22 minute read
Education Choices Podcast Interview with Marvyn Harrison
Inclusion and Diversity/A Father’s Perspective
EDUCATION CHOICES PODCAST INTERVIEW WITH
Marvyn Harrison
Marvyn Harrison, founder of Dope Black Dads and BELOVD, talks about his experience as a father and his work as a diversity and inclusion champion
Dope Black Dads started as a closed WhatsApp group between a handful of fathers in 2018 and has grown across social media and the web, hosting live events (with a Webby Award-winning podcast) and has now become a series of communities. There are more than 250,000 members across the UK, US and South Africa. This is an incredible achievement!
What inspired you to set up Dope Black Dads?
The inspiration for starting was really being challenged by the idea of male parenting. Parenting is probably the only place which is heavily female normative and so the male perspective is relatively unknown and untapped in terms of what kind of things you can do as a parent. I’ve had some terrible experiences going to baby groups, dealing with the NHS at times or medical professionals, where I’m almost ignored and erased. I always wanted to be this amazing father.
There have been a lot of fear driven boundaries historically, but I wanted to have this really beautiful relationship with my children, so when I had my second child, and I felt I was finding it difficult to connect with her, it really, really impacted me. So, I just wanted to talk to other dads about it really. I think that being Black fathers, knowing the historic and cultural pressures as well as the fatherhood stuff really, really mattered. We just started having really important conversations that I had never had before, even with people who I had known for many years. We had this really beautiful beginning.
Following this, we then told our stories of our experiences, openly acknowledging the challenges we have in parenting. What that’s then created has meant that more dads are talking about this thing which we are all going through around the world, every man has the possibility of being a dad, and you have to understand it before you start it, and if you have already started a family you want to know how to keep your relationships with your children pure and supportive.
How did it begin?
The first thing was when we moved from a Whatsapp group of 33 people to a Podcast. We were discussing things that even I didn’t understand and nobody else understood. As a result, we wanted to talk about these topics at length. We created the Podcast quite early on after about 3 months. Essentially, it was just a conversation, there was no fancy music with transitions it was more like:
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Inclusion and Diversity/A Father’s Perspective
“Hey, we’re here! This is the Podcast. What’s going on today?”
And we would start discussing these themes.
The Podcast being picked up by The Guardian was the first big thing, and that happened in January 2019. By April of that year, we had our show on BBC Sounds and One Extra. From there we haven’t looked back, we grow every year with a new edition of how we’re touching people. For me, I think, telling the stories of Black men through fatherhood is absolutely paramount and we try to honour that as much as possible.
What do you think is the biggest misconception society has made about Black dads?
It’s funny, I am working on my adult book at the minute and one of the themes which keeps occurring is absenteeism. Black fathers are equally absent as any other race in the country, there are no particular adverse stats. I think that what happens is because of the size of our population, when you transfer that, I would say that absentee fathers can be seen as an epidemic anyway, and when you put it into a particular culture, with other pressures, it is then magnified as a huge, huge challenge. This is one symptom of many things as to why that happens for men. I think that we spoke about it very early on: how parenting can be very female normative, that’s hugely problematic. Especially if the fathers don’t feel that they can bring their full self.
I think that the confidence in parenting for dads is low. It’s not a place where they feel powerful: it’s a place where they’re constantly second guessing themselves; there is a slight imposter syndrome. For those who do feel powerful in it, please do share all your secrets. However, for many of us there is this feeling of doubt when dealing with
your children, helping them on your own, going on holiday by yourself, how much to hug them. Should I kiss them? Can my daughter wear nail varnish? Can my son wear a dress? How do I approach all these things that are happening, what’s the appropriate level? Where’s the boundaries? Discipline? All those things which can come up... But when you’re a man it can have a different texture to it than when you’re the mother.
You have written a book (due to be released in June 2022): Dope Black Dads with two leading publishing houses and you state: “This one is for the adults and specifically our families who want to understand us more and to love us better.” Can you tell me more about the book and possibly explain what you mean by this?
I think that what is really interesting is that our platforms are followed by 65% women, so the men are in our spaces, they know what we’re talking about, so they don’t follow it in the same way, they are a part of it, they are it. Whereas, for the women, they get a chance to see their partner’s perspective, they get to learn what he is thinking and feeling that he perhaps hasn’t learnt to express to you yet. You get to be introduced into the deeper psyche of men. I think that women really, really care about how their partners are. The reason why men don’t go and get health check-ups, what is that all about? How to approach it, why that’s important. It’s usually the people that love us who show up for us the most. As men, we don’t show up for ourselves that much. If you’re an active
and present loving father, your whole mission is dedicated to supporting your family. That’s it. You abandon yourself every day. One side of the conversation is that women are not paid enough, which is true and we need to fix that. The other side of it is that men dedicate their whole purpose to making money and being useful in that way. If that purpose is taken away from them, whether through their own means or not, it devastates a lot of their meaning. Personally, I would rather have more of a feminine balance in terms of being closer to my children and then going to work, than going to make money, but that’s my only meaning and I have no deeper connection with my children or my wife, friends and family, as all I’m measured on is my capitalism. That doesn’t work for me. I think that this has happened to many men and I think that that’s why you see things like suicide rates as being significantly higher in men. I think it’s something like 75% of all suicides are men, it all adds up to the same unworkable list of challenges that are unique to us.
Can you tell me what other key areas the book covers?
The key ideas which I look at are: masculinity - what that actually means; when to know that you’re ready to have children; your finances; your mental or physical health; LGBTQIA+ and fatherhood (and that’s talking about it from the perspective of people who have been raised as LGBTQIA+ people). I got a couple of fathers that I knew to talk about that experience, of both what it is like as a parent and what it is like to be parented, as a part of this community. I have also explored what it is like to be a woman, and how we protect women as a community, and what we should be doing, I dedicated a whole chapter to that whole conversation, where women talk about their experiences of not being protected by men, and also of the men that have protected them, and how important and impactful that is. From a dad’s perspective, what we want to try to do is to identify things like: should I be in a relationship? What sort of a relationship structure should I be in? Am I ready to have children? What does that look like? What types of masculinity am I engaging with? What actually is ‘masculinity’? I look at things like co-parenting and cohabiting as an art form of that whole thing. I also look at mental and physical health, money, finances, economic chances… All of those things are all connected to the safety of your family, what does ‘family’ even mean? What happens when you have a blended family? When you divorce is that the end of your family? How do you redesign your family when separation kicks in? These are real questions that are moral challenges. We try to have an answering view on all of them.
You have also written a children’s book: I Love Me! (due to be released in May 2022), so you’re not only reaching out to adults, but also children. You state that this is a very personal project and that you are trying to address mental resilience and self-love, as you also do with your own children, and to support them in a time when being Black can potentially create challenges that other children wouldn’t have to consider, and to help them so that if they do encounter any negatives, they are not internalised. Is this based on your personal experiences growing up?
It is, and I had one of those superhero mothers that covered most bases, and she had enough lines to cover all the things that were happening. There is survival coaching and then there’s the growth stage. How do you get people to understand that they are capable of doing incredible things as they are? Most of the time people believe that there is a hidden room where greatness lives, and they don’t get that it’s more a case of having faith in who you are and going forward with it, stop apologising, stop being small.
With my children I create mock scenarios where I say to them:
“If someone says to you that they don’t like you [ I’ll push my daughter to re-enact the scene and say: “I don’t like you!”] What would you say?” At first, she’ll be like: “I don’t like you either!” I’ll say: “Well, that’s not very accurate, and you may like them. So why don’t you say: ‘I love me, I like me.’”
TURN TO P28 to read about LGBTQ+ author, Simon James Green, and his new book
Inclusion and Diversity/A Father’s Perspective
Now, when I do it (I test her every couple of days) and I say: “I don’t like you” and she looks at me and goes:
“Oh! Yeah! But I like me!”
We call it ‘mirror talk’ in my family. If they are walking along a wall and they’re scared to jump down, when they jump and we go home, we say: “I am brave.” We tell our kids to shout out: “I am brave!” and then they jump down. This method really does land and work with them. Kids are incredible sponges and this book teaches all parents how to do it. It also works for all ages as well, it’s brilliant. What’s ironic, is parents will start doing it, and then at night they will feel good, they’ll be like: “Oh, I feel good about myself, I feel good about saying that.” I think it’s a great gateway for both parents and children as well.
How can we educate children from all different backgrounds to be more inclusive in their thinking?
I think that the number one thing is addressing the TV, the toys, the dolls, the books that you are buying your children. Often there is a real Eurocentric view on the types of toys that you get. We always buy these things, dolls, for example, we always buy them, ironically, to replicate our children. Whereas, it’s way more powerful to get them to represent other people. It’s the same with boys and dolls, you give them to them to say: “Play doctor, play fireman, play teacher, play policeman.” Play any game with a role in society that is positive, and use the dolls as a guinea pig. It’s way safer than using your younger siblings, so go ahead and do it. I think that when we frame it in a healthy way, it’s really, really easy to adopt. The number one thing I think that we should all be doing is, if you’re putting up a YouTube video for a dance tutorial, question: Why am I showing them this one? For example, why don’t I try to show a woman instead of a man. I often do this with my son, who has just started using the language that: “Boys are better than girls.”
I know where that comes from, he’s competitive, he’s like: “We’re better!” But I say: “No, no, no. This is not how it is. This is what women can do; they’re amazing!”
So, I try to make all of his main influences of things, like ‘skill’, be women. As a result, he started to look at things differently, seeing the many roles that they can play. This is something which we all have got to take a proactive stance on.
In the Summer 2021, you and Jess Mally started BELOVD Agency, which is a Diversity Equality Inclusion partnership that speaks on behalf of all intersections of humanity, or what you call your “pillars of intersectionality”, in order to improve their futures.
How are you working through BELOVD to support this? What are your main aims?
One of the key things that I identified when we were doing educational stuff with Dope Black Dads, (we were going into schools and workplaces. It was loads of fun, we’d go and do a panel about something and everyone would clap and think, “This is great fun!”), however, I felt that there was no way to support structural change. What it meant was that it didn’t have any long-lasting legacy: I wanted to ensure that we really have a pathway for people in the workplace. For me, the work place is the number one place where you can really reach people. No matter who you are and what you do, you have to turn up with a small part of yourself being in the best part of yourself.
We work with organisations to collect data, educate the whole team, change the recruitment practices, gather insights and look at all the outputs which you have as a business. If you think about Tesco, they have an incredible supply chain. They are probably making nearly a billion a week in turnover: if they just started to supply five brands that were women-owned or owned by different minorities, you change someone’s generational work. You change someone’s life on the back of that one act, that one decision to put those brands in. I think that this is something which we are asking companies to do now. To be proactive in change, as we can’t keep having this lack of equity. Our job is to be your partner, and hold your hand in doing so. We are working with many incredible businesses and we feel privileged to be able to do so.
So you’re going in and offering advice on how these businesses can become more diverse and inclusive in their collaboration and work teams?
Exactly, and it’s not just about having people that look different. It’s about having people from a different class, background, gender, ethnicity, LGBTQIA+, race, religion. This helps to create an environment that is balanced, inclusive and a place where you can get the best work done. If you have people from a different background, they will add flavours that you just can’t get on your own. People that can tell the stories of these new communities which are emerging, rather than retelling the same story. There is only so many times a white male can save the world. I watched Avengers the other day and it was making my eyes itch. I was like: “How many white, male superheroes can there be?”
I thought it was funny how in the last Avengers film they had this really powerful scene where the males take over the thing that they’re trying to protect, and they’re the ones that get things to the next stage. I think it’s really nice to see the female characters centralised in such a way, as those moments say, “We see you!”, and those moments need to be built upon. Black Panther is a moment and we need to build on that. We need more black superheroes too. Every time the world is ending in the US, it’s ending in Africa too. Just set it there.
Recently you were awarded the ‘Influencer of the Year Award’ in the Black British Business Awards. How did this make you feel after so much hard work?
My mission is mainly focused on change. When I founded BELOVD, and I was in BELOVD, I was so excited as I knew that I could go to any organisation and run this infrastructure and strategy and that it would work. We’ve been able to make that change. At first I didn’t make much of this and then people were like, but you do have to celebrate yourself in addition to doing the work. I’m becoming more and more connected to the idea of being celebrated or honoured in any way. It feels really nice. It feels nice to be seen.
In our Education Choices podcast interview with Dr Sandie Okoro, General Counsel at World Bank, but she has also acted as a long time as a champion for diversity and inclusion, she discussed the use of language and that African Art was often referred to as ‘Primitive’ whereas Egyptian Art was ‘Ancient’ – do you still think that language and terminology we use still remains an issue?
I think that it does because there are a lot of people who are determined not to use the correct language for real people. I think that it becomes a problem when certain words are being misused. So, words like ‘wokism’ being used is deeply offensive as ‘woke’ is about Blackness: being aware of the things that we fund, the places where we’re shopping, which directly affect us. I don’t want to spend my money at Chiquelle when they don’t support LGBTQIA+. I don’t want to shop there. It’s not a hypersensitive mission to control everybody. Why would you pay for something, and make billionaires out of people who literally don’t respect that you live and exist as a real person. I think that that is a really important notion which everyone should be paying attention to. It has
TURN TO P31 to read about Sarah Asuquo’s new book Shine celebrating diversity
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Inclusion and Diversity/A Father’s Perspective
largely happened as most companies now have a purpose-driven approach to them. Even companies that shouldn’t really have one have tried to develop one, whether it’s clean water initiatives or plastic campaigns. They’re trying to make sure that they have a meaning. I think that it is fundamentally important. Language really does matter. It defines so much. Words become your actions, become your thoughts, become your feelings. They’re all interconnected. So when you say things, even if it’s flippantly, like: “Oh, you’re being a snowflake!’’ All of those things have an impact and can leave a negative energy in the world.
I also think that it’s important to explore the way in which Blackness is represented in all walks of life. Things like black sheep and Black Wednesday, all these terms that are used with Blackness to connote negative things, for me, are unworkable. They need to be reworded and they do have an impact on me. When we then say, a ‘Black person’, there is no way that you can disconnect a Black person from all those black things, which we use as a default negative.
You took part in many discussions and forums in October for Black History Month – how is this helping to improve racial equality and awareness?
I think that Black History Month is incredible because I think that it is a great way to create a milestone. I think some people see it as a performative time where everyone suddenly pretends that they care about Black people all year round. You should care about Black things and people all year round. But what we also need, in addition, is a marker in the calendar to think:
“How are we improving year on year?”
To hear about David Harewood’s book Maybe I Don’t Belong Here go to the podcast
What would be the fundamental piece of advice you would give to schools/ companies/ institutions in order to combat systemic racism and drive social and cultural change from within?
We need to actually talk about some of the historic events that have happened accurately. There is this real desire to hold onto the narratives that serve the white Eurocentric view that they saved and civilised the world, industrialised the world all by themselves. Even the concept of Egypt, the timing of the pyramids coincided with it being predominantly Black, we have never been taught properly. We need to learn about the Moors and what they did in Europe and how dominant they were. Potentially, there are some who don’t wish to empower these sorts of people, which is why they prevent the truth from coming out. We’re not asking for favourable narratives, we just want the truth. We just want to be able to tell our kids about what’s actually happened. We weren’t slaves, we were enslaved. It’s completely different framing. Somebody did it, you know? And people think like, it’s nothing to do with us, but if it’s nothing to do with you, why would you not heal it? Why would you not, look at ways to move forward. It’s connected to something bigger. Wherever any teacher can, decolonising your education, and de-centering on white males, on the reason that everything has happened in a positive sense. Who else played the roles of minorities in the First and
Second World Wars? It always gets overlooked.
I think that the truth is empowering, it allows us to prevent it from happening again, and it also means that people are freed from this idea of themselves. We can have an incredible economy if we actually made it fairer. An incredible economy. There is so much talent that isn’t heard of, stories that haven’t been told, opportunities that haven’t been invested in, all because of these things. I think that it is really important that we start shifting.
You have obviously become such a profound and leading figure in changing and challenging stereotypical male and female
Black narratives, but is there anything that you are particularly proud of?
To be honest, I think we genuinely help people’s lives. I think we put money in people’s pockets, we help them emotionally, we introduce them into therapy. We have talked about many different topics which people haven’t heard directly from a Black member before. We’ve stood up for marginalised groups at every level of society.
We’ve helped to normalise LGBTQIA+ dads. You know, if you’re a queer father, Dope Black Dads is no different. We make all of these things centred in the conversation. We heavily normalise it. I can’t Pointe see it any other way, that’s my truth. I’m really proud of my ability to connect with these people and to share space with them. To hear and share their stories, to add any value to an existence whatsoever. But there is a lot more work to do. It will just be a life-long work. I don’t think it will end. I think I’ll be eighty, with a stick in my hand, waving it at some sort of building that’s oppressing people. It just is a part of my DNA, I’ve learned to accept that. I just need to make sure that I look after myself. Whenever I have the power, I will always speak of the things that move me.
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SPECIAL THANKS TO MARVYN
HARRISON for giving up his time to speak to us about fatherhood, his work and role as a diversity and inclusion champion. www. dopeblack.org/ dopeblackdads
DOPE BLACK DADS
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