Norfolk Law Magazine of the Norfolk & Norwich Law Society - www.nnls.org - Spring 2019
Huge Law Walk turnout 150 Lawyers turned out to support this year’s Law Walk as we went to press - with the younger members of the profession dominating the field. Full picture coverage in our next edition. Inside this issue, all the Countdown pictures - another evening of merriment in a challenging year!
Norfolk Law - Contents - 3
This issue...
Norfolk L Mag azin e
Our Countdown went to plan, Brexit is another matter, so our ‘post Brexit’ features will have to wait. This edition has all the usual event coverage and also includes the first response to our request to the main parties for their views on how the Conservative Manifesto Justice pledges are being met. But after the EU elections, we are not sure who the main parties are or what, if anything, anyone is doing on the Justice front as the government is embroiled in another Prime Minister selection battle!
aw
of the Norf olk & Norw ich Law Soci ety - www .nnl s.or g
- Spri ng 2019
Huge La wW
alk turnou 150 Lawy t ers turne d out to su this year ’s pport Law Walk press - wi as we we nt to th the youn ger mem of the profe bers ssion dom Full pictur e coverage inating the field. in our next Inside thi edition. s issue, all the Coun pictures tdown another ev ening of merrimen t in a chall enging ye ar!
Contents 4
President’s Report
18
Newe sponsorship for NNLS
5 Committee
18 Mediation
6
NNLS Annual Treasure Hunt
21
Care services for older people
9
More Brexit
22
Charitable bequests
10
The Lib Dem View
24
LEAP Celebrates 2,000 UK Law Firms
12
Our lawyers did Countdown!
26
Richard Oughton joins Octagon Legal
14
CPD Events
31
A life saving legacy
15
NCLS News
32
Key characteristics of highly successful Law firms
16
Legal Practice Course at UEA
34
Solving the ‘back office puzzle’
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4 - Norfolk Law - President’s Report
President’s Report It’s now early June and the year is slipping by. The temperature outside is 18⁰, slightly cooler than the last time I composed a note like this, which was in February. Hmmm. It is also the 75th anniversary of D Day, which I find very moving. 25 years ago, on the 50th anniversary, I found myself on a cross channel ferry heading back to this country on a sparkling but quite rough day. Unforgettably, travelling in the opposite direction, we saw the Royal Yacht Britannia being escorted by a number of Royal Navy vessels all plunging through the waves towards France. It’s hard to describe now but really was quite a sight. However, currently, we still seem to be headed in the opposite direction, although astute readers will be aware that Brexit hasn’t
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happened, yet and the current range of possibilities includes a hard Brexit, no Brexit at all or something in between. Whilst this plays out, I’m glad to report that the NNLS goes from strength to strength. In fact and most importantly, I’m delighted to welcome our new principal sponsor for the next 3 years, Index Property Services. I’m sure that the arrangement will be an excellent one for both parties and I would urge you to take a look at Index’s website at indexpi.co.uk/what-we-do.html to see the wide range of services they offer. Finally, as ever, I thank members and committee members in particular, for their great efforts on the Society’s behalf and hope to meet many of you at forthcoming Society events Richard Bailey President Norfolk & Norwich Law Society Director, Steeles Law Solicitors Ltd
Advertising Simon Castell / Laura Seymour Managing Editor Sue Bailey Layout Stuart Turner pp. 5-17 David Coffey pp. 18-32
Accounts Tony Kay
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Norfolk Law - Committee - 5
6 - Norfolk Law - Event Preview
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8 - Norfolk Law - Event Preview
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Norfolk Law - Brexit - 9
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10 - Norfolk Law - Articles
The view from the Liberal
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Norfolk Law - Articles - 11
Democrats
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12 - Norfolk Law - Event Review
Our Lawyers did
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Norfolk Law - Event Review - 13
Countdown!
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14 - Norfolk Law - Events
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Norfolk Law - NCLS News - 15
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16 - Norfolk Law - UEA Law School News
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Norfolk Law - Event Preview - 17
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18 - Norfolk Law - Index / Mediation
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Norfolk Law - Event Preview - 19
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22 - Norfolk Law - Event Review
Wales and Scotland are Seeing Fastest Growth in Charitable Bequests
Rob Cope
Charities in Wales and Scotland are seeing faster income growth from gifts in Wills than other parts of the UK according to a new research report published by the 200-strong charity coalition Remember A Charity.
The UK Legacy Fundraising Market 2019 summarises income from gifts in Wills to the nation’s top legacy-earning fundraising charities, exploring the impact of the recession and subsequent economic recovery. While charities across the UK have seen legacy income growth of 10% over the past decade, the smaller markets of Wales and Scotland have risen by 23% and 35% respectively. Health charities receive the largest share of donations, but the market is diversifying with many smaller and community-based organisations now being named in Wills. Overseas aid, environmental and services charities are increasing their space in the market, while those in the religious and social care fields are losing ground. Rob Cope, director of Remember A Charity, says: “Charitable bequests are often linked with the largest household name charities, but the market is growing and changing with non-profit organisations of all sizes and causes coming to the table. For many of these charities and their beneficiaries, a legacy gift can be completely transformational.” Importance of legacy giving Underlining the importance of bequests to charities across the country, the research finds that legacies now account for 28% of the UK’s voluntary donations. For the top 1,100 fundraising charities alone, this equates to over £2.2 billion of vital charitable funding. For charities such as RNLI, legacies fund 6 in 10 lifeboats and a third of Cancer Research UK’s life-saving research. Cope adds: “As awareness about legacy giving increases and the professional Will-writing community continues to make their clients aware of the option of including a gift in their Will, we’re seeing a longterm increase in the proportion of estates including a charitable gift. “There is growing appetite for people to support the good causes they care about long after they are gone. Once supporters understand that gifts in Wills don’t have to be particularly large and can fit around their wishes to look after family and friends, a charitable bequest can be a surprisingly easy and efficient way to give.” Currently, one in six probated estates include a charitable gift, but with the latest consumer tracking poll indicating that four in ten of the over 40s would like to do so, Remember A Charity believes there is significant potential for further growth. Challenges of a post-Brexit world Legacy income patterns tend to mirror the shape of the economy and reflect the number of estates going through probate. When property
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prices increase, inevitably estate and legacy values do too. While the report highlights that the 2008 recession led to a notable fall in income to charities, the market was quick to recover and growth continued in the subsequent years. Looking to the future, the coalition expressed some caution about the years ahead. With the impact of Brexit as yet unknown and a rapidly ageing population facing rising care costs, estate values may well suffer and that could have a considerable impact on the nation’s charities. Cope adds: “Charities are increasingly reliant on gifts in Wills and although the number of donors is on the rise, we can see that legacy income is being stretched across a broader marketplace. The charity sector is likely to feel that stretch all the more as we deal with the uncertain economic future of a post-Brexit world. It’s vital that charities work collaboratively with the legal sector and government to normalise legacy giving and provide a more stable basis for this vital income stream for the years ahead.”
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24 - Norfolk Law - Articles
celebrates 2000 UK law firms LEAP Legal Software, the UK’s leading provider of cloud legal software and automated forms and precedents to small and medium sized law firms, has announced a major new expansion initiative into the United States. LEAP has more than 2,000 firms and 12,000 users using its software in the UK and Republic of Ireland. PCLaw | Time Matters is a new joint venture operated by LEAP Legal Software, the world’s leading provider of cloud-based legal software to small and medium-sized law firms, and LexisNexis Legal & Professional, part of RELX and a leading global provider of information and analytics. The new company has taken over the extensive customer list of firms that use PCLaw and Time Matters in in the United States, Canada and Australasia.
Richard Hugo-Hamman, Executive Chairman, LEAP According to Richard Hugo-Hamman, Executive Chairman of LEAP and now also of PCLaw | Time Matters LLC, “We are first and foremost a legal software company. It is all that we do. We focus all our efforts on providing the highest standards of customer support, and the most innovative and useful software for lawyers and support staff. We help our clients to build great law firms. We believe that profitable and healthy law firms that ‘help people like us’ in the common areas of law such as family law, real estate, immigration, probate and the like are good for our communities. Surprisingly many small law firms don’t do well financially. It is our job to give them the tools to do more work with the same number of people and grow the profits of their firms. Our global success has been built on delivering on this promise. We will immediately start improving the customer support experience for PC Law and Time Matters users with the introduction of our state-of-the-art online support experience built on the Salesforce technology stack that LEAP has used for more than a decade. We are also very aware that the crucially important Certified Independent Consultant (CIC) network is ready for a more focussed and active program to help them better serve their clients. They play a crucially important advisory role to many law firms, and we will make sure that they have all the information they need to provide good informed advice and to help them build their businesses. We think that a strong CIC network, well supported by the JV, will be good for our thousands of customers. Another advantage that we bring to the table is that we have successfully electronically converted more than 4,000 law firms from desktop/on-
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premise software into the cloud. Our intellectual property and data transition experience around this change management means that we can help firms through this transition with minimum disruption to day to day operations and delightfully for the lawyers, when they start using LEAP all their familiar data is there for them. We are very proud to have been chosen to work with LexisNexis to move their loyal clients to the cloud in as smooth and affordable a way as possible, when they choose to.” Founded in 1992, LEAP has grown to become the first truly international provider of legal software for small to medium sized law firms. Hugo-Hamman continues: “Our approach is to leverage our core global software with software reflecting deep local knowledge in jurisdiction specific add-ons that allow LEAP to be uniquely familiar to anyone working in that jurisdiction. This means we have on the ground offices and people who will travel to see you and help you get going. We have development teams in each country who add and deliver this deep localisation. Although we are a cloud company, our business model is based on knowing our customers and the legal environment they work in better than any competitor in the world. There is no substitute for sitting in front of a customer and getting unfiltered feedback. This is how we get the information we need to build great products.” LEAP began to develop a cloud service offering during the financial crisis of 2008. After nearly five years of significant investment and product development LEAP began rolling out the cloud version of software to law firms in January 2013. LEAP has taken clients on a major journey through technology. LEAP began in 1992 on a Mac platform. Since then LEAP has migrated users from Mac to several versions of Windows and more recently to the cloud. Clients who have stayed on the journey have avoided the disruption and cost of unnecessary change LEAP has taken care of them. All LEAP data is stored in AWS in dedicated facilities around the world. Amazon Web Services is recognised as the world’s leading hosting platform. In June 2017 leading analyst firm Gartner noted that it was “most commonly chosen for strategic, organization wide adoption.” In February 2019 technology research firm Canalys listed AWS as the strong market leader for cloud infrastructure, with 32% of the market (in Q4 of 2017) and annual growth running at 46% showing a big corporate move into the cloud. In the American Bar Association’s Legal Technology Resource Center’s 2018 Legal Technology Survey Report where almost half of the responses were from sole practitioners and small firm lawyers, 55% percent of respondents said they are now using cloud computing technology. The most cited benefits of using cloud computing include accessing data from anywhere worldwide and 24/7 availability. These benefits are cited by 68% and 59% of respondents respectively. The
low cost for cloud services, stronger security, robust data backup, recovery and speed of getting up and running are also seen as major benefits of the cloud over on-premise infrastructure. Unrivalled Track Record LEAP supports more than 8,000 law firms using its software worldwide on a single cloud platform. Over 50% of these firms have undergone a successful data transfer by LEAP to transition to the cloud platform. 3,000 firms started anew with LEAP cloud and kept historical data on premise. This is a common theme, firms wanting to use the installation of LEAP as a “fresh start”, making a clean break from the past and moving forwards into the cloud with the best software available. As Mariska Lloyd, Global Transitions Manager of LEAP says, “We have the capability of moving firms from PC Law® and Time Matters to LEAP and the track record of doing so. We have never had a complaint about the accuracy of a data and document conversion from PCLaw® or Time Matters to LEAP.” Chris Stock, the newly appointed CEO of PCLaw | Time Matters (and previous CEO of LEAP US) says, “We are delighted to be working with all users of PCLaw® and Time Matters to enhance their technology, enable mobile and remote working, and make firms more secure, efficient and profitable.” About LEAP Legal Software LEAP is committed to creating and providing legal software solutions which improve the quality of service provided by law firms, resulting in better help for those in need, and more efficient and profitable law firms. LEAP provides the most advanced software solutions aimed at small to medium sized law firms, spending more than USD 12 million each year on research and development for its legal platform. About LEAP UK LEAP is a cloud-based practice management system with integrated time recording, billing and client accounting. Developed specifically for small to medium-sized law firms, LEAP’s powerful features allow fee earners and legal support staff to manage their matters more efficiently and profitably from anywhere, anytime and from any device, accessing real-time matter and client information on the move. With an investment of more than £8m each year into research and development, LEAP continually strives to deliver a product that meets the demands of its users. This ensures that law firms using the software benefit from affordable, yet highly innovative technology. LEAP simplifies a law firm’s IT infrastructure, eliminating the need for expensive servers, reducing hardware and support costs and eliminating the confusion and risk that comes with using multiple programs and databases. Currently supporting over 2000 law firms across the UK and Ireland to streamline their practices, LEAP has offices in London, Manchester, Brighton, Edinburgh, Cardiff, Belfast and Dublin.
26 - Norfolk Law - Advertorial
Richard Oughton joins Octagon Legal Proof that you do not need to go to London for specialist Counsel, comes with the news that Richard Oughton, a Chancery specialist of over 40 years’ seniority, has joined Octagon Chambers. He is returning to his roots having been born and bred in Suffolk, attending schools there, before taking law degrees at St John’s College, Cambridge and the University of Pennsylvania Law School. Consequent upon his forthcoming marriage to a retired consultant from the Norfolk and Norwich Hospital, he has moved to live in Shotesham. Having practised in Liverpool and Manchester, he is taking this opportunity to relocate his practice to Norwich. Initially he will continue to practise from Cobden House Chambers in Manchester, but the aim is to gradually move the focus eastwards.
Although his practice has encompassed most of the traditional Chancery and related commercial areas, in recent years he has concentrated upon traditional land law and all aspects of the law of succession and private client work. He is the author of the second and third editions of Tyler’s Family Provision, one of the leading works on the Inheritance (Family Provision and Dependants) Act 1975, and with two colleagues is at work on a new edition. A principal focus of the new edition will be a discussion of the decision of the Supreme Court in Ilott v Mitson and of the questions answered and unanswered by the Supreme Court. Extracts from the third edition of Tyler’s Family Provision were referred to in the Printed Cases of the parties in the appeal to the Supreme Court. In addition, the new edition will deal with the numerous statutory changes directly and indirectly affecting the 1975 Act.
He is one of the few provincial practitioners who advises extensively on non-contentious matters and drafts wills and settlements. He joined STEP soon after it was set up (sufficiently early to avoid the requirement for examinations!). When he was asked what his best achievement at the Bar has been, Richard replied his six pupils, all of whom have had successful careers at the Bar and the first of whom is already a Circuit Judge. His greatest disappointment at the Bar was that he has never appeared in the highest court in the land. He settled the appeal in the land registration case of Mallory v Cheshire two weeks before the hearing was due to commence in the House of Lords, when the Chief Land Registrar offered to pay indemnities and all costs to both parties. While the opportunity was lost to correct a blot in the jurisprudence of registered land, Richard’s client was very relieved with the compromise.
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RICHARD OUGHTON Senior Junior Chancery Barrister has joined Octagon Legal
Specialist in: • All aspects of the law of succession and trusts (and related taxation) • Land law (including commercial landlord and tenant)
Octagon Legal, 19 Colegate Norwich NR3 1BN. DX: 5249 NORWICH 1 E: clerks@octagon-legal.co.uk Tel: 01603 623 186
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Norfolk Law - Event Preview - 31
A life-saving legacy for years to come they can divert funds where they’re needed most. Our work includes delivering urgently needed goods, such as breast milk and blood, to help give someone the best possible chance at life. Our running costs total around £4,000 a month, which is used for equipment, petrol, bike maintenance and more. For every £1 raised, 96 pence is spent keeping our fleet on the road. As a local charity, we are always amazed by the support of the community – the generosity and help offered is truly overwhelming. “While always amazed at the generosity of donations, it remains a constant battle to fundraise enough. In two years’ time we will need to start replacing our current fleet of motorcycles and cars for new ones, which will cost in the region of £240,000, and so a donation left in a legacy can make a vital impact. Legacies are essential to helping us stay on the road, saving hundreds of lives for many years to come.” There are many ways to support Norfolk Blood Bikes, but for someone looking to leave a lasting tribute, a legacy might be the ideal and personal gift they’ve been looking for. This is an invaluable way of making sure the charity’s great work continues – even a small legacy can make a big difference in keeping them on the road, ultimately helping to save lives. Since 2011, Norfolk Blood Bikes have been transporting urgently required blood, plasma, platelets, samples, vaccines, breast milk and other life-saving medical items to hospitals across Norfolk and to the East Anglian Air Ambulance – whether at night, during the day, at weekends or on bank holidays.
Remember Norfolk Blood Bikes in a will. A gifted legacy to the charity of just £1,000 could buy a set of tyres for two bikes for one year, £15,000 could pay for a motorcycle whilst £20,000 could pay for a car. If your firm or any of your clients would like further information on how to leave a life-saving legacy to Norfolk Blood Bikes, please contact Keith Grisedale on 01603 261255 or corporate@ norfolkbloodbikes.org.uk.
Run by local volunteers, the service is provided completely free of charge to the NHS, to date saving the health service a total of approximately £448,000 to be redirected where it’s needed most. Working in partnership with the Human Milk Foundation, Norfolk Blood Bikes are currently working to open a regional milk bank hub in a Norfolk hospital for the benefit of sick or premature babies and mothers unable to breastfeed. At present, Norfolk Blood Bikes have a fleet of 10 motorcycles and four cars, operating mainly on dedicated and liveried motorbikes to ensure the fastest delivery of goods to hospitals. So far, they have completed over 6,400 life-saving callouts, with April 2019 seeing 278 boxes of blood products transported, 242 volunteers on duty and 176 trips completed. Participating in a variety of collection days and events throughout the year, including the ever-popular Run Norwich and Tour de Broads, Norfolk Blood Bikes actively look for and accept sponsors to help them raise much-needed funds. Every penny raised matters – a collection at Tesco in Aylsham on Sunday 19 May raised an incredible £644.06, equivalent to 64 days’ worth of fuel for one blood bike! Whether a volunteer rider, driver or controller, or simply a regular donator or sponsor, each person involved in keeping Norfolk Blood Bikes on the road plays an important role in saving lives. Without these volunteers and donations, Norfolk Blood Bikes would not be able to continue providing its incredible service to the local community. Keith Grisedale, the treasurer from Norfolk Blood Bikes, said: “Norfolk Blood Bikes exist to provide free and vital support to the NHS so
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32 - Norfolk Law - Advertorial
Key characteristics of highly successful Law firms
Selecting a leader for the firm All too often the Managing Partner is appointed from within the partnership and the individual endeavours to combine their client work with managing the firm, being reluctant to give up their clients as the Managing Partner’s role is usually a fixed term. There is a bigger problem with this practice in that partners in professional firms are not necessarily effective leaders, tending to assume that as they advise clients on business matters they have the necessary traits to lead their own practices. The most successful practices have a leader who was recruited externally and devotes most, if not all, their time to management and leadership. The best place to work Not necessarily the best paying employer nor the “nicest” place to work. The most successful firms are those that have a culture of developing their team members, recruit at all levels based on potential and personality and set clear goals as to what is required. Poor performance is dealt with and good performance is recognised. The culture is high performing whilst fun and the importance of mental health is recognised. Business strategy and differentiation Every law firm, whatever the size, must have a clear business proposition and market and, once agreed, there must be no distractions. Consistency of message and behaviours is key. The brand values of the firm and its partners must be clear to both the team and the external market. Putting clients first Successful firms are those that set measurable client expectations as to the service they offer and meet and exceed expectations. Great client service is a key differentiator, moving away from price, but it must be measured by regular client surveys.
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Clients belong to the Firm and not the Lawyer To achieve this partner rewards should be based upon client satisfaction, quality of work and development of the team and firm rather than chargeable hours. Embrace technology It will improve client service, client relationships and business development. Substantial amounts of time are spent on Information Technology but, all too often, the technology does not deliver the expected results. Contribution to the local community Lawyers, teams and clients are enthused and engaged by the opportunity to work together for a greater cause whether this be a charity or the local community. Embracing the wider cause rather than the Managing Partner’s “pet” charity. Embrace your Alumni Partners and staff who leave the firm should not be shunned but rather embraced as they can be the greatest supporters and referrers of work. In conclusion, the successful firm must encompass all the above and will need to recognize these organisational traits must become part of the firm’s DNA. By Fiona Hotston Moore Partner, Ensors Chartered Accountants
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Solving the back office puzzle By Julian Bryan, Managing Director, Quill True professional ‘cradle to grave’ solutions are difficult to find. It’s rare that suppliers to the legal sector offer everything needed in a modern-day law firm’s back office – that’s software to manage accounts, matters and documents, and outsourced services to take over core administration functions. At Quill, however, that’s exactly what we do – provide a single platform that combines the applications and outsourced support required to operate a high-performing legal business. You only have to look at our website’s home page to meet the entire series of software and services available from Quill. Users can pick and choose from: Interactive – case management, legal accounts and document management software with in-built risk management functionality; Pinpoint – outsourced legal cashiering service using Interactive; Payroll – outsourced payroll and pension management service; Type – outsourced typing service delivered in association with Document Direct; Precision – outsourced legal cashiering service on any software; and Bookkeeping – outsourced bookkeeping service for all sectors. But before diving into more detail about our software and services, we’d like you to join us on a mini history tour of Quill in order to show you how this full service provision has come about. You see, we actually first started out in business way back in 1978 – over 40 years ago. Right from these early days, our systems were being designed to help practices avoid unnecessary repetitive paperwork tasks for which the law is renowned.
you’ll see how our clients wax lyrical about our personable, long-serving employees who are ambassadors for Quill; ethical stance evidenced by multiple accreditations and charitable giving; technologically advanced software that’s won awards; and catalogue of outsourced services which allow them to concentrate on their business-critical responsibilities without distraction. Clients repeatedly tell us that, simply by choosing Quill as their principal business partner, they’re able to become “digital by default”, “compliant to the letter of the CLC Accounts Code”, “free to do what I do”, “a successful, profit-making firm”, “focused on matter management and business development”, “revolutionised”, “100% assured of regulatory compliance”, “more economical and productive [with] use of resources – both human and material”, “able to work flexibly when out of the office”, “committed to the cloud concept” (note: their words, not ours!) and much more besides. Nick Timmings, Partner at Petersfields LLP, perfectly sums up what clients think about Quill: “By relying on Quill for all our main software and service needs, we have one monthly payment, one point of contact and one primary store of our electronic files. It’s so convenient and so much easier to run our business in this totally integrated way”. Allan Hunt, Senior Partner at MPP Solicitors, expresses similar sentiments: “[With] Quill we have trusted relationships. [We use] Payroll as a bolt on to Quill’s Pinpoint service and Interactive software which we already subscribe to. With Quill firmly behind us, our back office operates smoothly and integrates seamlessly.”
In the intervening 40-plus years, the legal industry remains our absolute focus, our technology has developed to the current complete cloud-based practice management system it is today, and our offerings have been extended to also include outsourced cashiering, payroll and typing services. 1978 to 2019 has been a truly remarkable journey.
By utilising our extensive time-saving, efficiency-enhancing, costreducing, security-boosting, compliance-assured products, an ever-growing list of benefits are achieved. Through heavy investment in R&D, we ensure this is the case. Our ongoing software and service development is a future-proofing promise that, whatever changes and challenges are faced by the legal profession, Quill’s got every client’s back.
To quote some statistics from the present day: our Interactive software has earned over 7,000 current users; our Pinpoint division posts over 2 million transactions every year; our Payroll team processes over 100,000 payslips annually and last year transferred over £54 million in salaries as an accredited BACS bureau; every other department just keeps growing.
We know that not all firms are the same. Each has differing demands which are best overcome with a differing mixture of software and services. It’s our role to ascertain what this is, thereby providing the proper tools to take control of processes and optimise performance, both now and into the future. We find nothing more satisfying than empowering law firms to do just that.
Going back to why Quill’s so unique, our lengthy heritage, privately owned status and one-stop-shop portfolio really set us apart from our competitors. Few of our contemporaries can boast a comparable expansive background. Fewer still can make claims about independent ownership. And even fewer can proffer a total back office product range.
To discover more about Quill, please visit www.quill.co.uk, email info@quill.co.uk or call 0161 236 2910.
Moving on to our clients, many of our users have been with us from the very beginning. Their continued loyalty speaks volumes about the close relationships we’ve formed together over a period of four decades and the quality of our various solutions which they use on a day-to-day basis. Browse through our multiplying number of case studies online and
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Julian Bryan joined Quill as Managing Director in 2012 and is also the Chair of the Legal Software Suppliers Association. Quill has been a leading provider of legal accounting and case management software, and the UK’s largest supplier of outsourced legal cashiering services, to the legal professional for over 40 years.