Somehow I Am Now Wishing I Had Read More Nietszche When I Was Younger... - Grasping Reality with Both Hands
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Grasping Reality with Both Hands The Semi-Daily Journal of Economist J. Bradford DeLong: Fair, Balanced, RealityBased, and Even-Handed Department of Economics, U.C. Berkeley #3880, Berkeley, CA 94720-3880; 925 708 0467; delong@econ.berkeley.edu.
Economics 210a Weblog Archives DeLong Hot on Google DeLong Hot on Google Blogsearch October 13, 2010
Somehow I Am Now Wishing I Had Read More Nietszche When I Was Younger... Last week I spent some time with a group of people I don't usually spend much time talking to. They were not rich--by which I don't mean that they had overstretched themselves by buying a seven-figure principal residence but rather that they weren't rich: their household income was in the five or, for some of them, perhaps the very low six figures. And (which is unusual for Berkeley) they were not lefties, neither cultural nor sociological. They were deeply concerned with the future of our country. And they were desperate to figure out how to engage in effective political action--but had few illusions that the politicians they would vote for in November were their kind of people with their interests at heart. I suppose that in a previous era, back when there were private-sector unions, they might have been union stewards. But now we have no private-sector unions. And so they are activists from the California Tea Party. So I went through my standard spiel. Housing bubble. 5 million excess houses built in the desert between Los Angeles and Albuquerque, and on all of them the least $100K of mortgage debt will not be repaid. A $500B loss in an $80T world economy. Shouldn't have been a problem—securitization exists to spread risks. But the banks http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/10/somehow-i-am-now-wishing-i-had-read-more-nietszche-when-i-was-younger.html
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pretended that the AAA MBS issued by other banks were high-quality Basel capital even though they knew full well the dreck that they were issuing. A financial multiplier of 40. A flight to safety. A big shift away from spending on currently-produced goods and services and on currently-employed labor as people tried to build up their stocks of safe assets. A multiplier as people who lost their jobs stopped spending, and the situation snowballed. It could have been worse, I said. Without all of the rescue policies we would probably now have an unemployment rate of 16 percent rather than 10 percent. But they question is what to do now with the economy. The idea is not to go to socialism—not to nationalize large chunks of the economy and have everybody work for the government—but to conduct strategic interventions in financial markets. Relieve the excess demand for safe high-quality assets and you remove the pressure on people to spend less than they earn as they try to build up their stocks of safe assets, and you get a virtuous circle of strong recovery. So, I said, the right thing to do is the Bagehot rule: lend freely at a penalty rate. The government should throw huge amounts of money at the financial markets and in the process take a large chunk of the upside in equities and options. SOCIALISM, they said. We don't want SOCIALISM. But it's not socialism, I said. It's an attempt to avoid socialism—it's an attempt to conduct a strategic intervention into the market economy so that it can rebalance itself. SOCIALISM, they said. Well, I said, how about lending freely to the financial sector but forget Bagehot's "penalty rate" stuff? BAILOUT, they said. BAILOUT OF CORRUPT FINANCIERS WITH WASHINGTON CONNECTIONS, they said. WE LIKE THAT EVEN LESS. Well, I said, how about pushing off taxes into the future, bringing forward infrastructure spending we know that we will want to do, and financing it by issuing more government debt? The spending should put some people to work, and the extra government bonds we print up will increase the supply of safe assets, decrease the excess demand, and so remove some of the downward pressure that is inducing people to spend less than they earn/ DEFICIT, they said. DEFICIT BAD. MUST REDUCE THE DEFICIT. GOVERNMENT MUST LIVE WITHIN ITS MEANS. But, I said, the U.S. government now can borrow at unbelievable terms. If you could borrow at such terms, you would bust out the top of your house and add a second story immediately. GOVERNMENT MUST LIVE WITHIN ITS MEANS. OK, I said. How about having the federal government aid the states. We want to keep our police and our fire and our road maintenance and our schools running at their efficient levels, don't we? It's stupid to cut back on the long-term foundations of our economy and its growth because of recession, isn't it. How about a large program of federal aid to the states so that teachers, sewer workers, police officers, and firefighters can keep their jobs, keep protecting us—and keep spending and so provide employment for the rest of us? ARE YOU KIDDING? THEY HAVE KEPT THEIR UNIONS. WE HAVE LOST OUR
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UNIONS. WE HAVE LOST OUR JOBS. THEY HAVE GONE TO CHINA. THEY HAVE VANISHED. WE ARE UNEMPLOYED. IF WE ARE EMPLOYED WE HAVE NO BARGAINING POWER WITH OUR BOSSES. IT IS NOT FAIR FOR STATE WORKERS TO NOT ONLY HAVE UNIONS, BARGAINING POWER, AND PENSIONS, BUT FOR THEM TO HAVE THEIR JOBS TOO. SINCE WE ARE LOSING OUR JOBS THEY SHOULD LOSE THEIR JOBS TOO. IT IS NOT FAIR. Oh. EVERYTHING YOU PROPOSE TAKES OUR HARD-EARNED MONEY, TAXES IT AWAY FROM US, AND GIVES IT TO SOMEBODY ELSE. Oh. BERKELEY SOCIALIST. So what do you think we should do? GET US JOBS! But you have just rejected every idea I have for boosting employment—short of nationalizing the means of production and employing everybody by the government, that is. What are your ideas? CUT TAXES. ABOLISH THE EPA. REPEAL HEALTH CARE REFORM. KEEP GOVERNMENT'S HANDS OFF OF MEDICARE. RAISE SOCIAL SECURITY PAYMENTS. CUT THE DEFICIT. Brad DeLong on October 13, 2010 at 09:13 AM in Economics, Economics: Macro, Philosophy: Moral, Political Economy, Politics | Permalink Favorite
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Comments anon said... Interesting and sad, but I fail to see what it has to do with Nietzsche. Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:19 AM Neal said... Perhaps listen more to Bob Dylan Come gather 'round people Wherever you roam And admit that the waters http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/10/somehow-i-am-now-wishing-i-had-read-more-nietszche-when-i-was-younger.html
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Around you have grown And accept it that soon You'll be drenched to the bone. If your time to you Is worth savin' Then you better start swimmin' Or you'll sink like a stone For the times they are a-changin'. Come writers and critics Who prophesize with your pen And keep your eyes wide The chance won't come again And don't speak too soon For the wheel's still in spin And there's no tellin' who That it's namin'. For the loser now Will be later to win For the times they are a-changin'. Come senators, congressmen Please heed the call Don't stand in the doorway Don't block up the hall For he that gets hurt Will be he who has stalled There's a battle outside ragin'. It'll soon shake your windows And rattle your walls For the times they are a-changin'. Come mothers and fathers Throughout the land And don't criticize What you can't understand Your sons and your daughters Are beyond your command Your old road is Rapidly agin'. Please get out of the new one If you can't lend your hand For the times they are a-changin'. The line it is drawn The curse it is cast The slow one now Will later be fast As the present now Will later be past The order is Rapidly fadin'. And the first one now http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/10/somehow-i-am-now-wishing-i-had-read-more-nietszche-when-i-was-younger.html
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Will later be last For the times they are a-changin'. Play it really loud. Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:24 AM CT Mike said... Well, this is the world and people we are dealing with, for better or worse (mostly worse). These are a group of people who are proudly and wilfully ignorant, and their leaders are either the same or hypocritical opportunists, willing to play on the anger of their constituency of dolts. The next decade should be fun. Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:24 AM Neal said... Conversely, sympathy, generosity, and equality are all qualities that one associates with good moral character, not with contemptibility as Nietzsche does. The noble spirit that ....Nietzsche speaks of would not embrace these traditional ethical traits. To manipulate characters of fragility and frailty, to indulge in one’s supremacy, and to pamper one’s self with praise, are preferably what Nietzsche considers to be the intrinsic and admirable traits of the good. Traditional ethicists revile these characteristics and see them as they may prompt the decaying of civilization. Nevertheless, Nietzsche merely suggests that it is instinctive of humans to inflict their will to power. Analogously, the Darwinist theory of evolution verifies such a claim as it is the survival of the fittest that determines what species endures and what species ceases to exist. The fittest in accordance to Nietzsche’s ethical principles are the good and those who strive to dominate over inferior beings. Perhaps this is precisely why many conventional ethicists would refute Nietzsche’s will to power..... http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/pecorip/SCCCWEB/ETEXTS/ETHICS/Chapter_11_Existentialism/Nietzsche.htm Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:28 AM John said... The american people don't want a government, they want guardian angels. Invisible, omnipotent actors that will make everything okay but never reveal their existence and spoil the illusion of american individualist independence. Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:31 AM bcamarda said... Bad times bring out the worst in people. In sustained bad times, everyone sees everything as a zero sum game. Of course, the more Republicans you elect, the more cut-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face policies you enact, the more inequality and unfairness results, and the more angry folks get. It is hard to see at the moment how we escape from this vicious circle. Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:35 AM dd said... No inconsistency. They're ready to make cuts in Social Security and Medicare. Also, the issue with public employees is that they're not willing to fund it. This isn't mere ressentiment. Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:35 AM Jim said... Brad, You didn't mention the possibility of printing money a la Functional Finance. Is that not the only real solution? http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/10/somehow-i-am-now-wishing-i-had-read-more-nietszche-when-i-was-younger.html
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Jim commentsongpe.wordpress.com Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:43 AM anon said in reply to Neal... It's been almost a decade since I seriously studied Nietzsche and probably about 5 years since I read anything of his, but I don't think this is exactly what Nietzsche was getting at. His point, as I understand it, is not that traits which are normally regarded as "good" are in fact "bad". Instead I think he's arguing that our societal adoption of which traits are "good" is designed to subjugate the strong to the weak. In order to become superior, one must discard the entire classification system (rather than simply placing new traits into the "good" category.) That doesn't mean however that such superior/advanced people cannot behave generously-it means simply that if they do it's because it's what they WANT to do. In any event, it seems to me that the people being discussed here lack the selfawareness to be truly following Nietzsche. Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:44 AM Richard said in reply to dd... Um, no, they want to raise SS payments and keep Medicare. Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:47 AM the idler said... He is referring to Also Sprach Tee Baggers, an obscure work. Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:48 AM Donald Broder said... I applaud Brad's courage in attempting to speak rationally to a group he undoubtedly knew beforehand would be difficult at least. One would hope that even a conservative Republican would be able to listen to what Brad had to say and discuss the ideas. It sounds like what he got instead were slogans. For me the most frightening thing is that so many Americans are easily fed falsehoods and manipulated by politicians and groups who are funded by the biggest and most cynical money interests in the country. I'm scared. Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:48 AM nilso said in reply to dd... dd, I disagree; they are inconsistent- most Teabaggers say "Don't TOUCH my Medicare" by which they mean, no changes, which means among other things, no cuts. Same with Social Security. "Don't touch my Medicare" is one of their mantras, not just a throwaway line. Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:48 AM Zach said... The problem is that they aren't thinking through the logical consequences of their premises. They argue that uncertainty over health care reform is preventing companies from hiring, but don't answer the question of, "Well, if that's true then why have they stopped hiring NOW when the full effect of the law isn't even until 2014?" They argue that their hard-earned money is being used to fund bailouts and fiscal investments, but don't answer the questions of, "Well, what about the fact that most of the TARP money
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was actually paid back into federal coffers? What about the fact that certain fiscal investments represent long-term economic planning because our country's infrastructure and education policies have significant structural effects? What about the fact that fiscal spending, if done well, has a multiplier effect because it fosters spending in all other segments of the economy?" The counterarguments they make might lead to some common ground. For example, I can well imagine that fears/uncertainties over tax increases and health care costs could restrict new hiring in some job sectors. The problem with Tea Partiers is that they don't make those arguments, or point to that evidence. It isn't that they're evil or surpassingly ignorant or fascist. (At least for the most part). The problem is that they make statements in lieu of arguments, and display information avoidance that can be attributed to the heated nature of partisan political debates in this country today. Our sound-bite culture has proliferated the idea that shouting stock phrases is an acceptable substitute for in-depth dialogue. And that ingrained societal trend bothers me even more than whatever the political flavor of the week may be. Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:50 AM JeffreyY said... Wait, you had these people in a room with you, and you didn't make them show you how their proposals add up? What the money flows look like now, and would look like after their proposals? You didn't ask them what they meant by "Socialism"? They're ignorant and gullible, but surely they can add. Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:51 AM Matt Young said... Central government could start buying up the occasional house at foreclosure auctions, under the bet that something in the future will make house prices rise. What is the something that makes future house prices rise? Is it something Congress could do anyway? Is it something the private sector is planning in secret? The Fed magic wand? Perhaps an invention that shaves $300/month from household budgets? Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:52 AM save_the_rustbelt said... I hope Prof. Delong keeps in mind these tea folks have "real" jobs, they do not have the luxury, as do the professoriate and the semi-retired, to sit around reading and thinking and writing and often getting paid well for "work of the mind." Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:53 AM Richard said... You can blame these people, but larger picture, you have to blame the Democrats for letting corporatists hijack their party. If the Democrats had any idea of long-term party survival in the past 2 decades, they would have known that unions are their base, and they should have done everything possible to facilitate the growth of private sector unions (whatever it takes: tariffs, impediments on free trade) and kept capital markets from being opened up to the masses (this is actually a good thing, as the small investor tends to lose money on the market) so that the working class has a clear incentive to promote their own interests. You can't blame the GOP for pursuing their interests (even if they are cynical in their methods); you can blame the Dem for being short-sighted and committing to being a party of Rockefeller Republicans.
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Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:53 AM save_the_rustbelt said... Some of them "had" "real" jobs, to be accurate. Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:56 AM a historian said... We overheard a woman with similar beliefs having a dinner conversation with her daughter and the daughter's beau [in a restaurant in a midwest college town]. The remarkable thing, for me, was that whenever the daughter or the daughter's friend offered some piece of countervailing factual evidence (such as, deficits have consistently risen under Republican administrations) it was met with the statement: "that's liberal propaganda." Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:57 AM HP said... Forget Nietzsche. Habermas has the answer. The modern economy has grown so complex and alien to everyday experience that the median voter does not understand it. And so they have no way to distinguish Brad Delong's analysis from Glenn Beck's analysis. So they go with Beck - which at least they can understand. Charismatic liberal politicians like Obama can sometimes fight back by out-messaging them. But it is always a transient victory. The only long-term solution to fix American democracy is to restore trust in experts and their analysis. I do not know how to do that. Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:57 AM bdbd said... you mean "boosting employment" (towards the end of the thing), not "boosting unemployment" (unless your objectives are different than what I believed them to be) Reply October 13, 2010 at 10:01 AM Paxz said... If you stare into the Abyss long enough the Abyss stares back at you. - Friedrich Nietzsche Give up on fools that speak only in platitudes. Reply October 13, 2010 at 10:02 AM Graydon said... I think Brad's point was that if he _had_ read Nietsche, he could have possibly come up with an argument that would have worked. If you repeat something a lot, it becomes true to the hearer; there's increasing evidence that even things you know are false effect your judgement if you hear them constantly. What's been repeated a lot -- for 40 years, with billions of dollars behind it -- is a set of axioms that insist government is illegitimate and cannot work, and indeed, were those axioms are factual, government cannot work. That the axioms are not factual won't have emotional effect without corresponding amounts of repetition. It's bug in the wetware. The audience does have a point that the system as it now exists functions to damage them. (The purpose of a system is what it does. Not what you want it to do, what you think it ought to do, or what it was meant to do; what it is observed to do.) Wealth concentration damages everybody, even the people it's making more wealthy. (Because it strangles the ability of the economy to grow; they could probably have died with more toys if they'd pushed a more capable economy over all-this-cash-is-belong-tome.) What they probably want is a vision for a system what would exist to increase http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/10/somehow-i-am-now-wishing-i-had-read-more-nietszche-when-i-was-younger.html
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their prosperity; they've got a very strong set of contra-factual axioms at present, so they're horribly frustrated because what they think will increase their prosperity won't, even if they could get it, which they can't, but the thing they really want is to believe they live somewhere where the system isn't rigged against their increase in prosperity. Reply October 13, 2010 at 10:09 AM Herman said... Isn't consistency of choice the foundation on which the entire edifice of 'economic theory' (theorems actually) stands? Reply October 13, 2010 at 10:10 AM albrt said... It would help if there were some leaders in Washington promoting workable proposals that have a chance of success. I suspect many of the teabagger folks could have been persuaded by a little success. But there is no chance of that now. I would be hopeful if I thought our leaders had at least learned a lesson. Perhaps a lesson like "conspicuous failure does not not have the same persuasive value as success no matter how many academics argue that doing more of the failed policies would produce success." I happen to agree that more and better stimulus, bank regulation, etc. would have produced a better result. That argument had some merit when Paul Krugman made it contemporaneously, but it is a waste of time 18 months after failure has been baked in the cake. Today the argument is structurally the same as the argument conservatives always use - if our leadership failed it's because they weren't conservative enough. By the way, I read a lot of Nietzsche when I was younger. It was comforting in a way, but did not produce much benefit in the short run. My life got much better when I stopped reading Nietzsche, although I would say Neitzsche probably helped me develop a vague sort of stoicism that is helpful in times like these. Reply October 13, 2010 at 10:10 AM The Money Demand Blog said... Brad, you should have explained them which tax cuts deepen the recession, and which are helpful. See Gauti Eggertsson: "Fiscal policies aimed directly at stimulating aggregate demand work better. These policies include 1) a temporary increase in government spending; and 2) tax cuts aimed directly at stimulating aggregate demand rather than aggregate supply, such as an investment tax credit or a cut in sales taxes." http://www.newyorkfed.org/research/staff_reports/sr402.html Reply October 13, 2010 at 10:26 AM William Hurley said... Professor, might I ask if you felt (increasingly) like the "madman" around whom Nietzsche builds a parable of ultimate acts and ultimate responsibilities? Here's the last 2 paragraphs of that parable from the "Gay Science", with minor edits to emphasize the parable's parallels to what I read as your position and the paradox which came into sharp relief. --Here the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners; and they, too, were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, and it broke into pieces and went out. "I have come too early," he said then; "my time is not yet. This tremendous event is still on its way, still wandering; it has not yet http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/10/somehow-i-am-now-wishing-i-had-read-more-nietszche-when-i-was-younger.html
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reached the ears of men. Lightning and thunder require time; the light of the stars requires time; deeds, though done, still require time to be seen and heard. This deed is still more distant from them than most distant stars---and yet they have done it themselves. It has been related further that on the same day the madman forced his way into several churches and there struck up his requiem aeternam deo. Led out and called to account, he is said always to have replied nothing but: "What after all are these [houses] now if they are not the tombs and sepulchers of [unbound indulgence]?" Reply October 13, 2010 at 10:30 AM Jim Harrison said... I assume Brad was referring to Nietzsche's theory that the morality and therefore the politics of the Many are rooted in spite and envy, what the French call ressentiment. Hence the Tea Bagger's endless, self-piteous bleating about elites. The would-be John Galts in the Republican party may imagine themselves to be Ubermenschen— Objectivism is something of a mass-market reprise of Nietzsche—but the shrieking you hear at Town Hall meetings comes from little people who are all too aware they are little people. The Republicans understand and promote these feelings and the characteristic selfishness that goes with them. Somebody in the comments suggested that the Tea Baggers were open to cutting Medicare and Social Security, but the Conservatives who call for these cuts are always extremely careful to point out they won't effect people who are already getting benefits. It's not as if the 67 year olds are going to have to go back to work. We'll just make somebody else suffer later, somebody younger and browner. Reply October 13, 2010 at 10:40 AM Michael Carroll said in reply to JeffreyY... Yes it is frustrating that the post ends just when the story is getting interesting. I was left wondering how many of these folks can do arithmetic. Reply October 13, 2010 at 10:41 AM Corey Mutter said... @a historian: What you're seeing is called "epistemic closure". The reasoning goes something like this: - Liberally-biased sources of information are not to be trusted. - If a source says something that disagrees with my conservative worldview, it is by definition liberally biased. - Therefore my conservative worldview is correct. It's not circular reasoning, it just has no loose ends :-) It's also not limited to the Right. Even if P.Krug himself were to tell me that we were on the downwards-sloping part of the Laffer Curve, he'd better be packing some pretty impressive evidence. Reply October 13, 2010 at 10:50 AM Anderson said... The really interesting part, I think (and the part that does smack of ressentiment) is the part about resenting the public sector's unions. It's like the Russian peasant who didn't want the genie to give him a cow like his
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neighbor's, he just wanted the genie to kill his neighbor's cow. Assuming the complete veracity of DeLong's account, this is a classic example of the GOP's gaining the support of the exact people it's screwed. Reply October 13, 2010 at 11:07 AM The Raven said... ...and your foot comes back deep fried. Reply October 13, 2010 at 11:22 AM Jon said... Here's why Nietzsche gets mentioned: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ressentiment#Kierkegaard_and_Nietzsche Reply October 13, 2010 at 11:29 AM bakho said... Read more Nietzsche: We often refuse to accept an idea merely because the tone of voice in which it has been expressed is unsympathetic to us. There are horrible people who, instead of solving a problem, tangle it up and make it harder to solve for anyone who wants to deal with it. Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all. Great indebtedness does not make men grateful, but vengeful; and if a little charity is not forgotten, it turns into a gnawing worm. All truth is simple... is that not doubly a lie? Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man. In everything one thing is impossible: rationality. The irrationality of a thing is no argument against its existence, rather a condition of it. In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies. It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. Faith: not wanting to know what is true. Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. There are no facts, only interpretations. All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses. A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. Extreme positions are not succeeded by moderate ones, but by contrary extreme positions. All sciences are now under the obligation to prepare the ground for the future task of the philosopher, which is to solve the problem of value, to determine the true hierarchy of values. Anyone who has declared someone else to be an idiot, a bad apple, is annoyed when it
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turns out in the end that he isn't. Arrogance on the part of the meritorious is even more offensive to us than the arrogance of those without merit: for merit itself is offensive. That which does not kill us makes us stronger. After coming into contact with a religious man I always feel I must wash my hands. Plato was a bore. Reply October 13, 2010 at 11:33 AM Andrew said... This is probably the most depressing thing I have read all day - perhaps all week or month. Is there any way to get them out of their hypnotic trance? Do they not have loved ones who will stage interventions? (or are their loved ones all in similar trances?) Reply October 13, 2010 at 11:46 AM Dan Helphrey said... "SOCIALISM, they said. We don't want SOCIALISM. But it's not socialism, I said. It's an attempt to avoid socialism—it's an attempt to conduct a strategic intervention into the market economy so that it can rebalance itself. SOCIALISM, they said." That pretty much describes 99% of all internet "debate" on the issue. Reply October 13, 2010 at 11:46 AM s9 said... And this is why America has a servant problem. Reply October 13, 2010 at 12:00 PM Steve Smith said... Understanding these people is not made any easier by considering the esoterical mutterings of philosophers (or economists, obviously). Their motivations are mostly ignorant resentment of "them" -- without that much distinction made about who that might be. I think the apt citation is to the proverbial villager in (say, Serbo-Croatian districts) who was approached by an emissary from God (or perhaps he rubbed a lamp which released a genie) who tells him that he will be granted his wish for anything to be bestowed on him -- with the one proviso that whatever he receives will be granted twice-over to his neighbor. He thought and pondered for a few minutes, and then said: "Strike me blind in one eye!" Reply October 13, 2010 at 12:07 PM MH said... Blessed are the sleepy ones; for they shall soon drop off... Reply October 13, 2010 at 12:12 PM Bill said... I'm now a Berkeley lefty, but was raised in a lower-middle class ethnic area in Chicago. My family fits the tea-party mindset quite well. My Dad is long dead, but was totally won over to the GOP by mental images of welfare queens in Cadillacs. My Mom is still around, and fully believes that Obama is a Socialist, even when I tell her that people like me feel like he's compromised far too much with the right. Simple stereotypes are http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/10/somehow-i-am-now-wishing-i-had-read-more-nietszche-when-i-was-younger.html
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typically more convincing to them than are nuanced logical arugments like Brad was trying to provide. I think that it was sheer brilliance of Fox News that it treated the tea partiers like wise patriots right from the beginning. By stroking their vanity, Fox has been able to consistently steer the movement toward favoring programs that benefit the rich over the poor. If only Obama could have provided a convincing alternative world view ... Reply October 13, 2010 at 12:13 PM longtime reader said... This is one of Brad's most enjoyable posts in a long time. Reply October 13, 2010 at 12:14 PM MP Jones said in reply to Richard... Damn straight. Reply October 13, 2010 at 12:22 PM Davis X. Machina said... Re Habermas, and the idea that the modern economy has grown so complex and alien to everyday experience that the median voter does not understand it. He's spot on. Brad goes out the door every day into an economy, the people he was talking to go out the door every day into a morality play, of which they are the hero/victims. It's not that the median voter doesn't understand the economy -- he doesn't even see it. He sees moral deserts, villains, a narrative arc. He knows all the characters' names and backstories. And he'll sit hungry in the audience, with his hungry family, while economists are ready to create jobs just across the street, because when it comes to drama, you can't beat the classics. And with musicals, revivals always sell tickets. Reply October 13, 2010 at 12:33 PM Reb Yudel said... Why not just challenge them and say: "What's wrong with socialism?" I know what's wrong with Communism. I know what's wrong with the corporate Democratic party (and no, I'm not chipping in to help Harry Reid keep his seat). But what's wrong with Socialism? Reply October 13, 2010 at 01:15 PM postescript said... They are just frustrated and scared, and they don't know enough about economics to make rational decisions. One of the things that helps teach someone something or convince someone of something is to have several different ways of explaining it, examples, analogies, etc. and tone of voice is very important. "Rationalizing" is often not the best way. The more insistent you are, the less they believe you. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." Reply October 13, 2010 at 01:51 PM jbay said... Typically their perspective is built on dual principals of not trusting others and not being educated enough to formulate a response; especially to one so well spoken. Being left with nothing but the fear of being hood winked they turn to anyone willing to, present a argument satisfying their world view. It is silly to reject DeLong's offering of solutions, made all the worse by not offering a http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/10/somehow-i-am-now-wishing-i-had-read-more-nietszche-when-i-was-younger.html
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rational counter proposal. It is also silly not to dissect the way they think. This will inevitably lead to further polarization and economic destruction. What they see are rich politicians creating policies sold to them as a way to help them. They observe themselves worse off and see those who are bettered. They then observe bank bailouts as they lose a home. The justification given them is that it's done in their own interest. All this as they sit unemployed for 16 months. I don't disagree with DeLong's analysis but I can hardly blame them for interpreting human folly as subversive crookedness. Clearly, should a solution be possible, it must take into account the psychological aspects as well as the economic aspects of our crises. Regards, jbay Reply October 13, 2010 at 02:32 PM Former DeLong Student said... This is a great piece Professor DeLong that shows, almost comically, the lack of understanding and competence by the Tea Party. What's interesting as well is while they advocate for smaller government in terms of jobs & the economy, their social policies promote greater government intervention. Though I'm personally a proponent of big government, what makes them think that the government will stop only at social policies? You give the government power to regulate something, anything - it's not going to stop just there. All in all, everyone wants to complain but no one has any viable solutions. Reply October 13, 2010 at 02:38 PM Kyle Russell said in reply to save_the_rustbelt... If they lack the time to debate using intellect, then they shouldn't be debating. Reply October 13, 2010 at 02:38 PM mike shupp said... I suggest you tell them to build and strengthen more private-sector unions. It is, after all, a longstanding America tradition. Reply October 13, 2010 at 03:52 PM Mpwdoyle said... Just got home from work and I read this. I really, really need a glass of Grand Marnier now. Hey, look, a bottle of Grand Marnier! Reply October 13, 2010 at 04:27 PM Min said in reply to Zach... "The problem is that they aren't thinking through the logical consequences of their premises." Or maybe they have been fed falsehoods by politicians, pundits, and the media. Reply October 13, 2010 at 06:54 PM Min said in reply to a historian... "he remarkable thing, for me, was that whenever the daughter or the daughter's friend offered some piece of countervailing factual evidence (such as, deficits have consistently risen under Republican administrations) it was met with the statement: "that's liberal propaganda." http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/10/somehow-i-am-now-wishing-i-had-read-more-nietszche-when-i-was-younger.html
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This is a game described by Eric Berne in "Games People Play" called "Yes, But". It is very common. Reply October 13, 2010 at 06:59 PM Anderson said... " I really, really need a glass of Grand Marnier now." Bleah. You are drinking straight a substance that is intended to be mixed with lime juice and tequila. Reply October 13, 2010 at 07:26 PM scathew said... When all you have is a hammer, you tend to look at every problem as a nail. That in a nutshell is the issue with the Tea Party. Anyway, a well put summary on your part. Reply October 13, 2010 at 08:26 PM Bob Athay said... Welcome to the world I live in! It's especially maddening to hear those same slogans from people who are otherwise exceptionally well educated. Nothing I've experienced is quite so ironic as listening to people who worked most of their careers in defense rail against Big Government, Tax and Spend, Socialism, etc. while insisting that the Borrow and Spend policies of the Reagan & Bush administrations were OK... On second thought, Get the Government out of Medicare *is* even sillier. Maybe human evolution peaked in the late Pleistocene and we're now in a regressive phase. Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:20 PM donna said... They just do what Beck tells 'em to do. It doesn't have to make sense. Reply October 13, 2010 at 09:40 PM trotsky said... Your typical tea-partier doesn't know much economics, but they not are nuts to look at annual deficits north of $1 trillion and fear for the future. Nor are they wrong to wonder why their city cops (in California) got massive retroactive pension increases based on the dot-com bubble, which subsequently popped and left the humble middle-class taxpayer with both a drastically shrunken nest egg and higher taxes because that cop's pension is guaranteed -- in fact, that cop the city just hired's pension is guaranteed when he retires 30 years from now, never mind that we already know we can't afford it today. And meanwhile that cop's taking his pension and retiring to Idaho, while humble middle-class taxpayer's mortgage is underwater. And counterfactuals about how the worst economy in decades might have been ever worse -- sorry, they're just not persuasive. Reply October 13, 2010 at 10:20 PM Soulmatic09 said... Well, at least you weren't debating climate change with them. Or evolution. Or the Kenyan's birth certificate. Or Obama's involvement in...oh I'm sorry, I meant OSAMA's involvement in the Iraq http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/10/somehow-i-am-now-wishing-i-had-read-more-nietszche-when-i-was-younger.html
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war. Silly me, I always get them confused; they're both Arabs, you know. Or racism within the Tea Party. Or... Well, you get the idea. (Get it? Orwell? Ministry of Truth/Newspeak - "the only language in the world whose vocabulary gets smaller every year"? Yeah, OK, i really need to go to bed) Reply October 13, 2010 at 10:31 PM Matt said... There is abundant research showing that people are generally willing to harm their own well-being to punish malefactors or to enforce standards of fairness. "We're living within our means--so must the government" falls sqauarely into that rubric. "TARP bailed out connected insiders, but didn't help us"--true or not--does also. Also of note, public opinion polling back during the Great Depression was consistently in favor of lower government spending and a balanced budget. What's depressing about the exchange, though, is how thoroughly dicredited is the notion that the government has a meaningful role to play in economic life among this audience. Indeed, the working assumption seems to be that the government is simply another predatory interest group. (Thus the impulse to punish it.) One wonders why more of that animus isn't focused on Big Finace or Big Business. But it is a sign of how successful the Republican program of deligitimzing government action has been. On the core general point, I don't think you can expect most people, even fairly educated ones, to have a coherent philosophy (for want of a better word) about most public policy questions. Voting is mostly a matter of expressing attitudes, solidarity and resentments, not opinions about policy. This, again, is depressing. If my description of voting behavior is right, the way to win elections is to deliver good outcomes over time. Under our political system, even control of the Executive and Congress gives you a sorely limited ability to pass the legislation you think would do that. Reply October 13, 2010 at 10:32 PM JK said... I don't think anyone has yet said it is a good thing to have these debates. No one said it would be easy, but these are arguments that have to be won, and more people need to be having them. 'EVERYTHING YOU PROPOSE TAKES OUR HARD-EARNED MONEY, TAXES IT AWAY FROM US, AND GIVES IT TO SOMEBODY ELSE.' There is an intuition that the state does not belong to them, it does not work in their interests. The right says the problem with the state is that it works in the interest of itself and of welfare scroungers. The counter position cannot be that the state works in the interests of the working class, so we need more of it. The counter position must be that the state works in the interests of the rich ("Wall Street" but not just Wall Street). We do not need more of that. We need something different, whether it is a different state or something else altogether. Someone above mentioned private sector unions. What about co-operative, worker owned enterprises? No, I'm not convinced either. But I know "more state" is also not good enough. Yes, you can point to certain state programmes in education and welfare that have helped the working class. But fundamentally it does not belong to them. It belongs to the rich. Unless that is recognised it will be hard to sound convincing. http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/10/somehow-i-am-now-wishing-i-had-read-more-nietszche-when-i-was-younger.html
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Reply October 14, 2010 at 02:04 AM maynardGkeynes said... What Brad did not do was explain to them (or to me) is how and why each of their demands would not help them, and might actually hurt them. He only explains why they don't like his ideas. Reply October 14, 2010 at 07:37 AM Magnus said... DeLong claims men have walked on the moon! Clearly he's a witch who speaks the language of the devil: "Detrended GDP, Exchange rate depreciation, securitization" Reply October 14, 2010 at 08:24 AM NBarnes said... One of the most schadenfreude-inducing moments here is the extended whine about public sector employees and their unions. These tea partiers are the same people who have been happy voting denizens of Nixonland since the 60s and 70s. Their votes have been a big part of propelling union-busting politicians into positions of power. And now they complain that they have no power, they have no collective bargaining position, and how dare those public employees not be just as screwed as they are? Reply October 14, 2010 at 08:43 AM Min said in reply to trotsky... "And counterfactuals about how the worst economy in decades might have been ever worse -- sorry, they're just not persuasive." Right. Here is a good campaign sign: -----------------Vote for me! | | It coulda been worse. | ----------------;) Reply October 14, 2010 at 08:45 AM Jon R said... It seems to me that the key phrase in Brad's article is this one: "They were deeply concerned with the future of our country. And they were desperate to figure out how to engage in effective political action." No mention here of any desperation to THINK about these problems. They wanted to act, not think. The fact of the matter is that the problems these folks are looking at are complex....and more often than not, extremely complex. Most Americans are very short on analytical skills and problem solving skills. The typical reaction of many people to any type of problem is overly reductionist - how quickly can we name a problem so that we can fix it? We have this wonderful "can do" philosophy that leads us, way too quickly to trying to DO something - which is often the right answer to the wrong question. Into the gap steps Faux News. Repeat the talking points ad nauseum. Say something enough times so that these non-ideas become viral. Squelch any effort at intelligent, nuanced discussion of a problem. Say it loud. Put a hot face like Sarah Palin behind the nonsense - someone that guys can fantasize about as a MILF. That should just about seal the deal. Short, concise talking points, words with no real meaning - isn't that what Brad describes above?
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Is there any real surprise that Americans bought this intellectual absurdity? The medium of TV itself demands quick, short, memorable but dumb sound-bytes. We marvel at discussions on Meet The Press that last ten minutes. Americans erroneously come to the conclusion, like every TV drama on network TV, that a problem can get solved in under an hour. Americans conclude from these same snippets that Howard Dean is crazy because he screamed into the microphone, and then Chris Matthews plays it back a million times. His campaign, otherwise very successful, grinds to a halt because now he's nuts. Conversely, our national leaders get on TV and spout dumb things, and moderators feel obliged to present contrary opinions in the interest of being "fair and balanced" you know, presenting the opposite of climate change science as being as worthy of consideration as the FACTS. We have debates where candidates feel no reservations about decrying the lack of "creation science" discussions as viable alternatives to evolution in the classroom, with no mention of the fact that "creation science" is oxymoronic. Christine O' Donnell brought this up in the Delaware Senate debate when she was asked about her views on evolution, and no one challenged the underlying false premise - that teaching creationism ISN'T SCIENCE.... Speaking of real witches running for Senate, we may as well revive discussions as to whether witches are responsible for bad weather. Perhaps we should start killing cats again as tools of the devil. Is this really what we've come to??? I fear we have such a massive gap in serious thought in this country right now. We're obsessed with speed, the quick fix, the quick oil change, the outpatient/same day surgery.... I remember a conversation I had years ago with a European friend of mine, many years my senior. Over lunch and much wine we discussed how, while living in Italy, the house he lived in had a 300 year old ROOF - not the house, the ROOF was 300 years old. What do we have on this continent - anywhere - that is 300 years old? Hell, our country isn't even 300 years old...perhaps we're suffering from adolescent giantism.....we're too young a culture to know that our teenage antics are just that, and too big to realize we just put a foot on top of the family cat and killed her.... Reply October 14, 2010 at 09:25 AM Aaron Boyden said... Actually, there is a philosophical issue here, one that those of us who think we're smart rarely think about. If you know somebody is considerably smarter than you, and so could very likely trick you if they wanted to, is it really sensible to try to evaluate the merits of their arguments and use that to decide whether to believe them? Isn't that just making it easy for them to trick you? Perhaps if you're not that good at evaluating arguments and evidence it isn't completely irrational to rely on people you trust for other reasons, rather than trusting what seem to be the best arguments and evidence. Of course, I'm inclined to think that given how bad people are at figuring out who to trust, the only viable option is to try to make yourself smarter and learn to do a better job evaluating arguments and evidence, but it's an issue that strikes me as much more complex upon examination than it might seem at first glance. Reply October 14, 2010 at 11:10 AM Diana said... This is starting to vindicate Douglas Adams. Remember Zaphod Beeblebrox, President of the Galaxy, "a role that involves no power whatsoever, and merely requires the incumbent to attract attention so no one wonders who's really in charge"? http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/10/somehow-i-am-now-wishing-i-had-read-more-nietszche-when-i-was-younger.html
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in our era he'd be on Fox News daily. Reply October 14, 2010 at 11:15 AM Kenneth Almquist said... @ Aaron Boyden: Even smart people have to rely on the other people's judgments much of the time. A smart person could learn enough evolutionary biology to form an independent judgment on evolution, or enough climate science to form an independent judgment on global warming, but few people have the time or inclination to research every major policy issue, so much of the time it will come down to figuring out who to trust. Anyone who trusts Fox News is either (1) very bad at figuring out who to trust, or (2) willfully ignorant. Reply October 14, 2010 at 02:27 PM David said... I don't know, maybe you were a bit too successful with your brainwashing (contra your lament in post Failure to Brainwash) Reply October 14, 2010 at 04:04 PM G Fitch said... I think part of the problem is that most government intervention of the form you're talking about (strategic lending etc) ends up being disprportionately enjoyed by certain segments of the upper middle class - urban professionals like lawyers, management consultants, etc. Obviously there is a more general impact to stimulus spending - it's hard to spend tens of billions of dollars without causing a wave but we're in the realms of trickle down economics and related fantasies then. Once upon a time government spending may have had a faster impact - small / medium sized firms taking up orders when the Federal government loosened the budget, but I suspect that in the vast majority of industries tax dollars have steadily been concentrated in the order books of larger or more centralised firms - with more going on legal fees, IT consultancy, etc. More complex tendering processes, increased reporting requirements and evolving specialisations all act to increase the cost of doing business, and thus favour large "more professional" firms. The decline of the fortunes of the Democrats among segments of the American white working class post-Johnson tends to be attributed almost entirely to racism but this is only part of the issue. When Reagan gave speeches condemning "big government" the audience wasn't just evangies and embittered racist protestants (although this constituency was certainly represented). It was among people who are (quite rightly) mistrustful of programs which rely on (and presume) the wisdom of bureaucratic elites who feign concern for "the other America" while relentless increasing the financial distance between themselves and their alleged constituents. The Tea Parties are more or less crazy (the petty bourgeois run amok, etc) but their underlying skepticism about who government aid goes to is quite valid. If there was genuine concern about the circumstances of working class Americans then it's not difficult : double welfare payments to the poorest families. Put a structured program of training and guaranteed work placement for every American in prison (or the ones you're not pointlessly keeping alive out of spite anyway). Stop sending them to jail in the first place. Limit interest on historic credit card debt to base rate. Undertake the tens of billions of dollars in repairs needed to schools in the poorest districts. These are not complicated proposals.
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But yeah, I guess it's better to give hundreds of billions to some accountants and hope that it eventually helps the poor somehow. Reply October 15, 2010 at 09:35 AM zoica said... And non-thinking people like this insist on reproducing.... Reply October 15, 2010 at 10:50 AM AuOso said... Not sure anyone's still reading this post, but: Forget Nietszhe. Read George Lakoff's "Moral Politics." Then meet with him. He's right there on campus teaching cognitive science. Reply October 15, 2010 at 01:54 PM Russil Wvong said... I think this is an example of Keynes' comment that *ideas* are more powerful than *interests*. My suggestion would be to stick to one idea: that the government needs to balance the budget *over the course of the business cycle*. Sometimes the economy's up, sometimes it's down. When the economy is doing well, the government should run surpluses and pay down the debt. When the economy is doing badly and revenues collapse, the government runs a deficit instead of aggravating things by cutting spending (but the borrowed money should be paying for temporary spending, like infrastructure, so it can be cut off when the economy recovers). If you can get them to accept this idea, then point out that the US is in a much, much deeper recession than usual. Reply October 15, 2010 at 05:33 PM reluctantapopheniac said... Perhaps we're witnessing one of history's rhyming verses -- repetitions but for the varying tone and changing cast of each successive chorus. Lippmann-v-Dewey would represent a verse near the gentle, almost melodious end of the continuum, while Mensheviks-v-Leninists (or "conservative"-v-"rebel" Red Guard factions) would be close to the dissonant extreme, with teaparty-v-non-teaparty falling somewhere in between. I suppose there's no reason to assume that subsequent verses will shift in any particular direction, but it's getting harder (at least for me) to imagine any plausible de-escalatory paths. Presumably other variants of the red-v-expert debate is (or was, at some point) underway in at least some of the so-called "banana republics," i.e., places where there is broad consensus that facts on the ground actually resemble the key points of the canonical teaparty worldview... anyone have any sense of how our current debate compares to others where those facts are, or were, less in dispute? Reply October 15, 2010 at 05:40 PM MAD9 said... its funny, because the arguments are exactly the same here in Germany. Reply October 16, 2010 at 08:51 AM Nathanael said... OK, Brad, try this. Tell them "The only way to get you jobs is socialism. Why are you so afraid of socialism?"
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Hate to say it, these people don't deserve to live if they can't think straight. The simplest way to get them jobs is to have the government hire them, but some braindead reptile brainwashing has caused them to say "SOCIALISM" whenever you suggest that. Anyone that stupid? Well, Reply October 17, 2010 at 03:39 AM Nathanael said in reply to Russil Wvong... "I think this is an example of Keynes' comment that *ideas* are more powerful than *interests*." Keep the ideas simple. What's wrong with socialism? Socialism means jobs for EVERYONE. How else you gonna get jobs? You don't think the crooked banksters gonna give you jobs? Reply October 17, 2010 at 03:40 AM Nathanael said in reply to Jon R... "It seems to me that the key phrase in Brad's article is this one: "They were deeply concerned with the future of our country. And they were desperate to figure out how to engage in effective political action." No mention here of any desperation to THINK about these problems. They wanted to act, not think. " And yet the solution is SIMPLE. A Civilian Conservation Corps, like FDR had in the 30s, would employ LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of people with EVERY skill level like it did in the 30s. This may penetrate even the brains of Tea Partiers, there's still a respect for FDR and the New Deal left in this country even though FAUX NEWS is trying to spread lies to suppress it. Reply October 17, 2010 at 03:43 AM Mark said... Still think it's hilarious how ignorant these people are when they tell the Government to not touch Medicare or Social Security then turn around and scream they don't want any Socialism. It shows you exactly how ignorant these people are. They don't do any fact-checking for themselves. Instead they just repeat whatever it said to them on Faux News. Reply October 17, 2010 at 02:08 PM Jonas said... "They were deeply concerned with the future of our country." Really? They just told you they want a bigger paycheck by way of lower taxes and they didn't want their money going to somebody else, even if it's to pay for the governmentthe body that's supposed to be taking care of the country. Sounds more like they're deeply concerned with the future of their finances. Reply October 17, 2010 at 02:53 PM Comment below or sign in with TypePad
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Preview
First, Kill all the Pensions
economics DeLong
Me:
The Atlantic (blog) - Oct 19, 2010 She may or may not have been the first major economics blogger, depending on whether we are allowed to throw outlying variables such as Brad Delong out of ... Related Articles » « Previous Next »
Economists: Juicebox
Moral
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Paul Mafia: Krugman Ezra Klein Mark Thoma Matthew Cowen and Yglesias Tabarrok Spencer Chinn and Ackerman Hamilton Dana Brad Setser Goldstein Dan Froomkin
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Philosophers: Hilzoy and Friends Crooked Timber of Humanity Mark Kleiman and Friends Eric Rauchway and Friends John Holbo and Friends
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