Page 259 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF WISCONSIN
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EXHIBITS Exhibit Description Page Marked/Identified
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THOMAS J. HOLMES, et al. Plaintiffs, vs.
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Case No. 14-CV-208
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JOHN DICKERT, et al., Defendants.
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DEPOSITION OF TOM C. TOUSIS VOLUME II
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TAKEN AT: RACINE CITY HALL LOCATED AT: 730 Washington Avenue Racine, Wisconsin July 28, 2015 9:37 a.m. to 1:10 p.m.
Exhibit 1530 .. Excerpts from a meeting on February 3, 2010 of the redevelopment authority of the City of Racine ...... 270 / 271 Exhibit 1531 .. Notice to Mr. Tousis of the resolution that was passed on February 3, 2010 .... 274 / 274 Exhibit 1532 .. Document discussing meeting cycles .............. 274 / 275 Exhibit 1533 .. Document discussing meeting cycles .............. 275 / 276 Exhibit 1534 .. E-mail to Zak Williams from Kristin Niemiec ..... 277 / 277 Exhibit 1535 .. E-mail from Brian O'Connell p. 279 / 279 Exhibit 1536 .. Assessment .......... 283 / 283
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REPORTED BY ANNICK M. JAQUET REGISTERED MERIT REPORTER CERTIFIED REALTIME REPORTER
Exhibit 1537 .. Letter dated April 6, 2010 p. 284 / 285 Exhibit 1538 .. Meeting minutes of the 4/7/10 City of Racine Redevelopment Authority ........... 291 / 291 Exhibit 1539 .. E-mail .............. 294 / 295
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A P P E A R A N C E S:
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KOHLER & HART, S.C., by Mr. Dan H. Sanders 735 North Water Street #1212 Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202-4105 (414) 271-9595 dhsanders@kohlerandhart.com Appearing on behalf of the Plaintiffs.
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MEISSNER, TIERNEY, FISHER & NICHOLS, S.C., by Mr. William T. Stuart 111 East Kilbourn Avenue, # 1900 Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202-6622 (414) 273-1300 bct@mtfn.com Appearing on behalf of the Defendants, except Doug Nicholson.
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Exhibit 1540 .. Letter from LF Green Development, LLC dated April 27, 2010 ............ 297 / 297 Exhibit 1541 .. June of 2010 RDA meeting minutes ............. 309 / 309 Exhibit 1542 .. Copy of $5,000 check dated June 16, 2010 ............ 309 / 310 Exhibit 1543 .. Image of 2100 Douglas Avenue p. 365 / 366
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Exhibit 1544 .. Composite exhibit beginning with Bates stamp ZAK14 p. 373 / 374
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Exhibit 1545 .. E-mails from 2009 ... 377 / 377
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INDEX
EXHIBITS Exhibit Description Page Marked/Identified
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MARK D. RICHARDS, S.C., by Mr. Mark D. Richards 209 Eighth Street Racine, Wisconsin 53403-1508 (262) 632-2200 mdr@racinedefense.com Appearing on behalf of Tom Tousis.
Examination by:
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Mr. Stuart ................................ 265 23 24 25
Exhibit 1546 .. E-mail from Zak to Tom Tousis p. 379 / 379 Exhibit 1547 .. E-mail string between Zak and Tom Tousis .......... 380 / 380 Exhibit 1548 .. E-mail strings between Zak and Tom Tousis .......... 382 / 382 Exhibit 1549 .. E-mail string between you and Mr. Williams ........ 384 / 384
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EXHIBITS
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Exhibit Description Page Marked/Identified 3 4 5 6 7 8
Exhibit 1550 .. Composite exhibit beginning with Bates No. ZAK000048 p. 387 / 387 Exhibit 1551 .. E-mail from Mr. Williams to Mr. Tousis .......... 402 / 402 Exhibit 1552 .. Letter .............. 404 / 404
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Exhibit 1553 .. E-mail .............. 407 / 407 Exhibit 1554 .. E-mail .............. 409 / 409
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Exhibit 1555 .. E-mail .............. 411 / 411 Exhibit 1556 .. E-mail dated 2/7/2011 414 / 414
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Exhibit 1557 .. E-mail .............. 415 / 415 Exhibit 1558 .. E-mail .............. 417 / 417
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Exhibit 1559 .. E-mail .............. 419 / 419 Exhibit 1560 .. 3/22/11 e-mail. ..... 422 / 422
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Exhibit 1561 .. Web link ............ 424 / 425
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Exhibit 1562 .. The blog post or article from the link in Exhibit 1561 p. 424 / 425
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS TOM C. TOUSIS, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn on oath, was examined and testifies as follows: EXAMINATION BY MR. STUART: Mr. Tousis, have you done anything to prepare for today's deposition? Legally or -Well, we met the last time, right? No, I haven't done anything. Did you review any documents between your last deposition and today? No, I have not, no. Did you speak to anybody about your Day 1 deposition? Besides Mark, not that I can recall. Did you talk to Zak Williams about it? Not particularly about my deposition, if I remember correctly. I know that he knew that I had one, but I didn't go into detail about what we talked about. When's the last time you talked to Mr. Williams? Oh, boy, a couple weeks ago, a week ago?
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EXHIBITS Exhibit Description Page Marked/Identified
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Exhibit 1563 .. 2/13/11 e-mail ...... 429 / 429 Exhibit 1564 .. 6/4/2011 e-mail ..... 432 / 432
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Exhibit 1565 ................... 436 / not ID'd Exhibit 1566 .. E-mail .............. 439 / 440
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Exhibit 1567 .. E-mail .............. 441 / 442
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Exhibit 1568 .. Composite exhibit beginning with Bates No. ZAK417 p. 443 / 443
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Exhibit 1569 .. 11/4/13 e-mail ...... 446 / 446
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Exhibit 1570 .. Document discussing Hartland Solutions Group ..... 447 / 447 Exhibit 1571 .. E-mails from Mr. Williams p. 451 / 451 Exhibit 1572 .. E-mail string ....... 454 / 454
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(The original exhibits were attached to the original transcript. Copies were provided to all counsel.)
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(The original transcript was delivered to Attorney Stuart.)
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A week ago? A week ago, a couple weeks ago. Was that by phone or face to face? No, on the phone. And what did you guys talk about? When my deposition was going to take place, stuff like that. He said his is not going to -- he doesn't have one scheduled yet, blah, blah, blah, stuff like that. So you talked about your depositions? I didn't talk about my depositions. Scheduling my depositions. Anything else? Not that I can recall. And how often do you speak to Mr. Williams? Once a month, maybe, once every two weeks, once every three weeks, once every three months. It depends on the -- when the phone rings. Are you guys doing business together? No. Do you consider him a friend? Uh-huh. Yes? Uh-huh, yes. So when you're speaking to Mr. Williams is it
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primarily social or is there a specific topic that you guys generally cover? No, it's usually social. He moved to Duluth, Minnesota and we're talking about the lake and farmers market and how much he liked the co-op there for groceries. When we last broke we were talking about your development, the proposed development at 3100 Washington Avenue. Do you recall that? Yes. Okay. And I think back then we, Day 1, we were calling that development the West Racine project? Sure. Is that correct? Yes. So we can agree that we'll call it that same phrase today? Sure. Okay. And I think when we broke last we were talking about how you had changed the drawings for that development? Do you recall that testimony? Yes. And you had reduced the size of the development
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A But this -- I'm going to, I just want to clarify on this because I don't remember -- I had this prepared originally with the original drawings to submit for this and pay the $5,000 down and then I think the sewer popped up last minute and then there was a delay, if you remember I was late, I asked for an extension on the purchasing the option, because I was -now, that was the reason why I was late, because of all of this was going on, I wanted to make sure it could work before I gave them 5,000 bucks so I don't remember where all the -- this might be the original option that I signed before I gave them the 5,000 bucks, I don't remember. This is seven years ago, so... Q Yeah. I think what we established the last time was is that you had signed the option agreement, you were required to pay the $5,000? A Correct. Q And you had not done it yet. A Correct. Q All right. A Right. Q And then somewhere in that mix you had revised the drawing because of the sewer line in the
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because of a sewer; is that correct? A I reduced the footprint of the development, not the size. Q And that was because of the sewer line, correct? A Correct. Q And at that point in time you had an option to purchase the property from the Racine Development Authority, correct? A I -- I don't remember or recall exactly if I had the option at that time or if I didn't have the option at that time or I didn't get it yet or I don't know, recall exactly the timeline. I thought the sewer popped up right before I purchased the option, if I remember correctly. Q Yeah, and what I'm referring to is the -- the revisions to the drawings. A Right. I did the revisions and drawings before I turned it in to submit for the option, if I remember correctly. Q Okay. And just to refresh your recollection Exhibit 234 was the option agreement, correct? A Yes. Q Okay. Just to get our dates down again does it look like it's dated --
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middle of the property? A Correct, correct. Q I wanted to make sure -A So if you go by what you just said right there I did not have an option yet because I don't have an option until I gave them 5,000 bucks. Q Fair enough. You don't have an enforcement contract. A That's correct. Q Neither you nor the city -A Correct. Q -- correct? A Correct. Q Do you recall -- well, at some point in time you were looking for an extension of the deadlines under the option, correct? A I believe so. Q All right. Do you recall going to a redevelopment authority meeting in February of 2010? A Not in particular, no. (Exhibit No. 1530 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Let me show you, you can look at 1530. All right. And these are excerpts from a meeting
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on February 3, 2010 of the redevelopment authority of the City of Racine. If you look on the second page under Item 10-4655 does it appear that the RDA is considering your request for an extension of deadlines in connection with the West Racine project? Correct. Okay. Do you know if you or somebody from your development team had attended this meeting? I don't know if I -- if someone attended it, I don't remember. Okay. At the bottom, the very last paragraph where it says Attorney Loop asked Ms. Sorenson where the survey contingency is in the option agreement, do you see that? Yes. Does that indicate that at least Ms. Sorenson was there representing you? Right, correct. All right. And at this point in time there's a reference in the notes that you had not paid the option fee. That's consistent with your testimony, right? Correct. Okay. And in the second paragraph Attorney
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Q And at the bottom doesn't it say that -A Three to one, yup. Q -- that vote passed? Mr. Tousis, this is pretty important, do me a favor and we can't speak over each other -A Sure. Q -- just because it's hard on the court reporter. A Sure, I understand. Forgive me for that. Q That's okay. So it appears that the motion passed, right? A Correct. Q And you got an extension to February 8 to pay the option fee, correct? A Correct. Q All right. And that you were then also, if you paid the option fee you were going to get an extension of the deadlines in Addendum A; is that correct? A Correct. Q So the city's working with you to give you some extra time to work on your development for the property. A It would appear that way, yeah. Q All right.
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Loop states that the option has not been activated and there's no option to extend because you hadn't paid the fee yet, correct? Correct. And that's consistent with your testimony. Correct. There's a reference in the fourth paragraph that you had never paid the fee for the previous option agreement you had with the city for the 1130 Washington Avenue site. Correct. And is that true? Correct. Okay. Is the -- in the second page on page 3 it appears that there's a vote that allows you to pay the fee on or before February 8, 2010. Do you see that? Yes. Okay. So is it your recollection that the RDA extended the time frame for you to pay the option fee? I don't remember if -- all it says there was a motion was made by Commissioner Maceman, that's it, so I don't know if there was a note on that.
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(Exhibit No. 1531 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q I'll show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1531, and just ask you whether or not this indicates that you got notice of the resolution that was passed on February 3, 2010. A Yes. Q Okay. Do you know if you ended up paying the $5,000 option fee by February 8, 2010? A I don't remember if I did it by the correct, by that date, but I can remember paying it. Q Okay. At some point you do pay it. A Yeah. Q And at that point you have an enforceable option. A Yes. Q And then are you back in the mix to get your approvals for the development at that point? A I believe -- I believe so. Q Okay. (Exhibit No. 1532 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1532. Have you seen this document before?
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Not that I can remember, but I'm sure I have. Okay. You're at least identified as the -Uh-huh. -- carbon copy on this? Yes. And looking at the substance of this document it looks like there's a discussion about what meeting cycle your plans would be on for the Access Corridor Development Review Committee and the city planned commission. Do you see that? A Yes. Q And Ms. Sorenson is indicating that she wants to be in the March cycle? A Correct. Q So again, you're working with the city at this point in time to determine which cycle you're going to be on, correct? A Correct. (Exhibit No. 1533 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q I'll show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1533. Is this another communication about which cycle you're going to be on in terms of the approvals?
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That goes into the city development and the city development disburses any kind of documentation to the RDA. (Exhibit No. 1534 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q At some point in time did Mr. Williams ask for a Phase 1 for the property? A He might have, yes. Q Do you recall those discussions or no? A Vaguely, yes. Q I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1534. Does this appear to be an e-mail to Zak Williams from Kristin Niemiec? A Correct. Q Okay. Who is Kristin Niemiec, if you recall? A She's a RCDC liaison, I guess. I don't even know what her official title was. Q So she was working with the City of Racine? A She works for the Racine County Economic Development Corporation. Q Was she involved in the West Racine project? A Her official role should have been very little involvement with there, but I don't remember exactly what her -- how -- why she was so wrapped into it, but the only thing is because
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A It would appear that way, correct. Q And this is just informing you that it appears that you're actually going to be on the April cycle now, right? A Correct. Q And that's because there was some issues with getting documents to the Access Corridor Development Review Committee? A Correct. Q All right. A I don't know if they had, if there was issues with getting the documents there, but they had issues with reviewing them in time. That's what it says. Doesn't say anything about not being there on time. Q Yeah, I mean, it was just indicating that -A They haven't had time to review the documents doesn't mean that it was there late. Q Well, that for the Access Corridor Development Review Committee doesn't it indicate that it got the materials on March 18? A They got the -- not from me on March 18. Q Some other place, you mean? A From the city development, probably, on March 18. I haven't done anything with the RDA.
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she was -- she was an Access Corridor liaison, so I -- I don't know, when I say liaison somebody that buses between groups, so she had an unofficial role in the planning for that, so... Okay. In terms of this communication it appears that Mr. Williams had asked for a Phase 1 for the West Racine property and Ms. Niemiec was responding to that, correct? Correct. At this point in time in March of 2010 did you have an environmental contractor on staff? No. On my staff? Yeah. No. You didn't hire a contractor? No. Had you done any kind of environmental assessment of the property? We did a little bit of background -- we went through their Phase 1. Now, again, these dates are, I don't, you know, remember exactly the timeline, but we went through their Phase 1 and noticed that they were missing all kinds of things that weren't on that property at one
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time. Q Okay. A Including a body shop. Q But did you have an environmental contractor that did that? A No. Q At any point in time did you ever hire an environmental contractor to review the West Racine property? A I -- I don't recall, no, I don't remember. I don't think I did, but I don't recall. Q At some point in time was there an issue with the potential assessed value of the property as a result of your redrawing? A The city had an issue with that, correct, yeah. Q Okay. And that was because this was in, again, being a TID district, right? A Yeah. (Exhibit No. 1535 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1535. Does it appear that this is an e-mail that you were copied on? A Correct. Q Okay. And this is a e-mail from Brian
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assessments are two different things, so... Q At this point in time were the discussions about how $2.8 million would not support the TID district? A There was no discussions. There was -- there was a lesson told from the city to me. Q That was the city's conclusion. A Correct. Even though the building that stands there right now is only assessed at maybe $1.2 million. Mine wasn't high enough, like 2.5 times as high. Q Did you have any reason back -A The $2.8 million -- the $2.8 figure did not come from the city. It came from my architect when they asked him what the construction costs would be in the property. The construction costs only involved brick and mortar, no computers, no refrigeration, no shelves, no lights, no gas pumps, no car wash equipment, no chair for me to sit on in my office, no air conditioning unit, no this, that, none of that, so when they took that number they ran with it. It was it their savior to expunge me from the property, period, because they said they needed their $5 million even though you'll never -Page 282
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O'Connell to a number of people, correct? A Correct. Q And is the substance of this talking about the estimated assessed value of your project after it's built? A Correct. Q Okay. And is Mr. O'Connell indicating that he had the city assessor, Ray Anderson, perform an analysis of that issue? A I didn't have them. He had him do it. Q Yeah. And Mr. Anderson found that the estimated assessed value is going to be 2.8 million. A Okay. Q Is that correct? A Correct. Q Did you disagree with that analysis? A I didn't disagree because I'm not the city assessor, so whatever the city assessor assesses anything at. Q No reason to dispute Mr. Anderson's analysis? A Well, I mean, he can assess it for 50 bucks if he wanted to. Of course there's no reason to dispute his analysis. He had the ultimate authority in assessment. Now, appraisals and
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you couldn't assess west -- the West Boulevard to Ohio Street for $5 million if you added every property along the way together. Okay. What sits in the property now? A dialysis clinic. Do you have any personal knowledge as to any of the discussions about how the dialysis clinic fits in with the TID? Do I have any personal knowledge? Yes. No, other than the newspaper said it was assessed at 1.2 something million, no, I don't. So everything you know is from a newspaper article? Correct. That is correct? Correct. I know that the building that I was going to put up was twice as big and twice as expensive, but it would have employed about four times as many people. How many people would you have employed? If I had to guess back then probably 70 people. Is that a guess? That's a guess, correct. It's a good guess. Did you ever see Mr. Anderson's analysis?
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A No, never showed us. Q And there's a indication in this e-mail that there was a memo attached? A Uh-huh. Q It says here a copy of Mr. Anderson's memorandum is attached to this e-mail. Do you see that? Did you get a copy of that? A I don't remember, no. No, I don't remember seeing it. (Exhibit No. 1536 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1536. Do you recall ever seeing this document? A No. I'm sure I did, but no, I don't remember looking at it. I doubt that they would use one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 total lines and maybe 32 words total to assess, to calculate assessment of $2.8 million on a piece of paper. Q But you don't know. A I do know. Q You do know? A I know that it takes longer than, it takes more than 34 words to get to, to come up with a $2.8 million assessment. I'm not that illiterate.
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testimony as there was no question pending. I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1537. Is this a letter from you? Correct. Dated April 6, 2010? Correct. And it's in connection with the Phase 1 environmental report? Correct. And before you had mentioned that you took issue with some of the items in the Phase 1 report. Correct. Okay. Was there any obligation for the City of Racine to provide a Phase 1 environmental -its Phase 1 environmental report to you under the option to purchase? No, but that's -- that's typical a rule, procedure to provide a Phase 1. Did you ask for any environmental warranties from the City of Racine in your option to purchase? No. Why would they? They were providing, according to them they were providing me a clean piece of property, so why would I ask for
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Q Okay. Are you trained in doing assessments? A Well, I pay plenty of taxes. Q Have you done any formal training for assessments? A No, but I would -- I could do it now that I know that's how they do it, because I can probably apply for the position knowing that you only need 34 words to do an assessment. Q You're not a licensed appraiser? A No, no. Q Did you ever take any appraiser classes? A No. Q Do you have any degrees in real estate or urban development? A No, just -- just built things, building stuff and things like that, probably more than the city development's ever done. Where's Mr. Anderson? Does he still work here or no? The assessor, is he still around? I don't think he is, is he? Probably not using enough words on his -- using speculation when he came up with assessments. (Exhibit No. 1537 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q I'm going to move to strike the last set of
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a warranty? Q Is that somewhere as a warranty in your Option to Purchase? A No. There's never a warranty in any Option to Purchase. I've never seen it, unless you're buying a very dirty site. I don't remember that on the Schaefer site here either, and that was contaminated at one time too. That was listed as contaminated. Q So the Phase 1 that you got was from a third-party environmental contractor, correct? A Correct. Q And you're identifying certain things that you believe are inaccuracies in that report? A Correct. Q Where did you get this information from? A The United States Post Office, post office location, that's probably public record there. Q But you're concluding that that facility had a mechanical repair shop proposal to the tracks. A Correct. Q Where did you get that information? A There was a mechanic that worked there. Q What was his name? A I don't recall.
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Q So you spoke to the mechanic? A I did speak to the mechanic. Q And did you speak to the mechanic sometime around April 6, 2010? A I don't recall the date. Q And did you ever have an environmental contractor review the Phase 1 report? A No. Q You also indicate -A I would have if I ended up, going further into the project. Q The second item that you claim was that there's an auto body repair shop -A Uh-huh. Q -- that was near the West Racine development site? A Correct. Q Where did you get that information? A That was in the phone book. Q That it was still operating or -A No. It was an old phone book. Q Do you recall what the name of that shop was? A It was initials. I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was something and something, two letters.
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city should pay for a Phase 2 environmental assessment? Correct. That's what you're asking for. Uh-huh. Yes? Yes. And there's nothing in the option to purchase that required the City of Racine to provide you either a Phase 1 or a Phase 2 environmental assessment, correct? Correct. So is it fair to say that at this point in time in April of 2010 that in addition to asking the City of Racine to pay for a Phase 2 environmental site assessment you're still looking for a purchase price that's paid through a forgiving mortgage? Correct. And we both agree that at this point the footprint of your development is smaller, correct? Footprint. Square footage, no. Okay. But there's no bank anymore, right? Correct. There wasn't any bank during the
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Q And the third item you mention is that you thought that a portion of the West Racine property was a dump site? A It was a dump site. Q Where did you get that information from? A From the people that filled it in. Q And who was that? A I don't recall. Some old people that used to work for Q Oil Company used to dump cast iron stoves and all that kind of garbage in there. It was actually a pond. It was a creek that ran through there. Q That's what they told you? A That's what's on the maps of Racine. There was a pond with a creek running through there. Q And then the last item that you mentioned is that a property south of the site had a discovery of industrial and construction site? A Correct. Q And what site are you referring to there? A I don't recall exactly. Q All right. So you identify these issues and you're concerned about the property now? A Correct. Q And is your -- your proposed outcome that the
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first one, when we removed the bank from the first proposal. And there's no car wash anymore, right? There wasn't a car wash in the first proposal either. The initial -- the initial discussions and the initial drawings on my end had those, but they knew those were not submitted like that. You never told the City of Racine that you were going to have bank or a car wash? Sure did, I did tell them that. They wouldn't allow -- they wouldn't allow me to hook up a car wash for less than $300,000, so... Did you -And when I reduced the -There's no question pending. All I was saying is square footage never dropped, so I just made the restaurant and the store bigger. And do me a favor. Don't put your hand in my face next time. There's no question -You can talk to me -- you can talk to me nicely. MR. RICHARDS: Guys -THE WITNESS: You can talk to me
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nicely -BY MR. STUART: Q I'm going to -A But if you put your hand in my face like that I don't -- that's not cool because I haven't done it to you. Q I'm not putting -- I'm putting my hands up. A I don't really care. Don't put your hands up. Talk to me nicely. Q And I am talking to you nicely. I haven't raised my voice. I've very calm. I'm just going to ask you to answer my questions, Mr. Tousis. That's all I'm going to ask you. Fair? A (No response.) Q Is that fair? A Very fair. Q Thank you. Did you attend a meeting of the redevelopment authority for the City of Racine on April 7, 2010? A I don't recall exactly. (Exhibit No. 1538 marked for identification.) THE WITNESS: Excuse me, I'm going to grab a bottle of water. BY MR. STUART:
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the time. Q Okay. And is the resolution here to defer the item again? A Correct. Q So again, the City of Racine has given you some additional time to try to work on the development, correct? A A deferment is not giving me additional time to work on the development, no. Q It's not? A No. Deferment means we don't want to talk about it, hopefully you go away. That's what a deferment means. Q This is a request that you made to the City of Racine to extend the deadlines, right, sir? A Right, but it didn't extend the deadlines, it deferred it. Q They didn't deny it either, correct? A Yes, they did not deny it, correct. Q Okay. So you still had additional time to work on the project and it was possible they'd still extend the deadlines, correct? A There's no guarantee that they would have extended the deadlines. I could have just worked for 30 more days and spent more money
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Q Sure. Direct your attention to Exhibit 1538 to the bottom of page 1, there's an item that's 10-4655. A Yes. Q And it appears that the RDA is still considering an extension of the deadlines for the West Racine project; is that correct? A Correct. Q Is the -- did you or one of your representatives attend this meeting? A It looks like Ms. Sorenson was there. Q Okay. Is the discussion at this meeting primarily about the potential assessed value of the property? A Give me a second here. Q Sure. A Correct. Q Okay. There's a statement in here on the third page that the property on 2100 Douglas Avenue at this point in time was assessed at 1.31 million. Do you recall that? A Correct. Q Was that an accurate statement? A Probably close. I don't remember -- I don't recall exactly what the assessed value was at
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and get nothing in return for what I did, but the deferment is not an extension. They could have voted on an extension, gave me an extension, but they didn't, they give me a deferment, which means we're not going to talk about it. Q Was Van Waangard on your development team? A No. He was a supporter of it. Q Did you -- were there certain communications that you forwarded to him? A Might have when I was having problems, yes, because he was the county supervisor for the area at the time, so he had a stake in the -in the site. That was his territory. (Exhibit No. 1539 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Mr. Tousis, I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1539. Do you recall receiving this document? MR. SANDERS: Mr. Stuart, was this produced? MR. STUART: No, it was not. It was never requested. THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't recall seeing this. I might have.
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BY MR. STUART: Q Okay. Well, Ms. Sorenson and Mr. Williams are both on this e-mail, correct? A Correct. Q And they're on your development team, right? A Right. Q And was Mr. Casey the broker that was working with the city at the time? A At that time. Q Is this indicating that the city is attempting to find ways to structure the development so that it would work with the TID? A Does it appear that they were trying to find ways to structure the development to work with the TID? Q Yes. A I don't know why that would -- why this would make this appear like they were trying to structure something to make it work with the TID. What does this got to do with making the TID work? Q Do you know what's going on in this e-mail? A Correct, yes, I do. Q Okay. What do you believe is going on? A They're putting a value on the square footage,
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million bucks. Can't put a building on the lake -- you can buy a 35,000 square foot building that overlooks Lake Michigan right now for $2 million and that's first, that's initial offering, okay, that's what they're asking. So what are you going to put on West Racine that's worth 5 million bucks? Nothing, never, ever going to happen ever worth $5 million on West Racine, not unless they build the new Packers stadium there. Never going to happen. (Exhibit No. 1540 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1540. At some point in time did you get a response from the city as to your concern about the Phase 1 environmental report? A I got a response, correct, yeah. Q Is that what this is on the third page in? A That's what it looks like, correct. Q And it's a letter from LF Green Development, LLC dated April 27, 2010? A Correct. Q Okay. And you received this document, correct? A Correct. Q Okay. Do you recognize LF Green Development as
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on different phases of that south -- that southwest corner over there between Phase 1 and phase -- in between the second build-out and the first build-out. Aren't they proposing carving a portion of the site out -Correct. -- for future development? Correct, in which we did. Which would mean that that could be used for something else? Correct. And that that might help support the TID? Correct. Okay. So they're looking for ways to structure this that might actually satisfy your development and still satisfy the TID, are they not? It would -- there's no way -- okay. Listen, you're talking about 5 million bucks. There's nothing you could put, besides the Sears Tower, next to the property there to make it 5 million bucks, so all this is just a bunch of paper. There's nothing that you're going to put on West Racine that's ever going to be worth 5
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the environmental contractor? Correct. On the Phase 1? Correct. Okay. And it looks like the contractor is going through each of your points; is that accurate? Right. And at each point is indicating that in their opinion the conditions that you were concerned about were not concerns that they're concerned about. No. That doesn't say that. Okay. Well, let's go to Item No. 1. Okay. Aren't they telling you that there's no records that the former post office site was ever used as a vehicle repair shop? That's what it says there, correct. It says historical records do not indicate that site was ever, that's what that says. Understand. But the historical records that the city gave me also told me that there wasn't a pipe running down the middle of it too.
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Q And at LF Green Development also states that the building had been demolished and that no impacted soils were observed during or following the demolition of the building and basement? A Correct. Q Do you see that? A Okay. That's fine. That's what they say, sure. Q So does that indicate then that they indicate that clean backfill was used for after the demolition? A Okay. That's fine. Q Is that correct? A Sure. Q Any reason to dispute any of these facts? A Any reason to dispute that the clean -- that there was no -- how do you observe contamination? You cannot observe contamination. Q So you're taking issue with a licensed environmental contractor. A Correct, I am, because they're not going to say that they made the mistake and skipped over that there was a body shop in the phone book.
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A Besides the mechanics dumping the motor oil in the ground? Yes. I guess yeah, that's fine, that's my answer. Q Well, Mr. -- Mr. Tousis, if you were so concerned about the environmental condition why not just walk away from the deal? A Because I wanted it cleaned up. Q But the city -A The City of Racine is -- they don't clean up sites for people? Like the Walker manufacturing site's not clean? So -Q Is this -A -- the development sites that they own they don't clean? Is that what you're telling me? Q Is Exhibit 1540, is there any indication that LF Green Development, LLC believes that any of these sites need to be cleaned up? A I don't care what LF Green believes. They missed it. And it's a Phase 1. A Phase 1 is not as detailed as a Phase 2. Phase 2 requires borings, so phase -- if they would have done the borings they would have found the contamination. Q If you look at the last paragraph is LF Green's concluding that a Phase 2 is not recommended?
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Q Do you believe that you're more qualified to make these determinations -A No, but I believe that if I bring things to somebody's attention that they miss that -Q Please let me finish my question. Please let me finish my question, okay? A Okay. Q Please? A Sure. Q Do you believe that you are more qualified than a licensed environmental contractor to make determinations about environmental sites estimates? A In general, no, but maybe this one, yes, because they obviously missed a fact there was a body shop on that site and a mechanic shop. Q Do you have any evidence that there was any release of any environmental contaminants at the former post office site? A Release? Q Yes. A What do you mean by release of contaminants? Q All right. Do you have any evidence or facts that the historic post office site was contaminated in any way?
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A According to them it's not recommended, sure, but I don't know anybody that would put a BID building in the city of Racine without Phase 2 borings. Q Okay. So you disagreed with all of the conclusions where LF Development -A LF Green is covering their butt, just like people do. Q You disagreed with all -A Correct. Q -- of the conclusions. (Reporter clarification.) THE WITNESS: Not all of the conclusions, no. BY MR. STUART: Q Which conclusions do you agree with? A That there was -- let's see, that there was no Phase 2 done, that's a conclusion that I agree with, right, because they didn't do one. Q Okay. A All right. That's it. That's what I agree with, that they never did the Phase 2. Q All right. Everything else in the April 27, 2010 letter is wrong, in your opinion. A Not everything is wrong. That's not what I
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said. I said that they missed stuff. All right. Did you -- do you believe that the -- at this point in time did you still believe that for Item 2 that the site at 3124 West Washington was contaminated? Which one is 312? It's Item 2. Oh, I remember now. Yeah, across the street you know there's actually the old gas station site across the street was contaminated and that's -- that's a background field, so if -in my experience, which in the petroleum business which would make me an expert, correct, so when you have a gas station they do do test sites across the street within so many hundred feet of that site. That's -There was a gas station across the street. Is that 3124 West Washington Avenue? I don't remember the address, but directly across the street there was a gas station -Okay. -- that was contaminated, actually making the second half of the TID on the north side also contaminated. There was a cleanup done and
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concerned about in Item 3? A Correct, yup. Q And what does LF Green say about that? A There were no buildings on that property at the time of this report, all right? Q Actually, doesn't it say that there is no data to indicate that there's any solid debris or construction debris located at this site? A That was prerecorded. They filled this stuff in before they even recorded any of this, the environmental information on the record at all, period. This is done years ago. Q Was there anything at this point in time stopping you from doing your own Phase 2 analysis? A Why would I do a Phase 2 on a property that I don't own yet? Q Because you want to do a development on it. A No. That's not how it works. People that are selling would provide me with the Phase 2, especially when there's an item in question like that. Q So every deal that you've done the seller's always provided a Phase 2? A Actually, the guy that was on the team at the
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there was a remediation done actually on the corner right on West Boulevard and -- and on my side of the street that I wanted. Have you ever reviewed -And contamination doesn't stop at property boundaries, we know that. Have you ever reviewed any documents in connection with the property that you're claiming was contaminated? Have I -- that said that that property was contaminated? Yes. That the corner's a brownfield, the corner of the specific, the corner of my property that I wanted was contaminated. How do you know that? Because it was a brown, listed as a brownfield. There was a grant for it to make it a park. When did you find out, find that fact out? I don't remember. I dug it up when I was working on it. That's what people that don't know what they're doing do, dig stuff up. The site's loaded with foundry slag. It's horrible. Isn't that Item 3, isn't that what you were
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time that probably did maybe 4 or 5,000 deals, that's the one that told us about it. Okay. Again, and if you didn't come to a meeting of the minds as to who was going to provide a Phase 2 there was nothing that prevented you from walking away, correct? No, there was nothing that prevented me from walking. There were nothing that -- that the City of Racine was ever required to provide you with a Phase 2 environmental assessment, correct? No, correct. And if you didn't like that answer you could have walked away from the deal, correct? I already had a hundred -- X amount of dollars spent on architectural fees and things that they had given me based on information that they had given me that wasn't correct, including surveys. So as of April of 2010 you still have concerns about the environmental condition of the property. Correct. And you had not reached an agreement with the City of Racine as to how to resolve those
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concerns, correct? Correct. All right. And there was still concerns from the City of Racine's perspective about the potential assessed value of your project and how it relates to the TID, correct? That doesn't come up until the end. That was their way out, so that wasn't talked about until when the last parts of the negotiations. Well, I showed you letters that were from February and April. Correct. Of what year? So as of April 2010 that was an issue? When did we start working on it? What year? It wasn't 2010. It was 2009. It was a good amount of time already gone. You started working on what in 2009? The project. If you remember, Dick Hinzman, didn't his name pop up across, in your -- in your studies there? Dick Hinzman owns the property directly to the south of that site? Mr. Tousis, let's just go over a couple ground rules again. Number one, you can't ask me any questions. Okay. I'm not really asking a question. I
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A Yes, they did. Q And that was pursuant to a mutual agreement? A Uh-huh. Q Is that a yes? A Yes. Q Okay. Do you recall when that occurred? A No. (Exhibit No. 1541 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1541. Did you or a member of your team attend an RDA meeting in June of 2010? A I'm sure somebody did, yes. Q If you look at the third page in, Item 10-4655. A Okay. Q Does that appear to be the resolution relating to giving you your money back? A Uh-huh. Q Is that a yes? A Correct. Q Okay. (Exhibit No. 1542 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1542. Is this a copy of the check
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just wanted to bring up that his site was loaded when they were developing it, so... That's number one. Number two is you can continue to not answer my questions or to offer testimony outside of the -- out of my questions, that'll make the day last longer. That's fine. I'll just move to strike it as far as I'm concerned, but this will go a lot quicker if you just listen to my question and -MR. RICHARDS: It's going to go seven hours and we've already gotten three in, so... MR. STUART: Right. All of us are interested in moving this along quickly, so if you can just answer my question and only my question that will be helpful. Okay. At some point in time did you get your option deposit back? Yes, I did. That was the $5,000? Correct. Was the city required to return that to you? No. But they did.
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returning the $5,000 to you? It appears so. And it's dated June 16, 2010? Correct. So as of this point the deal is pretty much dead, correct? Correct. You don't have any more option rights, correct? Correct. And you guys are both moving on with your lives. Correct. Now, in looking at all of the documents that we just looked at from both Day 1 and Day 2 do you have any facts that Mayor Dickert was in any way involved with your development on the West Racine project? Correct, I do. What are your facts? Communication between certain people. And what communications? Phone calls, meetings. I don't know if there was e-mails. I don't know what kind, exactly how they did it, but I know there was definitely phone calls and conversations had.
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Q Did you recall Mayor Dickert appearing at any RDA meeting? A Yes, I do. Q Is he identified on Exhibit 1541 as attending? A No. Q Is he identified on Exhibit 1538 as attending? A No. Q As you sit here today do you have any documents that would show that Mayor Dickert was at any RDA meeting that involved the West Racine project? A As of right now? Q Yes. A No, I don't, as of right now. You can give me a couple hours, get me an affidavit signed, though, if you want. Q That he was there but he wasn't identified in the minutes? A No, that was in communication with people on my team. Q Okay. Do you blame Mayor Dickert for the environmental issues on the site? A Do I blame him for the environmental issues? Q Yes. A I don't recall saying that he dumped any oil on
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Q -- any way involved with your West Racine project? A No, I don't. Q And again, you don't have any documents that show that Mayor Dickert was in any way involved in your West Racine project, correct? A That I don't -- I don't believe I do, no. Q You had testified earlier about a real estate deal that you had done with Mr. Dickert? A Correct. Q And I think you had testified earlier that you thought that that was sometime between the time frame of 2002 to 2004? A Just guessing. Maybe a little earlier. Q As we sit here today do you know when that development -A No. Q Okay. And that was when you were building houses, correct? A Correct. Q Do you recall the property location? A Bald Eagle Drive. Q Do you know the address? A No, I don't recall offhand. Q That's a house you built, right?
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the corner or anything like that, no, I don't, don't blame him for it, no. And you don't blame him for the issues -He probably wasn't alive when it happened. You don't blame him for any issues relating to the sewer line, correct? No. And -- but those were two main issues why the project failed, aren't they? No. Why do you believe the project failed? Because Mayor Dickert didn't want me to have it. The sewer line and the contamination stuff was stuff that guys that digs holes and build buildings that work around all the time. Just costs money. Did you see any documents where Monte Osterman was in any way involved? Besides him talking to me about it, you mean, no. Any documents? No, no, I haven't seen any documents. Do you have any documents in your possession that show that Monte Osterman was in -No.
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A Correct. Q Was it just you or did you have a partner at the time? A Just me. Q Do you know who the listing agent for that transaction was? A Barbara Fries. Q How do you spell Fries? A F-R-I-E-S. Q Is Ms. Fries somebody that you'd used for most of your transactions? A Back then, yeah. Q Do you recall the buyer in that transaction? A Randy and Jennifer Luter, L-U-T-E-R. Q L-U-T-E-R? A Correct. Q Do you have any of the paperwork for that transaction? A Not on file. It's all -- you could probably get it from the MLS, but I don't have it currently. Q You don't have a file. A I don't keep stuff for longer than seven years. Q So just talking about the logistics of that transaction, is that something where you listed
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the property for sale? Correct. Do you recall the list price? No, I don't. 3 something, 339, 349, 329. And prior to listing it you had an agreement with Ms. Fries? Correct. And your agreement with Ms. Fries was that she'd get a 4 percent commission? That there would be a total paid for 4 percent commission, 2 percent for the buying agent, 2 percent for the selling agent, 4 total. At that point in time, based on your experience, was it more typical to have a 6 percent commission rate? Not for builders. Are you aware of other transactions that had a 6 percent commission rate? Not for builders, not on new constructions, no. So you're not aware of any other transactions that had that rate? No, because I was a builder. Why would I know of any other transactions besides builder transactions? And is it your testimony that at some point
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bigger discount so I told John, I said you can either -- they're your friends so they can either have the discount or the higher commission, you pick, and he picked the higher commission. How much was the discount? Whatever the commission would have weighted out to be. I don't remember. Well, did he offer the list price or something above or below? I don't -- I don't recall. I mean, at that time we were prepared to negotiate on everything, so... Do you have any first-hand knowledge as to any discussions Mr. Dickert had with Randy and Jennifer Luter about the transaction? No. So ultimately they submitted an Offer to Purchase? Correct. And did it have some language in there about his listing about the commission? No. I had to go back and -- I don't believe so. I think I had to go back and revise the -the listing agreement to do so.
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Mr. Dickert showed the property to someone? A Correct. Q And then submitted an Offer to Purchase? A We had communication before he submitted an Offer to Purchase. Q What were the communications? A That if we can pay more commission he wasn't going to submit an Offer to Purchase. Q That if you were paid more commission. A Correct. Q And how much was he looking for? A I don't recall. It was probably 6 total, probably 4 for him, a minimum of 3. Q As you sit here today do you have any recollection as to what Mayor Dickert specifically asked for? A For more commission. Q I understand. The number? A No, I don't remember. Q And the higher commission cut into your -A Uh-uh. Q -- profit, didn't it? A No, it didn't. Q Why not? A Because I was going to offer the people a
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And that's with Ms. Fries. Correct. But you don't recall if that's what you did. I -- I don't recall exactly, but I believe I did that. But you don't have a copy of the listing contract? Not anymore. And you don't have a copy of the Offer to Purchase? That would be all in the title work, so... You don't have any evidence, documentary evidence as we sit here today that Mayor Dickert asked for or received a higher commission than you were willing to offer, do you. I don't have any evidence of that? Documentary evidence. In my hands at this time? Is that what you're asking me or does it exist? What are you asking me? All right. Let's starts with in your hands at this time. No, I don't have anything in my hands at this time.
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And do you believe this exists? Yes, it does. And where does it exist? Title company where the closing took place. The title company would have a copy of your listing contract? Sure. They would have a copy of the commission paid out at the closing that was paid at the closing. Okay. Which title company did you use? I believe Landmark Title at the time. Do you know ultimately what the split between Ms. Fries and Mr. Dickert was for the commission? I don't recall, but it was probably 2/4. So you don't recall. 2/4, 2/3. So you're just guessing? I wouldn't have paid more than 6 percent, so she didn't get a huge increase, which was stated 2 percent, so John got the difference, which was either 4 or 3, so -- so it's one or the other. It's more than she got, which is pretty odd that the buyer's agent gets more than the listing agent.
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Q Mr. Tousis, just a couple quick follow-up questions on the transaction with Mr. Dickert. You're not a licensed broker, correct? A No. Q Never been? A Nope. Q Do you know what the rules are for participating in the Multiple Listing Service? A What the rules are? Q Yeah. A Besides being a broker, besides being an agent? Q Do you know what the rules are when you participate in the Multiple Listing Service? A I don't understand the question. Q Okay. A You got to be -Q Do you know if there are specific rules under the Multiple Listing Service as to splits between listing brokers and buyers brokers? A Do I know -- of course there's no specific rules. You can write them any way you want, but they don't have to accept it on the other end. Not that I know. Q You've never gone to Landmark Title to pull your file for that transaction, correct?
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Q As you sit here today do you know what Mrs. Fries' commission was for that transaction? A Probably 2 percent. Q As we sit here today do you know what, for sure what Mrs. Fries's -A No. Q -- commission was for that transaction? A No, but like I said, I'm not going to say that without having documentation in front of me now. Q And the same question with regard to Mr. Dickert, as you sit here today you don't know what his commission was on that transaction? A Correct. Q I want to talk to you a little bit about the 2009 campaign contribution to the mayoral election. MR. SANDERS: Mr. Stuart, can we take a, just a quick break? MR. STUART: Sure. MR. SANDERS: Thanks. (Short break was taken.) BY MR. STUART:
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No. You don't know what records they have, do you. No. I'm sure everything's recorded on title. Do you recall today when the special election in 2009 was? No. I don't recall. Was it spring -Don't recall. -- winter, fall? You had indicated that Mr. Dickert had approached you a few times about contributing prior to the special election; is that correct? Correct. I do recall that it was cold, because he was wearing a long overcoat the first time he come to see me about money, so... But you just can't recall whether that was spring or fall or winter? It was -- it was cold. Okay. Maybe winter. I don't know. Can you turn around, please? Do you know how many times Mr. Dickert approached you for a campaign contribution prior to the special election in 2009? He stopped at this store probably three times.
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Was he unannounced each time or was it planned? Unannounced. I mean, were you surprised? Maybe he -- maybe he called me once. Okay. So two times unannounced and one time planned? If I remember correctly, yes. And am I taking it that you gave, you contributed to the campaign on the third time? I believe so, after the third time. What did he say to you the first time he went to the store? Talked about my West Racine project and how we needed a real estate mayor, a business mayor like him. What time of the day was the first visit? I don't recall. I assume you don't recall the specific day? No, I don't recall. Was anybody else present? Probably not. Probably not? Probably not. You don't recall? I don't recall, no, I don't recall. I was
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12 something. And then do two more employees come in? Two or one, depending on the day. So for this first visit you don't recall if it was morning, afternoon? No, I don't. Was there any other discussion between you and Mr. Dickert other than about the West Racine project? How is my dad, how is this, how is that, talked about his uncle Jim. That was about it. Just kind of social pleasantries? Uh-huh. Yes? Yes. And he just asked you how the West Racine project's going? Correct. Looked at, I think he asked me to look at the drawings. Okay. How long did the visit last? 25 minutes, half an hour. Where did the discussion occur? Out in the store. Might have had a cup of coffee. At that point in time had you decided to make
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there 18 hours a day for seven years, so... Are you the only person that is in the store? Am I the only person that's in the store? Yes. No. You have other employees, right? Correct. How many other employees are in the store on a typical day? Four or five, six. Was that just for BP gas station or is that for Gus's as well? That's just -- that's total. What time does Gus's open? 11:00. What time does BP open? 4 -- 4:30. How many employees are at BP at 4:30 in the morning? Two. Is that -- is that a shift for them or something or what is that? Do they work a particular shift? Yeah. The opening shift. Okay. When does the opening shift stop?
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any contributions to his campaign? A No. Q I seem to recall you saying on Day 1 that you didn't think he was going to win, correct? A I didn't want to give him money. I didn't want him to win. Q Okay. So nothing else said during this first visit? A I don't recall. I really don't recall. Q And you did not make any contributions that day, correct? A No. Q Let's talk about the second visit. Do you recall when that occurred? A No, I don't. Q Morning? Day? Morning? Afternoon? Night? A I don't recall. It would have probably been in the morning, afternoon, something like that. Q Was this the announced visit or unannounced? A I don't recall. Q Do you recall if the first one was announced or unannounced? A First one he might have called me and told me he was coming. I really don't recall. Q Would that have been a call at the store?
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Probably a call on my cell. How did he get your cell phone number? He sold a house for me. So from the time that you had the transaction in 2002, 2003, 2004? Yeah, probably. So you had the same cell phone? Uh-huh. Yes? Yes. So you hadn't changed your cell phone for the last five years? Yeah, I haven't, no. Changed the phone, not the number. Was anybody else present for the second visit? I -- I -- again, I don't recall. We had people come and go out of there all day long, so busy place, so... So anybody else participate in the discussion between you and Mr. Dickert? I don't -- I don't recall, no. I don't believe so. What was said during this discussion? Same thing. Just social pleasantries again?
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Q And when did you see him making out with women in your bar? A I used to see all the realtors make out with different women in my bar. It was a hangout for them. Q When did you see Mayor Dickert do that? A I don't remember exactly the date. It wasn't my job to record what people's personal life was about. I was trying to sell them drinks. Q Do you recall how many times you saw him do that? A Probably a couple times. Q But don't recall? A No. Q What time frame are we talking about? A Oh, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003. Q So somewhere between 2000 and 2003? A Could have been further in the past. I don't recall. I don't particularly care. Q So was there anything else said during the second visit with Mr. Dickert? A Like I said, I don't recall. That was years ago. I remember the gist of it was money. Q All right. And maybe I asked this, if I did I apologize, the first visit do you recall
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A Yeah, more money. Q So social pleasantries followed by a request for a contribution? A Correct. Q You have given to campaigns in the past, right? A Uh-huh. Q Yes? A Yes. Q It's not unusual for politicians to seek contributions from citizens, correct? A Correct. Q And you did not make any contributions on the second visit? A I don't believe I did, no. Q At that point in time you were still not supporting him. A I wasn't supporting anybody. I just didn't want him to win. I didn't like him. Q And that was based on your transaction with him in 2002, 2003, 2004? A Correct. And the different women he used to make out with in my bar, I didn't like that either. Q What bar is that? A Gibson's Steakhouse.
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whether that was the one that you think was announced but the second visit was unannounced. I -- I don't recall exactly, but yes, I think that's how it went down, yeah. All right. The third visit, do you recall when that happened? No. The third visit had to be, it was days before the election, days. It was like down to the wire. But you don't remember when the election was. No, but I just remember it was days, couple days to go. Okay. Now, between the -- prior to the third visit other than the second and the first visit had you had any other discussions with Mr. Dickert about making a contribution to his campaign? Prior to what? I'm just trying to make sure there are no other discussions you had with Mr. Dickert prior to the third visit other than the first visit and the second visit, do you recall any other discussions? Not that I can remember, no. I mean, unless I bumped into him somewhere.
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Q Nothing that sticks in your mind. A No. Q So the three visits are the only three times you can recall having discussions with Mayor Dickert about campaign contributions. A What I can recall, yes. Q So the third visit, what time of the day was that? A I have no clue, I really don't. Afternoon, lunchtime. I don't know. Q And again, this was unannounced? A I -- I don't recall. I really don't remember. I think. I don't recall. Q This is happening at, all these visits are at the BP/Gus's? A Correct. Q 2100 Douglas Avenue? A Correct. Q All right. Who else was present for your discussion with Mr. Dickert on the third visit? A I don't know. All the people that were working there. I mean, nobody was sitting there during our conversation. Somebody might have said hello to him, but our conversations were private.
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about, the storage area, that office is right next door. It's off of that area. Are they two separate rooms? Yeah, so you just walk through the storage area into my office. There's a door at the end of the storage area. Is it your office? It's my father's office. It's a business office. How often is your father at BP? Ten hours a week, five hours a week. Was your father present for either the first or the second visits? I -- I don't remember. Was your father present for the third visit? I don't -- I don't remember. There's no schedule or rhyme or reason when he's in there, so, he comes and goes when he wants. So is it fair to say that you can't recall where, what time of the day the third visit occurred; is that correct? Correct. You can't recall where you actually had spoke to Mr. Dickert? Like I said, I talked probably in the store.
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Q Where did you have -- where did you have your conversation with Mayor Dickert on the third visit? A In the middle of the store. Might have gone into the back room. I don't know, in the warehouse. Q So you don't recall where you had it? A We were moving around. I was trying to avoid people, so... Q You were out in the open in the middle of the store? A We were at one point out in the open in the middle of store. Q And then you say you went where? A It's typical, I'm not saying that I did, but it's typical for me to, for us to go in the back room and talk. I would do it with salespeople, with anybody, there was a door between us and the rest of the world then. Q What's the back room, is that a storage room? A Just a storage room, yeah. Q Do you have an office in the -A It's off -- off of that area there. Q Do you have an office at the gas station? A It's off of that area that we were just talking
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Q But you don't recall where. A You want me to say next to the doughnuts or next to the coffee or next to the soda machine? What do you want me to say? It's in the store. I mean, it's not like I'm into the shopping mall. It's in the store. Q I want -A The store is like, you know, 3,000 square feet. You could sit in the middle of it, you could see all four walls at the same time. So how big of an area do you want me to tell you where we were standing? Q Do you recall specifically going to your office? A No, I don't recall him going into my office, no. Q All right. Do you recall specifically going to the storage room? A During one of the occasions, probably. Q Do you have a specific recollection of that? A No, I don't. Probably the last one, when he was -- when he was talking about the money. Q Do you have a specific recollection of going to the storage room on the third visit? A Probably the last one. I just said that.
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Q Just want to make sure I understand your testimony, that's all. Do you have a specific recollection of going to the storage room on the third visit? A Yes. Q Was anybody else in the storage room with you and Mr. Dickert? A I -- I don't recall. I doubt that. I wouldn't have been in there with anybody else. Q And what specifically did Mayor Dickert say to you during the third visit? A That he was broke and he was completely broke, that he just threw all his money into the campaign the day or two before and he needed money to do radio advertising, otherwise he was going to lose, and I'd never get my West Racine project done if I didn't have a guy like him, so, that he owed his family money, he borrowed money against to fund the campaign from them, blah, blah, blah. Q Anything else that he specifically said? I can't deal with blah, blah, blah. I just want to know what he specifically said. A For what he needed the money for? Q No. Is there anything else that he
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Q And how much money did you decide to give him that night? A I didn't decide to give him anything. He asked me -- he told me how much he needed in total and he had X amount of guys that he had earmarked to get the money from to finish the campaign out, but that wasn't my idea. Q All right. So how much -A $50 would have been fine with me. Q He leaves the store after asking for some money, you think about it, and you make a decision to give him money. How much did you decide to give that night? A I didn't decide. He asked me how much to give him. Q When did he do that? A He told me in the third meeting. Okay. It wasn't a decision that I made. Q So how much did he ask you for in the third meeting? A I think 1350 bucks. 1350 or 1550, it was one of the two. Q So at that night did you decide to give him the 1350? A It was either 1350 or 1550.
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specifically said to you during the third visit? Not that I can recall. All I remember is him talking about the money, that's it. Okay. And you decided to give him money during the third visit? I didn't decide then. I thought about it after. So he leaves? He left, yeah. Okay. And then you thought about it? Then I thought about it. Did you have a discussion with your father? Well, not about the -- maybe briefly. I just told him that he had asked us for money, so I didn't really discuss the, going -- maybe I informed him that he asked us for money, but I didn't really talk to him about, you know, doing it or not. All right. At some point had you come to a decision to contribute to his campaign? Yes. And when did that occur? Probably that night, maybe, after the third meeting.
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Okay. Did you decide to give him that money? Yes. I didn't have a choice. What happens next? I don't know if I called him and told him that -- that -- maybe that was the second meeting and the third meeting was when he came in and I told him yes and then he sent -- he had -- he had the jar with him and then -So now you're remembering things about the second meeting? I'm remembering, I'm trying to remember how this went down. This is seven to eight years ago. You testified about this already, sir. I don't really care, because I'm not -- I'm trying to remember -- now if you want me not to correct my statements and give you accurate information I'll do that too, that's fine. What do you want me to do? Would you like me to -Is it your testimony now that at the second meeting you had discussions about contributing a specific sum of money? I think so, yes. Now that I know -- now that I'm thinking about it, yes. The third meeting
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I think was just to tell him yes. Q That's not something that you remembered on the first day of the deposition, huh? A No, I don't remember seven years ago. You know how many people come through my store? You think I think about John Dickert, I have a poster of him in my house or something or what? I could give two shits about John Dickert. Q Okay. So you call Mr. Dickert and let him know that you're going to do a contribution? A Told him to come and see me. Q You called him? A I believe I did, yeah. I didn't do it telepathically. Q Where did you call him? A On his cell phone, probably. Q When did you call him? A I don't remember. Before the election sometime. This is all within two weeks of the election. Q What happens next? A During which meeting are we talking about? Q After your phone call to him what happens next? A He comes in. Q What specifically do you say to him during the
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Q That's not what you said on the first day, though, is it. A He said the story was to say that he put it on the counter, okay, but he knows that in that 35 minutes I'm not going to put $1500 worth of cash in front of any homeless people that walk in my store. They're not going to contribute to John Dickert's campaign, okay? He knows exactly what he told me. Told me to get the jar and this is what everybody was doing, to say that it was a collection, but it was not a collection, it was a collection from me. Q Did he tell you to take the jar and put it on the counter? A No, he did not tell me to put the jar on the counter. He gave me about 45 minutes to put the jar on the counter, okay? Zak was by how much longer, within a couple hours. Q When did Zak pick up the jar? A I don't know, a few hours later, next morning. It was immediately after. Q A few hours later or the next morning, is that correct? A Correct. Q Did he show up unannounced?
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phone call? "Come and see me." That's all you said? Yeah, to -- short and sweet, yeah. Okay. And what happens next? Told him, "Come and see me," shows up, and I told him that we'd give him what he wanted and he left a jar with a Dickert sticker on it and told me how to do it and that he would send the guy over to pick it up. He said that everybody was doing it that way. When did he come -- he came to the store again? To the third meeting? Yeah. And you just don't recall when that occurs in terms of time of the day? No, I don't. It had to be before 5:00, 5:30 because I always left at that time, roughly. And nobody else participates in the discussion other than you and Mayor Dickert on the third day? I believe so. So he gives you the jar and told you to put it on the counter? No, gives me the jar and tells me to put money in it.
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A Did Zak show up unannounced? Q Yes. A No, I knew Zak was coming. Dickert told me Zak was coming to get it. I don't know when exactly he was coming to get it. Q So you didn't have a set time for -A He might have. I was there all day long. I work, so you can come in at anytime and see me. Q Do you have a set time? A No, I don't believe I did have a set time. Q And you can't recall when he picked it up, which day. A No. Day or two before the final election, before the election. Q So what specifically did Mr. Dickert tell you when he gave you the jar? A Put the money in it and the guy will come back and pick it up. Q Do you recall answering the question from Mr. Sanders on the first day of your deposition about the same issue? A Do I recall? Q Yeah. A What specific question? Same -Q Do you recall saying, "He provided a jar with
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John Dickert for mayor sticker on the front of it and said to take any contribution, pass it to my customers, like leave it on the counter and collect money, that's the story he was giving me," do you recall that? That Sanders asked me? That's your testimony, sir. I said that -- I told Sanders that Dickert told me to put the money on the counter? What I read you is your testimony. Okay. Well, that's not what I said. So maybe somebody misunderstood. That's the story that everybody was supposed to know about, but that's not what I said and that's not what John Dickert told me to do, so maybe somebody -maybe because I have a Greek accent maybe the first stenographer didn't understand my words. You have a Greek accent? Yeah, I have a Greek accent because I have a Greek father. Just like people have Italian accents. On Day 3 Mr. -- you don't give Mr. Dickert any money, correct? No. I didn't give Mr. Dickert any money. You've never given Mr. Dickert any money, have
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contribution? Yes. Yes. When did you talk to your father? I don't recall. I don't really have to talk to my father too much. Your father owns Better Day BP, correct? Correct. And he owns Gus's Gyros, correct? Yup. So did the money come from Better Day BP and Gus's Gyros? Originally, yes. What do you mean by originally? Yeah, that's where it comes from. It was taken out of -- taken out of petty cash. We have to make bank and fill an ATM machine and things like that, so there's plenty of cash laying around at all times at our store. Did you ever tell John Dickert where the money came from? Why would I tell him where it came from? It came from our business. Why would I tell him -- it came from my grandma? What am I supposed to tell him where it came from?
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you. A No, no. Q So do you fill the jar up on the same day that Mr. Dickert gives you the jar? A Or right before they picked it up, probably. Q Right before Mr. Williams picked it up? A Uh-huh. Q Yes? A Yes. Q Where did the money come from? A Sales. Q So did you take it out of the cash register? A No. You don't have to take it out of the cash register from previous day of sales. It's in my office. Q So did you take it out of the safe or something? A Yeah. Q And -A That's where you get money. Q Did your father know you were making the contribution? A Yes. Q Did you talk to him about it? A Did I tell him that we were making the
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You never told him, correct? No. And your father approved paying this money? Well, he wasn't happy about it. We had no choice. Did your father approve paying him the contribution, sir? We didn't have a choice. That's not an approval. Your father knew about the contribution before it was made? Yeah, he knew about the contribution, yeah. Did he know how much you were going to contribute? Yes. And how much did you put in the jar? Same thing I just told you. 1300, 1500? 1350 or 1550. Who manages the books for Better Day BP? Our accountant. Who is that? Felle and Lundgren. Were they the accountant at the time you made in 2009?
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MR. SANDERS: I'm sorry, could you repeat that? THE WITNESS: Felle, F-E-L-L-E, and Lundgren, L-U-N-D-G-R-E-N. BY MR. STUART: Who do you specifically work with over there? Robert Felle. Was there any accounting of this contribution on the books? Just, I told you, you don't have to, it came out of petty cash. So who does the daily deposits for the store? Our manager. Are you the manager? I have a cousin that is the manager. And how often do they do the deposits? Every day. At the end of the day? At the end of the day. We have on hand petty cash, like I just said, every day we have to fill an ATM machine, we have to make bank backs for the next day for all our cashiers, which are many. There's always tons of cash laying around the store. If you don't want it to take
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to be sarcastic when this goes on six hours he can be sarcastic. MR. STUART: All right. MR. RICHARDS: I'd love to see the law where it says he can't be sarcastic. MR. STUART: I'm just trying to get a clear record, Counsel. THE WITNESS: I gave you a clear record. You asked me three times. BY MR. STUART: So nobody else was present when Mr. Williams picked up the jar? Nobody else was present, no. Where did you keep the jar before Mr. Williams picked it up? In the safe. And the safe is in the office? Yes. So Mr. Williams comes in, you, what, take him to the office? I went into the office. I didn't invite him in, but I took him back out into the storage room and gave it to him there. I'm not going to invite anybody into my office I don't know. How long do you think the meeting with
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so long you don't have to ask me the same question three times then. Where do you store the petty cash? In the safe. Did you have any discussions with Mr. Williams when he picked up the jar? No. "How are you, nice to meet you, thank you very much," handed him the jar. I didn't know the guy, I'm not going to talk about anything with him. Was anybody else present when Mr. Williams picked up the jar? Just the police department. No, there was nobody else. It was in the back room. I told you that's where the jar was, it was in the back. Nobody was there. I wouldn't do that in front of anybody else. Mr. Tousis, I'm going to ask -Nobody was there. I already answered that earlier. Nobody was there. We were in the back room when Zak came to pick up the jar. I'm going to ask you to not be sarcastic. Okay. Well, then don't ask me over and over again -MR. RICHARDS: I object. If he wants
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Mr. Williams lasted? A Three minutes. Q How long do you think the third visit with Mr. Dickert lasted? A 20 minutes. Q After the -- after Mr. Williams picks up the jar did you have any discussions with Mr. Dickert about the jar? A Didn't you ask me during the first deposition all this stuff? You sure did, right? We talked about going to Salute at the party and all that stuff like that, so do I got to answer all these questions again? We talked about this already. Q I'm asking specifically about a discussion -A Yeah, we did specifically talk about the jar. Remember you asked me specifically about the jar, I went down to Salute, how everybody was thanking me about the money. You asked me that already. Q Well, actually, I haven't asked you any questions about this. That may have been Mr. Sanders. This is the first time -A No. Sanders didn't ask me about Salute's, you asked me about Salute's, who was there, what
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was -- who was thanking me, you asked me that. I just want to know about your specific discussions with Mr. Dickert, Mr. Tousis. Right. Are you saying that you had a discussion with Mr. Dickert at the victory party? Yes. Okay. And what was specifically said? Thank you for the money, thank you for the help, thanks for backing me up. Is that it? Thank you for the money, yeah, that's it. Okay. Is that the only other discussion you've had with Mr. Dickert about your contribution? The only -- no. Any other discussions? I saw him at a couple parties, talked about, you know, he always talked about being able to retire, something he wanted to throw a fundraiser and do it again and he wanted me and my friends to contribute to retired debt for him for the campaign. I'm asking about specifically about the -Yeah. -- contribution that --
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A I don't recall. I said I don't recall. What part of I don't recall did I say wrong? I don't recall. Q Do you recall -A I don't recall when we talked about it. Q Please let me finish my question, okay? You don't recall how long after the contribution you had a discussion with Mr. Williams about it? A Correct. Q Years? A No. I doubt it was years. Q And what was talked about with you and Mr. Williams? A About the money? Q About your contribution at the third visit, did you have a specific discussion about that? A No. Just told me that Mr. Dickert had jars all over the place, that was what he told me. Q But you have no personal knowledge of that, correct? A I have no personal knowledge of that? No, because there wasn't any jars anywhere, that's why I wouldn't have any personal knowledge, because when I was sitting in Ivanhoe,
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A What do you think he was asking me about? Do you think maybe he wanted another jar? That's what he specifically, that's my answer. Q Mr. Tousis -A He wanted me to go do it again, that's what I'm telling you. Q I'm asking about the contribution that you made during the third visit, did you have any specific discussions with Mr. Dickert after you made the contribution other than the one time at Salute? A No. He just asked me about more contributions, that's what I'm trying to tell you. Q Yeah, additional contributions. A Yeah. Q Did you have any specific discussions with Mr. Williams about the contribution that was made on the third visit? A At what point? Q At any point after the time that he picked up the money. A I don't recall. I'm sure I did. I don't recall. Q When is the first time you would have talked with Mr. Williams about that?
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according, there was a jar there. There was no jar on the counter. Nobody asked me to put money in it. How would I have personal knowledge of it? So you saw a jar at Ivanhoe? I said when I was sitting at the bar at Ivanhoe there is no jar there. Okay. Okay. So I didn't see that jar, so how would I have personal knowledge of it, because there wasn't a jar anywhere in the city of Racine. All right. You never saw any other jars. Correct. Do you recall any other discussions with Mr. Williams about the contribution that you made on the third visit? What -- why would I have a conversation with Williams when Dickert was there during the third visit? Why would I have a conversation with Williams? I'm asking about afterwards. I had a conversation about the contribution? Yes. You just asked me that. Didn't you just ask me that?
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Q I just want to make sure I have all of your discussions down with Mr. Williams. You testified as to one discussion. Did you have any other discussions? A All right. But you just asked me that exact question just back-to-back, so no, the same answer. Q No, okay. No other discussions, correct? A Whatever I gave you my first answer that's, my answer stands. That's the same one she just typed up. MR. RICHARDS: Asked and answered, objection. BY MR. STUART: Q Okay. Just want to make sure I understand your testimony. You had no other discussions with Mr. Williams about the jar? A I'm going to tell you again, whatever I just gave you the answer, that's my answer. I'm done answering that question, so give me a new fresh question. Q You're refusing to answer that? A I already answered it. I'm done answering. How many times do you want me to answer the same frickin' question? It was exactly the
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Sure. How was that set up? Through my attorney. Did you have any discussions with Zak Williams about that meeting before it was set up? No. Not that I recall, no. Is that something that you set up or did the FBI call you? The FBI, I just said the FBI called him and then he called me. (Pointing.) Okay. You're pointing to your attorney. Right. Mr. Richards. Right. And you had no discussions with Mr. Williams prior to, about you giving that interview before you gave it. Not that I recall, no. Not something that I really wanted to do, so you know. Do you know if Mr. Williams was also interviewed by either the FBI or the DOJ? I would assume so. Do you know? I don't know exactly, no, I don't know if he was interviewed by both. I don't recall.
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same question you asked me, exactly, not even twisted. At some point in time you met with the Department of Justice; is that correct? Yes. When did that occur? I don't recall exactly. You already asked me this too at the first deposition. I think -I'm taking a leak, okay, because you already asked all these fuckin' questions the first time. You remember asking them to me too. I'm not fuckin' stupid. Okay, look at my attorney like I'm out of fuckin' control. Ask me the same shit fuckin' two times like I got nothing better to do than sit around here and listen to this bullshit. (Witness exits proceedings.) (Short break was taken.) (Witness reenters proceedings.) BY MR. STUART: Mr. Tousis, I think you indicated that to the best of your recollection the meeting with the FBI or the DOJ occurred sometime in 2014, is that consistent?
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Do you know if he was interviewed by either? Don't know. I really don't know. And what did you discuss during the interview? I could have sworn I answered this during the first deposition. Did I not already answer this? MR. RICHARDS: You did. THE WITNESS: I sure fucking answered it the first time, right? So why do I got to keep repeating myself? You already have the transcript from the first one. Why can't you look at that if you're looking for an answer? It's the same thing. BY MR. STUART: Mr. Tousis -No, I am not doing this. I got kids at home. I already answered the question. You're entitled to the first answer, not to ask me over and over again. I'm done. I didn't ask you -Yeah, you did answer it, yes, you did answer it. My attorney is right there shaking -- he's shaking his head up and down right now like he agrees with me. I did not ask these questions.
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Okay. Who asked them then? Please let me finish. Who asked them? Please let me finish. I did not personally ask you -Yes, you did. -- these questions. You personally asked me this. MR. RICHARDS: You went into this area. MR. STUART: No, I didn't, Mike. THE WITNESS: Yes, you did. MR. STUART: I'll show you the transcript. I really didn't. MR. RICHARDS: I'd love to see the transcript. MR. STUART: Sanders did. I did not. Now, I'm even, still, I'm entitled to get into the specifics of what they asked you about. If you want to continue to be upset about that -If you want to rehash and say that you did have -- told me during the first deposition and you're not going to elaborate from there, but that's not what you're asking me. You're asking me, saying the same thing the first time
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the questions, Tom, but this was gone into. BY MR. STUART: Q I believe that Mr. Devine went into it. A Devine was talking about Monte Osterman being an idiot. Devine talked to me for 45 minutes about Monte Osterman being a schmuck. That's what he talked about. Like Monte got hit in the head when he was a little boy and that's why he does stupid things now. That's what he was telling me. MR. STUART: I want to look at pages 152 and 153, that's where I asked. That was the extent of my examination. Lines 22, 25. MR. RICHARDS: I'm looking. MR. STUART: If you want to look at Mr. Sanders' testimony I'll show you that, or his questioning I can point that out to you right at the end of his exam, his questioning. MR. RICHARDS: This was about the profer. MR. STUART: Now, why don't you take a look at pages 114 and 115, which is Mr. Sanders. THE WITNESS: I'll clarify. "Other than the time that you had given an interview
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that I told you. That's what you're asking me. I never asked -You sure did. I'm not dumb. My -I'm not here because I'm fuckin' stupid. My examination, sir, was about, primarily about your developments in West Racine. Yeah, okay. And I forgot everything else then. I made it up all. I sat there for six fuckin' hours over there making, talking about West Racine. Are you going to answer my question? No, I'm not. I already did. Check the transcript. MR. RICHARDS: Let me check the transcript before we go on. THE WITNESS: You asked me if I signed a profer letter, you asked me if I had a copy of that. So who asked me all that? BY MR. STUART: I did ask you if you signed a profer letter. Yeah, okay. So you went into that area, right, so you were in that neighborhood. He already knows I got a profer letter, so why -MR. RICHARDS: You can still answer
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to the DOJ had you given any statements to anyone else? The time that you met with Mr. Sanders was a court reporter present with you?" That's you, man. I don't know what the fuck I'm reading here, but that's you. MR. RICHARDS: Tom -THE WITNESS: What? MR. RICHARDS: -- he can ask you about -THE WITNESS: Over and over again? MR. RICHARDS: He did not go into the specific topics. THE WITNESS: Okay. So then ask the question, you said in the first statement that you did -- okay, and I want to ask you a question about it. Don't ask me the question, trying to trip me up. That ain't going to happen. You can be polite to me. BY MR. STUART: I have been nothing but polite to you, sir. Okay. All right. I haven't raised my voice. That's good. I have been calm through this entire deposition.
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A Yeah, very important. Beautiful. Q Now, what was discussed during your interview with the DOJ? A My dealings with Dickert. Q Anything else? A That's it. Q And what specifically about your dealings with Dickert? A About the money. Q About your contribution? A Yes, my contribution. Q Anything else? A I don't want to call it a contribution. It's not a contribution. Q Anything else? A That's it. Maybe West Racine a little bit. Q Do you recall anything else? A No. Q Is it your understanding that you are protected from prosecution at a federal level as a result of any statement that you gave to the DOJ? A Correct. Q Do you have that same protection from the Racine County District Attorney's Office? A No, I don't, apparently.
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A Minority like they own a small percentage or are they minority like a black guy? Q Minority as in race. A No. Q Would you agree with me that the store at 21 Douglas Avenue is not located in downtown Racine? A Correct. Q It's on the northwest side of the city of Racine; is that correct? A North side. Q North side? A It's considered north side. (Exhibit No. 1543 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Mr. Tousis, Mr. Sanders had asked you a series of questions about the development of the 2100 Douglas Avenue site during Day 1 of your deposition. Do you recall that? A Sure. Q Okay. I just want to make sure that I understand that -- that I understand pictorially what we're talking about -A Okay. Q -- fair enough? So what I've shown you is
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Q Did your father, does your father have a profer agreement with the Department of Justice? A No. Q Does he have any agreements with the Racine County District Attorney? A No. What would he have an agreement for? For doing what? Q Is it true that TTHD, Inc. is the owner of Better Day BP and Gus's Gyro? A TTDH, Inc.? Q TTHD, Inc.? A TTDH, Inc. Q Thank you. And is your father the 98 percent stockholder of that? A He is. Q And you are a 2 percent stockholder? A I am. Q So is that the operating entity for both the gas station and the restaurant? A It is. Q Your race is white, correct? A Yes. Q And your father is also white? A Yup. Q There are no minority owners in TTDH?
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Exhibit 1543. Do you recognize the image on the first page of that exhibit? Yes. What is that? 2100 Douglas Avenue. So this is the Gus's Gyros and Better Day BP site? Correct. And are we looking at it from Douglas Avenue end? Correct. And then what's the second page? Douglas Avenue south. So I'm looking south on Douglas Avenue? Correct. And is Better Day BP on the right-hand side of the picture? It is. What's on the left-hand side of the picture? Looks like there's a gas station -Correct. -- across the street. Yeah. Mitch and Marty's Citgo. And the third page, is that the Citgo station that's across the street?
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A Correct. Q Is this, is the Citgo station the station that was existing at the time that you were seeking to develop the Better Day BP site? A Correct. Q And how long had this been in existence before Better Day BP, before you developed Better Day BP? A Probably 50, 60 years. Q Okay. So a long-time business. A Right. Q You had provided some testimony to Mr. Sanders about the Douglas Avenue revitalization committee. Do you recall that? A Yup. Q And just so I'm clear is that a neighborhood group? A Pretty much, yeah. Q Meaning it's business owners in the neighborhood? A Correct. Q That are not -- it's not an entity of the City of Racine, correct? A Correct. They're under advisory of the City of Racine, but they're not...
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They tried. They never did? Nope. That's a no? That's a no. You had provided some testimony about a meeting where you believed they were going to reverse their decision. Do you recall that? Yup, yes. Okay. You did not attend that meeting? Nope. No, I didn't. Do you know who did? Rick Heller, former city -- head of the city department zoning. He was one. How do you know that? Because -- because I just know that. I don't remember how I know that, but... Did somebody tell you that? Probably Gary Becker. Do you recall a discussion with Mr. Becker about that? Vaguely. I was keeping tabs on my project, so I wanted to see who was doing what, of course. Is everything you know about this alleged second meeting of the revitalization committee
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Q Advisory like in the same capacity as -A If I remember correctly there are -- Brian O'Connell or Matt Sadowsky or somebody sits on it with them, so... Q But they're not -- they're not under the City of Racine umbrella, correct? A No, no. Q Meaning they have no decision-making authority? A According to them they do. According to City of Racine they say that you need approval from them before the City of Racine will give you their approval, so... Q But in an advisory capacity. A Well, if they say no it's pretty much a no, so that's a pretty good advisory. Q It's a citizen group, though, at the end of the day, correct? A Yup. Q All right. And if I understand your testimony correctly the Douglas Avenue Revitalization Committee approved the 2100 Douglas Avenue development? A They did, yes. Q Okay. Never -- and they never reviewed that rule?
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from a discussion you had with Mr. Becker? No. What else do you know? Rick Heller was there. Did you talk to Mr. Heller? I did at the time. When did you talk to Mr. Heller? I don't know, the next day, the following Monday. What did he tell you? That Brian O'Connell -- that Becker sent him instead of Brian O'Connell and then when he got there they canceled the meeting. Is that it? Yup. Okay. And that's -- that's vaguely. I mean, that's going on, let's see, 2007, 2006, so we're talking ten years ago, so I'm doing the best I can to remember that. And you got the approval from the Access Corridor, correct? I got approval from everybody eventually. Okay. You claim that at some point Mayor Dickert was supportive of the Better Day BP
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project? Mayor Dickert was supportive of me because I was friends with Gary Becker. What's the basis for that conclusion? What's the basis for that conclusion? Why -- how do you know that? Because that's how it goes. Is that just what you're assuming? Well, me and John aren't particularly friends, so if he was kissing my butt for three years because Gary Becker was mayor I would imagine it had something to do with Gary Becker being mayor. So you're assuming, is that correct? Sure. Assumptions go a long way in politics. At some point you testified that Mayor Dickert told you he was going to help your project by taking some kind of a vote in connection with another gas station? Do you recall that testimony? No. My project was already built. Okay. Did you attend the -- and I think you were talking about a BP station on Rapids Drive; is that correct? Correct, yeah.
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A Over the phone. Q Nobody else was on the phone besides you and Mr. Dickert, correct? A No, no. Wasn't a party line. Q Did Mr. Dickert make any other statements about Mr. Atout? A No. Q Did you take any notes of that discussion with Mr. Dickert? A No, I didn't. I was driving. Q So nothing in writing about this discussion, correct? A No, no. My stenographer was off that day. Q I had asked you some questions the last time we met about a contract that you had with Mr. Williams after the special election in 2009. Do you recall that, those questions? A Yes. Q Okay. I think at the time you could not recall what the terms of the contract were? A Correct. Q Okay. (Exhibit No. 1544 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q I'm going to show you what's been marked as
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Q Did you attend the meeting where whatever vote Mr. Dickert was referring to was taken? A No. Dickert just called me after and told me about it. The guy's name that they voted on, his name was Ahab Atout, if you want me to get his number. I could call him if you want. Q Ahab what? A Ahab Atout. Q Do you know how to spell that last name? A A-T-O-U-T. Q A-T-O-U-T. He owns the Rapids Drive BP? A He built it and developed it. Q You at some point claim that Mr. Dickert used the term "towel head" to refer to another gas station owner? A Uh-huh, yes. Q Do you recall specifically when that discussion occurred? A Same time that he told me about Ahab Atout. Ahab Atout was the towel head. Q Same discussion? A Correct. Q One discussion? A Correct. Q Was this over the phone or in meeting?
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Exhibit 1544. I'll represent to you that this is a composite exhibit, which means that these are documents that I think were, they're separate documents, but I think that they are related so I put them all in one packet, okay? Okay. So I'm not trying to trick you, I just wanted to let you know up front that when we have composite exhibits these are things that for ease of reference I put in one stack, all right? Okay. So looking at the very first page of Exhibit 1544, which is ZAK14, this appears to be an e-mail between Mr. Williams and a Mark Goff. Now, do you know who Mark Goff is? I met him once. Is that the person that Mr. Williams is working for when he was doing his work for you on the West Racine project? I believe so. He's describing terms of what he believes to be your contract, and I just want to see if this refreshes your recollection as to what the terms were.
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A Okay. Q That's -- you can look at all three documents because they're kind of the same thing and then there's an agreement at the end, which I want to see if that's the agreement you ultimately entered into. So all of this is, by the way, trying to refresh your recollection. A This contract was not signed. This wasn't the original proposal that they had given to me, but... Q What do you think is different about the one that you signed? A It was probably similar to this. I was all performance based, so... Q When you say -- when you said "this" you were pointing to the first page? A To the e-mail. Q That indicates that you were going to basically pay $4,000 up front; is that correct? A No. It was $2,000 -- $2,000 this weekend and on July 15, so what is that, two weeks later. Q So is that kind of $4,000 up front? A It's not up front. $2,000 up front it looks like to me. Q Okay. But $4,000 payable within a month.
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Q Okay. So $6,000 performance based? A Correct. Q And did you have a written agreement with him, to your recollection? A I don't remember. I'm assuming I did, you know, I wouldn't have gone into a deal like that without -- without a contract, but I don't have anything previous to my divorce, so... Q And is that because your ex-wife has the computer or something? A It wasn't on a computer. Just boxes of paper, so... (Exhibit No. 1545 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Mr. Tousis, I'm just showing you some e-mails from the 2009 West Racine, in 2009 for the West Racine development that I just want to get some clarification on. Do you recall your testimony on Day 1 that Brian O'Connell was looking for a zero setback development? A Okay. Q Do you recall that testimony? A Right. Q Okay. Who -- looking at this, at the top it's an e-mail from Zak Williams to you, correct?
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Correct. Is that correct? Correct. All right. And then the additional was performance based? Correct. The additional money if the development was developed? Right. Do you recall what the terms of the additional money was? The performance-based stuff? Yes. Getting licenses, getting, you know, the TIF money or -Actually, just the money, how much, how much Zak would get if the development was developed. If it was all done with TIF money? Yes. If it was all done with TIF probably 10K. Okay. So 4,000 guaranteed and another $10,000 performance based. Right. Yes? $10,000 total.
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A Correct. Q All right. And at this point in time in August of 2009 Mr. Williams is working on your development, correct? A Correct. Q All right. Do you know who Kennedy Smith is? A Yeah. That was a consultant that they hired for -- for proposed uses for West Racine. Q Who hired? A The city. Q So she was -- is it a man or a woman, do you know? A I don't remember. Q Okay. But Kennedy -A I believe it was a woman. Q So Kennedy Smith is somebody that the city hired. A Right. Q And is she proposing a zero setback here? A That was a zoning rule, zero setback thing. My -- my -- my development was at zero setback. Q I think, isn't she proposing that the gas pumps be in front and the storefront, or I'm sorry, the storefront be in front and the gas pumps be in the back?
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A Let me read. I don't know if she's proposing that, but they had already done a plan that had a bunch of -- of -- or they had -- they had provided us with a plan or, you know, similar -- similar projects that they'd showed us, and one of them was that, with the -- with the pumps in the back. Brian O'Connell was a fan of the pumps in the back thing, so, which might work in a very urban area, but not, you know, not -- not on that site. You can't hide them. So she had showed us a couple -- and she was actually in favor of -- of a gas station use of that property, so... Q Okay. But in looking at the e-mail at the top you didn't agree with her assessment, correct? A The picture -- well, it wasn't her assessment, it was just she showed us some examples and it was just, they were just horrible. I mean, my site looked phenomenal compared to what they were using as good examples, so... Q Okay. (Exhibit No. 1546 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1546. This is an e-mail from Zak to you, correct?
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string between you and Zak Williams; is that correct? Okay. Yes. There's a -- there's a reference from Mr. Williams to you where he says, "John Shannon may be the hammer, but I am the dagger in the back of the dart -- I'm the dagger in the back in the dark alley." Do you see that? Sure. Do you know what Mr. Williams is talking about there? No, not really. He's good at metaphors, so that's what happens when you go to a school for a long time. No, no. John Shannon was the attorney, so I understand what the hammer means, it means to hammer away, I guess, but the dagger in the back in the dark alley, no, I don't. The context of this is some kind of meeting where Mr. Williams thinks that Mr. O'Connell is trying to keep him out of the room, is that -That may very well may have. I don't know. Zak was my consultant. I hired the guy to do something. What he did all the time I couldn't really...
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A Correct. Q And there's a reference to getting Van's number? A Correct. Q Is that Van Wanggaard? A Probably. Q Was this in connection with the development? A Well, Van was just the proponent for it, so he was showing up at meetings and I don't know if it was -- I'm sure it did have something to do with the development because Van was against my development in the beginning and once he went through it and saw our proposal he liked it, so... Q Again, he wasn't on your development team at this time. A No, no, no. He was county supervisor. He had political stake in the site and it was in his backyard, so... Excuse me one second. I got a car wash problem, so... (Exhibit No. 1547 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Let me show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1547. This, again, appears to be an e-mail
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Q All right. So you don't know what he's referring to there. A Not really, no. Zak's good at that, though, says things like that. It's actually funny. (Exhibit No. 1548 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1548, and again, I can tell you that all of what I'm marking right now are all e-mail strings between you and Mr. Williams, okay? A Okay. Q So I don't have to say it over and over again. Do you recall this e-mail string with Mr. Williams? A No. Q And Mr. Block? A No. Q Who is Mr. Block? A That's who used to run the Racine Post. Q Who was making the statement, "Dickert is a fucking moron"? A Where is this? Q At the very bottom, is that Mr. Williams? A I guess. Looks like it. Q Do you recall getting this from Mr. Williams?
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A Not really, no. Q Did Mr. Williams ever express that opinion to you? A Oh, "Did you see the JT, the JT article on his ten-year plan?" Yeah -- well, I remember the context of this, but I don't remember this e-mail. Q Okay. A It was about John Dickert saying that he had the plan in his head. Q Okay. And Mr. Williams is calling him a moron? A Politically, I think, yeah, for doing that, yeah. MR. RICHARDS: I think it says, "Fucking moron." MR. STUART: Yeah. THE WITNESS: Is that what it says? BY MR. STUART: Q Thank you. THE WITNESS: "Fucking moron"? MR. RICHARDS: Just so we're clear. THE WITNESS: So there's a difference then between a literal moron and a fucking moron? BY MR. STUART:
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March -- that's dated March 23, 2010. Do you see that? Where are we at here, 2010? Yeah, it's right in the middle of the page where it looks like you wrote an e-mail? "D." "D." You say, "I think Monte is correct, I'm going to take this to court." What are you talking about there? I don't know why I would say, "D," because I don't -- Dustin Block to Tom Tousis. So is "D" Dustin Block? I don't know. I don't remember now. Is it -it's not sent to Dustin Block, so -MR. RICHARDS: Look at the first page, you know, put it more in context. BY MR. STUART: The one underneath. Yeah, I don't -- I remember this happening here on this, but I don't know what that, I think Monte's correct. Are you talking about Monte Osterman? It's got to be. Is "D" Dustin? I don't know.
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Q Do you know what he's talking about anxiety above? A No, I don't know. He's probably -- this is Zak probably talking about Dickert being stressed out or something? I don't know. Q You don't know? A No. Zak was close to Dickert on the campaign. I don't know -- you know, this kind of inside stuff I don't know nothing about it. Q Was he close to Dickert in March of 2010? A You're asking me dates again, man. This is seven years ago, so I don't know. Q Don't know? A No, I don't know. Q You know that they had a falling-out, you just don't know when? A Right, right. I don't remember exactly -- I remember it happening, but I don't remember exactly when it was. (Exhibit No. 1549 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1549. Again, there is an e-mail string between you and Mr. Williams. I want to start in the middle of the page, an e-mail that starts on
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Q Okay. So you don't recall what you were talking about here? A No, I don't. Taking this to court, yeah, I don't know. I wrote to who? Up here it says it's from Dustin to me, that says from Tom Tousis. Q There's a statement, "Let me know if you want a story on his D." Do you see that? A Where is that? Oh, here, okay. Yeah. Yeah, no, I don't -- I don't remember exactly the details of this. Q At the top -A They were just probably pushing me around, I imagine. Q Okay. At the top there's a statement from Zak to you saying, "I talked with him, he said the same thing." A Who is "him"? I don't know. Q Okay. You don't know? That's what I was going to ask. Then, "I talked with Karen." I assume that's Karen Sorenson? A Uh-huh. Q Is that yes? A Probably. Q Then, "She needs to hear from Ryan." Do you
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know Ryan? A Ryan's the architect. Unless Zak talked to Dickert. I don't know. Q So you don't really have any recollections about this e-mail. A No. Q Okay. (Exhibit No. 1550 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q I'll show you another composite exhibit that's marked as Exhibit 1550. I just want to start on the first document at the top, which is ZAK000048 to ZAK000049. Do you see that? A Uh-huh. Q The first two pages? A Yes. Q All right. And this looks like it's an e-mail from Zak to you dated August 18, 2009; is that correct? A Correct. Q And it looks like he's forwarding an e-mail that he got from Mark Goff -A Correct. Q -- of Goff Communications. And then the second pages appears to be an attachment to this
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Q Okay. So is that what you're talking about, getting the postcard that's in Exhibit 228 together? A I don't -- I really don't recall. Q Okay. A Like I said, this is years ago, man. This is 2009 here. Q When Zak said he's heading down to Racine right now and taking my camera for a couple of shots is he referring to taking the picture that's shown in Exhibit 228? A I don't really recall that, so what he's taking pictures of I couldn't tell you. Q No recollection? A No. Q After the first blue page can you look at that document, that's Zak 51, right? A Yup. Q That's another e-mail -- well, there's another string between you and Mr. Williams. At the top it looks like there's an e-mail from you saying, "Zak, go over to the second to the last sentence, I think there is a typo." A Okay. Q Did I read that correctly?
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document; is that correct? A Correct. Q Is this -- Zak refers to a mail program. "Do you have some text put together for the mail program, heading down to Racine right now, taking my camera for a couple shots." Do you see that? A Yes. Q What is the mail program he's referring to? A I don't recall. Q The second document appears to be a postcard or is it the draft of a postcard? A The second document looks like a postcard? Q The draft of a postcard or do you know what this is? A No, I don't recall right now. Q Do you remember on Day 1 you and I talked about some literature that was distributed? A I remember you asking me that, yes, sir. Q Let me just pull that out on 228. The front page of 228, is that the text on the front page, is that consistent, not exactly, but somewhat consistent with the second page of 1550? A Looks close, yes.
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A Sure. Q So are you editing the document that's shown as Zak 49? A I don't know what I'm referring to on that other than -- I don't know. Q No recollection? A No. Q The first e-mail is dated August 13, 2009, right? Well, actually, doesn't this appear to be the same string that we just looked at? A Correct, that is. Q All right. So having looked at it does that refresh your recollection as to whether you were editing the document that's Zak 49? A I -- I really don't remember, man. I couldn't tell you. I'll be honest, which I don't know. Zak did almost everything for me for every event, so... Q That's what it appears in the document, correct? A I couldn't tell you. I don't -- there's nothing attached to the e-mail. There's no picture, so I can't tell you if that's the case or not. Q Well, you're not saying there's any attachment,
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you're just making a comment about a typo. Yeah, that's me saying there's a typo, but a typo about what, don't know, because there's nothing else attached to it. The e-mails even below that don't give you any context for that? It gives me context of what? It says camera shots and Zak's coming to Racine, so... Yeah. But the e-mails below that included the attachment, Exhibit 228, didn't it? The e-mails below that, including an attachment. Where's this attachment? The -- if you turn to the very first page. Okay. Do you agree with me that this is an e-mail from Zak to you and it includes attachment, does it not? Correct. All right. And the second page of -But this e-mail is not attached to this e-mail string. These are different. I understand. Just follow me for a minute. Sure. So there's an attachment to Zak 49. Correct.
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Q And you are editing something, correct? You're talking about a typo in some document. A Yeah, sure. Q Is it reasonable to believe that that's the document that's at Zak 49? A Not necessarily, because they're not attached to each other. I don't -- I can't tell you that, no. Q Okay. A I'm not going to say yes to something that I don't know for sure. Q You don't know what you're referring to here? A No, I don't. It's 2009. Q All right. So then go to the third page then, third document, which is Zak 58, there's a string that Mr. Williams gives to you that involves a Kat Grinker. Do you know who Kat Grinker is? A No. Q If you turn to the second page of that exhibit Ms. Grinker is identified as Kat and Mouse Graphic Design. A Okay. Q So if you look at the e-mails that appears that Ms. Grinker is doing some work, graphic design
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And that's Zak 49, correct? Okay. Yes? That's what you're saying. And you received that, yes? I don't recall. Any reason to believe you didn't, by virtue of these documents? Because this is an official attachment to this e-mail? Yes. Okay. I don't recall. I really don't recall. All right. But any reason to dispute you didn't get it is what I'm asking. I'm just telling you I don't remember it. Yeah, I know that, but do you have any, as we sit here do you have any reason to dispute that you got it? I -- apparently no. Okay. Then turn to the second page, the second document. This is now the same string. Correct. And you are responding to Mr. Williams, correct? Right.
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work, on a postcard or mailer. Okay. Correct? Is that correct? That's what it says here, sure. And on the first page there's again a reference to an attachment, right? On the first page? Of Zak 58. Spangenberg postcard here? Yes. Yes. Okay. And is that Exhibit 228? Spangenberg postcard? I couldn't tell you. I don't know. I don't remember -- I get e-mails all day long. I throw half of them away. I'll represent to you that the document that's attached as Exhibit Zak 59 was the document that was attached to this e-mail. Okay. That's fine. Does that appear to be the same document or substantially the same document as Exhibit 228? The picture is the same, correct. Okay. And is the text the same, if you turn the page? To the first, you already asked me that one, is
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that what you're asking? Q Well, there's a second page where your thumb is, now turn that page. A Okay. Correct. Q Is the text on Zak 59 the same as the text on Exhibit 228? A Scanning over it quickly, yes, it looks similar, yes. Q All right. So you're getting a copy of this document on August 20, 2009, correct? A Okay. Sure. If that's what you're telling me, sure. Q All right. Then if you look at the last document in Exhibit 1550 does this appear to be Mr. Williams sending you an invoice? A That looks like it, sure. Q All right. There's an attachment in the e-mail, correct? A Right. Q And it's Tousis Invoice 14, September 2009. A Right. Q And then you turn the page and there's an invoice dated September 14, 2009, correct? A Correct. Q And it states, "Aldermanic households mailing."
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Yes. I'm sure I did in 2009, sure. But you don't recall what it is for today. No. It's not 2009 anymore. So when it says, "Aldermanic household mailings," what do you think that that means? Aldermanic household mailings, whatever Zak did. That's why Zak was hired to do it. What mailings did you perform? I didn't perform anything. I paid somebody to get a job done to get me a gas station. Fair enough. What mailings did you pay for? I don't -- what I'm telling you is I didn't pay attention to that. You just cut the check? Yeah, I just cut the check. That's what Zak, I hired a consultant to do. Just like the city hires you as an attorney just to do the job, right? Do you recall if you were involved in any mailings like Exhibit 228? Involved how? Any way. No, I don't. Obviously I didn't take any pictures, I didn't write anything, so I don't.
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Do you see that? A Yes. Q All right. Was this invoice in connection with the mailing for Exhibit 228? A I can't tell you that. I don't remember. Q You don't know? A No. Q Do you recall paying any invoices in connection with a mailing in Exhibit 228? A I remember hiring Zak to get a job done. How he did it I don't remember. If I would have been in control of that I would have done it myself. Q Well -A I understand what you're saying. I'm looking right at it. Q This is an invoice for $2,041.10. A Correct. Q Did you pay the invoice? A I'm sure I did if it was invoiced to me. Q And at the time do you think you knew what it was? A At the time? Q Yeah. A In 2009?
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Q Do you recall paying for anything in connection with Exhibit 228? A No, I don't, I really don't. I pay bills every day all day, so you're asking me about a $2,000 invoice. I get that from when my kid goes to the doctor. Q Do you have any idea what the invoice in Exhibit 550 could relate to? A No, I don't. It's 2009. If you had presented this to me a little earlier maybe I would have been a little fresher. What is the year, 2015? Six years ago? Q Mr. Tousis, is it still your testimony that you had no involvement in Exhibit 228? A Did I have any involvement? Q Yes. A Yeah, I don't recall doing any of it. I'm just saying I don't remember. It's six years ago. And if I did what was so bad about it? It says the Tousis family were nice people, want a grocery store, want to build a bank, want to create jobs, and Spangenberg opposes the development, which he did, and the rumors, I don't know nothing about that. Q Well, let's do that --
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A Let's actually call Spangenberg and ask him to help do the thing. It doesn't look like anything bad. Q Let's go back to Exhibit 1550, the document that you did see. A Okay. Q Because it's in your e-mail. A Sure. If I opened it. Q Well, you must have. Are you saying you didn't open this? A I open, not open a lot of e-mails, yeah. Q All right. Any reason to believe you didn't read this when you got the e-mail? A Yeah, a lot of reason not to believe, yeah. Q Okay. Who is the Chicago developers that are being referred to in this document? A Good question. I don't know. You should find out. Q You don't know? A No. Because I'm from Racine, so... Q And you don't know what rumors are being referred to here? A No. Q Did you ask Mr. Williams about that? A Zak was in communication with a lot of people
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Q And do you know, when you say all union, I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with that, you're saying literally all unions everywhere? A All unions everywhere. Q And that's a what, a bug? A They call it a union bug, yeah. Q Okay. What is it? It's not very well, I can't really see it very well in Exhibit 228. When is it in your mind? A It's just says something, I don't know. MR. RICHARDS: I believe that what that means is it was printed by a union printer. MR. STUART: Okay. Oh, I see. MR. RICHARDS: That's what you want on political signs and things like that. BY MR. STUART: Q Do you know what a union bug means? A No. Q Okay. A He would probably know more. He's a Democrat. He would know more about that stuff than I do. MR. RICHARDS: Exactly. And yet you still associate with me. THE WITNESS: I feel bad for you,
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on my behalf, so you should ask Zak these questions. He would probably have the answers for them. I'm just looking to see what you know, okay? No, I don't know. You don't know whether there was any rumors about Chicago developers at this time? Not that I can -- I mean, maybe there was, but I don't remember. It was six years ago. Okay. This postcard's got a union stamp on it, though. I wanted to ask you about that. What do you mean it has a union stamp right there? Right there. Quality Development? The union stamp's below it. It's called a union bug. And for what union? All the unions. It's called a union bug. Do you know who Quality Developments is? No, I have no clue. Do you know what ad, who is located at 4327 West Forest Home Avenue? No.
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Mark. I'm trying to switch you. BY MR. STUART: Q Is the identification of Quality Development supposed to indicate that this document is coming from Quality Developments? A I don't know. Q That's something I would ask Mr. Williams? A Yeah, ask him. I don't know. Don't even know where that is. MR. RICHARDS: What's the address on 228? MR. STUART: 4327 West Forest Home Avenue. (Exhibit No. 1551 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q I'll show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1551. Is this an e-mail from Mr. Williams to you? A Yes. Q And attaching a, an attachment called, "Tousisprojectunionletter.doc." Do you recall Mr. Williams drafting this document? A No, I don't. Q Do you recall receiving this e-mail? A No.
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Q At some point in time did you or Mr. Williams ghost write a letter for a union? A No. I didn't. No. Q In the e-mail to you Mr. Williams is saying, describing how you should make changes to the document and he says, "I do not want anyone looking at the electronic fingerprint and tracing it back to us." Do you see that? A Okay. Sure. Q Do you know what he was referring to there? A No. Q Is he telling you that he doesn't want anyone to know that you guys had ghost written the union letter? A Just said I don't know. I didn't look into this. Q Do you know why he's sending this to you? A No. I never saw it. Q Any reason to believe you didn't get this as an e-mail? A There's probably a pretty good reason to assume that I just didn't care. I had Zak handling it. That's his job, so... Q No reason to believe that you didn't get the e-mail, correct?
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A I -- I didn't, no. Q That would be all Mr. Williams? A I don't know. You'd have to ask Williams. I don't know. Q At some point in time did Mr. Deschler run against Alderman Spangenberg for his seat on the common council? A That's a different Deschler. Q Is it? A There are two different Deschlers. Q So Keith Deschler is not that guy? A No, no. I don't -- I mean, I -- I just know there's two. So I know the one that I know did not run for anything. He was a cable guy, so... Q The Keith Deschler is a cable guy? A The one that I knew, yeah. But there was another one that was involved politically somehow. I never met him. Q Sorry, maybe I'm missing you on this. Is Keith Deschler the cable guy that you knew? A This Keith Deschler, I have no clue who this is towards. All I know is I know -- you asked me if I knew Keith Deschler and I said yes and he's a cable guy, but he's not the guy that's
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A Sure. MR. RICHARDS: Can I take a break? I got to use the men's room again. MR. STUART: Sure. (Short break was taken.) (Exhibit No. 1552 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Show you what's marked as Exhibit 1552. Do you recall seeing the attachments to this letter? A No. Q Is Mr. Williams ghost writing an open records request on Mr. Spangenberg? A You got to ask Mr. Williams. Q Do you know if this letter ultimately gets sent out? A You got to ask Mr. Williams. I don't know. Q The second page in Zak 90 -A This is a letter? Q The second page is, the attachment. Do you know who Keith Deschler is, D-E-S-C-H-L-E-R? A Yeah, he was a neighborhood guy, a guy that lived in the neighborhood that wanted the project to go through. Q Did you have any discussions with Mr. Deschler about sending this letter?
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politically involved. Q All right. There could be another Keith Deschler. A There is another Keith Deschler, I know for a fact, because I used to get them confused. Q Got it. All right. A I would read letters to the editor from both of them and they'd sound different at times, so... Q Do you know who Mr. Williams is referring to in the last page of Exhibit 1552 about the open records, "Brian and Spanky are in the mail"? A I don't know about Brian, but Spanky's got to be Spangenberg, I would imagine. Q So somebody served an open records request on Mr. O'Connell and Mr. Spangenberg? A You're asking again, I don't know. You just asked me if I knew who Spanky and -- that's what everyone calls Spangenberg, Spanky, so Brian, there's millions of Brians. Q So I'd have to ask Mr. Williams what's going on with that. A I would, yeah. Who's that to? Q These are e-mails from Mr. Williams to you. A Yeah, no. But Spanky has definitely got to be Spangenberg.
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(Exhibit No. 1553 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1553. You're aware of the fact that in 2011 Alderman Marcus ran against John Dickert for mayor, correct? A Okay. Q Is that correct? A Yes. Q Okay. And you supported Alderman Marcus? A I didn't support anybody. I wanted Marcus to win, but I didn't -- did not give any money to anybody, no. Q Were you active in any -- in Mr. Marcus's campaign? A I introduced him to a few people and that was about it. Q Anything else? A No. That was it. Q Do you know what Mr. Williams is referring to in this e-mail? A I have no clue. Yeah, I don't know. I really don't know. Q No recollection? A No.
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haven't seen any e-mails from me to anybody here, huh? I'm sure there's a few. (Exhibit No. 1554 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Show you what's marked as Exhibit 1554. Do you recall receiving this e-mail? A No. Q Does this appear to be an e-mail that Mr. Williams forwarded to you about a blog from the Root River Siren? A Okay. Q Actually, you received a notice on the blog, didn't you, from Google alerts to Better Day BP? A Okay. Q Is that correct? A Sure. Q And the search that you were looking for is, "Eric Marcus, mayor," correct? A I highly doubt that, but okay, anyway, so... Q Well, that's what the e-mails says, right? A Okay. Yeah, sure, but I don't know why it would do that. Q You don't recall doing that? A No.
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Q Do you recall in the 2011 election that Mayor Dickert made a request of the other candidates to keep the campaign clean? A No, I really don't. Q You don't recall that? A That's funny, though. I don't recall that. Q And you don't know why Mr. Williams is sending you this e-mail? A No. Q Or what it's in connection with. A No. Q Did that happen often, that he just sent you e-mails out of the blue and you didn't -A He sends a lot of e-mails. Apparently people like sending e-mails, including the people of the City of Racine. I like to go to work, so... Q So that did happen often. A Did what? Q That Mr. Williams would send you e-mails that you had no idea what they were about? A What I'm telling you is that apparently a lot of people like to send e-mails all the time and communicate, and I couldn't care less and I'd rather go home and play with my kids, because I
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Q Getting alerts for Eric Marcus, mayor? A No, I don't. Q But do you recall getting the article of the Root River Siren? A No. Q Okay. What does Mr. Williams say at the top? A "What a cunt." Q Do you know who he's referring to? A No, I don't. Q Is it the Root River Siren? A Hey, man, ask Mr. Williams. I don't know. I don't know, because I don't use this "cunt" word. Q You don't use that language? A No, I don't. I just -- I swear at men, I don't swear at women. Q The Root River Siren seems to be critical or at least reporting that Mr. Maack was being critical of Mr. Marcus. A Big deal. Who cares? Q Didn't mean anything to you? A No. I don't care. I don't care about Eric Marcus. I don't care about Dave Maack or the Root River Siren. I couldn't care less. These are people calling each other crazy and I
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wonder why. (Exhibit No. 1555 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1555. First, who is Mr. Ottelien, Michael Ottelien? A A painter who lives in the neighborhood. Q Do you know why Mr. Williams is talking to Mr. Ottelien on February 5, 2011? A No. Mike's a friend of mine, that's it. Q Is this in connection with the campaign, the mayoral campaign? A These are questions for Zak, man. I don't know. This a copy that I'm sent an e-mail over here. Where am I talking here? Q Well, you say, "Looks good. Take a look at Racine Uncovered." A That's great. I said that millions of times. "Take a look at Racine Uncovered," could be an article about a dog. I don't know. What does that mean? Q Do you recall what it was that looked good? A No, I don't. Q The, "Radio ad final," do you know what that is? A No. "Final."
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have no clue -- I don't even remember jobsforracine.com. I have no clue. You have any reason why -- so you have no recollection as to why Mr. Williams was working with Mr. Ottelien at this time? No. Mike was just -- he was going door to door for us and he was my friend. Or why you were getting involved in this e-mail string? No. I don't remember. Obviously you could tell if I was so in charge and there was a big operation going on and they had a website on my behalf why would I ask the guy who -- what we are? Why would I know if I knew so much? All right. Okay. So I'm in charge of this elaborate scheme but I'm going to ask the guy because I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm in charge of all these strings at the same time. You weren't involved in a webpage -Obviously. I don't even know who it was. So why would I ask him, why would I ask the guy in charge of my political stuff who it is? And jobsforracine.com, I thought that was John Dickert's website, if I am not mistaken, I
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Q That wasn't in connection with the mayoral election? A I don't know. I don't remember. Q Do you remember asking him about -- well, do you remember a question about jobsforracine.com? Do you know what that is? A Jobsforracine.com, I have no clue, no. MR. RICHARDS: It's posed in a question. BY MR. STUART: Q Yeah. "Who is jobsforracine.com," and there is an answer above, right? A Answer what? Q You asked, "Who is jobsforracine.com?" A Okay. Yeah. Q And there's an answer above. Mr. Williams says, "Us"? A No. Why would it be above? Q If you just follow the e-mail string. A Yeah. Q All right. You on 2/6 ask, "Who is jobsforracine.com," correct? A Okay. All right. Q Is Mr. Williams answering you about that? A I -- I don't know. I really don't know. I
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thought. I thought that was his campaign. But maybe I'm wrong. Apparently they don't know anything either. Q Just hang on for a second. (Exhibit No. 1556 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Show you what's marked as Exhibit 1556. This is an e-mail from Zak to you dated February 7, 2011 and it's attaching a MarcusWalkCard.pdf. Do you see that? A Okay. Q Is that in connection with the election? A How do I know? Q You don't have any recollection. A No, I don't have any recollection. You keep showing me e-mails from Zak to me. Q Do you know why Zak is attaching the document that's called Marcus Walk Card to you? A No, I don't. Q Do you know what a walk card is? A No, I don't have no clue. Q So these e-mails are just coming out of the blue from Mr. Williams? A Apparently. What do I -- you don't see Tom Tousis sending a walk card, this, that.
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Where's all my stuff? Q You had no discussions with Mr. Williams at this time about the Marcus campaign? A Maybe we did, but I mean, about how I liked Eric Marcus, but I didn't support Eric Marcus in the end. Q You weren't reviewing his walk cards? A No. Maybe Zak was just sending me stuff just to be, to show me, I don't know. I have no clue. I never sat down and none of that stuff. I introduced him to a couple people and that was it. Q Who did you introduce him to? A Zak, I mean, that's -- that's it. Q You just introduced him to Zak, that's it? A Yeah. Zak was the guy that I thought was, a political guy, that's why I hired him, so why wouldn't somebody else use him? Q Did Zak work on his campaign? A I have no -- you'd have to ask Zak. I don't know what's going on in Zak's mind. (Exhibit No. 1557 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Show you what's marked as Exhibit 1557. Do you have any idea what Mr. Williams is talking
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(Exhibit No. 1558 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Show you what's marked as Exhibit 1558. Who is Tom Reiherzer? A He was, I don't know if he still is, the Tri-County contractors union guy. He's the head of the building trades, not the head of the building trades, but he's the head liaison. Q So is he -- does he speak for the union trades? A He can, I guess, yeah. I don't know. Q Is he indicating that the union is supporting the business -- the building alliance and supporting Mr. Marcus in the campaign? A Are you telling me in this e-mail is that what he says? Q Yes. A This is from Tom Reiherzer to who? Okay. Yeah. Apparently, yeah. Q And you got that e-mail? A Did I get that e-mail? Q Yes. A I didn't get a copy of the e-mail from Tom. I got a copy from Zak, right? Q No. Looks like it's from you to Zak on -A Where?
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about here? A You mean talk to your boys? Q Yeah. A My son's name's Dino and the other son's name's Nico. I don't know. Q You affiliate as a Republican, correct? A Not all the time. Q Typically? You gave to Mr. Walker's campaign, right? A Yeah, so what, because he won, so... Q Yes? A Yeah, sure. Gave to Bob Turner's campaign too. Q And was there some sort of an article below that was complimentary of Mr. Dickert? A About what? Q The Governor Walker announces mayor -A I don't know. I didn't read the article, so I don't know. You've got to show me the article. Q So you have no idea what Mr. Williams is talking about. A No, I have no idea. Q Or why he's sending this to you. A Correct, don't have a clue. You think I'm going to call Walker up and tell him to blow Racine up or what?
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-- March 4, 2011. From Better Day BP. And then Mr. Williams replies, "I got it." Okay. Do you know why you're sending this to Mr. Williams? No. Maybe somebody wanted me to send it to him. I don't know. Are you sending it to him to indicate that the unions are supporting Mr. Marcus? I don't know. They didn't support Marcus, so what do you -- what's this e-mail going to do? What did they do for Marcus? Did they endorse him? No, they didn't. So what did they support? Your information, you got to check it a little better. Why are you sending this to Mr. Williams? Why am I sending it to what? Why are you sending the e-mail from Mr. Reiherzer to Mr. Williams? I don't know. What is the date on it? 2011? Yes. I don't know. Maybe someone told me to send it to him, somebody who didn't have his e-mail address and called me up and asked me to
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forward it to him. Q You have no recollection, is that what you're saying? A No, I don't have any recollection, no. Does it matter? I mean, they didn't support him, so what's in there? There's nothing there, nothing pertinent at all. Q Move to strike the last answer. (Exhibit No. 1559 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1559. If you start at the bottom looks like there's an e-mail from Mr. Williams to you dated March 23, 2011. Do you see that? A Okay. Q Do you see that? A Sure. Q Okay. And it appears to be a report on an event that Mr. Dickert had the following night? A Sure. Q Is that what you're reading? A Okay. Yeah. That's what I'm reading, yeah. Q Okay. And what's your response? A "Fuck him and Bozman." Q Yeah. Who is "him" in that?
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Q You just drive down the road and just -A I do that all the time, yeah. I'm goofy like that. I don't know who that is. Q Your testimony is you don't know who that is. A Yeah, I don't. Q And that you go down the road and you just say -A Yeah, it can happen, yeah. Q -- that obscenity for no reason. A Yeah, sometimes. I'm going to church, though. I'm working on it. Q Who is Bozman? A Bozman? Q Yeah. A I think he's the mayor of Kenosha. Q Do you not like Mr. Bozman? A No. I don't remember saying that. I thought Bozman was a very nice guy, that's why I'm a little confused, because I would never say nothing about Bozman like that. Q Mr. Williams says, "I would like to. As soon as my Chicago stuff is done I want to meet with Jesse." Who is Jesse? A Don't know. Q You don't know?
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A I don't remember. It's 2011. I don't remember. Q Well, if you look at the context below -A I said that a million times. I don't know. It's not Boyd. Q Is it Dickert? A I don't know. Q Well, you said, "Boyd called me last night. Dickert had 50 people at his event in Kenosha and there was some of the local heavy hitters there." Do you see that? A Yes, yeah. Q At the end, "Dickert was apparently very giddy all night and thinks he is going to beat Marcus three to one." Do you see that? A Yeah. So what? Q So does that indicate to you that you're saying, "Fuck Dickert"? A No. Q And who is the "him"? A I don't know. I say that a million times. I say that three, four times a day sometimes. Q You just say that off the cuff. A Yeah, I do. I drive down the road, I tell people all the time.
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A No, I don't know who Jesse is, no. I mean, I know a lot of Jesses, but I don't know which one he's referring to. Q Do you know what the meeting was supposed to be about? A No. Q So again, you're just getting e-mails from Mr. Williams that you have no context -A I probably remembered at the time because I probably was -- but, you know, you're talking about years later. I don't remember exactly what was going on before or after that. Q No recollection of any of this, huh? A No, no. Dickert being giddy, I mean, he was giddy all the time, so there was nothing you could do about that. (Exhibit No. 1560 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1560. Is this an e-mail from Mr. Williams to you dated March 22, 2011? A Yeah. Q Does this appear to be instructions for Mr. Williams as to getting Mr. Dickert's campaign finance reports?
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A Looks like it, sure. Q All right. 2011 did you ask, did you file an open records request for the reports? A Never did. Q Do you know why Mr. Williams is saying this to you? A No. Q No recollection at all. A No. Q You have no idea why he's -A I never did it, so why would I have any clue what it's about? No. Q You don't have any idea what this is about? A No. Q Well, does it appear to be about -A I know what it's about, but it's not -- I didn't do it, didn't do anything, so what would -- how would I know anything about this? Q Why was Mr. Williams sending this to you? A Obviously, you just, you saw a stack of e-mails, you've been asking me the same question over and over again. I don't know. You never see me doing any of that stuff, so I don't know. Q Why would he -- you had no discussions with
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Q I'll represent to you that Exhibit 1562 is the blog post that's shown in Exhibit 1561. A A blog post. Q Yes. Or the link that's shown in 1561. Do you see the link in 1561? A Is it a blog post or is it an article? Q Whatever you want to call it. It's what pops up if you click on the link. A Okay. Q All right. A Okay. Q So do you recall getting this from Mr. Williams? A No. Q Do you know why he's sending you a report about an assessment challenge? A No. Q Then he says, "Don't forget to challenge that today." Do you know what he's talking about? A No, because I obviously didn't challenge anything. No. Q Did you ever file a property assessment challenge for Gus's, Better Day BP? A Never did. Q Did you ever talk to him about that?
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Mr. Williams about filing an open records -A No. Q -- request on Dickert's campaign -A Not that I recall. It's -- I mean, you're talking about five, six years ago. How do I remember? 10:48 in the morning. Q And you never did it? You never filed an open records request? A Apparently I -- I didn't, but that's a -that's a -- that would get recorded somewhere, right? Q And you would have no idea why he would ask you. A No, I have no idea why he would ask me, no. Q Another e-mail just out of the blue. A Could be, yeah. Zak must have a problem with e-mails. He's addicted to them. (Exhibit No. 1561 marked for identification.) (A discussion held off the record.) BY MR. STUART: Q Show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1561. A Okay. Q And for reference... (Exhibit No. 1562 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART:
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A No. Q He then says, "We want to do it prior to your meeting with Dickert." What meeting is he talking about? A That's a good question. I don't know. I have no clue. Q You didn't have a meeting with Dickert sometime? A I'm sure I had a meeting with Dickert sometime, but I don't remember what for or what time it was or what day it was, what this has got to do with property assessment challenge. Q Do you know why you were having discussions with Mr. Williams -A I wasn't having discussions. I got an e-mail. You didn't see anything that I said on there. There's nothing on there. There's a copy of a frickin' article and an e-mail to me and there's no discussion. Q Well, Mr. Williams knows about a meeting with -A Zak -- Zak is talking about a meeting. MR. SANDERS: Is this part of the exhibit? MR. STUART: No, it's a different
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exhibit. 1562. MR. SANDERS: Thanks. THE WITNESS: So no, I don't know. BY MR. STUART: So you have no idea how Mr. Williams knows about a meeting with you and Mr. Dickert or what it's about. It's 2011. Maybe he was standing right there when John Dickert called. I don't remember. I never challenged anybody on taxes, so what's -where this is going I don't know. Again, you have no idea what he's talking about. No. I'm very happy with what I pay in taxes in Racine. I think it's great. Is there something that happened to your memory in the last three to four years or not? I had spine surgery. When was that? Year and a half ago. Did that impact your memory? It impacted everything. Anything else? No, not that I can remember. Have you taken any prescription drugs in the
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A I'm sure I did, like everybody did, sure. Q What did you guys talk about? A I don't remember specific, no. Just one guy getting fired, that's it. Q Anything else? A No, not that I recall. Nice guy. THE WITNESS: Nice guy. (Exhibit No. 1563 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Is this an e-mail from Zak Williams to you dated February 13, 2011? A Sure. Q The re line is, "Dickert slander"? A Where does it say that? Q It's at the top. A Okay. Yes. Q There's no re lines and where it normally is, it's at the top? A Sure. Q "Dickert slander," correct? A Yup. Q And then it appears as if Mr. Williams is identifying the ways in which he believes Mr. Dickert slandered Mr. Bielefeldt; is that correct?
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last five years? Sure. All kinds of stuff. Anything that would impact your memory? Sure. Like what? Nothing that would impact my memory. I'm fine. I don't remember because it's six years ago. Are you being facetious in answering my questions? Yeah, I'm being facetious. It's six years. Would you remember all your e-mails if I asked you all those questions? Especially when I didn't do it. If I did something I can understand, I can maybe remember challenging, but I didn't challenge anybody's property taxes. Have you taken any prescription drugs in the past -No, I haven't. -- five years? Yes, I have. Anything that would impact your memory? No. At some point in time did you have discussions with Mr. Williams about the Bielefeldt case?
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Sure. Bill is Bill Bielefeldt? Apparently. Any reason to believe it's not? Where does it say Bielefeldt? Does it say Bielefeldt on there? I'm asking you. Well, then I can't tell you that. No, I don't. You don't know what he's talking about. No. I don't know. I mean, "Dickert was not acting as mayor. Bill is not a public figure." So you have no idea who he's referring to when he says, "Bill is not a public figure"? No, I don't know, no. At some point in time -- well, did you have any involvement in Mr. Bielefeldt filing the lawsuit against Mr. Dickert? No. I think he asked me for an attorney and I referred him to an attorney. That was about it. So you talked to Mr. Bielefeldt? I talked to him because he used to come, all the city guys had lunch in my restaurant. So the answer to me question is yes, you talked to Mr. Bielefeldt.
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A Sure, yup. He was a nice guy. Q Did you talk to him about getting an attorney? A I told him who I would use. I said it was a friend of mine I'd refer him to. Q Any other discussions about his potential claim against Mr. Dickert? A Not really, no. Q Well, any other thing -A No. Q -- you talked about? A I don't remember, no. Q When did you have this discussion? A Don't know. This was on my birthday, so two days after my birthday, so I don't think it would have been too much. Q Did you have any other discussions with Mr. Bielefeldt? A No, not that I can recall. Q Do you have any idea why Mr. Williams would be sending you this e-mail? A Don't know, no. Q Why he'd be talking about textbook slander against Mr. Dickert? A No, I don't. You've got to ask Zak these questions. These are questions for Zak.
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Q And Mr. Williams is commenting to you as the affirmative defense May 31 that he's acting as a mayor? Do you see that? A Okay. Q So are you having a dialog about the Bielefeldt case? A Obviously not, because where's, I mean... Q But you respond, don't you? A That's the only thing they got, right? But I don't know. Q So that's what your response is? A I don't even know what that means, so... Q That's your response, right? A That's in my response, right. Q Does that indicate to you that you looked at the affirmative defense and you're talking about the Bielefeldt case? A I can't tell you that. I don't remember. Q So you have no idea what you're saying when you say, "That's the only thing that they got." A No. It's 2011. Q So you have no recollections of what occurred in 2010 or 2011? A No. I mean, I'm sure I do. I remember my kids' birthday party and stuff like that,
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Q Well, you received these e-mails, sir. A Yeah, I know, but I obviously didn't respond to the, so maybe I don't respond to this crazy stuff. I don't know. Q So again, all of these e-mails -- was it typical for Mr. Williams to just send you e-mails out of the blue? A Obviously. You see a lot of e-mails without Tom Tousis writing him back, right? Q Did you have any discussions with Mr. Williams about the Bielefeldt case? A No, I said no already, not that I can recall. (Exhibit No. 1564 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1564. I'll represent to you that if you click on the link on the June 4, 2011 e-mail from Zak to you that that takes you to the Bielefeldt case on the Circuit Court Access System. A Giving me the public record? Q Yes. A The original? Sure. That everybody can look at? Q Right. A Okay.
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vacation. I just remember going to work every day. So do you deny having discussions with Mr. Williams if this -I said I don't remember having a conversation with Mr. Williams. It's six years ago, so you want me to tell you what we talked about? I don't know. Do you know why you'd be having these discussions? No, I don't, because we started having lunch and start talking about stuff. Did you have any interest in the outcome of the Bielefeldt case? No, not at all. You don't like Mr. Dickert, do you. What's that? You don't like John Dickert, do you. Who said I don't like John -You like John Dickert? I didn't dislike him. You didn't dislike him. Did you blame him for the West Racine project? Sure. The West Racine project?
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A Sure. Q And that made you angry, didn't it. (Reporter clarification.) THE WITNESS: Yeah, you should slow down. She doesn't understand. BY MR. STUART: Q That made you angry, didn't it. A I don't know about angry, because I don't get angry, because if I was angry -Q Okay. A -- everybody would know I was angry. Q Did you want to see Mr. Dickert fail? A I don't have to help John Dickert fail. Q Do you think he's going to do it all by himself? A John makes 65 grand at 52 years old. What do you think he's doing? He's doing good? Q So you don't respect him. A Why would I respect John Dickert? Q You don't respect him? A Why would anybody respect John Dickert? How'd he do in the last election against a nobody? He didn't do very good. It's a consensus. Q So I'm taking it from your answers you don't think very much of Mr. Dickert.
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Mr. Williams was unhappy? Yeah. About what? You got to ask him. I don't know. He was unhappy at the time. At what time? I don't remember. I just remember certain times that he wasn't happy. Yeah. At what times? I don't know. When you're friends with somebody you don't record everything that you guys talk about and do on a calendar. What year range are we talking about? I don't know. From 2000 to now, how about that? Is that a good enough memory? That's my year range. He doesn't like him today, correct? You got to ask Zak. You don't know? No. Maybe they worked something out. Maybe he's going to work on his campaign again. I don't know. Why are you and Zak looking at Mick Wynhoff's Facebook page? No, that's Zak looking at it. Zak sent me
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A Why would I think a lot about Mr. Dickert? What did he get? Did he create a lot of jobs in Racine? Everybody's swarming here? Everybody paying taxes? All these projects working? What's he got? Nothing. (Exhibit No. 1565 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Mr. Williams doesn't like Mr. Dickert either, does he. A Got to ask him that. I don't know. Q You don't know? A Maybe they made friends again. I don't know. Q Did you ever have discussions with Mr. Williams about that? A I saw him being mad, but I don't know if he dislikes him. Q Do you know what opinion Mr. Williams holds of Mr. Dickert? A No. You got to ask Zak that. I don't know. Q You never had any discussions about that. A I just saw him act a certain way, but I don't know if he's still mad or if they're friends again. I don't know. Q How did you see him act? A Unhappy.
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this, right? Q Yeah. A So what do you mean I was looking at? How did I look at it? Q Why did he send it to you? A Ask Zak. Q You have no idea. A No. Mick Wynhoff is a friend of mine, actually, so I like Mick. I do business with Mick. Q Were you offended when you got this or not? A I didn't even remember looking at it, so it's the first time I've seen it. Q When Zak says, "We are devious," what's he referring to? A You got to ask Zak, man. He said it, I didn't say it, so why are you asking me? Q So you have no understanding. A No, because I like Mick. Mick designs my website work. I like Mick. Q So were you offended then that Mr. Williams was looking at his Facebook page? A Why would I be offended if he's looking at his Facebook page? Why do you have a Facebook page if you don't want nobody to look at it? Why
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would that be so wrong? Q Saying, "We are devious"? A How the fuck do I know what he means by devious? I don't know. Mick is a friend of mine. I like Mick. I continue to do business with Mick. (Exhibit No. 1566 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Do you know if Mr. Williams ghost wrote any comments on Mick -A Why are you wasting my time asking me if I know if Zak did anything? Okay. I don't know what Zak had for dinner. I don't know. I keep telling you that. Zak is a big boy. I hired the guy to work for me. Mark's my attorney. Mark, what did you have for dinner last night? I don't frickin' know. I hire the guy, he's my attorney, same way I hired Zak. I don't know what Mark does either. Q Does Mark send you Facebook posts? A All the time, yeah, we do it all the time. Q Does Mark send you Facebook posts of Mr. Wynhoff's -A No, exactly. So where is this from me? Q I'm asking you what the context --
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MR. RICHARDS: Counsel, we're running out of time. Do you got anything important to do? THE WITNESS: Yeah. Jesus Christ. This is bullshit. About Nicholson, who's a friend of mine, right? MR. RICHARDS: You got about 20 more minutes. THE WITNESS: Mick is a friend of mine. I like Mick. Mike's the only one in that crew that's got a brain in his head. BY MR. STUART: Q What crew? A In Dickert's crew. Q Mick was on Dickert's campaign staff. A Well, I don't know if he is, but he's friends with Dickert, so I know he's friends with Dickert, so that never stopped me from being friends with Mick, because Mick is normal, Mick's fine. He's not evil. He's a good guy. He'll help you out when he can. I would never do nothing to hurt Mick. (A discussion held off the record.) (Exhibit No. 1567 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART:
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A So what if Zak sends me an e-mail. You didn't see me responding to it. I don't know. I don't do none of that. I don't even have a Facebook. Q 1566. A What about it? Q Is that an e-mail to you about Mick Wynhoff's Facebook page? A Where is this? Okay. What about it? Q Why is Mr. Williams -- is Williams sending -A Ask Zak. I don't know. Q So it's the second time and you have no idea. A Yeah, second time and I don't know. It could be 500 times. I don't know. Q Did you ask him? A I also get -- I also -- I also get an e-mail from my friend seven times a day about anti-Obama stuff and I never open it, I can throw it right in the garbage can, okay? Q So is that what you think these are? A What? Q Useless e-mails that you're getting from Zak? A Doesn't say they were useless, but I don't know what the hell, what he's sending. Maybe at the time I knew, but Mick is a friend of mine.
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Q I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1567. At some point in time did you have discussions with Mr. Williams about an ethics complaint that was filed against Mr. Dickert? A Don't remember. Q No recollection? A No. Q Were you aware that there was an ethics complaint filed against Mr. Dickert? A No, not that I can recall, no. Q Do you recall getting this e-mail? A No. Q Do you have any idea why Mr. Williams is sending it to you? A No, I don't. I really don't. Q No discussions with him at all, huh? A No. I don't remember. You're talking about -you keep going back years and years here. I don't care about Dickert. I don't retain any information about Dickert in my brain. Q Mr. Tousis, I understand your testimony is that you don't care about Mr. Dickert -A Yeah. I don't -- what I'm saying is that's how much I remember.
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Q Let me finish my question. A Okay. There is nothing to remember about John Dickert. You never see a response from any of these e-mails from me. This is his Facebook. I don't care. Q You have to let me finish my question, especially if your counsel is going to hold me to a time limit. You can testify that you don't pay attention to Mr. Dickert, you have no interest in him, and yet you're getting e-mail after e-mail after e-mail about John Dickert. A Yeah. Do you see me sending e-mail after e-mail? Am I sending them out? Do you see me sending them out? I don't think so, do you. Q So you have no idea why you're getting this e-mail that's Exhibit 1567? A No, I don't. Ethics violation, John Dickert, boom, I get it. It surprises me so much. I'm shocked. (Exhibit No. 1568 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1568. This is another composite exhibit. Take a look at the very first page, ZAK417. First of all,
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Not sure if they have their full act together, but I'm going to be able to figure out by helping them on this piece." Do you see that? Yeah. What's he talking about? Good question. You should ask him. That's why it's got his name at the bottom. So no recollection. Yup. At some point in time do you remember being involved in a recall effort for Mr. Kaplan? Nope, because I like Jim Kaplan. Okay. So let's turn to the last page of Exhibit 419. There's a reference to the recall guys and not always being grounded in reality. Do you see that? Okay. Yeah. So what? So is he talking about the recall for James Kaplan? I have no clue, because I like Jim Kaplan. I don't even want the guy recalled. Who was recalling, I don't even remember who was recalling, but I like Jim Kaplan. He's always supported me. Why would I want him recalled? So you have no idea why you're getting these
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who is the CC on this, the mapidgeon@gmail.com? Good question. You don't know? I have no clue. Okay. Mr. Williams states to you, "The Racine boys are going to play by our timetable. They understand why and are pulling a couple things back." Do you see that? Yeah. What's he referring to there? Good question. No idea? You didn't have a timetable? Timetable for what? That's why I'm asking you. Yeah, timetable for what? What I was going to do on that afternoon on June 10 at the beach or what? I don't know. Who are the Racine boys? Good question. Who is the Racine boys? I'm one of the Racine boys. I went to Horlick. So you have no idea what he's talking about. No, I don't. Okay. Let's turn the page to Zak 418. This is an e-mail dated June 14, 2013. It says, "Putting together a walk piece for Racine guys.
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e-mails. A Correct. 19th time. As a matter of fact, I called Jim and congratulated him when he didn't lose. Q The recall election? A Correct. (Exhibit No. 1569 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1569. Who's Santo? A Santo Galati? Q Do you know why Mr. Williams is talking to Galati on November 4, 2013? A Santo was his landlord. Q He lived in the building -A He lived in a building with Santo Galati, yeah. Q Do you know what they were talking about on this date? A Good question. I don't know. I think he called me because Santo worked for me at one time so he knew I had his number. I don't know. Q So you have no idea what the context of this e-mail is. A Obviously not, no, nor do I care.
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Q Or why Mr. Williams would think it was necessary to tell you he talked to Santo? A Yeah, I don't know. Q And I think your testimony from Day 1 is that you never spoke to Mr. Galati about this case; is that right? A No, I said I never talked about this case. I talked to Santo Galati. Q Yeah. A I never talked to him about this case. Q My question was about this case. A Right. I never talked to him about this case. (Exhibit No. 1570 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1570. Do you remember having discussions with Mr. Williams about Hartland Solutions Group? A No. Don't even have a clue who the hell Hartland Solutions Group is. Q It says, "Dickert Hartland Solutions." Do you remember hearing that Dickert worked for that group for a while? A I told you I don't care about John Dickert, so no, I don't. Q Okay. Why do you respond on February 9, 2010,
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position, but that's seven hours for all three counsel, number one, but I understand your position, but I'm letting you know my position. MR. RICHARDS: If we were plowing new ground I'd feel great about this and I'd -MR. STUART: These e-mails are brand new, by the way, we are plowing new ground. We got these e-mails about two weeks ago. THE WITNESS: You guys had it before that. MR. STUART: So this is all new stuff that we wouldn't even have had the first day, but -- and if you would answer my questions as opposed to giving me narratives and sarcastic and facetious comments -THE WITNESS: Why don't you give me e-mails that I sent out? MR. RICHARDS: I'm sensing more anger than sarcasm. THE WITNESS: Show me something I wrote. BY MR. STUART: Q Do you have any idea -- I did just show you something you wrote. A What did I say? I said, "Conflict of interest,
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"Conflict of interest"? A I don't know. You probably should have asked me then. I don't know. Q So you have no recollection? A No. Nor do I care. So -- so, "Conflict of interest, question mark"? What does that do, put me in jail? Q Mr. Tousis -A Now, listen to me, this is all bullshit and you know it, okay? Is our time up yet? MR. RICHARDS: In 13 minutes. THE WITNESS: Obviously I gave you the answer. I don't know and I don't care. I don't know. BY MR. STUART: Q First of all -A We're all done. MR. STUART: Mark, I understand your position, but I'm going to take the position that because of the way he's answering my questions I have more time. I understand your -MR. RICHARDS: We're way over seven hours. MR. STUART: I understand your
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question mark." Why did you write that? Well, I don't know. You have no recollection. No, I don't. And that was about a year ago? Yeah. I don't remember, yeah. No idea. No. MR. RICHARDS: 18 months. THE WITNESS: Yeah. That was actually right before my surgery. BY MR. STUART: Do you have any idea why Mr. Williams is forwarding you these e-mail about Hartland Solutions? You asked me again, all those questions, I don't know why Zak sent it to me. Zak wants to keep me in the loop. I don't know. Keep you in the loop about what? I don't know. Who knows. About John Dickert? Who knows. I don't know. The last one was about Kaplan, so it wasn't about John Dickert, but anyway, whatever.
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Q Why are you having discussions with Mr. Williams about this lawsuit? A Who am I having discussions with about this lawsuit, besides you and Mark Richards? Zak lives in Duluth. I don't even care about this lawsuit. Why don't you guys get it done. I wouldn't get it done if I was you either, I had a taxpayer paying my bill. Q Move to strike that last answer. A Yeah, of course. Q There was no question pending. (Exhibit No. 1571 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1571. I'll represent to you these are all e-mails where Mr. Tousis is giving you updates about this lawsuit. MR. RICHARDS: Mr. Williams, Counsel? MR. STUART: Yes. MR. RICHARDS: You said Mr. Tousis. MR. STUART: Oh, sorry. If I said that I misspoke. I meant Mr. Williams. Q Mr. Williams is sending you updates about this lawsuit. A That's great. Didn't open any of them.
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A Like news, like guys talk about, have coffee in the morning, I read the newspaper and talk about stuff. Q Keep him in the loop about the lawsuit, right? A No. I didn't even read it, to be honest with you. Q So you sent him updates on news issues in the city of Racine? A Actually, because I don't even want the -yeah, of course. Q You do? A I live in the city of Racine, sure. Q So you send him daily updates. A Oh, not daily updates, but -Q Why are you sending him an e-mail about the lawsuit? A Because I'm hoping the tavern league gets, you know, doesn't have anything to do with it. I hope they get off scot-free. Q Why does Mr. Williams care about that? A He doesn't. This is something I care about. Just like all the shit he cares about he sends to me and all the shit I care about I send to him, which as you can see is a lot. It's one e-mail.
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Q No interest? A Nope. Q Okay. Do you know how -- looking at the last page, who's Dan Taivalkoski? A He runs the tavern league. He's one of the guys that runs the tavern league. Q Do you know him? A Yeah, vaguely. Q Okay. This is an e-mail from you to Zak Williams dated July 30, 2014, right? A Yeah. Q Yes? A Yes. Q And you're saying, you're forwarding him an e-mail from Dan Taivalkoski? A Okay. Sure. Q How did you get the e-mail from Mr. Taivalkoski? A I'm a tavern league member. Q Okay. Why did you send this e-mail to Mr. Williams? A To see -- you know, keep him in the loop on that. Just a couple guys having a conversation. Q Keep in the loop about what?
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Q So you're on the distribution list for the tavern league? A Yup. I'm a tavern league member for many, maybe years. Q Because of Gus's? A What's that? Q Because of Gus's? A Yeah, because we've had restaurants for many years. (Exhibit No. 1572 marked for identification.) BY MR. STUART: Q Show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1572. You're not on this e-mail string, but you're referenced in it, so I just want to ask you whether or not you did what was said in the e-mail. In the middle of the second paragraph this is an e-mail from Zak Williams to Janice Hand. Now, were you involved -- Strike that. You're aware that Ms. Hand ran against Mr. Dickert in the 2015 election, correct? A Correct. Q This last year? A Yup. Q Did you participate in her campaign? A Nope.
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Did you give her any money? Nope. Do you know if Zak did? You got to ask Zak. You don't know if he participated? No. I never met with Janice. I haven't seen Janice in 30 years, 25 years. Did you support her? No. I don't live in the city of Racine. You don't live in the city of Racine anymore? I never did live in the city of Racine. Where -- you never lived in the city of Racine. I never lived in the city of Racine. You just had the business here. Correct. Zak states that he reached out to you last night and he is putting together a list of potential business people who are unhappy with Dickert and should want to give. Did you ever do that? No. You don't recall him asking you that? Do I recall -- no, I don't recall him asking me that, but I didn't do it. He did ask you to do it?
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they go pull your file and they want to see if there's a record of you doing this and doing that, in which I have none. How do you know that Mr. Maack was doing this? Somebody told me. I don't remember who it was. You have no personal knowledge of it? I do. I forgot who told me it was. But you didn't personally see Mr. Maack looking through your files, correct? No, because I don't work at the City of Racine so I wouldn't have that -- we could do an open records request and get the surveillance camera footage or something like that, maybe him looking at the stuff, maybe we could do that if you want to find out. Mr. Tousis, as you sit here today you have no facts that, other than of your one discussion -Right. -- with somebody you can't remember -Just like you don't have any facts of me ever working -You have to let me finish my question. Okay. I thought you were done. Okay. Please let me finish my question.
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A I says I don't recall him asking him -- asking me to do that, but I never did it anyway. Q Okay. You know you never did it. A Both. I never did it. Q Okay. You stated on Day 1 of your testimony that you thought that David Maack was, your quote, "harassing." A Correct. Q In connection with the 2100 Douglas Avenue -A Correct. Q -- property, right? A Yup. Q And my recollection is that you testified that the harassing was looking into your licensing? A Correct. Q Any other ways? A Isn't that enough? Q What do you mean by looking into your licensing? A Trying to take my license from me, like they do other people, you know, like the black guys that you're talking about? Q How did Mr. Maack try to take your license away from you? A They go around and look for any violations,
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A Sure. Q As we sit here today you have no facts that Mr. Maack was in any way looking at your licensing other than your discussion with somebody that you can't remember, correct? A Actually, Mike Shields, Alderman Mike Shields. Q And when did you talk to Mr. Shields about this? A Don't remember. It was after Maack was doing it, so it's been a while. Maack hasn't been around for a while. Q Was it one discussion with Mr. Shields? A One or two, three, maybe. I don't know. I don't remember. Q Can't recall? A Nope. Q What was said? A Got to ask Mike. Q What was said? A That the -- that the -- Maack wanted to take my liquor license away. Q Is that it? A On behalf of your buddy Dickert. Q Was that all Mr. Shields said or not? A I don't recall. He might have said how is my
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mom doing, how is my dad doing. In connection with Mr. Maack is that all that Shields said? Yeah, as far as I can remember. That he wanted to take your license away. Yeah. All right. You also indicated that Mr. Helding was looking into your license; is that correct? Correct. What's the basis for that statement? Mike Shields. Same discussion? Different discussions. What did Mr. Shields say about Mr. Helding? Same thing. That he wanted to take your license away? Yeah. By that we're talking about the license for Gus's and Better Day BP? Correct. Is that the sole basis for your conclusion that Mr. Helding was trying to take your license away? Yeah. That one discussion with Mr. Shields?
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STATE OF WISCONSIN ) ) ss. COUNTY OF MILWAUKEE ) I, ANNICK M. JAQUET, RMR, CRR, Notary Public in and for the State of Wisconsin, do hereby certify that the preceding deposition was recorded by me and reduced to writing under my personal direction. I further certify that said deposition was taken at RACINE CITY HALL, Racine, Wisconsin, on the 28th day of July, 2015, commencing at 9:37 a.m. and concluding at 1:10 p.m. I further certify that I am not a relative or employee or attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor a relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, or financially interested directly or indirectly in this action. In witness whereof, I have hereunto set my hand at Milwaukee, Wisconsin, this 10th day of August, 2015. <%Signature%> ANNICK M. JAQUET, RMR, CRR Notary Public in and for the State of Wisconsin My commission expires September 29, 2017.
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A Sure. Q You also indicated that Mayor Dickert wanted to take your license away? Do you recall that testimony? A Correct. Q How do you know that? A Because he asked for a copy of the file too. Q Anything else? A Mike Shields would maybe know more. Q I'm not asking for what Mike Shields might or might not know. A I'm just going by what he told me. Q So again, Mr. Shields told you Mayor Dickert wanted to take your license away? A Yup. Q When was this? A Don't recall. Probably around the time he was doing it. Q Okay. I think I'm done. (A discussion held off the record.) MR. SANDERS: For the record I have no further questions. (Proceedings concluded at 1:10 p.m.)
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Chicago 399:15 400:7 421:22 choice 338:2 346:5,8 Christ 441:4 church 421:10 Circuit 432:19 Citgo 366:23,24 367:2 citizen 368:16 citizens 328:10 city 259:17 261:5,21 270:10 271:2 272:9 275:10,16 276:24 277:1 277:2,18 279:15 280:8 280:18,19 281:6,14 284:17 285:14,21 289:1 289:9,15 290:9 291:19 293:5,14 295:8,10 297:15 298:23 301:8,9 302:3 306:9,25 307:4 308:23 354:11 365:9 367:22,24 368:5,9,11 369:13,13 378:10,16 397:17 408:16 430:23 453:8,12 455:9,10,11 455:12,13 457:10 461:9 city's 273:21 281:7 claim 287:12 370:24 372:13 431:5 claiming 304:9 clarification 302:12 377:18 435:3 clarify 269:2 361:24 classes 284:11 clean 285:25 299:11,17 301:9,11,14 408:3 cleaned 301:7,17 cleanup 303:25 clear 349:7,8 367:16 383:21 click 425:8 432:16 clinic 282:5,7 close 292:24 384:7,10 388:25 closing 319:4,8,9 clue 331:9 400:22 405:22 407:22 412:7 413:1,2 414:21 415:10 416:23 423:11 426:6 444:4
445:20 447:18 co-op 267:5 coffee 325:24 334:3 453:1 cold 322:13,18 collect 343:4 collection 341:11,12,12 come 281:14 283:24 306:3 307:7 322:15 325:2 327:17 336:20 339:5,11 340:2,6,12 342:8,17 344:10 345:11 430:22 comes 333:18 339:24 345:15 349:19 coming 326:24 342:3,4,5 391:8 402:5 414:22 commencing 461:11 comment 391:1 commenting 433:1 comments 439:10 449:15 commission 275:10 315:9,11,15,18 316:7,9 316:17,20 317:4,5,7,22 318:15 319:7,14 320:2 320:8,14 461:25 Commissioner 272:23 committee 275:9 276:8 276:20 367:14 368:21 369:25 common 405:7 communicate 408:24 communication 275:23 278:6 310:20 311:19 316:4 399:25 communications 294:9 310:21 316:6 387:24 company 288:9 319:4,5 319:10 compared 379:19 complaint 442:4,10 completely 335:12 complimentary 416:14 composite 262:12 263:4 264:11 374:2,9 387:10 443:24 computer 377:10,11 computers 281:18
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develop 367:4 developed 367:7 372:12 376:8,17 developers 399:15 400:7 developing 308:2 development 262:4 267:8 267:8,12,22,25 268:2,9 271:9 273:22 274:18 275:9 276:8,19,24 277:1,2,20 284:14 287:15 289:21 293:7,9 294:7 295:5,11,14 296:8,17 297:20,25 299:1 301:13,16 302:6 305:18 310:16 313:16 365:17 368:22 376:7,17 377:17,20 378:4,21 380:7,11,12,15 398:23 400:16 402:3 development's 284:17 developments 360:7 400:21 402:5 Devine 361:3,4,5 devious 438:14 439:2,4 dhsanders@kohlerand... 260:5 dialog 433:5 dialysis 282:5,7 Dick 307:18,20 Dickert 259:11 310:15 311:1,9,21 312:12 313:5,9 316:1,15 317:15 318:14 319:13 320:13 321:2 322:10,22 325:8 327:20 329:6,21 330:16,20 331:5,20 332:2 333:24 335:7,10 339:6,8,9 340:8,19 342:3,15 343:1,8,15,22 343:24,25 344:4 345:20 350:4,8 351:3,6,14 352:9 353:18 354:18 363:4,8 370:25 371:2 371:16 372:2,3,13 373:3,5,9 382:20 383:9 384:4,7,10 387:3 407:5 408:2 416:14 419:19 420:6,9,13,18 422:14
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Case 2:14-cv-00208-JPS Filed 09/28/15 Page 58 of 75 Document 235-4
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groups 278:3 guarantee 293:23 guaranteed 376:21 guess 277:16 282:22,23 282:24,24 301:2 381:16 382:24 417:10 guessing 313:14 319:18 Gus's 324:12,14 345:9,12 364:9 366:6 425:23 454:5,7 459:19 guy 305:25 335:17 340:10 342:17 348:9 365:2 381:23 404:21,21 405:11,14,16,21,25,25 413:13,17,22 415:16,17 417:6 421:18 429:3,6,7 431:1 439:15,17 441:20 445:21 guy's 372:4 guys 266:5,19 267:2 290:24 310:10 312:14 337:5 403:13 429:2 430:23 437:12 444:25 445:15 449:9 451:6 452:6,23 453:1 456:21 Gyro 364:9 Gyros 345:9,12 366:6 H H 260:3 261:1 262:1 263:1 264:1 half 303:24 325:21 394:15 427:20 HALL 259:17 461:9 hammer 381:6,15,16 hand 290:20 291:4 347:20 454:18,19 461:20 handed 348:8 handling 403:22 hands 291:7,8 318:19,22 318:24 hang 414:4 hangout 329:4 happen 297:8,10 362:18 408:12,18 421:8 happened 312:4 330:6 427:16
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Case 2:14-cv-00208-JPS Filed 09/28/15 Page 59 of 75 Document 235-4
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Case 2:14-cv-00208-JPS Filed 09/28/15 Page 60 of 75 Document 235-4
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405:20,22,24 406:2,4 Kennedy 378:6,14,16 Kenosha 420:9 421:15 kid 398:5 kids 358:16 408:25 kids' 433:25 Kilbourn 260:12 kind 277:2 278:18 288:10 310:23 325:12 371:18 375:3,22 381:19 384:8 kinds 278:24 428:2 kissing 371:10 knew 265:20 290:7 342:3 346:10,12 396:21 405:17,21,24 406:17 413:14 440:25 446:21 know 265:20 268:13 271:8,10 272:24 274:8 276:11 277:17 278:2,22 282:13,17 283:20,21,22 283:23 284:6 295:17,22 302:2 303:9 304:6,16 304:22 310:22,23,24 313:15,23 314:5 315:22 319:12 320:1,5,14 321:7,12,17,20,23 322:2,20,21 331:10,21 332:5 334:8 335:23 336:18 338:4,24 339:4 339:9 341:20 342:4 343:13 344:21 346:13 348:8 349:24 351:2,18 357:19,20,23,24,24 358:1,2,2 362:4 369:12 369:15,16,17,24 370:3 370:8 371:6 372:9 374:8,16 376:14 377:6 378:6,12 379:1,4,10 380:9 381:10,22 382:1 384:1,3,5,6,8,8,9,12,13 384:14,15,16 385:10,13 385:16,20,25 386:4,7 386:18,19 387:1,3 388:14 390:4,5,16 391:3 392:16 393:11,12 393:17 394:13 396:6 398:24 399:17,19,21 400:4,5,6,21,23 401:1
401:10,18,21,22 402:6 402:8,8 403:10,13,15 403:17 404:14,16,20 405:3,4,12,13,13,23,23 406:4,9,12,16 407:20 407:22,23 408:7 409:22 410:8,11,12 411:7,13 411:19,23 412:3,6,25 412:25 413:14,18,21 414:2,13,17,20 415:9 415:21 416:5,17,18 417:5,10 418:5,8,11,21 418:23 420:4,7,21 421:3,4,24,25 422:1,2,2 422:4,10 423:5,16,18 423:22,24 425:15,19 426:5,13 427:3,11 430:9,10,14 431:13,21 432:2,4 433:10,12 434:8,9 435:8,11 436:10,11,12,15,17,19 436:22,23 437:4,10,14 437:19,22 439:3,4,9,11 439:12,13,17,18 440:2 440:11,13,14,23 441:16 441:17 444:3,17 446:12 446:17,19,22 447:3 448:2,3,10,13,14 449:3 450:3,18,19,21,23 452:3,7,22 453:18 455:3,5 456:3,21 457:4 458:13 460:6,9,11 knowing 284:7 knowledge 282:6,9 317:14 353:20,22,24 354:4,10 457:6 knows 341:4,8 360:24 426:20 427:5 450:21,23 KOHLER 260:2 Kristin 261:14 277:13,15 L L-U-N-D-G-R-E-N 347:5 L-U-T-E-R 314:14,15 lake 267:4 297:2,3 landlord 446:14 Landmark 319:11
321:24 language 317:21 410:14 lasted 350:1,4 late 269:7,9 276:18 law 349:5 lawsuit 430:17 451:2,4,6 451:17,24 453:4,16 laying 345:18 347:24 league 452:5,6,19 453:17 454:2,3 leak 356:10 leave 343:3 leaves 336:9 337:10 left 336:10 340:8,17 left-hand 366:19 Legally 265:9 lesson 281:6 let's 298:14 302:17 307:22 318:22 326:13 370:18 398:25 399:1,4 444:23 445:13 letter 261:19 262:4 263:8 285:3 297:20 302:24 360:18,21,24 403:2,14 404:9,14,18,25 letters 287:25 307:10 406:7 letting 449:3 level 363:20 LF 262:4 297:20,25 299:1 301:16,18,24 302:6,7 305:3 liaison 277:16 278:1,2 417:8 license 456:20,23 458:21 459:5,8,16,18,22 460:3 460:14 licensed 284:9 299:21 300:11 321:3 licenses 376:14 licensing 456:14,19 458:4 life 329:8 lights 281:19 liked 267:5 380:13 415:4 limit 443:8 line 268:4 269:25 312:6 312:13 373:4 429:13 lines 283:17 361:13
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mall 334:6 man 362:4 378:11 384:11 389:6 390:15 410:11 411:12 438:16 manager 347:14,15,16 manages 346:20 manufacturing 301:11 mapidgeon@gmail.com 444:1 maps 288:14 March 275:14 276:21,22 276:24 278:11 384:10 385:1,1 418:1 419:13 422:21 Marcus 407:5,10,11 409:19 410:1,19,23 414:18 415:3,5,5 417:13 418:10,11,13 420:14 Marcus's 407:14 MarcusWalkCard.pdf 414:9 mark 260:7,7 265:17 374:15,16 387:22 402:1 439:16,19,20,22 448:6 448:18 450:1 451:4 Mark's 439:15 marked 270:22 274:1,3 274:21,23 275:20,22 277:4,11 279:19,21 283:10,12 284:23 285:2 M 291:22 294:15,18 M 259:24 265:5 461:3,23 297:11,13 309:8,10,22 Maack 410:18,23 456:6 309:24 365:14 373:23 456:23 457:4,8 458:3,9 373:25 377:13 379:22 458:10,20 459:2 379:24 380:22,24 382:5 Maceman 272:23 382:7 384:20,22 387:8 machine 334:3 345:17 387:11 402:14,16 404:6 347:22 404:8 407:1,3 409:3,5 mad 436:15,22 411:2,4 414:5,7 415:22 mail 388:3,4,9 406:11 415:24 417:1,3 419:9 mailer 394:1 419:11 422:17,19 mailing 395:25 396:4,9 424:18,21,24 429:8 mailings 397:6,7,9,12,21 432:13,15 436:6 439:7 main 312:8 441:24 442:1 443:21,23 making 295:20 303:23 446:7,9 447:13,15 329:1 330:16 344:21,25 451:12,14 454:10,12 360:10 382:20 391:1 Marked/Identified 261:2
looked 310:14 325:18 379:19 390:10,12 411:21 433:15 looking 270:15 275:6 283:15 289:17 296:15 310:13 316:11 358:12 361:14 366:9,14 374:13 377:19,24 379:14 396:15 400:4 403:7 409:18 437:23,25 438:3 438:12,22,23 452:3 456:14,18 457:8,14 458:3 459:8 looks 275:7 292:11 297:19 298:5 366:20 375:23 382:24 385:5 387:17,21 388:13,25 389:21 395:7,16 411:15 417:24 419:12 423:1 loop 271:13 272:1 450:19 450:20 452:22,25 453:4 lose 335:16 446:4 lot 308:8 399:11,14,25 408:14,22 422:2 432:8 436:1,2 453:24 love 349:4 359:15 lunch 430:23 434:11 lunchtime 331:10 Lundgren 346:23 347:5 Luter 314:14 317:16
262:2 263:2 264:2 market 267:5 marking 382:9 Marty's 366:23 materials 276:21 Matt 368:3 matter 419:5 446:2 mayor 310:15 311:1,9,21 312:12 313:5 316:15 318:13 323:14,14 329:6 331:4 332:2 335:10 340:19 343:1 370:24 371:2,11,13,16 407:5 408:1 409:19 410:1 416:16 421:15 430:11 433:3 460:2,13 mayoral 320:18 411:11 412:1 mdr@racinedefense.c... 260:9 mean 276:16,18,23 280:22 296:10 300:22 312:19 317:11 323:3 330:24 331:22 334:5 345:14 370:17 379:18 400:8,14 405:12 410:21 411:20 415:4,14 416:2 419:5 422:1,14 424:4 430:10 433:7,24 438:3 456:18 Meaning 367:19 368:8 means 293:11,13 294:5 374:2 381:16,16 397:6 401:12,18 433:12 439:3 meant 451:22 mechanic 286:23 287:1,2 287:3 300:16 mechanical 286:20 mechanics 301:1 meet 348:7 421:22 meeting 261:4,9,11,21 262:6 270:19,25 271:9 275:8 291:18 292:10,12 306:4 309:12 311:2,10 336:25 337:17,20 338:6 338:6,10,22,25 339:22 340:13 349:25 356:23 357:5 369:6,10,25
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Minnesota 267:4 minority 364:25 365:1,2 365:3 minute 269:6 391:22 minutes 261:21 262:7 311:18 325:21 341:5,16 350:2,5 361:5 441:8 448:11 missed 300:15 301:19 303:1 missing 278:24 405:20 misspoke 451:22 mistake 299:24 mistaken 413:25 misunderstood 343:12 Mitch 366:23 mix 269:24 274:17 MLS 314:20 mom 459:1 Monday 370:9 money 293:25 309:17 312:16 322:15 326:5 328:1 329:23 334:22 335:13,15,18,19,24 336:4,5,15,17 337:1,6 337:11,12 338:1,23 340:24 342:17 343:4,9 343:23,24,25 344:10,20 345:11,20 346:3 350:19 351:9,12 352:21 353:15 354:3 363:9 376:7,11 376:15,16,18 407:12 455:1 Monte 312:17,24 361:4,6 361:7 385:7,22 Monte's 385:21 month 266:16 375:25 months 266:17 450:10 morning 324:19 325:5 326:16,16,18 341:20,22 424:6 453:2 moron 382:21 383:11,15 383:20,23,24 mortar 281:17 mortgage 289:18 motion 272:23 273:10 motor 301:1 Mouse 393:21
move 284:25 308:7 419:8 451:9 moved 267:3 moving 308:14 310:10 332:8 Multiple 321:8,13,18 mutual 309:2 N N 260:1,19 265:5,5 name 286:24 287:22 307:19 372:4,5,9 445:7 name's 416:4,4 narratives 449:14 near 287:15 necessarily 393:6 necessary 447:2 need 284:8 301:17 368:10 needed 281:24 323:14 335:14,24 337:4 needs 386:25 negotiate 317:12 negotiations 307:9 neighborhood 360:23 367:16,20 404:21,22 411:6 Neither 270:10 never 272:8 281:25 283:1 286:4,5 290:9,17 294:23 297:7,10 302:22 321:5,24 335:16 343:25 346:1 354:12 360:2 368:24,24 369:2 403:18 405:19 415:10 421:19 423:4,11,23 424:7,7 425:24 427:10 436:20 440:18 441:18,21 443:3 447:5,7,10,12 455:6,11 455:12,13 456:2,3,4 new 297:9 315:19 355:20 449:4,7,7,11 news 453:1,7 newspaper 282:11,13 453:2 nice 348:7 398:20 421:18 429:6,7 431:1 nicely 290:23 291:1,9,10
NICHOLS 260:11 Nicholson 260:15 441:5 Nico 416:5 Niemiec 261:14 277:13 277:15 278:8 night 326:16 336:24 337:2,13,23 419:19 420:8,14 439:16 455:17 nine 283:17 Nope 321:6 369:3,11 445:12 452:2 454:25 455:2 458:16 normal 441:19 normally 429:17 north 260:3 303:24 365:11,12,13 northwest 365:9 Notary 461:3,23 note 272:24 notes 271:21 373:8 notice 261:7 274:5 409:12 noticed 278:24 November 446:13 number 280:1 281:22 307:23 308:3,3 316:18 327:2,14 372:6 380:3 446:21 449:2 O O 265:5 O'Connell 261:15 280:1 280:7 368:3 370:11,12 377:19 379:7 381:20 406:15 oath 265:3 object 348:25 objection 355:13 obligation 285:14 obscenity 421:9 observe 299:18,19 observed 299:3 obviously 300:15 397:24 413:10,21 423:20 425:20 432:2,8 433:7 446:25 448:12 occasions 334:19 occur 325:22 336:23
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Case 2:14-cv-00208-JPS Filed 09/28/15 Page 63 of 75 Document 235-4
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Case 2:14-cv-00208-JPS Filed 09/28/15 Page 64 of 75 Document 235-4
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produced 294:21 profer 360:18,21,24 361:20 364:1 profit 316:22 program 388:3,5,9 project 267:13 271:6 277:21 280:4 287:11 292:7 293:21 307:5,18 310:17 311:11 312:9,11 313:2,6 323:13 325:9 335:17 369:22 371:1,17 371:21 374:20 404:23 434:23,25 project's 325:17 projects 379:5 436:4 property 268:8 270:1 273:23 277:7 278:8,19 278:25 279:9,13 281:16 281:24 282:3,4 285:25 288:3,17,23 292:14,19 296:22 304:5,8,10,14 305:4,16 306:22 307:21 313:21 315:1 316:1 379:13 425:22 426:12 428:15 456:11 proponent 380:8 proposal 286:20 290:2,4 375:9 380:13 proposed 267:8 288:25 378:8 proposing 296:5 378:19 378:22 379:1 prosecution 363:20 protected 363:19 protection 363:23 provide 285:15,19 289:9 305:20 306:5,10 provided 264:22 305:24 342:25 367:12 369:6 379:4 providing 285:23,24 public 286:18 430:11,13 432:20 461:4,23 pull 321:24 388:20 457:1 pulling 444:7 pumps 281:19 378:22,24 379:7,8 purchase 268:8 285:17
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Case 2:14-cv-00208-JPS Filed 09/28/15 Page 65 of 75 Document 235-4
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336:18 338:15 345:5 357:19 358:2 359:14 381:12,25 382:3 383:1 387:4 389:4,12 390:15 392:12 398:3 401:8 407:22 408:4 412:25 431:7 442:16 REALTIME 259:25 realtors 329:3 reason 269:9 280:21,23 281:12 299:16,17 333:17 392:7,13,17 399:12,14 403:19,21,24 413:3 421:9 430:4 reasonable 393:4 recall 265:17 266:14 267:9,22 268:10,13 270:14,18 277:9,15 279:10,11 283:13 286:25 287:5,22 288:8 288:21 291:21 292:21 292:25 294:18,24 309:6 311:1,25 313:21,24 314:13 315:3 316:12 317:11 318:3,4 319:15 319:16 322:4,6,8,13,16 323:17,18,19,24,25,25 325:4 326:3,9,9,14,17 326:20,21,24 327:16,21 329:10,13,19,22,25 330:3,5,22 331:4,6,12 331:13 332:7 333:19,23 334:1,13,15,17 335:8 336:3 340:14 342:11,19 342:22,25 343:5 345:5 352:22,23 353:1,1,2,3,4 353:5,7 354:14 356:7 357:6,18,25 363:17 365:19 367:14 369:8,20 371:19 372:17 373:17 373:19 376:10 377:18 377:22 382:13,25 386:1 388:10,16 389:4,12 392:6,12,12 396:8 397:3,20 398:1,17 402:21,24 404:9 408:1 408:5,6 409:6,24 410:3 411:21 424:4 425:12
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restaurants 454:8 result 279:14 363:20 retain 442:20 retire 351:19 retired 351:21 return 294:1 308:23 returning 310:1 reverse 369:7 review 265:12 275:9 276:8,17,20 279:8 287:7 reviewed 304:4,7 368:24 reviewing 276:13 415:7 revise 317:24 revised 269:24 revisions 268:17,18 revitalization 367:13 368:20 369:25 rhyme 333:17 Richards 260:7,7 290:24 308:11 348:25 349:4 355:12 357:13 358:7 359:9,15 360:15,25 361:14,19 362:6,8,11 383:14,21 385:15 401:11,15,23 402:10 404:2 412:8 441:1,7 448:11,23 449:4,18 450:10 451:4,18,20 Rick 369:13 370:4 right 265:10 268:14,18 269:22,23 270:4,18,25 271:19,20,23 273:11,16 273:25 276:4,10 279:17 281:9 288:22 289:24 290:3 293:15,16 295:5 295:6 297:3 298:8 300:23 302:19,21,23 303:2 304:2 305:5 307:3 308:13 311:12,14 313:25 318:22 324:6 328:5 329:24 330:5 331:19 333:1 334:17 336:20 337:8 344:5,6 349:3 350:10 351:4 354:12 355:5 357:12,14 358:9,22,23 360:22 361:18 362:21 367:11
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Case 2:14-cv-00208-JPS Filed 09/28/15 Page 67 of 75 Document 235-4
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shit 356:15 453:22,23 shits 339:8 shocked 443:20 shop 279:3 286:20 287:13,22 298:18 299:25 300:16,16 shopping 334:5 short 320:24 340:4 356:19 404:5 shots 388:6 389:9 391:8 show 270:24 274:3,23 275:22 277:11 279:21 285:2 294:17 297:13 309:24 311:9 312:24 313:5 341:25 342:1 359:13 361:16 373:25 380:24 382:7 384:22 387:10 402:16 404:8 407:3 409:5 411:4 414:7 415:9,24 416:18 417:3 419:11 424:21 432:15 442:1 443:23 446:9 447:15 449:20,23 451:14 454:12 showed 283:1 307:10 316:1 379:5,11,17 showing 283:12 309:10 377:15 379:24 380:9 414:16 422:19 shown 365:25 389:11 390:2 425:2,4 shows 340:6 side 303:24 304:3 365:9 365:11,12,13 366:16,19 Signature 461:22 signed 269:14,17 311:15 360:18,21 375:8,12 signs 401:16 similar 375:13 379:5,5 395:8 sir 293:15 338:14 343:7 346:7 360:6 362:20 388:19 432:1 Siren 409:10 410:4,10,17 410:24 sit 281:20 311:8 313:15 316:14 318:13 320:1,5 320:13 334:9 356:16
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2011 407:4 408:1 411:8 414:9 418:1,21 419:14 420:1 422:21 423:2 427:8 429:11 432:17 433:21,23 2013 444:24 446:13 2 2014 356:24 452:10 2 289:1,10,15 297:4 2015 259:19 398:11 301:20,20,25 302:3,18 454:20 461:10,21 302:22 303:4,7 305:14 2017 461:25 305:16,20,24 306:5,11 209 260:8 310:14 315:11,11 21 365:5 319:21 320:4 364:16 2100 262:10 292:19 2,000 375:20,20,23 398:4 331:17 365:17 366:5 2,041.10 396:17 368:21 456:9 2.5 281:10 22 361:13 422:21 2.8 280:12 281:3,13,13 228 388:20,21 389:2,11 283:19,24 391:10 394:12,21 395:6 2/13/11 264:4 396:4,9 397:21 398:2 2/3 319:17 398:14 401:8 402:11 2/4 319:15,17 23 385:1 419:14 2/6 412:21 234 268:22 2/7/2011 263:14 25 325:21 361:13 455:7 20 350:5 395:10 441:7 262 260:9 2000 329:16,17 437:14 265 260:22 2001 329:16 27 262:5 297:21 302:23 2002 313:13 327:5 270 261:5 328:20 329:16 271 261:5 2003 327:5 328:20 271-9595 260:4 329:16,17 273-1300 260:13 2004 313:13 327:5 274 261:8,8,10 328:20 275 261:10,12 2006 370:18 276 261:12 2007 370:18 277 261:14,14 2009 262:15 307:15,17 279 261:16,16 320:18 322:5,24 346:25 28 259:19 373:17 377:16,16 378:3 283 261:17,17 387:18 389:7 390:8 284 261:19 393:13 395:10,20,23 285 261:19 396:25 397:2,4 398:9 28th 461:10 2010 261:4,8,19 262:5,6,9 29 461:25 270:20 271:1 272:16 291 261:22,22 274:6,9 278:11 285:5 294 261:23 287:4 289:14 291:20 295 261:23 297:21 302:24 306:20 297 262:5,5 307:13,15 309:12 310:3 3 384:10 385:1,3 433:23 3 261:4,8 271:1 272:14 447:25 16 262:9 310:3 18 276:21,22,25 324:1 387:18 450:10 1900 260:12 19th 446:2
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