13 minute read
Dating Dialogue
What Would You Do If…
Moderated by Jennifer Mann, LCSW of The Navidaters
Advertisement
Dear I’m desperately seeking advice and would appreciate the diversity of your panel’s perspective. Navidaters, I’m dating a great girl for the past two months. She is everything I’m looking for, and I am attracted to her. The problem is there are sometimes we go out that I’m feeling much less attracted. This is particularly when we eat out. She eats a bit sloppily. Examples include: she takes big bites when eating, talks with her mouth full, will blow her nose at the table with a napkin, eats from the salad bowl directly with her fork. On a few occasions when we’ve eaten at friends’ houses for Shabbos, I’ve seen her pick at food with her fingers straight from the pan.
I grew up with parents who are OCD with cleanliness and are sticklers for proper table manners. I absolutely can’t bring her over for a meal, let alone marry her, the way she conducts herself at a table. It sounds dumb, but is it time to call it quits on the relationship because of these things or is there something I can do about it? I certainly don’t want her to change who she is for me...
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Disclaimer: This column is not intended to diagnose or otherwise conclude resolutions to any questions. Our intention is not to offer any definitive conclusions to any particular question, rather offer areas of exploration for the author and reader. Due to the nature of the column receiving only a short snapshot of an issue, without the benefit of an actual discussion, the panel’s role is to offer a range of possibilities. We hope to open up meaningful dialogue and individual exploration.
The Panel
The Rebbetzin
Lisa Babich
Thank you for your question. As I read it, it seemed like a familiar one. That is because no matter who we marry we are coming from different cultures, backgrounds, upbringings and, yes, “rules of etiquette.”
I remember having a teacher who told us she once told her husband he was eating like a pig after he scarfed down food. They were from different countries and upbringings, and in his country calling a human a pig was the lowest insult imaginable. He was unable to talk to her for three days.
Why am I telling you all this? It seems that you and the girl you are dating come from very different upbringings surrounding table manners. With that said, you do like her, and it sounds like you are attracted to her as long as she is not eating. I think there can be a delicate way to discuss this with her. You know the dynamics of your relationship and if humor vs. serious talk is the best way to go. I think if she understands how sensitive this is to you and how much it is affecting your relationship, she will be open and able to change.
This is not the first time I have heard of this exact situation, and if both sides are willing to be flexible and grow, then there is no reason why this can’t work. This is not just in the area of table etiquette, but in many differences that can potentially come up in a relationship.
I hope this helps, and I wish you much hatzlacha!
The Shadchan
Michelle Mond
Let’s make this simple. If you cannot imagine bringing a girl home without being embarrassed by her, it is most likely she is not for you.
Now let’s get into the nitty gritty. I know many people who eat the way you describe. You will see them pick out leftovers straight from the pan after the meal, pick from the salad from the bowl, pick at the gooey part of the brownie they want to taste, or innocently lick their fingers at the table. This boils down to table manners. Many of these people did not learn that it was rude or unsightly to eat this way.
It also boils down to how the person has been “trained” at home. Unfortunately, our generation is very much “on the go.” It has become the norm to grab a bite to eat and eat it sloppily in the car while driving back to the office in time for lunch break to be over. If you open a social media app at lunchtime, you might see an influencer (or two, or three) sitting at a cafe with the camera towards them, taking messy bites from wraps, burgers or salads while promoting products. Talking while munching, lettuce falling out of their mouth, you get the gist. Our generation watches these things, and it becomes normal.
I am not going to say the girl you are dating must be sloppy or inappropriate, because it could just be this is a product of our society. However, seemingly, your family is the exact opposite. You care about manners and table decorum. This makes me wonder how much else is different that would bother you in a marriage as well. At the end of the day, you are the one who has to make this decision.
Without trying to change her, talk to her about your feelings. If this is something that won’t make a difference in her life, and she doesn’t mind working on it, you will have to be patient with her.
Remember, if you choose her, you are choosing her along with all of the idiosyncrasies that come with her. Good luck with this conversation, and I hope you have clarity!
The Zaidy
Dr. Jeffrey Galler
Your story is a popular theme that appears often in Western civilization literature. A sophisticated, cultured gentleman takes an unsophisticated, uncouth young lady under his wing and teaches her how to dress, how to speak, and how to act in public.
Think of Shakespeare’s Taming of the Shrew (1580), George Bernard Shaw’s Pygmalion (1913), Broadway’s My Fair Lady (1956), and Hollywood’s Pretty Woman (1990). In these tales, the gentleman transforms the girl from an uncivilized commoner into a refined princess. She, in turn, turns out to be a hidden gem with a heart of gold, who, simultaneously, helps the guy evolve into a much better version of himself.
These tales end with the couple living happily ever after. The question for you is can you succeed in changing your girlfriend’s table manners?
I see three dangers here:
First, is it possible that you are experiencing commitment anxiety and are using this excuse to convince yourself that the relationship can’t succeed? Guys sometimes find similar excuses (“She walks or talks too fast,” or “She breathes too loudly”) in order to avoid commitment. Only you can answer that question.
Second, her eating habits might be symptomatic of a person who is generally sloppy, unhygienic, and difficult to live
with. Is her car filled with junk, and does it smell like a pigsty? If so, you might wish to end this relationship.
Third, in your efforts to “improve” her, she might conclude that are a very controlling person, despite your claiming that you, “Don’t want to change who she is.” You can be sure that she will be worrying, “Will I have to live with someone who will constantly complain that I am wearing too much or too little makeup?
Will I spend the rest of my life being told what to do and what not to do?” Most women would not wish to share their lives with an overly controlling husband.
So, can you succeed in improving her eating habits? You can try.
Remember that positive reinforcement works much better than negative reinforcement. Specifically, it is more effective to praise someone when they are engaged in proper behavior, rather than criticize them when they are engaged in negative behavior.
Accordingly, it might be effective to praise her when you witness good table manners, by remarking: “I love the way you look so dainty and lady-like when you carefully cut your food into small pieces like that,” or “I find it so charming when you wouldn’t answer me when your
Pulling It All Together
The Navidaters
Dating and Relationship Coaches and Therapists
mouth was full.”
By contrast, it is rude and ineffective to remark: “I get nauseous when you eat with your fingers,” or “It’s disgusting when you speak with a mouthful of food.”
Psychologists use a term called the “Pygmalion Effect.” When good behavior is reinforced and when a person believes in his ability to succeed, it increases the probability of success. By contrast, psychologists use a term, called the “Golem Effect.” When bad behavior is reinforced and a person’s abilities are belittled, this negative stereotype is reinforced, and it decreases the probability of success.
Good luck, and let’s hope that this relationship has a happy, Hollywood ending.
As hard and uncomfortable as it may likely be, real couples have really hard conversations. If this is something that is on your mind so much so that you are considering breaking up, then you need to talk to your girlfriend about this. The way in which you do it is very significant as this is the type of conversation that can potentially make someone feel ashamed and/or leave her running for the hills. Put it all on you.
“There is something I want to talk about. I grew up in a very proper home, maybe even a little too proper, bordering on OCD. I’m so into you. I’m crazy about you. I see a future with you. I am just struggling with my ideas around table manners. I notice that we are different when it comes to that. I’m wondering if you’ve noticed it, too. Would it be OK to talk about this? I’ve been concerned about bringing it up because I don’t want to hurt you.” Start with something like that, with the caveat that I am having a hard time telling if you’re a tad on the rigid side or your girlfriend truly is unmannered. Do you struggle with flexibility in other areas of your life? If you do, that may something worth looking into as you date and enter marriage, G-d willing. Rigidity is a characteristic that is very hard on a partner. If you don’t struggle with flexibility, please disregard.
Marriage is a lifetime of sensitive conversations. If you and the woman you are dating are meant to be life partners and travel this lifetime together, and if you present with sensitivity and kindness, you will be able to weather the storm of this conversation. If you are not for each other, better to know now.
Good luck and all the best.
Happy Chanukah to all!
Sincerely, Jennifer
Tzipora Grodko’s answer from last issue was inadvertently left out. We print her answer below.
Dear Atara,
I know so many women who can relate to you, feeling confused by the hope and promise of a relationship while facing the reality of a “let’s just see where this goes” attitude. Simply put, the purpose of dating is for marriage. However, many men will date for the purpose of dating, unaware of their fears or disinterests towards marriage. This leads to broken hearts, confused and unhealthy relationships, and personal stagnation. This non-committal (conscious or subconscious) attitude is even more common in relationships that don’t practice the laws of shomer negiah, as physical needs are being met, prolonging the attention of emotional and foundational priorities.
It sounds like you and Mark have passively fantasized about a future together, creating the expectation that you are committed to each other. However, his actions/words seem to reflect differently. The million dollar question is: Is he marriage minded? If Mike isn’t ready for that step (with anyone), then I don’t believe spending more time with you will change that. On the contrary, I think it’s the opposite. I think spending time apart will clarify if he is ready to be in a committed relationship, or if he needs to work through his own emotional fears or concerns. If you feel like you want that commitment, talk it out. Gain clarity. Receive concrete responses and don’t give in to charismatic vague explanations. You know your worth and need to protect yourself while setting a standard.
I believe that the right person will fight to make the relationship work, and it will cause them pain to consider a future without you. That may be Mike, but you need to have a very serious talk with him to find out. I don’t think any of us can give you a definitive answer, but I truly believe that your heart knows what you deserve.
Jennifer Mann, LCSW is a licensed psychotherapist and certified trauma healing life coach, as well as a dating and relationship coach working with individuals, couples, and families in private practice at 123 Maple Avenue in Cedarhurst, NY. She also teaches a psychology course at Touro College. To set up a consultation or to ask questions, please call 718-908-0512. Visit www. thenavidaters.com for more information. If you would like to submit a dating or relationship question to the panel anonymously, please email JenniferMannLCSW@gmail.com. You can follow The Navidaters on FB and Instagram for dating and relationship advice.
You deserve a breakl lLet your family enjoy too!
FEEDS 6 $169.99 FEEDS 6 $169.99 Friday Night
2 Challahs 2 Dips 2 qt Chicken Soup 6 Matzoh Balls Box of Cookies
Appetizer CHOOSE 1
❍ 7 pcs Salmon Wellington ❍ 7 pcs Gefilta Fish + 2 pcs Salmon
Main Dish CHOOSE 1
❍ Brisket with Gravy ❍ Pastrami Stuffed Chicken ❍ Roast Chicken ❍ Grilled Chicken ❍ Shnitzel Parve Salads CHOOSE 2
❍ Coleslaw ❍ Potato Salad ❍ Cous Cous ❍ Cucumber Salad ❍ Israeli Salad ❍ Baby Corn Salad ❍ Chickpea Salad ❍ Quinoa ❍ Corn Salad ❍ Garden Salad ❍ Cesar Salad
Side 1 CHOOSE 1
❍ Rice ❍ Roasted Potatoes ❍ Potato Kugel ❍ Farfal
Side 2 CHOOSE 1
❍ Roasted Vegetables ❍ Green Beans
Shabbos Day
2 Challahs 2 Dips London Broil 2 qt Cholent Box of Cookies
Appetizer CHOOSE 1 Parve Salads CHOOSE 2
❍ Coleslaw ❍ Potato Salad ❍ Cous Cous ❍ Cucumber Salad ❍ Israeli Salad ❍ Baby Corn Salad ❍ Chickpea Salad ❍ Quinoa ❍ Corn Salad ❍ Garden Salad ❍ Cesar Salad
❍ 1 lb Liver & 1 lb Egg Salad ❍ Liver Sauté & 1 lb Egg Salad ❍ Gefilta Fish ❍ Salmon
Premium Deli CHOOSE 1
❍ Corned Beef ❍ Roast Beef ❍ Pastrami ❍ Brisket
Deli CHOOSE 1
❍ Turkey Pastrami ❍ Salami ❍ Bologna ❍ Gourmet Turkey ❍ Classic Turkey ❍ Honey Turkey ❍ Smoked Turkey ❍ Mexican Turkey
ADD ONS
AVAILABLE
WITH EITHER PACKAGE
❍ Salmon Appetizer • $5 pp ❍ Turkey Salad • $11 / lb (min. 1 lb) ❍ London Broil • $9 pp ❍ Brisket and Gravy • $9 pp
❍ Glazed Corned Beef • $9 pp ❍ Salmon Wellington • $14 / loaf ❍ Grilled Chicken • $5 pp ❍ 8x5 Yapchick • $14 ❍ 8x5 Apple Cobbler • $12 ❍ Cookies • $8 / box ❍ Turkey Salad • $11 / lb ❍ Pastrami & Kishka Stuffed Chicken Breast • $10 / piece 6-8 Pieces Chicken CHOOSE 1
❍ Grilled Chicken Strips ❍ Shnitzel Fingers 8x5 Kugels CHOOSE 1
❍ Potato ❍ Sweet Noodle ❍ Yerushalmi
CHOOSE 1 ❍ Friday Night ❍ Shabbos Day
Name: Free delivery to* : Cell: Delivery date: Special requests:
SUBMIT ORDER VIA EMAIL OR PHONE. orders.knishshop@gmail.com | 410.484.5850 x1
