Deposition of Tom Tousis vol 1

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF WISCONSIN ***********************

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THOMAS J. HOLMES, et al.

Plaintiffs,

vs.

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Case No. 14-CV-208

JOHN DICKERT, et al., Defendants.

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DEPOSITION OF TOM C. TOUSIS VOLUME I TAKEN AT: MARK D. RICHARDS, S.C. LOCATED AT: 209 Eighth Street Racine, Wisconsin April 30, 2015 9:31 a.m. to 2:32 p.m.

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REPORTED BY ANNICK M. JAQUET REGISTERED MERIT REPORTER CERTIFIED REALTIME REPORTER Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 800-567-8658 Case 2:14-cv-00208-JPS Filed 09/28/15 Page 1 of 107 Document 235-3 Exhibit 39

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A P P E A R A N C E S: KOHLER & HART, S.C., by Mr. Dan H. Sanders 735 North Water Street #1212 Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202-4105 (414) 271-9595 dhsanders@kohlerandhart.com Appearing on behalf of the Plaintiffs.

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HOSTAK, HENZL & BICHLER, S.C., by Mr. Thomas M. Devine 840 Lake Avenue #300 Racine, Wisconsin 53403-1566 (262) 632-7541 tdevine@hhb.com Appearing on behalf of Defendant Doug Nicholson.

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MARK D. RICHARDS, S.C., by Mr. Mark D. Richards 209 Eighth Street Racine, Wisconsin 53403-1508 (262) 632-2200 mdr@racinedefense.com Appearing on behalf of Tom Tousis.

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MEISSNER, TIERNEY, FISHER & NICHOLS, S.C., by Mr. William T. Stuart 111 East Kilbourn Avenue, # 1900 Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202-6622 (414) 273-1300 bct@mtfn.com Appearing on behalf of the Defendants, except Doug Nicholson.

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ALSO PRESENT: Scott Letteney 22 23 24 25

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Exhibit

Description Page Marked/Identified

Exhibit 211 ... Aerial photo of 2100 Douglas Avenue ................ 54 / 55 Exhibit 212 ... Subpoena ............ 139 / 140 Exhibit 213 ... Correspondence from Attorney Richards ............ 139 / 145 Exhibit 214 ... Second subpoena ..... 139 / 150 Exhibit 215 ... July 11, 2008 letter 179 / 180 Exhibit 216 ... Summary of proposal of Schaefer property ............ 179 / 181 Exhibit 217 ... Resolution .......... 179 / 183 Exhibit 218 ... Request for extension to option p. 179 / 186 Exhibit 219 ... Request for proposals from Racine RDA .......... 189 / 189 Exhibit 220 ... 9/11/2009 letter .... 195 / 195 Exhibit 221 ... 9/15/09 common council meeting minutes ............. 201 / 201 Exhibit 222 ... Letter to Tom Tousis 202 / 202

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INDEX Examination by:

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EXHIBITS

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Mr. Sanders ................................. 7 Mr. Devine ................................ 115 Mr. Stuart ................................ 139

EXHIBITS Exhibit

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Description Page Marked/Identified

Exhibit 223 ... Document from city planning commission .......... 204 / 204 Exhibit 224 ... E-mail .............. 204 / 206 Exhibit 225 ... 10/2/09 e-mail ...... 208 / 208

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Exhibit 226 ... Projected costs ..... 209 / 210 Exhibit 227 ... 10/5/09 e-mail ...... 211 / 211

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Exhibit 228 ... 2 pages of literature 217 / 217 Exhibit 229 ... Document relating to proposal of the purchase of the Washington Avenue property p. 220 / 220 Exhibit 230 ... 12/14/09 meeting minutes p. 230 / 231 Exhibit 231 ... Document reflecting Item 09145A p. 220 / 229 Exhibit 232 ... Formal resolution ... 230 / 232

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Exhibit 233 ... 1/5/10 meeting minutes p. 230 / 232 Exhibit 234 ... Option for West Racine property between Tom Tousis and the RDA p. 230 / 232

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EXHIBITS Exhibit

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Description Page Marked/Identified

Exhibit 235 ... Request for extension p. 239 / 239 Exhibit 236 ... Request for extension p. 242 / 242 Exhibit 237 ... Drawing dated 11/17 of 2006 and 2012 ................ 251 / 251 Exhibit 238 ... Revised drawings .... 254 / 254

(The original exhibits were retained by Attorney Stuart.)

(The original transcript was delivered to Attorney Sanders.)

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1 don't try to guess, just say I don't recall, I 2 don't remember. If you need to take an 3 opportunity to talk to your lawyer let me know 4 regarding any questions that are raised.

5 The -- you'll hear probably a number of 6 times where the attorneys in the room will 7 object to questions that are being made.

8 They'll object, they'll give their reasons why, 9 but then you're still required to answer them 10 unless your attorney says otherwise or there's 11 some other fairly unique situation.

12 What I tend to do is I tend to take breaks 13 on the hour to give everybody a chance to just 14 kind of stretch and use the restroom, something 15 to drink, give the court reporter a few 16 minutes, take five, ten minutes and then come 17 back and go. I'm not quite sure how long it 18 will go today. I don't foresee that my end of 19 it is going to be that long, but I can't 20 obviously speak for Mr. Devine or for 21 Mr. Stuart, okay? Do you have any questions of 22 me before we begin?

23 A No. 24 Q All right. Why don't we start, why don't you 25 state your name and spell your name for the

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1 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 2 TOM C. TOUSIS, called as a witness 3 herein, having been first duly sworn on oath, 4 was examined and testifies as follows: 5 lEXAMINATION 6

BY MR. SANDERS: 7 Q All right. Mr. Tousis, my name is Dan Sanders.

8 I'm an attorney at Kohler and Hart in 9 Milwaukee. My firm represents the plaintiffs 10 in this matter that we've noticed you to be 11 deposed for today. The -- the title of the 12 case we've been naming it or calling it Holmes, 13 et al. versus Dickert, et al. The case number 14 is 2014-CV-208 in the Eastern District of 15 Wisconsin. It's federal court based in 16 Milwaukee.

17 We're here to take your deposition today.

18 I just want to tell you a few ground rules at 19 least that I have during my part of the 20 session. I'm going to be asking you a series 21 of questions about your knowledge of the, at 22 least the individuals involved in the case. If 23 you don't understand a question please tell me 24 that you don't understand a question and I'll 25 try to rephrase it. If you don't recall events

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reporter.

Tom, T-O-M, C, Tousis, T-O-U-S-I-S. And is Tom your birth name?

Correct.

Excuse me?

Correct.

Okay. Where were you born?

Arlington Heights, Illinois.

When did you move to Racine?

Small child, infant, actually.

Do you know what year?

'78, '79.

And what's your current address?

5 Redwood Court.

5 what?

Redwood Court, but I'm not receiving mail there yet so please don't forward the mail there.

Okay. What's your mailing address?

229 Emerald.

Okay. Racine, Wisconsin?

Correct.

All right. When you moved here from Arlington Heights did you come here with your family?

Correct.

Did you go to high school here?

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Correct.

What years?

Graduated in '96 from Horlick.

And did you go to university anywhere?

I went to DePaul University in Chicago.

What years to what year?

I did a year and a half there, so '97, '98 probably.

Okay. Did you receive a degree at all?

No. Have you ever received a post-high school degree?

No. What class, types of classes did you take at DePaul when you were there?

International business.

Okay. After you left college what did you do?

Well, I never -- I worked for the family business.

Up here in Racine?

Correct.

What was the family business at the time you were in high school and college?

Restaurant.

Where at?

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2100 Douglas Avenue, where my father's convenience store is located now.

The what is?

Our family convenience store is, gas station.

What was the name of the restaurant?

At the time Athen's, I believe, A-T-H-E-N-S, 'S. And that was the business that your family was operating when you were in high school and college?

Correct.

Did the family operate a business before that?

Ever since, well before.

When you were in Racine?

Yes. It was Andrea's Restaurant.

Andrea's Restaurant, where is that located?

Kitty-corner from the courthouse.

Downtown Racine?

Uh-huh.

How long did your family operate that restaurant?

Probably until the mid '90s. That was operated by my uncle. My father was out at '87, I believe, so from '77 to '87.

Okay. And when did your father open Athen's on

Douglas?

Had to be approximately '89, I believe, '90, '89.

Okay. And was Athen's just a restaurant?

That was a typical Greek diner.

Did it have a liquor license?

Correct.

What kind of liquor license?

I don't know this for sure, but I remember seeing liquor bottles, so I would imagine a full Class B. Okay. What do you perceive a full Class B to be in the City of Racine?

What do you mean by what do I perceive?

What's your perception, what's your idea of what a Class B liquor license allows you to do in the City of Racine?

Sell liquor and I guess packaged goods, drinks.

Beer, wine?

Beer and wine.

All right. Now, after the Athen's restaurant did your family open another business?

At the same location it was Gibson's.

Was that another restaurant?

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like 21 or 20 years old at the time, so I don't -- years -Okay. What kind of restaurant was Gibson's?

I was a supper club type of.

And was it -- was Gibson's in addition to Athen's or on the same spot?

The same site.

Okay. So you changed the name, changed the format?

Uh-huh.

All right. And currently you -- you own what establishment?

My father owns -Okay.

-- at the same location it would be Better Day BP. Okay. And do you assist him with Better Day BP? Yes, I do.

Do you run the place at this point?

My cousin and I share managerial duties.

And when did Better Day BP open?

End of '07, end of '07, November, December, right around there.

And where is that Better Day BP located?

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2100 Douglas Avenue, same location.

Same location as Athen's and -Correct.

-- Gibson?

Uh-huh.

Did you destroy the buildings and -Yeah.

-- rebuild?

Yeah. It got torn down.

Anything else on the site besides Better Day BP -Small restaurant.

-- in terms of businesses?

A small restaurant.

What's it called?

Gus's Gyros.

When did that open?

'09, maybe, spring of '09, summer of '09.

Now, did you receive a liquor license for Better Day BP to sell alcohol out of the gas station?

It's one license for the whole property, for both the restaurant and the store.

Okay. When did you receive, first receive the license?

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We've had a license, we had -- we had a license when we opened up and I don't remember if it was an A or a B at the time, but around the time that we opened Gus's there was a transition to a different, different type of licensing and we might have got the B at the time we opened Gus's because of the restaurant.

Okay. So you likely didn't have the B when it was just the gas station?

I don't believe we did. I really don't -- I don't -- I don't, you know, exactly remember.

Okay. But at least by the time you opened Gus's you obtained a Class B liquor license?

Right.

And that covered not only the restaurant but also the gas station.

Right.

All right. Now, have you ever gotten involved in politics in the City of Racine?

A little bit, yeah.

When did you begin -- when did you first get involved in politics in the City of Racine?

I wouldn't say the city -- city too much, but more local county, but I don't know, maybe '08, '09, '07.

Okay.

I wasn't really, I wouldn't consider it involvement anymore. Local politicians that we know asking for help, so...

Okay. And asking for help in what way?

Campaign contributions, that type of request from the politician.

Now, let me back up a little bit. Prior to -prior to this deposition today did you talk to anybody in preparation for the deposition?

No. Did you talk to your attorney?

My attorney.

And did you review any documents in preparation for today's deposition?

No. Now, you say campaign contributions to local politicians.

Uh-huh.

What type of contributions?

Just for their reelection or -- or an election.

Were these contributions that you made on behalf of yourself individually or for the business?

No, they were -- the contributions are always Page 17

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on behalf of you personally, and they might influence, you know, decision-making for businesses, but...

Explain that a little bit. Why do you say that?

Certain politicians might have a leniency towards a type of business. Some people are pro-natural resources, some people are pro-EPA, so it depends on what you're talking about.

So were you using your campaign contributions to at least incur favor with the politicians?

MR. STUART: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: I don't believe we were trying to get favor, but maybe, I don't know the right way to say this, you're supporting the person that -- that potentially support you, let's put it that way.

BY MR. SANDERS: Okay. Now, when you transitioned, when your -Or -- or hurt you.

Okay. When you transitioned from -- or whose idea, who came up with the idea to go from the restaurant business to the -- to the gas station?

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It wasn't really -- we were approached by an oil company.

Your location was?

Yes. What oil company?

At the time I believe it was Marathon, actually.

What was the proposition from Marathon?

It was a very brief, they were, the site guys were out looking for sites for Speedways and we just talked to them and learned a little bit about what made for a good site.

All right. Were there other gas stations in the area?

Oh, there's plenty.

How about in relation to -- to the site at 2100 Douglas Avenue?

Probably the highest concentration in the city within a mile and a half.

All right. Is 2100 Douglas Avenue, is that in the middle of a street or at an intersection?

It's an intersection.

All right. There any other gas stations on the intersection?

Directly across, directly to the east.

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Marty Pingle would be the father.

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Did they have the gas station across the

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street, east across the street when you and

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your family operated the two diners?

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They did.

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project?

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No.

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So at the time that you were thinking about transitioning the gas station directly to the east were there other gas stations in the immediate vicinity?

Directly to the east, a few more blocks on Main Street, I mean, they're scattered all over the area there.

Okay. What was the gas station directly to the east?

The Citgo, was it Mobil at the time? It's a Citgo station now. I don't remember if it was a Mobil at the time. It probably was already a Citgo.

Do you know the owners?

It was Mitch and -- Mitch Wemmert and Marty Pingle.

Do you know how to spell Mitch's last name?

Wemmert, probably W-E-M-M-E-R-T. And who was the second?

Marty Pingle.

P-I-N-G-L-E? Correct.

Are they related?

They're, I believe, to be father and son.

Who's the father and who's the son?

Who did you end up going with for the gas

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station project?

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British Petroleum.

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How did you get to British Petroleum? Did they

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contact you or did you contact them?

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I'm trying to remember exactly how BP,

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somebody -- somebody -- somebody had contacted

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them, I believe, and told them that I might

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have been interested.

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Okay.

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Because we were looking to do something with

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the site and if I remember correctly they came

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out and talked to us. There was quite a few

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oil companies interested, so...

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Did more than just -- did oil companies besides

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Marathon and BP come to talk to you?

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Every one, every one.

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So did you end up going with Marathon for the

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Why did you go with BP? They seemed to be the most honorable, probably, but it was -- we got a good deal with them and they had a good marketing campaign going at the time.

What did you have to do to get -- did you have to get any kind of approval from the city to transition from a restaurant to the gas station?

Yes. What kind of process did you have to go through?

Various nongovernmental committees, I think it was -- there might have been Douglas Avenue Revitalization Committee, I believe, which was comprised of all the north side businessmen, members, at the time.

What did you have to go through them for?

The city required that of me to approve, to get the local business group to like our idea, to approve it first.

To get support from the businesses?

Uh-huh. It wasn't really required, but I was asked to do it.

Who asked you to do that?

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Brian O'Connell.

MR. STUART: I'm sorry, who?

THE WITNESS: Brian O'Connell, city development.

BY MR. SANDERS: Your understanding is he was part of what part of city government?

City development.

So was it a request from Brian O'Connell to get the approval from the Douglas Avenue Business Association?

Uh-huh.

Okay. What did you have to do to address the Douglas Avenue Association, Business Association?

We put a presentation on at our restaurant.

They did a vote.

Did they vote at your restaurant?

Uh-huh.

MR. RICHARDS: Yes or no.

THE WITNESS: Correct.

BY MR. SANDERS: I forgot to tell you -I know.

-- it's yes or no.

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Yeah.

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She can't type "uh-huh."

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Sorry about that.

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It's all right. So you said, tell me about --

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tell us about the presentation you put

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together.

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It just showed drawings and site plan to the --

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to a few of the members.

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Do you remember any of the members who were present?

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Eric Olson from O&H Bakery, Dave Namowicz, Tom

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Sollman might have been potentially there.

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It's been so long. This is probably '05.

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Okay. What was the reaction from the Douglas

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business -- Douglas Avenue Business Association

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once you made your presentation?

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Of course very -- very good and friendly.

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Did they have any questions about how you were

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going to pull it off or finance it or build it?

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Not necessarily, I don't believe. I don't

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believe they asked about finance.

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Was there any -- did you -- as part of your

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presentation did you inform them that you had

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intended on getting at least a liquor license

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to sell alcohol out of the gas station?

I -- I -- I don't recall. I don't -- I would -- I would -- we discussed a potential restaurant there, so they would have known about the -- they were sitting in a bar at the time when I was putting on the presentation, so they would have known about the plans for the restaurant for sure and the, when it comes to liquor.

So the presentation was made in the bar of Gibson's?

Uh-huh.

All right.

Correct. Sorry.

What?

I did the grunt again.

And do you know if any, do you recall if anybody from the city was at this presentation?

I don't -- I don't -- Tom Sollman might have been a alderman at the time if I -- he might have been the alderman for the district at the time, maybe. I don't -- I don't recall, potentially.

What district is 21 -- 2100 Douglas Avenue?

Fifth, I believe.

Fifth District?

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Yeah.

So you -- you testified earlier that they voted after the presentation?

They did vote, yeah.

Was it in public or at least in the bar or did they break off separate?

Yeah, I think they had a brief conversation, nobody moved, I left -- I left the area.

Okay.

It was in a secluded part of the bar.

And did they eventually tell you how they voted?

I -- boy, I don't remember if they gave me an answer on the spot or not. They did -eventually they ended up giving me approval, but then they were trying to renege on the approval.

What do you mean they tried to renege on the approval?

They tried to reverse the approval, take it away, because I went further down the line into the process and in order to stop it the first piece of the puzzle was their approval, so they believed if they -- if they removed that then my approval process would have reversed.

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Okay. Well, let's -- so after the presentation did there come a point in time where you learned from the Douglas Avenue Business Association that they were at least approving it so you could move on?

Correct.

All right.

The -- the -- what I had translated from communicating with them was that they -- we met their criteria for a new business, so they were trying to tell me that maybe personal opinion they didn't like it or didn't want it, but -but they were -- at the meeting they were very professional about it and said, you know, this is -- you met their criteria, so we have to pass you along.

What did they say in terms of their personal opinion they didn't like it?

Well, I don't think they expressed exactly why, but, you know, we didn't need another gas station, they liked the restaurant and that kind of stuff.

They didn't need another gas station?

Correct.

But liked the restaurant aspect.

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Yeah. They liked our current operation, which 1 it was a nice operation, but...

2 Why did you and your family decide to move from 3 the supper club, just exclusive restaurant?

4 Well, my father ran the -- my father ran the 5 restaurant for the most part because I was 6 building a home, so he was pushing -- my 7 father's mid 70s now, so they wanted to get -8 he was working physically as the head of the 9 kitchen, so, and he had some problems with 10 prostate cancer, things like that.

11 So more of a quality of life decision?

12 Correct, yeah.

13 So you -- you get this at least approval from 14 the Douglas Avenue Business Association because 15 you meet their criteria for a business and what 16 was the -- what was the next step in your 17 approval process?

18 I believe -- it's been so long, so I may miss a 19 step or, but...

20 What do you remember?

21 I remember going to maybe Access Corridor after 22 that, which was a conglomeration of various 23 groups such as the Douglas Avenue Committee, 24 from different business districts in the city, 25

so they're representative of various different areas of the city on this committee and that was the next step.

Was this -So there was a representative of the Douglas Avenue group on this next committee, so...

Okay. And was this the Access Corridor, was that a north side or a city wide?

No, it was a city wide.

All right. And was this a, another business association or was it a city committee, if you recall?

Well, it was all -- it was all appointees, I believe, if I remember correctly. Now, I don't remember -- don't quote me on that one. I don't know if the groups themselves picked the representative, they had different districts.

All right.

Okay. So I don't know for sure. And I don't remember, but there was a representative of every business district on this committee, so groups such as the Douglas Avenue Group, the other groups had -- had also provided a representative to this next committee.

Okay. Now, up to the point -- did you Page 29

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ultimately give a presentation to the Access Corridor?

I did.

And -And actually I believe my competitor across the street might have been on Access Corridor at the time, I think.

What were their names, Mitch?

Mitch Wemmert, I think he was on Access Corridor. He was on one of the committees over the next or following step, but I don't remember -- he had to recuse himself from voting.

How were you received at the Access Corridor meeting?

Same types of -- same types of questions.

Like what?

I think the groups, that the representatives that didn't really have anything to do with the district, I don't think it mattered too much to them. They didn't seem to be defensive at all, but to the members that might have had a little influence in my area, same kind of questions, gas, traffic, you know, I always laugh when they ask about traffic in a business district.

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That's a bad thing.

What do you mean, they were concerned about traffic?

They were worried about increased traffic in a business district on a state highway.

Why don't you describe the area around 2100 Douglas Avenue in terms of residential, business, combination of?

It's -- it's a good mix. It's mostly commercial along -- well, at least on the west side of Goold Street from Douglas west is all commercial for the most part except for a few blocks out. And along Douglas Avenue is primarily, on my block, 100 percent business and there's a little -- there's a city park across the street, but as you step out a little bit there's mixed use, residential, single-family, two families, mostly rental, I would assume.

Now, Mr. Tousis, the intersection that's Douglas Avenue and what?

Goold?

Goold? G-O-U-L? G-O-O-L-D, double O. Okay. What kind of, back in this time when you

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were transitioning from the gas station to the restaurant can you describe the traffic, the type of traffic, when were the heavy traffic periods?

Of course, you know, the -- the morning and afternoon rush, but it's -- but there's a constant flow of traffic all day long at that time.

So besides the concern over traffic what did the other members of the Access Corridor bring up at your meeting?

The effects on existing business.

Such as what?

They were alluding to make it better across the street.

Why do you think they were alluding to that?

I overheard some comments.

From whom?

Oh, boy, I had been -- when I got to -- when I got to planning, I believe, when I got to the planning committee, now, don't quote me on this, please, I believe Tom Sollman was also a member of that committee, if I'm not mistaken, and I'd been deferred a few times and when it came up to my -- when it came up to my

presentation there he asked it to be deferred and walked out of the meeting and said he had to go to another meeting, and the committee chair sent, ironically, Alderman Spangenberg to hunt him down and bring him back and they were forced to vote.

Okay. So at least in your timeline, I believe, you jumped ahead from the Access Corridor meeting?

Correct.

Okay. So let's finish up on the Access Corridor meeting.

It's very -- it's really blurred because a lot of these people are -- I -- I'm dealing with faces and names and it's the same people.

Same people along each step?

Along the committees, yeah, so...

What was the result of the Access Corridor meeting, did they approve your project?

I do believe that they ended up approving it, and I don't remember how many attempts it took or if it did take multiple attempts or not.

What was your next step?

It would have been planning after that, I believe.

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Planning committee?

Right.

And is this with the City of Racine?

Correct, and I'm going off of memory here, so...

Okay. So -There might have been another committee somewhere in between there, I don't remember.

When you went to the planning committee what did you have to do at that stage?

Same type of thing, presentation, reflect upon traffic counts and things like that, provide whatever studies you have done.

All right. Did you -- were you providing them with the information that they requested?

Yeah. I had -- we had some petroleum studies done, what to expect for customer counts and foot traffic on the site in the course of a day, things like that.

Now, once you got to the planning committee did you have any assistance in your efforts to make this go through the planning committee?

I'm trying to remember what level here.

Current Mayor John Dickert was on one of the committees and he provided assistance

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throughout. Gary Becker was helping and Rick

2

Heller, who was head of the building

3

department, was helping. When they tried to

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reverse the Douglas Avenue vote Brian O'Connell

5

was supposed to represent the city at the

6

meeting and he was removed and Rick Heller was

7

sent in, and when Rick Heller showed up they

8

disbanded the meeting and never reversed it,

9

which was, it was at, the meeting was at Warren

10 11 Q

Industries.

Well, let me back up. Who was the mayor at the

12

time that you were trying to --

13 A

Gary Becker.

14 Q

Okay. Gary Becker was the mayor when you were

15

trying to transition from the supper club to

16

the gas station?

17 A

Uh-huh.

18 Q

Do you know Gary Becker?

19 A

Just barely from being mayor, I mean, might

20

have met him once or twice previous, you know,

21

prior to that particular instance. I had

22

visited him a couple times in his office when

23

we were trying to push this along, but really

24

didn't have a relationship with Gary at all up

25

to that point. I had never met Gary up until Page 35

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What was his reaction to that?

He thought -- his first reaction was that he thought I was crazy when I explained that it was my idea, and then when I told him it was Brian O'Connell's idea he walked out of the office and went to Brian's office.

Okay. What was your next step then after you met with the mayor? I mean, did you change your plan to put the pumps behind the building?

No. So you kept the plan to put the pumps behind the building?

Yeah. I told Brian, I said if he wanted me to do that that you're going to have to take the mortgage.

And what was his reaction?

He doesn't do that.

All right. So did you keep the plans for the pumps behind the building or did you revert back -No. The plans were always in the front of the building. Brian wanted that, but I was not going to go along with that.

Okay.

Right about that time was when -- when they Page 37

1 mid stages of planning and the supper club was 1 were trying to reverse the Douglas Avenue vote.

2 still open.

2 Q Now, explain that. Who was trying to reverse 3 Q Now, why did you go to visit him in his office 3 the Douglas Avenue vote?

4 about your -- about your proposal?

4 A The members on the Douglas Avenue Committee 5 A Because the level of the flak that I was 5 were -- were secretly in opposition to it.

6 catching from Brian O'Connell in particular.

6 Q Okay. You say secretly. If it was a secret 7 One of the first meetings I had with Gary was 7 how did you know?

8 Brian O'Connell wanted me to put the pumps 8 A I overheard a conversation.

9 behind my building in planning, so where the 9 Q Where was the conversation -10 pumps are now he wanted the building at zero 10 A In my restaurant.

11 setback on Douglas Avenue, so he wanted the 11 Q -- and what was said? In your restaurant?

12 building to be sitting on the sidewalk and the 12 A Uh-huh.

13 pumps to be behind the building, very similar 13 Q When did the conversation take place, if you 14 to what they do in areas like Delafield and 14 can recall?

15 like high rent districts when they try to keep, 15 A During my first presentation with the Douglas 16 maintain a streetscape. So I showed up to the, 16 Avenue group.

17 to Gary's office with my current site layout, 17 Q Okay. So -- so at that initial presentation 18 what we have now, and asked him how he liked it 18 you were -- you testified earlier that you were 19 and he said he liked it, and I told him I was 19 told that you met all the technical 20 considering putting the pumps behind the 20 requirements -21 building and he looked at me like I was crazy 21 A Correct.

22 and asked me why the hell I would want to do 22 Q -- for the association, but there were people 23 that and I told him I was considering it 23 that had personal reasons against it.

24 because his expert down the hall thought it 24 A Correct.

25 would be a good idea.

25 Q So is this what you're referring to --

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Yes. -- where you got this idea?

Uh-huh.

All right. Do you recall -Yes. -- what was said?

Eric Olsen said that Dave Namowicz and Tom, I -- I bumped into Tom so much along the process there that I'm pretty sure that he was one of the members that was seated at that presentation, but -- but Eric Olsen's reaction was you know what this is going to do to Mitch across the street, and Namowicz at the time was very fair and said, "We're not here to protect business, we're here to follow the rules and make sure that everybody else follows the rules so we can't -- we can't protect a particular business," and everybody's reaction really was -- there was a guy named John Schaff, he owns a business park down the street from us, and he -- and I've known John for -- I've known John since I was a little boy, John was in opposition to it because he was very good friends with Marty Pingle across the street and John recused himself from the meeting, never

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came to the meeting, but they were all -- all trying to convince me that we didn't need another gas station, so...

So -- so right after that first, at the first presentation you at least had -- had an idea that although you were meeting all the technical requirements down the line there was some pushback for personal reasons.

Correct.

All right. Did you -- when you went and saw Mayor Becker did you communicate this to him?

Uh-huh, I did.

And what was his reaction?

Well, they can't do that. They're not there for that. And he explained to me when I really, when it came, push came to shove that I really didn't need approval from these committees. Those are for purposes of recommendation only and the city groups, the city committees would only take that as advisory and they should only take that as advisory and not necessarily follow what the -the groups asked them to -- to consider.

All right. So at this point had you -- after your initial presentation had you had any

conversations or contact with the alderperson in your district?

I believe it was Tom Sollman at the time, I believe, but no, I didn't -- we didn't really have -So you didn't meet with him independently -No. -- to discuss your project?

I don't believe we did at the time, no.

Okay.

At the time we really didn't know the process very well.

Okay.

So we weren't -- you know, other than, you know, knowing a lot of politicians and putting a lot, you know, of signs up and stuff like that for the guys we -- we're not really involved politically.

So once you got to the planning commission and you began to present or make your request to -to transition from the supper club to the gas station what requirements did you have to fulfill there?

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not -- we did not need a -- a zoning, we were zoned B3, so we didn't need a conditional use permit, so that's typically where all the discretion's placed, and you can kill a deal by saying you're not going to get a conditional use permit, but they couldn't do that to us.

Why couldn't they do that to you?

Because we had a B3. We were an approved use by zoning ordinances, so...

So because you had a D3 -B3.

-- other properties, could be gas stations in the area -B3, it was an allowed use, gas station, it was an allowed use, or I don't remember how it's classified, convenience store, gas station, I don't remember, but whatever we were doing was -- was an allowed use.

So you testified earlier that there came a point where you were referred back to the Douglas Avenue?

I wasn't referred back. They were -- they were trying to hold another meeting to reverse their approval.

And this is at the point you're up at the

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planning commission for the city?

Close, close.

All right. What happened at the -- the -- the meeting you're describing at the Douglas Avenue Business Association?

Brian O'Connell was supposed to represent the city at that meeting, but he was pulled off and Rick Heller was sent in, and when Rick showed up they disbanded the meeting.

Why was Brian -- who pulled Brian O'Connell off the meeting?

Gary Becker.

MR. STUART: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: Mayor Gary Becker.

BY MR. SANDERS: Do you know why Mayor Becker pulled O'Connell out of a meeting?

MR. STUART: Object to the form of the meeting.

THE WITNESS: Mayor Becker knew what they were trying to do and for what reasons they were trying to do it and he wasn't a supporter.

BY MR. SANDERS:

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He wasn't what?

He wasn't a supporter of their cause.

What was their cause?

To try to stop me and protect the existing business.

All right. And this is after you'd had conversations with Mayor Becker about what was happening to you?

MR. STUART: Object to the form of the question. There's only one conversation he's testified to. You keep assuming facts not in evidence, Counsel, and you're leading this witness, so I'm going to object to this line of questioning and to your examination.

MR. SANDERS: Any more objections?

MR. STUART: Not right now, but I'll let you know if I do.

MR. SANDERS: Thank you.

THE WITNESS: I might have met with Gary once or twice -BY MR. SANDERS: All right.

-- before that, three times max, maybe.

Was he at the meeting with you when Brian O'Connell was pulled out of the meeting?

No. I wasn't at that meeting. It wasn't a meeting for me to be at. It was for them to review their approval and reverse.

How did you learn what happened at that meeting?

Gary Becker told me what happened with, when Rick got back to him and said that Rick walked in and they walked out.

And did -- was there -- once O'Connell was taken out and Heller was put in there was there any problem at the business association meeting at that point?

MR. STUART: Are you asking about a meeting that he didn't attend? Object to the form of the question, lacks foundation.

THE WITNESS: I don't believe there was a meeting. Like I said, when Rick walked in they immediately disbanded.

BY MR. SANDERS: All right. So the Douglas Avenue Business Association never changed their approval, at least towards your transition.

Correct.

All right. Then what happened next in terms of getting your approval?

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I think once it was through plan I don't, you know, it was building department permitting, state plumbing and review, things like that. I don't think it was anything complex after that.

Once you got out of the planning commission did you receive any pushback from anybody at the city?

MR. STUART: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: I don't -- I think we were past the point where they could -- could do that anymore.

BY MR. SANDERS: All right. Did your proposal eventually go to the common council?

Yes, it was.

And do you know what the results were when the common council heard it?

It was approved ultimately.

All right.

I don't remember, there might have been one vote, two. I don't -- I don't recall because it's been, like I said, it's been almost ten years now, so...

Ultimately it was approved --

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Correct.

-- correct? When did you break ground?

I believe it was the beginning of January in '07.

Now, you indicated earlier that you also received help from John Dickert in trying to get the gas station built; is that correct?

Whatever committee John was seated on he was helpful, yes.

How do you know he was helpful to you?

Communicated with me after -- after meetings about various things.

Okay. Did you know John Dickert prior to your gas station project?

Yes. How did you know him?

Customer, his uncle was a customer for years.

John was at our bar frequently. The really only relationship, I think it was more relevant was that he was really being nice to me because Gary Becker was being nice to me and supported the project.

Okay. Do you know whether Dickert was a supporter of Gary Becker?

Definitely, yes.

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Did you have any business dealings with John Dickert prior to your gas station project?

I did.

What kind of business dealings did you have?

He represented a buyer on a house that I built and sold to that bar as a home builder.

When did this occur?

Had to be '02, '03, '04, maybe, in that range, maybe -- yeah, '02, '03, '04.

Did you -As late as '05, maybe.

You said that you built a home?

I had built quite a few homes.

When was that? Were you in that business?

I was in the home building business.

Did you have your own company?

Uh-huh.

What was the name of the company?

D.N. Sterling, D.N. Sterling Builders.

And when was D.N. Sterling in operation?

2000, 2001 to as late as, I pulled permits as late as '08, maybe, '09, 2010.

Okay. How did you get into that business?

I had a family friend that was the developer.

Was this a family business or was this

something you were in on your own?

No, just my own.

Were you actually building the homes or did you employ -I subcontracted a lot of the work, but I did a lot of the work at the time physically myself.

What kind of homes were you building?

Just midrange, I did some high end stuff too, but most, you know, the typical four bedroom family house.

Single-family?

Single-family.

Where were you building the homes in relation to Racine?

Pleasant Prairie, Racine, Mt. Pleasant -- or Racine County, Racine County/Kenosha County, it's probably easier to say that.

I'm just going to give you a warning I probably got about five minutes before I need to use the restroom.

It'll be about five minutes before we take our first break.

Okay. Good.

During that period how many homes did you build?

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I don't know, 15, maybe, 16, 17, 18.

Now, you said that you had a business dealing with John Dickert regarding the sale of one of the homes you built?

Correct.

Could you please explain how he was involved?

He was representing the -- he was a buyer's agent, representing the buyers.

Did the actual deal go down with the agent or with the buyer that he was representing?

They currently live there to this day, I think.

Could you describe how the deal took place?

My realtor contacted the listing agent who contacted me and said that John had a buyer interested in looking at the house, and they looked at the house and eventually wrote an offer on the house.

Do you remember what the offer was?

Mid 3s, probably 335, 329, 345, somewhere in that range.

Do you recall what -- what, if any, commission Dickert was going to get for the sale of the house?

Well, at the time I know it was pretty standard for me to do a 4 percent split, so 2 percent to

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the buyer's agent, 2 percent to the selling agent.

Did it end up different for this particular deal?

It ended up being significantly higher for the buyer's agent.

For Dickert?

Uh-huh.

How did that happen?

He requested it, otherwise they were not going to write an offer.

What specifically did he request?

It was either a point or two points more than typically, I think, if I remember correctly.

It was in the thousands of dollars in difference.

And did you agree to it?

Yeah, I did agree to it. It was discount for the buyers or more commission for the -- for the agent, so...

Now, you didn't -- you weren't forced to enter that deal, though.

I was forced to enter it if I wanted to sell to these particular people.

Okay. You could have sold it to somebody else.

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I could have.

Okay.

At the time I didn't have another buyer, so I didn't.

Did you have any other business dealings with him prior to your involvement with him, or at least with your gas station?

Prior to -Prior to the gas station project.

I don't believe so. That was about it.

Okay. Why don't we take a break at this point.

Okay. Thank you.

(Short break was taken.)

BY MR. SANDERS: Mr. Tousis, earlier you were testifying that John Dickert helped you in your gas station project. How specifically did he help you in your gas station project?

I just believe in the committees he was at, he just made it -- he didn't provide any opposition and he had -- he had done some things that he thought he was helping me with a couple times.

Such as what?

I got a phone call from him once one time after

a committee meeting where they were reviewing a, what was currently a BP on Rapids Drive, it's about a mile from my store, and he -- he had gave them a no vote and at least delayed the construction of the site or approval of the liquor. I think they were in there for review because they were trying to make the building bigger than they originally planned so they can qualify for a liquor license, and John called me immediately after and told me that he put the kibosh to it at least for that.

And you thought that was somehow helping you out?

I think he thought that.

Was your gas station -Holding off the inevitable.

Was your gas station already built at that point?

I believe it was, yeah. It was probably newer at the time.

All right.

It would -- he would not have been mayor yet, so it would have been before that. He had a few expletives added onto that.

What was that?

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He had a few expletives to describe the developer.

The developer on Rapids Drive?

Uh-huh.

In what -- in what context?

Called him a towel head.

A towel head?

Correct. I don't even know the guy. I know the guys that own it now are Indian. The developer was Palestinian Muslim, Arab Muslim.

But I met, since met the current owners just recently at a dinner function, maybe about six months ago.

And when Dickert made this comment to you he was not the mayor at the time.

No, he wasn't.

And this is when he was sitting on a committee that at least had something to do with the -with the -Yeah, it was either planning or Access Corridor, it was one of the final steps that you need.

Okay. Did -- and what part of the conversation did it come up where he made this comment?

He just called and informed me that they had --

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the developer had gotten real lippy with Becker at the time, I think, and -With Becker or Dickert?

With Becker originally and then, you know, Dickert was doing his bidding.

Doing whose bidding?

He was standing in support of Gary, whatever Gary's decisions were.

How do you know that?

Just watching. I know Gary got into it, got into it with either a licensing committee meeting or -- or a council meeting, got into it publicly with the developer.

For the gas station on Rapids Drive.

Uh-huh. And I don't blame Gary for getting into it. The guy was demanding instead of requesting.

And did this telephone call and comment by Dickert come after those comments that were made between Becker and the developer?

I believe so.

Why don't you mark that as 211.

(Exhibit No. 211 marked for identification.)

BY MR. SANDERS: Mr. Tousis, I'm going to hand you what's been

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marked as Exhibit 211, take a moment to look at that.

My store.

Do you know, are you familiar with the aerial photographs and the photograph -Uh-huh, yes.

Do you know whose or what it depicts or what it's depicting in these photographs?

My family's business site.

Better Day BP? Correct.

At 2100 Douglas Avenue?

Correct.

Okay. Now, after your gas station project went through did you continue to have a relationship with Gary Becker, at least communicate with Gary Becker?

Yeah. Gary -- I mean, on a professional political level not really. I mean, he used to stop in and get doughnuts and scratch lottery tickets off, very, you know, stopping for coffee more than anything.

Did you ever socialize with him outside of business, I mean, him coming into your business or restaurant?

I went on a trip with him and a few local judges and a couple of department, maybe a department head or two from the City of Racine.

Where did you go?

Las Vegas.

What was the purpose of the trip?

They already had the trip booked and, you know, Gary just thought -- we had nothing going on at the time that was professional, really, so they just thought it would be fun to have me along, I guess.

All right. So you went on this trip with him?

Yeah. Well, yeah, we did fly together. I ended up buying the ticket from Brown, the finance guy at the city hall, I bought his ticket. I think I had -- I think I was going -- I might have had another ticket booked with my little cousin. Actually, I don't remember when it was, but we were going at the same time. I was going with my little cousin because his father had passed away and -- and I found out that -- that Gary mentioned he was going with a couple other guys, and my little cousin ended up having to go to Phoenix for business first, so I took a brown stick and Page 57

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bought his and just flew with Gary because I didn't really have anybody to fly to Vegas with.

Do you know if Becker's trip was a business trip or was it personal?

No, it was all personal. Everybody there was, it was on a personal level.

So did Becker run again for mayor?

I don't remember.

After the BP station went through did he have -- have an election cycle that you were involved in?

I don't -- no, I don't think so, no, at the time. I don't remember, but I know -- I know for sure I wasn't involved.

Did you get involved in a special election for mayor?

I was involved in a special election. I mean, I don't know -- I wouldn't call it involved, but I contributed.

Okay. Do you know when that was, the special election?

God, that had to be '10 or '11.

Okay.

Let's see, 2000 -- boy, I don't even remember

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what year it was, because it was midstream, so

1 A

They were very, you know, they were, you know,

2

I don't know.

2

they were very friendly, a lot of, you know,

3

political jargon, you know, how's everything

4

project was completed --

4

going and, you know, coffee and baby kissing

5 A

Yeah.

5

and things like that.

6 Q

-- correct?

6 Q

7 A

Yes.

7

Had you obtained your liquor license yet prior

8 A

I don't believe the first -- no, the first time

9

I think he just popped in unannounced and the

3 Q

8 Q 9

Okay. Now, it was after the gas station

to the special election?

Well, when he would -- you said he popped in.

Did you know he was coming when he showed up?

10 A

Yeah. I had everything.

10

follow-up stuff I think he -- I was trying to

11 Q

Okay. When -- do you know who ran for mayor in

11

put him off because we thought he was going to

the special election?

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lose.

13 A

Well, in the end after the primary it was

13 Q

You were trying to put Dickert off.

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Dickert and Bob Turner.

14 A

Right.

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Did you know Bob Turner?

15 Q

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Yeah, we knew Bob Turner for years. I don't

16

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think we gave -- I don't think we contributed

17 A

Yeah. We just didn't think -- I don't think a

18

anything for that election for him.

18

lot of people thought he was.

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his campaign?

THE WITNESS: For Turner.

21 A

He was, yes.

MR. DEVINE: Okay.

22 Q 23

BY MR. SANDERS: Do you know why -- why the special election was being held?

1 A

Our current mayor was on a camping trip.

2 Q

On a camping trip?

3 A

Uh-huh. He was arrested and had been sentenced

4

to prison, I believe.

5 Q

Is that Gary Becker?

6 A

Right.

At any point in the special election campaign

8

were you approached to contribute to one of the

9

candidates?

10 A

Dickert's uncle had -- had popped in once or

11

twice, if I am not mistaken, asking us to

12

support John, and -- and John had popped in

13

himself a couple of times too.

14 Q

Into the gas station?

15 A

Yes. And I might have got a call or two from

16

him too.

17 Q

From whom?

18 A

From John.

19 Q

When he -- when he came to your gas station you

20

said one to two times, or how many times did he

21

come to the gas station to ask you to

22

contribute?

23 A

A couple times, probably, before -- before

24

he --

25 Q

Can you describe those meetings?

What was he asking you to contribute? How much was he asking you to contribute?

24 A

Well, at the end when -- when we -- he -- John

25

makes you aware of things that he's aware of, Page 61

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7 Q

Was he specifically asking you to contribute to

20

for Dickert?

21 23

19 Q

MR. DEVINE: I'm sorry, for Turner or

Because you thought he was going to lose to Turner?

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okay.

Describe that.

You know, there's two pallets of liquor sitting on the shelf in front of you and he'll point it out and say, "How's -- how's the liquor business, is it going good, is it -- is it," you know, and I know John well enough to understand what he was trying to say, so...

Well, what was he trying to say in your mind?

All the things that he talked about, asked, were stuff that was regarding license, okay, stuff that they had control over.

Who had control over?

The city.

All right. He wasn't in city government yet.

Not at this time, no.

So he was referring to things that the city had control over -Correct.

-- in your store?

MR. STUART: Object to the form of the question.

BY MR. SANDERS: Is that correct?

Correct.

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And these were in the -- these were on the occasions that he came to your store seeking a contribution for his campaign -Correct.

-- in the special election.

Correct.

All right. How did that make you feel?

Well, knowing John's demeanor and personality it was uncomfortable and especially when it started getting close.

Why do you mean his demeanor and his personality?

Because I -- I did business with the guy who he was representing supposedly his friend, and if he was willing to pass the discount along to his friend and take the money in his pocket, he took the money in his pocket. If I was representing a friend I would probably pass that commission along to my friend.

And are you talking about the house that you built?

Yes. That sold to the person he was representing -Yes. -- several years before?

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Yes. Okay. So you said you felt uncomfortable or uneasy? What were the words you used?

Both would probably describe -All right.

-- those words.

Ultimately did you give a contribution to Dickert's campaign?

Finally after talking with my father, I asked him what the max contribution was and, because he was running hectic, he said he was running out of money for the radio and mail, and this was days, maybe a week before the election, and -- and then the max was 800 some dollars but he told me that he needed more than that.

Is this a conversation you were having with John Dickert?

Yes. And where was this conversation taking place?

It was at my store.

In the office area, in the general area, where was it?

It moved around. It was -- we probably started in the front and ended up in front of the office.

All right. And what specifically did you ask him in terms of what the max contribution was?

I asked him how much the max contribution was and I told him that I had my dad write a check and he told me -- then he was asking me if I was going to contribute.

In addition to your father?

Correct.

All right. And your response was?

I wasn't, you know, planning on it. The max contribution from one person in a mayor's race seems like a lot of money to me, but he told me that he didn't have enough money to pay for radio advertising and that if I wanted my other project that I was pursuing at the time to go through that we needed a strong real estate mayor, business mayor.

Okay. What was the other project that you were working on at that time?

Another small grocery store/gas station/restaurant.

Where was that going to -- where did you want that to take place?

West Boulevard and Washington Avenue.

Okay. Is that in West Racine?

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In West Racine.

And what was the -- what was that project going to be?

Similar to my store but more grocery based with a bigger restaurant, pumps, you know, the gas pumps at the time, I was going to do a car wash. I had a bank tenant interested in going in there too.

Making, building a branch?

Yes, a small branch, yeah.

And in West Racine in the location that you were specifically targeting or looking at who owned the lot?

There was a redevelopment authority property, so it was an arm of the city, whether you want to call it that.

And at the time that Dickert came into your store and you agreed to make a contribution where were you at in the West Racine project?

In the, you know, maybe various committees, maybe just in the beginning, discussion, maybe a committee or two. I don't know.

Had you talked, prior to this conversation in your gas station when you finally agreed to commit to contribute, had you talked to John

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Dickert about your West Racine project?

2 A

No, not before that.

3 Q

Did -- did he --

4 A

I really hadn't talked to John for quite a bit

5

of time before he started soliciting us for

6

money.

7 Q

Well, on this particular occasion, the day that

8

you agreed to make a contribution, who brought

9

up the West Racine project?

10 A

John did. John was reviewing my prints.

11 Q

He was what?

12 A

Reviewing the prints.

13 Q

How did he obtain the prints?

14 A

He asked to see them and when he was asking me

15

if we could do the project without pumps, with

16

no gas, just do grocery and restaurant.

17 Q

Okay.

18 A

Various questions like that.

19 Q

And at this point he had no authority

20

whatsoever over your project.

21 A

No.

22 Q 23

Do you know if he was sitting on any committees?

24 A

He might have been on the same committee

25

that -- he probably was. It was only a few

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years after our first project, so...

1 Okay. Ultimately how much money did you agree 2 to give him?

3 Well, I originally wanted to max out, wrote the 4 check from my father and after talking to my 5 father, but John said he was very short and 6 needed to pay for radio and he wasn't going to 7 win and he was out of money and depleted his 8 own so he asked if we could do twice the 9 amount.

10 Okay.

11 Okay. So -- and it was rough, you know, the 12 real amount's got to be around $1,900 so I just 13 rounded it to, you know, approximately 2,000 14 bucks.

15 And did you give him -- did you write checks 16 for him?

17 No. He didn't want it that way.

18 What happened? What did he say?

19 He said he didn't have time, because this was 20 days before the election to turn around the 21 money to pay for advertising, so it was either 22 radio or print or both or that he needed to pay 23 for it immediately otherwise he was going to 24 lose.

25

All right. So what did you end up doing?

Giving him -- giving him cash.

How did you give him the cash?

He -- he provided a jar with a "John Dickert for Mayor" sticker on the front of it and said to take any contribution, pass to my customers, like leave it on the counter and collect money.

That's the story he was giving me.

The day that -- the day that he asked you to make this contribution how long after that did you receive the jar?

Oh, it was the same day. It was hours following.

Who brought the jar to you?

John, I think, brought the jar to me.

Okay.

He had somebody pick it up.

So the day that you had this conversation, the day he brought you the jar, did you put the jar on the counter for customers to put money into?

No, it never got to the counter.

Where did you take the money from?

We just took it out of the sales that day.

How much money did you put in the jar?

It was just short of 2,000 bucks, you know, Page 69

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uneven number, so 1,900 something dollars and singles and fives and ten and 20s and mixed up.

How big was the jar?

It was a mason jar. It wasn't very big at all.

It was like a Ragu container. It wasn't very big at all.

You said it was covered with stickers on it?

It was one sticker across the front.

What was on the -It was taped or it was something taped to the front of it. It was a "John Dickert for Mayor" type of a small banner type of decal.

Okay. Did you ultimately put cash in the jar?

Correct.

Then how did you transfer the money back to Dickert?

He sent at the time one of his campaign workers over to pick it up.

Do you know who the campaign worker was?

Zach Williams.

Had you met Zach Williams before?

Never. That was the first time we ever met, I'd say.

Did you meet him in person for the first time or did he call or e-mail initially?

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No. John said he was going to send his guy over to pick up the jar, that's it, and I don't know if we agreed upon a time at the time or not, but he was there promptly and said he was here to pick up a jar for Dickert and...

Did he pick it up the same day you had the conversation with Dickert and the day he brought you the jar or was it at a time later?

It was -- it was either immediately following, because John would visit us in the morning, it seemed like, if I'm not mistaken it would have been morning time, because it usually seemed like we always hit a doughnut and coffee when we were talking, so it was either that afternoon that same day. I don't recall exactly, but if I was betting I would say it was the same afternoon.

That Zach came by.

Correct.

And -Because like I said, there was hours passing before the election, so it was real -- it was real close at the time, so...

Okay. Describe your meeting with Zach Williams.

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Just walked in, shook my hand, said he was

2

so-and-so, we're working the Dickert campaign,

3

he was here to pick up the jar, and I just gave

4

him the jar and...

5 Q

Did he actually say to you, "I'm here to pick

6

up a jar"?

7 A

Correct, yeah.

8 Q

And where did you have the jar at the time?

9 A

I had it sitting on my desk.

10 Q

Desk in your office?

11 A

Yes.

12 Q

So it wasn't out on the counter.

13 A

No, it wasn't on the counter.

14 Q 15

Was there anybody else around when Zach came in and picked up the jar?

16 A

My father and I work side by side and so highly

17

probable that my father was sitting right

18

there. I know my father had seen the jar, so

19

we had rounded the money up together.

20 Q 21

Did Zach, how did he carry the jar out of the station?

22 A

I don't know if I gave him a bag. I might have

23

given him a black bag, a shopping bag.

24 Q

From the goes station?

25 A

From the gas station.

Did he say what he was going to do with the money?

Not -- no. I mean, John explained it to me that it was for advertising, for a final push.

Did he ask you for your name, your address, your business address, the name of your business?

No, no details like that, no.

What was your understanding in terms of this money that you just contributed to Dickert, what was your understanding of whether it was going to be reported or not?

No. MR. STUART: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: I was -- he was very clear that it wasn't going to be reported.

BY MR. SANDERS: Why do you think that?

Because of the nature of it. He wanted it in cash and he said he needed to turn it around and pay for stuff that day, so you know, I don't -- I just, from all the signs that I could see that he was not going to report it.

Did you ever see a campaign finance report with Page 73

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your name on it and your address -From --- describing -- for Dickert describing the money that you contributed?

No. I never saw that, no.

What about for your father?

I never looked. I mean, we never looked. We just, you know, I didn't ask for one in particular, but I remember him showing me one, said that my father and I were listed as contributors.

Did you expect to be listed on -No. -- an official campaign finance report?

Not in the way he described it.

So did -- when's the next time you talked to Dickert after you made the contribution?

His party after the election in May. Were you -- how did you get to the party?

Drove there.

Were you invited?

I was invited.

By who?

By Dickert, by Monte Osterman, by quite a few people that were close to John.

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Well, who contacted you? Did somebody contact

2

you and ask you to come to the party?

3 A

I don't know if Monte had contacted -- John had

4

invited me and I don't remember if that was

5

the, you know, right away or -- or if he

6

contacted me after from when he was picked up.

7 Q

Okay. And you said that Monte Osterman also --

8 A

There was a lot of thank yous when I walked

9

around the room from his campaign.

10 Q

Did Monte Osterman contact you prior to the

11

party?

12 A

See, I knew Monte and I had done some business

13

with Monte in the past, so I don't want to

14

get -- I don't want to say yes or no because I

15

know I talked to Monte around that time,

16

shortly after, shortly before, but I can't say

17

for sure.

18 Q

How do you know Monte?

19 A

He did granite work for me years previous.

20 Q

On your homes or in your businesses?

21 A

On my the homes that I was constructing.

22 Q

All right.

23 A

And he was supposed to do work for me in a home

24

that I was building for myself at the time.

25 Q

This is in 2009, right after the special

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election?

Yeah, right around the same time, yeah, might have been under construction during the special, I don't know.

All right. And so when you went to the campaign, to the campaign party who were some of the people that you recall being there?

A lot of, various politicians. There was John, John's wife, I met his wife and his kids, Monte, Monte's wife. There was a banker from Kenosha that was part of the campaign that I was introduced to. I was introduced to everybody on the campaign. Monte's wife and Monte hugged me, telling me thank you. Monte knew exactly.

What do you mean -MR. STUART: Object.

BY MR. SANDERS: -- Monte knew exactly?

Monte knew that I had given John Dickert money because he thanked me for it.

Did he thank you for the specific amount?

Not -- not specific amount, no.

What was the conversation that you had with him?

At the party it was brief and he thanked me for helping, you know, John with money.

And this was just a couple days after you had actually made the donation?

Yeah, it was a few, it was very, very, very close, days, days before.

Now, you mentioned Monte's wife?

Monte's wife was there. She was involved in the campaign, I believe.

Do you know how she was involved?

She wore a John Dickert shirt. I don't know if she was collecting contributions or I really don't know.

Do you know her name?

Mary, I believe it was Mary.

Last name?

I thought it was Osterman, but...

Okay. You think it's Mary Osterman?

I assumed it's his wife, so I never met -- I shouldn't say that. I met her at the granite shop a couple times before.

At whose granite shop?

Monte's, years before.

All right. So on the night of the party, the campaign party, did you have any conversation Page 77

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with Monte's wife Mary?

Yeah, she hugged me and was very happy, you know, she was -- a lot of thank yous.

Did she mention the contribution?

Not -- not -- no, not -- not Mary.

All right. Was Zach Williams there?

Zach was there, I believe.

Did you talk to Zach?

I did talk to Zach.

Did you talk to him anything about the contribution?

No, we didn't talk a lot about the contribution. We might have, you know, might have been the same thing, I might have got a thank you or two, but he mentioned there was a lot of conversation about my other project.

About the West Racine project?

Right.

So you, at the campaign party you were talking to Zach about the West Racine project?

Yeah. I talked to, I mean, a lot of people wanted to talk about it, so...

Like such as whom besides Zach?

Well, Tom Friedel was there, he was acting mayor at the time, so he's the city

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administrator now. There was a lot of, it seemed to be donors there.

Donors to Dickert's campaign?

Right. There's a few people that I knew, I mean, I knew of were there.

Who else did you know that you haven't mentioned?

Know at that party?

Yeah.

There was a lot. There was aldermen that I knew. I mean, a lot of people that I knew who they were, I wouldn't say I knew them or...

Okay. Did -- at the party did Friedel discuss your West Racine project?

Briefly, maybe, yeah.

Do you recall what the two of you talked about regarding the project?

Yeah, we didn't go into depth. It wasn't really the setting to do -- to do such. Not a lot of details in the conversation. It was more friendly and a lot of, you know, thank you kind of stuff to me, so...

How long have you known Tom Friedel?

I barely knew the guy. All I knew him he was acting mayor at the time. I don't think I ever

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had a conversation with him that wasn't in front of an audience at the council meetings.

Do you know if he's related to anybody in city government, Racine city government?

I have no clue. It seems like everybody's related in Racine except me, so...

All right. At the -- at the campaign party meeting did you or the election party when you talked to Zach Williams about the West Racine project did you get any specifics with him?

Well, actually, it's been so long, I mentioned earlier there was a banker that was involved in the campaign, John and Zach had introduced me to this banker and he said he was potentially interested in providing financing for them.

Who was the banker, do you know?

If I remember his name was Don. He might have worked at the Bank of Kenosha at the time or I had never met him before that, and before that I never really saw him after that.

And he was introduced to you by Zach and John -John, yeah.

-- Dickert at the campaign party.

Correct.

All right. So after the campaign -- let me back up for a minute. You made this -- this campaign contribution in cash.

Uh-huh.

Why did you feel or why did you allow yourself to make that campaign contribution over the limit in cash?

MR. STUART: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: Well, the exact conversation I had with my dad was, because we know we knew John, we knew how he is, and we discussed it in length that if we don't give this guy something and he wins you know he's going to grind us up, so...

BY MR. SANDERS: What do you mean grind us up?

We're going to be in front of the licensing committee, you know, every time there's a 12 year old that has a cigarette on Douglas Avenue, things like that.

Well, explain. What do you mean?

Any opportunity to bring you in front of licensing you're going to be there. I have a drive-through window in the restaurant that I Page 81

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never opened up because I'm afraid that somebody's going to shoot themselves in the parking lot at 3:00 in the morning while they're drunk and then I'm going to be in front of licensing, the person who shot somebody's going to get off, and then they're going to take our livelihood away for actions at 3:00 in the morning after they've been drinking all night.

So you and your father were very conscientious about that?

Of course.

Now, specifically about Dickert?

We knew that Dickert could be, you know, damning, if he wanted to be, against you.

Okay. Did you have problems with other people in city government?

Yes. Such as who?

Just the same people that were opposed to us for the other station, the taste was still left in our mouth, you know, we -- prior to that we had no problems ever so we became, you know, unfavorable just because we wanted to build something on our property that we owned for 25

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years.

So unfavorable after the BP station.

Correct. And particularly because it went through.

Did you have any problems with the licensing of the BP station up to the 2009 special election?

Not in particular, no, no. At the time Gary Becker was mayor, so ultimately they get what they want, so if they want licensing then everybody gives you licensing.

Did you ever have to call on Mayor Becker other than your original plans for the BP station, so after the BP station did you ever have to call him regarding problems you were having?

No, not really, no.

All right. When -- after the special election and Dickert's the mayor -Uh-huh.

-- did you have any additional contact with Zach Williams?

Yeah, shortly after he won the election Zach had, you know, came in with a proposal. It wasn't on paper or anything like that, it was orally, but to be a liaison between us and the city for seeking approvals for them, in the

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Zach over, it would be a good idea maybe to

2

streamline everything to have somebody handle

3

it.

4 Q

sending Jack over or Zach over?

6 A

Shortly after the election.

7 Q

And then Zach shows up.

8 A

Right.

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construction of our plans, development.

For West Racine?

Right.

Did you agree on a fee?

I know we did. I don't remember what it was.

I know I gave him a retainer check up front and then I don't remember what the amount was. I really don't remember.

Was it more than a couple hundred dollars?

Oh, it was, yeah, it was, I don't know, 3,000 to 5,000. I don't remember, because we had, you know, done some print stuff too and I don't remember how much that was, what that cost.

So you hired Zach Williams to be a liaison between your West Racine project and the city.

Right.

Why did you feel it was important to hire Zach Williams?

Well, John told me that he'd sent him over after I talked to John, so it's politics, so it was very, everybody's going to -- everybody's going to reap what they sow if they win.

Why did John -- when did John tell you that he sent Zach over?

Well, John told me that he was going to send

And you hire him.

Right.

All right. How did the West Racine project go after that?

13 A

Ultimately it was killed, but I had lots of

14

conversations in my house, John's house about

15

how it wasn't going to be killed.

16 Q

Okay.

17 A

John stopped at my -- my house quite a few

18

times. At the time I lived a half a block away

19

from him.

20 Q 21

Now, he'd come by your house unannounced or did you ask him to come over?

22 A

Sometimes it would be unannounced. Yeah, it

23

wasn't announced. We never really scheduled.

24 Q 25

So what exactly was Zach doing for you with the city towards the West Racine project?

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Zach was acting pretty much as a lobbyist at the time, supposed to be the point guy for, and at that time everything was, when Zach was in favor, you know, things were -- things were fine.

Well, describe that. When Zach was in favor what happened?

Well, when Zach was still considered one of Dickert's guys we had -- we had everybody answering our phone calls.

Okay. And did something happen where Zach fell out of favor?

Well, I had -- we had spent tons of money getting it down the road and John kept telling me where it's going to go, he's pulling me in his chambers during council meetings, over and over again, conversations to how it's going to go, telling other developer firms working on it too, he's telling them the same thing, da-da-da, kept spending money, I've got to pull the trigger, and I would have pulled the plug early on without having spent all that money if I knew it was going to be a no and -- and ultimately in the end everything's started getting heavier and heavier and more difficult

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and more difficult, so...

Well, you said that Zach fell out of favor.

How did he fall out of favor?

Well, Zach went blew a gasket at a council meeting one day, went right to the reporter and told them that all this stuff is all baloney, it was Dickert killing it. Zach was close to John, very, very close up to this point and the guy just blew, right in front of me blew a gasket and went right to the reporter and that was it after that.

Were you ever approached by anybody else to be a consultant or liaison with the city?

To be a consultant? Yeah, I was actually, after -- it was after the fact, though. Monte was mad that I had hired Zach because I could have hired him.

Monte Osterman?

Correct.

When did -- when did you learn about that?

Well, I was working on granite, right around the same time for the home that I was building for myself, and Monte said he needed $1,000 to be a sponsor for this guy to come up to Racine, so he needed me to give him $1,000 to pay for a

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guy to come to Racine to develop, to manufacture drains for bathroom sinks using a magnet of some sort instead of a mechanical plunger up and down to stop the, stop -- to act as a plug in the sink.

Okay. So when did this conversation take place with Monte Osterman?

While I was looking at granite for the home.

In his store?

In his store.

All right.

Monte stopped at my store quite a few times, same thing.

Asking for $1,000?

The conversation went a couple times and I was just trying to blow him off, just get granite for the house. I didn't want to give Monte $1,000. I thought Monte was incompetent, and that was a compliment, for the most part, so Monte was never going to accomplish anything with $1,000 and it was all baloney anyway. I knew Monte was always behind the eight ball on the bills. We had to give him money to buy the granite. As a contractor we had to pay him up front so he could buy the stone to do your job.

Okay.

Okay. So -Was he going to work on your house?

He was supposed to, yeah, and then I just, I had enough and I -- and I called John, I told him to keep Monte away from me, I'm not an ATM machine, I'm all done hiring everybody to work for you, I don't care, I'm not doing this, so...

What do you mean that you're not an ATM machine?

Just because they worked on Dickert's campaign doesn't mean -- I was overpaying for granite as it was from Monte, by at least 1,000, $1,500, so, and I was fine with that because of course, you know, John wants Monte to do your work, so...

What do you mean John wants Monte to do your work?

Well, John wants -- he tries to leverage money to Monte's business.

So when you -- when you called Dickert, before you called Dickert did you tell anybody else about Monte -No, I told Zach, I said, "Tell John to tell Page 89

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Monte to leave me alone." I said, "Get him off my butt." I said, "I hired you, I don't want him asking me for money every 15 minutes. I don't want to give the guy any money." What's he going to do with $1,000?

What was -Where's he going to get a sponsor for $1,000, because an airplane ticket's 500. I don't know where you're going to feed him. How is $1,000 going to accomplish anything besides putting it in your pocket?

What was Zach's response?

Well, Zach had called John and tried to back Monte up, and then immediately after that Monte started trying to submarine on my project.

How was he trying to submarine your project?

He was working, talking to other politicians, working against it, and it started right there at the time.

Was Monte involved in politics at the time?

No. He was the vice-mayor, according to him, if you asked him. His title was vice-mayor.

What do you mean by vice-mayor? Where does that term -He calls himself the vice-mayor.

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Did he have a relationship with John Dickert?

2 A

They were always together.

3 Q

When did he call himself the vice-mayor?

4 A

It was at the -- at the -- at the party at, I

5

was at with a few friends at the Ivanhoe, they

6

had another party after the election night

7

party, and I don't know, it was a week or two

8

after that Monte was talking to me and he

9

called himself the vice-mayor in front of a

10 11 Q

table full of businessmen.

All right. And so what were some of the things

12

specifically that he did to submarine your

13

project?

14 A

I know he was in communication with an alderman

15

in particular over and over again about my

16

project because nobody can keep a secret.

17 Q

What alderman?

18 A

Spangenberg.

19 Q

Was he an alderman that was in your district?

20 A

He was very -- he was the district over from --

21

for my project in West Racine. He might have

22

had a business in the district.

23 Q

Okay. So what -- what did Spangenberg do in

24

reference to your project?

25 A

Well, Spangenberg hated -- that was his little

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pet property over there and -- and didn't like

2

my project because obviously it didn't involve

3

him in any sort and, you know, and ultimately

4

because, like I said, at the time there was

5

still communication going on with Zach. It was

6

getting foggy, but those other people that I

7

knew at the city level and there was meetings

8

between John and Monte and Spangenberg and John

9

and blah, blah, blah. Ultimately the deal

10

supposedly was that if John killed my project

11

that Spangenberg would not run for mayor

12

against him because he was threatening, you

13

know, because he got 300 votes or something

14

like that in the special election that he was

15

going to run against Mayor Dickert.

16 Q

So this last part you said that John killed

17

your project so Spangenberg wouldn't run

18

against him?

19 A

Correct.

20

MR. STUART: Object to the form of

21

the question.

22

BY MR. SANDERS:

23 Q

How did you learn that?

24 A

Because there was still -- there was still

25

communication going on with Zach and there's

other people that I knew.

So you didn't hear about this directly.

No. You heard it through other people.

Correct.

Including Zach Williams.

Correct.

And after -- after this -- these telephone calls between you and Dickert and then you telling Zach about Monte Osterman, all right, was there any change in -- in how your project was going forward?

Well, I fired Monte from my house and so he didn't do the work, and then John called, I don't know if it was Van Wanggaard, was he elected at the time?

You can't ask him questions.

I don't remember if it was -- I don't know if he was elected at the time or if he was still just county supervisor or whatever, but the mayor was helping my project because he lived around the corner from there and he called -John had called Van and wanted me to meet with Van and John at Wilson's Coffee and John begged me to hire Monte.

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Hire Monte to do what?

To do my house, to rehire him.

Okay. To do the marble granite work -Correct.

-- at your house?

Correct, and I told him no.

What did that have to do with your West Racine project?

Absolutely nothing. Shouldn't have anything to do with it.

Did -- when you met with Dickert and Van Waangard did you talk about -It was supposed to be -- the meeting was supposed to be about West Racine.

Did you talk about West Racine?

Vaguely, very little. It was all about getting Monte the granite work.

Was Zach at the -No. Was Zach -Van and I and -- and John and Van was in complete shock. He said, "What the hell does this have to do with West Racine?" It didn't have anything to do with West Racine.

All right. How did the meeting end?

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Same thing, shaking hands. I just told John, "I'm not going to hire Monte, Monte's an idiot, I don't want him around, I don't want him asking me for money." I said, "He's incompetent at best even for granite fabrication." I said, "Just keep the guy away from me. I'm not giving him any money. I'm not giving him any more overpayment for granite because he's your friend." I said, "I don't want" -- "Is there anything that we could do to get Monte your job back? Can I tell him to do it cheaper?" I said, "I already hired the guys, they're fabricating now," I said, "there's nothing I can do about it."

All right. So what ends up happening with the West Racine project?

At the end I had a $5,000 deposit for an option and John had called my friend who was working, who was supposedly John's friend also and said that if I took -- if I backed off right now, no more digging, that he would give me my 5,000 bucks back otherwise I'm not getting the 5,000 bucks back either.

5,000 bucks from where?

From the deposit that I had put down for the Page 95

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option for the property, so we knew it was going to be dead at that time anyway. We pushed as much as we could and opted to take the 5,000 bucks back.

Now -He was up to that point telling that guy that he called for the $5,000 that the deal's going to go, we're going to do it, we're going to get it done, just working -- everybody thought -and I started doubting him well before this and the guy that he called about the 5,000 bucks still believed that John was helping us. I told him he was not helping us, he was hurting.

Then he called me and he says, "You're right," he says -- just called up, said, "Pick up the 5,000 bucks otherwise you're not even going to get the five grand back."

Did you ultimately get the five grand back?

Yeah, I picked it up.

Prior to that had you appeared at city council at all, before the city council?

I might -- I might have a few times, yeah, maybe -- I don't know if it was to speak about -- I don't -- I know -- oh, boy. Yeah, I'm pretty sure, I remember a few times being

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in front of council regarding exactly what the project -- what part of the project I don't, I don't know.

How, you said that Dickert on occasion would stop by your home -Uh-huh.

-- to talk to you about the west end project?

Uh-huh.

Did he talk to you about anything else besides the West Racine project?

No. It was pretty much all the trouble I was getting in public really wasn't trouble, he was helping. He was helping behind the scenes, he said, "I'm doing everything I can, we're going to get it, I think we're going to get it done, keep spending your money."

Okay. Did -- did you ever -- did you ever -were you ever asked to go to his office to talk to him about the West Racine project?

I spoke to John in his office a few times. I spoke -- he called -- Monte had come and taken me out of a council meeting one time, was sitting in, God, along one of the aisles there talking to another guy. Monte tapped me on the shoulder, brought me back into John's office Page 97

1 during a council meeting. I don't know if it 2 was a break, maybe, I don't remember exactly 3 what it was, but I remember there was a kid 4 that Brett Oglesby. I remember this guy's 5 name, he had put a proposal on or he discussed 6 some real estate venture that he wanted to do 7 right before my -- before my presentation went 8 on and -- and there was a lot of union guys 9 there because I had signed a PLA that we were 10 going to build it all union and so there was a 11 lot of guys speaking on my behalf, pro-project, 12 and they were all up in arms because that was 13 getting killed again, and everybody -- people 14 were -- politicians -- John was telling the 15 union guys that this deal was going to go 16 through too.

17 Q At this city council meeting.

18 A At all -- forms of communication between John 19 and the union guys was John was pro my project 20 and it was going to happen, so John -- I go in 21 John's office over there, there's all kinds of 22 ruckus going outside, union guys, there's black 23 people were mad because of this Oglesby thing 24 and John said, "I got a room full of black 25 people that want to kill me," and da-da-da,

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"tell your guys, your union," I said, "John, they're not my union guys, they don't work for me." I said, "I hire them. They don't even care. I could be purple and as long as I give them work they're pro my project, doesn't matter, okay," I said, "I can't tell these guys, heads of union how to react to you telling us no."

Well, did he bring you in -- did he bring you into his office before your presentation or after your presentation?

It was after, after I got another no.

Okay. What did he say about the -- the other project that was being proposed, the one from -We didn't discuss that other than, because that had got shot down too and I don't really know if it's warranted or not, I don't know the details behind that, maybe it was warranted, maybe it wasn't a viable project, you know, I'm not saying that -- that a no for that project was -- was wrong or right, but there was people that assumed that it was because he was black or they were saying that it was because he was black, and they were up in arms about that and

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and like I said -Do you know what the project -- go ahead.

No, I don't -- I don't know the details about his project. I talked to him a couple times just at council meetings, you know, but nothing -- nothing in detail.

All right. When you were running into problems with your West Racine project you were still operating the BP gas station?

Correct.

And you still had your Class B license?

Yes. I don't remember if it was right about -we already had it because John was -- Gary Becker wasn't there when we had it, so we still had it, yeah.

But you had your Class B license after Dickert had won the election for mayor.

Yeah. We had it before he won.

Okay.

We still had it, we retained it after that too.

Did you, after he, Dickert became mayor did you have any problems in retaining your license, your liquor license?

No, not in particular. We have a Class B license in a store which quite a few people

have now, but we might have been one of the first ones to have, so we were getting police visits at 11:00 at night saying we were doing stuff wrong and asking and telling us to shut down and then we'd get an apology from the police department the following morning, you know.

Explain that. What do you mean, you getting police visits and then an apology?

Police officer come to shut us down one night and it wasn't his fault, you know, I had talked to him on the phone. I was on vacation at the time, I told him, I said, "We'll shut it down, tomorrow we'll figure it out," and I said, "but you're wrong, you don't really" -Why was he there trying to shut your -Got a call that I was selling liquor after 9:00, and I was, but the license allows us to sell to midnight.

All right.

So...

So under license you are allowed to sell to midnight.

Correct. The officer was not an expert in licensing, so I didn't expect him to be and I Page 101

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wasn't mad at him and -- but somebody told him that we were doing something inappropriate and sent them there.

Did he say who he got his information from?

Supervisor said they got a call from the city, so city clerk's office, some alderman, you know, I don't know. I -- there was -- there was -- there were -- there were aldermen at the time fishing around us all the time, nonstop.

What aldermen?

Dave Maack was pretty harassing.

In what way?

Constantly looking into our licensing, asking for paperwork. I'd get calls from people that the city -- not every alderman hated us, so they would be -- I'd get calls from the aldermen saying, asking for files and looking for review of licensing and, you know, asking if we can revoke your license, things like that.

Were you having any police contact during this time frame, meaning were you having incidents taking place at your store?

Just those ones, those visits, it was always late at night, it was always somebody that was

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not knowledgeable about, you know, it wasn't the officer's job to be well spoken on licensing, so...

So the police showed up on more than one occasion?

It was a couple of times, I'm pretty sure, yeah.

And you said one, they -- they showed up, said that you were selling liquor past 9:00 -Correct.

-- and you were supposed to shut it down.

Correct.

What were the other occasions about?

Same thing, I think, somebody called and said -- we have various complaints that we were selling liquor to little kids. We spent a ton of money on software to make sure that we scan and nobody gets, you know, we don't do that and if somebody gets caught doing it, even if it's an accident, they're terminated.

Were these complaints that were made to the police department?

MR. STUART: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: Yes, they were made to

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the police department, yeah. Ultimately the police department was the one to try to enforce it or stop it or...

BY MR. SANDERS: Did the police department ever tell you or anybody from the police department ever tell you who the complaints were being made by?

Yeah, I believe so. It was -- it was an apologetic conversation from higher up the following morning after one of the incidents.

Who? Who did you talk to?

I don't remember, it was a shift commander at the time, whatever -- I wasn't, like I said, I was in Florida when that big one happened and they shut us down.

So you got a call the next morning from a shift commander?

Yeah. It was the next morning. It was immediately after because he apologized and he wanted me to put a claim into the city attorney's office for losses, and I said we didn't lose anything significant and I said it was a misunderstanding, I said, so I'm not going to put a claim into the city attorney's office for...

Well, you mentioned Alderman Maack that was looking at your license.

Right.

Okay.

The mayor was looking into my licensing too, so...

The who?

The mayor.

Mayor Dickert?

Correct.

How do you know that?

Other aldermen were telling me that he was.

What other aldermen was telling you he was looking at your license?

At the time Mike Shields, I'm trying to go back to the roster. There's a lot of people that were telling me stuff. They were just good, good aldermen. I mean, I don't -- I don't -I'm trying to go back and see who was elected at the time.

Did anybody tell you why or why they thought the mayor was looking at your license?

No. I mean, the guys across the street were going bazerko because I just slashed their sales by 80 percent, so everybody felt bad for Page 105

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these poor guys across the street, and it was nothing personal, okay, so business is business, so you know, if I build a bigger, better place and, you know, wherever that's, you know, that's how it works, but everybody felt sympathetic to these guys and were trying to slow me down, so, and I know that was -that was the case.

All right. You mentioned other aldermen looking at your license besides Maack. What other aldermen?

Maack was the big one. I know Helding looked into it.

How do you know Helding looked into it?

Other people were, other aldermen were telling me so.

Did you ever -And then at the time we still, Zach was still in favor with Dickert so they were saying things in front of Zach all the time. They just assumed that Zach was on -- was not honorable, I guess, and worked, you know, was their player and I was just the guy that was going to pay the bills.

So you were receiving information from Zach

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Williams as well.

Yeah.

That the alderman and the mayor were looking into your license.

Correct.

Did -- did any of these aldermen ever come to your store?

Oh, yeah, we had a lot of visits. We had Q.A. Shakoor was trying to cool off the situation quite often. He used to visit. He was a nice guy.

What do you mean cool off the situation?

Well, I don't know if he was -- he just didn't -- was -- people were trying to stop what was happening to me, you know, without being, you know, overly forcible, let's put it that way. Just, you know, they saw what was going on and...

Now, do you recall any of the specific aldermen that were looking into your license coming into your gas station?

Oh, I mean, I know we have visits from quite a few aldermen, you know, pretty regularly. A lot of them were customers, but I know Spangenberg run through my store in front of my

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mom and yelled at my mom one day. I don't know

2

why you'd yell at my mother, but he did. He

3

was a pretty irate little guy when he was mad.

4 Q

Did any of the aldermen --

5 A

Just lots of aldermen would have been through

6

the store.

7 Q

Did they ever come into your store as

8

noncustomers but just to look around?

9 A

How do you tell if they're having a gyro

10

sandwich at the same time if they're there,

11

they're looking around or having a sandwich.

12

I'd say, almost say three quarters of the

13

aldermen in Racine have been through our store

14

at one time.

15 Q 16

Anybody comment on your operation on what you were doing, what you were selling?

17 A

No, no. Dave Maack was telling me how he was,

18

he loved our operation. At the same time he

19

was trying to renege or license.

20 Q

What about Helding, you said Helding was

21

looking into your license? Did he ever come

22

into the store?

23 A

I'm sure -- yeah, he told me, yeah, because I

24

remember him commenting about the French fries

25

one time, how he liked our French fries.

Wisneski was through our store, he used to come in with his son and grab food. Terry McCarthy used to come through with his family and grab food. Sandy Weidner has been through there.

Jim Kaplan's been through there and Mozol buys his gas there. There's a lot of guys that, you know, it's -- it's a nice store and in a high traffic spot.

All right. Did you -- you had a Class B license to sell liquor, beer, and wine. Did you ever become a member of the Racine tavern -We've been a member of the tavern league for years and years and years, all the restaurants.

Did you ever attend fundraisers for Dickert through the tavern league?

No. Been invited, but no.

What do you mean been invited to them?

They've asked me to -- I mean, people have asked me to attend fundraisers, you know, early on, but no, I never.

Specifically for Dickert or for others?

Probably specifically for Dickert. I mean, I've been invited to a lot of things, but I don't usually -- I try not to -- if we need Page 109

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help we need help, but I'm not big on showing up at parties.

It's an hour. Why don't we take our break and just for scheduling purposes, Bill, I don't think I have that many more questions.

MR. STUART: I know that you have timing -MR. DEVINE: I have some timing issues, so if I could just focus on the Monte thing I'll be done quickly.

MR. SANDERS: You mean jump in?

MR. DEVINE: If it's a good time for transition, yes, if you want to keep going. I just can't -- I've got a 1:00 mediation.

MR. SANDERS: Okay. You want to take a short break or just keep pressing forward?

MR. RICHARDS: Let's take a short break.

(Short break was taken.)

BY MR. SANDERS: Mr. Tousis, now, ultimately the West Racine project died; is that correct?

Correct.

And you never lost your Class B license; is that correct?

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No, never lost it.

Now, in 2011 did you participate or support anybody in the 2011 mayoral campaign?

Not financially, no.

Okay.

I had somebody I wanted to win.

Who did you support in that campaign?

Eric Marcus.

Why did you support Eric Marcus?

It was the only opposition to our current mayor.

To Mayor Dickert?

Yes. All right. Did you -- did you pledge any money to Marcus in terms of contribution?

No, never gave him a dollar.

All right. Do you know a person by the name of Boyd Frederick?

I know Boyd. I met him -- I actually, I met him from -- from Dickert, but I don't really -I spoke to Boyd probably twice in the last five years.

How did you meet him through Dickert?

He was probably at that party, I would imagine, when I met him.

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What party?

At the election night party.

The election night party?

Yeah.

Did you ever do any business with Boyd Frederick?

No, no.

He ever try to assist you or did you ever have him assist you in the West Racine project?

No. I don't know if he did anything for Zach, but no, I didn't have Boyd.

Okay. Now, in the past several months have you had, or first of all, do you know a person by the name of Penny Sharp?

I know who Penny is. I know Penny. I knew her from her husband Scott originally.

How do you know Scott sharp?

Well, somebody introduced him to me years and years ago. I haven't seen Penny and Scott -Penny helped me on a completely nonrelated issue because she had been in the particular business, but that was the only time I really had anything to do with Penny and maybe -maybe I was at one meeting with -- it was a lot of people at this meeting for Eric Marcus.

Actually, I wasn't even there for Marcus. I was there for somebody else and Marcus was there and Penny was there. All the union people were there.

Was it a political meeting?

Yeah, it was a political meeting, yeah.

For a campaign or fundraiser?

I was there with Jim Ladwig.

Okay.

So for Jim at the time, county exec, former county exec.

Do you know Jim Spodick?

Yeah, he's a customer of ours, yeah, but outside of that I never had a conversation with the guy.

Now, have you, in this latest election, the 2015 mayoral election, did you support anybody in that?

No. Didn't even touch it.

Made no contributions?

No. All right. Zach Williams, have you had much contact with Zach Williams since the conclusion of the West Racine project?

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maybe.

What about?

Nothing in particular. Maybe anything going on with you, anything going on, you know, that, usually the answer is nothing, so...

Did you guys communicate or talk about this -this case, this matter, this federal case?

A few times, yeah, very rare, briefly because up to this point nothing much has happened, so...

Now, did there come a point in time where you talked to law enforcement about the information that you have about Mayor Dickert?

Law enforcement?

Yes. No, I never spoke to law enforcement.

U.S. Attorney's Office?

Oh, sorry, yes, yeah, they contacted me, yes.

Who contacted you?

Department of Justice, FBI. Did you sit down and talk with them?

I did, yes.

Was your attorney present?

My attorney was present.

Were you asked to sign any document before

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you -- before you talked to them?

I don't -- I don't recall. I really don't recall. Before I talked to them?

Do you recall -Sign a document?

Do you recall -- do you recall reviewing a profer agreement -Yes. -- with your lawyer?

Yes. Do you know what the profer agreement said or what it was about?

In the short, just protected me from any prosecution or wrongdoing regarding anything to do with this case.

Anything, any conditions on your part?

That I just told them the truth and all the truth.

Okay. Who was present at that meeting? You said somebody from the Department of Justice?

Department of Justice, was a couple of people from the Department of Justice, or was it -MR. RICHARDS: I can't.

BY MR. SANDERS: Can't ask your lawyer.

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I'm sorry. I think it was three people were there. I don't remember if two were FBI, one was FBI, two were from DOJ. Did you tell them the truth that day you talked to them?

Yes. Are you telling the truth today?

Of course.

Nothing further at this time.

EXAMINATION

BY MR. DEVINE: For how long have you known Monte Osterman?

Got to be 13, 14 years, maybe.

Were you introduced to Mr. Osterman because of the construction work you were doing?

Yeah, just -- it wasn't too many people at one time doing granite around the area, so he was one of the few, so...

Did you approach him then to do work for you?

I did originally, I did. Actually, I was referred to him by Joan Cecchini who passed away. She did interior decorating for my family and she had used Monte and when I asked her who she used she referred me to Monte at the time.

So he did some work in some of the 15 or so homes that you constructed?

Yeah, he probably did two or three houses for me.

And was that based on you approaching him and asking him to perform the work?

Yeah, he bid the work, just him, and might have got three or four bids for granite at the time and he did the work, he ended up winning the work, so...

And winning the work meaning that his was the bid that you accepted?

Correct.

Was his always the lowest bid?

On those jobs that he won, yes. He wasn't always the lowest. He didn't win all my granite work.

Any other interaction that you would have had with Mr. Osterman up to the time you're talking to him about your home for any other process?

Monte always had something, some kind of concoction going on. He asked me to find investors for his building on Highway 20 he was trying to buy, he was selling hundred thousand dollar shares in this business that he was Page 117

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going to create a university to teach everybody how to do granite and they were going to send everybody. There was always something brewing with Monte that he needed something.

So Monte had ideas and he would approach you occasionally -I think he approached everybody.

In town.

Yeah.

All right. Did you ever invest in any -No. -- of Monte -- you've got to wait for me to finish my question.

Did you ever invest in any of Monte's schemes?

No, no.

And as they were being presented to you did you ever find any of the suggestions that he was making ones that you thought could be profitable?

Any of his ideas could be -Yes. No, I don't believe any of them could have been profitable. They were too -- they were too big and grand and in long shot to, you know, I

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never found anything but a lot of work to -- to work, so...

All right. Apparently you approached him to do the granite work in a house you were constructing for yourself?

Correct.

Where was that house going to be built?

Off of Four Mile Road Road, Short Road.

Did you build that house?

Yes. And did Mr. Osterman do the granite work?

No. About when is that house going into construction?

It's -- it's been built.

No, no, I understand.

Oh. When is it going into construction? What's the time frame that we're working with?

It was probably in the frame stages at the time when I talked to Monte.

And so what date would that have been?

'08, '09. I don't remember.

And when was the building actually completed?

'08. End of '08, '09, something in that range.

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When was this contribution that you suggest, using the jar that had been provided to you?

It was days before the special election.

And what's the date for that?

That I couldn't recall. It was a special election thing, threw me off a little bit. It wasn't during normal cycle.

And is the contribution that you make at that time the only time you've ever contributed to a political campaign?

No. We've contributed to many campaigns.

Monte was not involved at all in the jar or in the $2,000 that was presented in the jar, fair?

Yeah, it was -- he didn't have any involvement with me. I don't know if he knew about it or not, but as far as interaction with me goes, no.

And with respect to your interaction here, you were the source of funds but not involved in any of the detail with respect to the funds, fair?

As far as how it was used?

Yes. Yeah, I have no idea how it was used, no.

And you have no idea of who may have known

about this contribution beyond Zach and apparently Dickert.

No. Monte thanked me for it, so Monte and the mayor knew about it.

They knew that you had make a contribution.

Correct.

But beyond that when they thanked you for it what specifically did Monte say?

Just thanked me for, you know, giving John cash and that was the short. That conversation was short.

And specifically what do you recall him saying?

Thanking, thanking me for supporting him and that was about it. I mean, we had, you know, nonpolitical short conversation probably after that.

And so it was thank you for the support that you provided.

Thanking me for the money.

So he specifically used a word?

Uh-huh. Thanked me for the jar in particular.

So specifically what did he say?

He thanked me for the jar.

And so that's the -- he said those four words, "Thank you for the jar"?

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And we've had -- it was in the middle of a lot of other words, but yeah, he thanked me -What else did he say then that you recall?

Well, I don't know. We talked -- I think we were talking about meatballs and things like that too. We were at Salute's, I was eating appetizers at the time we were talking, so it was a very -- it was -- it was -- they were -it was a happy room, so it was not, you know, it was nothing to -- not the environment to really talk in particular about things like that, you know, it wasn't the point.

And did -- did Mary say anything then with respect to what happened in the campaign on the donation that you were making?

No, no, I didn't discuss that with Mary. It wasn't my place to go.

Then apparently your other interaction with Monte was his effort to obtain $1,000 from you to help somebody move to Racine to do some manufacturing?

To sponsor somebody to visit Racine to potentially sell them on the, you know, idea of manufacturing here.

And obviously that didn't have anything to do

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with the campaign.

No, no.

You mentioned a conversation about the hiring of Zach as your liaison with the city government -Yeah. Monte, sorry.

Apparently Monte said something?

Yeah, he was a little mad that I didn't hire him, and to be honest with you I didn't know Monte was a political liaison at that point.

Zach had come to me in the context of, you know, a political environment, you know, Zach, all I knew about Zach was that he worked for a campaign and that's what he did for a living.

Monte, as far as I was concerned, is friends with John and helped out on the campaign but was a granite guy.

And where did this -- tell me when the -- this conversation happened. Can you give me a date?

Oh, it would have been right after the election. I couldn't give you a specific -- it was a month or maybe a month, six weeks after.

I do remember sitting with Monte and it was warm weather. We had our outdoor tables outside the restaurant because I sat outside

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with him at one of the tables, so it was one of the earlier warm months.

Was this at Gibson's?

No, it was at Gus's.

Gus's. All right. So this conversation took place at your establishment.

Correct.

Anybody else there?

At that -- now, there's been quite a few, I probably had maybe two or three meetings with Monte at that -- at the store, so at that one particular I know for sure nobody was there because I remember sitting -- that was after -after I got on Zach about Monte harassing me for money, so that was right after that, that particular meeting, we were sitting outside.

So had you initiated the conversation?

No. Monte came specifically.

Came to you.

Yeah.

And did you understand why he was coming to you?

I did, yeah, I thought I understood what he was...

And how did you have an understanding of what

that conversation was going to be?

Now, during the conversation -No, no, I meant before it happened.

No, I didn't have -- actually, I didn't even know he was coming.

So he just showed up?

He just showed up.

And you sit down outside Gus's and what do you say?

I was listening. He was telling me -So what --- about Zach, Zach is causing all this trouble and blah, blah, blah.

I can't have blah, blah, blah, so tell me specifically what you remember.

It was Zach causing a lot of trouble within the campaign, he's going to hurt me, he's just doing it for the money, which I found was an odd statement regarding politics, but...

What else did he say?

I'm recalling right now. That was it, pretty much, that Zach -- nobody liked Zach and he wasn't going to be able to help me, he was going to hurt me, da-da-da. That was -- just telling me that Zach was creating the problems Page 125

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that I was having.

And what problems did you understand there to be?

Just very -- I was getting commitments from the mayor and showing up to meetings and they weren't happening.

Now, the election was already over with at this point in time?

Correct.

So -It was after I retained Zach and we were probably -- I started the process before -before John won, so it was, you know, in the early -- I'd say in the early third.

Okay. So in essence Monte Osterman is telling you that hiring Zach may not get you the kind of influence that you thought you were going to get.

Uh-huh, yup, that I would have gotten from him, he was very specific about that, that he would have been able to help me more.

But you never hired Mr. Osterman.

No. Then you -- you eventually terminate Mr. Osterman from performing the work on your

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home; is that right?

1 Correct.

2 So the termination of Mr. Osterman would have 3 happened sometime in 2008?

4 Being specific I couldn't tell you. It was 5 after the -- it was after the special election.

6 And the term -- and the reason for your 7 termination was what?

8 The constant -- the -- he always needed 9 something from me, always needed money for this 10 guy and then he was overcharging me for the 11 granite and I was willing to -- to, you know, 12 I'm not going to say he overcharged me, okay, 13 but he was more expensive. I know it was 14 exactly $1,500 more than the guy that did the 15 work and I was willing to, you know, turn a 16 blind eye to that and let, maybe Monte's costs 17 are different. I don't know if Monte's local, 18 the other guy was out of Illinois, so I was 19 going to forgive that and not think anything of 20 it, but it never stopped. It just -- I had to 21 push Monte away because the requests kept 22 coming for -- for Zach and for money and for 23 this idea and for that. I just, I didn't want 24 to hear it anymore. That was not my -- I'm not 25

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a financier of development for -- for my own development, yeah, but not -Not for others.

Not for others.

So did you have a conversation with Mr. Osterman where you told him that you were not going to follow through on the granite work for your home?

It was at the same meeting in front of Gus's.

So the one that he's talking about Zach -Correct.

-- also was your opportunity to tell -He was there to resell me on him. He wanted to reconnect and so, you know, and I didn't want to -So had you told him before that that you were considering not using his services on your home?

Well, I -- I told Zach to tell John, I said, "If Monte does not leave me alone I'm not going to deal with the guy. I don't want to have this constant bothering of -- of a special request for Monte. I didn't mean to sign up for this."

So this is a conversation you're having with

Zach rather than Monte?

It was with Zach, but Monte knew every bit of the conversation when he spoke with me, so...

So when you are talking to Monte Osterman then on this occasion you'd already formed or you'd already come to your conclusion that you were going to terminate him.

Correct.

So was that one of the first topics of conversation?

No. It was more Zach, was talking about Zach.

And when did you -He actually believed that everything -everything that was happening, me terminating Monte, me not wanting to do -Well, now -It was all to do with Zach.

When during the course of this conversation did you introduce the topic that said you're not going to do my work?

Probably halfway through the conversation. I know we left it at that.

And now, were there other meetings that you had with Mr. Osterman after that?

After that, no.

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You had a meeting with Van and Dickert and apparently the topic was Dickert wanting you to reconsider your termination of Monte from your project?

The original, the purpose of the meeting was to meet about West Racine.

I understand.

That's why Van was involved in it, because Van didn't really have anything to do with me and John, per se, but Van was interactive with the project because he lives -Right.

Right.

But the topic -The topic became Monte, yeah.

All right. And are you or do you have any facts to suggest that your termination of Mr. Osterman from performing the granite work on your home had any influence on the city's determination with respect to your West Racine project?

Do I have facts?

Facts.

So would that be a purpose -- a person's testimony? Would that be considered a fact or

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would that be considered evidence?

2 Q

Well, tell me what you consider testimony.

3 A

So conversations that Monte's had with other

4

politicians.

5 Q

And you were present at these considerations?

6 A

No, I wasn't present, no.

7 Q

What facts then are you suggesting?

8 A

Monte had brokered a deal between John and

9

Alderman Spangenberg that Spangenberg agreed to

10

not run for mayor if my project was killed and

11

then -- and then Monte was the go-between quite

12

often between Spangenberg and John because

13

there was various meetings between, that Monte

14

had with John about my project, so...

15 Q

So you had apparently spent money to obtain

16

influence, I assume that's why you gave the

17

money initially?

18 A

No.

19 Q

No?

20 A

No.

21 Q

You had expectations that your project in West

22

Racine would get favorably analyzed --

23 A

No.

24 Q

-- and pushed.

25 A

No.

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thousands, and it's been completely reported.

But nonetheless you had spent this money, but in the end your -- your cause and effect analysis is that Dickert submarined your West Racine project, even though you'd given him this money.

Yeah. He could take the money out of the equation completely, but Dickert submarined the project. It's got nothing to do with the money, no.

So there was never any influence that was purchased because of the contributions that you were making.

No, it wasn't for purchasing power or, in some sort.

And the conversations that you had with Osterman then were conversations concerning the work that he was going to do on your house and you ultimately became, you were fed up with Monte and Monte's -Yeah.

-- approach?

Monte's conversations, those were very typical conversations even if you took John out of the equation. Monte always had something cooking

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Well, then tell me.

I wanted to make sure that John, with all the power that John had, and as evil as he is, was not evil towards me and just allowed the project to go ahead through on his own merits, because it was a significant investment and there was no reason that it would be turned around.

And I guess then obviously since it's failed Dickert didn't have the influence that you hoped for.

Dickert had the influence to make it fail.

So you gave a campaign contribution well in excess of the amounts allowed understanding that it would never get reported.

I assumed that were going to be reported. I didn't care if it got reported. It was a contribution to, it could have been my father, my mother, and myself. There was no reason to have it unreported because everybody was allowed in my family to do a max and we would have been under the max between my father and myself and my mother, so there was no reason for me to -- to hide the fact. I've given contributions to Governor Walker, multiple

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that he needed money for, so...

And you never believed that Monte ever had any

3

kind of influence in any of the process that he

4

suggested.

5 A

No. Monte had significant influence in the

6

process.

7 Q

Well, he called himself vice-mayor at some

8

point?

9 A

It's irrelevant on what he calls himself, but

10

he did have influence.

11 Q

You find that humorous.

12 A

That he called himself vice-mayor?

13 Q

Yes.

14 A

I didn't know there was such a position.

15 Q 16

But nonetheless his aspiration to that kind of position you found humorous.

17 A

Yeah, I do find it humorous, yeah. It

18

doesn't -- that doesn't negate the fact that I

19

do believe he has influence. The term itself

20

is pretty funny.

21 Q

So what -- what -- what has ever happened where

22

you believe that Monte influenced a decision?

23 A

What has ever happened?

24 Q

Yeah.

25 A

Other than my project being terminated?

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So you think that that was Mr. Osterman's influence.

I think it was a combination of -- of John and Spangenberg and Osterman, yes.

Okay. And Osterman wasn't part of the government at that point.

He was county supervisor.

But he didn't have any say over what was going on in West Racine.

I'm not a politician. I really don't know.

County supervisor maybe he did, I don't know.

Any other instance where you believe that Mr. Osterman had an influence over government?

No, not particularly dealings with myself, no.

All I can speak for is myself, that's all.

Okay. Have you talked to the attorneys that represent the plaintiffs in this case and discussed your testimony on any occasion?

No, never. Oh, the plaintiffs?

Yeah.

Yes, I have, yes, I'm sorry. I thought you were talking about the -- yes.

When was the first time you would have had a conversation with them?

Early -- early this year, maybe. Date specific

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I don't know.

Did you talk to them about the interaction that you had with Osterman?

Did I talk to them about it? I don't -Yeah.

I don't recall, I really don't recall.

Did you make any notes of this visit?

No, no.

Did anyone who was there make notes?

I couldn't tell you, I don't know.

Do you know who was present?

My attorney.

Anyone else?

Sanders and maybe another attorney from the plaintiffs said.

And they asked you questions about -Yes. -- what has happened here?

Questions -About the circumstances of this particular case, they -Yeah, they asked me a few questions, yes.

Do you recall them asking you any questions with respect to Osterman, Osterman's influence or Osterman's participation?

Yes, they did ask me some questions about Osterman.

And what did they ask?

Same, very similar questions of what you just asked me, what level of influence did I think Monte had and what interaction I had and reasons I had to believe so.

Now, as I understand it you did not give Osterman any money -No. -- at any point in time.

No. Is that true?

Correct. I'm sure he'd still be my friend.

Pardon?

I'm sure we'd still have a relationship if I gave it to him.

In your conversation with the federal people were there questions concerning Osterman and his involvement in this process -Yes. -- do you recall?

It was questions about Osterman. I don't -the process regarding my West Racine project?

Yeah.

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I don't know if it was specific to -- I do believe we touched on it, yes.

Did you ever ask Mr. Osterman to approach anyone in government to attempt to influence a decision?

No. Monte was offering up information to me about Spangenberg in particular, but that was Monte's way of showing the level of influence that he had to me to -- to justify giving him money.

But you never did.

No. I knew better.

And the service then that Mr. Osterman was providing you was information?

He thought he should -- he thought -- they -Monte tries to show you the level of influence that he has, and he does have an influence, but I was not -- I was done with the ATM machine game, because it would never stop. It would just never stop if you partake in that, so I was done with that. Right or wrong or if it hurt me or it would have helped me, I just was not going to continue on paying to do business in Racine. It wasn't -- wasn't selling rockets to the Palestinians, I was trying to run a

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business, so there was no reason for me to continue to pay to go to work every day, so...

Well, but these were conversations that you were having with Monte over his pipe dreams of doing something in the county?

Well, if you want to call it a pipe dream or an excuse to get $1,000 from me, because if Monte would have said I needed $2,700 to bring a guy to town to put him up and feed him and hire a car to bring him around that might have been a little believable, but for $1,000 you really don't do too much. With the story that he needed $1,000 to bring a guy to Racine to spend millions of dollars in investment here for $1,000 was pretty incredible to me.

So you thought he was -- he was making -He needed $1,000.

And he was asking you for that by creating a story about -Correct.

-- bringing someone in.

Correct.

So he was looking for the money for himself.

Correct. That's what my interpretation of it was.

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Okay.

Because there's, Racine County Economic Development Corporation, I'm sure, if it was a viable business, I'm sure somebody would have picked up the tab for a thousand bucks.

Q All right. Great. That's what I have.

Thanks.

MR. STUART: Off the record for a minute.

(A discussion held off the record.)

(Exhibit Nos. 212 - 214 marked for identification.)

EXAMINATION

BY MR. STUART: Q Mr. Tousis, my name is Bill Stuart. I represent all of the defendants other than one defendant in the action, so I represent the City of Racine, Mayor Becker, former Mayor Becker, current Mayor Dickert, and a few aldermen that have been named in the lawsuit as well as John LeGath and Mark Levine. Basically the only person I don't represent is Mr. Nicholson, who's represented by Mr. Devine.

I'll apologize to you now, but it's somewhat of the nature going second that you jump all over the place because I'm following

up on what Mr. Sanders had covered with you this morning. But let me start over, though, with showing you three documents that we marked. The first one's Exhibit 212, Exhibit 213 and Exhibit 214. You can take a look at those while I'm -MR. SANDERS: Starting with 212?

MR. STUART: Yeah.

Let's start with Exhibit 212, have you ever seen that document before?

Yes. Do you recognize that as one of the subpoenas that was served on you in this case?

Yes. And did you understand when you received this document that you were asked to provide documents in connection with this case?

Yes. And those documents were identified on the rider to the subpoena which is shown on pages 2 and 3?

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subpoena?

Yes. Okay. Did you understand that some of these requests of you were seeking communications that you had with various people?

Yes. I'll give you an example, like under Item 4 the communications between you and Zach Williams?

Number 4?

Yes. It's Eric Marcus.

Are you looking at 212?

Number 14, 212, is Zach Williams.

Can I see your 212, please?

4.

MR. RICHARDS: Number 4 is Eric Marcus.

BY MR. STUART: I think you're looking at the wrong page. If you look at page 2.

Okay.

I think you were looking at the definitions.

If you look at number 4 on page 2 of the rider of Exhibit 212 do you see now that it's asking for communications between you and Zach

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Williams?

Correct.

And that's just an example of what I'm trying to get at. You have an e-mail address, correct?

Yes. And it's that BP address?

Yes, yeah.

All right. What is your e-mail address? betterdaybp@yahoo.com.

And have you used that e-mail address for the last couple years?

Yeah, for quite some time.

All right. Did you ever communicate by e-mail with Mr. Williams?

Yes. Did you search your e-mail to determine whether you have any e-mails with Mr. Williams?

Yes, I do have e-mails with him.

So when you got the subpoena you went through your e-mail and you looked for communications with the various people in the subpoena and you didn't find a single e-mail?

No, I did find them, but from my understanding it was regarding the -- to do with regarding to

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the case or to any of the other defendants or I never, other than normal business of what I hired Zach to do, never discussed political things with him or...

Okay. What you're saying is you didn't find anything that related, the discussion with Mr. Williams that related to a plaintiff or a defendant.

Yeah, never, I mean, I really haven't had anything to do with any of the, other than knowing Zach and -- and helping Marcus very minimally.

So would most of your communications with Mr. Williams deal with the proposed development, I think Mr. Sanders was describing as the West Racine development?

Correct.

Okay. Did you find e-mails in your system relating to those types of communications?

Yes. Those, yeah.

Okay.

There's many, but it was all about meeting times and, you know, drawings and it was very clean interaction between myself and with Zach that was hired to do with the city, but no --

no -- nothing to do with -- I even searched Zach, Dickert, I did a combination of stuff and nothing popped up, other than we got a meeting with Dickert regarding da-da-da-da-da.

So you did a key word search.

Correct.

And you didn't find any e-mails relating to this lawsuit at all?

No, zero.

Or relating to any plaintiff or defendant in this lawsuit.

No, yeah.

Other than Mr. Dickert.

Correct.

And are you saying that the communications in your e-mails that relate to Mr. Dickert, that those involved the West Racine project?

Right. Typical duties of a mayor regarding, you know, drawings and getting, nothing out of the ordinary, nothing off -- out of the lane, nothing.

Okay.

To be honest with you most 99 percent of the people on the list I never met. Janice Hand I haven't seen since I was -Page 145

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Okay.

-- 19, things like that.

You met Penny Sharp in the past.

Yeah.

And did you have any e-mails with Ms. Sharp?

No. You met Scott Sharp in the past.

Once.

Okay. Did you have any e-mails with him?

No. Any e-mails with Mr. Spodick?

No. Any e-mails with Melvin Hargrove?

No. Or Edward Deal?

No. So we, in Exhibit 213 we had a communication from your attorney. Mr. Richards is your lawyer, correct?

A Uh-huh, yup.

Q And he's responding to this subpoena and effectively telling us that you don't have any documents responsive to that subpoena other than in connection with number 4 where there may have been a retainer agreement with

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Mr. Williams.

Correct.

Do you have that agreement?

I -- I was -- been divorced since then and left an office full of stiff so it's somewhere there, but it does not exist anymore. I'm not sure there was -- and I asked Zach for a copy, if he could dig it up on his PC, but he didn't -- he didn't have a copy either.

When did you ask Mr. Williams for a copy?

Oh, I don't know. It was probably shortly after the request was made of me.

So did you talk to him about the fact that you're being deposed in this action?

Not in particular, no.

You just asked him if he had a copy of the retainer agreement.

Yes. Nothing else?

Yes. I assume was the written contract between you and Mr. Williams?

It was a written contract, yes.

And that was for his work on the West Racine development?

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Correct. It was a partnership with another communication company at the time. It was, I don't remember the name, it was -- it was contracted through an LLC that he was part of and it was another man that does liaison work in Milwaukee.

Is that Goff Communications?

Correct.

So you entered into a contract with Goff Communications.

Correct.

And did you pay Mr. Williams on an hourly basis?

It was a retainer agreement. It was supposed to be a flat, flat cost and plus expenses, so...

What -- how -- what were Mr. -- what were the services that Mr. Williams was to provide under that agreement?

He was just going to act as the liaison for any governmental, you know, approvals that we needed, things of that nature, basically he was going to go to -- he was going to be heading up any contact with the city.

So he was your point person with the city --

Correct.

-- of Racine?

Correct.

And that's what the contract stated.

I don't remember if it specifically stated that or if it was -- I don't remember the exact wording, I don't remember. It's been a little bit.

Was there a term to the contract?

As far as the payment goes?

No, in terms of how long he was supposed to provide these services.

I don't believe it was specifically addressed as far as a time limitation or something like that. Basically calculated X amount of meetings, X amount of levels, and he came up with a proposal and I thought it was fair, so...

It was a flat rate meaning you paid him one time.

Correct. Oh, no, it might have been X amount of dollars down with, you know, up front -- if I remember correctly the first check I wrote to him was $1,500, so...

Do you recall any other checks writing to him?

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Yeah. I'm sure I did, but the one, the first one for some reason is in my head somewhere.

You said the contract was with Goff Communications, correct?

I believe so, yeah.

So at the time -I know he was representing Goff at the time when I signed up with him.

Representing or being employed by? Was he employed -I don't know if he was a partner. I don't know if he was an employee. I don't know, but he was -- he was a representative of Goff.

Is it possible that you still have a copy of documents responsive to the subpoenas in your office at your old home?

Actually, there's no more office at the old home, so...

Did you guys sell the house?

It's empty right now, so...

And you don't know what happened to the documents that were in your office?

Don't know what happened to a lot of things that I owned in the house, so...

Let's turn do Exhibit 214, please?

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214?

Yeah. Do you recognize this as a second subpoena that was served in this case?

Yes. And did you receive this subpoena?

Yes. And at some point did you look through and determine whether or not you had any documents that are responsive to this subpoena?

We -MR. RICHARDS: This is the one I texted you.

THE WITNESS: You texted me, but did we respond to this one?

MR. RICHARDS: I asked you and you said it was the same and you didn't have anything.

THE WITNESS: I'll look through. The answer would be correct, I -- a lot of these names that -- there was no interaction between Waangard and the Schaefer property and things like that, so I didn't have Waangard. Waangard wasn't even involved until I went to West Racine.

BY MR. SANDERS:

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defendant.

Well, why don't we start at -I mean, I would have -- I could give you some construction stuff, but that would be about it.

I never -- most of the stuff I had nothing to do.

Okay. Can you after today's deposition, can you give Mr. Richards a copy of any e-mails you have that you think are responsive -Yeah.

-- to the subpoena?

I can tell you right now the only thing I would have is regarding construction stuff so probably wouldn't even mention Monte, Dickert, or -- but I can give you copies of whatever I can pull up for you.

Okay. And generally it sounds like you have stuff relating to the West Racine project, right?

Right, construction in general from West Racine to Schaefer property I can give you.

Do you have any written communications with anyone at the U.S. Department of Justice or the FBI? No, I don't have anything.

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Okay. Just generally characterize the subpoena as asking for documents -I know for sure there's not a single -- never had an e-mail with anybody on number 10 anywhere.

Okay. Did you ever have any e-mails with, well, you understand that the development team we had defined as Mr. Leffler, Ms. Sorensen, and Mr. Williams?

Mr. Leffler and Ms. Sorensen and Mr. Williams had nothing to do with the Schaefer property at all.

Okay. Did they have anything to do with the West Racine project?

No. We defined that as the Washington Boulevard property?

Yes. Did you have communications with any of those three individuals about that development?

I'm sure, that I might have, yes. I don't have any communications between myself and the Department of Justice, zero. I don't have any copies of any statements I've given regarding Dickert or Monte Osterman or any other

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Before you had mentioned a statement. Have you

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given any statements in connection --

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I have given a --

4 Q

Sir, you have to let me finish my question. I

5

know it's kind of hard, but you have to let me

6

finish my question.

7

Have you given any statements relating to

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any issue involving this lawsuit?

9 A

No, not that I -- to who? DOJ?

10

MR. RICHARDS: Yeah.

11

THE WITNESS: Yeah, I said that

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already.

13

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the question.

15

BY MR. STUART:

16 Q

I'll clarify. Other than the time that you had

17

gave an interview to the DOJ --

18 A

Right.

19 Q

-- have you given any statements to anyone

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else?

21 A

No.

22 Q

The time that you met with Mr. Sanders was

23

there a court reporter present for that?

24 A

No.

25 Q

Okay. And is that the only time that you met

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with anyone from Mr. Sanders, from Mr. Sanders's office, was that one meeting?

I believe it was only one meeting, yes.

And I'm sorry, when was that, approximately?

It was cold. It was previous to -- prior to Christmas?

So 2014?

Could be. I have been busy, busy the last few years, so I apologize, but yeah, it would have to be, yeah, it would be 2014.

And that meeting lasted for how long?

A couple hours.

More than two?

No. About two hours?

Yeah, hour and a half, maybe, I don't know.

You ever spoken to an individual named Santo Galati?

Santo Galati, yes -- but no, actually no, not regarding this. Santo did private investigation work on my divorce, that's it.

How did you hear about Mr. Galati?

My attorney.

I'm going to reserve the right to bring Mr. Tousis back based on what we see in the

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And I'm sorry, how late are you -Weekdays 9:00.

So weekends until 10 p.m. and the weekdays until 9 p.m.

Correct.

Do you have any security at the Gus's restaurant, Gus's Gyros?

Physical security?

Yes. No. No door man, correct?

No. Do you have a bartender?

We have a licensed bartender, yeah, correct, on premise.

That's at 2100 Douglas Avenue?

Correct.

Do you consider that to be downtown Racine?

No. Can I assume that -- that neither you or your father are members of the Downtown Racine Corporation?

No, we're not members.

And are you located within BID No. 1?

I don't think so, no. Is there -- there's --

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subpoena.

Okay. Let's talk about Gus's Gyros a little bit. Do you consider that to be a restaurant?

No. I'm sorry?

My father's restaurant.

It's a restaurant.

Correct.

Yes? Yes. Okay. And it's your father's restaurant because he owns it?

He's Gus, yeah.

All right. Do you sell beer at the restaurant?

Yes. Is that the only alcohol you sell at the restaurant?

Sell liquor there too.

What are the hours of operation of the restaurant?

We're open until, 11 to 10 on the weekends and 11 to 9 on the weekdays.

So to 10 p.m.?

Yeah.

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I'm sorry, excuse me. BID No. 1, can I refer

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to Scott on this one? Is BID No. 1 Douglas

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Avenue?

4 Q

You can't actually --

5 A

I wouldn't know. I know I'm in a BID, but I

6

don't know numbers.

7 Q

You're not sure which one?

8 A

Yeah, I don't know what number it would.

9 Q

Do you believe that that BID is any way related

10

to downtown Racine?

11 A

Other than if I recall the people that have

12

taken over the Douglas Avenue BID and I've had

13

no interaction with them. I think we're on the

14

downtown BID or the downtown Racine, you know,

15

I don't know if they run both the BID and the

16

Downtown Racine Corporation or that's separate,

17

you know, I don't -- I don't -- I don't stay on

18

top of the BIDs of Racine.

19 Q

Okay. Where are you currently employed?

20 A

At my father's business.

21 Q

And you're the assistant manager, correct?

22 A

Correct.

23 Q

How long have you held that position?

24 A

Since forever.

25 Q

For the last ten years?

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Sure. It opened in '07, so eight years, seven years.

So you didn't work at the restaurant before -I was -- I was building homes at the time.

That was before the collapse.

And you called it Better Day BP, correct?

Correct.

Is that the name of the gas station?

Yes. And who owns the gas station? Is there an entity?

The physical brick and mortar is owned by my father.

Do you have any interest in the business?

I own 2 percent of the operating corporation, the management corporation.

Has that corporation paid dividends in the -in -- did that corporation pay dividends in 2009?

I don't receive any dividends.

Okay. Never have?

No. Are you at any financial risk with respect to the company, meaning have you guaranteed any loans or anything like that?

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Uh-uh.

No? No. Prior to opening Gus's it was just a restaurant on the site, correct?

Correct.

And so you converted it to be a restaurant and gas station, correct?

Correct.

And did you sell alcohol at the former restaurant?

Correct.

What was it called, Gordon's?

Gibson's.

Gibson's.

We held a license there for liquor since '89, I think.

Okay.

Had a Class B since then.

Do you understand -- were you involved at all in any of the applications in connection with either Gibson's or Gus's?

Not really in the Gibson's. That was -- there was definitely prior to my era. I was, like I said, almost 19, 20 years old.

So Gus's, were you involved in that?

Gus's, I might have been involved in, specific documents I couldn't tell you, I mean, I filled out paperwork for my father, together, but I couldn't tell you exactly what, over the years how much I filled out.

Do you understand that you have to -- you understand at least that you have to get a license from the city, correct?

Yes, I do understand that. I assume that.

Well, have you ever applied, do you know if you've ever participated in the application?

Yes, I've helped my father fill out documentation, but I've never applied myself for a license.

Is it your understanding that that license has to be renewed on a yearly basis?

Uh-huh.

Is that a yes?

Yes. And has Gus's done that? Has the company that owns Gus's renewed their Class B liquor license every year?

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filled out paperwork that pertained to licensing, but I don't typically handle it. My dad does.

(Attorney Devine exits proceedings.)

BY MR. STUART: Has there been a time -- and you got the license in approximately 2007, correct?

I would assume at the time we opened, yes.

Has there been a time where, where the business has not held a license since 2007?

I don't believe so, no.

So it's gotten its renewals every year?

Yes, I believe so.

There's been no interruption in the license since 2007 -No. -- for Gus's Cantina, correct?

Gus's Gyros.

Same answer with respect to the gas station?

Yes, it's one license.

Do you consider, just so you and I are on the same page, I'm not from Racine, is the gas station called Better Day BP? Better Day BP. And the restaurant's still Gus's Gyros?

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Correct.

So you consider them to be separate.

They're one corporation. They're both under the same management umbrella.

Do you know if -Same payroll account, same everything.

Okay. But when you're referring to Better Day BP are you referring to the gas station or -No, I typically call it -- it's -- it's the restaurant is such -- physically a small part of the -- you see pumps and a big sign and a car wash so you assume I would consider it a gas station with a restaurant operation there, but I've always referred to it as Better Day BP just the same way we always called Tower Family Restaurants growing up the restaurant, so...

Got it. So the liquor license covers both the gas station and the restaurant, correct?

Correct.

And so the answer is that neither of those licenses have been interrupted since 2007.

No, not that I know of, that I can recall, no.

Is it your understanding that there's certain rules that a licensee has to follow when they got a Class B liquor license?

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Correct.

Meaning that if you violate those rules the license can be revoked?

Sure.

You understood that, right?

It's like that.

Is it your understanding that the city sometimes will conduct compliance checks?

Been through many, yeah.

And was that true even before when you had Gibson's, were there compliance checks back then?

Sure.

The BP, Better Day BP and Gus's got the liquor license before Mayor Dickert was elected, correct?

We had a liquor license continuously I think since we opened, so even before we opened we had the license there, I'd say, since '89 or '90.

But you've opened Better Day BP and Gus's before Mayor Dickert was elected, correct?

Correct, but the license is the same corporation and operated the restaurants continuously since '89.

Fair enough. So Mayor Dickert had no involvement whatsoever in -No. -- whether the Better Day BP got a license, correct?

No. Do you currently own any interest in any bar in the City of Racine?

No. Have you ever owned an interest in any bar in the City of Racine?

Other than the bar -- well, I shouldn't even say that. My father owned the bar inside a restaurant that was at that site, but no, we never owned a bar, I've never owned anything.

A bar or another? Are you aware of which bars are at issue in this case?

To be honest with you, no. I just got divorced a week ago. That was my priority, so I've been a little busy with that. You mentioned Doug Nicholson. I'm assuming Doug's property.

Other than that -- other than that I really don't know anybody involved.

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the City of Racine?

No. Have you ever had any interest in shutting down any minority-owned business in the City of Racine?

No. Have you ever gone to a bar called Park 6?

No, never been there.

Any interest in 2009 in whether or not Park 6 continued as a business?

No. Have you ever been to a place called the Place on 6th?

No. Do you know who owns that?

That was, what's his name's, the former alderman, right? Fair, right?

Never been to his place?

Never been there.

In 2009 did you have any interest in shutting Mr. Fair's business down?

No. Have you ever been to a place called Ginger's Lounge?

No.

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In 2009 did you have any interest in shutting down Ginger's Lounge?

No. Have you ever heard of a bar called Vipers?

On the north side? It was on High Street? If that's not the one on High Street, no, I've never.

And no interest in 2009 in shutting Vipers down?

No. Is it fair to say that you never had any conversations with Mayor Dickert about any minority-owned businesses in the City of Racine?

No, never had a conversation.

You have to let me finish my question.

Is it fair to say that you've never had any discussions with Mayor Dickert about -Yes. -- any minority-owned businesses in the City of Racine?

The answer's yes.

Similarly you've never had any discussions with Mayor Dickert in which there was a discussion about closing down any minority-owned

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businesses -No. -- in the City of Racine? You had testified today that you believe that a few people had, I think you used the word "submarined" your West Racine development project.

Uh-huh.

Do you recall that testimony?

Yes. Okay. Who were the people that you believe submarined that project?

Monte and Mayor Dickert and Jim Spangenberg.

They were the key players.

And I'm sorry, what Mr. Spangenberg's first name?

Jim Spangenberg, James.

In what way do you believe that Monte Osterman submarined your West Racine development?

I didn't pay to play, so I lost, that Monte didn't receive payment from me and then he showed me what he could do when he doesn't receive payment.

What did he do?

Make sure I didn't get a building built.

How did he do that?

He brokered a deal between John -- I believe that he convinced John that it was a good idea not to allow my project to continue. I believe Monte is the one that pushed it that way.

And what evidence do you have that there was a deal between or that Mr. Osterman brokered a deal?

Another alderman telling me so and that's it.

I don't have any evidence. It's a belief.

What alderman was that?

Mike Shields.

When did that discussion occur?

Oh, I don't know, right around the same time.

The same time as what?

My West Racine project.

Your West Racine project, was that a defined period of time?

Application process to termination, yeah, that's a definitive period of time, but that's -- that's all I have as far as that, as far as definitive period of time.

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can't tell you when the first time I talked about it, when I probably talked about it the first time in '07.

Okay. With -- I'm asking about the conversation with Mr. Shields.

With Shields?

Yes. Shields had to be, oh, boy, it would have been right after they were -- it would have been right after the council meeting, the first council meeting.

Council meeting for what?

For my approval.

Approval for what?

For West Racine.

And what part of the -- what part of the approval?

To approve the option.

Option to purchase?

Correct.

Okay. So let's talk about the West Racine to just get some timelines down. When did you start the process of seeking development for the West Racine project?

Probably '08. I won't say I was seeking

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approvals, but I was seeking input.

So you were interested in this development starting in 2008?

Correct.

What portion of the year?

Springtime.

Okay. What caused -- what started the interest? What happened?

Just liked the site, it was a good site for what I wanted to do.

What was the first thing you did in order to start development of the site?

There was various conversations with Brian O'Connell when I was planning on doing the Schaefer site because what the -- what they wanted me to do, city development, was develop the Schaefer site, which I didn't want in the long run, in return for one that I would keep which would be West Racine.

Okay.

And then I was allowed, I shouldn't say allowed, but I was understood that I was going to sell the Schaefer site once it was developed.

And the Schaefer site is a different

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development, correct?

Correct.

Okay. For definition purposes the Schaefer site was in a different portion of town, isn't it?

It's further -- further up on Highway 20, further towards downtown.

Is that 1300 Washington Avenue?

Could be, yes. Sounds familiar.

And the West Racine site that we've been talking about, is that 3100 Washington Avenue?

If I recall correctly, yes.

So you have discussions with Mr. O'Donnell sometime in the spring of 2008 about the West Racine project.

Correct.

All right. What's the next thing that happens?

Well, Gary went to, Gary was arrested and then I spoke with Brian shortly after that and Brian told me that the -- because Brian wasn't really in favor of me putting a gas station on West Racine, and Brian said that it wasn't going to happen now, and then told him well, if that's not going to happen, if I'm not going to get the one that I want to keep then I don't want

to do the one that you guys want me to do, which is the Schaefer site.

So you're still talking to Mr. O'Connell.

Correct.

At some point did you submit some kind of application before the city?

I'm sure either before that or immediately or shortly after that I filled out an application.

There was so much stuff going on, they weren't accepting my applications, there was a lot of stuff going on, but at the time that I filled it out it could have been 90 days before they received it.

Okay. So at some point you submit a proposal to purchase the -- well, strike that.

The West Racine project, the property that was the subject of that project was owned by somebody other than you, correct?

Right.

Who was it owned by?

Redevelopment authority.

For the City of Racine?

The redevelopment authority. It's a completely different body. It's funded by City of Racine, but it's the redevelopment authority.

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It's not the redevelopment authority for the City of Milwaukee is my point.

Yes, for the City of Racine. I thought you meant -- it is the City of Racine. It's an arm of the City of Racine. I'm sure legally it is somehow, but I didn't know that they're -they're their own body.

All right. So you know that you have to try to get title to the site, correct?

Option.

All right. At some point you send in a proposal for an option to purchase for that site?

Are we talking about Schaefer's site or West Racine?

West Racine.

Yes. And when do you do that?

Date specific I cannot tell you.

Okay. You're not sure.

I died about a year ago physically, so...

Was that before or after Mayor Dickert's 2009 election?

The option would have been after his election.

I was given an option, I believe.

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When did you submit your proposal for the option? Was that before or after the 2009 mayoral election?

The West Racine would have been all after, anything to do with West Racine, other than conversation.

So you hadn't submitted any documents to the City of Racine in connection with the West Racine development prior to the 2009 mayoral election.

Correct.

Okay. Did you end up getting an option to purchase for the property?

Yes. Was that a signed contract?

I believe so, yes.

Okay. What happened after you got the option to purchase?

It continued up the development stages and eventually it was plugged.

Eventually plugged, meaning what?

Somebody told me that I can pick up my money and walk away, otherwise I wouldn't get the chance to pick up my money.

So it's your understanding that the city

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somehow canceled the contract after the purchase?

It's fact, yeah. I could go pick up my money and withdraw, otherwise I wouldn't get a chance to pick up my money and they would just can it.

That was exactly the specific conversation.

Who told you that?

It was the conversation between John Dickert and Ray Leffler.

So you weren't a participant in this discussion?

No. So your testimony is at some point you believe that Mr. Leffler spoke to Mr. Dickert and Mr. Dickert told him that you should come pick up your money?

Mr. Dickert said you come and pick it up right now and walk away, you'll get your money. If you don't pick it up right now and walk away you won't get your money. That was the exact gist of the conversation.

When did this discussion allegedly occur?

I couldn't begin, I couldn't tell you date specific. It's years.

Was it 2008, 2009, 2010?

Maybe, maybe '10. I don't know, but like I said, could be 9. I don't know.

So what is it that John Dickert did to submarine your project?

He said pick up the money and it's dead or don't pick up the money and it's dead, so he turned the light switch off.

What part of the development did he turn -what did he do to terminate that option to purchase?

Exactly how he terminated it, he told me to come pick up my money, okay, and the deal's dead or if I don't pick up the money the deal's dead and I don't get the money. That was exactly what he said.

Okay. In what way was he going to -- did you understand that he was going to kill the deal?

The same way he was killing it the whole time.

Which was what?

No approvals.

What entity or committee did you not receive approvals from?

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sewer that they didn't particularly know about, then these changes would not be received and John told me, and it was documented in the newspaper, that I need to spend $5 million there otherwise they wouldn't fund the TIF, the TIF. Now, there's a million and a half dollar project sitting there right now, so...

Okay. So let me just unpack that a little bit.

You said that -I need to spend 5 million --- you discovered -- you have to let me ask the question, okay?

The original killing is because I didn't spend $5 million there. They needed $5 million worth of incremental to guarantee -- I needed to sign a guarantee for $5 million and pay taxes on $5 million otherwise the deal was dead, and that changed midstream. That wasn't a -- that wasn't a request.

So your project, the project that you started with, was a $5 million deal?

No, never was. It was three, three and a half, then they told me I needed to spend five.

Did your project change at all in terms of the process?

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1 Yes, it went up in cost.

So you had more costs at the end of the process 2 3 than you did at the beginning?

4 Correct.

5 And it's -- how did John Dickert kill the 6 project in connection with this $5 million?

7 What influence did he have over that?

8 That I couldn't tell you, but he was the guy 9 who picked up the phone and told me to pick up 10 my $5,000 and the deal was dead, so how he 11 killed the patient I don't know.

12 Okay. You understand that it was the $5 13 million of value that killed the deal?

14 Do I understand it was the $5 million that 15 killed the deal?

16 Yeah.

17 No, I don't understand that.

18 Okay.

I understand that somebody said it needed to be 19 20 $5 million.

What did Alderman Spangenberg do to submarine 21 22 your deal?

23 He was a complete opponent to it.

24 So what did he specifically do to submarine 25 your deal?

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Specifically?

1 Yeah.

2 Does it need to be specific? Or is just no 3 enough, because that's what I understood, no is 4 what I received after yes.

5 (Exhibit No. 215 marked for identification.)

6 MR. SANDERS: Have we received these 7 in production?

8 MR. STUART: You didn't ask for these 9 in production.

10 (Exhibit Nos. 216 - 218 marked for identification.)

11

BY MR. STUART: 12 Q Mr. Tousis, I'm going to apologize again, we 13 have another Tousis in this case and I don't 14 mean to get that wrong. I'd like to just get 15 some dates down. I thought maybe some of these 16 documents might refresh your recollection.

17 MR. RICHARDS: I've got to use the 18 restroom. I'll be right back.

19 MR. STUART: That's fine.

20 (Short break was taken.)

21

BY MR. STUART: 22 Q Mr. Tousis, I've presented you Exhibits 215, 23 216, 217, and 218. Do you have those in your 24 hands?

25

Yes. Okay. Let's start -Do you want to label 217? Oh, there we go.

Sorry about that.

Let's start with Exhibit 215. Have you ever seen this document before?

I believe so.

You have?

Yes. Okay. Do you recognize this? Who's John Shannon?

Attorney that represented me on -On what?

On those two projects, on West Schaefer and West Racine.

And this letter is dated July 11, 2008?

Correct.

Is this represented to the Schaefer property?

I believe so, yes.

Is this a request by you or on your behalf to the city development and the RDA -Correct.

-- for an exclusive 90-day option -Correct.

-- to buy the property?

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Yes. Okay. Is Exhibit 216, what -- have you ever seen that document before?

Yes. What is that document?

It's a request for, basically it's a short paraphrased proposal for what I wanted to do at that site and what I needed to -- what I needed to do to accomplish it.

And that's the Schaefer property again, correct?

This would be, correct.

And that's 11 -- it's 1130 Washington Avenue?

Correct.

That's the Schaefer property?

Correct.

And this is a description of what you proposed to develop there?

Correct.

Is there an estimate as to what kind of value you are going to have for that site after improvement?

Yes. We used the, my current family's gas station to, as -- as a marker for that it would be at least that, we were assuming.

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Okay. So it would be an estimated market value of $1,019,000?

Right. We said that -- we expect the assessed value to be at least that much. That's -that's the $1,019,000 is my family's site on the north side.

Okay. And it's describing how much money you were going to put into the site, right?

Correct.

That's about 2.3 to 2.4 million?

Correct.

Is this the same type of gas station/restaurant proposal that you currently have for Gus's and BP? Are you talking about the north side, my existing site?

Yes. Similar, yes.

It's a similar type of development?

Similar.

Where there's a gas station and a restaurant?

Correct.

Did the city ultimately give you an option to purchase for this site?

They did, yeah.

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And is that what's shown as the resolution in Exhibit 217?

Yes. And there's a description here that you're going to get an option to purchase for a period of 90 days from the date of the resolution?

Correct.

And the date of the resolution's October 1, 2008, right?

Uh-huh.

Is that a yes?

Yes. So you would have an option for this property somewhere that would expire somewhere around December 30, 2008?

There was a 90-day option. Yes. Are you working with Mr. O'Connell as part of this process?

I guess so.

Any problems with Mr. O'Connell with this project up to that point?

Not at that time, not at that site.

So you had no problems with Mr. O'Connell with respect to the Schaefer property.

No.

Okay. What happened, what ultimately happened with your option, you got a written option to purchase, correct?

Correct.

And you didn't exercise to buy the property, did you.

Correct.

Okay. Why didn't you exercise?

Because the agreement was that, the gentleman's agreement was that for me to get to West Racine I was going to do the Schaefer site.

Is there anything, was there any condition in your option to purchase that in any way involved the West Racine site?

No. So there's nothing in writing which is describing this gentleman's -No. -- agreement that you're describing?

Right.

So you ultimately did not exercise on the option to purchase, correct?

Correct.

You understood that an option to purchase gave you control of the site, correct.

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Correct.

You controlled the decision as to whether to buy it, correct?

Correct.

And you chose not to buy the Schaefer property.

Correct.

Did you pay an option fee in connection with Schaefer?

I don't remember. I don't know.

Okay. At some point -I thought I was supposed to cover the -- the costs of sidewalk shoveling and things like that.

Okay. At some point did you approach the city about extending the option for the Schaefer property?

I might have.

Do you know if that was granted?

I believe ultimately it was, if I remember correctly.

Did you approach them a second time then for an option, extension of the option?

Very well could have. I don't remember.

Okay. Do you recall appearing before the redevelopment authority on March 9, March 4,

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2009?

Specifically, no, but...

Okay. In looking at Exhibit 218 does that refresh your recollection?

Well, I see what it says, but you asked me if I recalled and I said no.

No, I understand. I mean, does looking at Exhibit 218 refresh your recollection?

Well, yeah, I can understand what I did there.

That's why we take these minutes up, but like I said, it doesn't refresh my recollection as far as specific date goes, no.

Okay. You agree with me that Exhibit 218 is showing that you made a request for an extension to the option that was not accepted?

Yes. Do you have any claims as we sit here today that anybody at the City of Racine submarined the project on the Schaefer property?

I never said that he did.

I'm just asking you whether you have any claims as we sit here today.

No. On March 4, 2009 that would have been, do you know how -- where that sits in relation to

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interested in Schaefer?

2 A

Because that wasn't the agreement. The

3

agreement was that I'd do Schaefer to get West

4

Racine.

5 Q

that you weren't going to get West Racine?

7 A

They weren't honoring the agreement that if I

8

did Schaefer I would get West Racine. That

9

didn't say I was going to do West Racine. So

10

if they weren't going to honor the agreement

11

that I was going to do this and get that then I

12

wasn't to do this, I just wanted to get that.

13 Q

Who wasn't honoring this agreement?

14 A

Brian O'Connell and the union regime took over

15

after Gary Becker went to jail.

16 Q

So this alleged --

17 A

That's why --

18 Q

-- gentleman's agreement --

19 A

I wasn't at this meeting.

20 Q

Who was the alleged gentleman's agreement with?

21 A

As far as the gentleman's agreement goes that I

22

did -- I did the Schaefer to get the West

23

Racine?

24 Q

Yeah.

25 A

Brian O'Connell, Gary Becker, everybody knew Page 189

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Mayor Dickert's first election?

No, I don't remember the date of it, because, like I said, it was special election, so...

Do you know if the West Racine property was ever subject of a request for proposal?

Was it -- no, it was not subject to RFP, no.

Before you were interested in it it was never subject to an RFP? Not that -- I wasn't -- I wasn't referring to an RFP when I asked for my proposal to be looked at.

Did you ever investigate whether there was an open RFP on the West Racine property?

Did I ever investigate it?

Yeah. Did you ever ask anybody if there was an RFP? Other than the previous mayor who asked me to do it, but no.

Okay.

You got to remember this meeting on March 4 I wasn't at. I told Brian, I said if it passes it passes and if it doesn't it doesn't, because I didn't care because I didn't want Schaefer.

I wasn't even at that meeting.

So as of March of 2009 you were no longer

Okay. And what in March of 2009 convinced you

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about it.

But it didn't make its way into your option to purchase?

Didn't have to.

I see. What in March of 2009 convinced you that you weren't going to get the West Racine project?

I don't know. I just didn't -- got that vibe.

Okay.

(Exhibit No. 219 marked for identification.)

BY MR. STUART: I'll show you what's been marked as Exhibit 219. Have you ever seen this document before?

I might have, but this was a RFP that wasn't standing when I looked, I don't believe.

Did you look at this document at any time before you had submitted your proposal to the City of Racine for the West Racine project?

I don't believe I particularly looked at it.

This was being issued -- this was being handled

by RCDC, if I remember correctly, and I think Chris Menick (phonetic) was the point person on this one, if I remember correctly.

Does it indicate that this is a request for proposals from the City of Racine Redevelopment

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Authority?

Correct.

Okay. And the West Racine project that we're talking about, that's the 3100 block of Washington Avenue; is that correct?

Correct.

That's shown on the first page of this document?

Yes. I'd like to call your attention to page 4.

There's a section called "utilities." Do you see that?

Yes. There's a reference in that section to a storm and sanitary sewer?

Uh-huh.

Do you recall your testimony before about a storm and sanitary sewer easement on the property?

Correct. There's many, actually.

Okay. There's more than one?

Yes, there's more than one, and the one was missed and the same surveyor that missed it is my surveyor. We located it.

Okay.

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While we were doing the physical examination of

2

the site we found manholes that weren't

3

documented on the survey. I found it.

4 Q

You found manholes that were not documented on

5

a survey.

6 A

Correct. And you can ask the surveyor if he'd

7

like to testify to that. Mark Madsen from

8

Nielsen, Madsen and Barber.

9 Q

Does this indicate that there was at least some

10

indication of where a storm and sanitary sewer

11

was?

12 A

There is indication of it, but the one that we

13

found was not labeled.

14 Q

Okay.

15 A

Which was a big one. You could probably ride a

16

Harley through it. There was a lot of site

17

improvement over there, so we assumed that the

18

clean -- the survey that they had was clean and

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correct.

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How far after the election did you hire Zach Williams, how long?

22 A

Shortly after. It wasn't far after. I

23

couldn't even tell you.

24 Q

When's --

25 A

Weeks.

When was the first discussion you had with Mr. Williams about coming to work with you on the West Racine project?

Weeks after the election.

How did that occur? Did you call him?

No. Did he call you?

I think he called me, said he wanted to talk to me and then he came in, put a proposal on.

And at that point he was working for Goff, right?

Yeah. Like I said, I don't know if they were partners or he worked for them.

Do you have any facts which indicate that Mayor Dickert's in any way associated with Goff?

No, other than Zach worked for his campaign and Zach worked for Goff, so I imagine that's some association, right?

And what association is that, the fact that Zach worked for Mr. -Both.

-- Mr. Dickert?

It's an association, right?

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interest in Goff?

Not that I know of, no.

Did Zach Williams, what qualifications did he have in order to help you on the project?

He worked for John Dickert, and John Dickert, that's a qualification that I considered very important.

And when you say John Dickert sent him did Mr. Dickert talk to you about Mr. Williams?

Correct.

When did that occur?

Shortly after the election. We're talking about all compressed within a two-week period.

How did that discussion occur?

He was going to send his guy over to talk to me and that I should listen to what he has to say and he might be able to help me.

By telephone or meeting?

It might have been at the Ivanhoe.

So it was a meeting?

It was at a party.

Okay. When was the party?

Shortly after the election.

What was the party for?

John Dickert's victory celebration.

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So at the victory celebration is when you had a discussion with Mr. Dickert about hiring Mr. Williams?

Correct.

How did that come about? Did you come to him about the West Racine project or -Not at a party, no.

Okay.

They were all there. I was sitting with a group of guys.

Did Mayor Dickert tell you why he was suggesting that you hire Mr. Williams?

No. I think you referred to Mr. Williams as a lobbyist before?

Well, I said he acted as a lobbyist. Best description that I could find for him is what he did for me was acted as a lobbyist.

Okay. So you hired Mr. Williams because he had some connections at city hall?

Correct.

And he may be able -I hired -- I was -- they were sent to me, so I just automatically assumed that if I wanted to get the project done that I had to do was sent

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to him.

So that was your assumption.

Correct.

(Exhibit No. 220 marked for identification.)

BY MR. STUART: I show you what's been marked as Exhibit 220, ask you to take a look at that document. Do you recognize this document, Mr. Tousis?

I do.

Is this a letter from you dated September 11, 2009?

Yes. And is it to Q.A. Shakoor?

Uh-huh, who was the council president at the time.

And just looking at the letter is it fair to say that this is a proposal for you to buy the 3100 Washington Avenue property?

The attached -- no, I don't have -- there's no proposal attached here in the application letter.

Let's look at the very first paragraph of Exhibit 220, please. It says, "Please consider this letter and the accompanying file and proposal for a development project named

Washington Market for the vacant land on the southwestern corner of Washington Avenue and West Boulevard in Racine, Wisconsin." Do you see that?

Yes. Okay. So did you understand that this letter was a formal proposal -A formal proposal was done in person. This was to allow me to be on the slot to talk.

Okay. So how did you submit the proposal in person?

I went to the council and asked them to look at drawings and exactly what I wanted to do and spoke in detail on what I wanted to do.

All right. So you attended a council meeting after you submitted this letter.

Correct. This letter was to allow me to attend, to be on the agenda.

All right. Is this the first document that you're aware of where you submitted something in writing to the city in connection with the West Racine project?

I couldn't tell you specifically, no.

Do you have any recollection of signing something before this?

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I couldn't tell you, no.

No recollection?

No, I couldn't tell you. It was done quite a few times.

Do you agree with me that there's a description as to what you're proposing for the project in the letter?

There's a brief description, correct, yes.

And you're describing a grocery store, is that correct?

Yes. Two story?

Yes. 10,300 square feet?

Yes. And with 3,500 square feet of storage space and offices?

Correct.

So as a combined building just for the grocery store of 13,800 feet, right?

Looks good to me.

Is that correct?

Yes. All right. And then there's a full service restaurant for 3,024 feet?

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Correct.

And a bank with a thousand square feet.

Correct.

And the next page is an Application for Conditional Use Permit; is that correct?

Correct.

Dated same date?

Correct.

Do you know where in relation to Mayor Dickert's campaign in September 11, 2009 is?

No, I don't even recall the specific date of the election.

Do you think he's the mayor at this point?

I can't tell you one way or another.

Okay.

It's irrelevant. Just because I submitted a letter doesn't mean I had any conversation at that point.

All right. And is there a part of this file, are there, is there a drawing, a proposed drawing of your project?

Correct.

And that's on the second from last page?

Uh-huh.

Is that correct?

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Yes. All right. And it's kind of hard to read, I appreciate that, but it looks like there's three standalone buildings on this project?

There's the standalone -- they're all connected. It's one building but it's three compartments, yes.

Okay. Three separate areas for each of the uses, correct?

Correct.

And you got the grocery store, the restaurant, and the bank.

Correct.

All right. And the rest of the site is going to be used for the pumps and the gas station, correct?

And parking, yes.

Okay. Why is it that you submitted this proposal to Alderman Shakoor?

He's the council president. If you want to address the council you have to address the president.

At this point did you understand that the property was owned by the redevelopment authority?

Correct.

Why didn't you submit the proposal to them?

Because the standard procedure is to go through the normal chain of command before you get to the redevelopment authority.

That's your understanding of the standard procedure?

That's how I was taught -Okay.

-- by city development.

Did you go before the common council with respect to your proposal?

Let me rephrase. The city -- if they were requesting -- if they're considering -- if they're issuing RFPs you address the redevelopment authority. Now, in order to address a property that doesn't have a standing RFP on it you have to get the council to push it towards redevelopment authority, and the only way to get it in front of the redevelopment authority, like I said, is to go through the council, and on that project there was no standing RFP. Got it.

The RFP was old.

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So your intention was to get before the common council to see if they can get you before the RDA. A Yeah, if they could look at the project then they can push it before the authority and tell them they want the project and...

Q And did that happen, did it go to the RDA? A I don't believe it did.

Q Okay.

A But I don't recall exactly.

(Exhibit No. 221 marked for identification.)

THE WITNESS: It did go to the RDA.

BY MR. STUART: Q Wait, wait.

A It did. I'm sorry. You got to recall, this is years ago.

Q You have to wait until she gets her hands on.

Do you recall a common council meeting on September 15, 2009 to consider the application that you submitted on September 9?

A I'm sure I did, yes.

Q Does it appear that Exhibit 221 is a copy of the minutes from that meeting?

A Looks like it to me, correct.

Q Does it appear to you that at that meeting this

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was referred to the city planning commission, the RDA, and the Access Corridor Development Committee?

The RDA, plan commission. Actually, I don't think I asked for it to be referred to the plan commission, but they gave it to me anyway.

Okay. And this is about four days after you submitted the letter on September 11, 2009?

Correct.

Any concerns with how the application's being handled at this point by the City of Racine?

No. Was there -- were you then asked to provide some documents to the RDA in connection with your proposal?

Don't recall.

(Exhibit No. 222 marked for identification.)

BY MR. STUART: I show you what's been marked as Exhibit 222.

This appears to be a letter that was addressed to you; is that correct?

Yes. Okay. And it's informing you that you've been placed on the RDA's agenda for October 7, 2009?

Correct.

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Friend.

Okay. He was just there for what?

He's the biggest developer in southeastern Wisconsin. He was my personal advisor.

Q So he was just sort of helping you through the process?

A Helping me along with specific things that I would need somebody like that's help with.

Q Okay.

(Exhibit No. 223 & 224 marked for identification.)

THE WITNESS: The original -BY MR. STUART: Q Wait. Show you what's been marked as Exhibit 223, ask you if you've ever seen that document before.

A Okay.

Q Have you seen this document before?

A I'm sure I did, but I'm looking at it right now, so yes.

Q And is this from the city planning commission?

A No. It's from the -Q Principal planner?

A Correct.

Q But it's relating to your application before the city --

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And it's asking you for certain information in connection with that application, isn't it?

Correct.

Do you know if you submitted that application, that information?

I don't, I really don't recall.

Do you recall, you don't know if you did or you didn't?

Yeah, the two projects -- I've been through the process more than once, so I don't know if I could specifically remember one from the other.

I don't know.

At this point do you have anybody that's helping you on your, what's called the development team?

I didn't call it development team. Everybody else called it a development team. I called it a realtor, a consultant, and a friend.

Okay. Who was the realtor?

Karen Sorensen.

Who was the consultant?

Zach Williams.

And who was the friend?

Ray Leffler.

What was Mr. Leffler's role on the team?

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Correct.

-- for the conditional use permit, correct?

Correct.

And that's before the city planning commission?

At the time I couldn't tell you if it was before the plan commission or not.

But it's informing you that they can't do anything with the conditional use permit until you actually -Correct.

-- deal with the owner of the property, correct?

Correct.

And the owner of the property is the RDA, correct?

Correct.

So you have to deal with the RDA before you can get your conditional use permit, correct?

That's what they're saying here.

Right.

What they told me is otherwise.

Okay. Who told you otherwise?

I was being bounced like a ping-pong ball between departments. Actually, the guy who laid it out for me told me exactly how to do it

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was Alderman Aron Wisneski.

Okay. This is September 18, 2009, right, sir?

Yes. So this is seven days after you submitted your proposal?

Correct.

At this point in time were you disappointed at all with the way that the city's handling your application?

Disappointed how the city development was handling it, correct.

And what were you disappointed in?

They were just looking for reasons not to accept it.

What -- what in the correspondence that I just showed you indicates -Because I don't care what you showed me in the correspondence, they didn't want to accept it, okay? So they're telling me go see RDA. RDA is going to tell me that I've got to talk to the common council. It went back and forth like that and that's how it went.

Okay. Why don't you take a look at Exhibit 224. Have you ever seen this e-mail before?

Not that I recall, no.

1 MR. SANDERS: I just know that we had 2 received some documents earlier this week that 3 had been in your possession from Zach Williams 4 since earlier in the month and we didn't get 5 until yesterday.

6 MR. STUART: You received -- we 7 received those last week and we addressed why 8 it is that -9 MR. SANDERS: I'm just saying that's 10 why I'm -- I haven't had a chance to review 11 those documents.

12 MR. STUART: None of these documents 13 came, none of the documents that we're going 14 through right now are a part of Zach Williams's 15 production, I will tell you that.

16 MR. SANDERS: Okay.

17 (Exhibit No. 225 marked for identification.)

18 THE WITNESS: Let me know when you're 19 ready to talk about what I remember from 20 looking at this e-mail after reading it.

21

BY MR. STUART: 22 Q Let me show you what's been marked as Exhibit 23 225. Does this appear to be an e-mail that you 24 were copied on on October -25 A I'd like to talk about 224.

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Do you recall a time when Zach Williams asked for a copy of the Schaefer proposal on your behalf?

A Yeah, I don't recall that exactly.

Q Do you know why Zach was asking for that, your proposal from the year before?

A No. MR. SANDERS: Excuse me, Counsel, did this come in production?

MR. STUART: No. You didn't ask for it.

MR. SANDERS: We didn't did for e-mails for Zach Williams.

MR. STUART: No. MR. SANDERS: From the city.

MR. STUART: Nope.

MR. SANDERS: Or for Brian O'Connell.

MR. STUART: Nope. We're not aware of any document requests in which any of these documents would have been requested. If you find something that's otherwise I'll be happy to listen.

MR. SANDERS: I obviously can't do that here.

MR. STUART: All right.

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You have to answer my questions, sir. Is this an e-mail that you received on October 2, 2009?

Why would I have received it?

Are you in the CC as Tom Tousis on the top, on the page?

On October 1.

No, October 2.

Okay. Sorry about that.

You're the betterdaybp@yahoo.com, correct?

Correct.

Does this appear to be a response to Mr. Williams' request for your proposal from the year before?

Seems like it, correct.

So the city had responded to Mr. Williams' request; is that correct?

Correct.

Any reason to believe that what they responded to was not a correct or complete version of your proposal?

No reason to believe that, no.

Okay.

(Exhibit No. 226 marked for identification.)

BY MR. STUART: Show you what's been marked as Exhibit 226. Do

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you recognize this document?

I believe so.

What's the second page of this document?

Projected costs.

And what are the projected costs?

5.15 million.

For which development?

For West Racine.

So this is a document connected to West Racine project?

Correct.

And this is an estimate of what you anticipated the costs to be?

Correct.

Do you know where in the process this document was? Is it at the beginning?

I would imagine the beginning, correct.

Isn't the first page kind of the resumĂŠ for you and your father?

Correct.

And this is what the RDA was requesting that you submit before it considered your application, correct?

Correct.

Okay.

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asking for the copy of the proposal from 1130

2

Washington Avenue was to find out what the

3

differences between the two proposals were for

4

one to be approved and one not to follow the

5

same process that the previous one had done,

6

when they were both under control of the RDA.

7

That's why the purpose of the copy, for them to

8

send us a copy of the application, because that

9

application was approved very easily.

10 Q

Okay.

11 A

And that's why he asked for a copy because he

12

wanted to see if there was something that we

13

were missing to find out why that one was

14

approved within days and this one was being

15

bounced around from department to department.

16

That was the purpose of the e-mail.

17 Q

Which department was this being bounced around?

18 A

Between RDA and city development, and of course

19

it was being bounced around. I didn't have to

20

go through any of this on the 1130.

21 Q

Mr. Tousis, who owned the property again?

22 A

RDA owned both.

23 Q

So you were -- and you're complaining --

24 A

I received an option probably 60 days --

25 Q

You have to let me finish my question, please.

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(Exhibit No. 227 marked for identification.)

BY MR. STUART: Showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 227.

The top is an e-mail that you were copied on on October 5, 2009?

Correct.

And is this a dialog between your team and Mr. O'Connell about the West Racine project?

It's dialog between Zach Williams and Mr. O'Connell.

That you were copied on, right?

Yes. Okay. And is the dialog an explanation for Mr. O'Connell about the receive and file terminology used by the RDA? Okay. That's his explanation for it, correct.

And this is less than a month after you submitted your proposal, correct?

Correct.

At this point in time are you disappointed at all with the way that the city is handling your application or your proposal?

Probably.

Okay. And what are you disappointed about?

Because the purpose of Zach's e-mail before

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All right.

You have to let me finish my question.

Okay.

The RDA owned the property, correct?

Correct, on both.

And you're disappointed that you have to appear before the RDA? No. I wasn't before -So what other department are you being bounced to?

They were asking me to go in front of plan commission before I go back to the RDA which on 1130, on 1130 staff streamlined everything and did every ounce of work for it because they wanted that project. That was the purpose of Zach's e-mail, to find out what difference there was between applications between 1130 and 3100 to see why one went through easily to get an approval and one didn't.

So you thought that you should have had approval by October 5 -No, I didn't think about a deadline, I didn't set deadlines. Why one -- the one package, the application was saying it was correct and we've required this and that and the next one they

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required so much more of me.

What did they require more the second time around?

A lot more.

What -Brian O'Connell put the package together for 1130 himself.

What did they require more the second time around that they didn't require -Additional meetings, additional document -- it was over and over again.

Okay. Have you seen any correspondence which indicates that to this point?

Correct. Yeah, I didn't have to put a hard cost breakdown with general construction costs and that for 1130. They pretty much gave me the option before I even, all I had to do was provide drawings.

Was the Schaefer development in a TID district?

I don't know if it was formed at the time or not.

Did you agree with me that -Gary was talking about forming one at this time.

Would you agree with me that that may alter

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what you have to submit for proposal --

2 A

No, not at all. I'm not going to believe that,

3

no.

4 Q

How many commercial developments had you been

5

involved in prior to the Schaefer development?

6 A

Myself, three, four of them.

7 Q

Commercial developments?

8 A

Sure.

9 Q

And what were those for?

10 A

The Better Day BP, the construction of

11

Gibson's, the Gibson's Charhouse that was in

12

the same site. I did Odyssey restaurant on

13

Highway 20, the remodeling. I did -- helped on

14

a conversion from Odyssey to Hallman/Lindsay.

15 Q

Did any of those projects involve property that

16

is owned by the city or the RDA?

17 A

No, just 1130 which I was involved in.

18 Q

So was the West Racine project the first time

19

that you were involved in a project involving

20

city-owned property --

21 A

No.

22 Q

-- that's in a TID district?

23 A

That I couldn't tell you exactly if a TID was

24

formed on 1130 or not.

25 Q

Okay.

MR. RICHARDS: Why don't we take a break, going on for a while.

MR. STUART: All right.

(Short break was taken.)

BY MR. STUART: Mr. Tousis, at some point did you -- Strike that.

You had indicated before that you thought that Alderman Spangenberg was not in support of this project, correct?

West Racine, correct.

At some point did you distribute literature about his views on the project?

I was -- I -- I participated in, yes.

Okay. What do you mean by you participated in?

There was other people involved in that too that didn't agree with him.

Like who?

Labor union, things like that.

Okay. So you're saying that you and a couple other groups had submitted literature?

I participated in information that went out. I didn't print it, I didn't distribute it, I didn't do anything like that.

Were you the person that was making the Page 217

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statements that were in the literature?

There's no quotes in the literature at all.

In terms of the information that was in the literature -I don't even remember what was on there.

(Exhibit No. 228 marked for identification.)

BY MR. STUART: Show you what's been marked as Exhibit 228. Do you recognize these documents? It's not one document.

I remember the pictures. Actually, I remember the first picture and that's about it, the gravel lot.

So are these two pages of separate pieces of literature that was -- that were sent in connection with Alderman Spangenberg?

I told you I don't know. I didn't have anything to do with it.

Have you ever -- you've seen these before but you don't recall -I remember the picture. I don't remember the words.

Did anybody from your development team, did they participate in the drafting of this?

I don't remember. I really don't remember.

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Do you recall reading it before it went out?

No. I didn't see it before it went out.

Actually, somebody brought it to me, actually.

And I'm sorry, you thought that unions were involved in sending this out?

I know they -- there was guys laughing about it after the fact.

Who was that?

I don't know. They were in the union trade room for another -- another campaign and there was a few guys laughing about it. I don't remember who they were exactly.

Was Zach Williams involved in the preparation of these materials?

I don't remember, I don't.

Did you pay for the printing of these materials?

I didn't pay for the printing, no.

And you didn't pay for the mailing?

No, I didn't pay for the mailing either, no.

Okay. So you have no recollection of what's Exhibit 228.

No. I don't remember at all, honest, other than the picture. I thought the picture was funny. I remember seeing that.

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option to purchase with the RDA?

2 A

No, I don't remember.

3 Q 4 5 A

I don't remember. I remember RDA meetings, but

6

I don't remember that particular meeting, what

7

it entailed.

8

(Exhibit No. 229 marked for identification.)

9

BY MR. STUART:

10 Q

Q A

Q A Q A Q A Q

A Q A Q

But the information that's contained in Exhibit 228 did not come from you.

The Tousis family and the new complex, all that stuff is public record, so, Jim Spangenberg posed it publicly.

That statement about -Chicago developers, I have no clue what that means.

Okay.

The statement tell, "Jim Spangenberg we want a local, reliable family," that's correct.

At some point was your proposal approved by the RDA? I don't believe it was officially approved in the end.

At some point was the -- well, your proposal was to enter into an option to purchase, correct?

Correct.

At some point was that proposal approved by the RDA? The check was accepted. If I remember correctly I was issued an option, I believe.

Do you recall how long after your September 9 letter you received approval to enter into an

Show you what has been marked as Exhibit 229,

11

direct your attention to page 5 of this

12

document.

13

THE WITNESS: Can I have a

14

conversation with my attorney?

15

MR. RICHARDS: Can we have a break?

16

MR. STUART: That's fine.

17 (Exhibit No. 230 & 231 marked for identification.)

18

BY MR. STUART:

19 Q

Mr. Tousis, is there anything else you want to

20

say about Exhibit 228?

21 A

No.

22 Q 23

I'm showing you what's marked as Exhibit No. 229 and I'd like to direct your attention to

24

page 5. Do you recall in looking at the item

25

under 094158, does that appear to be the matter Page 221

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Do you recall being on an RDA meeting on October 7, 2009?

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relating to your proposal to purchase the Washington Avenue property?

What was the exact question again?

Sure. Does Item 094158, does that relate to your proposal of the purchase of the Washington Avenue property?

Yes. I don't know if it has to do with the proposal.

If you look at the subject at the top?

Right. I'm reading that. Yes, that's what it's headed as, yes.

Okay. This indicates that you were at this meeting?

I believe I was, yeah.

Okay. In the paragraph describing your presentation there's a statement that there was difficulty in site plan creation due to utilities easements on the property. Do you see that on the top of page 6?

Okay.

Do you know what was being referred to as the utilities easements that were creating difficulty in site plans?

There was an undocumented easement that went right down the middle of my -- right down the

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middle of the building and that had -- caused me to have to redraw the whole plan.

And were you aware of that fact as of October 7, 2009?

At that meeting was I aware of it?

Yeah.

Yes, I was, as I stated, there was statement of there was difficulty in the plan creation, but the, like I said, the as-builts did not show the storm sewer that went right down the middle of that property.

You agree with me that this is less than a month after you submitted your proposal on September 9, correct?

I was working on it much more before I proposed this, submitted the proposal. It has nothing to do with the official date. There was so much done before that.

So was the drawing that you submitted with the September 9 letter, was that the revised drawing or was that the original drawing?

No, that was the original. I believe it was the original drawing.

So you -But I don't recall offhand without looking at

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it.

So did you discover this sewer easement after you submitted the proposal on September 9, 2011, or I'm sorry, on September 9, 2009 -September 11, 2009?

Bear with me a second here, because I can't say on dates, I can't tell you exactly when.

You're not sure when you -I'm not sure on the dates.

Could have been before or after this meeting?

Could have been, yeah.

Does it appear to you that there are a number of people that are either speaking either for or against your project?

Correct.

Some of them are people in the neighborhood around the project; is that correct?

Yes. And what was the outcome, what was your understanding of the outcome of this meeting?

On the, for the option?

Yes. It was given to me.

Or there's direction to negotiate an option agreement?

Yes. So you got approval to enter into an option agreement with the RDA as of this meeting; is that correct?

Correct.

And this is less than a month after you submitted your proposal?

Yes, according to the documentation, yes.

How did Alderman Spangenberg vote on that motion?

He voted for me. Spoke against me in numerous meetings, but voted for me with that.

Were you -- at this point did you start negotiating an option to purchase?

I couldn't tell you.

Okay.

It was shortly after, I'm sure, I was given the vote, yes.

When you started negotiations for the option to purchase what was your plan in terms of a purchase price?

I couldn't -- don't even recall. It was irrelevant. It was something very low.

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nothing.

Were you anticipating paying a purchase price for the property?

I would have liked not to, I would imagine, because of the level of investment and the problems I was running into, the extra costs that I was incurring.

Is that something that you proposed to the city, that you pay nothing?

I don't remember.

Do you recall asking the city for assistance from the TID? It was offered to me initially, sure.

And do you recall telling the city that your project as proposed in the September 9, 2011 letter would be a $5 million project?

There was additional costs that pushed it well above $5 million in that letter. The actual construction cost is well, well, well under 5 million and it shows right there, so if you took those costs out, hard costs to me and actual investment to the site are two different things.

Did you say the construction costs were under 5 million?

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It was under 5 million, correct.

But you thought that the value of your improvements would be over 5 million.

No, I never said it was going to be over $5 million.

Okay. So that wasn't your number.

The letter shows hard costs, attorney's fees, acquisition costs, not hard costs to the investment into the property itself, brick and mortar. Brick and mortar is all that matters in assessment. Doesn't matter how much I paid my attorney to review documentation to get it that far.

I understand that. I'm not referring to the letter. I know that you are, but I'm asking you as of October 7, 2009 what was your anticipated construction costs for the project?

Probably right around $5 million with all those hard costs.

What was your anticipated value of the project after you improved it?

The value is irrelevant. I don't set the values on the taxes. They asked me after the fact that they wanted me to guarantee $5 million, but I -- there's properties all over

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a repayment to a TID? Have I ever -- no, not at that level.

Have you ever understood that sometimes a city will ask a developer to guarantee a TID repayment?

Of course. I had no problem with a guarantee, but I wasn't going to guarantee twice as much as what it would be assessed at.

I guess what I'm asking is on October 7 of 2009 as you were entering negotiations with the option to -It wasn't even part of the conversation at the time.

Okay. Who was leading the negotiations of the option to purchase on your team?

Who was leading the negotiations?

Yeah.

I don't think anybody was leading negotiations.

I had myself and Ray Leffler behind the scenes talking.

Do you recall when it was that you signed the option to purchase?

No, I don't recall.

(A discussion held off the record.)

BY MR. STUART:

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Q

Racine that have twice as much investment but have an assessment of half.

What's your understanding of what a TID is?

Tax incremental district?

Yes. What is it?

Yes. What is it -- I mean -What's your understanding of what that is?

They take the taxes that are pulled out from within that district and reinvest it into the district itself.

Okay.

And then what's collected in increment goes back towards the cost that was distributed.

Collected in increment of what?

Taxes.

The taxes of the improved property?

Of the whole district, whatever, so there could be a house that's a building that's not been improved at all that's part of the TID and their taxes go towards investment on the corner.

Have you ever been involved in a project as a developer where you've been asked to guarantee

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Mr. Tousis, have you seen Exhibit 231?

2 A

Looking at it, yes.

3 Q

And are you looking at Item 09145A?

4 A

Yup.

5 Q

Does this indicate that you and the city are

6

still involved in negotiations for the option

7

to purchase?

8 A

Looks like it.

9 Q

And it was voted to defer -- looks like that

10

you guys came to an agreement sometime near the

11

time of this meeting in December?

12 A

That's what it says.

13 Q

Do you disagree with that?

14 A

Yup.

15 Q

Why do you disagree with that?

16 A

Because I was given what the required changes

17

were three days before the meeting and I turned

18

it in, turned in at noon the day of the

19

meeting. I was given two days to make those

20

changes, so for them to say that they didn't

21

have time to absorb it that wasn't fair

22

ultimately, and the commissioners weren't even

23

given a copy of it before the meeting.

24 Q

Oh, so you're upset that they didn't --

25 A

I'm not upset about anything. It's business.

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I'm not upset.

2 Q

Okay. Sorry. All I want to know is by

3

December 2, 2009 did you have your agreement

4

completed?

5 A

Did I have an agreement complete?

6 Q

Correct. Did you --

7 A

What date are you asking me?

8 Q

December 2, 2009.

9 A

I don't know if I have -- if I would have it

10

completed, but based upon what I'm looking at

11

right now, no. Did I have my proposal?

12 Q 13

Were you still negotiating an option to purchase?

14 A

I'm sure I was up to that point, yes. They

15

issued the deferment before the deadline for

16

the paperwork.

17

(Exhibit Nos. 230, 232 - 234 marked for

18

identification.)

19

BY MR. STUART:

20 Q

Show you what's been marked as Exhibits 230 and

21

232. Did you get a chance to look at Exhibit

22

230?

23 A

I'm going through it right now.

24

MR. SANDERS: 231, 232, right?

25

MR. RICHARDS: No, we're at 230 and

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MR. STUART: Because I skipped 230 before.

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MR. SANDERS: Oh, so we kept that as 231, okay. Mr. Stuart, is 230 the 12/14/09 meeting minutes?

MR. STUART: Yes. Did you get a chance to look at those?

Yes. Did you get a chance to look at the item relating to your option to purchase?

Yes. Does this indicate to you that you had a file form of option to purchase as of December 14, 2009?

I was granted an option, correct.

Okay. And the RDA approved that form on December 14, 2009?

Yes. So it just needed common council approval and you were good to go?

Not necessarily, no.

On the option to purchase?

On the option to purchase, yes.

Which is the first step to you developing

property, isn't it?

If I remember correctly, yes, all you need is the council approval, yes.

And Exhibit 232, is that the formal resolution from the RDA approving the option to purchase form?

Yes. Do you recall when the common council approved the form?

No, I don't remember.

Do you recall a meeting on January 5, 2010 of the common council to approve your option to purchase form?

Yes. Is that what the minutes in Exhibit 233 are?

Yes. And after that did you actually sign an option to purchase?

I don't recall. I really don't.

Show you what's been marked as Exhibit 234. Do you recognize this document?

Yes, I do.

What is this document?

It's the option.

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between you and the RDA? Uh-huh.

Is that a yes?

Yes. Okay.

It's a month earlier -- it's a month before it was approved, though. If you look at the dates when I signed it versus when it was approved.

When was the date that it was signed by the city -- by the city representatives?

It doesn't matter. Why would I have anything to sign before it was approved? It was signed on December 11 and the approval was on January 5.

Didn't you submit it to the redevelopment authority -Correct.

-- on December 11?

Correct.

So isn't that why you would have signed it before then?

Would I have submitted it a month before the meeting?

Well, didn't the RDA approve the form on December 14, 2009?

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The RDA, on December what?

December 14, 2009?

December 14, okay, right, this is still dated December 11, so yes, this would have been -yes.

Okay. And then the city signed it on January 11 after the common council approved -Without referring to the document, so forgive me on that one.

Okay. Do you agree with me that the option to purchase gave you the right to purchase the property?

Yes. Meaning you had control -Yes, to seek further approvals and things like that, yes.

You had the right to purchase the property under the option to purchase, correct?

Under conditional, a conditional right. I didn't have an open right to purchase the property, no.

All right.

The option does not give you that. There's conditions in the option.

Okay. And what would -- what did you

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understand the conditions to be?

Well -- it's all subject to approvals. I had -- I had negotiated a new lease with the farmers market on-site, it says right in there, there was -- there was all kinds of requirements.

Well -It says, "This option is granted to give the buyer time to submit for review and seek approval of its development proposal by public bodies of the City of Racine per attached addendum," da-da-da.

Okay.

So I had -- it didn't mean that that gave me the right. It meant that it gave me the right to seek more approvals -Okay.

-- that I didn't have yet.

Had you ever entered into an option to purchase before?

Yes. Did you understand that an option to purchase gives a buyer a period of time to decide whether they want to buy a property?

Yes.

And they can exercise to buy the property or not?

That's completely different. You can write an option different ways with different contingencies, so this is written for seeking more approvals. Now, you know perfectly well how options can be worded, so...

You think that lines 218 to 219 forced you to get approvals before you bought?

Of course.

Okay.

Or why would I -- why would I buy without approvals?

Okay.

Doesn't -- who would buy -- who would buy a city property that they don't want to sell you without approvals?

At this point did you control the site?

No. I never controlled the site. It was owned by the RDA. Option doesn't give you control of the site. The option gives you the terms of the option, control as far as the terms of the option.

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somebody else during the time that your option was open?

Very well could have been. I don't remember how it was worded, so it could be worded either way.

Did you read this before you signed it?

Yes. It was also five years ago, so...

What was the purchase price -Seven years ago.

-- for the option?

I couldn't tell you without referring to documentation.

Okay.

That's why we have documentation.

Can you look at Addendum D, the terms sheet?

Uh-huh. B or D? D. Do you recall asking the city for a five year mortgage that was forgivable?

I do remember that, yeah.

And was the idea there that was for the $250,000 purchase price?

Correct, I'm reading here, yes.

So you were asking the city to give you the property for free; is that correct?

It's not for free. It's a forgivable mortgage.

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It's not free. It's if you hold up your terms of the agreement -- you repaid it with your terms.

So if you lived up to your end of the bargain -Right.

-- to the mortgage you get it for free?

It's not free. You acquired investment.

For no purchase price.

No purchase price or forgivable purchase price.

Do you see in the option that there's a $5,000 fee payable?

Yes. Did you pay that?

Yes. When did you pay that?

I don't recall exactly.

Did you pay it as soon as you entered into the option?

I think it was last minute or it was a deadline extension? I don't know.

Does line 9 of the Exhibit 234 require payment within five days?

Correct.

Did you pay it within five days?

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I really don't remember.

Do you recall asking the city for an extension?

I don't remember. It just said something to that effect, but I don't remember exactly.

(Exhibit No. 235 marked for identification.)

BY MR. STUART: Mr. Tousis, I'm going to show you what's marked as Exhibit 235. Have you ever seen that document before?

Yes. What is that document?

That was -- that was a request for extension because I do remember that's when we located the sewer.

It's your testimony that you located the sewer, you personally located the sewer line by walking the site?

Myself and Mark Madsen, the surveyor of record on the -- that was contracted by the city.

So is it your testimony that the city didn't know about the easement before you -Doesn't matter if I knew about it or not.

As-builts are as-builts. That's what surveys are for. They're for you to be able to pull it up and not guess and not assume and not -- and

they're -- they're hard documentation of what's supposed to be on the property. Now, if somebody misses it then somebody missed it, doesn't mean that the pipe's not there.

I understand that. I'm asking you is it your -I don't know if the city knew the pipe was there or not, but the surveys they provided, the surveys of record, the most current as-built showed no pipe and there was major construction on the site, so to assume that their as-builts were not accurate or old in some fashion that's a real long-shot assumption.

But you have no facts as we sit here today that the city knew of this easement before January 15, 2010.

Brian O'Connell said that he thought there was a pipe somewhere on that site -Okay.

-- at a meeting with myself, Ray Leffler and Karen Sorensen, and then we went to investigate it more, we found this so-called pipe and Brian didn't know exactly where it was, what it was, what it was doing there, and then we found it Page 241

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and figured out what it was, but then in the as-builts that the city had themselves did not show it.

And when you're referring to as-builts what are you referring to?

As-builts are the most current survey, as built, so as it stands right now. That's what they're termed in construction, as-builts.

So you're using the term as-builts to refer to a survey?

Correct. That's the most current survey would be considered as-builts.

Okay. And you're indicating or at least Ms. Sorensen's indicating on your behalf in this letter that the discovery of this pipe is going to drastically change the scope of your project?

It did. I couldn't put a building cross the top of the pipe.

So it eliminated a portion of the building?

Correct.

It reduced the size of your project?

It reduced the footprint, not the size, the overall square footage, and not drastically, not of anything significant, if I remember

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correctly.

(Exhibit No. 236 marked for identification.)

BY MR. STUART: Show you what's been marked as Exhibit 236.

Have you ever seen that document before?

Okay. I don't remember reading it in particular, but I understand it.

Is this indicating that you had sought an extension of certain deadlines under the option to purchase?

Correct.

Specifically the obligation to submit for a conditional use permit?

Correct.

And Mr. O'Connell's responding to that request, correct?

Correct.

Okay. And he's telling you that he's going to put you on the next agenda for the redevelopment authority?

Correct.

Is he also indicating that you had not yet paid the $5,000 option fee?

Yes. And had you? Do you agree with that statement,

Page 244 1

the drawings that I submitted that they had

2

liked. Now those drawings were no longer

3

applicable.

4 Q 5 6 A

No. That's not an interpretation. It's got

7

nothing to do with the contract. They told me

8

about a pipe a few days before the $5,000 was

9

due. I had to resubmit drawings again and --

10

you don't just submit drawings with an

11

application without talking to city development

12

first. Everybody knows that.

13 Q 14

A Q A Q A

Q A Q A

Q A

Q A

you had not paid it -Correct.

-- as of January 15?

I was holding it at that point, yes.

Why were you withholding it?

Because I had to completely redraw and resubmit all my plans, including the ones that I showed common council for the initial -- to be put in front of the RDA. So you were angry about -No, I wasn't angry. I'm not angry.

Okay.

Okay. Don't say I'm angry. This is business.

Okay. So I wasn't -- why would you assume that I was angry in any fashion?

So you were withholding the $5,000.

I was withholding it to make sure, okay, that they were going to understand that they were going to allow me to resubmit the new drawings and to take it into consideration and look at them and tell me their feedback on it before I gave them $5,000 and chewed it up.

You had signed the contract requiring you to pay that fee, though, correct?

I signed the contract with the condition upon

Did Mayor Dickert have anything to do with the placement of the pipe on the property?

15 A

I don't know. I don't know what he did before

16

he became mayor. Maybe he was -- maybe he was

17

in construction. I don't know.

18 Q

Do you have any facts to suggest that he had

19

anything to do with that?

20 A

No.

21 Q

Do you have any facts to suggest that Alderman

22

Spangenberg had anything to do with the pipe on

23

the property?

24 A

No.

25 Q

Do you have any facts to suggest that Monte Page 245

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Q

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Osterman had anything to do with the pipe on the property?

Placement, are you asking me about placement about the pipe on the property?

Anything, anything to do with the pipe.

I couldn't tell you if they did or not, I don't know.

Do you have any facts as we sit here today that they did?

No. What was the result of your request for an extension?

I don't remember what the result was, but I was allowed to submit the $5,000 and they took it.

Could have rejected it.

Do you recall any -- did you -- do you recall any statements in connection with that application that you had not paid the option fee for the Schaefer property?

Any statements?

Yes. That I did not pay the option fee?

Yes. Statements from who?

Anyone at the hearing where they're considering

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your extension.

I don't remember. I don't even know if I was at the hearing.

Okay.

I don't remember if I was there or a representative or myself.

You indicated that you with redrew the plans, correct?

We were working on that. I don't know if they -- we actually submitted them or they accepted them. I don't -- I don't recall. I know I had new drawings.

We all know that this lawsuit's got nothing to do with me saying that I was mistreated by the city at all, right, everybody knows this in this room?

So you're not claiming that you were treated -The lawsuit doesn't say that Tom Tousis was mistreated by the city.

Are you contending that you were mistreated by the city in connection with the West Racine development?

I'm not contending anything. It wasn't contended.

As part of your testimony today --

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I don't have to give you testimony on that right now. I'm not saying anything. I'm not part -- I'm not part of the team or the lawsuit. I'm not here -- nobody is suing the City of Racine because Tom Tousis says he was mistreated.

Mr. Tousis, your West Racine development did not occur, correct?

Correct.

Are you claiming that it did not -I would rather be on a beach in Florida right now, just so you know.

I understand that, but -I don't --- you have to answer my questions.

I don't want nothing to do with this. I don't care what John Dickert does. This is a waste of my money and my time and I don't care what the plaintiffs have to say. That's -- they're big boys in a big world just like I am. I didn't ask for anybody to cover my boo-boos when I got my butt kicked. Okay. I paid my own bills, I didn't sue anybody, and I walked away and I went back to work.

Are you contending --

I'm not contending anything and I don't have to say anything.

As we're sitting here today -No, I'm not.

-- do you contend -I'm not contending anything.

MR. RICHARDS: Just let -THE WITNESS: I don't have to contend anything. I'm not here -- I'm not here to contend what -- how I feel.

BY MR. STUART: Mr. Tousis, as we sit here today are you contending that your West Racine development failed because you were mistreated by the City of Racine?

I'm not contending that at all.

Okay.

Okay. Doesn't mean that I believe it or I don't believe it, but I'm not here to contend that. I'm here to answer your questions.

So is it fair to say that you believe you were treated fairly by Mayor Dickert in connection with the West Racine Development?

No. I'm not going to say that I was treated fairly by anybody or mistreated by anybody.

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I'm not here to do that, okay?

You weren't mistreated by Mayor Dickert.

I didn't say I was or I wasn't.

I'm asking you now.

Okay. But I'm not going to answer that. I won't answer that.

Well, you don't really have that option.

Okay. I do have that option. I'm not going to answer it.

You can choose not to answer if you'd like.

Okay.

Usually that's based on the instruction of your counsel, but I'll warn you that that means it's something we can compel the court -It's got nothing to do with the court because I don't have nothing to do with the plaintiffs, never -MR. RICHARDS: Tom, they can subpoena people to depositions, ask them a bunch of intrusive questions, and unless there's some sort of privilege you have to answer the question.

THE WITNESS: That I am part, that I believe that I was mistreated by the City of Racine?

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MR. RICHARDS: They can ask that.

Whether or not it's going to ultimately be admissible in a lawsuit for or against someone, that's -- there's no privilege, there's no feelings privilege, I guess would be the best way of putting it.

THE WITNESS: I don't know what it has to do with anything, but...

MR. RICHARDS: That's, you know, it's not my job, it's not your job. These two big high-priced lawyers from the big city will figure that out.

MR. SANDERS: I see one. I see two.

THE WITNESS: Now, do I believe that I was -- I was -- I was held to a different standard, yes.

BY MR. STUART: Okay. And what's the -- what facts do you have to support -I don't have facts. You asked me if I believed.

Okay.

So belief, I just, just like I believe in God I don't have to produce proof of why there's God. It's a belief.

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So you don't have any facts which show that you were treated differently from any other developer in the City of Racine.

I can tell you I was treated differently than myself by a previous construction project, I can guarantee you that. I can prove that.

Different project, right?

Yeah. The same -Different circumstances?

Not much, RDA, gas station. It was pretty similar.

(Exhibit No. 237 marked for identification.)

BY MR. STUART: Showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 237, have you ever seen this document before?

Yes. Okay. What is this document?

What's the date on it?

You tell me.

11/17 of 2006 and 2012.

You're looking at the date that it was drawn, correct?

Drawn by SEB 11/17 of 2006 and 2012, correct, yes.

Does this show the West Washington -- the

property that was subject to the West Racine development, the project?

Does it show it?

Yes. Okay. Yes, it does.

Okay. Is this showing certain sewer easements on that property?

Shows potential storm water easement.

Potential doesn't mean anything.

Do you see easements that say sewer easement anywhere?

Yeah, on the eastern part of the property, correct. That's not where I was putting the building, but I was putting it on the western part of the property where there wasn't one.

So where were you putting the building?

On the western part of the property where there wasn't -- there was a potential storm water easement. There was no current easement at that time. The easements are all highlighted with hash marks.

So you were going to put the property on D? Along Grove.

Lots 8, 7, and 6?

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pumps on 3 and 2, approximately, without overlap -- overlaying my site plans versus this, yes, correct.

Okay. So where in relation on this survey was the undiscovered sewer easement?

Where it says "potential storm water easement."

In construction there's no potential. It's either there or it's not.

I see. Do you know if you've seen a copy of this survey prior to submitting your application in 2009?

Did I see a copy of the survey?

Yes. I couldn't tell you or not. I would assume.

We don't do drawings without surveys.

So do you think that the version that you got said potential sewer easement?

Actually, the version that I got might have said nothing. I couldn't tell you. You're talking about years ago. We don't usually make mistakes like missing big pipes like that.

See, if I remember correctly the law says you don't have to, in a roadway or an alley you don't have to make an easement, if I remember correctly, is that right? That's why there's

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storm water shown in this alley here with no easement and there's storm water shown over here with a potential storm water easement, because once they made the site all one site instead of various parcels they would have to make that an easement because it was no longer, they vacated the alley, if I remember correctly. It was a route for garbage trucks to pick up a dumpster somewhere in that area.

(Exhibit No. 238 marked for identification.)

BY MR. STUART: Mr. Tousis -This is the revised drawings.

These are your revised drawings, Exhibit 238?

Correct. This is a building abutting the potential easement.

All right. And you're pointing to the very first page of this exhibit, right?

Right there.

On the right-hand side under proposed site plan?

Correct.

Okay. So this is now what you're proposing to build after you found the sewer; is that correct?

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I don't remember how much, but we maximized it,

2

we abutted the easement, we pushed right to the

3

easement and right to the curb.

4 Q

building past the easement into the Urban

6

Gardens, right?

7 A

There wasn't an easement, it was a proposed

8

easement.

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A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q

Correct.

Before when I looked at the September 2009 letter there was a bank building -Correct.

-- shown. Is that shown anywhere anymore?

No. Is the -It wouldn't fit. They were more interested in the market than the bank.

So the bank is no longer on these drawings?

You can't do it. You can't bridge over the sewer.

So you dropped that from the plan.

I had to.

Okay.

I eliminated a car wash then.

Did you also reduce the size of the proposed diner?

I probably had to, correct.

And did you also reduce the size of the proposed market?

Overall footage I don't believe I shrunk it much, but, because it was two stories, but...

Did you lose square footage as a result of the revised development?

The easement area, we'll call it, okay?

Okay.

Your initial drawing extended out south past

12

the easement area into the spot that's called

13

Urban Garden, correct?

14 A

Correct.

15 Q

So this is a different drawing from where we

16

were before, correct?

17 A

Correct.

18 Q

Different cost estimate, correct?

19 A

Slightly. I don't think it was much of a

20

savings. The build-out on the bank was a white

21

box, same thing, so there wasn't a significant

22

investment other than a shelf for me. What I

23

saved by cutting the walls off $150,000.

24 Q 25

Okay.

MR. RICHARDS: Why don't we take a Page 257

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Right. My recollection is that you were

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break. I thought you were done.

THE WITNESS: Only investment was on the internals in the market.

MR. STUART: You want to just adjourn?

MR. RICHARDS: Yeah. We'll adjourn and do you want to try and reschedule while we're all here?

MR. STUART: Yeah, although I'm not sure, we don't have our lists.

MR. SANDERS: Yeah.

MR. STUART: Can we schedule a time to talk about that?

(A discussion held off the record.)

(Proceedings concluded at 2:32 p.m.)

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STATE OF WISCONSIN ) ) ss.

COUNTY OF MILWAUKEE ) I, ANNICK M. JAQUET, RMR, CRR, Notary Public in and for the State of Wisconsin, do hereby certify that the preceding deposition was recorded by me and reduced to writing under my personal direction.

I further certify that said deposition was taken at MARK D. RICHARDS, S.C., Racine, Wisconsin, on the 30th day of April, 2015, commencing at 9:31 a.m. and concluding at 2:32 p.m.

I further certify that I am not a relative or employee or attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor a relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, or financially interested directly or indirectly in this action.

In witness whereof, I have hereunto set my hand at Milwaukee, Wisconsin, this 14th d day ay of o May, 2015. <%Signature%> <% %Signattur ure e% %> ANNICK M. JA JAQUET, ANNI AN NICK CK M JAQU QUET ET RMR, CRR Notary Public in and for the State of Wisconsin My commission expires September 29, 2017.

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combination 30:8 134:3 144:2 combined 197:19 come 8:16 9:23 20:24 26:2 53:24 54:19 59:21 74:2 84:20,21 86:24 87:1 96:21 100:10 106:6 107:7,21 108:1,3 113:11 122:11 128:6 175:15,17 176:12 194:5,5 207:9 219:2 comes 24:7 coming 55:24 60:7 106:20 123:21 124:5 126:23 192:2 command 200:4 commander 103:12,17 commencing 258:11 comment 53:14 53:24 54:18 107:15 commenting 107:24 comments 31:17 54:19 commercial 30:10,12 215:4,7 commission 5:4 40:19 42:1 45:5 49:21 50:19 62:19 202:1,4,6 204:20 205:4,6 213:12 258:25 commissioners 229:22 commit 65:25 commitments 125:4

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[committee - contribute] committee 21:15 27:24 28:2,6,11 28:21,24 31:21,23 32:3 33:1,7,9,20 33:22 37:4 46:8 52:1 53:17 54:11 65:22 66:24 80:19 176:21 202:3 committees 21:13 29:10 32:17 33:25 39:18,20 51:19 65:20 66:23 common 4:21 45:15,18 200:11 201:1,18 206:21 231:20 232:8,12 234:7 243:8 communicate 39:11 55:16 113:6 142:14 communicated 46:11 communicating 26:9 communication 90:14 91:5,25 97:18 145:17 147:2 communications 141:4,8,25 142:21 143:13,19 144:15 147:7,10 149:4 151:19,22 152:22 companies 20:22 20:23 company 18:2,5 47:16,18 147:2 158:24 160:21 compartments 199:7 compel 249:14 competitor 29:5 complaining 212:23

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[contributed - council] contributed 57:20 58:17 72:10 73:4 119:9,11 contribution 62:3 63:7,10 64:2,3,11 65:18 66:8 68:6 68:10 73:17 77:4 77:11,13 80:3,6 110:15 119:1,8 120:1,5 131:13,18 contributions 16:6,17,20,22,25 17:10 76:12 112:20 131:25 132:12 contributors 73:11 control 61:12,13 61:18 184:25 212:6 234:14 236:18,20,22 controlled 185:2 236:19 convenience 11:2 11:4 41:16 conversation 25:7 37:8,9,13 43:10 53:23 63:16 63:19 65:23 68:18 70:7 75:24 76:25 77:16 78:20 79:1 80:11 87:6,15 103:9 112:14 120:10,15 122:3 122:19 123:5,17 124:1,2 127:5,25 128:3,10,18,21 134:24 136:18 166:15 168:25 169:5 174:6 175:6 175:8,21 198:17 220:14 228:12 conversations 40:1 43:7 84:14 85:17 130:3

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[council - delayed] 169:10,11,12 195:14 196:12,15 199:20,21 200:11 200:18,22 201:2 201:18 206:21 231:20 232:3,8,12 234:7 243:8 counsel 43:12 207:8 249:13 258:14,16 counter 68:7,20 68:21 71:12,13 counts 33:12,17 40:25 county 15:24 48:16,16,16 92:20 112:10,11 134:7 134:11 138:5 139:2 258:2 couple 34:22 51:23 56:2,23 59:13,23 76:3,21 83:9 87:15 99:4 102:6 114:21 142:12 154:12 216:20 course 23:17 31:5 33:18 81:12 88:15 115:8 128:18 212:18 228:6 236:10 court 1:1 7:15 8:15 9:14,16 153:23 249:14,15 courthouse 11:17 cousin 13:21 56:18,20,24 cover 185:11 247:21 covered 15:15 69:7 140:1 covers 162:17 crazy 35:21 36:3 create 117:1

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178:25 205:11,17 deal's 95:7 176:12,13 dealing 32:14 49:2 dealings 47:1,4 51:5 134:14 decal 69:12 december 13:23 183:15 229:11 230:3,8 231:14,18 233:13,18,25 234:1,2,3,4 decide 27:3 235:23 decision 17:2 27:12 133:22 137:5 185:2 decisions 54:8 decorating 115:22 defendant 2:10 139:16 143:8 144:10 152:1 defendants 1:11 2:19 139:15 143:1 defensive 29:21 defer 229:9 deferment 230:15 deferred 31:24 32:1 defined 151:8,16 168:16 definitely 46:25 159:24 definition 171:3 definitions 141:22 definitive 168:19 168:21 degree 10:9,12 delafield 35:14 delayed 52:4

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[delivered - discussion] delivered 6:24 demanding 54:16 demeanor 62:8 62:11 department 34:3 45:2 56:2,3 100:6 102:22 103:1,2,5 103:6 113:20 114:20,21,22 151:23 152:23 212:15,15,17 213:9 departments 205:24 depaul 10:5,15 depends 17:9 depicting 55:8 depicts 55:7 depleted 67:8 deposed 7:11 146:14 deposit 94:17,25 deposition 1:15 7:17 16:9,10,15 152:7 258:5,8 depositions 249:19 depth 78:18 describe 30:6 31:2 49:12 53:1 59:25 61:2 63:4 70:24 85:6 described 73:15 describing 42:4 73:3,3 143:15 182:7 184:17,19 197:9 221:15 description 4:2 5:2 6:2 181:17 183:4 194:17 197:5,8 desk 71:9,10 destroy 14:6 detail 99:6 119:20 196:14

details 72:8 78:20 98:19 99:3 determination 129:20 determine 142:17 150:8 develop 87:1 170:16 181:18 developed 170:24 developer 47:24 53:2,3,10 54:1,13 54:20 85:18 204:3 227:25 228:4 251:3 developers 219:7 developing 231:25 development 22:4,8 83:1 127:1 127:2 139:3 143:15,16 146:25 151:7,20 167:6,18 168:23 169:23 170:2,12,16 171:1 174:9,19 176:8 180:21 182:19 195:25 200:10 202:2 203:15,16 203:17 206:10 210:7 212:18 214:19 215:5 217:23 235:10 244:11 246:22 247:7 248:13,23 252:2 255:25 developments 215:4,7 devine 2:7 3:5 8:20 58:19,22 109:8,12 115:11 139:22 161:4 dhsanders 2:5 dialog 211:7,9,13 dickert 1:11 7:13 33:24 46:6,13,23

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[discussions - elected] discussions 166:18,23 171:13 distribute 216:12 216:23 distributed 227:15 district 1:1,2 7:14 24:20,23,25 28:21 29:20,25 30:5 40:2 90:19,20,22 214:19 215:22 227:4,11,12,19 districts 27:25 28:17 35:15 dividends 158:17 158:18,20 divorce 154:21 divorced 146:4 164:18 document 5:4,13 5:18 113:25 114:5 140:10,16 180:6 181:3,5 189:13,16 190:8 195:7,8 196:19 204:14,17 207:19 210:1,3,9 210:15 214:10 217:10 220:12 232:21,23 234:8 239:9,11 242:5 251:15,17 documentation 160:14 224:8 226:12 237:12,14 240:1 documented 177:3 191:3,4 documents 16:14 140:3,17,19,25 145:23 149:15,22 150:8 151:2 160:3 174:7 179:17 202:14 207:20 208:2,11,12,13 217:9

doing 41:17 54:5 54:6 68:1 84:24 88:8 96:14 100:3 101:2 102:19 107:16 115:15,17 124:18 138:5 170:14 191:1 240:25 doj 115:3 153:9 153:17 dollar 110:16 116:25 177:6 dollars 50:15 63:14 69:1 83:9 138:14 148:22 don 79:17 donation 76:4 121:15 donors 78:2,3 door 156:11 double 30:24 doubting 95:10 doug 2:10,20 164:20 doug's 164:21 doughnut 70:13 doughnuts 55:20 douglas 4:4 11:1 12:1 14:1 18:17 18:20 21:14 22:10 22:14 23:14,15 24:23 26:3 27:15 27:24 28:5,22 30:7,11,13,21 34:4 35:11 37:1,3 37:4,15 41:21 42:4 44:20 55:12 80:20 156:16 157:2,12 downtown 11:18 156:18,21 157:10 157:14,14,16 171:7 drafting 217:24

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[election - facts] election 16:21 57:11,16,18,22 58:9,12,18,24 59:7 62:5 63:13 67:21 70:22 73:18 75:1 79:8 82:6,16 82:21 84:6 90:6 91:14 99:17 111:2 111:3 112:16,17 119:3,6 122:21 125:7 126:6 173:23,24 174:3 174:10 187:1,3 191:20 192:4 193:12,23 198:12 eliminated 241:20 255:16 emerald 9:19 employ 48:4 employed 149:9 149:10 157:19 employee 149:12 258:14,15 empty 149:20 ended 25:15 32:20 50:5 56:14 56:24 63:24 116:9 ends 94:15 enforce 103:2 enforcement 113:12,14,16 entailed 220:7 enter 50:21,23 219:17,25 224:2 236:25 entered 147:9 235:19 238:18 entering 228:10 entity 158:11 176:21 environment 121:10 122:12 epa 17:8 equation 132:8 132:25

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[john - knowing] john 1:11 33:24 38:19,21,22,22,25 46:6,8,13,18 47:1 49:3,14 51:16 52:9 59:12,12,18 60:24 61:7 63:17 65:25 66:4,10,10 67:6 68:4,15 69:11 70:1,10 72:3 73:25 74:3 75:8,20 76:2,11 79:13,22,23 80:12 83:19,20,23,23,25 84:4,17 85:14 86:8 88:5,16,18 88:20,25 89:13 90:1 91:8,8,10,16 92:14,23,24,24 93:21 94:1,18 95:12 96:20 97:14 97:18,19,20,24 98:1 99:13 120:9 122:16 125:13 127:19 129:10 130:8,12,14 131:2 131:3 132:24 134:3 139:20 168:1,2 175:8 176:3 177:3 178:5 180:10 193:5,5,8 193:25 247:17 john's 62:8 75:9 84:14 94:19 96:25 97:21 judges 56:2 july 4:11 180:16 jump 109:11 139:25 jumped 32:8 justice 113:20 114:20,21,22 151:23 152:23 justify 137:9

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