their case. The court said that it was fair that the government had aligned the pension age for men and woman. So, if you are asking for fairness in one area, it can lead to unfairness in another. Anne Zonnenberg The basis for maintenance payments in the Netherlands is found in the common destiny of the marriage. This common destiny is terminated at the moment of divorce but the fact that spouses are to take care (according to the Dutch law) of each other isn’t. The common destiny represents the idea that choices are made during a marriage by both parties, for example that the couple agree that the wife will stay at home and raise the children, whilst the husband works on his career. So spousal maintenance is based on the common choices made during the marriage and the difference of income as a result of those choices. Alternatively, other people believe that we should look at the individually loss of income. Did the marriage cause a lose of income and if that is the case, how much income was lost? In this sense the legal base would be found in terms of compensation. The recent change in spousal maintenance laws in the Netherlands did not, however, change the basis for the payment. I think that this is a missed opportunity. I believe that ultimately the need to reduce the length of the maintenance from twelve years was seen as more important, and so the discussion on the basis for the payment was side-lined.

“The common destiny represents the idea that choices are made during a marriage by both parties” Tim Amos So what is the length of the maintenance payment after the legislative changes? Anne Zonnenberg From the 1st January 2020, it will be half of the duration of the marriage with a maximum of five years. So even when a marriage has lasted twenty years, the maximum will still be five years. Ofcourse there are a couple op exceptions for older spouses or those who have young children to raise. David Hodson What about the wives who have stayed at home to look after the children? Or moved from one country to the other, perhaps left their own home and career, and followed their husband’s carer? After twelve years, the marriage breaks down and they find themselves without an opportunity. I cannot be immediately independent nor should they. Anne Zonnenberg There are three exceptions to the imposition of the five-year limit. Firstly, if the spouses had children during the marriage and youngest child is under the age of twelve.

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Secondly, if the marriage lasted more than fifteen years and the maintenance creditor is due to receive Old Age State Pension within ten years, then the maintenance must be paid until pension age. And the third exception is if the marriage has lasted more than fifteen years and the maintenance creditor is older than fifty years old, then the maintenance will be limited to ten years. Michael Horowitz But let’s not ignore the elephant in the room. The whole discussion up until now has been focussed on married couples, yet more than 50% of couples no longer get married. And although you can claim payments for the children, as soon as the children leave school, there no further payment to the mother, and she may not be able to stay in the house. That is such a stark difference.

“The whole discussion up until now has been focussed on married couples” Anne Zonnenberg This works quite differently in Netherlands. Housing is not dealt with in terms of maintenance. Maintenance only relates to issues of income and how to achieve an equal standard of living. It does not depend on housing nor does it deal with compensation for housing. This is dealt with under the property law rules. Michael Horowitz The principle has been that what was acquired during marriage should be shared. You cannot apply this principle to unmarried couples. David Hodson The Netherlands was also one of the first countries in the Europe to have registered partnerships. England came much later. Anne Zonnenberg Dutch people regard marriage much more as a contract, which makes maintenance and sharing of property possible. If you choose not to do that, then marriage is still possible, but the property needs to be regulated through pre-nuptial contracts. Sarah Higgins So there is a high level of public understanding as to legal rights? Anne Zonnenberg No, that’s not the case. There really is a lots of informing work to do. Although you could say that it is a divorce lawyer’s job to inform, we only see the couples once the trouble has started and the marriage is over. Then it often is too late and the choices made can’t be changed. David Hodson The level of public knowledge has been low for decades. I remember trying to inform people twenty-five years

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ago that there is no such thing as common law marriage. Twenty-five years on, and half of the population still believe this to exist. If they live together, many believe that will get their rights. Anne Zonnenberg I do think that there is more understanding in the Netherlands. Especially when it comes to maintenance. When you are unmarried, there is no right to maintenance. Nevertheless, sharing houses and property is a big problem in the Netherlands, especially when investments were made. Tim Amos Coming back though to Sarah’s point about individual cases. In England, each case is decided individually with a wide possible range of outcomes. This also means that the costs are disproportionately high in maintenance cases. And that is before you get to the question of having two sets of lawyers on each side: solicitor and barrister.

“In England, each case is decided individually with a wide possible range of outcomes.“ Sarah Higgins This is even worse when it comes to variation or modification of the maintenance order. Tim Amos Yes, definitely, these are the worst types of cases in terms of reward and money risks. In this sense, a Canadian system of maintenance according to tables might be more advantageous. There are the “Section twenty-five factors”, listed in our Matrimonial Causes Act, which include needs. Matthew Thorpe It is also important to note the impact of the close collaboration between contact points within Europe, i.e. the central authorities and judicial networks. This collaboration has made it easier to deal with domestic child protection where it is ultimately in the child’s interests to be placed in another Member State. Over the years we have managed to work out ways to tackle the problems, through the Article 15 Brussels II-bis procedure, for example. Unfortunately, I do not see how we are going to maintain the same standards after leaving the EU under the 1996 Hague Child Protection Convention, given the limited funding of the Permanent Bureau of the Hague Conference. Despite their amazing efforts, the service provided is simply non-equivalent to the service provided by the EU. The cost of funding the European Judicial Network (EJN) must be enormous, and the best the Hague Conference can afford is a quinquennial special commission. I think we are going to be highly dependent on existing personal relationships, especially since the EU system of central authorities are often also designated as Hague central

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authorities. The same is also true of direct judicial cooperation. The importance of such collaboration has only gradually been recognised and was originally established without any legal foundation, up until the Brussels II-bis Regulation.

Michael Horowitz What?

Tim Amos I think it is very important for your readership to know that Matthew Thorpe is not only a very influential judge in England & Wales, but is also the architect of the EJN, which as he says has a statutory basis in the Brussels II-bis Regulation. It is really in large part due to his efforts that this network is now up and running. That being said, this network can also be problematic for practitioners. If two judges talk to each other, how are the lawyers and the clients informed of the content of the discussions? How do we know that a proper process will be dealt with? Yet, on the other hand, there are enormous benefits to be had from this system. It is, therefore, truly ironic that the UK is departing from the EU at the same time that the Brussels II-bis (recast) will come into force, which aims at modernising the Brussels II-bis regime, and which the UK has been involved in negotiating.

Tim Amos The court provided a number of reasons, but specifically referred to the effect that Brexit was to have in terms of political instability, and as a result refused the return of the child back to the UK on the basis of Article 13(1)(b) Hague Abduction Convention 1980. Before Brexit, this decision would be returned to the UK and could ultimately be overruled using Articles 11(6)-(8) Brussels II-bis. After Brexit, this will no longer be possible.

“How do we know that a proper process will be dealt with?“

David Hodson Obviously the question is whether the EU will provide us with some sort of bespoke agreement.

David Hodson It is not only the judiciary and lawyers who will be affected, but also the local authorities, as they ultimately have to organise the foster care for children. I know that in areas such as Kent, Norfolk and Suffolk with significant influx especially from Eastern Europe, there are fears that children will no longer be able to be placed abroad, and will thus need care within England & Wales; places that are currently not available. Etienne van Bladel Do you have any ideas how these huge problems will be able to be solved? What will happen after the UK leaves the EU? Tim Amos I think it’s going to be a disaster from a family law point of view. I’m talking about the individual user of family law and not about politics. Brexit will be a disaster. You can look at it in terms of rights that the English based family will lose. We will lose Brussels II-bis, the retained jurisdiction for the moving of children consensually across borders, as well as the extra protections imposed with respect to international child abductions. In the latter field, the requirement for proceedings to be completed in six weeks, as well as the enhanced emphasis for children to be heard will go. The extended jurisdiction granted under Article 10 Brussels II-bis will also disappear. Finally, the overrule procedure covered by Articles 11(6) to 11(8) Brussels II-bis will also go. I have even heard of a Polish case where Brexit was used as a reason to uphold an Article 13(1)(b) refusal to return a child under the 1980 Hague Child Abduction Convention.

Caroline Marin Pedreño Yes, it’s true.

Anne Zonnenberg Can these problems be alleviated? Tim Amos I don’t think so. Once you leave the EU, then the rules don’t apply.

Tim Amos But let’s get back to needs, and financial needs in particular. Related to David’s fairness question, is the issue of needs, as in every case, the question is what is fair in terms of needs. In most cases, there is simply not sufficient money to think about anything other than needs. Michael Horowitz I think needs means reasonable needs and reasonable requirements. A London banker’s wife has reasonable needs, whereas an unemployed carpenter in Newcastle’s wife has reasonable needs too, albeit that the amount of these needs are different.

“I think needs means reasonable needs and reasonable requirements.” Anne Zonnenberg In the Netherlands needs is also a question of reasonable needs, but there is more predictability. Also our social security system in the Netherlands provides for more of a safety net for low incomes families. Even with a low income, people can still lead their lives. Furthermore, women are encouraged to work. Etienne van Bladel Let’s move to another dilemma. David Hodson Within the British Isles we have many international families, not just in terms of numbers, but also in terms of where they

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come from. Probably one of the most international countries in the world, both in terms of other nationals in the UK, as well as our own nationals in other countries. We also have a huge number of really specialist international family lawyers. If you attend a meeting of the IAFL (International Association of Family Lawyers), there are lots of English lawyers present. We have also played a fundamental role in the creation of the judicial networks. But how will all this specialist knowledge be used in the future? How can we continue to ensure that the hurdles between common law and civil law jurisdictions are removed or alleviated to benefit these families? And perhaps each area will need to be dealt with differently, abduction and relocation, divorce and financial matters. The European Union has chosen one particular route, which some agree with and others don’t. One of the best things the EU ever did was create uniform rules for divorce jurisdiction. How can we find a way forward, not just with our European neighbours, but also with the rest of the world? How can we discuss with the world ourideas and which might be of use to other nations?

“The European Union has chosen one particular route, which some agree with and others don’t.” Tim Amos But let me be clear, that this view from David is not from the perspective of an imperialist, not at all, but instead from the perspective of a dialogue that can take place between independent, sovereign nations. In fact, the UK has actually moved a long way towards continental Europe over the course of the last twenty years, and more particular over the last ten. Ten years ago for example, marital contracts were useless in English courts, now the court will say that we ought to take notice of them! The same is obviously also true of the other 27 Member States, in terms of convergence, that they have taken on board elements of English law. And it is, therefore, exactly right for Matthew to point out that after Brexit, divergence of approach will take place. I am more concerned about how Europe will deal with the changing attitudes in the UK, rather than how England will deal with the European approach. Carolina Marin Pedreño One of the massive changes I foresee is in the field of public law. We have many cases where children currently in care will no longer be entitled to live in the UK. Both parents are EU citizens and their children might have not lived in this jurisdiction the required time to be entitled to a settlement visa. Etienne van Bladel Due to the time, we will move to another dilemma. Carolina Marin Pedreño Thank you. I want to bring the issue of a two-tier system to the table. It is quite worrying that the legal system is

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increasingly becoming accessible only to those with financial ability to pay for it. The statistics indicate that two or three family law cases involve one of the parties as a litigant in person, that is without legal representation. The conduct of those proceedings by the Court is significantly delaying the legal system. Prior to 2010, parties could apply for legal aid, which was granted if you had less than circa £733 per month and if your case had meritsNowadays the system is very different. Legal aid is mainly available to victims of domestic violence on the merits. Consequently many people opt for becoming litigant in persons creating the clog in the courts. This delay is provoking the two-tier system as those that can afford it opt for opting for arbitration. You can choose the venue and the arbitrator. As a legal professional who defends the access to justice, this is a worrying trend because it is creating a two-tier system in terms of income-based access to court. Anne Zonnenberg Well, in the Netherlands this works slightly differently, as the threshold for legal aid is slightly higher. Nevertheless, a problem still does arise but has more to do with modification procedures. One party files for a modification of the maintenance order and receives legal aid, and the other needs to defend the claim, but does not receive legal aid. In these cases, imbalance arises. Tim Amos So let’s add a further dimension to Carolina’s case, namely issues of domestic violence. Can you obtain legal aid for a domestic violence case? For example, if I claim that my husband is hitting me, does that provide access to the legal aid system (as it does now in England)? Anne Zonnenberg In the Netherlands, legal aid is solely based on income, rather than being affected by the type of case that needs to be dealt with. David Hodson A few years ago, we tried something different in England with regard to payment of legal costs of the financially weaker party . We introduced a system where one spouse paid for the other’s legal services. The aim was to reach some form of equality. It works in some cases where there is money available, but where there is no money it doesn’t help at all.

“We introduced a system where one spouse paid for one-time legal services.“ Michael Horowitz If you look at the criminal law system, it is even worse. There’s a great book written by a practising criminal barrister explaining how poorly criminal lawyers are paid. They are sometimes asked to plead in Bristol, for example, and will be paid less than

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their train fare from London to Bristol. Secondly, I think that we need to make a distinction in terms of the sorts of cases that are funded. As a taxpayer why I should I have to pay for a dispute about whether Jimmy and Sarah see their dad on Saturday or Sunday? The third thing is that I think alternative resolution is a good thing along the lines of the Council of the Institute of family law arbitrators. Carolina Marin Pedreño I support arbitration, but I think people are choosing it for the wrong reasons. It should not be because obtaining a judicial decision takes too long. Michael Horowitz But when we started with the arbitration project, we were told that international matters should not be dealt with. David Hodson I think they should be. Carolina Marin Pedreño I also think that there are others areas where the court system takes too long, such as domestic violence protection and urgent relocation. Anne Zonnenberg In the Netherlands we apply the rule that the one who loses the cases has to pay for the legalcosts of the winning party. However we don’t apply this rule in family law cases, which I think we should do so. Or at least more often. The problem is that in family law cases, if the court says that there is no abuse, there is nothing to prevent someone from just bringing on another case.

“In the Netherlands we apply the rule that the one who loses the cases has to pay for the costs of the winning party.“ Tim Amos We have that rule too, but not in family law cases. I sometimes think that it would make sense to say that the person who has legal aid may have to pay for the other party. Etienne van Bladel Let’s now move to Michael’s dilemma. Michael Horowitz I had to think about a dilemma that I wanted to talk about, and at the moment I truly think that there is a fundamental question about whether the courts should intervene in cases of radicalisation. It is something that has developed over the time that I have been a practising judge. In this area, I disagree with David; I think that autonomy should not have the upper hand. Family law has a paternalistic function, albeit in a gender-neutral sense. The state is the protector of the weaker party. Furthermore, the court applies the general standard of protecting children from

harm. Yet in the English system the investigation into the facts is an expensive task, which can take weeks. In continental systems, the decisions are taken much more on the basis of the documentary paper evidence. Michael Horowitz I remember having conversations with a colleague of mine, Nicolas Wall, who exchanged with a French judge. He described situations in which the mother, father and the representative of the child attended the hearing, and the whole proceedings were finished in half a day. In England that is unthinkable. In England, the judge sits and listens and this can take weeks, but that is what we do. The State, in all of its forms, has to uphold fundamental values of democracy, rule of law, liberty, mutual respect etc. At the same time, there is a tendency in some areas of society to counter these values, and it is the duty of the State to stop that. In a recent case, a judge rejected a claim for introducing prevention strategies for radicalisation. Are courts able to prevent people from running off to Syria? In my opinion there are two bases for such decisions. Firstly, the old paternalist royal prerogative of wardship jurisdiction and secondly the rules laid down in the Children Act 1989. Former Justice, James Munby has said that such cases should go to a higher judge, i.e. a judge of the high court, instead of the county court. Another associated dilemma is how to obtain evidence without infringing privacy rights. Some judges say that they don’t listen to the public debate on the topic, others say that they do and welcome outside help. A few years ago we were faced with the problems of young men and women wanting to go fight with ISIS, but now that ISIS has collapsed we are faced with the problem of the families that are returning.

“Some judges say that they don’t listen to the public debate on the topic, others say that they do and welcome outside help.” I was talking with a practitioner who told me that ISIS is now becoming quite influential in the Maghreb, in Tunisia and Mali for example, having lost territory in Syria. English courts have already determined that mere membership of an extreme right-wing organisation is not sufficient in and of itself to justify removing children from the home. Other issues have also arisen in terms of the persons who administer and transcribe the tapes. We need to make that the content is not leaked. And all of these needs to be viewed in light of the privacy rights guaranteed by Article 8 ECHR. We need to move away from the idea that Satan is abroad holding satire parties. The danger is also lurking from within the borders. In one case, for example, the mother was caught trying to remove her four children from three to thirteen to Syria via Turkey with ISIS flags in her luggage.

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Tim Amos One possible point of unity between the systems of England and the Netherlands is in the way that they seek to provide for clarity on how to review evidence that is not seen by the parties, often referred to as secret evidence. The European Parliament reported on this issue in 2014 and found that the UK was at one extreme of the list of European jurisdictions with regard to the use of secret evidence. And the Netherlands was towards the same end of the scale (although less). By contrast Germany and France, for example, allowed for such evidence on a very much smaller scale. Tim Amos And so it is a point of commonality that orbits our jurisdictions. How should such evidence be used?

LINCOLN’S INN

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It might be an idea to turn this question around and see how countries use the ‘fruit of the poisoned tree’ as we say (i.e. evidence which has been unlawfully obtained). In general, there is an increasing tendency in England to adopt the European approach of saying that if the evidence was obtained illegally, then that evidence will not be used.

“And so it is a point of commonality that orbits our jurisdictions” Etienne van Bladel Our time has unfortunately come to an end. I would like to thank all of you for your contributions and the interesting discussions that we have had.

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LINCOLNâ&#x20AC;&#x2122;S INN - GREAT HALL

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Never give up!