CUTE BRUISER 5 by Cute Bruiser

CUTE BRUISER is Wellington City’s No.1 most prime feminist zine. We got the name from a TV trope. “Cute bruisers” are usually small girls who fight like “bruisers”. They use raw physical power to beat back their opponents. They break all the rules, mostly the masculine stereotypes associated with the “bruiser” combat style. “Cute Bruisers” don’t have time for outdated gender norms, they’re busy punching the world into a better shape.

CONTENTS

4. A Message To Men: The Patriarchy Is The Lesser Of Two Eagles 12. Feminism Is Basically An Ocean: An Essay In Two Parts 28. Chicks Canâ&#x20AC;&#x2122;t Rock 36. Conversation With A (Kind Of) 2nd Waver

MORGAN WISHEART 4

If you’re a stereotypical man, and the oppression of women doesn’t cause you psychological suffering, I can see how the appeal of feminism is lost on you. Human societies are arranged so as to make life better for those who support the values of stereotypical masculinity. The advantages reach horrific, I-get-to-keep-my-genitals-intact proportions in certain places which I don’t ever particularly want to visit. Your response to this sort of thing might happen to be: “So what? I get to do manly things I enjoy doing. Other people can’t or don’t want to act in the same way, but that’s not my problem. That’s just too bad for them.” If so, maybe there isn’t much anyone can do to bring you around to feminism. You have it good, and you’re surrounded by peers who also have it good; why should you care that everyone who isn’t like you doesn’t have it so good? You aren’t them! Pfft, feminism. What good is it? For you, I mean. But feminism is also important for men. Sure, we men might have it good under the patriarchy. But we could have it even better. We’re missing out on something important, what is considered by many to be the most or perhaps only important thing: freedom. Men (and even women sometimes) can reap certain advantages from the male-centric way society is organized. But the catch is you have to act in very specific ways in order to do so. Men have to be ‘manly’. Women have to be ‘feminine’. Do this, and 5

you can enjoy the approval of others who are playing the same game. You can all pat each other on the backs and grin about how well this system works. So, you want to act strong, and tough, and repress all emotions that aren’t useful in a gladiatorial arena, and think of women as trophies that perform pleasant acts on your assuredly enormous penis? Outstanding, come grab a beer and flip some burgers, but stay away from the kitchen, and from those tulips in the garden over there. So, you want to defer to men on all important matters, and have overwhelming feelings that inhibit any possibility of rational thought, and judge everything but the physical appearance of a woman to be of utterly no merit?

You’re doing great babe, now be quiet and go

fix us some snacks, then hurry back to look pretty on my arm, and see if you can lose a few pounds while you’re at it. But if you decide that you don’t want to act in the ways assigned to you based on your genitalia, we’ve got a problem. Want to be a man who expresses ‘girly’ emotions, or refrains from confrontation, or dresses in something pink and/or frilly? Want to be a woman who cares about her own goals, or doesn’t resemble a Barbie doll, or takes an interest in science or mathematics? Either way you are sure to face opposition, some of it staunch and obvious, but much of it insidiously subtle. Friends and family who look at you condescendingly, who indulge your 6

passing kookiness for a time before offering gentle and then not-so-gentle hints that you shouldn’t be doing what you’re doing. They’ll tell you that you’re not acting like who you really are, because that’s dictated by whether you’ve got something dangling between your legs or not. The situation can be even more no-win for transgender people. Even if you give in and act according to the expectations for your gender (i.e. the one you identify with), if the other patriarchygame players find out you were born with different genitals you’ll be seen as trying to deceive them, or as trying to act like something you are not or should not be. You must act like a gender-role rather than who you really are, even though, again, “who you really are” is judged entirely according to superficial physical anatomy. If you live somewhere like Wellington and prune your social-circle carefully enough, you might be thinking something along the lines of: “But I don’t act like this, and no one I know acts like this. Are you sure this is really a problem?” Two things. One: While the above behaviours are probably not the most common examples in some places, if you pay close enough attention you will notice more subtle behaviours in those around you, or even in yourself, which are influenced by thinking in terms of these traditional gender-roles. This can easily happen to both men and women, and even to 7

the most self-professed feminist; Gender-roles are just that deeply ingrained into societies, because children are raised within them. Two: I’m sorry to tell you that there are communities, some small as a household and some large as a nation, in which these examples are definitely not exaggerations. In fact they may pale in comparison to reality. Just consider the death-threats that get publicly chorused in some countries at the very notion of feminine empowerment. So if you’re playing your patriarchy-approved role correctly, chances are you may be fairly satisfied with how things are arranged. Particularly, funnily enough, if you happen to be a man. But I’d wager that if you were to stray very far from this approved behaviour, thereby utilising your personal freedom of action which is so widely cherished, things wouldn’t go quite so smoothly for you. And when you are only free to choose one option, can you really say you’re free? Here’s a thought-experiment of a kind some of you have probably heard before: A surreptitious dictatorship placates its population by holding a regular democratic election. Every person is free to vote for the political candidate of their choosing. If you vote for the candidate favoured by those in power, Albert, things proceed as expected; your vote is counted and tallied. If you vote for a different candidate, such as Bill, Christine or Diana, you are intercepted at 8

the door and whisked away to a re-education camp for a few days, then brought back and given another opportunity to vote correctly. Repeat offenders are mysteriously never seen again. So even though those who vote for Albert have done so of their own free will, they really couldn’t have done otherwise if they had wanted to. This probably doesn’t satisfy many people’s concept of freedom. But if they aren’t paying attention, Albert-voters may not notice that anything is amiss, despite the fact that they are the only ones who are ‘free’. Under the patriarchy, we are ‘free’ to act according to our gender-role. But this isn’t really freedom. Men, ask yourself: would you feel accepted and respected by society at large if you began routinely wearing a dress? My guess is probably not. And when you aren’t even free to do something as trivial as decide on your own clothing, who knows what other more important freedoms you have unknowingly relinquished. This is why, even if you’re the manliest man around and find the patriarchy quite suitable, you should still be a feminist. Don’t just accept the privilege offered you by the patriarchy. In exchange you will have to sacrifice your own freedom, and stifle that of those around you. Particularly the freedom of women; they don’t even have the option to plunder an ill-gotten privilege in exchange for acting according to their gender-role. 9

And remember: Although the patriarchy allows you to “freely” choose to act like a horrible sexist, there is no reason to place your own freedom above that of any other. Man or woman, we are all people. We know that people desire freedom to be who they truly are, so using your freedom to deny it to others is surely messed up. Instead use it to take down the patriarchy, to have all people considered equal and equally free. Choose the greater freedom. The greater eagle. ▇

KATHLEEN WINTER 12

PART 1: What’s With The Waves Feminism comes in waves. I don’t really know what this means. Waves of cool? Waves come in and then get sucked back out again so maybe this is talking about the two-steps-forward-one-stepbackwards nature of feminist struggle. Maybe feminists are really in tune with lunar phases. I heard that 78% of all feminists are Wiccan. Everyone’s scared of them because they are Wiccans who don’t follow that pagan creed about not harming anyone. But let’s talk about waves. We know that feminism isn’t a monolith. People who identify as feminist can believe completely different things (some of them even think that Pacific Rim was a good film?) but the important thing is that we’re all fighting for the same thing – to eradicate social and economic inequality. There are lots of different possible approaches, and over time we can identify trends in the concerns and ideologies that have dominated feminist discourse. When a notable and divisive shift in that thinking happens, we start talking about waves. Waves are a way of separating and measuring periods of history in the feminist movement. Kind of. Except waves overlap, and ideas from earlier ‘waves’ can still be strongly voiced and believed by feminists existing in later waves. 13

We’re not talking about measuring just time, but about measuring dominant ideology within the movement. And this is always changing. The first wave was basically the suffragette movement. Women demanded the right to vote, own land and receive education – pretty basic requests but also pretty damn important. The second wave was a big one; it went from about the early 60s to the end of the 80s. It was really cool because it widened the struggle’s concerns significantly, demanding things like reproductive rights, real good jobs, equal pay, maybe even the end of homophobia and sexual violence. Second wavers rejected traditional gender roles.

They argued that women are not

here to be looked at - our place is not in the kitchen, there is no requirement for us to wear makeup, or shave our legs, or smile. We can be doctors or lawyers or astronauts and economic freedom is paramount. We have the second wave to thank for most of the rights we enjoy now – but it wasn’t perfect. The movement as a whole was criticised for being racist – most of its leaders were white, middleupper class women, and their lived experiences were often presumed to be the norm. Some prominent second wavers were transphobic. The idea ‘I am woman, hear me roar’ was empowering for many – but excluded many more - and third 14

wavers wanted none of that. The “Sex Wars” started in the late 70s and weren’t quite as exciting as they sound. Many 2nd wave feminists took an anti-pornography stance, but other young feminists in particular felt that stance was puritanical and declared themselves ‘pro-sex’. The heated debates that arose from this conflict are credited as causing the rift that separated 2nd wave feminism from the 3rd wave. We’re in the third wave right now. The experts tell us that this wave began in the 90s, some people say it began in the midlate 80s, whatever. Third-wave feminism is all about intersectionality. We recognise that it’s not enough to fight against only one kind of discrimination. Oppression is multi-faceted and we cannot address gender discrimination without also addressing race, class and sexuality. We don’t want to exclude anyone. We recognise that makeup and high heels and leg shaving are all patriarchal constraints, but you can do these things and still be a feminist. The second wave wanted unity - a core set of beliefs that would unite women and guide their activism. Third wavers want individuality and freedom of personal choice. Essentialism gives way to poststructuralism. You know what I’m talking about. But, see, the second wave isn’t over. Most active feminists nowadays are third wavers, 15

sure, but second wave ideas and voices can still be heard. And let me tell you â&#x20AC;&#x201C; they disagree with a lot of third wave feminism. Because **plot twist** third-wave feminism isnâ&#x20AC;&#x2122;t perfect either.

PART 2: This Wave is Kind of Hard to Surf On People argue that our generation is lazy. We are apathetic and unmotivated, where’s the activism, where are the protests? We have grown up with feminism -feminism as a done deal – and it’s difficult to ignite anger and movement over issues we think are already won. Words like ‘post-feminism’ and ‘ironic sexism’ make us think that gender discrimination is a thing of the past. The second-wavers already won those battles for us, right? We live in a culture that is experiencing very real backlash against feminist ideas, and many young women are afraid of adopting the feminist label. Some honestly believe that we don’t need it. However, women today are not apathetic. Women have never been apathetic and we don’t plan on becoming apathetic any time soon. Welcome to third-wave feminism. In many cases we have equality on paper but not in practice. We are grateful for the work of second-wavers - much of their progress involved lobbying and policy change, and now we have a pile of rights - but discrimination still occurs in the workplace, on the streets and in the home. We want to change social norms just as much as (if not more so than) policy. Our battles can seem abstract and hard to define. We’re not fighting just to 17

change law, but to change outdated worldviews and social behaviours. Consciousness raising is as important as ever, and online activism is a key component of the third wave. The internet has given us a platform for open expression. People can make twitter accounts or blogs and share stories about microaggressions and gendered harassment – and those stories are heard, and understood, and with them we can build a better picture of women’s daily lives and of the need for feminism. These conversations are happening across great distances and many young people in particular are more informed. It’s hard to talk about third wave feminism without talking about tumblr. Tumblr is a ‘microblogging’ website and it is a big deal. Users blog and re-blog, sharing tagged content that others can easily find and share. You can find tumblrs about food or fashion or the Sherlock fandom or – increasingly – about social justice issues, including feminism. Many young people are being introduced to feminism through short, inspiring posts, re-blogged between song lyrics and artistic selfies. And this is a beautiful thing. But the language used and topics highlighted by these posts is important, and reveals much of the nature of third-wave discourse. And let’s be honest – some of it is fucked up. 18

What we see on tumblr and in most 3rd wave discourse is a move away from ‘feminism as a social/political movement’ to ‘feminism as an individual process’. Feminism is being sold to young women as almost a self-help movement. Much of the content online and in print promotes self acceptance and self love. These are reactionary measures to the ongoing objectification of women in media; to literally unachievable physical and behavioural standards that we’re still expected to try and meet. And these reactions are valid and important. Tumblr feminism helped me stop hating my body. That’s a simple and easily overlooked sentence, so I prefer to put it like this: it gave me the ability to spend my time and energy on other things. I used to think about every meal I ate. There was a time in high school when I stopped eating, and that isn’t unusual. Hearing voices that say ‘this is not okay, your body is acceptable, now stop spending your time shaving and write a zine’ – that can be life changing. That aspect of feminism is so important. But it’s only the first step. 3rd wavers have had to fight to separate themselves from the negative stereotypes associated with feminism. Real feminists and their ideas are rarely shown in mainstream media, instead what we see are straw feminists: women who are shown to be irrationally angry, 19

bestial and man hating. When we call ourselves feminists these are the images that many people will first call to mind and use to discredit us. Third wavers accept just as much as we want to be accepted – no one should balk at the idea of feminism, and our insistence on proving that we’re ‘not like that’ can be problematic. One of the clearest examples is our insistence on being ‘femme friendly’. We yell that no – feminists aren’t all hairy, mannish thugs. We can wear makeup and jewellery and short skirts while smashing the patriarchy. We are no longer willing to examine makeup or high heels as oppressive norms, but rather focus on how wearing these things is a “choice”. And I truly believe it is – to a point. I am typing this article in poorly applied nail polish and a dress, but I expect to be fully respected by other feminists and members of the community regardless of my choice of dress.

However,

it is unrealistic to claim that my choice of clothing is a free choice – that it occurs outside of a social context. We still live in a society that places intense pressure on women to conform to a certain standard of appearance, and in many ways I am meeting that standard. We seem to be fighting for our right to look conventionally attractive while still being a feminist, and this is a waste of time and 20

energy. Of course you can wear whatever you want, but 3rd wavers insistence that ‘we’re not like that’ only further normalises women’s insane grooming. Some feminists (including us Bruisers) do have leg and armpit hair, because we’re human beings. This isn’t something we need to apologise for, and neither is pulling on a dress or applying eyeliner. But we do need to question why we do those things, and to allow ourselves to be critical of culture. Conforming to oppressive beauty standards is a choice, but it is not empowering. Demanding respect and equality no matter how you dress – that is. It is this idea of sexualisation as empowerment that has caused a rift between many 2nd and 3rd wavers. Slutwalk – a series of global protests against rape culture in which many women reclaimed the word ‘slut’ – has been massively divisive. Organisers argue that being a slut is a ‘choice’ (there’s that word again), and is neither good nor bad. Many protestors dressed in revealing clothing to illustrate their message – that women should be safe and respected no matter what they wear, or how ‘slutty’ they are. On the surface, this is a good message. But 2nd wavers (and a number of 3rd wavers) continue to disagree with Slutwalk, particularly its organisation and insistence on global 21

reclamation of this abusive and ugly word. Organisers and participants of Slutwalk have been overwhelmingly white – and there’s a clear reason for this. The word ‘slut’ is easier to reclaim from a position of privilege. Slut has been used to punish, shame and silence women of colour and trans* throughout a long, fucked up history, in a way that cis white women have never experienced. For many people the word slut will never be acceptable, let alone empowering. The Slutwalk is often used as an example of third wave feminist action, and while many organisers of the march identify as feminists, dissenters have pointed out the movement’s weak connection to feminism. Slutwalk couldn’t be more about ‘personal choice’. Following criticism, American organisers seceded that reclamation was a personal choice for those who were able – others could call themselves allies. Reclaiming slut is seen as a personally empowering action and no consideration is given to the ramifications for those who are alienated by the word’s use. This is not a strong framework for the next wave of the feminist movement. This is not a strong framework for any kind of movement. Here we see a focus on individual empowerment and success rather than on the deconstruction of the oppressive system. We are so busy assuring 22

ourselves of our individuality, insisting on our right to ‘choose’ to buy into oppressive social norms, that we aren’t working to crush those norms. Sexual freedom is an important part of women’s liberation. The ability to have multiple sexual partners – or none. The choice to dress provocatively – or in a Pokémon onesie (possibly provocative also, idk). Sex positive feminism supports these choices and I am down with that, but I’m not down with ignoring the problems with mainstream pornography in favour of freedom of expression or ‘individual choice’. I’m not down with media and tumblr feminism’s insistence that we can find empowerment by wearing backbreaking heels and winged eyeliner. Many of us in the 3rd wave are favoring personal choice over result-oriented activism,

but I am not

promoting a feminism that imposes more rules and restrictions on men and women’s behaviour. I’m simply asking us to be brave. I’m proud of the young feminists I work with and read about and get messages from on tumblr. Feminism is becoming more mainstream, more talked about, and I am proud of all us of for helping to make that happen. But I want to stop half-assing. Let’s stop trying to disassociate ourselves with ‘those extreme’ 2nd wavers. We have learned a lot from them, but we’ve forgotten a lot too. We’ve forgotten how to 23

pull the finger at popular culture and beauty standards. Weâ&#x20AC;&#x2122;re too afraid to recognise that the personal is political, to refuse to spend time on our bodies and clothes and focus on the things that matter. We are human beings and we have more to offer and more to demand. â&#x2013;&#x2021;

This piece is meant to encapsulate the dichotomy of strength and weakness as a result of domestic abuse. At sixteen years old I was beaten and burned by the boy I was in a relationship with and from that incident, I was able to empower myself while also struggling with a lot of confusing and traumatizing feelings. This piece depicts the timeline of the abuse I endured in a very informative, detached manner. It is meant to serve as a warning as well as evidence that life can continue, because the worst has already occurred. 26

Accompanying the piece is a quote by Leslie Morgan Steiner from her discussion Why Domestic Violence Victims Don’t Leave, which helped me understand a lot of the emotions I was struggling with: “I never once thought of myself as a battered wife. Instead, I was a very strong woman in love with a deeply troubled man and I was the only person on earth who could help him face his demons.” – Olivia Kates, oliviakates.tumblr.com 27

ELLEN WALKER 28

When I was seventeen, I was friends with the members of an amateur rock band. I would describe their style as very similar to System of a Down with a heavy influence of the quiet-to-loud metal formula. I wasn’t a groupie, if that’s what you were thinking. I just happened to be friends with them at the time. It perhaps wasn’t coincidental that they were named after an innuendo for male masturbation. Sexist views were particularly made vocal by the band’s lead singer. He would openly discuss his preference for the physical appearance of passing strangers and reveal intimate details about his current sexual partner to his friends. Overt sexist and racist jokes were his staple banter. 29

His comments greatly bothered me. I hadn’t yet realised that the best tactic would be to no longer waste precious time on these types of “friends”. Nothing bothered me more than this lead singer’s constant refrain, ‘Chicks can’t rock.’ ‘Chicks can’t rock,’ would be used in reply such questions as, ‘have you considered having a girl replace the drummer/guitarist/the musical role your band is looking for?’ They couldn’t bring themselves to let a woman into the band because… ‘Chicks can’t rock.’ I would screw up my fists. I would leave lengthy rants on Facebook posts. I would confront them in person but nothing would convince them that a woman could slay on the guitar, pound the skins or create an incredible bass line. I’m not interested in convincing the now fragmented band anymore. “Chicks” make great musicians but they struggle with a societal stigma against them. Despite some very basic guitar and song writing that I learnt in the past, I don’t consider myself a musician. I don’t even really consider myself a very decent muso. However, I have a passion for music. Female musicians appear prominently in my music library and I truly believe that music would not be the same without women. During the process of writing this article an interesting debate arouse that encapsulates the issues women in the music industry face. This debate began with the high profile ‘open letter’ 30

written by Sinead O’Connor in response to Miley Cyrus’ comparison of the Wrecking Ball music video to Sinead O’Connor’s most well-known track and video Nothing Compares 2 U. Cyrus claimed that her extreme close up in the Wrecking Ball video clip was inspired by O’Connor’s similar pose in the Nothing Compares 2 U clip. O’Connor released an open letter to the media which stated that she didn’t want her music to be affiliated with Miley’s recent career. As you will know, unless you have found yourself a cosy rock to sleep under, Miley has caused a lot of hype in the media for her recent VMAs performance and her subsequent video clip for Wrecking Ball. In this clip she appears nude on a strategically placed wrecking ball hanging from the ceiling. These two events are only the tip of the iceberg in the wake of Cyrus’ reinvention of her image. Feminists, media personalities, celebrities and the general public alike have criticised Cyrus for various issues which arose from her recent performances. Her appropriation of black culture has been criticised along with her lack of censorship in front of her predominantly young audience. Yet, her stage costumes or use of nudity in these performances has gained the most attention. O’Connor’s response was particularly concerned with the latter. In her letter, she informed Miley Cyrus that ‘Nothing but harm will come in the long run, from allowing yourself to be exploited, and it is absolutely NOT 31

in ANY way an empowerment of yourself or any other young women, for you to send across the message that you are to be valued (even by you) more for your sexual appeal than your obvious talent. I am happy to hear I am somewhat of a role model for you and I hope that because of that you will pay close attention to what I am telling you.’1 Following O’Connor’s letter, writing responses to Cyrus’s songs has become exceedingly popular amongst other celebs. But one particular response to O’Connor’s letter is of interest to the theme of stigma against female musicians; Amanda Palmer responded in another ‘open letter’, this time in response to O’Connor. Palmer, whose body has also recently been under attack by critics, analysed O’Connor’s motivations in writing a letter to Miley Cyrus. Palmer’s letter reads, ‘Sex sells. We all know it. Miley knows it better than anyone: swinging naked on a big metal ball simply gets you more hits than swinging on a big metal ball wearing clothes. We’re mammals. LOOK BOOBS! And even more tantalizing: LOOK HANNAH MONTANA BOOBS! But none of this means that Miley is following anyone else’s script. In fact, what I see is Miley desperately trying to write her own script; truly trying to be taken seriously (even if it’s in a nakedly playful way) by the standards of her own peers.’2 Palmer disagrees with O’Connor’s tactic of referencing Miley’s nudity as proof of her 32

exploitation in the music industry. Instead, Palmer claims that Miley intended to make way for women to reclaim their own bodies and to present them as they choose to. Although we will never really know Miley’s intentions for sure, Palmer raises an excellent point about the way we perceive female musicians’ bodies. Why has Miley’s nudity become the target of so much criticism?

These criticisms

are the result of ingrained prejudices about women. Female musicians are subject to the same treatment which women’s bodies receive in general. However, it’s to a greater extent due to their high profile. As a result of the oppression of female sexuality women are often criticised for what they wear, particularly if it is considered “revealing.” Cyrus’s overt sexualisation of her public image challenges the societal stigma and therefore is met with an abundance of criticism from anyone with an internet connection. Women’s bodies are a battle ground for gender equality. Palmer strengthens her argument about the struggles of female musicians with the following quote, ‘For the most part, they really don’t seem to care very much about the real issues at hand and we’re all just click-bait. What are the real issues…? You and I know it – being a female musician/rockstar/whatever is a pretty fucking impossible and a mind-bendingly frustrating job. Our male counterparts are given a way wider playing 33

field than we are.â&#x20AC;&#x2122;3 Just to name a few of the many male musicians who publicly appeared nude and received a positive response, the nudity of John Lennon, The Red Hot Chilli Peppers and Blink 182 were predominantly met with reactions of humour or solidarity. Chicks most certainly can rock. There is a lengthy womenâ&#x20AC;&#x2122;s musical history in which musicians are not only numerous but also pave the way for the future of music. Bjork, for example, is a truly exceptional musician. She defies the boundaries of musical genres and creates music that truly evokes emotion. Kim Deal was the bassist of the Pixies, but she also created a great band with her sister called the Breeders. No Doubt, which has a female lead singer, was one of the bands which initially got me into music. I have also recently added the likes of Austra and Haim to my music collection. Although these contemporary musical acts have been reviewed poorly by some critics, I believe these emerging artists are worth a listen, or two. This is because reviewers also present a negative view of female musicians that we need to be weary of as listeners. As in any creative arena, forbearing female musicians have triumphed and are showing no sign of stopping. Yet, the stigma they face is still very real and the efforts of feminism are still relevant to the music world. â&#x2013;&#x2021;

Sinead O’Connor, The Guardian ‘Sinead O’Connor’s

open letter to Miley Cyrus,’ 3 October 2013, http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/oct/03/sineado-connor-open-letter-miley-cyrus, Accessed on: 28 October 2013. 2

Amanda Palmer, ‘An open letter to Sinead O’Connor,

RE: Miley Cyrus,’ 3 October 2013, http://amandapalmer.net/blog/20131003/, Accessed on: 28 October 2013. 3

Ibid.

MARILYN NORTHCOTTE and KATHLEEN WINTER 36

Marilyn rocks up half an hour late on a collapsible bicycle wearing an orange dress with a matching helmet. I immediately know that sheâ&#x20AC;&#x2122;s the one. The one that Iâ&#x20AC;&#x2122;m here to talk feminism with. Turns out 2nd wave feminists still exist and I found one (Marilyn) and asked the hard questions. Here are the answers.

Would you call yourself a feminist?

I would absolutely call myself a feminist. Always. I was born in the 60s, so a lot of that 2nd wave stuff, that reform kind of feminism that went on, was a little ahead of me. When Betty Friedan published the Feminine Mystique I was 2. I’m on the tail end of the baby boomers but I’m not exactly a gen-Xer. Although having said that, I’ve always had a really strong sense of self and a strong sense of what women can do, and I guess if that’s what makes you feminist then I would be one. Subsequently I’ve gone on and had female children, daughters, so I’m pretty keen on things going on an upward scale that way.

Haha, yeah.

So that kind of reform feminism that was really based in the rights movement, I get a lot of that, but that happened when I was quite young. I guess it was that kind’ve post-war social movement stuff that was going on all around us. Later on, for me, more influential was what went on in the 80s as opposed to the 60s and 70s – I was still too young. Had some definite ideas, like Charlie’s Angels who were kickass young women doing typically non-women kind’ve work and being able to be on TV and be a rolemodel – yeah, a good example of nontraditional activity, I guess. When I was 19 I got a job on the basis of a non-traditional role for women. I worked at a construction site and I got to dig and push just as much as the guys and other women I was working with. So that was a really good definer, that happened when I was still quite young and left an impression on me. That was where I started to pick it up, but during the 80s was when differences started to come up, different feminism started to come into play as a later part of the 2nd wave, and that’s probably more what I’m aligned to.

People say “this is when the 2nd wave ended and the 3rd started”, but there isn’t really a clear date.

I don’t think so.

But people seem to say end of the 80s to mid-90s was that turnover period, like by the late 90s we’re definitely into 3rd wave, I think.

I would say, yeah.

So it’s interesting that your main activity and political awareness would’ve happened during that transition.

Most likely, yeah.

It was getting away from reform politics and

rights-based – which were huge gains for feminism – the equal rights movement and so on. And of course when you get to 3rd wave stuff – what do I think about 3rd wave feminism? I think you’re really lucky to have grown up in a time where it’s a given. It’s like fluoride, it’s there. KW

You wouldn’t define yourself as a 2nd waver then, would you?

I don’t know, yeah, I guess. Sort’ve kind’ve maybe not, yeah.

What would you say are defining features of the 2nd wave?

That early stuff was, I guess, the rights-based movement, the equal rights, the liberal reforms politics, getting stuff done, working together as a collective. One of the things that stands out from 2nd wave feminism the most for me is collectivity. And of course the group fragmented, didn’t it? It broke off into all kinds of different groups because one voice was potentially being heard louder – things were framed in the perspective of a white, European, middle-class woman in the United States. And, y’know, things changed from there, basically.

Where did you grow up? Are you from the states?

I’m from Canada, actually.

I’m sorry. I’m sure that’s very insulting.

Not at all. I grew up in Canada in a really little place – I went to the university in the early 80s, then I moved to what was a big city for me. I lived in Toronto in that really formative period of my early 20s. I belonged to a women’s cycling group. Cycling is something that’s

very dear to me, it’s what I make my living at, it’s my livelihood. I’ve always done it – and women were never particularly catered for when I started. Bikes were always too big and so on. So we used our collective force to get the bike shops to sit up and take notice that they might have clientele based in women riding. Cycling has always been incredibly sexist.

When did you come to NZ?

1990. Lived in Wellington. Always.

How would you give a basic definition of the 3rd wave? I know that’s hard because the 3rd wave is still ongoing.

I’m less certain about 3rd wave feminism. I know it’s different. You tell me. It’s hard to define. I see very little of what I would constitute as typical 2nd wave feminism in the 3rd wave. It’s not so much that it’s lacking, it’s different, I don’t know that it needs to be better or worse. It is what it is. If I had to say what it is lacking – political clout maybe, or collectivity? I think it’s based on individuality. It’s context-specific. There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s great. But it’s hard to form a political force with a bunch of individuals, isn’t it? There has to be some sort of collectivity somehow, that joins us all together. That’s how it’s different for me.

I think that’s definitely the main trend i’ve noticed, that the collectivity of the 2nd wave made a lot of political progress but alienated a lot of people.

I agree.

Now the 3rd wave has turned to hyper-individualisation.

That’s a good term.

Thanks, I just made it up right then it’s not even a word. But yeah, because of that it seems it’s harder to have a political movement.

Is it a political movement any longer?

Exactly, that’s a very good question. There’s also the question of – does it need to be a political movement as much as it was? Just as an idea. The 2nd wave did make a lot of progress like you were saying. We now have – on paper – a lot of equal rights. We’re not meant to be discriminated against in employment, for example, and we’re allowed to go for any job that we want, but that doesn’t actually seem to play out in practice. So for me it seems like a lot of 3rd wave struggles aren’t so much political anymore, they’re more cultural. How do you feel about that?

Again I guess my question would be, how does that continue to be a movement? It’s not a critique, it’s a question – it’s an “okay you guys this is looking really great, but how do we… is there a momentum? Do we need a momentum?” That’s a good question you’ve asked, does it need to be political any longer. I guess we need to take a look around, to look at the statistics of domestic violence, of rape. We all just participated in a rape march last week. Does it need to be political? I think there might be some room for that still, and it was great to see. It was great to see young women standing up and I was happy to have them speak for me, absolutely, very articulate, very well spoken and good organisation and so on. So I think there’s that room for political voice still.

On the topic of that particular march, I think sexual violence – “sexual” violence – has definitely been one of the main focuses of the 3rd wave, but it’s interesting that the way we’ve addressed that has been criticised by many 2nd wavers. Are you familiar with ‘Slut Walk’?

I am.

I know that that has been massively divisive for a lot of feminists. It’s mostly extremely young feminists who are proponents of slut walk but older feminists kind’ve can’t believe that it’s happening.

Do you have a view on it?

I think that brings up the question of empowerment, and embracing your sexuality and putting it out there to be proud of. Claiming it, I guess. I’m not against slut walk, I don’t like the idea of victim blaming, I think we get to express ourselves for who we are and that’s fine. I don’t have an issue with that, what I have an issue with is what comes out of empowerment. Like, are you familiar with uh, I can’t remember what it’s called but it’s essentially film crews going to nightclubs and finding young women that will flash their breasts and stuff –

Yeah. I’ve heard of a couple of those, it’s appalling. And then they put it online.

– and then they put it online. I’m wondering what part of that is empowering. Guys end up getting what they want, it’s objectifying women anyway, I don’t know where I can claim power from that. I must admit I struggle with that one.

What do you think are or should be the main concerns for feminism right now?

I guess I have to reiterate that same notion of sexual violence, domestic and family violence, and you know, getting out of a bad situation – I think those are still really valid concerns for lots of women everywhere. Those are the kinds of things that still need some work at the ground level. And it’s not to be preachy or anything like that, but as long as you read about it in the papers and hear about it in the news… and there’re a lot of good people in this country doing a lot of good work in those areas, I just think that that’s still a growing concern. Women need to be able to get away from bad relationships and not be dependent on men. And not – by the same token – be labelled as dole bashers and dole bludgers.

There are the big questions that no one has answers for that I

want to ask. Even though collectivism is something that surely any movement needs, how can we recapture that without making the same mistakes that the 2nd wave made? Which is a harsh way to put it I think, but there’s been so much criticism of the exclusive nature of the 2nd wave.

Well, that’s that way it seemed. I still can’t deny what came out of that. So that gave rise to a lot of… I mean, those fracture or fragments or whatever you want to call it, gave rise to a whole lot of voices and I think that’s still gotta be acknowledged. It’s the same with first wave; we wouldn’t have had the vote, for example, if we didn’t have 1st wave feminism recognising what disenfranchisement meant. You couldn’t get any political gain at all unless you had a say by way of vote. So I guess maybe I’d like 3rd wavers not to be so harsh on 2nd wavers. I certainly don’t take it personally – I sound like I do.

Haha.

But I think that it has evolved and this is where we are now.

Do you think it’s been an upward progression?

I’m not entirely sure actually, and that goes back to that whole reclaiming of the sexual which I agree with in principle but –

(Waitress notices Marilyn’s collapsible bike) Sorry to interrupt, this is amazing.

MN w

Oh, thank you. So you can just like ride it into town then pop it on the bus and take it home?

MN w MN

Yup, yup. That’s great. How much does one of those put you back? Um, it’s probably a couple thousand dollars.

A couple thousand dollars? Whoa, I have nowhere near that much money.

Yeah. Yeah, it’s a serious investment. And I’ve had it for some time now.

Oh, it’s so cool. Thank you.

… do you get that a lot?

Yeah, I do. And that’s another thing – I can ride a $2000 bike. And I’m not apologetic for that, it is what it is, everybody has their own story. Um, I forgot what I was talking about.

Yeah, I think it was something really awesome.

That hardly ever happens.

Um, you were starting to talk about the reclaiming of the sexual –

Oh yeah, and I like the sexual identity part. I like the different expression of gender – this is all great. Um, ripping your top off in public? Not so fond of that. And it leads me to think about what is being expressed by that? I don’t know. I guess actually, Kathleen, I just don’t understand it. But I’d say that goes towards the 2nd and not the 3rd in me. Maybe a little prudish? I don’t know.

It’s interesting because the female body is so sexualised. Even though men can take their shirt off all the time – and I think women legally can be topless in public in New Zealand – but any time a women does take her shirt off it’s seen as a sexual act.

That’s a really good point.

So I understand why you could be prudish about it. Do you think it is just a lack of understanding of their motivation that makes you balk at it?

I guess so. And I really like the point that you just brought up that the female body is so sexualised, and I guess if I felt about it in any way outside of the sexual nature then yeah, maybe it might be different.

But I get the feeling it’s ah… yeah, it does induce the yuck factor in me.

Yeah, it’s kind’ve this idea of people using their bodies to fight the way that they’re being defined by their bodies. It’ s using sexuality to fight women’s sexualisation, which is tough –

Okay, yeah, that’s deeper than my thought but yeah, I get that.

I guess it hasn’t been going on for long, so it’s hard to know if it can work or if it will work. It’s a bit of a topic change but relevant to what you were saying: the porn industry. Do you have any particular feelings on this? Because I think it’s something else that’s been quite divisive.

Very divisive, from a 2nd wave point of view, I think. I wouldn’t say I’m a head-in-the-sand kind of person, but it’s something I wouldn’t say I know a lot about. My first instinct is to say I don’t know if women are being forced into those roles, if that’s all there’s left to do. I’m not sure actually. I don’t like it and again, I don’t know that it’s an expression of empowerment.

Just not really a fan?

Yeah, for a whole bunch of reasons, and one of them is that I don’t see it as a very powerful situation for a woman to be in. But I mean, I don’t know the ins-and-outs of that. So I don’t know.

Yeah, when you say that – “the position that she’s in” – do you mean just being shown having sex, or do you mean specifically the kind’ve scenarios that porn tends to depict?

Um, just to have to do that kind of work for money.

Okay. That’s interesting because I think also sex workers – that’s another topic which has been divisive.

Yeah, yeah it has. Yup.

The 2nd wave definitely fought to free women from sexual slavery

in a lot of countries and that was one of their big concerns, but the 3rd wave focuses a lot on rights and freedoms for sexual workers who choose that as a career.

Yup, I get that and I agree entirely. The way I feel about that is that… If there’s sexual work around – to be had or undertaken, and that’s the fact of the matter, that it is – then I would want it to be as safe for women as possible, of course. Again, I don’t know a whole lot about sex workers and the sex industry but you would want there to be as good conditions for working as could be. Whatever that means.

Rather than illegalising it? Or do you think that would be a preferred measure?

Illegalising it? I don’t think that’s at all helpful.

… it can look like women telling other women how to live their lives.

Yeah, and there’s always that risk I’m sure. I think that was certainly central in the 2nd wave, with white middle-class American women telling other women who weren’t like them what they should do or how they should be – that’s certainly how it was perceived.

Yup.

And the point of view of women wasn’t from one particular view point at all, was it? It’s from many different points of view. So yeah, nobody wants… I’m going to say something really vague like, “I don’t think that’s helpful.”

Haha.

But I wish I could give you a much more –

Yeah, can you answer the problems with feminism for me? Haha. Do you think the 3rd wave’s insistence on having a whole range of viewpoints and individual experience – do you think it is actually

a helpful progression in the movement?

Well, I’m not certain what the movement is trying to achieve. What are young women working toward these days? What are your objectives for 3rd wave feminism?

Well, that’s hard because it isn’t a collective movement anymore, I suppose. It seems like people are often grouped together by particular struggles rather than being one group who fight together against all of them. There’s definitely been more of a focus on culture and media representation of women – even though there are political battles of course still being fought, there’s this idea that we’ve already kind’ve won those, even though in a lot of cases that’s actually not true. And a lot of 2nd waver’s work is slowly being undone, like in the states with abortion law and terrifying stuff like that.

The might of the right.

Yeah. We have words now like ‘post-feminism’ and ‘ironic sexism’ that suggest that sexism is in the past.

So language plays a big role now, doesn’t it?

Yeah, I think so. A lot of our everyday feminism tends to be asking our friends not to use the word ‘bitch’ anymore, very simple stuff about culturally viewing women as equal human beings. But that can easily seem petty in the wider scheme of things.

I don’t know, is it a time and place thing? Is it that those big gains have already been made so you don’t have the same kind’ve platform anymore? And so, it’s not going to be the same. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it being different, I just don’t want to see things – like you say, like the change in the abortion law – you don’t want to see things happening that will set the movement back. I think it’s wonderful that you’re born into and you grow up ‘in feminism’ – “I’m

not a feminist, but…” and you’re like, “Oh yeah, but you’re willing to tolerate such and such?” and they say “No.” And for a while there… I don’t think feminism is such a dirty word as it used to be. I think it’s coming back into fashion. “Are you a feminist?” “No.” “Well, do you want the same things for your girl children as your boy children?” “Well, yeah.” I guess people do define themselves by what they’re not.

Why do you think there is still that constant need for people to distance themselves from the feminist movement?

I’m not sure actually, because I’ve never had that. Maybe it’s – all our lives we’ve been encouraged to keep our political lives, our political preferences a secret. You know – the ballot is secret, we keep those kinds of things to ourselves. Maybe it’s a similar thing. I’ve always been fairly stridently political, or have made my views known anyway, and I’ve always been feminist and am always happy to be one.

Have you ever experienced any backlash for expressing those views or defining yourself as a feminist?

I’m not sure it’s backlash, but you get the snide remarks or the odd comment. “I don’t think governments should do this or do that” and I ask, “Yeah, but what about your mom, your sisters, your daughters, would you want the same for them?” I guess if you want to situate it at a personal level then it’s easier to shut people down, because they’d be reluctant to say, “No I don’t want that for my girl children, but I want it for my boy children.” So I guess that’s a little easier.

My final question is – how can 2nd and 3rd wave feminists work together? There’s an idea that the 2nd wave is over so those people are no longer relevant, now it’s the 3rd wavers time to shine, but I don’t think that’s true. And I think it’s a bizarre idea that older feminists – or even just older women in the community – are no longer relevant or no longer have a say. I think especially as leaders for young feminists their voices have to be heard, but

now we have conflicting ideas.

Yes, and I think old feminists need to let young feminists speak. It is different now and I don’t think it’s helpful – and it’s not right – for us to sit back and comment on your situation. I don’t know what it’s like to be a young woman these days, I wouldn’t have a clue (well, I have some clue because I have daughters), but I really really don’t know in the age of the internet and the web and technology and how much the world has changed, you know. I don’t want to sound wishy-washy by saying I can’t comment but I really can’t comment.

Yeah, it’s a big question.

I think young women need to speak and go after what it is they want – but I guess I don’t understand what that is.

Haha. With your daughters, raising them, have you in any particular way tried to instil a feminist spirit in them?

All the time.

Do you think it worked?

More so with probably the older young woman than – I mean, I don’t know, I don’t imagine my younger young woman would take any crap, either.

But she probably wouldn’t adopt the label of feminist?

I doubt it. I’m not even sure, it sounds odd not to know. But she’s of that genre of young women that have been born into it. They get to do what they get to do and they can’t imagine not being able to. Is it a term that’s outlived its use? I think not, but…

Yeah. I think if it had it would only be because it’s been tainted. People don’t seem to actually comprehend what feminism is, which is why young women say “I’m not feminist, but… ” – which if you are a feminist seems like the most ridiculous thing to say,

it’s like saying “I don’t want equal rights, but I would like equal rights.” Which is very confusing.

Maybe we’re just not into labelling anymore.

Which isn’t very helpful.

Well, it’s how others see you but it’s not how you see yourself. If I look around and I see a lot of young women I think yeah, yeah there’s feminism all around me, but they don’t see themselves that way. And that’s a disconnect, being labelled by someone else. I mean, people will say “You’re a hardcore cyclist.” and I say, “Well, I ride a lot.” and they say, “Yeah, but you ride your bike all the time.” It’s true, I do ride my bike all the time. Am I a hardcore cyclist? Mmmm, it’s probably not how I see myself. So I guess it’s resisting assuming labels that other people put on you – categories. There are a couple of women at the university you could talk to who could give you an academic take on things.

Do you think academic takes are helpful?

I think a lot of academia came out of 2nd wave feminism and gave rise to women’s studies and gender studies which –

Which have now been closed down at Vic, I think.

Yeah, it sure has. Yeah. An academic take on things, I don’t know. I guess it’s useful for framing points of difference. What is more useful than academic? Real-world examples, however that gets expressed. Getting together with a whole lot of other people on Saturday for that rape protest was a great way to see a lot of expression across a huge range of women – young women, older women, young men, old men – yeah, it’s great. But is it feminist?

Sorry, I meant to stop a long time ago but I keep asking questions. About that march in particular – I think it was great, at first I was a little unsure because I wasn’t sure of its aims. But on the actual day they had some very clear steps that they wanted to take so

I thought it was very good. If the collective nature of 2nd wave feminism is no longer apparent or working, and the movement seems to be focused more on individual struggles, is the word ‘feminism’ actually useful? Or, is having a collective like that is still relevant? I think it is, but is it even apparent anymore?

MN w KW w MN w

Well, according to that it may not be. Hot chocolate? No sorry. Sorry. Well, I guess it’s not really apparent, is it? Sorry, it was 25 not 24, haha.

Haha.

I don’t know, I didn’t presume I was going to a feminist march, I presumed I was going to a march against rape culture as a feminist.

So you didn’t presume it was feminist in any way? Would it matter to you if it was?

No, not at all, of course not. I liked it. It warmed the cockles of my heart to see the organisation behind it and the statement and the speakers and so on, oh yeah, ticked all the boxes. And that kind of collective action – that’s old-school. I guess that’s what you would call it. Haha.

Haha. Yeah, hardcore.

Maybe hardcore, yeah. That was a really affirmative statement wasn’t it? We don’t like this, we want something done about it, we’re going to take to the streets and make a statement about it. ▇

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