Interview by rodger xcrawford

Martian Bashir’s interview with the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan

Bashir: How are you physically? What is your current condition? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Physically I am not where I want to be but I am along way from where I was. The operation by the grace of Allah (God) was a great success. And it has improved the quality of life that I have. The doctors have encouraged me to take it easy and don’t rush back to work. And so I am going to gradually work myself back to a full schedule. But right now I am taking it a day at a time making sure that eat as properly as I should to get back some of the weight that lost. But health wise I am pretty good. Bashir: Many of your supporters and followers are interested to know exactly what your condition is. Do you have cancer? Because we know that it started as prostate cancer. The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan : Yes, um, unfortunately, or fortunately, when they went in to remove the prostate, they found cancer in the colon. So they cut that out, and the margins were clear, the lymph nodes were clear. And so they believe that they have it, but I'm undergoing testing right now to make sure that I'm clear of that. And you go over one mountain and you get down in a valley and you've got another mountain to climb, but God is great, and he has brought me from a mighty long way, and I believe he'll see me through until it's time for me to come in. Bashir: There were also consequences as a result of some pellets that were placed in your body. Did they make matters worse or improve things? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan : Well, in one sense, they improved things, because they killed the cancer, but the radiation was so strong that unfortunately it affected the colon and the urethra. I had a fistula or a hole, where there was communication between the two, and that made it very difficult for me. But all of that has been removed and cleared up from the surgery. Bashir: One question that many people are asking is how much longer can you lead the Nation of Islam given your condition and the difficulties that you have had? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: How Old is God? And how fresh is God in every generation because wisdom does not get old. The body gets old, Moses was a 120 and he was still giving directions until time was up for him. As my physical body wears down I am training a lot of young strong men and women who will continue to do the day to day work. But as long as I have life and I am not mentally incapacitated I will continue to guide the Nation and those that are set in authority until my time is over.

Bashir: Many people were remarked on how impressive you were to preach for 2 whole hours on Saviours’ Day. The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: I was impressed too because I didn’t plan to do that I was hoping I could get it over in an hour or an hour and fifteen minutes but I had to thank Allah (God) for allowing me to do that. And the very next day I was still filled with energy. So I know it was more spiritual then physical. Bashir: In that address you appeared to blend both the Biblical scriptures and your references from the Qur’an. Was that your intention? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Yes I abhor the lines of division between the families of Abraham; Jews, Christians, and Muslims. And I believe with the careful study of the Qur’an and Bible and the Torah that we can use language that brings the family together rather then splits the family apart. After Pope Benedict became the Pope it was a young man on television representing Pope Benedict. I did not hear the Pope say this himself but he was concerned about the dialog that Pope John Paul (the second) had with Orthodox Christians, Jews, Muslims and others. But he said from what this gentleman said that the dialog did not go far enough or deep enough. And as an intellectual he wanted the dialog to begin to address the things not the things we have in common but the things that Islam and Judaism and Christianity have at variance. And if the scholars of Islam, Christianity and Judaism can attack those things in an atmosphere of peace and love and mutual respect then I believe the family of Abraham can come together. And the basis of the kingdom of God can be established on the earth. Bashir: You said, “If you live the life that Jesus taught or the life that Muhammad taught; we would be in tremendous condition.” Are you suggesting then that these two historic faiths are as one in there respiration? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Yes the Christian faith more so then Judaism is deep concerned about the establishment of Gods kingdom. And so the Christian faith more then the Jewish faith is interested in proselytizing Christianity and making human beings regardless to their color, ethnicity or their tribe into Christians. So that the kingdom that Jesus preached about would come to the earth as the Lords Prayer suggests. “Thy Kingdom come thy will be done on earth.” Well the same spirit is in Islam. Islam is a religion that proselytizes and our desire for the Mahdi is that the Mahdi would come and restore the purity of religion and establish the kingdom of Islam on earth. Well I don’t see any difference between the kingdom of God, the kingdom of Allah or the kingdom of Islam. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad, my teacher taught me that the kingdom of God is a government under the rules and laws of God. That is a theocracy.

Bashir: But it seems a long way from Fard Muhammad who is the founder of the Nation of Islam; who said that Christianity was the religion of slave-owners and had been used to enslave black people. The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Well if you look at the history. Bashir: But is not that what he said? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan : No he did not say that. I did not hear him say that but I did hear the Honorable Elijah Muhammad say that Christianity was an organized religion by White people for the subjugation of Black people. So now when you look at Jesus Christ and you look at organized religion there is a big difference between Jesus and organized religion. In fact when Constantine the Emperor of Rome became a Christian he had a vision and he is the one that saw a cross. And the Latin words under it ‘en hoc signor incase” which means with this sign we conquer. The sign that Jesus used was a fish. The sign that Constantine used was a cross. Naturally connecting that to Jesuses suffering and death on the cross, the cross became the symbol of Christian conquest. But also unfortunately it became the symbol of White Supremacy dressed in the name of Jesus Christ. So all of the darker people of the world that were made into Christians suffered under White rule; the British said there were Christians but Indians and the Pakistani’s and the Bangladeshi and the African suffered under their rule. The people that brought and sold us said they believed in Jesus Christ but we were hung on trees and burned at stake and given accusation of being less then a human being. So Christians this why Pope John Paul spoke to the indigenous people of the world and apologized for the way Christians treated the native people or indigenous peoples of the world. And this America refuses to even apologize for the evil that was done to black people, to the Native American etc. Bashir: So going back to the principle you’re speaking about bringing these two great faiths together? You preached in your Saviours Day sermon from the Qur’an and from the Biblical scriptures and yet you reject Christianity. The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan : No we reject that which was done in the name of Jesus Christ not Jesus Christ not His Gospel not what he taught. What he taught was pure righteousness but how many of us are reprising God knows when I see my brothers and sisters who are artist who use some of the foulest language but they wear the cross and when they get their Grammy or their or that they say, “I thank My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. But he did not save you from ill conduct. He did not save you from calling your women out of the name of a creature created in the image and likeness of God. We are so contrary that we are not even in recognition that we are as far way from Jesus as the far planet Pluto is from the sun, 4,600,000,000 I believe it is. That is how far we are away from Jesus Christ and that is how far the Muslim world is away from Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.) both of these noble and worthy servants of God.

Bashir: So what you are saying is that the leaders of these faiths preach and taught one thing but the followers have been emasculated and misappropriated that is wrong ways? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: No I would say the leaders were the mis- teachers and the people could not go beyond how they were taught and trained. This is why I think that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad pointed out in the scripture that there would be a new heaven and a new earth and the former things would pass away. Religion as we know it has failed. It has failed to cultivate the human being and make us reflections of our Creator. Islam has failed in this respect. Christianity has failed in this respect. Judaism has failed in this respect. Bashir: Nation of Islam has failed? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: All of us have a degree of failure but the Nation of Islam is trying to restore us back to that civilized behavior that a true Christian and a true Muslim and a true Jew would exemplify. As well as a true Buddhist or a true Hindu would exemplify. Bashir: But here is a Theological problem; Christianity and Islam would both describe themselves as exclusivist. They would say for example “That Christ is the mediator to God and He is (trenfully----------)-human and (-------------) divine and He is the only way to God. Islam would say that Prophet Muhammad is the light to the path to God. You are suggesting that these two things can come together. I put it too you that actually within their own Theology they don’t except that the other could be right. The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: It is because of a lack of understanding. You know your mother might teach you that 3 and 4 is 7. My mom might teach me 5 and 2 is 7. Bashir: But Jesus The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: And somebody will teach that 6 and 1 is 7 and when we meet we will start arguing because we don’t know the root. We don’t understand the principles that under gird the mathematics that we were taught. Most people in religion don’t understand the progression from Abraham to Muhammad it really is one religion. And the way that you know it is one religion is not by the name but by studying the principles that each of these great ones taught. If you look at what Jesus taught principally and look at what Muhammad taught principally and look at what Abraham and Moses and the Israelites prophets taught; they all taught the same principles but under girded a contemporary message that was used too correct contemporary problems. And what happens we get lost in the contemporary and we have forgotten the eternal truths that under gird all of the religions and all of the teaching of the prophets. Bashir: I will come back to that in a minute because that is an important issue but we will come back to that in a moment. But I want to know if I can we talked about what you have

wanted to say and what you did say in your Saviours Day Address in terms of your beliefs. Do you still regard white people as devils created by an evil scientist? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Well, the truth is, any human being that rebels against God, and rebels against his law, can be classified as a devil. If we look at the behavior of white people in their relationship to the darker people of the world, we couldn't say that they acted as angels. They acted quite the contrary. But we're in a time of enlightenment now. The darker people of the world are rising and challenging racist institutions, and now white people have a chance to change their behavior, change a historical pattern in dealing with the darker people of the world. And we who have been trained in rebellion to God have a chance to come out of that rebellion into submission. And when we submit to the will of God, it makes no difference what our color is, we are brothers and sisters in faith. Bashir: So today, in 2007, do you regard white people as devils? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: The Honorable Elijah Muhammad instructed me before he left to change that language. Yes, white people have acted as devils, no question about that. But he told me; don't use that language any more. I want you to use the language Satan, the slave master's children, and the slave master. And I asked myself later, God, I should have questioned him: Why do you want me to change the language that you instituted? It's because Satan is a Mecca of devils, and he makes evil fair-seeming, so whether you're black or white or red or yellow, if you come under the deceitful touch of Satan, he'll make what is immoral look moral, and what is moral look immoral. Bashir: Do you regard the honorable Elijah Muhammad as God? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: No. Bashir: You don't? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: No! We regard him as a Warner, we regard him as a Guide, and I look upon him as a Messianic figure. Bashir: So he was somebody who came to speak the words of God, but he isn't God himself? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: No. He came to speak the words of God, but we would be foolish to worship him as if he were in fact the originator of the heavens and earth. Bashir: Do you regard yourself then as his messenger on earth, the little messiah? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: I regard myself as his extension. An extension of his warning, an extension of his guidance, an extension of his message, but I don't go so far as to call myself a Messenger of God; nothing like that; but maybe a little messiah. but a very teeny one. Bashir: You, I want again to go over, you remember the vision you experienced in 1985 on top of an Aztec mountain?

The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Yes. Bashir: When you said that you had been beamed on board a UFO and flew into space. Do you still maintain that that's what happened to you? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Oh, absolutely. I've maintained that for, since 1985, which is, what, 21 years now. I have never deviated from that experience, because that experience was as real to me as you sitting in front of me, Mr. Bashir. Bashir: Can you understand why some people hearing you talk about space travel might be tempted to think it sounds strange? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Well of course. Those who listen to Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) in his night journey and he was definitely in a tent with some followers around him but the next morning he told them he visited Jerusalem and then was taken on a swift animal of some sort and then he went up into the heavens. He met prophet this and prophet that and then finally he went into the inner sanctum and spoke with God Himself. Well there is so much controversy over his night vision. Some say was it a vision or did he go in his body? But he gave proofs that he did travel. The Qur’an says, “Allah is He who takes men’s souls by night.” And when I was a little boy my beautiful Christian mother at that time made me say the prayer, “Now lay me down to sleep I pray the lord my soul to keep and if I die before I wake I pray the lord my soul to take.” I know physically I did not go anywhere but spiritually I did travel. And spiritually I heard the voice of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. And spiritually he made me to know what president of was planning with his Joint Chiefs of Staff. And I have never deviated from that and he gave me instructions to tell the world. That when I revealed what Reagan was planning and I know what Bush was planning and I know what Carter and Clinton were planning because they all are in the same line from Reagan; everyone of them had some conflict with a Muslim nation. But Bush is the head of it all because he has brought the whole Islamic world now into anger against him and America and the West. Bashir: Before we come to Hitler have you ever had an experience like that again? Have you ever been in one of those UFOs? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: No. Bashir: That has never happened. And you maintain, you are obviously a very rational man but you maintain that that actually happened. Other people might be tempted to think that you were suffering some kind of psychological delusion or something but perhaps it was some kind of insane vision of some kind? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Well I guess if you talk to Nostradamus when he was among us he would probably say the same. People that have visions were called witches and burned at the stake because God sends people out for certain experiences. There are some people that learn how to prophecy from a careful study of history but there are others that are born with that gift to see. I had an experience; it was not your experience it was my experience all I can do is relate my experience. When I was at an editorial board meeting with the Washington Post the big man at the post. They have a book by him (Bradley). At the editorial board meeting he said what all this ‘Wheel 6

stuff’ you are talking about? And I reached down in my bag and got out some facts Jimmy Carter before he became president said he saw them. They were real to him. He said that he became president he would open up the file but he never did. When a Japanese pilot was flying a 747 across the Bering Straights he saw this huge Wheel. And he said it looked like two (2) of the largest aircraft carriers together. And the largest aircraft carrier is 440 yards in length and two of them would be a ½ of a mile. And the Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught us that that Wheel was a ½ of a mile by ½ mile. The government knows. The astronauts that go out in space they know but they can’t talk but I can. And I am telling you sir that before you all can make mockery of me you will begin seeing these little wheels over the major cities. And what are you going to tell the people after lying to them for so long? That this is swamp gas or this is a balloon or this is that; when you know the truth but you lie (not you personally) but the government has lied to the America people. And in the end the people will lose all hope confidence in there government as a group of liars that hide the truth from the masses of the people to keep them under control. There is a greater power in the world then the United States of America and you soon will come to know it. Bashir: And you think that that power expresses presents itself in the form of these Wheels or UFOs? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Ezekiel in the Bible 595 BC looked up and he saw a vision of a Wheel in the middle of a Wheel. And Christians that I know in the Baptist Church sing about this Wheel in the middle of a Wheel. The Wheel that Ezekiel saw back then is a reality now. We have all kind of shows on television now talking about UFOs and the scientist and this and that and the people that went on board these crafts. I can’t tell you physically that I have been on board. But I can’t tell you spiritually I was taken there and I was promised that I had one more thing to do and when I did that one more thing they would bring me again to the Wheel and I would see my leader that the world thinks that is dead face to face. That is my experience; I believe it 1000%. Bashir: Have you done that thing yet? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: No I don’t know I have been trying to do so many things to see if I can get that one thing done. I am laughing but it is very serious with me. I thought the Million Man March might have been that one more thing. Bashir: As you reflect now on the struggle for Black equality and empowerment over the decades where do you think the Black community stands today in 2007? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: We have more black millionaires then we have ever had. We have billionaires now. We have more black people with bachelor’s degrees, master degrees, and PHD degrees. We have more political clout interims of blacks in state legislators, city counsel, black mayors, and black sheriffs. And on the surface that looks wonderful because we have to say that to a degree we have made progress. But you don’t judge progress by the few. You judge progress by the masses and the masses of our people are not going forward. They are slipping further and further behind. So our thought in the Nation of Islam is that we must collect the learned of our people. We have some of the most brilliant people in every field of human endeavor. We need to collect them, unite them and present them with the problem of our people that we can put 7

our minds to working a programmatic way to lift the masses of the people. If we don’t do that then we have failed. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught me that no one man can rise above the condition of his people. So if I rise and I don’t help to raise others then my rise is mockery because I am the one that got away. I am the first Negro in ABC or I am the first Negro in the NBA or in Baseball. But everyone that was the first struggled and suffered to open the way for others. So my teacher said, “Blessed is the man who forges the way for others.” So these great one’s that we have now must look at the condition of our people particularly in the light of the governments failure with Katrina and say that we must come together pool our resources: intellectually and financially and lift our people. And stop being a beggar at the gate of White America; for White America sustenance is gradually diminishing. So we can’t continue to depend on America to do for us what we have the capacity and the ability to do for our selves. Bashir: You were just talking about making the very important point for instance when individualistic advance by black leaders and various fields, politic, financially, sports there has not been this collective growth or improvement. The average black wage is still only 75% of the average White wages in America in affect Black median net worth is about 6,000.00 compared to 88,000.00 for Whites. Does that tell you then that all of the efforts that you have given through out your life to raise the plight of the Black man and woman have really been largely in effective? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: To a degree, all of us who are in leadership when we look at the condition of our people the condition of our people tell us how effective we have been but there is a time that our people will fully awaken. The knowledge is there. We can create the opportunity. We can rise above where we are. There is serve opposition to our rise but the Holy Qur’an teaches that all opposition at some point will cease. The questions that you are putting to me the answers that Allah (God) blesses me to give. The speech that I made last Sunday in Detroit is almost like breaking me out of prison. I am in a prison not because I deserve to be there but my passion for truth and justice and pointing out the wrong that I see not only in the government of the United States or in other ethnic or racial groups but the wrong that I see in my own people. Why do you point out wrong? Is it because you hate? You point out wrong because hope that by pointing out wrong someone will recognize the wrong and confess it and repent it and change. So I am getting out of jail now and I believe that as I come more out of prison; I am out of the cell now and the warden seems to have lost the keys but I have found them and I intended to get completely out of jail by Allah (God’s) permission. So that the America people can know that Farrakhan is not anti-white, anti-Semitic, anti-America, antiGay. But Farrakhan is pro black and believe me I would be a fool to be pro the country in which I am born and nurtured and have grown. I would like to see America in a much better condition and position then she is in right now but I do not think she is making the right steps. I don’t think the present government is leading her in the right direction. In fact I really believe we need a regime change in the United States of America.

Bashir: It is noticeable that you are using different language compared to the sort of thing that you said in the past. Are you saying now that you regret some of those inflammatory statements? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan : I can never ever regret speaking the truth. Bashir: But do you regret the way you said some of those things? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan : The way I speak truth; the passion that I have for the truth that I speak can sometimes get in the way of people hearing what I have to say. That is all part of my growth and development. I am not today what I was but I am hoping that the language that I use will get past yesterday’s barriers and that I will be more clear and understood. I have always been understood by black people but greatly misunderstood by other then my own. But this is a universal teaching and if you are misunderstood by the world and only understood by your own people we miss the mark. BASHIR: So, do you now regret describing Judaism as a dirty religion? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan : I never said that – BASHIR: You never said that? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan : No, of course not. And it bothers me that some 20 years later I still have to answer … BASHIR: Please do … The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan : I'm not going to waste time with that. I've been on ABC, I've been on "Nightline," I've been on all those television shows and answered those same questions. And that would just be taking me back in time and I think if you really want to get my answers go back in your files. You have them. BASHIR: What about referring to Hitler as being "wickedly great"? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: I stand by that statement today. What does great mean, to you? BASHIR: You think he was wickedly great? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: What does great mean, to you? BASHIR: Substantive, impressive. The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Wasn't he? You're still talking about him. BASHIR: I have to stay I don't think he was impressive for murdering 6 million Jews. The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: No, that's not impressive, that's wicked, so I used an adverb to describe an adjective. I was perfectly in accord with the English language which is not mine, but you taught it to me and I learned it quite well. So I was not wrong, GREAT is not synonymous with GOOD except in colloquial language. Babylon was great but she wasn't good.

BASHIR: Can you understand why people would have found that so offensive? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: No, I really don't. I really think it’s a mental illness with people. When I speak very clearly, if I say the man was wicked but he was so great that you're still talking about him 50 years later, if he didn't make an impact on Jewish people, and an impact on the world, why are you still referring to him, why are you still making movies about him? Why are you still making movies about him, why are you still teaching the world what he did? Let him die. Let him die. Then his so-called greatness of that time would die with him. But he's as great today in terms of his magnitude, in terms of his effect on people, as he was then. And like some people say to black people, which is an affront, GET OVER IT. Hitler is dead and gone. And his ideas are weak and they are being destroyed by a greater presence of truth so he will die when his ideas die. He's been dead. But have you killed the idea of Aryan supremacy, have you killed the idea of anti-Semitism and hatefulness toward Jews? No you have not killed that idea yet. So that man, who was the greatest exponent of it in terms of not just what he said but what he did, no, let him die. BASHIR: What about you saying that Jews were blood-suckers because they didn't offer anything back to the community? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: You know if you go back, that statement was made on "Meet the Press" the day before the Million Man March. And my brother Johnny Cochran was being interviewed and you know how you all do. I'm giving you a lot of material, what will you use? What will you present to the American people of Farrakhan? Not you personally, because you are subjected to editors, you are subjected to people who have another view. You're here to get information but what they do with it, that's another thing. I said Jews, Arabs, Koreans, Chinese, others and black people taking from our community, building up their communities and doing nothing for our community. They are blood-suckers of the poor. That is the language I used. And when that came up on "Meet the Press" they took out all the other people that I mentioned and mentioned just the Jewish people. So that feeds the thought that Farrakhan is an anti-Semite. Well in that case, call me antiblack because there are black people that suck the blood of black people and give nothing back. There are Koreans right now that do that; there are Arabs right now who do that. But I say that and I don't back up from that. BASHIR: What about the anthem you wrote "that a white man's heaven is a black man's hell?" The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Absolutely true. Absolutely generally true. Specifically true. We built a heaven for white people in America. We built it. It was built on our backs. And while we were building them a heaven we were in the cotton fields picking cotton. They were whipping the daylights out of us, they were lynching us, burning us at the state. We were living in hell while we were producing a heaven for others. Your father was Pakistani, but at one time all India was ruled by the British. You were living in a veritable hell while the British were sucking the blood of the Indian population until Mahatma Gandhi stood up and united Hindu and Muslim and threw off the yoke. So yes,

that is true but we can change all of that. Hell is condition of life, and we can turn hell into heaven. White folk don't have the power to make us stay in hell if we don't want to stay there. That's our fault today. BASHIR: One of the things that you said earlier was that it was time for Black people to grasp the situation because you said the White commitment is declining. Do you think that Affirmative Action has been a positive or a negative influence for the good of black people? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Well it has been positive for black people but it has a negative effect in the white community. We really don’t need anything but an even playing field. And if we had an even playing field; crème always raises to the top. If have the ability we can go there all we want is the opportunity to play on an even playing field. And if America can’t give us that then we have to find away to give that too ourselves. BASHIR: Do you still stand firm on the issue of racial mixing? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: I don't like it. No, no. BASHIR: Why not? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: No, no the black woman is suffering today from no black men. Black men in jail, black men on the corner, black men uneducated. Go look at the black colleges or white colleges you see black women in there getting the finest education. Where will their counterparts be when they get out of college? There's no male counterpart that's even worthy, or very few, that are even worthy to marry these young women who are trying to be chemists and scientists and mathematicians and engineers. So we need to wake up, that's why I called the Million Man March. I wanted to get black men to take their responsibility. Now you can't legislate against love, so when a black person and a white person are truly in love I have nothing to say about that. BASHIR: Do you forbid black and white dating and marriage? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: I would love to forbid it because we are so far behind. Our women don't have adequate men, so I want the black men to marry the black woman. I want the white woman to marry the white man. BASHIR: Why? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: 'Cause that's the natural thing. If it were not natural you would have many many many many many cross-marriages. You don't find that many Chinese marrying white people. Or Indian people or black people. You find it somewhere, but Chinese marry Chinese, white people marry white people, what's wrong with black people marrying black people? That don't mean we're racist, but we look at the crossing of the two. Well, OK they're in love, love transcends ethnicity and racial boundaries and there will come a time when human beings will love each other enough or respect each other enough that there will be a cross between this and that, but the nature of things is if China became Muslim tomorrow, they ain't marrying Japanese. They ain't even marrying Koreans.

BASHIR: But doesn't it tell us that a society is advancing in its compassion and understanding of equality? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Is it really? BASHIR: If people can mix? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Is it really advancing if there's no advancement in the intellectual capacity of the masses of the people? BASHIR: But I'm not talking about academic achievement. The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: But what I'm talking about sir, is a slave mentality where the slave is always admiring the slave master's woman. There was a time in America just a few short years ago when we could be lynched for just looking under a white woman's dress that was on a clothes line (laughs), much less trying to get sexually intimate with a white woman. So that history is right with us. You know when you talk to me like that I want you to sit with Jewish people and ask them how far have you grown? Are you will in to marry a German today? Is that easy for you? How do you bring a German home to someone who has the numbers engraved in their hand? That they were a victim of the holocaust so you have to be sensitive to what your people have suffered. Over time they say time heals wounds … well it ain't quite time yet for Jews and Germans to just mix up like that maybe. BASHIR: And is it time for black and white? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Well it's time for us to understand each other better. It’s time for us to try to get along with each other better. The principle of justice is the means by which enemies become friends. BASHIR: But aren't you yourself the product of interracial marriage? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: I absolutely am, but it wasn't interracial marriage sir, it was interracial rape. My momma was a black woman. My father was half white. So when you were on a plantation you didn't tell the master you couldn't have a black woman. White men have always had access to the black woman and because of that lighter skinned black men and women were fashioned out of that relationship. Today that's a voluntary thing but in those days it was actually rape. BASHIR: If you yourself are the product of a family background which involved interracial mixing, why do you so oppose it today? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: I just feel for the black woman. She's our woman that God gave us and she's suffering. She's suffering from the lack of a man. Black women suffering from the lack of a real true father and a true husband in the house. We know how to make the babies but we're very bad in taking care of our responsibility. I have a duty by black men to raise us up from that condition to give black men and black women a chance to relate better to each other. Then if love comes into the picture across racial lines, then we'll deal with [it] that at that time, but it's not love today, it's more lust. BASHIR: Do you still recommend the death penalty for rape and incest?

The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: There are cases where the death penalty is proper. I don’t believe you can correct savage and beastly behavior with love. You have to set examples. And when you live in a society where no examples are set people feel that they can do what they want to do and get away with it. And then the tax payers have to pay dollars to feed and shelter people that have done heinous things. My people are the victims of a systemic destruction of the moral fiber. They hate self and we hate our kind and we hate our origin in the world. So black on black crime now is worst then white misbehavior toward black people. We are slaughtering each other every weekend we are in the emergency room and hospital. That says something; when we do that to one another I believe we do it because we are uncultivated as human beings. And I say this, “We can get rid of the death penalty if we do right by the human beings that we are stewards over.” I was in death row at Cook Country jail and when I went up on death row Mr. Bashir, they told me Minister you can’t go in. You have to talk to them from behind these bars. I said no I have to go in and talk to them. We would not advise it they said. But I said I must. And they let me go in and they pushed a button and the cages of the cell doors rolled back and 17 people walked out. About 12 black and a few Hispanic and a few white. And I said everyone grab a chair and we sat in a circle. And I began to talk to them and with in 10 minutes there was a complete change in those young men. And I called the guard and I said look at them. Are they animals or are they human beings? We have failed. I am talking about government and the institutions have failed to cultivate that divine spark that is in every human being. And so when you spend 415 or more billion dollars on a military budget and 60 billion dollars for education then you are preparing for war but you are not cultivating your greatest resource which is your citizens. And so this is going on all over the world. So now little boys in Africa 10 years old killing as well as little boys in Palestine and little boys in the black neighborhoods learning how sell drugs and kill with a heartless feeling. This is done because all of the institutions that are set up to cultivate human beings have failed. And that is why there will be a new heaven and a new earth and the former things have to pass away. We have to do better by the people. BASHIR: You condemn the behavior and performance of black men regularly; you have in this interview. To what extent do you draw on your own experience of your own father? How difficult was that? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: It wasn’t difficult at all because I had a supreme mother who was enough father for me. BASHIR: You get what I am saying. What I am asking you a strident of black men because you yourself personally have experience the notion of an absent father? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: No, no I never missed my father. I never knew the man. I thank Allah (God) for him because his seed is what put me where I am. I honor him and I respect him. I am not strident on black men because it is black men’s fault. We were trained in slavery to be irresponsible. We were stud-horses so you go in an impregnate a black woman. You get a baby that is a slave and you don’t have a responsibility for the upkeep of that child or for the nurturing of that child or for the 13

mentoring of that child. You make a baby and you run. A 150 years up from slavery we are making babies and running. So now what Bill Cosby and others are saying we have to accept responsibility now. And it is up to leaders and preachers to preach to our people the acceptance of responsibility because white people can not hold us back if we don’t hold ourselves back. So that responsibility falls on me and the hundreds of leaders that are out there who claim to be leaders. We can make a better people then this and we are going to try. BASHIR: A black man, Barack Obama, has announced that he's standing for president of the United States of America. Do you support him? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: I like him very much. I like him, he has a fresh approach. And I'm fearful, because there's a structure in our government that no matter who sits in the seat of power, there are forces that one has to contend with if one is able to attract the masses of their votes. Barack Obama is doing quite well. He has a broad spectrum of young people, black and white and Asian and Hispanic, and he might fool a lot of people and get the nomination of his party. That's not my fear. He's a beautiful young man. My fear is when you get in a seat and you don't know the electrical current that's up under your seat, and you start getting these jolts and you got to see where the jolt is coming from, and now you got to bend to multinational corporations and their interests, you got to bend to this group and that group. Remember we gave you so much money, and remember we did this for you. That's the hard part. He's started off quite well. BASHIR: Some people have said that he's deliberately avoiding controversial black figures like yourself, Mr. Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, for fear of alienating white voters. The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: First of all, he… BASHIR: Do you think that's true? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: I would give him credit. If my, if avoiding me would help him to become president, I'd be glad to stay in the background, because of the taint that's on the minister. Reverend Al Sharpton is different. Reverend Al gave a very impressive speech at the last Democratic Convention. He's broad, but he comes from the black experience. He's always there fighting for justice. It's the same with Reverend Jackson. Well, Barack Obama is fighting for justice too, but not from a position where they can say he's a radical. But he still feels the pain. But he rises above it and reaches. BASHIR: But do you think he's deliberately avoiding people … The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: I can't say that. BASHIR: … like yourself to avoid alienating potential white voters? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: I can't say that, because I haven't made myself available to him. BASHIR: Has he reached out to you?

The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: He hasn't made himself available to me. But you know, we've got almost a year, eight months or so, nine months before the election. We don't know what tomorrow will bring. And I told you, I'm coming out of prison, so it might be all right to be seen with Farrakhan in a few minutes. BASHIR: There was some controversy about Mr. Obama's early Muslim education. Do you think that may have hurt his chances? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: No. No, in a world, brother Bashir, where 20 years ago you might have read the name Muhammad Ali in the paper in some vague reference to Islam, but there's not a paper that you pick up today that doesn't have some reference to a Muslim or Islam, whether it's radical or secular or this or that. So when a man gets into the presidency who has some appreciation for the culture of Islam as well as the culture of Christianity and is respectful of the Jewish culture, that man has a heck of a chance to heal wounds and to bring people together. So even though he doesn't have a lot of international exposure and experience, the man has been made for the hour, and he has a heart for his people in Africa, as you saw recently when he went to his father's home, even though his father was an absentee father. He showed great respect for his father, for his grandmother, his paternal grandmother, and the people of Africa. That will carry him well. But he also has respect for black suffering in America or wherever that is in the world. And the beautiful speech that he gave in Alabama on the crossing of the Edmund Peddes Bridge, shows the depth and the breadth of this young man. I just hope that the corrupt wellspring of politics, that he will always stay close to the purification that comes from being deeply committed spiritually to God and the principle of justice and equity. BASHIR: So do you think that he really is that man of the moment? He will be able to unite these disparate forces? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Let us see, 'cause he's just starting on a long journey. BASHIR: But that's what you're suggesting. The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Right. He is on that road, and what I see in him is that more than anyone else that's running, he has the ability to attract black and white and Hispanic youth. And it's the youth that are disenchanted, it's the youth that are dissatisfied, it's the youth that have to fight the wars, it's the youth that are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan. And so, a man like Barack, I think, has more sway with young people than all of the other candidates. BASHIR: What about Mrs. Clinton? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Not the young people. Mrs. Clinton is formidable, but Barack is even more. BASHIR: Hillary Clinton was, her husband, Bill Clinton, was described as a black president. What does that make her? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Really, not much. Although black people looked at Bill Clinton as a black president, he did less for black people than other 15

presidents. We lost the safety net under his administration, for welfare mothers. We lost a lot. But his charisma, no one can take that away from Mr. Clinton. His ability to use language in many ways has attracted the hearts of black people. And the more the establishment beat up on him with his inappropriate behavior, the more black people understood his weakness, and forgave him, and came around him. I loved Hillary, excuse me for saying Hillary, loved Mrs. Clinton, for her standing by her man, even though she was hurt, and maybe even slightly embittered. She showed the strength of a woman who could forgive her husband and keep going to present to America a family image: a mother, a father and a daughter. BASHIR: What about former Mayor Rudy Giuliani? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: No, uh. BASHIR: Mr. Giuliani, of course, in New York, had some pretty severe conflicts with the black community when he was mayor. Do you think he stands much of a chance of winning the black vote? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: No. Not at all. He could parade every black person that he knows in front of black people, he'll have a difficult time. BASHIR: Why? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: His, well his behavior, as a mayor of the city of New York, was not the best for black people, and certainly not for Muslims. Because the police attacked our mosque in New York, and his former chief of police, who is now the chief of police, or police superintendent, in Los Angeles, was told by him, according to what Chief Bratton wrote in his book, to go kill the Muslims. And he refused to do it because he had a pretty good relationship with the Muslims in Boston under the leadership of Minister Don Muhammad. So Giuliani, unless he's changed, and people do change, you know … BASHIR: You've changed. The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: No, I've grown. Well, that's change too. I felt for Mr. Giuliani when I heard that he had prostate cancer, and I wanted to write him and tell him about seed implantation, and I think he did get seed implantation and is now completely free of cancer. He'll be formidable. BASHIR: But he won't win the black vote. The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: No. Neither will McCain, neither will anybody in the Republican Party that I see right now. BASHIR: Whoever actually comes into the White House will confront some very serious tensions, particularly in relation to Islamic countries throughout the world. What do you think of President Bush's decision to invade Iraq and this war on terror? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: It was an error, and an error is an intentional departure from what is correct. That attack has brought on him and on America disfavor from around the world. Whoever gets in the White House, and seriously I'm thinking that two years or 18 months or 20 months is too long a period to let him linger 16

there without the Democrats responding appropriately to the vote that people took last November. If you cannot impeach him because it would throw the country into disarray, and if you can't take him out and leave Mr. Cheney, or Condoleezza, or any of them, that group has lied to the American people, that group has deceived the Congress, that group has manipulated intelligence to make policy, uh, intelligence fit policy, I'm sorry, make policy fit intelligence. And if they didn't like the intelligence, they changed the intelligence, because their policy was to invade Iraq. Their mind-set was to invade Iraq. So terrorism has increased all over the world since our error in, um, in Iraq. And so, I would hope that we would sit down with Iran, sit down with Syria, these are people that you can talk to if you respect their sovereignty. BASHIR: You think you can talk to President Ahmadinejad? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: I know you can. If you can't, if the president can't, I can. BASHIR: You think it's possible to talk to a man who dismisses the Holocaust as if it didn't happen and preaches against the state of Israel? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Now, you know, we have intellectual freedom. If that man wants to have a conference of so-called scholars to see whether the Holocaust is fact or fiction, let him do it. We believe in freedom, that's what we say we're fighting for. Doesn't he have the freedom to disagree? Of course he does. Whether we agree with his disagreement, that's another thing. But he has the right to disagree with the Holocaust. Right now, in Europe, if you even say something against the reality of the Holocaust, you would be jailed. What does that say? And all of us talk about how we're so democratic and how we love freedom of speech and whatnot and whatnot, but everybody's being punished for saying what's in their mind. There's a woman who was over the Cincinnati Reds, I believe, and she made a foolish statement, but it was what she thought. She had to suffer because it was politically incorrect. This black man, who made a statement, what he hates, if that's what you feel, we don't like your statement, your statement manifests this or that, but now they've punished the man for telling you what he really feels in his heart. So people then are forced to be hypocrites: Oh, yes, the Holocaust did exist, of course it does, blah blah blah blah blah blah. So if I say something incorrect I won't go to jail. You're forcing people to be hypocritical about what they feel, and yet at the same time say freedom of speech. BASHIR: The problem, though, with someone like President Ahmadinejad is not just that he denies the Holocaust but that he also wants to incite violence against Israel. That's why people object. The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Because he, like Saddam, like Bashar Al-Assad, they have never agreed that the state of Israel is legitimate to them with the Palestinian suffering. They have that right to disagree. They have that right to seek Palestinian rights and justice for the Palestinian people. They, what Ahmadinejad, from what I understand, was saying, well, if the Holocaust took place in Europe, maybe Europe should have divided up some of it's territory and given it and provided a Jewish state there. 17

Most of the Europeans that came out of Europe, they never lived in the Middle East, they're not the Sephardim, they're not the Middle Eastern Jew, they have no connection to that land except through their biblical interpretation of scripture. So, so to remove Palestinians and make them vagabonds on the earth, to do that, if Ahmadinejad does not agree with that, if Bashar Al-Assad does not agree with that, if Saddam Hussein does not agree with that, and the protection of Israel is the cornerstone of America's foreign policy, then that puts America, Israel, some European countries right after Iran, Iraq, and Syria. And that's the politics of the situation. So we're looking at Ahmadinejad from this house that is so pro-Israeli to the hurt of America. I know that Israel is the friend of America. There's nothing wrong with friendship that friendship has existed since 1948. But when your friend does things that may not do good for you and for them, the good friend will stand up and say, no, you shouldn't do that. And America has great leverage with Israel, but if you don't use that leverage to bring about some form of justice in that area, then the area is going to explode. And that's what's happening right now. So some of the people have said to President Bush, look, man, you've got to get back on the peace thing with the Palestinians and the Israelis. That debacle that took place in Lebanon that was a travesty and America let it go on and let the infrastructure of Lebanon be almost completely destroyed over what? You took some hostages. The hostages are still not back in Israel but they are alive. And I am sure they are being well treated. But to give Israel a chance to degrade Hezbollah; America just folded her hands and let it happen. That’s not being a friend to Israel. That’s not protecting America’s position in the world. And these politicians that allowed this they are not the friends of America and ultimately they will be set down. BASHIR: We are running to as close and I know you have to leave but I want to ask you are couple of questions about yourself. You have had cancer which is normally a terminal illness. You are not going to live forever (The Minister laughs). What are your reflections on where you have come and where we are today? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Certainly I am very aware of my mortality and I am very aware that I have few years in front of me and behind me. And I am deeply concerned that the ideas of my teacher the Honorable Elijah Muhammad are inculcated in generations that come behind me. The Qur’an asks the question, “Were you there when death visited Jacob.” Of course we were not there but Allah (God) was. So he revealed in the Qur’an and Jacob called all of his sons and he asked them, “What will you serve after me? And they said, “We will serve the God of Our Fathers, The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” And when he knew that his children would serve The God that he served and lived the life that he lived and do the works that he did. He closed his eyes and went to sleep in death. I would hope that the younger generation would study the works of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, the words of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, study the Holy Qur’an, and study the Bible. I gave a bibliography of several books because it was Black History Month and our children are willfully lacking in the knowledge of what we have gone through to bring us to this day and time.

So I want our people to be imbued with knowledge and I want those who come after me to take the mantel that Allah (God) has blessed me to wear from the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and continue his work until all of our people are raised from a dead level, raised from a savage state into high civilized behavior where we will be accepted and respected among all of the civilized nations of the earth. BASHIR: Any regrets, do you have any regrets? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: No! BASHIR: Are you sorry for anything you have said or done? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: No! BASHIR: Do you want to apologize to any of the groups that may have felt offend by you? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: No! No! I said to some of the groups that have “been offended by my words” come let’s sit down and reason together. Show me where what I have said was wrong. I can correct the manner of my delivery; that I would regret but the words. If they are true I would be a hypocrite to back down on the truth that I spoke but I welcome dialogue. Come let us sit down. You don’t like this. You don’t like that. Tell me what you don’t like and defend it with truth then I will go before the world where I made the error and apologize. I am not a proud man. If I have offended you and you show me where I am wrong which is your duty then I will acknowledge it if I believe it and repent of it and go before the world and say I am in error please forgive me. BASHIR: Let’s see if anyone does that. Just a final question, Can your organization (The Nation of Islam) survive without a charismatic personality like yourself? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Charisma has its place. Movements are begun by persons who have charisma off course and truth. Jesus was a magnetic and charismatic figure and so was Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Them). Moses was too even though Moses had an impediment of speech; he had Aaron by his side to deliver his message which did not take anything away from the wisdom of God’s chose of Moses. But after the charismatic person is gone there has to be system. You don’t know who the leader is in the Mormon Church but it continues to grow. The Book of Mormon is a big book that people all over the world are reading along with the Bible. They have a group; they are never on television, no one seeking an interview with the Mormons but they have money and they have juice. And Mitt Romney is not afraid to say I am a Mormon. So I am looking for the day that we do not have to follow charisma because that is short lived; the principles that under gird charisma is more important then charisma. So the young people that are coming behind me they don’t have to be charismatic although many of them are very very charismatic fiery beautiful but the main thing that I am interested in is not oratory. I am interested in character, that your word is your bond and that you have integrity and that when you say something you mean what you say and you say what you mean and that you are not duplicitous or hypocritical. 19

And that is one thing that people can say “Farrakhan whether we agree with him or not or whether we like him or not; he says what he says. I don’t agree with him but he is consistent. He is consistently right or consistently in error.” But most people believe I am consistent right. And I believe that the world will come to see that Farrakhan is not somebody that you can easily dismiss. That is why on the stage I showed generations standing behind me because this teaching going down into the generations now. We need to get into high schools and grammar schools where the problems are. When we go into high schools and grammar schools they are raising sand but when we speak to them they come almost to attention. It is not that something is wrong with our children but it is the methodology and the psychology of teaching has out lived its usefulness. And if you do not have the correct methodology and psychology to reach these children but the Rappers do. So they can sit down and quote any rap that comes up and then miss their lessons. So there is something that the Rappers have that teachers need to get. And there is something that young people have (working with these computers and these games) to watch these children is to say look at how quick their minds are. And then they go to school with a slow teacher. BASHIR: You have come a long way yourself because you were a Calypso singer in the day. Do you remember that? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: Yes of course I can’t forget that. I just recorded “The Sparrow,” who was one of the greatest calypsonians. I’m doing a musical album. I know you actually wanted play the violin, but since the operation something happened with my nerves and it is going to take a little time for my fingers to get stronger so I can play again. But I haven’t played in four months; I wouldn’t bring my violin out to play. And I know it was in Jet magazine that I played but I didn’t play. I just held the violin up and took a picture. BASHIR: OK, great. Thank you, sir. Thank you so much.