52 minute read
Dana Gillespie
Me and Mr. Jones
Interview by Kevin Burke.
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Everybody’s life is an adventure, some though live that adventure to a remarkable degree. One such person who has lived and is still living a remarkable life is the singer-songwriter Dana Gillespie. This is a lady who has lived, loved and carved her own way through the hedonism of rock and roll. She has now put her story down on paper, and released a book called ‘Weren’t Born A Man’ (Hawksmoor Publishing), and it is an exceptional read. For fans of music, and the decades that defined it, the autobiography is essential. The tales of creativity, liaisons, and her journey are all true, and that is the inevitable honesty she illuminates.
Starting her career as a folk singer in the mid-sixties, Dana worked with the greats of the music establishment, from Jimmy Page and John Paul Jones, to Elton John and Donovan. But it was her meeting with one Davy Jones before he morphed into Bowie that brought her into the forefront of rock stardom. Along the way, Dana appeared in musicals such as ‘Jesus Christ Superstar’ (Mary Magdalene) and ‘Tommy’ (Acid Queen), fitting in a string of movie roles to broaden her creative drive, such as the ‘78 Dudley Moore / Peter Cook spoof ‘The Hound of the Baskervilles’. Through all of this, a steady pulse of positive energy has become ingrained in her every career move.
Now in 2020, Dana Gillespie remains as essential as ever. With a catalogue of over sixty albums to her name, along with being crowned the finest Blues singer to emerge from the UK, it was only a matter of time before she invested time in telling it like it happened in a printed format. ‘Weren’t Born A Man’ is both the story of, and a connection to, a bygone time. A book that is crammed with humour, and above all else the very human essence, and views of this Blues singer. Dana Gillespie fearlessly lays out her life, in her own words, her gift as a storyteller is exceptional, and speaking to her brings both an era and those legends to life.
When did you decide to write down your story, and was it something that you toyed with for a long time?
Well, I started scribbling up some stories about eight years ago, because
through all the years of traveling in the group buses and you know, wherever, I’ve always told stories because I’ve been around so long, I’ve got stories about lots of people. Everyone said ‘You must put these down and put them into a book’. I did get it into one format and I called it ‘I Rest My Case’, because that was the title of an album [2011] I just released at that time on Ace Records. I didn’t instantly find a publisher. I went to a couple of people who said ‘Yeah, we really like it, we know you’ll get a deal but this isn’t the right subject for us”. Fair enough, and then I stumbled upon Hawksmoor [Publishing]. So it’s taking a while, and then there was all the practical things like getting the photographs and the right running order and even my stories in the right chronological order. For that I took on a co-author [David Shasha], as he should be called, without whom perhaps I would’ve never finished the book. I mean, I had finished it, but it was a bit all over the place. So he just kind of pulled it together, and this is how he helped me.
Did it stir emotions for you looking back over your life and putting into a format for the public to read?
No, I’m just aware that my memory is not so brilliant. I don’t mind dragging out any old stories, and a lot of people have said there’s nowhere in the book where I’m nasty about anyone [true]. Well, I’m not nasty about anyone because I’m never nasty about anybody anyway, I’ve got a very sunny attitude to life. So there was no problem going back down memory lane. I miss some people now, but I’m realistic enough to know that nothing lasts forever, and the only thing that’s constant is change. It was a case of thinking ‘what the hell can I remember? Mercifully, I’ve got a press cutting box from 1964, with lots of these press cutting books. I was able to work out when I was and where, and I was astounded by all the reviewers always used to, in the old days, remark upon my bust size. I mean, you couldn’t get away with stuff like that now but you know the sixties and the seventies were a bit like that. Times have changed.
Your parents did not only bring you into this world, but they gave you space, and I guess allowed you the freedom to grow as an individual?
I didn’t have restrictions, which was fantastic. I was very, very lucky. I sometimes feel that we choose our parents, that sounds a bit bonkers that way round. But I couldn’t have asked for better parents, because when you follow a dream, and for me music was my master, and has always been my master. I knew from maybe eleven, and I started writing my first composition, they never once stopped me from going out and pursuing my passion, even though it might have got sidetracked a bit like landing up in the Marquee Club at fourteen and then of course meeting Bowie. But all of these things were great life experiences. I don’t hold to people that complain that he fiddled about with me when I was 15 and my life has been ruined. That never happened to me. My life has never been ruined by the mad adventures I’ve had because I learnt from them and I had such a great time. My parents were integral to that plus my father was a very intelligent man and would hand me books that people of thirteen were not normally reading, and my mother was gracious and kind, and loving. I’ve gotten some wonderful traits - my angelic traits, I get from my Mother and if I’ve gotten any devilish traits, I got them from my Father. I think I got a nice juxtaposition of the two.
You came across David Bowie, in the early sixties, I guess due to a hairbrush?
[Laughs] I don’t think it was due to a hairbrush, but there was a hairbrush in there. I was standing at the back of the Marquee Club, I think it was 1964. He was the support act to a really great band called Gary Farr and the T-Bones. I always used to go and watch them and yeah after the gig I was standing at the back of the Marquee brushing my nearly waist length hair, with a few peroxide blonde streaks. He came up behind me, took the hairbrush out of my hand, and said ‘Can I come home with you tonight?’; to which I said
‘Yes’, as one does.
You developed a lasting friendship with David Bowie. Do you feel you influenced each other musically?
Actually, not musically. His music has never been my type, and my music was never his type. I think what was good was we were friends at the time. I used to play him my songs, and he played me his songs. But nobody was judging, I think it was just to see how we were getting on. He taught me the first chords on the guitar, and his style of music was never my style, even his style of writing was never my style and it’s always important to have your own style. But apart from when I sang at the John Peel Show with him, when he wrote the ‘Andy Warhol’ [‘Hunky Dory’, 1971] song for me, that was really the only time that I was involved with his music. Although we were both signed, well I was signed to Decca in those days, and he was signed to a subsidiary of Decca called Deram in 1965. But we always just kind of kept it mates all the way through. I mean, we were a little bit more than mates occasionally, but through it all we were always friends, best friends. That carried on until he left for America, which was full-time America in ‘75 I think. I’ve never been a big America lover. I don’t even like hamburgers. So I’m quite happy to stay in Europe. I love Europe.
There are similarities to your methods such as you both used twelve-string guitars. I also believe you were the first audience to ‘Space Oddity’ (‘David Bowie’, 1969)?
He was staying round the corner from me in those days, and he rang up and said “I’ve just written this song like right now, I just finished it. I’m coming over right now”. So he came round the corner, and he was there within half an hour of finishing that song. I got to sit and listen to ‘Space Oddity’, which is pretty cool. But of course in those days nobody thought it was going to be kind of iconic [song] which it turned into. It was riding along on the right zeitgeist way, because you know, there had just
been somebody on the moon. Bowie and I used to watch all these kinds of weird things on television whenever there was, I don’t know, a Ken Russell film or something to do with something unusual. He’d run round to my place, and we’d watch it, of course in those days it was all black and white. He just happened to hit on the right timing with that song, but then he was completely not on the right timing before with ‘The Laughing Gnome’ [1967]. What you have to remember is that there were some kind of clangers he made. For everyone, myself included, [we] make some things that are a bit goofy at the time, but that’s how you learn to move onwards and upwards.
Dana continued:
I used to see him when he finally got the ‘Diamond Dogs’ [1974] shows together, this must have been 1974. So I was there, and he used to do ‘Space Oddity’ and it was lovely when it was in the middle of the ‘Diamond Dogs’ Tour. He would come out in a silver capsule that would go out on an electronic arm over the front bits of the audience. When I watched it with Angie [Bowie], when it came to that line ‘Tell my wife I love her very much’, she grabbed my hand. It was really moving stuff actually. He was an unusual writer, a very unusual songwriter, and we were both very keen on being songwriters first, but in order to get your songs across you have to be able to sing them and in order to sing them, you got to be able to turn up at a publishers of ice with an instrument. So the guitar would be the thing and if you’re not the greatest guitarist in the world, six strings don’t make a big enough sound. So that’s why we both played twelve strings.
One of the many reasons your book is important, and indeed your story is because of the characters involved, one of whom is Tony DeFries. Do you feel he’s written out of the history of David Bowie to a certain extent?
He was such an important component in making Bowie famous. I’ll never know exactly why Bowie himself
didn’t want DeFries mentioned, so much so that he was banned. The name DeFries was banned for anyone interviewing him or doing films about him subsequently, especially in that BBC one called ‘Finding Fame’ [2019]. The director had said what Bowie had said, that they were not allowed to put in anything to do with DeFries. I will never understand why. I mean, nobody could have made it without the way that he had pushed Bowie, because he spent thousands and thousands. Bowie was paraded around America as if he was a ‘megastar’ before he was, and this took money. It costs quite a bit of money to make three albums before you even have a hit and in great studios and with great musicians. This is a mega investment and DeFries masterminded everything. He ran this company Mainman, which was very influential in the mid-seventies. Mainman was in Park Avenue in New York, and these of offices were swanky and plush, and we all had limousines 24/7 and stayed in five star plus hotels for weeks and weeks. All of this cost money and DeFries really did maneuver; it’s like an army planned that kind of maneuvering. He planned David’s career, but it worked because David had the talent to go with it as well. Yeah, I think you could try and set up a situation like that, but if the artist themselves aren’t quite right, it’s not going to work.
Your two albums ‘Weren’t Born A Man’ (1973) and ‘Ain’t Gonna Play No Second Fiddle’ (1974) are exceptional pieces of work. Overall, did you enjoy the experience of Mainman?
Who wouldn’t? I mean, Bowie and I both were suddenly given carte blanche to run amok and have fun. Choose the musicians that you really wanted to work with. I mean that was a complete joy and having everything taken care of. I’ve always had great high respect for these legal minds that step into your life and go ‘There, there, let me take care of that for you’. I mean, if you’re a musician and you just want to write songs, then that’s music to your ears and DeFries always just wanted us to
create and write songs. I loved making those two albums. I had a great time on both of them.
Your most famous song of that time was ‘Andy Warhol’. What was your view of that song?
I’ve never known why he gave that song to me or why. He has publicly said he wrote it for me. Maybe he did, but I’ve always publicly said that I can’t think of anything worse than having an Andy Warhol can of soup on the wall ... I’d rather look at anything else. But he had a kind of style you know, and Bowie himself was quite impressed with the New York scene, much more than I was, so he was impressed with Andy Warhol. So he said he wrote the song for me, I’ve always thought the words are weird but then he writes very abstract, and I usually write emotional, so we always approached things differently. I’m very honored that he wrote the song for me. At first, I was in the studio with Rick Wakeman and all the guys that also played on the ‘Hunky Dory’ album for Bowie and with Mick Ronson. We did the version of ‘Andy Warhol’ and you can hear in the background, Bowie is on the 12-string and singing backing vocals. Then he liked my version so much that he then decided to do his own version, which came out actually before mine on the ‘Hunky Dory’ album. My album took longer to make because I was in the middle of doing ‘Jesus Christ Superstar’ every night, so I wasn’t always free to be in the studio.
At one point, you appeared on Mick Ronson’s 1974 single ‘Slaughter on 10th Avenue’, from the album of the same name. Is that an example of Mainman pushing you as an artist?
I think it was probably meant to be a double ‘A’ side. I loved Ronno’s playing, he was a marvellous guitarist and he really was able to take the essence of Bowie songs. Then Bowie had never really worked with electric guitars on these type of songs, and it just by adding this ordinary sound the way Ronno played very, very musical - not with lots of distorted guitar and a
million notes a second. He was tasteful and tuneful in how he played. On ‘Weren’t Born A Man’, it’s the first kind of string arrangement he’d ever done. He always wanted to do it, and although Bowie was meant to produce ‘Weren’t Born A Man’ from the start, suddenly his stardom was starting to take of in America. So he didn’t really have the time to do it, so Ronno took over and he was really pleased because it meant that he could be let loose in Trident Studios, which is where we seem to spend weeks and weeks of hanging out in the studio recording.
A lot of people may or may not know that you appeared on the seminal 1972 album ‘The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars’. Am I correct that you did the backing vocals on ‘It Ain’t Easy’?
Yeah. I can’t remember a single thing about it. But you know, I spent so much of my life in studios it’s very hard for me to remember the sessions I did. Somebody asked me the other day, because I did all these recordings in the mid-sixties with Elton John ... In fact, when he was still Reg Dwight and we did these dreadful top 20 hits that were ‘Top of the Pops’ - nothing to do with the TV show. These top 20 hits would come up on an LP, and we did so many of these I can’t remember all the songs I sang on. Somebody asked me because it was myself, Elton, and another singer called David Byron, who was the lead singer in Uriah Heep. I just spent my whole life in studios. I love being in the studio as I made seventy albums, and this is where I feel completely at home.
“Spending time with Dana was very special. She was magical and helped me overcome my shyness, she knew my story before I did” - Elton John. That quote appears on your book and shows in some respects the influence you had on not only Elton John, but other artists at the genesis of their career?
I don’t know. I mean, I thought it was a very generous quote, and I haven’t seen Elton for quite a few years, and I never expected him to reply to it within
twelve hours. He had a quote to put in the book, and I thought ‘good on you’, what a cavalier he is. Also there’s the fact the one piano player that he used to admire was the man who then played for a while with The Animals, but then was in my band for years, Dave Rowberry, sadly dead now. But Rowberry used to play in something called The Mike Cotton Sound, and it was his playing that inspired Elton to really move on and make it his instrument. He has said that, and I thank him for being so generous and nice about other musicians, he is kind like that.
As an actress, you appeared in Hammer Films. Were those a sideline to make ends meet?
Well, the old Hammer Films, a lot of it had to do with my shape - not surgically enhanced, I hasten to add. The fact I was a big girl when I was younger meant I was perfect to play a cave girl falling out of some shammy leather, running round, chasing a pterodactyl, that kind of thing. It was fun, and if I had no gigs at the time, why not go off and do a film. Because you have to learn about camera angles and discipline. Being up at a certain hour and on set. Not that Hammer Films had much in the way of script to learn, it was glorified grunts in some places. I like any experience as long as it’s interesting.
Is it true that Bob Dylan is an admirer of you and your songwriting?
Well, he said he was, and unless he was lying [laughs]. I knew him in the 1965 and ‘66 and then I saw him in New York in the seventies, but then I hadn’t seen for ages until I got a call from his agent saying he wanted me to be the opening act for his British tour, which I think was ‘97 and it was during this tour, or actually it was three days before the tour started happening for ages and he rang up and said ‘I’m coming over to visit you’, which is quite nice. I said, How on Earth did you choose me to be the opening act after all these years?’ He said he had read a
review of one of my Blues albums and started to listen. And then he said, ‘I really like your songwriting’, which is a great honour seeing as I consider him one of the best songwriters that we ever had.
Do you feel the ‘What Memories We Make’ collection (Cherry Red Records) kind of paved the way for your book, and reminded people of your accomplishments back then?
I had already written the book when that came out actually, and the man who published the book had no idea about the Cherry Red box set. So I don’t think it has really paved the way. I think it was just a bit of synchronicity going on which was nice. The reason that the box set came out is because finally DeFries was speaking to people after thirty years of incommunicado as far as I was concerned. He lives now in South Africa. He gave the okay that Cherry Red could put out this box set and then another friend of mine who used to produce Dusty [Springfield] and the Pet Shop Boys, he found the different versions of ‘Andy Warhol’ in some obscure tapes in EMI or somewhere sitting around in a small studio. And so that’s why they are the additional tracks. Then on that box set there are additional tracks from ‘Bowpromo’ [1971]. With Bowie on one side, and me on the other and there were only 500 printed up LPs. I’m told each one is worth a small fortune, I’ve got one that lives under my bed. It was very rare, and so the songs on there that we’re kind of demos that never got to be on the album, but somehow Mainman or whoever it was has found all these tapes gave the ‘okay’ and Cherry Red bought them out and packaged them marvellously.
You are obviously proud of ‘Weren’t Born A Man’ and it is a very engaging work. What was your impression when you saw the finished product?
Well, I’m very pleased with how the book looks, and it’s quite heavy in weight. The content is not particularly heavy, I was trying to keep it quite
lighthearted and in some cases funny [as it is], but it’s quite heavy to pick up or to post. I know because I sent a copy last week to Angie Bowie who lives in Tucson, Arizona. - 400 pages, I think, if I’m not mistaken? Yeah, in fact the publisher, who was also the editor, managed to cut out a hundred pages worth of stories, so I was already thinking ‘whoa, I might have to do a volume two’, but let’s see how it goes.
Has it given you the hunger to do it again and write another book?
Not so much to do a book, because I guess as one gets older what else are you going to do other than tell your stories. Given a choice of going into a studio and doing an album or writing a book, I’d choose the albums any day because I do respond better to music. But if I have some time on my hands ... I mean the beginning of the lockdown was great for me because I got to finish of all the bits to do with the book. But then that had to go to the publisher come editor, but you know, it’s time consuming, and I’d rather look at the view if I’m sitting somewhere nice. It’s quite hard to be disciplined, but you never know. I was disciplined enough to do this. So yeah who knows? I might do it again and when I get my teeth into an idea, I’m like a terrier - I don’t let go until it’s done.
Well, with over sixty albums released, that projects a dynamic and a near workaholic side to you?
I’ve never seen it as work, I’ve seen it as play. Even some of the more ghastly gigs I’ve had in my life. I think I mentioned I did a panto in the book. I said that was the most awful experience of my life doing panto, Cinderella. I think it was soon after ‘[Jesus Christ] Superstar’, and I remember thinking ‘I have sunk as low as I can ever’, it’s so awful. But, you know, in retrospect, you look back at these low times, or tough times, or difficult times and you think, ‘that’s probably when I learned the most’. So I don’t mind about any weird or wonky things that have gone on in my life.
‘Weren’t Born A Man’ is available worldwide from 18th January, and in a hardcover, signed edition from Hawksmoor Publishing.
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Rude GRL & C.C.
Vive Le Rap!
Interview by Alice Jones-Rodgers.
When we connected with Rude GRL and C.C. to conduct the following interview via Zoom, the duo had recently returned from Los Angeles where they were awarded Best Hip-Hop Track for ‘Helen Keller’, taken from the album ‘Anthemic Hip-Hop’, released at the start of 2020. As we head into 2021, the rise and rise of music’s ‘odd couple’, Jenna ‘Rude GRL’ Dickens and Chris ‘C.C.’ Constantinou continues with the release of the hard-hitting EP ‘Like Wow’ on 8th January.
The story of Rude GRL and C.C. is one steeped in musical history and involving the merger of two genres that, whilst at first seemingly have no bearing on each other, have been forever intertwined by their ability to put their point across in a forthright and confrontational manner.
After a spell signed to Ebony Records, C.C.’s early band The Drill (formed in 1977, the year of punk) moved to RCA Records, where they released a string of singles produced by former Animal turned Jimi Hendrix and Slade manager Chas Chandler and supported Slade on a number of occasions. In 1982, C.C. would gain far more notoriety when he was invited to join the newly constructed post-Ants line-up of punk turned pop superstar Adam Ant’s live band as bass guitarist and backing vocalist. He arrived just in time for the tour to accompany that year’s ‘Friend or Foe’ album and also appeared in the video for its third single, ‘Desperate But Not Serious’.
When Adam parred down his eight-piece touring band to the four-piece which featured in the video for ‘Puss ‘n’ Boots’ (‘Strip’, 1983), C.C., under the pseudonym Chris De Niro, became an integral part of the mid-’80s line-up (alongside guitarist Marco Pirroni and drummer “Count” Bogdan Wiczling) who would go on to record the 1985 Tony Visconti-produced album ‘Vive Le Rock’, featuring the classic lead single ‘Apollo 9’. Of course, this period also included a massive amount of television promotion and saw C.C. performing on ‘Top of the Pops’, ‘Saturday Night Live’ and ‘American Bandstand’. However, by far the biggest event that he was involved in was Adam’s performance at Live Aid at Wembley Stadium on 13th July 1985.
After parting with Adam later that year, C.C. formed the Miles Copeland III-managed band SF Go with Tom Robinson Band guitarist Danny Kurstow, whilst in the early to mid-’90s, he formed songwriting partnerships with both Bow Wow Wow’s Annabella Lwin and later Robbie Williams associate Guy Chambers, before giving us the post-punk band Jackie OnAssid, with whom he stepped up to sing lead
vocals, touring Europe three times and supporting Iggy Pop.
In the following decade, he reconvened with Marco to form The Wolfmen, who worked with Lou Reed on the B-side of the 2007 single ‘Cecilie’, a re-imagining of the 1964 pre-Velvet Underground song ‘Do the Ostrich’, originally recorded with The Primitives (nothing to do with the ‘80s band). This era also saw him play bass on The Slits’ 2006 EP ‘Revenge of the Killer Slits’ and co-write two songs on Sinead O’Connor’s 2012 album ‘How About I Be Me (And You Be You)’. In more recent years, he has formed the punk supergroup The Mutants with The Damned’s Rat Scabies and Paul Frazer of Black Futures and Subsource fame and guested with the likes of The Dandy Warhols and Woody Woodmansey’s David Bowie tribute band Holy Holy.
Rude GRL’s story is equally as fascinating. Born in London but raised in a small town in South Wales, she was desperate to escape from a dysfunctional upbringing and the racial abuse, trauma and homophobia that came as a result of being a queer woman of colour.
This escape came in the form of music, and in particular, rapping, her considerable skills for which have been winning her awards since the age of 12. She has since worked with a number of musicians on a whole host of projects, including former La Roux member Ben Langmaid and Basement Jaxx. As part of the outfit The Binary Kids, she appeared on the latter act’s 2009 single ‘Twerk’, from the album ‘Scars’.
On ‘Like Wow’, Rude GRL firmly sticks two fingers up to intolerance, prejudice and hate, whilst giving us an insight into her own very personal struggles with addiction, sexual abuse and recovery, turning her anger into endlessly energetic positivity.
Firstly, hello Jenna and Chris and
thank you for agreeing to our interview, it is lovely to speak to you. Could we start by asking how, when and where the two of you came together to form Rude GRL and C.C.?
Jenna: So, me and Chris ... I started working with Chris when I was like 17. It was really fun [laughs] and then I kind of went on a little bit of a mad one [both Jenna and Chris laugh]. I was basically just like in addiction, having great fun with that, not! And then yeah, Chris one day just randomly text me at like ... I think it was like 3am and he was like ‘Oh, I’m doing this project with Universal [Music Group], it’s like your sort of music, it’s hip hop. Do you want to do some vocals?’ and I was like ‘Hell, fucking yes!’ So, yeah, I just went down there and we just smashed it! We were doing a track a day and in like three hours a track was done and then so Chris was just like ‘Let’s do a band!’ I was like ‘Hell, yes!’
Chris: Yeah, it was quick, you know. I remember the first time I met you [Jenna] was when we were both signed to Sony. Were you signed to Sony? I can’t remember, or were you signed to Warners [Warner Music Group]?
Jenna: I was signed to Mercury / Universal and there was an A&R at Sony who loved you and was like ‘You need to meet Chris!’ and I was like ‘Okay!’
Chris: Alright, yeah, that’s how we met and then they put us together and we started writing and I think I met your old manager and then we had a few wild nights, didn’t we? Or days! And then we just got stuck in really. Yeah, it was a bit of an odd time really because, I don’t know, we seemed to spend a lot of time in clubs drinking and sort of going out and lounging around on sofas. I remember going out to Soho House, up in Shoreditch ...
Jenna: Yeah, Shoreditch House ...
Chris: I’ve got really vivid memories of that time. I won’t say anything,
obviously, but anyway, yeah ...
Your debut EP, ‘Like Wow’ is released on 8th January. Could you tell us a bit about the writing and recording process of the three tracks that make up the release?
Jenna: Yeah, so the writing process for ‘Like Wow’ is quite interesting. The lead single [‘Like Wow’] we wrote in like ten minutes because the train was delayed and Chris was just laying down this awesome riff just for fun. It was just like ‘Oh, ten minutes, let’s just fuck about’ and then, yeah, I just came up with this rap and it was like ‘This is amazing!’ and we just switched it on, recorded it in ten minutes and it was like ‘This is awesome!’ So, that’s how the whole EP started really, from that track and yeah, the other tracks, I’ve always wanted to tell the story of like trauma and addiction and all of that and yeah, we’ve managed to somehow squeeze all of that into the tracks as well. Yeah.
Chris: Yeah, I think we got to the
Chris with Marco Pirroni in The Wolfmen
point where it was starting to develop and Rude GRL was starting to come out with stuff and we got to the point where we could play it safe or we could go all the way there and we just said ‘Let’s just go for it! Let’s just not hold back’. So [laughs] that record’s pretty in your face and we decided to make it a very quick process, so each song would only take three hours to record and write, so instead of messing around, you know, just two guitars, bass guitar, you know, drums, vocals and it goes really quick, one take really and you’ve got it and then we just do the ad-libs and ... it’s really quick. It’s so much more fun that just ages, you know, sitting around and sort of like analysing and going ‘Shall we go for lunch now?’ ... ‘No, go for lunch after, let’s get the songs finished and go out for a drink after!’
In literally everything I have seen, journalists are describing this collaboration as “an unlikely partnership”, but your two musical backgrounds aren’t really that disparate, with the punk era in which
you have often been associated with, Chris (having worked with Adam Ant, The Slits and amongst others, The Damned’s Rat Scabies in The Mutants) and the hip-hop genre that you emerged from Jenna being very much intertwined by the way in which both talk about hard hitting subjects in a confrontational manner. How much admiration did you each have for the genres of music the other is usually associated with prior to working together?
Jenna: That’s a good question! To be honest, like, I love rap and I love like the skill set behind it and I’ve got loads of rappers that I love, but my main passion is like punk and I grew up listening to a lot of punk and post-punk and heavy metal and it’s funny because Adam and the Ants is like one of the bands that I really loved growing up as well. I always loved that type of music and I feel like that’s kind of what I like to do with rapping. I usually like rappers who are like a bit less rap and more punk. I really love that, like grime and stuff like that, and that whole
With Rat Scabies in The Mutants
energy of just do it yourself; like the system’s failed us, fuck it and we’re going to go out there and do what we want and that’s very punk I think.
Chris: Yeah, I think, coming from a bass player background, I’ve always been into sort of roots music, dub music, reggae, ska, you know, more so than rock music. I was not a fan of rock music, so anything that is kind of like ... I don’t know if this makes any sense at all, but ... stuff that has roots music. So, punk, for me, there can be bands that have just got this rootsy-style. Like Rat Scabies, who I play with, from The Damned. When he plays drums, he’s not like a rock drummer, it’s like there’s a roots element, it’s musical. Now, that’s a weird thing to say, isn’t it? But, also the guy in the Sex Pistols, Paul Cook, same thing! When he hits the drums, it’s musical. So, it’s kind of like, for me, the groove side of things is very important and so hip-hop is just sort of a natural extension to me. You know, I guess Public Image [Ltd] started off doing those grooves, but I think it was
there in the punk days. There were a lot of bands who did have good grooves and stuff like that. But, hip-hop, for me ... I don’t know, when I hear it, if I like it, I like it and it’s the same as what Jenna said, you know, if the attitude’s right and I dig what the person’s saying and it feels real and not pretentious, then I can get into it, you know.
‘Like Wow’ comes on the back of you winning Best Hip-Hop track at the PMA Mark awards 2020 for the track ‘Helen Keller’ (‘Anthemic Hip-Hop’, 2020). Could you tell us a bit about this winning track and did winning the award come as a surprise to you both?
Jenna: Yeah, that track we wrote as part of the album that was the first project that we worked on together again and yeah, that track, we just had a lot of fun really, you know what I mean? It’s about hustling and just doing it for the love and just having a lot of fun with it. And yeah, it definitely came as a surprise to me [both Jenna and Chris laugh], which is quite funny because Chris was like, ‘Yeah, I knew we were going to win it!’ He was cool, but the whole time I was just like ‘Wow, we’ve been nominated! That’s great!’ and I really didn’t expect us to win. So, when we did, I was literally like bouncing around the house for like a whole week! [laughs].
Chris: I think it was like such a wild card, because the other acts were like real hip-hop ... you know ... and the thing we were doing, ‘Anthemic Hip-Hop’ was slightly different in the sense that it wasn’t pure hip hop. I guess it had a little bit of Afro-Cuban and a little bit of a Spanish feel to it and, you know, I have to be truthful and I know it sounds conceited, doesn’t it, but I did think we’d win [Jenna laughs]. But it isn’t because I thought ‘Oh, we’re so great, we’re just so brilliant!’, it was just that I had a feeling that we would win. And I know that you’re not supposed to say that and you’re supposed to go ‘Oh no’, you know. But, no, I’m happy that we won anyway, so yeah, it was great! [laughs].
Bunni Moretto
It is good that you have that belief in your own music!
Jenna: He’s got enough belief for the both us! [Chris laughs].
We believe that Rude GRL and C.C. also has a third member, Bunni Moretto. Could you introduce us to Bunni and what is her role within the band?
Jenna: Bunni Moretto is a twerk extraordinaire. She does everything ... she does the splits, she twerks, she’s an award-winning burlesque artist, she was the first black finalist of Miss Burlesque UK in 2018 and she’s an actress as well. She’s been in the West End; just last year she was in the West End. Yeah, she’s really cool. She’s like the visual element of the band really. Our live performances are going to be fucking lit because whenever she performs, the crowd is just like in awe of her and her booty! [laughs]. She does backing vocals for us as well. Yeah.
Bunni (far right) in the video for ‘Like Wow’
Chris: Is Bunni not around?
Jenna: No, she was living the life of luxury having a sleep and now she’s out getting a massage [laughs].
Chris: No, Bunni’s great, Bunni’s really good. It’s like ... did you ever hear of a band called Hawkwind? [I reply, “Yes, I know Hawkwind”]. Well, do you remember that they had Stacia, who used to dance? And I’ve got to say, I loved it and also, I love it when bands go on stage and something different happens and there’s this guy called Mike Heron [The Incredible String Band]. Well, he had a guy in the band who just used to do ballet and this guy just looked the coolest guy you could ever see and he played a little bit of tambourine every now and then and did some backing vocals, but the rest of the time he was doing this sort of amazing ballet and I was like, ‘This is the weirdest thing I have ever seen!’ Then you’ve got the Happy Mondays, haven’t you? With Bez and that was great, wasn’t it?
I tell Chris that him saying about Mike Heron’s ballet dancer just reminded me of The Fall working with dancer and choreographer Michael Clark on ‘I Am Curious, Orange’ in 1988, which I first saw at university in the late ‘90s / early 2000s. After asking about my university days at Manchester
Metropolitan, Chris continues: I didn’t get a chance to go to university, I went to the university of rock instead! Sleeping in vans and playing at Live Aid! [laughs]. But no, that was my university course! It’s weird because a lot of my friends went to university and I thought, ‘I’d really like to have gone to university and they were going ‘Oh, you’re lucky because you’re out playing bands and stuff’.
Well, yeah, you were already out there doing it, weren’t you?
Jenna: Yeah, I hear that. I’ve just got to uni now! I’m doing music production and sound engineering. That’s good because it’s helping me with doing what we’re doing now, do you know what I mean? I’m not all over the place now, so I can kind of like actually do it [laughs], which is good!
Chris: It’s really handy, isn’t it? It’s great!
Jenna: Yeah!
Chris, under the pseudonym Chris De Niro, you joined Adam Ant’s live band as bass guitarist in 1982, in time for the accompanying tour for that year’s ‘Friend or Foe’ album and appeared in the video for the third single to be lifted from it, ‘Desperate But Not Serious’, before going on to become an integral part of the mid-’80s line-up of the Adam Ant band, most notably being part of the recording of the 1985 Tony Visconti produced album ‘Vive Le Rock’. How did you come to join the band and what are your memories of recording the ‘Vive Le Rock’ album?
Chris: Ooh! Right, I was playing in a band that was signed to RCA Records [The Drill] and we had Chas Chandler
[manager], who managed Jimi Hendrix and he was managing Slade, and basically, we put out loads of singles and we were touring up and down the motorway. You know, we were supporting Slade, and one of the guys in the band joined Dire Straits, the guitarist, Hal Lindes. Yeah, the blonde guy, the surfer dude. He joined Dire Straits and I was sitting in Hendon, where we used to rehearse in this basement, and I thought, ‘oh, I can’t take this anymore!’ I was 23 years old and I was thinking, ‘it’s the end’ and I was thinking, ‘I really am now a failure!’ I was 23 years old and I was signed to this record company and I thought, ‘we’ve just put release after release out and we’re going up and down the motorway, he’s just joined Dire Straits and now look at me! I’m here in Hendon in the basement! My life is over!’ And I thought, ‘right!’ So, next day, there was a copy of the NME and it has ‘Bass player wanted! Must be able to stand and deliver!’ So, it was obvious who it was, so I phoned up and they said, ‘No, we’re sick of seeing bass players, we’ve auditioned ...’ It was to replace Gary Tibbs. And I said, ‘Okay’, you know. And I have a friend who works at CBS, who Adam was signed to and my friend got me an audition. So, I went there in a pink suit, I wore that and I thought, ‘they’re going to remember me!’ And I went in there and I kind of like had this thing where I thought ‘this job is mine!’ And I remember that I had two weeks to get ready for it and I learned all the back catalogue, I went running every night and I was so determined and I was like banging on the wall going ‘this job’s mine! This job’s mine! This job’s mine!’ like a nutter! So, I went in there and by the time I got in there I was obviously convinced the job was mine, did the audition and Adam was like following me out and I knew he was interested because of the way he was following me out and talking to me and asking me questions and stuff. And then I got a phone call from him and he said, ‘Do you want to go on a world tour? Meet me in Tootsies for breakfast tomorrow in Holland Park’. Met up with him and his manager was there, they gave me a load of cash, and then
put me on a wage and then we went off on tour and we travelled all over the world. And so then we got to the stage of ‘Vive Le Rock’, making the album with Tony Visconti. It was sort of like a very quick process because Tony Visconti was in ... I think it’s a public thing, I don’t think it’s any secret, but he was in a positive thinking sort of thing. It used to be called ‘S’ and then it became something else. So, the whole studio was like an odd atmosphere. It was sort of like we were robots and we’d sort of go down there and it was between 11[am] and 7[pm] we were working, so you’d start dead on eleven o’clock ... You’d go down there; Tony would be there and then Adam turned up late on the first day and it didn’t go down well! Tony called him into this room, we heard all this shouting going on and Adam came out white-faced and said ‘I’ve never been spoken to like that! I’m only like ten minutes late!’ And then, so yeah, one o’clock was lunchtime, then we finished bang on seven. But it worked great! We recorded the whole album really quickly, then we did ‘B-Side Baby’ [B-side of ‘Apollo 9’] and stuff [the B-sides from this era are compiled on the 1994 compilation ‘B-side Babies’]. It was easy and a fun process.
As you were saying, previously, from 1977, you had been in the band The Drill, who were signed to RCA Records and released a number of singles produced by Chas Chandler. Chas Chandler of course managed Slade, whom we interviewed for our Christmas issue. We believe that The Drill opened for Slade on a number of occasions. What are your memories of being on the road with Slade?
Chris: Ooh! [laughs] It was fun! Well, they were kind of like our big brothers! Because they had such a good sense of humour and they used to take the piss out of us, you know, because they knew that we were kind of like kids. We’d been doing these really shit gigs and supporting bands not of that stature and so when we went on tour with them, they enjoyed seeing us ... and at the end
of the gigs there would be all the girls backstage and all the parties, you know, and we’d be just standing there, sort of, you know, in the next dressing room, the support band’s dressing room, and they’d say ‘Come on lads, come and join in the party!’ They were really cool and we had so much fun and yeah, they looked after us. I just remember them always being around when we used to record in that studio, IPC Studios in Portland Place. We recorded there and I think Chas owned it and Slade used to come in and take us to the pub. We’d be all drinking in there and sort of, you know, they’d be just making fun of us and then we went to Dudley and they took us to their pub in Dudley. They were great, they were really good and we played in Hull one night and it was snowing and we sort of finished a gig and we just thought we’d get drunk and, you know, hang out there and we came back and the van doors were open and all our equipment had been stolen [laughs], including the key for the bed and breakfast where we were staying! The night key! So, we had to wake up the landlady and she let us in and I remember we had one of those electric fires but with just one bar in, so we were all just huddled round it going ‘What are we going to do now? We’ve got no gear!’ So, anyway, we had a publisher who bought us some new gear. But anyway, it was fun! Playing with Slade was fun and you know, they’re a really good band.
Chris performing at Live Aid with Adam Ant
In 1985, you appeared with Adam at Live Aid, where, reportedly due to The Boomtown Rats’ set running over, you were restricted to playing just one song, ‘Vive Le Rock’. Adam has gone on to describe Live Aid as a “mistake” and “a waste of time”, but what are your memories of appearing at the event and what are your feelings about it all these years later?
Chris: Well, I just had it down as a charity gig. It was just down in my diary as a charity gig, because no one told me what it was really. I think Marco came and told me, ‘Oh, we’ve got a charity gig next week’, so I put it down in my book as a charity gig and
that was it really, so I kind of like didn’t think anything about it really. And then we up to Wembley to do the soundcheck and I went up on the back of Danny Kurstow’s motorbike, he was playing in the Tom Robinson Band at the time. He was a mate of mine so he gave me a lift up and we did the soundcheck. I think it was Queen, Status Quo and a few other bands doing the soundcheck and then the next day, we were on quite early I think, so we got up there and everybody was walking backstage, you know, like Elton John and everybody. It just felt like a normal sort of ... because I’d been doing it a long time and I was used to being around people who were well-known. It didn’t feel like anything different, until I went on the stage and the heat of the audience hit me and I thought, ‘Oh my God, I’m doing something special’ and then it didn’t really occur to me until the next day how big a gig it was. And I think the thing about the one song, I never knew anything about the politics about it, it didn’t make any difference. You know, I was a bass player and I was in the band; I wasn’t interested in the politics of this and this and that, I just wanted to have fun. And memories now? Looking back on it, I just wish I could have appreciated the moment more. I think I was pretty out of touch with myself, you know, my feelings. I was just into having too much of a good time. Maybe that was a good thing, I don’t know, but I didn’t really think ‘oh, this is amazing! This is great!’ I wish I’d kind of savoured the moment more, but that’s easy to say, isn’t it, in retrospect?
Jenna, your background in the music industry is equally as fascinating, but how did you first come to start making music and could you give us an insight into your career so far and some of your proudest achievements?
Jenna: So, I got into music when I was like eleven. Basically, I grew up in a little town in South Wales and it was quite racist and there was a lot of stuff going on at home and so music was a good escape for me to just kind of get out all of that anger and built up
frustration in kind of like a more healthy way. And yeah, I ended up doing like a bunch of gigs and stuff when I was eleven and then randomly, I got put into [BBC] 1Xtra’s Battle of the Nations when I was twelve years old. So, I was against all these men and then there was just like little twelve-year-old me! I came first in Wales and I came third for our country. So, that was really fun and from there on, I was just doing loads of gigs. I was literally like going from school and doing loads of gigs at night and thinking ‘this is amazing!’ You know, getting like £100 and £150! It was so cool! It was amazing and at like twelve years old, I thought it was like the best thing ever! And then, basically, I was just touring and then I got signed when I was 17 and I was working with all the grime people, like Wiley and people, and from there on, I ended up working with some cool pop people, like Ben from La Roux and Nick Hodgson from the Kaiser Chiefs. And yeah, I was just like putting some stuff out under [the name] JLD and just kind of having a good time. Worked with some cool people like Basement Jaxx and stuff like that, but yeah, now I’m working with the coolest person ever which is Chris!
Chris: Aaw, that’s so sweet of you! [both Chris and Jenna laugh]. I don’t know about sweet, but that’s nice of you! [laughs].
Your 2017 single ‘The Way It Is (Survival of the Sickest)’ featured an interpolation of Run-D.M.C.’s 1984 hit ‘It’s Like That’ (‘Run-D.M.C’). From this, can we gather that this period of hip-hop is the biggest inspiration on your work and which other artists would you consider to have informed your work?
Jenna: Yeah, that song was arranged with Ben from La Roux. I really do like that period of hip hop, like I prefer the older kind of hip hop, the old school kind of rap, but to be honest, my main genre of music that I love is like punk really, post-punk and heavy metal. I’m more into rock than I am rap. I love rap, do you know what I
The Binary Kids
mean? I love the skill behind it, the lyrics the clothes, but to just listen to music, I just love rock music and that’s pretty much like my biggest inspiration really.
As part of the outfit The Binary Kids, you had substantial backing from Basement Jaxx and appeared on the single ‘Twerk’ from the 2009 album ‘Scars’. How important were Basement Jaxx in getting you known in the music industry and what are your memories of guesting with them?
Jenna: That was so fun! That’s so cool that you know that! [laughs]. Me and KC from Binary Kids, we just met at some really random shit gig that we were both doing in Newport in Wales and it was funny because I’d never come across another girl that rapped in that town [laughs] and she was just doing her thing and I was like ‘Oh my gosh, what?! This is great!’ and I went up after her and she was like ‘Woah, mate, this is great!’ So, we just went into the studio and made all this fun stuff. It wasn’t really thinking like ‘this is it, we’re going to be the greatest band in the world’, we were just having a load of fun and thinking ‘this is great, you get free clothes and like you can drink and party all the time and have fun!’ [laughs]. Yeah, with Basement Jaxx, we went in the studio with them and they’re just like actual geniuses, they’re just like on another level. I don’t know how they come up with the stuff that they do, they’re just so cool. Yeah, that was such a fun session. They’re brilliant guys, they’re really nice and yeah, I just remember it being really fun. And I was kind of fan-girling because I used to love listening to Basement Jaxx, so I was kind of half working and half being like ‘wow!’
What does 2021 and beyond hold for Rude GRL and C.C., either collectively or separately and can we expect another album from this project any time soon?
Chris: Yeah, we’re recording our second album now and we’re also
doing another project for Universal in January, which Jenna can tell you more about. So, basically, the second album’s underway and then we’ve got a project that we’re doing for Universal and we’ve also had a load of remixes done of some of the tracks, which that guy from Kaiser Chiefs has done and we’ve got some other guys doing remixes of tracks. So, the album will be out, I don’t know, I guess at some point in early New Year. Then some live shows, once it opens up again. I don’t know when it will, but some live shows, we’ve got some fun photograph and video stuff coming up and yeah, just sort of getting out there and doing it. It’s exciting! I mean, it’s really exciting for me because Jenna’s obviously from a different era, but we seem to sort of just click and we’ve got similar backgrounds in some ways and the music just clicks ... it’s easy, it’s fun and for me, it has to be fun or I don’t like doing it and it has to be quick as well! [both Chris and Jenna laugh].
Jenna: The Universal project, I’m really looking forward to doing that.
Chris and Jenna win at the PMA Mark Awards
It’s like a woman empowerment project. Yeah, it’s fun! We’ve already started, we’ve got two songs so far, one of them I’m really excited about. And we’ve got a track coming out with Cleopatra Records in L.A. in January too, so I’m so excited about next year. I just can’t wait to get out and perform live!
Thank you for a wonderful interview and we wish you both all the best for 2021 and for the future.
‘Like Wow’ is released on 8th January through Firefly Entertainment.
