A View from the Shore
A Conversation with JoDe Goudy and A Matter of Spirit editor Emily Sanna (full version)
JoDe Goudy is a former chairman of the Yakima Tribal Council and the founder and owner of Redthought, a Native-led organization that seeks to educate and advocate around the legacy of the doctrine of Christian discovery. A Matter of Spirit editor Emily Sanna spoke to Goudy about movements for land justice and the enduring legacy of the doctrine of Christian discovery.
When we talk about Indigenous sovereignty, what does that mean and what does that look like?
You have to be careful with the words you utilize: Oftentimes words like Indigenous and sovereignty are accepted as positive. But I always tell people, “Don’t call me Indigenous” because of the etymology and the forums by which certain entities and organizations use the word.
Most people are aware of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. The UN defines the word Indigenous as a people whose land was taken by other people. It means a conquered person. Sovereignty is another unique word when you look at the etymology. For the most part, it is interpreted as a positive term. But when you attach the word to its political and legal history, sovereignty is actually a euphemism for or a different way of saying “dominated.” So, I’m not Indigenous and I’m not really sovereign.
Steve Newcomb is a Shawnee-Lenape scholar who has been studying and writing about the ways a system of domination has manifested and sustained itself throughout time. He has always helped me remain extremely mindful of what type of words I utilize to communicate. Instead of Indigenous, he prefers the term Original Free Nations. This term reflects how our peoples collectively existed from 1491 going back in time to our creation. This perspective is quite different than the narrative that so-called “discovery” happened, all these visitors arrived, and then all of a sudden we’re in today’s time.
It's easy for people to attach themselves to expressions or words without delving deeper into what exactly they are saying. I just ask any of your readers to be mindful that if you use a word to identify someone, you should take it upon yourself to understand the meaning of the words you are using.
That’s a challenge for everybody. Most Native people, Original Free Nations, or Indigenous people whatever name they go by feel that being “Indigenous” is an honorable thing. If someone says they want to uphold their sovereignty, they say, “Well, that’s valid and I appreciate that.” But the work I do delves into the details and nuances with regard to how reality manifests through thoughts and language.
It's both really challenging and important to recognize that this history of European colonization is so wrapped up in even the very well-meaning language we use to talk about land justice. This brings me to your next question, which is that you mentioned the doctrine of Christian discovery. Can you define what that is?
The doctrine of Christian discovery can be dated back to 15th- and 16th-century popes who issued specific papal bulls or edicts that were, I guess you could say, the holy marching orders to justify the so-called “discovery” that was happening throughout the world.
These edicts included some very detrimental and terrible language regarding European people’s rights to invade, conquer, diminish, and subdue lands that were deemed “new” or, as they specifically list in the edicts, not ruled by any Christian prince.
Even though our ancestors lived on the land, and various Native and Original Free Nations existed in every part of the world where these acts of discovery had happened, these edicts justified their conquest by deeming them to be heathens, infidels, and subhuman because they were not Christian. There was this holy justification for exerting these acts of discovery.
The founding fathers were well aware of this type of thought when they wrote the Declaration of Independence and formed the United States. And in 1823, the Supreme Court took it upon itself to enshrine this doctrine into U.S. law. There was a dispute over who had ultimate jurisdiction over land that might be considered as belonging to the Original Free Nations. Justice John Marshall essentially said that the United States had inherited the doctrine of Christian discovery as a holy right to exert dominion upon all lands.
It’s easy to look back today and say, “OK, did that really happen?” The first time I read it, I thought it was fake or some sort of mock case. But this case is reality, and it is the foundation of property law in the United States. It also becomes the foundation of what is identified as federal Indian law. This system of domination used by the Roman Catholic Church centuries ago to justify their dominion is still being used by the U.S. Supreme Court today. This is the legal foundation from which the United States has continuously asserted its claimed right of domination over all the land, territories, waters, animals, plants, and those they deem to be heathens and infidels. It’s never been overturned: The United States still identifies myself and all other Original Free Nations people as heathens, as infidels.
I would encourage your readers to seek out and learn about the doctrine of Christian discovery from other Original Free Nations people: Our uniqueness is that our viewpoint is from the shore. I am standing next to my ancestors in 1491, looking at the ships coming
toward us, as I understand the totality of the impact this way of thought has had. Others who try to identify the doctrine of Christian discovery are on the ships.
You mentioned your advocacy work. Can you talk a little bit about what that looks like for you?
I’ve always been an advocate of our people, our ways of life, and our physical, mental, and spiritual well-being and tried to manifest more right and respectful outcomes in our relationship with the natural world. I served as an elected official for the Yakama Nation for a few years.
Then I became aware of all the work surrounding awareness of the doctrine of Christian discovery and advocated with our council to help all our membership become aware of this history and what to do about it.
I believe that understanding the legacy of the doctrine of Christian discovery is one of the most foundational issues when it comes to fighting the good fight. It implicates everybody every Christian, every Muslim, every Original Free Nations person. This system continues to manifest in detrimental outcomes that affect the overall world.
This issue is very important, but I also have my own foundational relationship with the Creator, which is grounded in my traditional and ceremonial following of my people’s way of life. And because I carry this foundation, in my advocacy I try to do my work in a spirit of love and light and to advocate free, independent, and coherent thought.
When I left the Council, I asked myself where I could have a right and respectful discussion grounded in integrity. I didn’t know anywhere in this world I could do that. That’s one of the reasons why I founded Redthought. Redthought is a forum where Native and Original Free Nations people do historical analysis on the doctrine of Christian discovery and highlight points in time throughout history to peel back the layers that make it hard for people to see that this is a system of domination.
We have also taken on current controversies surrounding Native issues in the advocacy of the natural world or around our ability to live our way of life. We’ve also looked at other forums, such as the United Nations, and how the doctrine of Christian discovery shows up in these systems. We’ve analyzed the Catholic Church and Pope Francis’ interactions with the First Nations in Canada.
What do you want Catholics to know about the legacy of the doctrine of Christian discovery?
I actually interacted with Pope Francis myself as part of a delegation in 2016; I called out the history of the doctrines of Christian discovery and asked the pope and Vatican to formally and ceremonially revoke the historical documents in question. And, of course,
last year the Vatican did release a two-page statement repudiating the doctrines of discovery. But a repudiation and words are one thing; we still have the foundational documents by which nations manifest their continued claims to domination. The collective expression from the Vatican has been a song and dance of smoke and mirrors.
Obviously, it’s very complicated. But at the end of the day, it’s also very simple: How in the name of Jesus Christ can you advocate for this type of system? How can Christians allow it to exist? If you weren’t aware that it existed, but now you have learned, how can you do nothing about it? Those are my questions to every Christian who becomes aware of this history leading up to our present moment.
In my work, we try to use the context of right and respectful relations to talk about this type of advocacy. We ask people simple questions of identity that perhaps have very complicated answers: Who are you? Where do you come from? Where are you going? What is? What isn’t? And why?
We utilize these questions as tools to have people become aware of their identity and then hopefully guide them to engage in respectful conversations with others. Because when we talk about the doctrine of Christian discovery, we’re not talking about something small. If you interpret it from the perspective of myself and others standing next to our ancestors on the shore, we are looking at the greatest system of domination that’s every existed in the known history of humanity not only the domination of Original Free Nations throughout the world, but of the natural world as well. The only way you can even begin to think about this is if integrity is guiding you, if the intent is to build right and respectful relations.
Very few members of society, no matter who they are, what faith they are, what type of life they have, agree with how the doctrine of Christian discovery has become so interwoven with our laws and practices today.
I hear you saying that this isn’t just a matter of legal advocacy—it’s a spiritual issue that reflects your relationship with God and creation. Do you think Catholics often recognize how much these are intertwined?
We all generally understand that there’s a significant amount of darkness in the world’s history. But when you bring that awareness forward, it can challenge people’s understanding of practical reality. People can have a trauma response—where they either want to fight against the truth, run from it, or shut down. When this history affects the foundational questions of your identity, then it can become hard to navigate through it, to develop a right and respectful relationship with yourself.
When I asked my Christian brothers and sisters that first question “Who are you?” they often tell me something like, “I am a child of God.” That’s beautiful. When they ask me the
same question, my answer is, “I am of creation.” That becomes the foundation for how we identify with one another.
If you identify yourself as a child of God, what are the divine instructions that can give you guidance for how to navigate the pathway of this history how your identity has been, whether knowingly or unknowingly, attached to this history? How can your relationship with God help you figure out what to do about the legacy of this system of domination now that you know about it?
This is one of the biggest challenges for the future figuring out where to go from here. We don’t have a playbook to look for that somehow teaches humanity how to overcome the greatest system of domination that’s ever existed and create something better. We literally have to develop the thoughts and outcomes through communication and navigating these issues ourselves. And that requires acting with integrity and in the pursuit of right and respectful relationships. If we start doing that in smaller groups and then larger groups, we create points of reference for other individuals.
If other Christians become aware of the ongoing work, hopefully this creates a foundational base that become a beacon, continually expressing to other Christians the right and respectful way to navigate this legacy.
For myself, who sees myself as belonging to creation, no matter how I express myself to anyone else in the world, the Creator is watching me and understanding everything that’s happening, every thought, every justification I make for every decision that affects how my life continues to go forward in time. For those of us who see ourselves as children of God, this is similar. And if this is true, what is true integrity? What do right and respectful outcomes look like?
If we want a better future, we have to answer these questions. Because they affect not just Native or Original Free Nations people who are still struggling to exist today; they affect everyone, of all walks of life, all backgrounds, all faiths. If we don’t correct this, then our future generations and sustained existence is going to face some very great challenges. If society wants a preview of what’s coming for everybody, take a look at the Native nations and what we have endured. Everyone will be affected; we are just further along in interacting with this system.
Is there anything else you want to make sure our readers know about the legacy of the doctrine of Christian discovery and how to work toward a more just paradigm?
I’ve worked with faith groups and churches where the reaction has kind of been, “Thank you very much for bringing this to our attention. We’ve got it from here. This is ours to fix. Oh, and by the way, it’s time for you to heal, so you have our permission to do that. Thank you.”
This reaction is very disheartening and disrespectful. And so, if there are Catholic groups that begin to take proactive steps in the spirit of right and respectful relations, such a mindset does a great disserve to the spiritual, physical, and mental well-being of our people. The Native nations are the collective original victims of this system of domination, and we need to be part of the ongoing conversations about identity formation. I would ask that there be a pathway toward fixing this ongoing system of domination that begins with righting the extremely wrong and disrespectful relationship between the United States and Native nations.
We never say that a relationship is over. People ask me where all this work is going. And there are points of reference that people might try to identify as destinations, but the work is the journey. The journey is the work. The continued pursuit of identifying what is right and respectful and then manifesting this into the physical world is the work.
An edited version with photos included in the summer 2024 edition of A Matter of Spirit, produced by Intercommunity Peace & Justice Center: https://ipjc.org/a-matter-of-spirit/